When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first things you mention your job? Why does so many of us form such a strong connection between our identity and our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy? To explore the complex relationship between self, identity and work, I'm joined by my very good friend Sabina Read for another thought provoking conversation. Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares her expertise weekly on threeaw and through her popular podcast Human Cogs. Sabina is going to be returning occasionally to help me deep dive and answer these kinds of nuanced topics. So if you've got a question or something that you want answered by a couple of psychologists, send us a message using the email in the show notes. In this episode, we explore whether your work is taking up too much of your personal identity, a simple way to do if your job.

When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first things you mention your job? Why does so many of us form such a strong connection between our identity and our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy? To explore the complex relationship between self, identity and work, I'm joined by my very good friend Sabina Read for another thought provoking conversation. Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares her expertise weekly on threeaw and through her popular podcast Human Cogs. Sabina is going to be returning occasionally to help me deep dive and answer these kinds of nuanced topics. So if you've got a question or something that you want answered by a couple of psychologists, send us a message using the email in the show notes. In this episode, we explore whether your work is taking up too much of your personal identity, a simple way to do if your job.

Is consuming your sense of.

Is consuming your sense of.

Self, and how to separate your work from your identity. Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. We can all agree that work can become a big part of our lives and our identity. But where does that come from and what drives it. To begin exploring this, Sabina wanted to explain the driving factor many of us experience, the need to find a job that perfectly aligns with who we are.

Self, and how to separate your work from your identity. Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. We can all agree that work can become a big part of our lives and our identity. But where does that come from and what drives it. To begin exploring this, Sabina wanted to explain the driving factor many of us experience, the need to find a job that perfectly aligns with who we are.

I think for so many of us, we have this fanciful idea and a job that it's going to be perfectly aligned to who we are. And in so many ways, people also talk about partners and homes, have this idea that there's one soulmate for us, there's one perfect house to live in, there's one perfect partner, and this job that's going to be everything we need it to be. And we've got this idea now that that job will probably be the perfect job because it's so aligned to who we are at our very core. But of course with that alignment comes shadowside as well. So I'll give an example for me. I'm a psychologist. I feel like I've always been a psychologist before I was a psychologist. That's kind of what led me, led me to the work that I do. That I had these skills and these passions, and then that led me to train and decide to get paid for what I do so much so now that I don't know where Sabina starts and psychologists ends. And I use the term psychologists very broadly, not therapist, but in all the work that I do, so human behavior expert. Where that starts and where I don't know because when I sit down on a plane and I sit next to the person next to me, I'm off, you know, so tell me about that, and two minutes later I want to know about their relationship with their mother. You know, good luck to them if it's an international flight, because then I get the whole family truck.

I think for so many of us, we have this fanciful idea and a job that it's going to be perfectly aligned to who we are. And in so many ways, people also talk about partners and homes, have this idea that there's one soulmate for us, there's one perfect house to live in, there's one perfect partner, and this job that's going to be everything we need it to be. And we've got this idea now that that job will probably be the perfect job because it's so aligned to who we are at our very core. But of course with that alignment comes shadowside as well. So I'll give an example for me. I'm a psychologist. I feel like I've always been a psychologist before I was a psychologist. That's kind of what led me, led me to the work that I do. That I had these skills and these passions, and then that led me to train and decide to get paid for what I do so much so now that I don't know where Sabina starts and psychologists ends. And I use the term psychologists very broadly, not therapist, but in all the work that I do, so human behavior expert. Where that starts and where I don't know because when I sit down on a plane and I sit next to the person next to me, I'm off, you know, so tell me about that, and two minutes later I want to know about their relationship with their mother. You know, good luck to them if it's an international flight, because then I get the whole family truck.

Didn't he befriend an air hostess?

Didn't he befriend an air hostess?

I did? I did, I did recently, and he was such a beautiful, beautiful man. We spent about three hours talking and he ended up talking to me about potentially him coming out as a gay man, but not being sure if that would be accepted with his family room. You know, it was a very personal, meaningful conversation. That's a good example exactly. And I could have just sat there and taken the chicken or fish like everyone else does, bear a good little person on the aeroplane. But no, no, he started by saying something around you know, you've got a good energy, or like the way you said hi or something, and then you know I don't need much and I'm I'm on and it's not pretend, it's not forced. It feels really in Asian, very natural. But I think why I was interested in this topic of how much is my identity my job and vice versa is because, of course, as psychologists, we know that we learn things along the way, and have we learned What kind of reward feedback have I got? I mean, of course I probably get some kind of dopamine hits when people share and confide and connect. My greatest value is connection. So I'm connecting with people. It feels good for me, it feels good for them. Then, also because I share things in the media and on socials, people will often say to me, oh, you're doing such fascinating work. I know they say this to you as well, and then I feel like you're saying that because I've put my work out there as a content creator, so many people are doing fascinating work. But because I'm sharing it, I'm now getting that positive feedback as well. The question is how much of the job that I do, the job title that I do is truly me And I believe there are strengths to being very aligned to my vocation or to a vocation, and there's a shadow side as well.

I did? I did, I did recently, and he was such a beautiful, beautiful man. We spent about three hours talking and he ended up talking to me about potentially him coming out as a gay man, but not being sure if that would be accepted with his family room. You know, it was a very personal, meaningful conversation. That's a good example exactly. And I could have just sat there and taken the chicken or fish like everyone else does, bear a good little person on the aeroplane. But no, no, he started by saying something around you know, you've got a good energy, or like the way you said hi or something, and then you know I don't need much and I'm I'm on and it's not pretend, it's not forced. It feels really in Asian, very natural. But I think why I was interested in this topic of how much is my identity my job and vice versa is because, of course, as psychologists, we know that we learn things along the way, and have we learned What kind of reward feedback have I got? I mean, of course I probably get some kind of dopamine hits when people share and confide and connect. My greatest value is connection. So I'm connecting with people. It feels good for me, it feels good for them. Then, also because I share things in the media and on socials, people will often say to me, oh, you're doing such fascinating work. I know they say this to you as well, and then I feel like you're saying that because I've put my work out there as a content creator, so many people are doing fascinating work. But because I'm sharing it, I'm now getting that positive feedback as well. The question is how much of the job that I do, the job title that I do is truly me And I believe there are strengths to being very aligned to my vocation or to a vocation, and there's a shadow side as well.

Yeah, I can relate to what a lot of what you're saying.

Yeah, I can relate to what a lot of what you're saying.

And minus the air hostess. Yeah, they don't call them hostess as anyone. Flight attendant, flight attendant sorry, yes, flight attendant.

And minus the air hostess. Yeah, they don't call them hostess as anyone. Flight attendant, flight attendant sorry, yes, flight attendant.

Yes, although because I'm far more introveted than you, I will not strike up conversations with strangers ever. But yeah, I've always felt very very closely aligned that what I do for work is a very big part of who I am as a person. And like you said, in some ways that is wonderful because spends so much of our adult waking hours doing work. But it's also I think puts you in quite a vulnerable position in that that like I don't have any form of like I feel like you know, if I stopped work tomorrow, I'd be very lost and my self esteem might crumble. So it's something I've thought a lot about, and I'm keen to know, like, what are strategies that we can use if perhaps you are someone that can relate to us where your self identity is very very wrapped up in what you do for work, not that we're saying that is a bad thing, but there is a shadow side. So I'm curious, like in your own life, looking at the shadow side, have you done anything well?

Yes, although because I'm far more introveted than you, I will not strike up conversations with strangers ever. But yeah, I've always felt very very closely aligned that what I do for work is a very big part of who I am as a person. And like you said, in some ways that is wonderful because spends so much of our adult waking hours doing work. But it's also I think puts you in quite a vulnerable position in that that like I don't have any form of like I feel like you know, if I stopped work tomorrow, I'd be very lost and my self esteem might crumble. So it's something I've thought a lot about, and I'm keen to know, like, what are strategies that we can use if perhaps you are someone that can relate to us where your self identity is very very wrapped up in what you do for work, not that we're saying that is a bad thing, but there is a shadow side. So I'm curious, like in your own life, looking at the shadow side, have you done anything well?

One of the questions I've asked myself if I wasn't, aside from being a psychologist, who am I? This is deeper, This is deeper question, but they have to be because you know, we can't just skip through the gillips on this one. Even if you ask anyone who am I, most people give you a response with regards to a role in their life. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a psychologist, I'm a daughter, I'm a neighbor, I'm a friend. There are all roles that we play. When we attach our identity to a role or a multitude of roles, then in the context of what you and I are talking about, if that role disappears, I disappear. And this is really relevant, whether it's as someone who aligns neatly with their work, but also in the space of grief. If I'm no longer a daughter, who am I? If that was a big role that I played, or whatever the other relational roles are. And so I think for people across the entire last band. I think this is important conversation to have with children as well. Actually is who are we separate to our roles and our achievements? And when we ask people that, when I've asked people that most people are quite stuck. I don't know. I don't even know what you mean by that question. I've been told before. So then I would be inviting us to think about the qualities that I am that are not beholden or attached to those roles in my life. So I like to think that I am compassionate, curious, fun, thoughtful, loyal, you know whatever. These traits can't be taken from me when a role is taken from me, or if I lose a role, because they're within me, they're not in response to things that I do.

One of the questions I've asked myself if I wasn't, aside from being a psychologist, who am I? This is deeper, This is deeper question, but they have to be because you know, we can't just skip through the gillips on this one. Even if you ask anyone who am I, most people give you a response with regards to a role in their life. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a psychologist, I'm a daughter, I'm a neighbor, I'm a friend. There are all roles that we play. When we attach our identity to a role or a multitude of roles, then in the context of what you and I are talking about, if that role disappears, I disappear. And this is really relevant, whether it's as someone who aligns neatly with their work, but also in the space of grief. If I'm no longer a daughter, who am I? If that was a big role that I played, or whatever the other relational roles are. And so I think for people across the entire last band. I think this is important conversation to have with children as well. Actually is who are we separate to our roles and our achievements? And when we ask people that, when I've asked people that most people are quite stuck. I don't know. I don't even know what you mean by that question. I've been told before. So then I would be inviting us to think about the qualities that I am that are not beholden or attached to those roles in my life. So I like to think that I am compassionate, curious, fun, thoughtful, loyal, you know whatever. These traits can't be taken from me when a role is taken from me, or if I lose a role, because they're within me, they're not in response to things that I do.

I want to pick up on what you said about self identity being linked to achievement because I feel like I can very.

I want to pick up on what you said about self identity being linked to achievement because I feel like I can very.

Much relate to that. And I feel like a lot of people that are successful.

Much relate to that. And I feel like a lot of people that are successful.

In their career or have you risen to the top of their field, that they probably received a lot of positive reinforcement for achieving things when they are a child.

In their career or have you risen to the top of their field, that they probably received a lot of positive reinforcement for achieving things when they are a child.

And that's definitely something I can relate.

And that's definitely something I can relate.

To and you know, it's kind of chasing, I guess the eternal sense of parental approval, which.

To and you know, it's kind of chasing, I guess the eternal sense of parental approval, which.

I do feel like I have, but clearly I mean, you've got that.

I do feel like I have, but clearly I mean, you've got that.

Now, I've got that, Like I mean, I feel unconditional love for my parents.

Now, I've got that, Like I mean, I feel unconditional love for my parents.

But you know, I'm sure that there's a part.

But you know, I'm sure that there's a part.

Of me that's like, well, I need to keep achieving to maintain that love, which is which is irrational.

Of me that's like, well, I need to keep achieving to maintain that love, which is which is irrational.

It's probably not irrational because it's how you learn to be in the world, and we're all the same, we just we learn different. So I think it's better not to skate over that and say yeah, I know that, to cut it doesn't make sense anymore. It's how we learn to survive. If you're not an only child, the dynamics you have with siblings plays a big part too. But if you are an only child that plays its own role around not having that comparison peace and there's no one else to you better step up because they don't have a know other child is going to bring home the gold medal.

It's probably not irrational because it's how you learn to be in the world, and we're all the same, we just we learn different. So I think it's better not to skate over that and say yeah, I know that, to cut it doesn't make sense anymore. It's how we learn to survive. If you're not an only child, the dynamics you have with siblings plays a big part too. But if you are an only child that plays its own role around not having that comparison peace and there's no one else to you better step up because they don't have a know other child is going to bring home the gold medal.

It's you.

It's you.

And when you've got siblings, I think once one role has been taken by one sibling, subsequent children sort of say that gig's been taken, I'll choose another persona to play out in this. So we needed these behaviors to survive in our own families, and then we tend to carry these behaviors with us into adulthood. And that bit doesn't make sense. We don't need them in the same way now. But I think we need to honor with gratitude why these behaviors came to be in the first place. The need to achieve served us well. Then the question is do I need to continue repeating that now?

And when you've got siblings, I think once one role has been taken by one sibling, subsequent children sort of say that gig's been taken, I'll choose another persona to play out in this. So we needed these behaviors to survive in our own families, and then we tend to carry these behaviors with us into adulthood. And that bit doesn't make sense. We don't need them in the same way now. But I think we need to honor with gratitude why these behaviors came to be in the first place. The need to achieve served us well. Then the question is do I need to continue repeating that now?

I think something else that maybe confuses me sometimes is I think about how much time goes into my work, a lot of time, and then I think about what are my values? What are the things that matter most to me? And my family is at the top of that list.

I think something else that maybe confuses me sometimes is I think about how much time goes into my work, a lot of time, and then I think about what are my values? What are the things that matter most to me? And my family is at the top of that list.

It's not work.

It's not work.

And I'll make choices where I put work in front of my family. Like if I'm I don't know, accepting a keynote speaking gig, which means I have to be away from my partner and daughter for a night for like as a really simple example, and I find that really challenging.

And I'll make choices where I put work in front of my family. Like if I'm I don't know, accepting a keynote speaking gig, which means I have to be away from my partner and daughter for a night for like as a really simple example, and I find that really challenging.

And I think.

And I think.

Also, and I mean, you know, this has been said by so many parents and particularly mothers in the past, it's like work gives me a clear sense of progress, but I do not have that as a parent. And I think how I've started to think about that is I think I'm trying to tune more into the special moments, particularly with Frankie, like in my role as her mum. Like I had this moment on the weekend where we went on a mother daughter movie date and we don't go on those all that often, so it was quite special, just the two of us, you know, no friends of hers brought along, and she's at this great age, is nearly a life and yeah, she's just like parroting some of the dialogue to me to try to be funny and just you know, just like mucking around. And I just had this thought, It's like, ah, this isn't gonna last forever. She's going to be a teenager, so I'm just gonna think that I'm really embarrassing and that it's not cool to like, you know, muck around with your mum and be funny together. And you know, I was just sort of overcome with this emotion and this sentimentality and just going this is a precious moment right now, I'm going to treasure it, and I feel like it's like that is the closest equivalent I can get to the sense of achievement that I get at work when you know, I look at quantitative data, whether that's feedback scores or financials or whatever it might be, to go, yeah, I've done a good job. I've like, you know, got this award, I've got this external externale validation. And I think that's what I'm trying to think about to have some sort of equivalence in the nonwork domains.

Also, and I mean, you know, this has been said by so many parents and particularly mothers in the past, it's like work gives me a clear sense of progress, but I do not have that as a parent. And I think how I've started to think about that is I think I'm trying to tune more into the special moments, particularly with Frankie, like in my role as her mum. Like I had this moment on the weekend where we went on a mother daughter movie date and we don't go on those all that often, so it was quite special, just the two of us, you know, no friends of hers brought along, and she's at this great age, is nearly a life and yeah, she's just like parroting some of the dialogue to me to try to be funny and just you know, just like mucking around. And I just had this thought, It's like, ah, this isn't gonna last forever. She's going to be a teenager, so I'm just gonna think that I'm really embarrassing and that it's not cool to like, you know, muck around with your mum and be funny together. And you know, I was just sort of overcome with this emotion and this sentimentality and just going this is a precious moment right now, I'm going to treasure it, and I feel like it's like that is the closest equivalent I can get to the sense of achievement that I get at work when you know, I look at quantitative data, whether that's feedback scores or financials or whatever it might be, to go, yeah, I've done a good job. I've like, you know, got this award, I've got this external externale validation. And I think that's what I'm trying to think about to have some sort of equivalence in the nonwork domains.

Of my life. And I relate to a lot of what you just said. My kids, as you know, twenty two and twenty four, so we've moved through deenage years. They're back now and I'm still embarrassing, but they embrace it. But the bit that you said then that landed kind of hard for me is that sometimes I choose work. I choose work first, and I'm not as interested in the metrics as you are. I think we know that I'm interested in the connection and the growth and the shared experience that I have in my work with corporate clients and media settings and keynotes and workshops and things. And I've got a level of shame saying that out loud, But because you shared it, I'm sharing it too. Look, I could throw around some metrics for what you just described with Frankie. The metric for me would be the way she was looking at you and engaging you and perroshing as you said, whatever was in the mood she was saying, be with me, I'm here with you. That's the metric, and it don't fit in a spreadsheet. And I know if I had a dollar for every time an older woman said to me when my kids were at all, it goes so fast, make the most of it, enjoy it, make you know it's precious time. And all of the times as a parent you're thinking not feeling so freaking precious at the moment, feeling like it's got another nine hours to go into a better those moments that were hard. And yet now I'm one of those middle aged women saying it goes so quickly. So the metrics are different. And we got onto this cheat We've gone everywhere. We got onto this because we're talking about how aligned we are to our work and how our work feels like an extension of who we are. The foundation of that is the reward system. That we get from it, and not just in metrics, but in those things that I said, For me, connection and knowing that you're impacting another's life, it's important, it's meaningful, but it also comes with high reward. You know, it's a dopamine hit.

Of my life. And I relate to a lot of what you just said. My kids, as you know, twenty two and twenty four, so we've moved through deenage years. They're back now and I'm still embarrassing, but they embrace it. But the bit that you said then that landed kind of hard for me is that sometimes I choose work. I choose work first, and I'm not as interested in the metrics as you are. I think we know that I'm interested in the connection and the growth and the shared experience that I have in my work with corporate clients and media settings and keynotes and workshops and things. And I've got a level of shame saying that out loud, But because you shared it, I'm sharing it too. Look, I could throw around some metrics for what you just described with Frankie. The metric for me would be the way she was looking at you and engaging you and perroshing as you said, whatever was in the mood she was saying, be with me, I'm here with you. That's the metric, and it don't fit in a spreadsheet. And I know if I had a dollar for every time an older woman said to me when my kids were at all, it goes so fast, make the most of it, enjoy it, make you know it's precious time. And all of the times as a parent you're thinking not feeling so freaking precious at the moment, feeling like it's got another nine hours to go into a better those moments that were hard. And yet now I'm one of those middle aged women saying it goes so quickly. So the metrics are different. And we got onto this cheat We've gone everywhere. We got onto this because we're talking about how aligned we are to our work and how our work feels like an extension of who we are. The foundation of that is the reward system. That we get from it, and not just in metrics, but in those things that I said, For me, connection and knowing that you're impacting another's life, it's important, it's meaningful, but it also comes with high reward. You know, it's a dopamine hit.

We will be back with Savina soon, and when we return, we'll explore whether we should all be searching for the perfect identity aligned job, how to tell if your work is consuming your sense of self, and a simple step to make sure your job doesn't define you entirely. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. I would love to talk about just some different ways that perhaps we can start to pull apart our self identity from our work that I've been thinking about, and I'd love to get your feedback on these. So one thing I've been thinking about is this idea of identity diversification. Like just like if you see a financial advisor, they're like, well, diversification, that's the smartest strategy. I think about the risks of putting all your self identity eggs in one basket, and what happens if something goes wrong in that realm Like that is probably not a good recipe for you know, building resilience.

We will be back with Savina soon, and when we return, we'll explore whether we should all be searching for the perfect identity aligned job, how to tell if your work is consuming your sense of self, and a simple step to make sure your job doesn't define you entirely. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. I would love to talk about just some different ways that perhaps we can start to pull apart our self identity from our work that I've been thinking about, and I'd love to get your feedback on these. So one thing I've been thinking about is this idea of identity diversification. Like just like if you see a financial advisor, they're like, well, diversification, that's the smartest strategy. I think about the risks of putting all your self identity eggs in one basket, and what happens if something goes wrong in that realm Like that is probably not a good recipe for you know, building resilience.

Well, you and I both have so called portfolio careers. Well I describe Do you describe your work like that?

Well, you and I both have so called portfolio careers. Well I describe Do you describe your work like that?

I don't, but I relate to that.

I don't, but I relate to that.

Okay, I do. Maybe because you're under the inventing umbrella you don't. But for me, I think all of these things that I do are quite separate. So if I lost my capacity to speak on stage, let's say, maybe I can still speak into a microphone, or if.

Okay, I do. Maybe because you're under the inventing umbrella you don't. But for me, I think all of these things that I do are quite separate. So if I lost my capacity to speak on stage, let's say, maybe I can still speak into a microphone, or if.

I look at strange injuries. This I don't know.

I look at strange injuries. This I don't know.

I don't know. I can't think. But you said if I lost the capacity, Okay, I'm not quite sure how to tap into this for the work that you and I do. But if you're, for instance, a surgeon, and somehow you lose your dexterity, of your finger dexterity, you can't actually perform surgery anymore, then you really are having to.

I don't know. I can't think. But you said if I lost the capacity, Okay, I'm not quite sure how to tap into this for the work that you and I do. But if you're, for instance, a surgeon, and somehow you lose your dexterity, of your finger dexterity, you can't actually perform surgery anymore, then you really are having to.

More than diversify.

More than diversify.

You're going to have to think how am I going to use my knowledge and my skills. I've not thought about this before, but let's just say that happens to a surgeon. They then could choose to teach other people. They could bring their years of knowledge of sitting with patients and share insights about that patient journey, so they could be working with the patient or other surgeons without using their fingers. And I think for all of us, there are ways that we could continue to use our skill set and our passion. But then, actually, as I'm saying this, it loops me back to what I already feel, which is this targe alignment with human behavior psychological expertise. I think it will follow me if I'm carrioaking off flying on a plane. I'm still bringing this to the table. And so the other question is, and what's wrong with that? I wanted to play out the pros and the constant strengths and the shadow side in this. If you know so many people, I've worked with people around that. I worked as the ambassador at SEAK for seven years, so I did a lot. I had a lot of conversations in a lot of forums with people around their career trajectories, and so many people talk about wanting to find work that's meaningful, that reflects their values, that's an extension of who they are, that they feel motivated to get up in the morning and do that they're not doing to play someone else. These are all things that I feel in my work. So I'm asking the universe and you and myself, why do I need to dial that down?

You're going to have to think how am I going to use my knowledge and my skills. I've not thought about this before, but let's just say that happens to a surgeon. They then could choose to teach other people. They could bring their years of knowledge of sitting with patients and share insights about that patient journey, so they could be working with the patient or other surgeons without using their fingers. And I think for all of us, there are ways that we could continue to use our skill set and our passion. But then, actually, as I'm saying this, it loops me back to what I already feel, which is this targe alignment with human behavior psychological expertise. I think it will follow me if I'm carrioaking off flying on a plane. I'm still bringing this to the table. And so the other question is, and what's wrong with that? I wanted to play out the pros and the constant strengths and the shadow side in this. If you know so many people, I've worked with people around that. I worked as the ambassador at SEAK for seven years, so I did a lot. I had a lot of conversations in a lot of forums with people around their career trajectories, and so many people talk about wanting to find work that's meaningful, that reflects their values, that's an extension of who they are, that they feel motivated to get up in the morning and do that they're not doing to play someone else. These are all things that I feel in my work. So I'm asking the universe and you and myself, why do I need to dial that down?

Okay? I think there are couple of reasons. Why.

Okay? I think there are couple of reasons. Why.

Firstly, does it lead to a lack of balance? Like, can it lead to workaholism?

Firstly, does it lead to a lack of balance? Like, can it lead to workaholism?

You know?

You know?

I feel like in twenty twenty four I worked more hours than I would care to admit, and I was very unbalanced, and I was most of the time not happy about that, but I felt like I.

I feel like in twenty twenty four I worked more hours than I would care to admit, and I was very unbalanced, and I was most of the time not happy about that, but I felt like I.

Had to do it.

Had to do it.

Okay, So where we get our energy from? If you're doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted, and we did a prior app on burnout, so we know that story. I don't know if I call that identity alignment with your job. I called that workaholic, and that's what you called it. So I think it also depends on how we feel, how energized we feel doing the work that we do. But if I'm being really honest, it also depends on the people who love us most and how they feel about the work that we do too.

Okay, So where we get our energy from? If you're doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted, and we did a prior app on burnout, so we know that story. I don't know if I call that identity alignment with your job. I called that workaholic, and that's what you called it. So I think it also depends on how we feel, how energized we feel doing the work that we do. But if I'm being really honest, it also depends on the people who love us most and how they feel about the work that we do too.

That's true.

That's true.

I just feel like there's a huge vulnerability that comes with it.

I just feel like there's a huge vulnerability that comes with it.

Like I look at close.

Like I look at close.

Friends of mine who have been through job loss or retrenchment or you know, any number of those things, and you know, I think most people in their lives have been through something like that. And you know, the ones that I've seen struggle the most are the ones that most closely have their self identity aligned to their work. You know, I think, you know, we talked about in an earlier episode on Burnout just around you know, one of my fears last year, you know, going to worst case scenarios, like what if Inventium doesn't exist? Who am I without inventingum? And like, yes, I could get to the answers, but it wasn't easy.

Friends of mine who have been through job loss or retrenchment or you know, any number of those things, and you know, I think most people in their lives have been through something like that. And you know, the ones that I've seen struggle the most are the ones that most closely have their self identity aligned to their work. You know, I think, you know, we talked about in an earlier episode on Burnout just around you know, one of my fears last year, you know, going to worst case scenarios, like what if Inventium doesn't exist? Who am I without inventingum? And like, yes, I could get to the answers, but it wasn't easy.

Why does it have to be I like that, you're.

Why does it have to be I like that, you're.

Challenging me, But yeah, I can only think of shoulds, like it should be like this, or it should be like that, or I.

Challenging me, But yeah, I can only think of shoulds, like it should be like this, or it should be like that, or I.

Should do That's my biggest swear word.

Should do That's my biggest swear word.

You're like, I got nothing.

You're like, I got nothing.

I got nothing there, I got nothing.

I got nothing there, I got nothing.

It's like I should I should have more diversification in my identity.

It's like I should I should have more diversification in my identity.

I think it's worth really exploring where that should come from and if it comes from fear based thinking, which we've talked about before, because I think I'll be caught out. You know, I tend to think with an abundant mindset. I'm not tapping into some area of research in positive psychology. It's just how I think. So my belief is that if one door closes, another one will open. I genuinely believe that, so I don't think as much through that fear lens. So for now, I feel very aligned to psychological work. And if at some point I can do that, I'll explore that then, but I won't live in the wadifs now around that issue.

I think it's worth really exploring where that should come from and if it comes from fear based thinking, which we've talked about before, because I think I'll be caught out. You know, I tend to think with an abundant mindset. I'm not tapping into some area of research in positive psychology. It's just how I think. So my belief is that if one door closes, another one will open. I genuinely believe that, so I don't think as much through that fear lens. So for now, I feel very aligned to psychological work. And if at some point I can do that, I'll explore that then, but I won't live in the wadifs now around that issue.

So are you saying then that there is no issue having your work? I'm just.

So are you saying then that there is no issue having your work? I'm just.

I think the bit that's the greatest vulnerability or potential pain point is losing sense of self, letting your vocation, your job, your title, your role swallow you whole.

I think the bit that's the greatest vulnerability or potential pain point is losing sense of self, letting your vocation, your job, your title, your role swallow you whole.

How would you know if that's happening, Well.

How would you know if that's happening, Well.

I think you would lose connection with other people, meaningful people in your life, which is a cousin of workoholism as well.

I think you would lose connection with other people, meaningful people in your life, which is a cousin of workoholism as well.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

And to understand what is the driver here? Is the driver another hit of dopamine, or is the driver to learn and grow to understand what drives us and then to think about where else I can honor those drivers.

And to understand what is the driver here? Is the driver another hit of dopamine, or is the driver to learn and grow to understand what drives us and then to think about where else I can honor those drivers.

So this is something else I think about, like in terms of the idea of mastery. And we can obviously get a lot of satisfaction from our work if we're mastering new things. But then back to this idea of diversification, like I've deliberately in the last six or so months tried to pick up a newish hobby or as it was a hobby when I was a child, you a lot of sewing, and I was quite inspired when I went over to Vietnam and all the places that are set up to make these garments that I want to get back into sewing I want to do. I don't want to do that, and so that's become, I guess, an area of mastery outside of work, which I've really liked for a couple of reasons. Firstly because it's not just all about work, but secondly, as someone that works with ideas and intangibles, it's been really rewarding to just do something with my hands and feel and physically see a sense of progress with this new skill. So I found that very useful, and that's been a really deliberate choice to go. I want to get some mastery outside of my work, because most of the things that I do to learn and grow their work oriented. I'm literally just doing it so that I can create things and so that I'm good enough. So I'm relearning skills because you can't sew and not like know how to I don't know do a seme or you know, put a pattern together, and so it's relearning a lot of those things and trying to go a little bit deeper.

So this is something else I think about, like in terms of the idea of mastery. And we can obviously get a lot of satisfaction from our work if we're mastering new things. But then back to this idea of diversification, like I've deliberately in the last six or so months tried to pick up a newish hobby or as it was a hobby when I was a child, you a lot of sewing, and I was quite inspired when I went over to Vietnam and all the places that are set up to make these garments that I want to get back into sewing I want to do. I don't want to do that, and so that's become, I guess, an area of mastery outside of work, which I've really liked for a couple of reasons. Firstly because it's not just all about work, but secondly, as someone that works with ideas and intangibles, it's been really rewarding to just do something with my hands and feel and physically see a sense of progress with this new skill. So I found that very useful, and that's been a really deliberate choice to go. I want to get some mastery outside of my work, because most of the things that I do to learn and grow their work oriented. I'm literally just doing it so that I can create things and so that I'm good enough. So I'm relearning skills because you can't sew and not like know how to I don't know do a seme or you know, put a pattern together, and so it's relearning a lot of those things and trying to go a little bit deeper.

Yeah. I like the idea of diversification of skill and experiences, that we try new things not to be the master at them, but just to see how they feel.

Yeah. I like the idea of diversification of skill and experiences, that we try new things not to be the master at them, but just to see how they feel.

Something I think about is with the like important relationships and friendships in our life is I think about where if they come from, and I think if too many of those are work related, then it kind of sets off an alarm bell in my head to go, hmm, am I if it's about me or if it's about someone else, you know, is it about too myopic a focus on work? If I look across all my friendships and hang on, they're all work friendships? And they all do the same job that I do, or they're all in the same industry. And so I think that's also something that I've deliberately tried to cultivate, where I look at my friends and there they're really quite different in what they do. Like, yes, there's a cluster of say, female business owners, who you know, I dearly love, and I've got a little community of them. And yes, you know, I probably over index on psychologists that of friends, but different like an org psych is really different to a clinical psyche, for example. But then otherwise there's quite a bit of diversity, and I feel like I've deliberately tried to do that.

Something I think about is with the like important relationships and friendships in our life is I think about where if they come from, and I think if too many of those are work related, then it kind of sets off an alarm bell in my head to go, hmm, am I if it's about me or if it's about someone else, you know, is it about too myopic a focus on work? If I look across all my friendships and hang on, they're all work friendships? And they all do the same job that I do, or they're all in the same industry. And so I think that's also something that I've deliberately tried to cultivate, where I look at my friends and there they're really quite different in what they do. Like, yes, there's a cluster of say, female business owners, who you know, I dearly love, and I've got a little community of them. And yes, you know, I probably over index on psychologists that of friends, but different like an org psych is really different to a clinical psyche, for example. But then otherwise there's quite a bit of diversity, and I feel like I've deliberately tried to do that.

Is this something you think about in your life.

Is this something you think about in your life.

I don't have many psych friends. It's really interesting you talk about diversity and friendship. I'm drawn to people for a myriad of reasons, and it's not their sav or the qualifications that they have. I've probably got to know more people, probably more in sort of the I would say more org psych space because it's what I'm in now, but I wouldn't even call them org psychs. They're people who have an interest in human behavior and well being, in stress, in relationships, in our working lives. But I've also got a whole bunch of friends that do you name a job, and they do it. So I feel conflicted in this conversation because I feel extremely aligned to my identity as a psychologist, of broadly speaking, but I also experience a lot of diversity in my work and in my friendships and in my day to day even in my data. Every day is different, no days the same, So I feel like I've got a lot of breadth and variability. Even though I feel I tightly hold on or I think others would say I tightly hold on to the psychological knowledge, I think there's something interesting as psychologists. Psychology is just the study of human behavior, the way we think, feel, and behave. That's it, full stop. And for me, that's such a winner, and it's so fascinating because you can hang it on any part of your life, on anyone's life. Now, if you're a chef, you talk about food, and you could talk about what the meaning of food is and what kind of foods you grew up on and ways to cook different dishes and things, but it doesn't apply to every part of life. In the same way, if you're a police person, there's a lot of elements, a lot of layers, but there's something about psychology more broadly speaking, that touches every part of our no disrespect to police or shit, but that touches very part of our lives. So it's endlessly fascinating to me of the all of the parts of life that it touches. So it doesn't feel linear like that. But I might just be trying to talk myself out of it, and I'm open to you and.

I don't have many psych friends. It's really interesting you talk about diversity and friendship. I'm drawn to people for a myriad of reasons, and it's not their sav or the qualifications that they have. I've probably got to know more people, probably more in sort of the I would say more org psych space because it's what I'm in now, but I wouldn't even call them org psychs. They're people who have an interest in human behavior and well being, in stress, in relationships, in our working lives. But I've also got a whole bunch of friends that do you name a job, and they do it. So I feel conflicted in this conversation because I feel extremely aligned to my identity as a psychologist, of broadly speaking, but I also experience a lot of diversity in my work and in my friendships and in my day to day even in my data. Every day is different, no days the same, So I feel like I've got a lot of breadth and variability. Even though I feel I tightly hold on or I think others would say I tightly hold on to the psychological knowledge, I think there's something interesting as psychologists. Psychology is just the study of human behavior, the way we think, feel, and behave. That's it, full stop. And for me, that's such a winner, and it's so fascinating because you can hang it on any part of your life, on anyone's life. Now, if you're a chef, you talk about food, and you could talk about what the meaning of food is and what kind of foods you grew up on and ways to cook different dishes and things, but it doesn't apply to every part of life. In the same way, if you're a police person, there's a lot of elements, a lot of layers, but there's something about psychology more broadly speaking, that touches every part of our no disrespect to police or shit, but that touches very part of our lives. So it's endlessly fascinating to me of the all of the parts of life that it touches. So it doesn't feel linear like that. But I might just be trying to talk myself out of it, and I'm open to you and.

Talk me back off, back off.

Talk me back off, back off.

The cych shelf. What I know.

The cych shelf. What I know.

I'm wondering because there are probably people listening that do not feel a connection to their work, do not feel it's their calling, do not feel it is the be all and end all.

I'm wondering because there are probably people listening that do not feel a connection to their work, do not feel it's their calling, do not feel it is the be all and end all.

Is that a problem? Should they be searching for?

Is that a problem? Should they be searching for?

You know, the affinity that you have with psychology for example.

You know, the affinity that you have with psychology for example.

No, not necessarily, but I think I think, you know, we work a third of our lives. We want to do something that brings us some level of learnings. I don't want to sound evangelical about it or too much like swallowed the pop psychology cool aid, but I do think there's something around enjoyment, meaning, purpose, connection, impact that are pretty core universal human drivers and for me, that's kind of a mindset we bring to their work that we do. I was having my nails done recently, which, as you know, is something that I have done since I was fifteen. Just it's sort of just a thing that I do that gives me a moment to myself and makes me feel good. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. Anyway, the woman that was panning the aile, she said, these look really good. I'm really proud of myself. She was really rating her polish work. And I'm just a normal nail polish, no fancy, no nothing, just polish in a bottle. And I was so struck with how much pride. And she shared that with me, and I thought, that's it. I don't know if she, you know, he feels highly overly aligned with herself as a manicurist. But I think that's what we're probably all needing. Some part of is, yeah, I did good today and I've impacted another person in some way. And she nailed that.

No, not necessarily, but I think I think, you know, we work a third of our lives. We want to do something that brings us some level of learnings. I don't want to sound evangelical about it or too much like swallowed the pop psychology cool aid, but I do think there's something around enjoyment, meaning, purpose, connection, impact that are pretty core universal human drivers and for me, that's kind of a mindset we bring to their work that we do. I was having my nails done recently, which, as you know, is something that I have done since I was fifteen. Just it's sort of just a thing that I do that gives me a moment to myself and makes me feel good. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. Anyway, the woman that was panning the aile, she said, these look really good. I'm really proud of myself. She was really rating her polish work. And I'm just a normal nail polish, no fancy, no nothing, just polish in a bottle. And I was so struck with how much pride. And she shared that with me, and I thought, that's it. I don't know if she, you know, he feels highly overly aligned with herself as a manicurist. But I think that's what we're probably all needing. Some part of is, yeah, I did good today and I've impacted another person in some way. And she nailed that.

They'll be see. She knows it physically, she nailed it.

They'll be see. She knows it physically, she nailed it.

But as I said at the outset, if we talk too much, if we have this idea that we must find a job that is totally aligned with who we are and makes our souls sing every day. And you know, I sometimes joke and prasos that I give that wouldn't it be great if it gets to Friday night and we're all like, no, no, it's Friday. It's Friday night, And I don't want it to be Friday because that means the weekend I have to until Monday. Yeah, that's probably not in either. It's something around learning and impacting others full stop.

But as I said at the outset, if we talk too much, if we have this idea that we must find a job that is totally aligned with who we are and makes our souls sing every day. And you know, I sometimes joke and prasos that I give that wouldn't it be great if it gets to Friday night and we're all like, no, no, it's Friday. It's Friday night, And I don't want it to be Friday because that means the weekend I have to until Monday. Yeah, that's probably not in either. It's something around learning and impacting others full stop.

How much of it do you think is the job versus the organization that you're in, Like, let's just say your job is not calling, but you have, you know, a deep connection to the company and the team and the people that you work with.

How much of it do you think is the job versus the organization that you're in, Like, let's just say your job is not calling, but you have, you know, a deep connection to the company and the team and the people that you work with.

Is that good enough? Do you think?

Is that good enough? Do you think?

Well? I like the phrase good enough. It's a phrase I use often because, you know, instead of saying, is that what we're striving for? Is that the gold gold star of jobs. I don't think there's a one size fits all response to that question. I think it depends on what matters most to us. So it goes back to this story of values. If your values are around what.

Well? I like the phrase good enough. It's a phrase I use often because, you know, instead of saying, is that what we're striving for? Is that the gold gold star of jobs. I don't think there's a one size fits all response to that question. I think it depends on what matters most to us. So it goes back to this story of values. If your values are around what.

Did you say, like you feel a deep connection to the culture and the people that you work with.

Did you say, like you feel a deep connection to the culture and the people that you work with.

Yeah, so if your top values are around connection and so just feeling like you're part of a team, you're all on the same page, you're moving towards the same goals, that might be what floats your boat more than anything. If your top values around innovation and you're just kind of moving with the gang, that could be very frustrating. And yeah, I think the culture of where we work makes it a very big difference. I mean, we know one of the raisins people they've worked most often is a boss that's not aligned to how they work.

Yeah, so if your top values are around connection and so just feeling like you're part of a team, you're all on the same page, you're moving towards the same goals, that might be what floats your boat more than anything. If your top values around innovation and you're just kind of moving with the gang, that could be very frustrating. And yeah, I think the culture of where we work makes it a very big difference. I mean, we know one of the raisins people they've worked most often is a boss that's not aligned to how they work.

Like, you must get so many people coming up to you after presentations or workshops and going, I'm just not happy in my job or I'm not happy in this company. What questions do you ask them and what advice do you find yourself giving.

Like, you must get so many people coming up to you after presentations or workshops and going, I'm just not happy in my job or I'm not happy in this company. What questions do you ask them and what advice do you find yourself giving.

Well, that often does happen, and it usually happens in a toilet cubicle, So they kind of follow you into the toilet and then that guy loved what you said and they're like, can I just ask you a question? And it's the closest sort of safe room that they found, or maybe it's just because that's where I go after I present. I'm not sure, I've never done a study on that. I would invite people to come back to self and it sounds so simple and almost try it. What's not working for you? What's the pain point? And what are the barriers that are stopping you exploring and actioning change? And I don't expect that I'd get a short answer and cubicle to those questions. I don't know another way except to explore or you know, these things that drive us and motivate us, and then these things that create barriers. It's kind of the simplest way I know to think about the choices we make and the changes that elude us, and then to revisit you and I've talked about before, this sense of agency and accountability in our own lives. No one else is at this steering wheel but us, and it's very easy to point the finger out when really we might do better to point the finger at ourselves with compassion and curiosity, not blame. We're in charge, not a dress rehearsal.

Well, that often does happen, and it usually happens in a toilet cubicle, So they kind of follow you into the toilet and then that guy loved what you said and they're like, can I just ask you a question? And it's the closest sort of safe room that they found, or maybe it's just because that's where I go after I present. I'm not sure, I've never done a study on that. I would invite people to come back to self and it sounds so simple and almost try it. What's not working for you? What's the pain point? And what are the barriers that are stopping you exploring and actioning change? And I don't expect that I'd get a short answer and cubicle to those questions. I don't know another way except to explore or you know, these things that drive us and motivate us, and then these things that create barriers. It's kind of the simplest way I know to think about the choices we make and the changes that elude us, and then to revisit you and I've talked about before, this sense of agency and accountability in our own lives. No one else is at this steering wheel but us, and it's very easy to point the finger out when really we might do better to point the finger at ourselves with compassion and curiosity, not blame. We're in charge, not a dress rehearsal.

I love that as advice.

I love that as advice.

Step into the cubicle anytime I got more.

Step into the cubicle anytime I got more.

So good to chat to you about all things self, identity and work.

So good to chat to you about all things self, identity and work.

It's really great to sit here and hear, and you know, one of the things I love about our friendship and our connection. We have different ideas, we challenge each other, and I need that in my life. I know that in my friendships, and I think it's good pod chat as well. So thanks for having me.

It's really great to sit here and hear, and you know, one of the things I love about our friendship and our connection. We have different ideas, we challenge each other, and I need that in my life. I know that in my friendships, and I think it's good pod chat as well. So thanks for having me.

I hope you loved this discussion with Sabina as much as I did, and I know it's given me a fresh perspective on my own identity. And if you enjoyed this chat, I can definitely recommend that you check out our earlier discussion on burnout where Sabina asked me all about my burnout experience.

I hope you loved this discussion with Sabina as much as I did, and I know it's given me a fresh perspective on my own identity. And if you enjoyed this chat, I can definitely recommend that you check out our earlier discussion on burnout where Sabina asked me all about my burnout experience.

You can find a.

You can find a.

Link to that in the show notes, and I'll be getting Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer your questions. So if you have a question or something you'd like us to cover, send us a message.

Link to that in the show notes, and I'll be getting Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer your questions. So if you have a question or something you'd like us to cover, send us a message.

Using the email address in the show notes.

Using the email address in the show notes.

If you like today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

If you like today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

How I Work was recorded

How I Work was recorded

On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation

On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation