Hi, I'm Conrad Mossel and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is Good Weekend talks a magazine for your ears in which we take a deep dive into the definitive stories of the day. Every week you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms host conversations with the people capturing the imagination of Australians right now. Before we begin today's episode, are you a regular listener to good weekend talks? If so, we'd love to hear from you about what you enjoy most. Which episodes are your favourites and why? Drop us a line in the comments section of the app to let us know how we're going and what you want to hear. Now, in this week's episode, we speak with Kimberley Moulton, senior curator for the First People's Collection at the Melbourne Museum. She's also an artistic director at Rising, the two week music, art, food and culture festival held under the moonlight in Melbourne, or Nahm, kicking off next week. Moulton is a Yorta Yorta woman from Shepparton and she talks to us about everything from the work done and never forgotten by a long line of local Indigenous leaders and activists to the pressing need to locate ancestral belongings, including priceless cultural totems in the British Museum and Smithsonian collections and bring them back home. And hosting this conversation about country, ancient systems of knowledge and exploring indigenous stories through contemporary art. Is senior culture writer for The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Kerry O'Brien.

Hi, I'm Conrad Mossel and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is Good Weekend talks a magazine for your ears in which we take a deep dive into the definitive stories of the day. Every week you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms host conversations with the people capturing the imagination of Australians right now. Before we begin today's episode, are you a regular listener to good weekend talks? If so, we'd love to hear from you about what you enjoy most. Which episodes are your favourites and why? Drop us a line in the comments section of the app to let us know how we're going and what you want to hear. Now, in this week's episode, we speak with Kimberley Moulton, senior curator for the First People's Collection at the Melbourne Museum. She's also an artistic director at Rising, the two week music, art, food and culture festival held under the moonlight in Melbourne, or Nahm, kicking off next week. Moulton is a Yorta Yorta woman from Shepparton and she talks to us about everything from the work done and never forgotten by a long line of local Indigenous leaders and activists to the pressing need to locate ancestral belongings, including priceless cultural totems in the British Museum and Smithsonian collections and bring them back home. And hosting this conversation about country, ancient systems of knowledge and exploring indigenous stories through contemporary art. Is senior culture writer for The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Kerry O'Brien.

Thank you, Conrad. And welcome, Kimberly. It's wonderful to have you here on good weekend talks.

Thank you, Conrad. And welcome, Kimberly. It's wonderful to have you here on good weekend talks.

Thanks for having me on the show.

Thanks for having me on the show.

So I wanted to start by asking you about, I guess, how important it is to have a First Nations voice, not just in an institution like Melbourne Museum, but across arts institutions, museums, galleries and also in festivals. Can you tell us about your focus and your practice professionally? And and I know that straddles a personal sort of curatorial practice as well.

So I wanted to start by asking you about, I guess, how important it is to have a First Nations voice, not just in an institution like Melbourne Museum, but across arts institutions, museums, galleries and also in festivals. Can you tell us about your focus and your practice professionally? And and I know that straddles a personal sort of curatorial practice as well.

Yeah, I, I work across museums, art galleries, festivals, and it's my curatorial and writing practice really is about culture and community. So I, I move across these spaces and I do, you know, I come from a strong family. We have many playwrights and academics and teachers and song men and women and people. And I'm really proud, you know, that that we are all very creative. And, and I think at its core, it's about education and it's about furthering, you know, and amplifying our people's voices and our histories. And I think for many years, for many decades, the narrative of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, culture, research around cultural belongings and museology has been led by non-Indigenous anthropologists. There's been huge waves of change of course, and there have been some incredible Indigenous people like leading that that have come before me. But it's so important that we drive this this space because our culture has been represented incorrectly. You know, we're still historicist, I think, in in art museums across the world as a culture of the past. Or our our art needs to sit within some kind of space of authenticity or, you know, western canon of, of what, what is contemporary, what is primitive, what is real, what is not, You know, all of these things. And I'm interested in breaking all of that down.

Yeah, I, I work across museums, art galleries, festivals, and it's my curatorial and writing practice really is about culture and community. So I, I move across these spaces and I do, you know, I come from a strong family. We have many playwrights and academics and teachers and song men and women and people. And I'm really proud, you know, that that we are all very creative. And, and I think at its core, it's about education and it's about furthering, you know, and amplifying our people's voices and our histories. And I think for many years, for many decades, the narrative of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, culture, research around cultural belongings and museology has been led by non-Indigenous anthropologists. There's been huge waves of change of course, and there have been some incredible Indigenous people like leading that that have come before me. But it's so important that we drive this this space because our culture has been represented incorrectly. You know, we're still historicist, I think, in in art museums across the world as a culture of the past. Or our our art needs to sit within some kind of space of authenticity or, you know, western canon of, of what, what is contemporary, what is primitive, what is real, what is not, You know, all of these things. And I'm interested in breaking all of that down.

There are a couple of examples, one of which I was really struck by you coming across in the British Museum. I think the shield that Captain Cook took during his first encounter or one of his first encounters with indigenous people. Can you tell us about that? Yeah.

There are a couple of examples, one of which I was really struck by you coming across in the British Museum. I think the shield that Captain Cook took during his first encounter or one of his first encounters with indigenous people. Can you tell us about that? Yeah.

I've been really fortunate over the last 15 years or so to be able to to do a lot of research internationally. You know, when I went to the British Museum the first time, which was I think around 2013 maybe, and I was there as part of this leadership program with the British Council called Accelerate. And my research focus for the month was to look at collections, southeastern collections in museums, but also the way in which museums and art galleries work with contemporary artists to renew story and to recontextualize colonial space. So I went to the British Museum. I was I went to the Tate in Liverpool. They were doing really interesting things with youth, and I went to the Museum of Transatlantic Slavery in Liverpool because I was interested in the way that they could communicate traumatic histories to to younger generations. So doing all this thinking and going into the British Museum at that time, the only thing that was on offer in terms of Aboriginal Australia or southeastern Aboriginal Australia was within this space called the Room of Enlightenment and and this is after the Enlightenment period of the colony and discovery and all of that, you know, grandiose imperial. Um, I won't swear, but, you know, time in history and this room, it's quite remarkable. Like there's this whole case and I was only back there last year doing more research and it every time I go, it kind of blows my mind. But this whole case on a man called Sloane, who was one of the, I think founders of the British Museum, but collected a huge amount of collections for the institution who was a slave owner. And there's this this case that doesn't really critically look at that. It just kind of it almost positions him as this, you know, great man. In fact, I heard a tour guide say he was a great man. But in this same room as, yeah, this case, which has the the loot of the frontier and the shield and the boomerangs that were collected by Captain Cook and Joseph Banks and this Google Shield, there's been a huge movement by the legal community and the first peoples that owned that and to repatriate that. But it was very visceral to kind of walk in and to see that the only representation of our people was this point of contact and this shield with a bullet hole in. And it's documented that Cook shot at the people on you know that that kind of beach. So that says a lot and you know since then I've been back to the British Museum several times and I've been able to have access to the Victorian collections, their southeastern collections, that there are thousands of objects that are in, you know, warehouses off site and not on display, and things are changing there, I think. But. I think that that's the pinnacle of of the imperial empire, right? The British Museum and that kind of the taking of things. That's not theirs.

I've been really fortunate over the last 15 years or so to be able to to do a lot of research internationally. You know, when I went to the British Museum the first time, which was I think around 2013 maybe, and I was there as part of this leadership program with the British Council called Accelerate. And my research focus for the month was to look at collections, southeastern collections in museums, but also the way in which museums and art galleries work with contemporary artists to renew story and to recontextualize colonial space. So I went to the British Museum. I was I went to the Tate in Liverpool. They were doing really interesting things with youth, and I went to the Museum of Transatlantic Slavery in Liverpool because I was interested in the way that they could communicate traumatic histories to to younger generations. So doing all this thinking and going into the British Museum at that time, the only thing that was on offer in terms of Aboriginal Australia or southeastern Aboriginal Australia was within this space called the Room of Enlightenment and and this is after the Enlightenment period of the colony and discovery and all of that, you know, grandiose imperial. Um, I won't swear, but, you know, time in history and this room, it's quite remarkable. Like there's this whole case and I was only back there last year doing more research and it every time I go, it kind of blows my mind. But this whole case on a man called Sloane, who was one of the, I think founders of the British Museum, but collected a huge amount of collections for the institution who was a slave owner. And there's this this case that doesn't really critically look at that. It just kind of it almost positions him as this, you know, great man. In fact, I heard a tour guide say he was a great man. But in this same room as, yeah, this case, which has the the loot of the frontier and the shield and the boomerangs that were collected by Captain Cook and Joseph Banks and this Google Shield, there's been a huge movement by the legal community and the first peoples that owned that and to repatriate that. But it was very visceral to kind of walk in and to see that the only representation of our people was this point of contact and this shield with a bullet hole in. And it's documented that Cook shot at the people on you know that that kind of beach. So that says a lot and you know since then I've been back to the British Museum several times and I've been able to have access to the Victorian collections, their southeastern collections, that there are thousands of objects that are in, you know, warehouses off site and not on display, and things are changing there, I think. But. I think that that's the pinnacle of of the imperial empire, right? The British Museum and that kind of the taking of things. That's not theirs.

There's so much we could talk about there. But I guess to focus on your experience with some of these items, you've been the first Aboriginal person to to see them in hundreds of years. I think at the Smithsonian there was a possum skin cloak. What if you can talk us through your experience with that?

There's so much we could talk about there. But I guess to focus on your experience with some of these items, you've been the first Aboriginal person to to see them in hundreds of years. I think at the Smithsonian there was a possum skin cloak. What if you can talk us through your experience with that?

Yeah. Um, yeah. I've had moments where I've realized, oh, no one's seen this since it's been collected. And actually one of those moments was in the Kelvingrove Museum in Scotland, and there were stone tools collected from Shepperton from the early 20th century, and no one had seen them since, you know, they were taken. And it was, you know, these were these were from my country. And like so many emotions that that come through, there's an overwhelming sadness. There's this this excitement as well. When you're in these spaces, seeing these things, frustration, anger, but also a sense of like, at least I can connect to them and say hello and care for them in a cultural way. Uh, and the, the hard kind of part of it is putting them back in the box and covering them with the plastic and putting them back in these locked cases and potentially never seeing them again. And maybe I'm going to be the only person that sees them for the next 50 years. And when I was at the Smithsonian, so I was doing a residency at Kluge through Aboriginal Art Museum, which is in Virginia, Charlottesville, and it's the only Australian Aboriginal Art Museum in the States, and they do really great work. It's a contemporary space. So I was having a residency there and I was going up to Washington to do research at the Natural History Museum, which is part of the Smithsonian, and they have cultural material from the southeast and they have a possum skin cloak. And now I wasn't the first person to see that, but there hadn't been many people and certainly not many Aboriginal people kind of engaging with it. Now they know what they have as well. And this is the common case in a lot of these big collections where there is a keeper or a curator of one collection and in this case the curator, she had been there for 47 years in that role and she's the keeper of the Oceanic Collection, which is the entire Pacific. And her area was Pangaea. So that's what she'd focused on that whole time. So therefore, a lot of these other collections get a little bit kind of left out and forgotten about. Anyway. So I saw this this beautiful possum skin cloak, which they they think is from around the Hunter Valley region of New South Wales. But it's the earliest cloak that we know of outside of Australia. So it was collected in 1840. This expedition, the Americas expedition in 1840, actually collected the foundation of the Smithsonian as we know it. So the couple of thousand objects that they collected from this expedition started the Smithsonian collection. Wow. Right. And this cloak is part of that. And it's it's absolutely beautiful. There's all these beautiful dancing figures on it in ochre and incised in the possum skin. It's it's almost as new, you know, it's a remarkable condition. And yeah I you know it was in this beautiful it's all cared for beautifully highest museum standards but it's in this big gray long tray and big drawer and she pulled it out. And, you know, she was very respectful. Let me have time with that. And then as we were closing the drawers, she said, time to go back to sleep now. And she set it out of care. But it was really disturbing to me because I thought, well, if it's going to sleep, then when is it going to wake up again? And what does that mean for all of these other, you know, collections of first peoples from all across the world that are here altogether or dislocated from country that are still in a drawer. Sitting in a drawer? Yeah. And gosh, I think you can actually see this online on their online collections. But yeah, you know, there are these moments of hopelessness in a way sometimes to where you're like, well, how you know what's next? And digital repatriation is not enough.

Yeah. Um, yeah. I've had moments where I've realized, oh, no one's seen this since it's been collected. And actually one of those moments was in the Kelvingrove Museum in Scotland, and there were stone tools collected from Shepperton from the early 20th century, and no one had seen them since, you know, they were taken. And it was, you know, these were these were from my country. And like so many emotions that that come through, there's an overwhelming sadness. There's this this excitement as well. When you're in these spaces, seeing these things, frustration, anger, but also a sense of like, at least I can connect to them and say hello and care for them in a cultural way. Uh, and the, the hard kind of part of it is putting them back in the box and covering them with the plastic and putting them back in these locked cases and potentially never seeing them again. And maybe I'm going to be the only person that sees them for the next 50 years. And when I was at the Smithsonian, so I was doing a residency at Kluge through Aboriginal Art Museum, which is in Virginia, Charlottesville, and it's the only Australian Aboriginal Art Museum in the States, and they do really great work. It's a contemporary space. So I was having a residency there and I was going up to Washington to do research at the Natural History Museum, which is part of the Smithsonian, and they have cultural material from the southeast and they have a possum skin cloak. And now I wasn't the first person to see that, but there hadn't been many people and certainly not many Aboriginal people kind of engaging with it. Now they know what they have as well. And this is the common case in a lot of these big collections where there is a keeper or a curator of one collection and in this case the curator, she had been there for 47 years in that role and she's the keeper of the Oceanic Collection, which is the entire Pacific. And her area was Pangaea. So that's what she'd focused on that whole time. So therefore, a lot of these other collections get a little bit kind of left out and forgotten about. Anyway. So I saw this this beautiful possum skin cloak, which they they think is from around the Hunter Valley region of New South Wales. But it's the earliest cloak that we know of outside of Australia. So it was collected in 1840. This expedition, the Americas expedition in 1840, actually collected the foundation of the Smithsonian as we know it. So the couple of thousand objects that they collected from this expedition started the Smithsonian collection. Wow. Right. And this cloak is part of that. And it's it's absolutely beautiful. There's all these beautiful dancing figures on it in ochre and incised in the possum skin. It's it's almost as new, you know, it's a remarkable condition. And yeah I you know it was in this beautiful it's all cared for beautifully highest museum standards but it's in this big gray long tray and big drawer and she pulled it out. And, you know, she was very respectful. Let me have time with that. And then as we were closing the drawers, she said, time to go back to sleep now. And she set it out of care. But it was really disturbing to me because I thought, well, if it's going to sleep, then when is it going to wake up again? And what does that mean for all of these other, you know, collections of first peoples from all across the world that are here altogether or dislocated from country that are still in a drawer. Sitting in a drawer? Yeah. And gosh, I think you can actually see this online on their online collections. But yeah, you know, there are these moments of hopelessness in a way sometimes to where you're like, well, how you know what's next? And digital repatriation is not enough.

No.

No.

And it's very interesting, though, because I spoke to her about loans, repatriation, not that it's my place to for that object. I would never speak for that object, but I'm always interested in the position of the institution and the curator. And really, you know, she said this is far too important to American history to ever let go. And that's a common you know, that's really the kind of the position of the British as well. Like it's wrapped up in legislation as well in London or in in England in terms of the British Museum. But it's around national identity and colonial power and history. And so these objects are a part of the that country's colonial power and history. That was very interesting to hear. I was in Switzerland last year doing research in Geneva and Basel, and they have a very different take because they sort of see themselves as neutral.

And it's very interesting, though, because I spoke to her about loans, repatriation, not that it's my place to for that object. I would never speak for that object, but I'm always interested in the position of the institution and the curator. And really, you know, she said this is far too important to American history to ever let go. And that's a common you know, that's really the kind of the position of the British as well. Like it's wrapped up in legislation as well in London or in in England in terms of the British Museum. But it's around national identity and colonial power and history. And so these objects are a part of the that country's colonial power and history. That was very interesting to hear. I was in Switzerland last year doing research in Geneva and Basel, and they have a very different take because they sort of see themselves as neutral.

Right.

Right.

But, you know, we know it's more complex than that. But I found that they had less of a national identity wrapped up in these objects and they were far more open to repatriation and loan and working with communities and building relationships. And it was less about holding these as, you know, possessions that must, you know, keep keep safe for the country's kind of history and more about or what's next, what's the next step.

But, you know, we know it's more complex than that. But I found that they had less of a national identity wrapped up in these objects and they were far more open to repatriation and loan and working with communities and building relationships. And it was less about holding these as, you know, possessions that must, you know, keep keep safe for the country's kind of history and more about or what's next, what's the next step.

I wanted to ask you about your great uncle William Cooper, who is a fascinating individual. In the 1930, he lobbied for Aboriginal representation in Federal Parliament, and remarkably, he was one of the first people to protest the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis in Germany in the 1930. Can you tell us a bit more about him?

I wanted to ask you about your great uncle William Cooper, who is a fascinating individual. In the 1930, he lobbied for Aboriginal representation in Federal Parliament, and remarkably, he was one of the first people to protest the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis in Germany in the 1930. Can you tell us a bit more about him?

Sure. So Uncle William is my great uncle. Great great uncle and our family were on camera and mission up on the border of New South Wales and Victoria on the on the Murray River River. And Uncle William, he. He left that mission in around 1930, early 1930, because he couldn't get an old age pension. Being on the mission. A lot of Aboriginal people from the Mission family and and other people that were up that way did the same thing to to receive pension to, to get off the regime. That was the mission at that time. And a lot of people moved into Footscray, into Melbourne, and that's where there was a real kind of movement of political activism with Aboriginal people here. And he was secretary and established the Australian Aborigines League, which was one of the first Australian Aboriginal political parties. And so he, yeah, it was really fighting for our people to have a voice for equality. He was petitioning the government to have a representation of Aboriginal people in Parliament and this was around equality. And so, you know, part of his legacy is also this incredible protest that he led after the night of Kristallnacht in 1938, which was, you know, this sort of persecution of the Jewish people. And it became very public across the world. And he saw that and he saw it as a human rights issue. He felt for for the Jewish people, because he could see, you know, that the same thing happened to our our own people. And he led a deputation into the city from Footscray to the German consulate, demanding that they stop the cruel persecution of the Jewish people. And this was the only recorded protest about that at the time. So yeah, it's there's a big legacy. And Uncle William, you know, he is definitely a hero of mine. And and I think many Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people even across the country and when I talk about Uncle William or Grandpa James and Cameron and the many leaders that have come off, you know, that that country, it's to recognize their enormous work in contributing to the political landscape to where we are now, to the nation and for people, you know, for the rest of Australia to really understand who our leaders are here. We know about Nelson Mandela. We know about, you know, Martin Luther King and all of these amazing civil rights leaders. But we have them in our own country as well.

Sure. So Uncle William is my great uncle. Great great uncle and our family were on camera and mission up on the border of New South Wales and Victoria on the on the Murray River River. And Uncle William, he. He left that mission in around 1930, early 1930, because he couldn't get an old age pension. Being on the mission. A lot of Aboriginal people from the Mission family and and other people that were up that way did the same thing to to receive pension to, to get off the regime. That was the mission at that time. And a lot of people moved into Footscray, into Melbourne, and that's where there was a real kind of movement of political activism with Aboriginal people here. And he was secretary and established the Australian Aborigines League, which was one of the first Australian Aboriginal political parties. And so he, yeah, it was really fighting for our people to have a voice for equality. He was petitioning the government to have a representation of Aboriginal people in Parliament and this was around equality. And so, you know, part of his legacy is also this incredible protest that he led after the night of Kristallnacht in 1938, which was, you know, this sort of persecution of the Jewish people. And it became very public across the world. And he saw that and he saw it as a human rights issue. He felt for for the Jewish people, because he could see, you know, that the same thing happened to our our own people. And he led a deputation into the city from Footscray to the German consulate, demanding that they stop the cruel persecution of the Jewish people. And this was the only recorded protest about that at the time. So yeah, it's there's a big legacy. And Uncle William, you know, he is definitely a hero of mine. And and I think many Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people even across the country and when I talk about Uncle William or Grandpa James and Cameron and the many leaders that have come off, you know, that that country, it's to recognize their enormous work in contributing to the political landscape to where we are now, to the nation and for people, you know, for the rest of Australia to really understand who our leaders are here. We know about Nelson Mandela. We know about, you know, Martin Luther King and all of these amazing civil rights leaders. But we have them in our own country as well.

We'll be back in a moment. But in the meantime, reviews help people find us. So if you like what we're doing, it'd be great if you could help us out. Just jump on your podcast app and give us a writing to spread the word and let us know what you love.

We'll be back in a moment. But in the meantime, reviews help people find us. So if you like what we're doing, it'd be great if you could help us out. Just jump on your podcast app and give us a writing to spread the word and let us know what you love.

You have just curated the biggest show of Indigenous art ever mounted in Victoria. The upcoming Shadow Spirit exhibition, which will take over the entire upstairs of Flinders Street Station as part of the rising festival in June. Shadow Spirit as a theme is about stories and stuff you've grown up with sort of around the dinner table and around campfires with family before that. I wonder if you can talk us through how you came up with the idea of Shadow Spirit, what it means.

You have just curated the biggest show of Indigenous art ever mounted in Victoria. The upcoming Shadow Spirit exhibition, which will take over the entire upstairs of Flinders Street Station as part of the rising festival in June. Shadow Spirit as a theme is about stories and stuff you've grown up with sort of around the dinner table and around campfires with family before that. I wonder if you can talk us through how you came up with the idea of Shadow Spirit, what it means.

It's been, yeah, a few years brewing in my mind, but informed by, I think, you know, my whole life and also that of many Aboriginal people, you know, and Torres Strait Islander people. We have these stories in our communities that we've grown up with and they speak to the spirit world or to metaphysics to to time and memory and the slipstream of time, you know, that we don't necessarily consider ourselves within a linear time frame, indigenous worldview. Uh, and these stories, whether it might be the story of the Bunyip or back home, we have a story of the Hairy Bekker, which is this hairy, foul smelling, creaky bone creature that will take children if they stray too far from camp. Right? There's celestial stories. There's we have something also called the min min lights, which is a thing across Australia, actually. And of these lights that may appear, that may kind of take you in the wrong direction or distract you from what you're doing. And then we have also obviously these stories of history that are buried that are in the shadows. And all of these things are systems of knowledge, their networks to communicate country respect of country, discipline to protect family and children. So I've always been really interested in these and they always come up with community, start talking, especially if it's late at night or if we're, you know, Yes. Around a fire or the kitchen table. And they're not they're not myths, they're not story tales or folklore or, you know, ghost stories. They're actually systems of knowledge. And that's, I guess, what I wanted to talk about. That's what I wanted to communicate. But they're also there's humor in them. There's lightness and darkness, but there's also some just really interesting creative storytelling. And our people are that I love. I love my people and their humor, you know? Yeah. And our ability to spin a good yarn anyway. So kind of thinking about all of that and this idea for Shadow Spirit came out of that, I suppose. And of course I'm informed by the cultural material that I work with that I connect to and research by the community that I'm part of and constantly working with my own family stories and combining all of that and thinking about, okay, well, what does an exhibition look like with something like that? And, you know, working with Rising outside of an institution for a contemporary arts festival has been just so amazing. You know, there's such a fabulous festival and we've come through the hard yards the last few years with Covid and everything. But talking with Hannan geared the co-artistic directors and see.

It's been, yeah, a few years brewing in my mind, but informed by, I think, you know, my whole life and also that of many Aboriginal people, you know, and Torres Strait Islander people. We have these stories in our communities that we've grown up with and they speak to the spirit world or to metaphysics to to time and memory and the slipstream of time, you know, that we don't necessarily consider ourselves within a linear time frame, indigenous worldview. Uh, and these stories, whether it might be the story of the Bunyip or back home, we have a story of the Hairy Bekker, which is this hairy, foul smelling, creaky bone creature that will take children if they stray too far from camp. Right? There's celestial stories. There's we have something also called the min min lights, which is a thing across Australia, actually. And of these lights that may appear, that may kind of take you in the wrong direction or distract you from what you're doing. And then we have also obviously these stories of history that are buried that are in the shadows. And all of these things are systems of knowledge, their networks to communicate country respect of country, discipline to protect family and children. So I've always been really interested in these and they always come up with community, start talking, especially if it's late at night or if we're, you know, Yes. Around a fire or the kitchen table. And they're not they're not myths, they're not story tales or folklore or, you know, ghost stories. They're actually systems of knowledge. And that's, I guess, what I wanted to talk about. That's what I wanted to communicate. But they're also there's humor in them. There's lightness and darkness, but there's also some just really interesting creative storytelling. And our people are that I love. I love my people and their humor, you know? Yeah. And our ability to spin a good yarn anyway. So kind of thinking about all of that and this idea for Shadow Spirit came out of that, I suppose. And of course I'm informed by the cultural material that I work with that I connect to and research by the community that I'm part of and constantly working with my own family stories and combining all of that and thinking about, okay, well, what does an exhibition look like with something like that? And, you know, working with Rising outside of an institution for a contemporary arts festival has been just so amazing. You know, there's such a fabulous festival and we've come through the hard yards the last few years with Covid and everything. But talking with Hannan geared the co-artistic directors and see.

Fox and Gideon Oversight.

Fox and Gideon Oversight.

Yes, Um, they've been really supportive of this idea and they're like, yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's, let's mount this, you know, big First Nations exhibition and let's make it national and let's, let's really put that, you know, here on the map in Melbourne in this very iconic colonial building and really amplify, you know, the platform for for this mob. And so, you know, I'm working with artists from the top end of Australia, from Yakama right down to Tasmania and everywhere in between. It was really important for me to to have a national scope for this exhibition because it is a national story, but also highlighting South East. Obviously that's where my roots are and I think within contemporary art, the South East, you know, contemporary Aboriginal art, the South east, you know, has has had a struggle within that space for many years. Going back to that conversation around what's authentic, what's real, you know.

Yes, Um, they've been really supportive of this idea and they're like, yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's, let's mount this, you know, big First Nations exhibition and let's make it national and let's, let's really put that, you know, here on the map in Melbourne in this very iconic colonial building and really amplify, you know, the platform for for this mob. And so, you know, I'm working with artists from the top end of Australia, from Yakama right down to Tasmania and everywhere in between. It was really important for me to to have a national scope for this exhibition because it is a national story, but also highlighting South East. Obviously that's where my roots are and I think within contemporary art, the South East, you know, contemporary Aboriginal art, the South east, you know, has has had a struggle within that space for many years. Going back to that conversation around what's authentic, what's real, you know.

It was an incredibly ambitious hit list that you had, but you managed to get, I think, every single person you wanted, which is wild, from emerging artists through to well-known established names. How does it feel looking at it coming together now in this space? I think the install is this week.

It was an incredibly ambitious hit list that you had, but you managed to get, I think, every single person you wanted, which is wild, from emerging artists through to well-known established names. How does it feel looking at it coming together now in this space? I think the install is this week.

Yeah, we started Monday. Right. It's an honor to work with all of them. And yeah, I had a wish list of artists. I have many wish lists of artists continually writing them, but I felt I wanted to include established artists and, you know, people that have been making art and being a part of our community for a very long time in that way. And I wanted to also pair pair them or not pair them, but like have included in the exhibition more emerging early career artists. Look, it feels so exciting. There's been other exhibitions looking at Aboriginal spirituality and stories. Of course this isn't the first one to do that, but on this scale, on this national scale, I think also a big part of this has been about supporting the artists to extend their practice. So we've actually worked, I think it's up to about 80 other artists, fabricators, projection animators, fabricators of sculptural works with the artists. So each artist has a large commission and within that, you know this there's several artists that they're working with within the Australian arts sector to help them realise their work. So they're gaining new skills, they're extending their practice, they're moving into other areas, sound and film, sculptural work in some cases, and there's a beautiful ripple effect into the industry.

Yeah, we started Monday. Right. It's an honor to work with all of them. And yeah, I had a wish list of artists. I have many wish lists of artists continually writing them, but I felt I wanted to include established artists and, you know, people that have been making art and being a part of our community for a very long time in that way. And I wanted to also pair pair them or not pair them, but like have included in the exhibition more emerging early career artists. Look, it feels so exciting. There's been other exhibitions looking at Aboriginal spirituality and stories. Of course this isn't the first one to do that, but on this scale, on this national scale, I think also a big part of this has been about supporting the artists to extend their practice. So we've actually worked, I think it's up to about 80 other artists, fabricators, projection animators, fabricators of sculptural works with the artists. So each artist has a large commission and within that, you know this there's several artists that they're working with within the Australian arts sector to help them realise their work. So they're gaining new skills, they're extending their practice, they're moving into other areas, sound and film, sculptural work in some cases, and there's a beautiful ripple effect into the industry.

It couldn't be more timely. It strikes me with the voice referendum coming up. I wonder on the show, though, how significant is staging it in Flinders Street Station and not a gallery per se, but that very particular space in Melbourne and and what it represents, I guess.

It couldn't be more timely. It strikes me with the voice referendum coming up. I wonder on the show, though, how significant is staging it in Flinders Street Station and not a gallery per se, but that very particular space in Melbourne and and what it represents, I guess.

I think for me, you know. Aboriginal art can be anywhere and it should be anywhere. And I think we, we lack a presence of public art in this city, you know, in all cities really. And although this is only for a few months within Flinders Street Station, it's just expanding on, on that presence within the city and outside of the white cube. It's been a real challenge, like an exciting challenge for me to curate in a non gallery space. It comes with its freedoms but also with its restrictions. Yes, you know, Flinders Street is a heritage listed building, so we cannot hang on the walls. We have to bring everything in. But it's quite an iconic building and it's been used as this civic space. You know, for the last 113 years. It's 159 years or 6969 years of station, 113 years of building. And obviously we've got over 2000 generations of cool and people, you know, laundry people but modern people like coming into this place and also living and being a part of this this country. It's their country.

I think for me, you know. Aboriginal art can be anywhere and it should be anywhere. And I think we, we lack a presence of public art in this city, you know, in all cities really. And although this is only for a few months within Flinders Street Station, it's just expanding on, on that presence within the city and outside of the white cube. It's been a real challenge, like an exciting challenge for me to curate in a non gallery space. It comes with its freedoms but also with its restrictions. Yes, you know, Flinders Street is a heritage listed building, so we cannot hang on the walls. We have to bring everything in. But it's quite an iconic building and it's been used as this civic space. You know, for the last 113 years. It's 159 years or 6969 years of station, 113 years of building. And obviously we've got over 2000 generations of cool and people, you know, laundry people but modern people like coming into this place and also living and being a part of this this country. It's their country.

It was a gathering space, I believe was.

It was a gathering space, I believe was.

Around this area. Yeah. And I mean, the CBD, there's no there's no coincidence that we have, you know, the stadium where it is and we have Federation Square where it is. These were prime pieces of land and the cool and people, you know, also use it in that way and respected it. And, you know, I guess had families for thousands of generations on this country. So when thinking about Flinders Street Station, I always think about those people first. And you know, it's still there. The country is still underneath these foundations. Like we obviously have Barong mar the river right outside our window. There's still a waterway that runs under Elizabeth Street that continues to flow into that, you know, river, the land is still there, the people are still there, and there's still a deep connection to to place and site. And then when we think about the building itself, you know, it is this very iconic building of Melbourne. It's it's one of the biggest, you know, colonial kind of buildings that I think referenced that time. The Royal Exhibition building has a similar feel, but it's been used as a civic space. There was a gym, there were, you know, running tracks on the roof. There's been lots of different like teaching of English and lectures, you know, the the.

Around this area. Yeah. And I mean, the CBD, there's no there's no coincidence that we have, you know, the stadium where it is and we have Federation Square where it is. These were prime pieces of land and the cool and people, you know, also use it in that way and respected it. And, you know, I guess had families for thousands of generations on this country. So when thinking about Flinders Street Station, I always think about those people first. And you know, it's still there. The country is still underneath these foundations. Like we obviously have Barong mar the river right outside our window. There's still a waterway that runs under Elizabeth Street that continues to flow into that, you know, river, the land is still there, the people are still there, and there's still a deep connection to to place and site. And then when we think about the building itself, you know, it is this very iconic building of Melbourne. It's it's one of the biggest, you know, colonial kind of buildings that I think referenced that time. The Royal Exhibition building has a similar feel, but it's been used as a civic space. There was a gym, there were, you know, running tracks on the roof. There's been lots of different like teaching of English and lectures, you know, the the.

Ballroom where people used to go and dance. Yes.

Ballroom where people used to go and dance. Yes.

I feel like working in that building, it gives me a similar sense sometimes to working with cultural material where materiality, space, place and material things have memory. And you you feel it in a different way, of course, but you feel it in that building. And so we're bringing these stories of, you know, first peoples memory and time and spirit into a space that has a lot of that as well.

I feel like working in that building, it gives me a similar sense sometimes to working with cultural material where materiality, space, place and material things have memory. And you you feel it in a different way, of course, but you feel it in that building. And so we're bringing these stories of, you know, first peoples memory and time and spirit into a space that has a lot of that as well.

I did want to ask you one thing I have heard again and again when I've interviewed indigenous people across mainly the arts and culture space, but some other areas as well, is recognition that I stand on the shoulders of great people who've come before me and it moves me every single time. And it is not something I've heard commonly from other, you know, other peoples. And I just wanted to ask you about that. I feel like it must be something you're taught. You know, I don't know. I'm just interested to know a bit about that idea. It really does move me. Yeah.

I did want to ask you one thing I have heard again and again when I've interviewed indigenous people across mainly the arts and culture space, but some other areas as well, is recognition that I stand on the shoulders of great people who've come before me and it moves me every single time. And it is not something I've heard commonly from other, you know, other peoples. And I just wanted to ask you about that. I feel like it must be something you're taught. You know, I don't know. I'm just interested to know a bit about that idea. It really does move me. Yeah.

Yeah. I think in our culture we're taught to respect our elders and acknowledge where we come from, and it is a privilege having the history and having the connection, you know, to, to my old people. And this respect is what we carry into all aspects of our lives. I didn't get here because of myself. I got here because of the people that came before me. That's my mentors that have been in the museum and museum, like art gallery space, my elders, my ancestors that fought for our rights. That's the reason I'm here. And that's important to remember. And I think there's a humility that comes with our people as well around, you know, knowing where we come from and who we come from and always acknowledging that because it's never, you know, we're part of a community. It's not an individualistic kind of approach to life. It's actually a community approach to life. So I think that's where it comes from. And yes, you know, it is you are taught that this is who, this is who you come from, and this is who you should acknowledge. And it's about feeling great pride in that and great love for that. Yeah, we do stand in, you know, on the shoulders of giants. Is that how it says? Yeah. Yeah. And in the footsteps of. Of giants. Well, look.

Yeah. I think in our culture we're taught to respect our elders and acknowledge where we come from, and it is a privilege having the history and having the connection, you know, to, to my old people. And this respect is what we carry into all aspects of our lives. I didn't get here because of myself. I got here because of the people that came before me. That's my mentors that have been in the museum and museum, like art gallery space, my elders, my ancestors that fought for our rights. That's the reason I'm here. And that's important to remember. And I think there's a humility that comes with our people as well around, you know, knowing where we come from and who we come from and always acknowledging that because it's never, you know, we're part of a community. It's not an individualistic kind of approach to life. It's actually a community approach to life. So I think that's where it comes from. And yes, you know, it is you are taught that this is who, this is who you come from, and this is who you should acknowledge. And it's about feeling great pride in that and great love for that. Yeah, we do stand in, you know, on the shoulders of giants. Is that how it says? Yeah. Yeah. And in the footsteps of. Of giants. Well, look.

It's been an absolute pleasure having you here and hearing your story and can't wait to see the stories of the artists you've brought together in the. Incredible show, Shadow Spirits The Dates, June 7th.

It's been an absolute pleasure having you here and hearing your story and can't wait to see the stories of the artists you've brought together in the. Incredible show, Shadow Spirits The Dates, June 7th.

It kicks off June 7th, the festival opens. So it's part of rising and the festival goes through to the 18th. But the show will actually go through to the July the 30th. Fantastic. And then we're touring it to Adelaide next year as well and hopefully some other places.

It kicks off June 7th, the festival opens. So it's part of rising and the festival goes through to the 18th. But the show will actually go through to the July the 30th. Fantastic. And then we're touring it to Adelaide next year as well and hopefully some other places.

Wow. Thanks again Kimberley. It's really lovely to chat. Thanks, Carrie.

Wow. Thanks again Kimberley. It's really lovely to chat. Thanks, Carrie.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age subscriptions Power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search Subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age. And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, write and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong Technical Assistance from Cormac Lally Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of Audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age subscriptions Power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search Subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age. And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, write and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong Technical Assistance from Cormac Lally Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of Audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.