The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price about a whole range of things and getting a deeper understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who she is as a person. So welcome back.

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price about a whole range of things and getting a deeper understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who she is as a person. So welcome back.

Thank you.

Thank you.

As I said in part one, I'm trying to find easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah, I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones, but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going to ask you another question. If things go your way in the next federal election that is coming up this year, I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister, big question here, what positive impact do you think you're going to have for Aboriginal people in this country?

As I said in part one, I'm trying to find easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah, I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones, but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going to ask you another question. If things go your way in the next federal election that is coming up this year, I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister, big question here, what positive impact do you think you're going to have for Aboriginal people in this country?

That is a big question. H Well, I think we need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations. I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need to be able to do that. What positive things? As I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet, but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've always believed that we've got the structures in place to support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify where it is being effective, to identify where there needs to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we need to apply penalties so that you know, things like fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know, a government less government in people's lives is better than more government, which is a coalition, which is a value of those of us from the coalition. So if we can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the sorts of things that I would look to establish more firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are, And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities, and they would be part of that priority. But I'm also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of research that I've done previously, is that much of our most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all are those whose first language is not English, who live in experience the highest rates of DV in our country. And I mean my mother was a woman whose first language is not English. English like a third language to her and education was for her was her ticket to freedom in her life, and that to me is an absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education, particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers, but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting their education they need to succeed in life, and I think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard. Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So you know, it's taking a look at all of those things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating those failures.

That is a big question. H Well, I think we need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations. I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need to be able to do that. What positive things? As I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet, but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've always believed that we've got the structures in place to support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify where it is being effective, to identify where there needs to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we need to apply penalties so that you know, things like fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know, a government less government in people's lives is better than more government, which is a coalition, which is a value of those of us from the coalition. So if we can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the sorts of things that I would look to establish more firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are, And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities, and they would be part of that priority. But I'm also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of research that I've done previously, is that much of our most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all are those whose first language is not English, who live in experience the highest rates of DV in our country. And I mean my mother was a woman whose first language is not English. English like a third language to her and education was for her was her ticket to freedom in her life, and that to me is an absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education, particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers, but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting their education they need to succeed in life, and I think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard. Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So you know, it's taking a look at all of those things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating those failures.

Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual. Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can they co exist?

Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual. Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can they co exist?

Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when it's come to the migrant community, many of the members of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and their language at home and they come to school and share those sorts of things. But they are able to lead successful lives and that's what I want to see a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand. You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector. I've had a history of working in the art so I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board, whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example of being able to do that as well. Where that can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to discount one for the other.

Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when it's come to the migrant community, many of the members of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and their language at home and they come to school and share those sorts of things. But they are able to lead successful lives and that's what I want to see a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand. You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector. I've had a history of working in the art so I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board, whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example of being able to do that as well. Where that can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to discount one for the other.

Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's.

Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's.

No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture. Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards.

No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture. Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards.

Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry that the money spent, and you said you want if you got in the power and looking at where that money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to the people that need the money. What just explain how you would do that and en sure that money spent on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah.

Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry that the money spent, and you said you want if you got in the power and looking at where that money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to the people that need the money. What just explain how you would do that and en sure that money spent on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah.

Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them, and identifying where the successes are so they can be invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would we want to continue to invest in something that isn't working for example? And I guess understanding where something might be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well. It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance. I think governance is a huge area that needs to be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know, those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and that sort of thing. But you know, is that is that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example, you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's been men who have been have a history of DV perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that people who have had significant violent criminal history should in fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important at looking at going forward.

Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them, and identifying where the successes are so they can be invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would we want to continue to invest in something that isn't working for example? And I guess understanding where something might be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well. It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance. I think governance is a huge area that needs to be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know, those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and that sort of thing. But you know, is that is that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example, you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's been men who have been have a history of DV perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that people who have had significant violent criminal history should in fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important at looking at going forward.

And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with the values of a position of power, and if they've made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture.

And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with the values of a position of power, and if they've made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space, which is why I would seek to lift those standards.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space, which is why I would seek to lift those standards.

Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you, welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country.

Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you, welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country.

So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in terms of what we've identified the spend has been in terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term actually a bit more than that, because I think the Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent. And I think in these circumstances it should be used for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because now it's something that's established, then it should be used for much more important events. But I don't know. I don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on your way into that person's country to pass through that country. We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're part of a country that involves a whole raft of Australians and so and I think it's important that we move forward as a country together without separating us along racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become, you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we don't really know what their true intentions are. They could stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes, or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes at the same time. And I just don't think in the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority. Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in this space. And in many ways, I guess when it comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that culture that I've been trying to break free from that my mother's been trying to break free from that. We shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to be I don't want to be part of that. I don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice. We live in a Western democracy.

So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in terms of what we've identified the spend has been in terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term actually a bit more than that, because I think the Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent. And I think in these circumstances it should be used for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because now it's something that's established, then it should be used for much more important events. But I don't know. I don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on your way into that person's country to pass through that country. We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're part of a country that involves a whole raft of Australians and so and I think it's important that we move forward as a country together without separating us along racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become, you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we don't really know what their true intentions are. They could stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes, or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes at the same time. And I just don't think in the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority. Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in this space. And in many ways, I guess when it comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that culture that I've been trying to break free from that my mother's been trying to break free from that. We shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to be I don't want to be part of that. I don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice. We live in a Western democracy.

Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome to Country, and I take on board the stuff that you say, and I agree with it in part. I've watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally, I can't speak just like you can't speak for all Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But it's given me a sense of it's made me aware of your culture in part. And I take on board what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned up and there was no one here, and so that was the history. I was fed, and then to have this welcome to country when it's done right, and that for the right type of event. You can't have a welcome to country every time you walk past someone on the street. It did sort of make me just a little bit aware and reflect on what the history of this country has been. So I think there was some education there. So, you know, from my point of view, I'm happy to see that the right at the right event significant event. I get a little bit confused when you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about? So I know that's you coming out and saying that would polarize the people.

Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome to Country, and I take on board the stuff that you say, and I agree with it in part. I've watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally, I can't speak just like you can't speak for all Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But it's given me a sense of it's made me aware of your culture in part. And I take on board what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned up and there was no one here, and so that was the history. I was fed, and then to have this welcome to country when it's done right, and that for the right type of event. You can't have a welcome to country every time you walk past someone on the street. It did sort of make me just a little bit aware and reflect on what the history of this country has been. So I think there was some education there. So, you know, from my point of view, I'm happy to see that the right at the right event significant event. I get a little bit confused when you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about? So I know that's you coming out and saying that would polarize the people.

Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people. And I also know that there are some Indigenous people that come to me to say, look, they feel they cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that. They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous person in the room, like pay my respects to all Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why, we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else. And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else. So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know, and I know some young people who feel a little bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with just being a student with everybody else, without their racial identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of. And if you have a different perspective, then you should be able to have that perspective as well. Look in terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher, you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's a school teacher and history is so important for us all and as a country. I don't think we have necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history, and we do need to learn the good, the bad, the ugly in order to understand I think how far forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that as well. I don't think we need to look at it as though, you know, individuals in our history as are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes, Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors of what occurred there so as not to repeat it. You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars, So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel guilty for being a white kid in this country. A little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel like they are a victim without agency and are powerless to be whatever they want to be when they grow up either in this country. But and you know, history and the way we we we you know, our education system is and the way we viewer one another and accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely. You know, we talk about in our country, we had the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight and my grandfather was a young and at the time, and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and you know how it all began and who was involved in killing our family, and we held a seventy five year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed our family to that to say, look, we recognize that there was these were really tough times in our country's history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And that to me was an act of forgiveness that took place which I don't believe, which I believe we need more of in order to progress forward as a country. You know, we we we you know, we have experienced the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting. It can be totally empowering and and it can lead to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's so much involved in all of that that I think sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly, but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody or toward anything other than understanding who we are as a country and how not to repeat the failures of our past, and to understand just how far we've come as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community, whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of his land and brought here in chains as a convict at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these are the human stories. We are all human.

Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people. And I also know that there are some Indigenous people that come to me to say, look, they feel they cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that. They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous person in the room, like pay my respects to all Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why, we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else. And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else. So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know, and I know some young people who feel a little bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with just being a student with everybody else, without their racial identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of. And if you have a different perspective, then you should be able to have that perspective as well. Look in terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher, you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's a school teacher and history is so important for us all and as a country. I don't think we have necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history, and we do need to learn the good, the bad, the ugly in order to understand I think how far forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that as well. I don't think we need to look at it as though, you know, individuals in our history as are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes, Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors of what occurred there so as not to repeat it. You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars, So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel guilty for being a white kid in this country. A little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel like they are a victim without agency and are powerless to be whatever they want to be when they grow up either in this country. But and you know, history and the way we we we you know, our education system is and the way we viewer one another and accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely. You know, we talk about in our country, we had the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight and my grandfather was a young and at the time, and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and you know how it all began and who was involved in killing our family, and we held a seventy five year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed our family to that to say, look, we recognize that there was these were really tough times in our country's history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And that to me was an act of forgiveness that took place which I don't believe, which I believe we need more of in order to progress forward as a country. You know, we we we you know, we have experienced the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting. It can be totally empowering and and it can lead to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's so much involved in all of that that I think sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly, but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody or toward anything other than understanding who we are as a country and how not to repeat the failures of our past, and to understand just how far we've come as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community, whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of his land and brought here in chains as a convict at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these are the human stories. We are all human.

When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people and yeah, I call that racism because I was in the cops and I call that racism, and there was racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I don't know. I've been out for a while, but I saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well, I didn't take your children, or you know, like that type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the people from the massacre and you forgave them and there was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when I say I worry some of the comments or the comments that you make, or the position and this is stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum. That was a tough time, a tough time in your life. But it was almost people saying, well, this is an Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it might be all right. So there was a lot of pressure on you with.

When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people and yeah, I call that racism because I was in the cops and I call that racism, and there was racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I don't know. I've been out for a while, but I saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well, I didn't take your children, or you know, like that type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the people from the massacre and you forgave them and there was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when I say I worry some of the comments or the comments that you make, or the position and this is stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum. That was a tough time, a tough time in your life. But it was almost people saying, well, this is an Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it might be all right. So there was a lot of pressure on you with.

Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic, you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism. And people can take my views, and I don't have control over how they react to my views, whether whether they want to you know, suggest racist things on either side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence or facts or anything like that. I think it's important to lay it all on the table. I think it's important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know, when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians who don't agree with my position on things, or have this perception of me because of the media or because of what someone else says, or because they get a snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've said behind it all in greater context. When I do have those engagements, the common thing that we have is we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing. We want to improve and better the lives of those that we love. It's just how we get there that might be a little bit different. And if we can be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people might feel like they can come forward and speak more honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me and they go, why would I want to put my head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that only white people can be racist, Like, as far as I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all sides of the fence. And and you know, when it came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering.

Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic, you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism. And people can take my views, and I don't have control over how they react to my views, whether whether they want to you know, suggest racist things on either side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence or facts or anything like that. I think it's important to lay it all on the table. I think it's important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know, when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians who don't agree with my position on things, or have this perception of me because of the media or because of what someone else says, or because they get a snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've said behind it all in greater context. When I do have those engagements, the common thing that we have is we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing. We want to improve and better the lives of those that we love. It's just how we get there that might be a little bit different. And if we can be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people might feel like they can come forward and speak more honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me and they go, why would I want to put my head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that only white people can be racist, Like, as far as I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all sides of the fence. And and you know, when it came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering.

The lack of.

The lack of.

Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it, and basing my position on the fact that well, despite this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on top of this big mess that already exists. And again my position is not about and a lot of people say, oh, you took power away from Indigenous Australians. Well, you couldn't tell me how this proposal was in fact going to empower anybody. And why would I want to relegate three percent of the population to an entity based on racial heritage when we're all Australian striving for better outcomes for us all.

Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it, and basing my position on the fact that well, despite this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on top of this big mess that already exists. And again my position is not about and a lot of people say, oh, you took power away from Indigenous Australians. Well, you couldn't tell me how this proposal was in fact going to empower anybody. And why would I want to relegate three percent of the population to an entity based on racial heritage when we're all Australian striving for better outcomes for us all.

Just wind back a little bit on what you said there. When you have disagreements or with other members of the indigenous community, but when you sit down they actually talk, you want the same things, but you're going down to a different, different path. I found the referendum it was polarizing for the country. I don't know, and I've said it here and I'm happy to say it. I vaded. Yes, I thought it was something that wasn't and that it changed things dramatically, But it was then acknowledgment of accepting our past. Probably a very simplistic view, but I found the discussions about that divided the country even further, which really saddened me. Yeah, when you look back at it, are you happy with the way it played out, well, it.

Just wind back a little bit on what you said there. When you have disagreements or with other members of the indigenous community, but when you sit down they actually talk, you want the same things, but you're going down to a different, different path. I found the referendum it was polarizing for the country. I don't know, and I've said it here and I'm happy to say it. I vaded. Yes, I thought it was something that wasn't and that it changed things dramatically, But it was then acknowledgment of accepting our past. Probably a very simplistic view, but I found the discussions about that divided the country even further, which really saddened me. Yeah, when you look back at it, are you happy with the way it played out, well, it.

Got the result that I was fighting for, so that I agree with you totally in that it divided our country, which was the worst possible thing that could have happened to us as a country and that we did not need. And it took away focus from actually trying to address the situation, you know, the circumstances on the ground. It took a whole lot of resources, It took a whole lot of attention away from that. And you know, again going back to things that I say, it suggested that things that I say gives a whole past to those who want to say racist things. Well, you know, telling people that because they wanted to vote no, or you know, planned to vote know that they are racists is just as horrible I think, you know, when like as I said, I believe that and Australians I think, have demonstrated over and again the incredible goodwill toward Indigenous Australians and want for better outcomes for us. All Australians want that overwhelmingly. Many feel a sense of responsibility, but often they can't do anything because it's actually out of their hands to do anything. I stand by my position because I didn't want to empower bureaucracy. I am fighting to empower the little people. But I truly believe we have the mechanisms and the structures to do so. We just need to utilize them a hell of a lot better than what we actually do when we need to fix those up. And you know, that's what people need to understand. And for those you know, Indigenous Australians that don't agree with me, that potentially hate me for whatever reason you want to hate me for, you have to understand that this is my absolute aim, always has been my aim, because of the death and destruction and the family members that I've buried over the years. And the reason I'm here is because of that, is because I want to work to bring about those changes.

Got the result that I was fighting for, so that I agree with you totally in that it divided our country, which was the worst possible thing that could have happened to us as a country and that we did not need. And it took away focus from actually trying to address the situation, you know, the circumstances on the ground. It took a whole lot of resources, It took a whole lot of attention away from that. And you know, again going back to things that I say, it suggested that things that I say gives a whole past to those who want to say racist things. Well, you know, telling people that because they wanted to vote no, or you know, planned to vote know that they are racists is just as horrible I think, you know, when like as I said, I believe that and Australians I think, have demonstrated over and again the incredible goodwill toward Indigenous Australians and want for better outcomes for us. All Australians want that overwhelmingly. Many feel a sense of responsibility, but often they can't do anything because it's actually out of their hands to do anything. I stand by my position because I didn't want to empower bureaucracy. I am fighting to empower the little people. But I truly believe we have the mechanisms and the structures to do so. We just need to utilize them a hell of a lot better than what we actually do when we need to fix those up. And you know, that's what people need to understand. And for those you know, Indigenous Australians that don't agree with me, that potentially hate me for whatever reason you want to hate me for, you have to understand that this is my absolute aim, always has been my aim, because of the death and destruction and the family members that I've buried over the years. And the reason I'm here is because of that, is because I want to work to bring about those changes.

You talk about local solutions and breaking it down, the local solutions, and you're worried about more bureaucracy coming over the top. The irony is if you're speaking to people that are in the polar opposite to you, they're probably saying saying the same thing about local solutions to it, but also about representation in parliament. Now you might sit here and go, well, hey, look here I am, but yeah, the complexities of it.

You talk about local solutions and breaking it down, the local solutions, and you're worried about more bureaucracy coming over the top. The irony is if you're speaking to people that are in the polar opposite to you, they're probably saying saying the same thing about local solutions to it, but also about representation in parliament. Now you might sit here and go, well, hey, look here I am, but yeah, the complexities of it.

Just it's so many complexities.

Just it's so many complexities.

Did it have to be that complicated? Couldn't we have just said yeah, yes and let's all feel better? Or did Why did they get.

Did it have to be that complicated? Couldn't we have just said yeah, yes and let's all feel better? Or did Why did they get.

So complicated unintended consequences of simply just saying yes because it felt good, or you know, not understanding the detail behind it. And we're you know, this is our nation's constitution we're talking about as well. You know the fact that I have huge problems with the fact that there is a level of acceptance of individuals that many of us know have got horrible histories, you know, criminal histories, DV histories, sitting in positions of power, the potential to enable them into our constitution, the ramifications of that I did not want to risk. I did not want to risk. Ultimately, you know, there's a there's a there's a there's a person who's been an elder in Victoria who has recently been in prison for his conduct which many Aboriginal Australians knew for years was occurring, and it's only just caught up with him. How many more of those individuals do we know are out there? Let's face it, in our Obiginal communities, we know who these people are who will either get away with their conduct or it'll take just as long for that to be brought to justice until we can clean up our backyard. There's no way that I could have supported a yes vote.

So complicated unintended consequences of simply just saying yes because it felt good, or you know, not understanding the detail behind it. And we're you know, this is our nation's constitution we're talking about as well. You know the fact that I have huge problems with the fact that there is a level of acceptance of individuals that many of us know have got horrible histories, you know, criminal histories, DV histories, sitting in positions of power, the potential to enable them into our constitution, the ramifications of that I did not want to risk. I did not want to risk. Ultimately, you know, there's a there's a there's a there's a person who's been an elder in Victoria who has recently been in prison for his conduct which many Aboriginal Australians knew for years was occurring, and it's only just caught up with him. How many more of those individuals do we know are out there? Let's face it, in our Obiginal communities, we know who these people are who will either get away with their conduct or it'll take just as long for that to be brought to justice until we can clean up our backyard. There's no way that I could have supported a yes vote.

Okay, I didn't honestly think I was going to sway sway we talk about. Yeah, if it goes the way, you hope that you might be re elected. With the election and the Indigenous Affairs minister, can you see a way of bringing everyone together? Because when I talk to you and when I talk to people at the opposite needs, you both, as we identify it, you're both after the same thing, it's just a different part.

Okay, I didn't honestly think I was going to sway sway we talk about. Yeah, if it goes the way, you hope that you might be re elected. With the election and the Indigenous Affairs minister, can you see a way of bringing everyone together? Because when I talk to you and when I talk to people at the opposite needs, you both, as we identify it, you're both after the same thing, it's just a different part.

Well, look, if that's the ultimate focus, I don't see how we can't work together toward that. You know, I'm prepared to sit down with anybody and to have those conversations respectfully, of course, you know, to work out and work a way forward, because I know that everyone wants to contribute toward improvement, and if that's the ultimate aim, then what else would stop an individual from wanting to work toward that together? But also I also am very much interested in hearing from those individuals that have been perhaps ignored or sidelined or have been voiceless because I guess like in many circumstances, in these situations, there's often in organizations or whatever, there's a click.

Well, look, if that's the ultimate focus, I don't see how we can't work together toward that. You know, I'm prepared to sit down with anybody and to have those conversations respectfully, of course, you know, to work out and work a way forward, because I know that everyone wants to contribute toward improvement, and if that's the ultimate aim, then what else would stop an individual from wanting to work toward that together? But also I also am very much interested in hearing from those individuals that have been perhaps ignored or sidelined or have been voiceless because I guess like in many circumstances, in these situations, there's often in organizations or whatever, there's a click.

They can be a.

They can be a.

Click, you know, there's there's little communities within communities, and whether people are prepared to allow others into those you know, is up to them obviously, But there have been those who have been sidelined, and I'm very much interested in hearing from them as well.

Click, you know, there's there's little communities within communities, and whether people are prepared to allow others into those you know, is up to them obviously, But there have been those who have been sidelined, and I'm very much interested in hearing from them as well.

Yeah, okay, well I think you can't. You can't offer up any more than to give people the opportunity to express their express their views. I wanted to ask some some fun questions, just to have a bit of fun because it's so heavy what we're talking about. But just your downtime, Yes, you had ambitions or you were you actually lived the life of a rock star at some stage, your music, you work in TV, tell us a bit about that. What rocks your boat?

Yeah, okay, well I think you can't. You can't offer up any more than to give people the opportunity to express their express their views. I wanted to ask some some fun questions, just to have a bit of fun because it's so heavy what we're talking about. But just your downtime, Yes, you had ambitions or you were you actually lived the life of a rock star at some stage, your music, you work in TV, tell us a bit about that. What rocks your boat?

What rocks my boat? Playing board games with my kids at home? That totally you know, you know, no, it does, though my kids will tell you I'm very competitive. You're not cheating it absolutely not, no, and I'll pull up anyone who is. But look, no, like music has been a huge part of my life all my life, as far back as I can remember, you know, taking to the stage and singing as part of the primary school choir, learning violin as a youngster and playing that for several years. Music's always just resonated with me and my self expression. And then becoming part of a hip hop group as a teenager.

What rocks my boat? Playing board games with my kids at home? That totally you know, you know, no, it does, though my kids will tell you I'm very competitive. You're not cheating it absolutely not, no, and I'll pull up anyone who is. But look, no, like music has been a huge part of my life all my life, as far back as I can remember, you know, taking to the stage and singing as part of the primary school choir, learning violin as a youngster and playing that for several years. Music's always just resonated with me and my self expression. And then becoming part of a hip hop group as a teenager.

And.

And.

You know, I guess I performed well into my thirties as well in terms of hip hop, and it was a great outlet, like it was always got together with with you know, the well couple of them my cousins, and they're practically cousins anyway, right, But we wanted to demonstrate a group of Indigenous kids who were doing something positive in our community, because they are often headlines out youth crime and that sort of thing. We're like saying, look here we are. We're engaged with our community. This is something we love to do. And we also wanted to encourage our peers to consider doing something else then get into trouble, you know, use music as a form of expression.

You know, I guess I performed well into my thirties as well in terms of hip hop, and it was a great outlet, like it was always got together with with you know, the well couple of them my cousins, and they're practically cousins anyway, right, But we wanted to demonstrate a group of Indigenous kids who were doing something positive in our community, because they are often headlines out youth crime and that sort of thing. We're like saying, look here we are. We're engaged with our community. This is something we love to do. And we also wanted to encourage our peers to consider doing something else then get into trouble, you know, use music as a form of expression.

I think role models are so good and we hear a lot of it with sport, but if you could get in the music in any field that role models indigenous role models and all that. But yeah, yeah, I've seen the smile on your face of a clip when you're up at Tamworth Music Festival. Yes, yes, and I can.

I think role models are so good and we hear a lot of it with sport, but if you could get in the music in any field that role models indigenous role models and all that. But yeah, yeah, I've seen the smile on your face of a clip when you're up at Tamworth Music Festival. Yes, yes, and I can.

See on stage and my husband drags me up occasionally.

See on stage and my husband drags me up occasionally.

Okay, what life could have been, But you've managed to find your way in the politics. Look, we've got to wrap it up. But I have enjoyed, enjoyed the chat. There's interesting views on what you've got and explaining things that I'm the person that sits on the outside trying to work out what's going on that's complicated the world that you know you're operating in. I respect people that passionate about things, and your passion certainly comes across. So all the all the best for the future, and let's hope we can make this place a better place.

Okay, what life could have been, But you've managed to find your way in the politics. Look, we've got to wrap it up. But I have enjoyed, enjoyed the chat. There's interesting views on what you've got and explaining things that I'm the person that sits on the outside trying to work out what's going on that's complicated the world that you know you're operating in. I respect people that passionate about things, and your passion certainly comes across. So all the all the best for the future, and let's hope we can make this place a better place.

Absolutely, and thank you for having me. And yeah, I hope your listeners can have a little bit more of an understanding of the human I am. But yeah, my my, my door is always open.

Absolutely, and thank you for having me. And yeah, I hope your listeners can have a little bit more of an understanding of the human I am. But yeah, my my, my door is always open.

Thank you.

Thank you.