Hey, Ari.

Hey, Ari.

Uh hey boss.

Uh hey boss.

Look at us. Huh? 3 p.m. right on the dot. The two Amigos, couple of cowboys ready to ride.

Look at us. Huh? 3 p.m. right on the dot. The two Amigos, couple of cowboys ready to ride.

They never miss a meeting.

They never miss a meeting.

Love it. I love when you do the cowboys accent and the finger pistols. Ah. Aanyway, Ari old chum, why are we always the only faces on this call? No-one has any respect for meetings since we let them work from home.

Love it. I love when you do the cowboys accent and the finger pistols. Ah. Aanyway, Ari old chum, why are we always the only faces on this call? No-one has any respect for meetings since we let them work from home.

I mean, it could be the timing.

I mean, it could be the timing.

And I think you can hear the inverted commas around the word work. Ari, my partner in crime, pew pew.

And I think you can hear the inverted commas around the word work. Ari, my partner in crime, pew pew.

Have you thought about rescheduling?

Have you thought about rescheduling?

It's like every person I employ, man, woman and child has somewhere better to be at 3 p.m. on a Wednesday? Something they'd rather be doing, some other life event that's more important, more appealing. Like where's bloody Gwen?

It's like every person I employ, man, woman and child has somewhere better to be at 3 p.m. on a Wednesday? Something they'd rather be doing, some other life event that's more important, more appealing. Like where's bloody Gwen?

School pick up.

School pick up.

Hm. What about Rashid?

Hm. What about Rashid?

Pretty sure he drives his mum to physical therapy on Wednesdays. He sent us that email.

Pretty sure he drives his mum to physical therapy on Wednesdays. He sent us that email.

Likely story. Mac?

Likely story. Mac?

Uh, he works part time. He has to stay with the kids.

Uh, he works part time. He has to stay with the kids.

Does literally no one want to work anymore? Unacceptable.

Does literally no one want to work anymore? Unacceptable.

We could always ask around, find a better time and reschedule.

We could always ask around, find a better time and reschedule.

Fine.

Fine.

I vividly remember the panic of knowing I was being charged a dollar for every single minute that I was late to pick my son up from daycare. But requests to leave work even five minutes before the official knockoff time were just pushed aside and ignored. Even though I was always 15 minutes early. I'm Rae Johnston and this is Getting It Right. A podcast from Jobs Bank. We're helping you design your workplace to attract job seekers, unearth the untapped talent market, keep those hires and accelerate their growth through your organisation or company. Andrea Ho spent many years working up the ranks at the ABC, helping them to create and build a more diverse culture. She's currently discipline lead at the Australian Film, Television and Radio school. Andrea, when we talk about unconscious bias within an organisation, what exactly does that mean?

I vividly remember the panic of knowing I was being charged a dollar for every single minute that I was late to pick my son up from daycare. But requests to leave work even five minutes before the official knockoff time were just pushed aside and ignored. Even though I was always 15 minutes early. I'm Rae Johnston and this is Getting It Right. A podcast from Jobs Bank. We're helping you design your workplace to attract job seekers, unearth the untapped talent market, keep those hires and accelerate their growth through your organisation or company. Andrea Ho spent many years working up the ranks at the ABC, helping them to create and build a more diverse culture. She's currently discipline lead at the Australian Film, Television and Radio school. Andrea, when we talk about unconscious bias within an organisation, what exactly does that mean?

It's really about the way that we as human beings relate to one another. We have ideas in our head based on our own understanding and experience of the world about how other people and situations work. But because we are limited in what we have seen and experienced, we form certain fixed views about people and we tend to carry those for a very long time. A way to explain them is thinking about people as stereotypes, stereotypes are a kind of bias. So very often we are not even aware that we have these kinds of biases, but we do, everybody has them. That's what unconscious bias is. The reason why we want to get over them is so that we make better decisions in the long run. And so the business of dealing with our unconscious biases is really important if we want to change and improve the way our workplaces work, and we need to start by accepting that each of us has unconscious bias and working with ourselves and our limitations to expand those.

It's really about the way that we as human beings relate to one another. We have ideas in our head based on our own understanding and experience of the world about how other people and situations work. But because we are limited in what we have seen and experienced, we form certain fixed views about people and we tend to carry those for a very long time. A way to explain them is thinking about people as stereotypes, stereotypes are a kind of bias. So very often we are not even aware that we have these kinds of biases, but we do, everybody has them. That's what unconscious bias is. The reason why we want to get over them is so that we make better decisions in the long run. And so the business of dealing with our unconscious biases is really important if we want to change and improve the way our workplaces work, and we need to start by accepting that each of us has unconscious bias and working with ourselves and our limitations to expand those.

What parts of an organisation or company do you see unconscious bias in?

What parts of an organisation or company do you see unconscious bias in?

Unconscious bias happens in all areas of an organisation, but the two areas that I tend to think about are leaders talking to their employees, their team members, and leadership itself. And the pipeline to leadership is an area which is clearly suffering from unconscious bias across Australia. You only need to look at board rooms and board makeup in Australia to show you that it happens to the very highest levels.

Unconscious bias happens in all areas of an organisation, but the two areas that I tend to think about are leaders talking to their employees, their team members, and leadership itself. And the pipeline to leadership is an area which is clearly suffering from unconscious bias across Australia. You only need to look at board rooms and board makeup in Australia to show you that it happens to the very highest levels.

And what about looking below the leadership level on a day to day basis?

And what about looking below the leadership level on a day to day basis?

You can see examples across organisations in big and little ways every day. So I'll just give some examples and some examples of how easy it is to solve those biases. So you need to do a team meeting and you need to do it at a certain time of day. Why don't you consult with your team and find out who's working flexibly and then set the meeting at that time of day. Don't set it at 3 p.m. if it doesn't need to be at 3 p.m. because one person is having to go and pick up their children. Why not set it at 10 a.m. or 11 a.m. It's a very, very easy thing to do. When you're thinking about growing the skills within your organisation, looking at that leadership track, asking somebody to act in another job, are you considering everybody on the floor or are you only considering certain people? So let's just say, for example, you've got a front line management position that's going to be vacant for three weeks because somebody is taking leave. Have you thought about the person who's working part time who's just back from maternity leave? Don't rule them out just because they are coming back from maternity leave and they're part time and they're caring for children. They may actually really want to be on the leadership track because they were before they had their child. And it is a good thing for them to be able to do. And so they are able to organize some care for three weeks and do that particular job. Don't rule people out simply because of the assumptions that you make about them. There's a lot of different ways in which we make assumptions about the people who we see every day. So something that you can do for yourself instead of saying, well, I think only these people will be interested in acting up in that particular job. Why not instead ask?

You can see examples across organisations in big and little ways every day. So I'll just give some examples and some examples of how easy it is to solve those biases. So you need to do a team meeting and you need to do it at a certain time of day. Why don't you consult with your team and find out who's working flexibly and then set the meeting at that time of day. Don't set it at 3 p.m. if it doesn't need to be at 3 p.m. because one person is having to go and pick up their children. Why not set it at 10 a.m. or 11 a.m. It's a very, very easy thing to do. When you're thinking about growing the skills within your organisation, looking at that leadership track, asking somebody to act in another job, are you considering everybody on the floor or are you only considering certain people? So let's just say, for example, you've got a front line management position that's going to be vacant for three weeks because somebody is taking leave. Have you thought about the person who's working part time who's just back from maternity leave? Don't rule them out just because they are coming back from maternity leave and they're part time and they're caring for children. They may actually really want to be on the leadership track because they were before they had their child. And it is a good thing for them to be able to do. And so they are able to organize some care for three weeks and do that particular job. Don't rule people out simply because of the assumptions that you make about them. There's a lot of different ways in which we make assumptions about the people who we see every day. So something that you can do for yourself instead of saying, well, I think only these people will be interested in acting up in that particular job. Why not instead ask?

So once we've identified the bias where's the best place to start trying to get rid of it?

So once we've identified the bias where's the best place to start trying to get rid of it?

That's a really interesting question and I'm not sure that I've got a full answer because it's clearly a work in progress all around Australia. Nobody's kind of cracked that nut in a large way. But I would encourage everybody listening to contribute to that change over time. One of the biggest challenges that organisations can choose to address and should choose to address is looking at their leadership pipeline. Another example of unconscious bias is sometimes in some organisations, some people think that if you are from a different cultural background, you can't possibly be a good leader. I get this a lot around being Asian Australian, that Asian people are really great workers, but they just don't have leadership and you just think well, entire countries of Asian people run perfectly fine and they've got leaders and they've got workers. So people talk about cultural fit; when we talk about inclusion, the idea is to broaden culture, not to narrow culture. So having a better understanding of what leadership can be and can look like as opposed to what it currently looks like is actually something which is really important. The structural issues that I have seen in organisations and I certainly have experienced myself are ones that organisations have to think about very deeply. And the biggest one is that people in organisations often think a lot about the pipeline to do with new recruits. Everyone talks about the pipeline for the next generation. So there's a lot of effort going on right now in many organisations to bring people of more diverse background into the organisation at an entry level. And then they will, it's assumed, slowly work their way up the chain. But this has been said over and over and over again, including through my lifetime where the stated objective was to have more different kinds of people at the table. However, what most organisations don't do is take a strategic approach to appointing leaders.

That's a really interesting question and I'm not sure that I've got a full answer because it's clearly a work in progress all around Australia. Nobody's kind of cracked that nut in a large way. But I would encourage everybody listening to contribute to that change over time. One of the biggest challenges that organisations can choose to address and should choose to address is looking at their leadership pipeline. Another example of unconscious bias is sometimes in some organisations, some people think that if you are from a different cultural background, you can't possibly be a good leader. I get this a lot around being Asian Australian, that Asian people are really great workers, but they just don't have leadership and you just think well, entire countries of Asian people run perfectly fine and they've got leaders and they've got workers. So people talk about cultural fit; when we talk about inclusion, the idea is to broaden culture, not to narrow culture. So having a better understanding of what leadership can be and can look like as opposed to what it currently looks like is actually something which is really important. The structural issues that I have seen in organisations and I certainly have experienced myself are ones that organisations have to think about very deeply. And the biggest one is that people in organisations often think a lot about the pipeline to do with new recruits. Everyone talks about the pipeline for the next generation. So there's a lot of effort going on right now in many organisations to bring people of more diverse background into the organisation at an entry level. And then they will, it's assumed, slowly work their way up the chain. But this has been said over and over and over again, including through my lifetime where the stated objective was to have more different kinds of people at the table. However, what most organisations don't do is take a strategic approach to appointing leaders.

If there are diverse people within the company, but they're not moving up the ranks into leadership, what steps or structures do you recommend companies put in place to make that happen?

If there are diverse people within the company, but they're not moving up the ranks into leadership, what steps or structures do you recommend companies put in place to make that happen?

That's a very common situation where people of diverse backgrounds don't always put themselves forward. So there may be cultural reasons and so those cultural reasons may be to do with that person's ethnic culture, but it may also be to do with their gender. Lots of us are socialised not to put ourselves forward if we don't think we can do the job 110 per cent. So just take into account those stylistic differences. If you think that person's ready, but they haven't put their hand up, why not ask them? Again, don't assume, ask. If you're the leader and you're shaping your organisation be proactive, not reactive.

That's a very common situation where people of diverse backgrounds don't always put themselves forward. So there may be cultural reasons and so those cultural reasons may be to do with that person's ethnic culture, but it may also be to do with their gender. Lots of us are socialised not to put ourselves forward if we don't think we can do the job 110 per cent. So just take into account those stylistic differences. If you think that person's ready, but they haven't put their hand up, why not ask them? Again, don't assume, ask. If you're the leader and you're shaping your organisation be proactive, not reactive.

It's really opening up a dialogue with your employees isn't it? And making them feel comfortable enough to come forward and say, look, this is something I'd like to do. How can you help me get there rather than them saying, well, you know, I'm not the kind of person that I normally see in those roles, so I'm not right for it.

It's really opening up a dialogue with your employees isn't it? And making them feel comfortable enough to come forward and say, look, this is something I'd like to do. How can you help me get there rather than them saying, well, you know, I'm not the kind of person that I normally see in those roles, so I'm not right for it.

Exactly right. And dialogue is such a great work because it involves two of you, di. It's not a monologue, it's not you talking to your staff, it's you listening to your staff, which is terribly important and a dialogue doesn't happen just once, it happens over and over and over again. So think about the formal opportunities you have to have a dialogue with each staff member. It's usually around appraisal or feedback in that formalised sense. But think about the informal opportunities too. Sometimes people are a bit scared in those situations or apprehensive, nervous is probably the right word to say. But when you're both fixing coffee at the kitchen, why not have a little chat there?

Exactly right. And dialogue is such a great work because it involves two of you, di. It's not a monologue, it's not you talking to your staff, it's you listening to your staff, which is terribly important and a dialogue doesn't happen just once, it happens over and over and over again. So think about the formal opportunities you have to have a dialogue with each staff member. It's usually around appraisal or feedback in that formalised sense. But think about the informal opportunities too. Sometimes people are a bit scared in those situations or apprehensive, nervous is probably the right word to say. But when you're both fixing coffee at the kitchen, why not have a little chat there?

Just don't send last minute impromptu calendar invites to meetings that say quick chat.

Just don't send last minute impromptu calendar invites to meetings that say quick chat.

Exactly right, because again, if you've been there, you know that, that conjures up all kinds of things in people's heads. Instead say, hey, this is just a formal thing that I want to set up on a regular basis. What you can actually do then is take some of that fear and apprehension out because people know it's coming every couple of weeks and they feel pretty comfortable or if you do set it up at the last minute, say what it's for. Can I have a quick chat to discuss X or Y? And then it takes some of that apprehension away and you can have a much more open and trustful dialogue with your employee.

Exactly right, because again, if you've been there, you know that, that conjures up all kinds of things in people's heads. Instead say, hey, this is just a formal thing that I want to set up on a regular basis. What you can actually do then is take some of that fear and apprehension out because people know it's coming every couple of weeks and they feel pretty comfortable or if you do set it up at the last minute, say what it's for. Can I have a quick chat to discuss X or Y? And then it takes some of that apprehension away and you can have a much more open and trustful dialogue with your employee.

I hope every employer out there listens to these tips. I think it would make for some very more comfortable workplaces. Let's put it that way.

I hope every employer out there listens to these tips. I think it would make for some very more comfortable workplaces. Let's put it that way.

I hope so too.

I hope so too.

Andrea Ho who's spent more than two decades working in the media helping to create an inclusive workforce. Don't forget there's more resources to help you with inclusive hiring and procurement on the Jobs Bank Resource Centre website. That's at jobsbank.org.au . There are plenty of practical tips there on the Resource Centre , whether you're a big company, a small business, a government department or a not for profit. And if you want to know more about unconscious bias in your organisation, you can also check out series one of Getting It Right. It's available now in all podcast apps and on the Jobs Bank Resource Centre . That's at jobsbank.org.au .

Andrea Ho who's spent more than two decades working in the media helping to create an inclusive workforce. Don't forget there's more resources to help you with inclusive hiring and procurement on the Jobs Bank Resource Centre website. That's at jobsbank.org.au . There are plenty of practical tips there on the Resource Centre , whether you're a big company, a small business, a government department or a not for profit. And if you want to know more about unconscious bias in your organisation, you can also check out series one of Getting It Right. It's available now in all podcast apps and on the Jobs Bank Resource Centre . That's at jobsbank.org.au .

I'm Rae Johnston. Getting It Right is a podcast from Jobs Bank and is produced by Dead Set studios. This episode was recorded on the unceded lands of the sovereign Darug, Turrbal and Jagera Peoples where it was also produced and edited and we wish to pay our deepest respects to their elders past and present. We ask that you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander lands that you're listening from.

I'm Rae Johnston. Getting It Right is a podcast from Jobs Bank and is produced by Dead Set studios. This episode was recorded on the unceded lands of the sovereign Darug, Turrbal and Jagera Peoples where it was also produced and edited and we wish to pay our deepest respects to their elders past and present. We ask that you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander lands that you're listening from.