So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't put my hand up for a promotion or I don't set goals. That might be a little bit out of age.

So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't put my hand up for a promotion or I don't set goals. That might be a little bit out of age.

My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be discussing how you can identify and get in touch with your values to quite radically change your life.

My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be discussing how you can identify and get in touch with your values to quite radically change your life.

Values are like heading west. We never get there. It is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to.

Values are like heading west. We never get there. It is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to.

How does it show up in therapy when you're the therapist that someone is either not in touch with their values or is living out of alignment with them.

How does it show up in therapy when you're the therapist that someone is either not in touch with their values or is living out of alignment with them.

Usually it will be.

Usually it will be.

Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and I always think, how does a therapist go about picking the right therapist for them? What was your process?

Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and I always think, how does a therapist go about picking the right therapist for them? What was your process?

I mean, it's tough because the people that I would normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be able to see because they like they are my friends or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But for me, I also wanted to work with like this is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many of them.

I mean, it's tough because the people that I would normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be able to see because they like they are my friends or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But for me, I also wanted to work with like this is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many of them.

This person I've.

This person I've.

Seen on and off over the last couple of years, and she uses a schema approach, which is not my area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it, but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that I would use in depth. And so I really wanted to work with someone that was going to work from a different lens that I usually work with myself. And it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally, like as you would know, like the treatment approach is one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's probably more profound than anything else.

Seen on and off over the last couple of years, and she uses a schema approach, which is not my area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it, but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that I would use in depth. And so I really wanted to work with someone that was going to work from a different lens that I usually work with myself. And it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally, like as you would know, like the treatment approach is one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's probably more profound than anything else.

I think.

I think.

Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have to give my whole history all over again, and is it worth it, and like how many sessions do you give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it?

Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have to give my whole history all over again, and is it worth it, and like how many sessions do you give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it?

I think it can kind of go one of two ways. I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away, like in the same way that you know, like I think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone that's there between you and another person, I think we can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point of view, I would say at least two sessions because also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session, if I just get a really strong reaction, it could be one of two things, Like it could be like I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm having a reaction to this person not being the right fit. So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So I really had a very strong sense straight straight away. But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with, and sometimes it might take a few sessions.

I think it can kind of go one of two ways. I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away, like in the same way that you know, like I think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone that's there between you and another person, I think we can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point of view, I would say at least two sessions because also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session, if I just get a really strong reaction, it could be one of two things, Like it could be like I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm having a reaction to this person not being the right fit. So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So I really had a very strong sense straight straight away. But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with, and sometimes it might take a few sessions.

Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish a therapeutic relationship.

Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish a therapeutic relationship.

From the angle of being the therapist or being the client, I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as from a therapist point of view, you know, in an ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking at kind of the goals that we're setting and how that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months. But I think the question is, you know, what am I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving? You know, is this actually becoming more of a like that I really enjoy my time here, or is it this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And I think that if it's just like it's nice to catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand, you know, if it feels like you're going over the same ground again and again, and there's a sense of feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from early in my career or training, like it's all gris for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you and I, then it may be something that we can either work through or that it would be the best interest of them to see someone else. So this kind of you know, we can end treatment because we're now doing really well, or we can end treatment because it might be in the best interests of them to see someone else. For me as an individual, as a client, I think it would be like again, this kind of questioning is like what am I getting out of this? Is it serving me? Am I still on track to those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy.

From the angle of being the therapist or being the client, I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as from a therapist point of view, you know, in an ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking at kind of the goals that we're setting and how that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months. But I think the question is, you know, what am I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving? You know, is this actually becoming more of a like that I really enjoy my time here, or is it this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And I think that if it's just like it's nice to catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand, you know, if it feels like you're going over the same ground again and again, and there's a sense of feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from early in my career or training, like it's all gris for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you and I, then it may be something that we can either work through or that it would be the best interest of them to see someone else. So this kind of you know, we can end treatment because we're now doing really well, or we can end treatment because it might be in the best interests of them to see someone else. For me as an individual, as a client, I think it would be like again, this kind of questioning is like what am I getting out of this? Is it serving me? Am I still on track to those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy.

Having a chat or like checking in with them?

Having a chat or like checking in with them?

I think, yeah, good advice.

I think, yeah, good advice.

I grew up with a mum that was a clinical psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist. I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main reason for doing that is that I would see the work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients, so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end of the day, and when I assume, because I think if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and the other fields of psychology like we're very not really known about h and I always thought, how would I do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day, And I would love to know what is your process?

I grew up with a mum that was a clinical psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist. I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main reason for doing that is that I would see the work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients, so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end of the day, and when I assume, because I think if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and the other fields of psychology like we're very not really known about h and I always thought, how would I do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day, And I would love to know what is your process?

Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's also why I don't like working from home. I very rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I like to come into my office. So there's like a real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I am getting in the car and driving home, I make a very deliberate point of not having anything on the radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet. So then I'm kind of re entering the next part of my day where my role is different. So I'm coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles there might be. And I do have this This is probably very similar for many people. They have to get changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes just a normal close for any longer than a second. It's like I need to shed that part. So I think, like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely do like try and have a space of meditation or breath work kind of at a transition point after work that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened.

Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's also why I don't like working from home. I very rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I like to come into my office. So there's like a real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I am getting in the car and driving home, I make a very deliberate point of not having anything on the radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet. So then I'm kind of re entering the next part of my day where my role is different. So I'm coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles there might be. And I do have this This is probably very similar for many people. They have to get changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes just a normal close for any longer than a second. It's like I need to shed that part. So I think, like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely do like try and have a space of meditation or breath work kind of at a transition point after work that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened.

Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just going that sounds great, but like when is you doing that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like, how does that work?

Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just going that sounds great, but like when is you doing that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like, how does that work?

So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things.

So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things.

So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation after the kids go to bed and then before I kind of like join my husband and you know, I do what that would look like me being in my bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that. In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like, how do you have a flexibility really with this that even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I also kind of figured that, well, at least they know that this is a practice that mum does. That might at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my bedroom on my own definitely.

So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation after the kids go to bed and then before I kind of like join my husband and you know, I do what that would look like me being in my bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that. In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like, how do you have a flexibility really with this that even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I also kind of figured that, well, at least they know that this is a practice that mum does. That might at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my bedroom on my own definitely.

Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What does that look like?

Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What does that look like?

Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I do one of two things. I either do, I'll use a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation, also using an app which is very deliberate changing of the breath rather than just watching or.

Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I do one of two things. I either do, I'll use a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation, also using an app which is very deliberate changing of the breath rather than just watching or.

Noticing the breath.

Noticing the breath.

But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up. I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction.

But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up. I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction.

I love that what appsually your current favorites for.

I love that what appsually your current favorites for.

That, So I would use inside timer, which has the kind of bell practice, and then I also use which you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship. That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American and some of it is amazing. So I find that really very restorative.

That, So I would use inside timer, which has the kind of bell practice, and then I also use which you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship. That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American and some of it is amazing. So I find that really very restorative.

You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response.

You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response.

Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but a long time ago, I did an episode on what was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess, the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know, caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of I think that one hit a mark.

Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but a long time ago, I did an episode on what was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess, the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know, caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of I think that one hit a mark.

How do you personally think about that in your own life?

How do you personally think about that in your own life?

It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer, for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a pretty common experience. So that for me is like a work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty hard to not kind of move into that default mode, which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know, therapy has been really good for that, and also, like the practice of journaling can be like I have found that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation, of being able to slow down and notice a little bit more.

It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer, for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a pretty common experience. So that for me is like a work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty hard to not kind of move into that default mode, which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know, therapy has been really good for that, and also, like the practice of journaling can be like I have found that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation, of being able to slow down and notice a little bit more.

I think, are there.

I think, are there.

Any other practices or rituals that have served you well, particularly with maintaining boundaries?

Any other practices or rituals that have served you well, particularly with maintaining boundaries?

Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's like the taking of the breath, like, so just like that micro moment has served me well. I think of like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect at that by any means, Like it is very much, you know, something that I work on. I think also, like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in service of my values? Am I saying yes because like it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because I feel I should? And so that's something like that kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a cost to the energy I have for my kids, or for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself. So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries, it's it is primarily that slowing down piece.

Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's like the taking of the breath, like, so just like that micro moment has served me well. I think of like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect at that by any means, Like it is very much, you know, something that I work on. I think also, like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in service of my values? Am I saying yes because like it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because I feel I should? And so that's something like that kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a cost to the energy I have for my kids, or for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself. So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries, it's it is primarily that slowing down piece.

I think, Yeah, I.

I think, Yeah, I.

Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you give me a couple of examples of where you've had to use that lately?

Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you give me a couple of examples of where you've had to use that lately?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I got an email request for something a few weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions, like how am I going to create space in my calendar for this? And then I really thought about it and I was like, you know, like what is this in service of? And what is it going to cost me by saying yes? And I thought about it and then I was like, what would it be like to say no? What would show up for me if I was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done, but really the cost is not that great of me saying no. But I think so often like we just get so caught up in there the need for yes without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of the no.

So I got an email request for something a few weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions, like how am I going to create space in my calendar for this? And then I really thought about it and I was like, you know, like what is this in service of? And what is it going to cost me by saying yes? And I thought about it and then I was like, what would it be like to say no? What would show up for me if I was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done, but really the cost is not that great of me saying no. But I think so often like we just get so caught up in there the need for yes without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of the no.

Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess it's a good segue into values, which you write a lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I remember you did an episode and maybe this was a year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and you were talking about the value of health. And I've always thought that health is one of my values. But I remember you said health is not a value, and it really it made me rethink a lot. So I want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually really hard to identify them. And I think that most people are probably very out of touch with their values. So where is the best place to start? Really?

Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess it's a good segue into values, which you write a lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I remember you did an episode and maybe this was a year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and you were talking about the value of health. And I've always thought that health is one of my values. But I remember you said health is not a value, and it really it made me rethink a lot. So I want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually really hard to identify them. And I think that most people are probably very out of touch with their values. So where is the best place to start? Really?

Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think it can offer us like a bit of a gateway to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris, who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and at least that's us like a place to start to explore basically, what is it that I want my life to stand for? So how do I want to show up? And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a milestone event in many years time, and that at this milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to do a speech abou and the question is what is it that you would want them to say about you, whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is it that you would deeply like them to say about how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover the things that are most important, so things like you know, I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being curious or being creative. And so we can kind of use that as again as like a platform to really kind of get a stronger sense like how do I want to show up?

Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think it can offer us like a bit of a gateway to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris, who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and at least that's us like a place to start to explore basically, what is it that I want my life to stand for? So how do I want to show up? And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a milestone event in many years time, and that at this milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to do a speech abou and the question is what is it that you would want them to say about you, whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is it that you would deeply like them to say about how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover the things that are most important, so things like you know, I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being curious or being creative. And so we can kind of use that as again as like a platform to really kind of get a stronger sense like how do I want to show up?

I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like, how does it show up in therapy when you're the therapist that someone is either not in touch with their values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah.

I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like, how does it show up in therapy when you're the therapist that someone is either not in touch with their values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah.

Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if, for example, we might have someone that values let's just say, like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot. There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of going through the motions, and so it might feel there that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity, because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness, whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful, and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection.

Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if, for example, we might have someone that values let's just say, like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot. There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of going through the motions, and so it might feel there that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity, because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness, whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful, and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection.

Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you, as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out.

Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you, as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out.

I think it's both. You know, so some people will never have thought about values before, and some people may not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values, whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful, Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values, that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that can kind of open people up to feeling shame or feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think it can be both that we can have an awareness of our values or we can just be really disconnected from them. But where our behavior sits is another story.

I think it's both. You know, so some people will never have thought about values before, and some people may not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values, whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful, Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values, that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that can kind of open people up to feeling shame or feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think it can be both that we can have an awareness of our values or we can just be really disconnected from them. But where our behavior sits is another story.

I think we will be back with M soon, and when we come back, we will dive into her go to tool for working with your values and how you can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things that I've heard you talk about and you write about in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain what that means?

I think we will be back with M soon, and when we come back, we will dive into her go to tool for working with your values and how you can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things that I've heard you talk about and you write about in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain what that means?

Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we might hold values around being kind and being caring. So you would assume then that, like the active being kind is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and what only kind of came to like to me a few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind, I also value being kind to myself. And so that might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize and again, like tune in, am I showing out to my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or am I showing out to my values by saying no or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask.

Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we might hold values around being kind and being caring. So you would assume then that, like the active being kind is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and what only kind of came to like to me a few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind, I also value being kind to myself. And so that might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize and again, like tune in, am I showing out to my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or am I showing out to my values by saying no or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask.

Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no, that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting.

Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no, that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting.

Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I think there are times like I definitely have a value around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not being curious about my own experience but just being curious about others. And so that would be an example, because when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So that would be one example. You know, there could be values in there around like, for example, being respectful that I might hold a value of being really respectful of others. But when I deny my own needs, am I being respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense.

Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I think there are times like I definitely have a value around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not being curious about my own experience but just being curious about others. And so that would be an example, because when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So that would be one example. You know, there could be values in there around like, for example, being respectful that I might hold a value of being really respectful of others. But when I deny my own needs, am I being respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense.

Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me. It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know, I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions. But I feel like just in day to day conversations, I will walk away from so many conversations going I asked so many questions and I learned so much about the other person, but I don't think they actually learned that much about me, you know. And I realized, like I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with me was that everything is co created. And when I kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest thing to do when you're not happy about something, I always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute to that experience? And I do wonder like can you relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist, You're used to asking questions and being curious, but.

Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me. It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know, I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions. But I feel like just in day to day conversations, I will walk away from so many conversations going I asked so many questions and I learned so much about the other person, but I don't think they actually learned that much about me, you know. And I realized, like I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with me was that everything is co created. And when I kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest thing to do when you're not happy about something, I always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute to that experience? And I do wonder like can you relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist, You're used to asking questions and being curious, but.

Could you relate to that.

Could you relate to that.

And what do you do? What do you do?

And what do you do? What do you do?

Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to pay attention to other people and to tune in and to be curious and to ask questions and my like in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example, I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to divert to questions about what's happening for the other person, which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know, sometimes you could walk away and feel like.

Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to pay attention to other people and to tune in and to be curious and to ask questions and my like in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example, I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to divert to questions about what's happening for the other person, which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know, sometimes you could walk away and feel like.

Was that?

Was that?

How authentic was that? What was I trying to move away from by asking the question? And how much did they get to know me by me or deflecting? I think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're talking about, is like this kind of co creation here, what are we co creating when one party is receiving the other person is not.

How authentic was that? What was I trying to move away from by asking the question? And how much did they get to know me by me or deflecting? I think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're talking about, is like this kind of co creation here, what are we co creating when one party is receiving the other person is not.

How do you then, like after you know you like, you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution asking for a friend?

How do you then, like after you know you like, you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution asking for a friend?

Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really important and being able to name like in the moment, even like I do talk in the book and in the work that I do like, as you would know, like working a lot with that in a dialogue and being able to notice and name like that in a critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay, you can stay with this for a moment, or just kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the other person and just to notice and just let it be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here. But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized response which I never you know, I'm not getting this right all the time, but it's like an intention I think to try and slow down just to catch that and to use some kind of like noticing language.

Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really important and being able to name like in the moment, even like I do talk in the book and in the work that I do like, as you would know, like working a lot with that in a dialogue and being able to notice and name like that in a critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay, you can stay with this for a moment, or just kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the other person and just to notice and just let it be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here. But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized response which I never you know, I'm not getting this right all the time, but it's like an intention I think to try and slow down just to catch that and to use some kind of like noticing language.

I think I want to talk about some other ways to work with values, and one of the tools that you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like, what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah.

I think I want to talk about some other ways to work with values, and one of the tools that you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like, what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah.

So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye. We've got like the center circle, and then we have concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies, self care, for example. And what it invites you to do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye, you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not what people would be marking. Most often it would be that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye. And so the bigger the gap we get between where my behavior is and where I'd like it to be, usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example, like in parenting, it might be that your values around kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example, And so you may value this really deeply, but often you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And so in that instance, we might be marking our like where we are on that comfort zone further out from where we want to be.

So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye. We've got like the center circle, and then we have concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies, self care, for example. And what it invites you to do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye, you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not what people would be marking. Most often it would be that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye. And so the bigger the gap we get between where my behavior is and where I'd like it to be, usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example, like in parenting, it might be that your values around kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example, And so you may value this really deeply, but often you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And so in that instance, we might be marking our like where we are on that comfort zone further out from where we want to be.

That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like, over what time frame do you see that things shift?

That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like, over what time frame do you see that things shift?

Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly coming back to. But I think the thing about values is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So we're constantly in a state of change.

Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly coming back to. But I think the thing about values is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So we're constantly in a state of change.

But in terms of like.

But in terms of like.

How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The thing that I love about working with values is that you can show up to your values moment to moment. We don't have to wait for the right condition to do it, So you know, even if, like today, I actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values are like heading west. We never get there. It is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know, I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just get back on and then I see how I can head back in the direction again. I think in therapy what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never, like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading.

How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The thing that I love about working with values is that you can show up to your values moment to moment. We don't have to wait for the right condition to do it, So you know, even if, like today, I actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values are like heading west. We never get there. It is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know, I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just get back on and then I see how I can head back in the direction again. I think in therapy what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never, like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading.

Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion. Can you define what cognitive fusion?

Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion. Can you define what cognitive fusion?

Yes?

Yes?

Is?

Is?

Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together, they're stuck together. And if we think about this in terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought, let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough. Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true. We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them to be so true all of the time, we will find that that fusion for myself with the thought really directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't put my hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals that might be a little bit out of age, or I don't pursue things. And so we can see here where when we fuse with that thought, when I get really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior.

Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together, they're stuck together. And if we think about this in terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought, let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough. Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true. We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them to be so true all of the time, we will find that that fusion for myself with the thought really directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't put my hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals that might be a little bit out of age, or I don't pursue things. And so we can see here where when we fuse with that thought, when I get really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior.

I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question. How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse?

I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question. How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse?

Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having. And there are a multitude of ways in which we can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually think I put this in the book, but I don't know. If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo, they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as a young kid, I would always see the tiger just pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was all it was, doing the same track up and down. That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on the other side of the glass as this visitor to the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down, up and down, but I am not the tiger. And so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts, but I don't have to be driven by them, and we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So, for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure, I might say to myself, I'm such a failure.

Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having. And there are a multitude of ways in which we can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually think I put this in the book, but I don't know. If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo, they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as a young kid, I would always see the tiger just pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was all it was, doing the same track up and down. That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on the other side of the glass as this visitor to the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down, up and down, but I am not the tiger. And so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts, but I don't have to be driven by them, and we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So, for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure, I might say to myself, I'm such a failure.

How could I do this?

How could I do this?

If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh, I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure. So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice that there is a part of me that can observe and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness.

If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh, I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure. So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice that there is a part of me that can observe and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness.

I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once, just on.

I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once, just on.

A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing. So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing. I hear you. So it's often kind of like again, like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this. So things like that, I also do find there's an example in there of a very classic act intervention which is called leaves on a stream. And this is this idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream, a practice which we would do in far more death than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float down the stream. So it's just this practice really of watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully opening up to more choice around like what to do next, and also to even examine like what's called like the workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction? What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other ways here?

A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing. So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing. I hear you. So it's often kind of like again, like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this. So things like that, I also do find there's an example in there of a very classic act intervention which is called leaves on a stream. And this is this idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream, a practice which we would do in far more death than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float down the stream. So it's just this practice really of watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully opening up to more choice around like what to do next, and also to even examine like what's called like the workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction? What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other ways here?

I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having, and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis, I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all, you know. I remember when I was learning about act many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming back to that, And it's something that I've talked to a lot of clients that invent him as well, and I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful. And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious. So I always just keep coming back to that they're just words.

I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having, and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis, I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all, you know. I remember when I was learning about act many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming back to that, And it's something that I've talked to a lot of clients that invent him as well, and I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful. And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious. So I always just keep coming back to that they're just words.

They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have that we don't stick to. So like all of these mental events just like passing through the mind, but some of them are stickier than others.

They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have that we don't stick to. So like all of these mental events just like passing through the mind, but some of them are stickier than others.

Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you put a book out into the world, Like, what has resonated most with people so far? What have you found is stuck with people from unstuck.

Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you put a book out into the world, Like, what has resonated most with people so far? What have you found is stuck with people from unstuck.

I Actually, I think one of the things that's come out most commonly has been around the inner critic and like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard it is for us to work with self compassion. I think that has been something that's stuck out is that we know from the research this self compassion is so important not only for how we care for ourselves, but also like how we can really productively show up, but it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's probably the thing that has stood out, is that we all have this in a critic that can really knock us around and push us around in directions that takes us into a place of more suffering. And I think maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been like how we work with those emotions in a really compassionate way.

I Actually, I think one of the things that's come out most commonly has been around the inner critic and like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard it is for us to work with self compassion. I think that has been something that's stuck out is that we know from the research this self compassion is so important not only for how we care for ourselves, but also like how we can really productively show up, but it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's probably the thing that has stood out, is that we all have this in a critic that can really knock us around and push us around in directions that takes us into a place of more suffering. And I think maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been like how we work with those emotions in a really compassionate way.

It's been such a joy to sit down with you after listening to so many episodes you've done on The Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a privilege to sit down and chat psychology.

It's been such a joy to sit down with you after listening to so many episodes you've done on The Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a privilege to sit down and chat psychology.

It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it.

It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it.

I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M. And I personally think that if you are looking to get stuck into your values and trying to identify what are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise that she recommended. And if you want to learn more about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and links to that are in the show notes. If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.

I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M. And I personally think that if you are looking to get stuck into your values and trying to identify what are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise that she recommended. And if you want to learn more about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and links to that are in the show notes. If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.