It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers. Now Gooday. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families dot com. Do you thank you so much for joining me today on the Happy Families Podcast. Lately, it seems that boys can't catch a break, and in some ways they don't deserve it, at least some of them because of some of the challenges that are occurring. My guest on the podcast today is doctor Stephanie Westcott. Stephanie is a researcher and lecturer in the School of Education, Culture and Society at Monash University and just recently wrote a piece for The Conversation that has I don't know how else to say it's Stephanie. Would blown up be the right way to describe what's happened? I mean, you must have been doing so much media around what you've written.

It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers. Now Gooday. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families dot com. Do you thank you so much for joining me today on the Happy Families Podcast. Lately, it seems that boys can't catch a break, and in some ways they don't deserve it, at least some of them because of some of the challenges that are occurring. My guest on the podcast today is doctor Stephanie Westcott. Stephanie is a researcher and lecturer in the School of Education, Culture and Society at Monash University and just recently wrote a piece for The Conversation that has I don't know how else to say it's Stephanie. Would blown up be the right way to describe what's happened? I mean, you must have been doing so much media around what you've written.

Yeah, we've been doing a lot recently.

Yeah, we've been doing a lot recently.

Our research was also covered a few months ago by ABC seven thirty and so that generated a lot of interest too, which is good because they're necessary conversation.

Our research was also covered a few months ago by ABC seven thirty and so that generated a lot of interest too, which is good because they're necessary conversation.

So we're going to talk about this name that just keeps on coming up again and again and again Andrew Tate. I thought he disappeared. I thought with the whole trafficking issue over in Romania, I thought that was the end. But he keeps on coming up. You've done this research, and specifically, I mean Andrew Tate is a symptom of a larger problem. It's not really a conversation about him as much as it's a conversation about misogynistic views about women obviously that are infiltrating Australian schools and the way that too many teenage boys are being influenced by this ideology that is so heartful and so bad for them as well as for the people around them, especially women around them. Would you tell me a little bit about the research that you did. What was it, who'd you talk to? What did you find?

So we're going to talk about this name that just keeps on coming up again and again and again Andrew Tate. I thought he disappeared. I thought with the whole trafficking issue over in Romania, I thought that was the end. But he keeps on coming up. You've done this research, and specifically, I mean Andrew Tate is a symptom of a larger problem. It's not really a conversation about him as much as it's a conversation about misogynistic views about women obviously that are infiltrating Australian schools and the way that too many teenage boys are being influenced by this ideology that is so heartful and so bad for them as well as for the people around them, especially women around them. Would you tell me a little bit about the research that you did. What was it, who'd you talk to? What did you find?

Yeah, So we began this research because there was some news coming out of the UK that Andrew Tate had infiltrated schools in the UK basically, and that boys seemed to broadly be big fans of him and he was actually changing their behavior, and so we were curious about whether this was happening in Australia. So we put a call out to speak to women working in schools, and we were inundated with emails basically from women wanting to talk to us. We decided to speak to thirty and we managed to caption only every state and territory except for ACT, both primary secondary and every sector too, so faith based, independent and government schools. And we chatted to those women in depth about what they were experiencing and seeing in their schools. And our findings confirmed what was happening in the UK that was absolutely rife here as well.

Yeah, So we began this research because there was some news coming out of the UK that Andrew Tate had infiltrated schools in the UK basically, and that boys seemed to broadly be big fans of him and he was actually changing their behavior, and so we were curious about whether this was happening in Australia. So we put a call out to speak to women working in schools, and we were inundated with emails basically from women wanting to talk to us. We decided to speak to thirty and we managed to caption only every state and territory except for ACT, both primary secondary and every sector too, so faith based, independent and government schools. And we chatted to those women in depth about what they were experiencing and seeing in their schools. And our findings confirmed what was happening in the UK that was absolutely rife here as well.

Okay, so when you say it was absolutely rife, I presume you're talking about misogynistic attitudes. This is obviously going to be a little bit sensitive and for parents who are listening with their kids, depending on the age of your child, you may want to press pause and come back to it later. I want to ask you some specifics. What can you tell us about the experiences that women are having as they teach or work in other roles in education contexts, Like you said, primary school, high school, a whole lot, private and public everything. What are they telling you?

Okay, so when you say it was absolutely rife, I presume you're talking about misogynistic attitudes. This is obviously going to be a little bit sensitive and for parents who are listening with their kids, depending on the age of your child, you may want to press pause and come back to it later. I want to ask you some specifics. What can you tell us about the experiences that women are having as they teach or work in other roles in education contexts, Like you said, primary school, high school, a whole lot, private and public everything. What are they telling you?

So the first thing to say, and we say this in our research papers too, is that sexism and sexual harassment misogyny have always been part of schooling there's research dating back a few decades now on this, so we accepted that. But also what we noticed when we spoke to women was that the sort of frequency and tenor I suppose, of these kind of behaviors have increased. That women were saying to us that boys were sort of just starting to become quite hostile towards them, challenging their sort of their authority and position, quite often wanting to engage in very hostile debates about Andrew Tate and things that he says, very sexualized comments about women and their appearances, gendered slurs towards women and girls in the classroom, some violence too, physical intimidation and acts of violence like for example, a boy spat in his teacher's water bottling class, but actually really disturbing and disgusting statements made towards women as well. But these aren't just sort of one off raretis sort of what black they might have been that every single day for women in schools, and two of the women out of the thirty who we spoke to have decided to leave teaching because of this behavior and the sort of lack of support and thinking to themselves, I can't come to work and deal with this behavior every day. It's no one should have to, of course, especially without institutional support. Step.

So the first thing to say, and we say this in our research papers too, is that sexism and sexual harassment misogyny have always been part of schooling there's research dating back a few decades now on this, so we accepted that. But also what we noticed when we spoke to women was that the sort of frequency and tenor I suppose, of these kind of behaviors have increased. That women were saying to us that boys were sort of just starting to become quite hostile towards them, challenging their sort of their authority and position, quite often wanting to engage in very hostile debates about Andrew Tate and things that he says, very sexualized comments about women and their appearances, gendered slurs towards women and girls in the classroom, some violence too, physical intimidation and acts of violence like for example, a boy spat in his teacher's water bottling class, but actually really disturbing and disgusting statements made towards women as well. But these aren't just sort of one off raretis sort of what black they might have been that every single day for women in schools, and two of the women out of the thirty who we spoke to have decided to leave teaching because of this behavior and the sort of lack of support and thinking to themselves, I can't come to work and deal with this behavior every day. It's no one should have to, of course, especially without institutional support. Step.

When I'm speaking in schools, I unfortunately consistently hear from usually female teachers. Sometimes it'll just be whoever I'm talking to, they'll tell me that they know that it's rife conversations around boys as young as grade four who are making sexual sounds, groaning and moaning. Of course, when the teacher asks them what they're doing or what have they deny it's not what you think it is, and they've always got a story. They've got a way of getting out of it. You're not in your head as I'm saying this. Tell me a little bit more about what you found. How young is this happening, What kinds of behaviors are specifically being reported in those thirty interviews that you did.

When I'm speaking in schools, I unfortunately consistently hear from usually female teachers. Sometimes it'll just be whoever I'm talking to, they'll tell me that they know that it's rife conversations around boys as young as grade four who are making sexual sounds, groaning and moaning. Of course, when the teacher asks them what they're doing or what have they deny it's not what you think it is, and they've always got a story. They've got a way of getting out of it. You're not in your head as I'm saying this. Tell me a little bit more about what you found. How young is this happening, What kinds of behaviors are specifically being reported in those thirty interviews that you did.

In terms of age primary school teachers. We spoke to that sexual groaning noise is a really common thing that's happening. It was reported recently, I think in the Sending Morning Herald. I think that's actually separate though to what we're talking about. In regards to Andrew Tate, How's that I think that a lot of boys when they're making that sound, I would guess that.

In terms of age primary school teachers. We spoke to that sexual groaning noise is a really common thing that's happening. It was reported recently, I think in the Sending Morning Herald. I think that's actually separate though to what we're talking about. In regards to Andrew Tate, How's that I think that a lot of boys when they're making that sound, I would guess that.

A lot of them don't actually know what they're doing.

A lot of them don't actually know what they're doing.

I think some of them do, But I think some of these things spread in schools as sort of habits or provocations that I think specifically can be contributed to the accessibility of pornography without a doubt.

I think some of them do, But I think some of these things spread in schools as sort of habits or provocations that I think specifically can be contributed to the accessibility of pornography without a doubt.

But I think Andrew Tate is separate to that in that.

But I think Andrew Tate is separate to that in that.

What we suggest he is doing is actually almost radicalizing boys, training them deliberately, very deliberately doing this because it's income generation for him, recruiting them to share anti feminist and anti women ideas, to start to see themselves as victims in the world of the progress of feminism and of maybe changes to gender power relations in society, and that sort of victim position and sort of framing yourself in that way works very well for Andrew Tate. We've seen him weaponize that since being charged with a range of things in Romania. But boys are starting to vocalize these kind of views and beliefs to classrooms as well.

What we suggest he is doing is actually almost radicalizing boys, training them deliberately, very deliberately doing this because it's income generation for him, recruiting them to share anti feminist and anti women ideas, to start to see themselves as victims in the world of the progress of feminism and of maybe changes to gender power relations in society, and that sort of victim position and sort of framing yourself in that way works very well for Andrew Tate. We've seen him weaponize that since being charged with a range of things in Romania. But boys are starting to vocalize these kind of views and beliefs to classrooms as well.

My contention was going to be, and I was going to put it to you and ask you if I was on the right track or not. My contention was going to be that in the same way that Andrew Tate promotes a misogynistic worldview, so too, just the explicit content that young people seeing, whether they're in grade three or whether they're finishing high school, and both of those things combining and just creating this horrible melting pot of I guess, male aggression or dominance or an expectation that they can get away with this kind of thing. So maybe, before I go into what you're saying, would you push against that or you say that's a reasonable position to take.

My contention was going to be, and I was going to put it to you and ask you if I was on the right track or not. My contention was going to be that in the same way that Andrew Tate promotes a misogynistic worldview, so too, just the explicit content that young people seeing, whether they're in grade three or whether they're finishing high school, and both of those things combining and just creating this horrible melting pot of I guess, male aggression or dominance or an expectation that they can get away with this kind of thing. So maybe, before I go into what you're saying, would you push against that or you say that's a reasonable position to take.

I would say that's reasonable broadly. But I think what Angrew Tate is offering is slightly different in that he, I guess, vocalizers or intellectualizes, not that I'm calling him intellectual at all, but intellectualizes maybe feelings that boys might have about, you know, being a little bit disaffected about society, a little bit confused about how things are going.

I would say that's reasonable broadly. But I think what Angrew Tate is offering is slightly different in that he, I guess, vocalizers or intellectualizes, not that I'm calling him intellectual at all, but intellectualizes maybe feelings that boys might have about, you know, being a little bit disaffected about society, a little bit confused about how things are going.

Not quite sure where they fit.

Not quite sure where they fit.

And he offers a really neat and prescriptive narrative for how to show up in the world and how to be in the world.

And he offers a really neat and prescriptive narrative for how to show up in the world and how to be in the world.

And that is related absolutely.

And that is related absolutely.

To very explicit content that feeds into derogatory ideas about girls and women. They do work together, but slightly in slightly different ways.

To very explicit content that feeds into derogatory ideas about girls and women. They do work together, but slightly in slightly different ways.

So I think I'm really hearing you say, is that the Androw tape phenomenon, And if it's not him, it will be somebody else. He's not the only person out there with these views. What they're doing essentially is radicalizing masculinity and turning it into a masculinity is becoming a victim status in some ways, saying well, hang on now, the girls have got too much power. We've seen the sexual revolution change things to a point where there's a lack of balance and we need to reclaim that. Is that a better restatement of that.

So I think I'm really hearing you say, is that the Androw tape phenomenon, And if it's not him, it will be somebody else. He's not the only person out there with these views. What they're doing essentially is radicalizing masculinity and turning it into a masculinity is becoming a victim status in some ways, saying well, hang on now, the girls have got too much power. We've seen the sexual revolution change things to a point where there's a lack of balance and we need to reclaim that. Is that a better restatement of that.

I think that's absolutely what we're seeing, and even that's what women who we spoke to in our study reported as well, saying things like boys now view us women as their oppressence and they have been exposed to sort of these debates online about things like the gender wage gap and myths about feminism's goals and aims, and that is very much a radical or radicalized view about women and about feminism, And the effects of hearing that narrative is that you start to treat women and girls with suspicion and start to understand yourself in relation to them.

I think that's absolutely what we're seeing, and even that's what women who we spoke to in our study reported as well, saying things like boys now view us women as their oppressence and they have been exposed to sort of these debates online about things like the gender wage gap and myths about feminism's goals and aims, and that is very much a radical or radicalized view about women and about feminism, And the effects of hearing that narrative is that you start to treat women and girls with suspicion and start to understand yourself in relation to them.

Very differently.

Very differently.

I hear this sort of stuff and I'm just I know that I've got a PhD in psychology and all the staff, right, but I hear this and I just kind of think, can't we just be nice to each other. I'm writing a book at the moment about bringing up boys and my definition of masculinity, the working definition that I'm reasonably settled on. It might need some more tweaking as the book is refined, but the idea is that if you're a real man, if you hold your masculinity well and in a healthy way, that you make the people around you feel stronger and safer. And it's exactly the opposite of what you're describing. I mean, and it's not that hard to be nice. Well, it doesn't feel to me to be that hard to be nice. I've got a wife and six daughters. I'm nice to them, do you know what I mean? Just I find it infuriating. I'm sure that parents are listening to this, going how is this guy infecting our kids? When you look at this research, you spoke to all of these women, I'm sure that it wasn't just explored. Let's understand what's going on. I know that you've done some really smart work. In fact, we're going to link to your article that was in the Conversation, the one that you wrote with Stephen Roberts, who's a professor of education and social justice at MUNASH. As you've thought through this challenge, what do we do? How do you see us moving past this? How do we combat the rise of these radicalized masculine myths. I don't know what else to call them.

I hear this sort of stuff and I'm just I know that I've got a PhD in psychology and all the staff, right, but I hear this and I just kind of think, can't we just be nice to each other. I'm writing a book at the moment about bringing up boys and my definition of masculinity, the working definition that I'm reasonably settled on. It might need some more tweaking as the book is refined, but the idea is that if you're a real man, if you hold your masculinity well and in a healthy way, that you make the people around you feel stronger and safer. And it's exactly the opposite of what you're describing. I mean, and it's not that hard to be nice. Well, it doesn't feel to me to be that hard to be nice. I've got a wife and six daughters. I'm nice to them, do you know what I mean? Just I find it infuriating. I'm sure that parents are listening to this, going how is this guy infecting our kids? When you look at this research, you spoke to all of these women, I'm sure that it wasn't just explored. Let's understand what's going on. I know that you've done some really smart work. In fact, we're going to link to your article that was in the Conversation, the one that you wrote with Stephen Roberts, who's a professor of education and social justice at MUNASH. As you've thought through this challenge, what do we do? How do you see us moving past this? How do we combat the rise of these radicalized masculine myths. I don't know what else to call them.

They are myths.

They are myths.

The first thing that I would suggest, there's been some research that's come out of Ireland that indicates that Andrew Tate and sort of similar figures online their content. The algorithm shows their content to.

The first thing that I would suggest, there's been some research that's come out of Ireland that indicates that Andrew Tate and sort of similar figures online their content. The algorithm shows their content to.

Boys, whether they search for it or not.

Boys, whether they search for it or not.

So the first thing for parents is that they need to be aware that algorithms are changing and influencing how their children see the world, are informing it at the very least social media.

So the first thing for parents is that they need to be aware that algorithms are changing and influencing how their children see the world, are informing it at the very least social media.

Oh my goodness. Anyway, yeah, okay, So parents need to be aware of it.

Oh my goodness. Anyway, yeah, okay, So parents need to be aware of it.

First.

First.

What the catch is seeing in their feed is not what Mum and dad are seeing in their feed.

What the catch is seeing in their feed is not what Mum and dad are seeing in their feed.

No. I think it would be very interesting if parents would have a look at what is coming up in their children's algorithms on TikTok, especially on YouTube, and just see what these social media companies think a thirteen or fourteen year old boy is interested in and whether that reflects the person that they know. And I'm going to assume that it doesn't, because algorithms assume very limited and very narrow things about people in age and gender categories. So the first thing is to be aware of that and monitor it as much as you can. I know that's really tricky. I know that there's tension around parents and mobile phones, but we do need to take this really seriously. So I would suggest that our other recommendations are around conversation.

No. I think it would be very interesting if parents would have a look at what is coming up in their children's algorithms on TikTok, especially on YouTube, and just see what these social media companies think a thirteen or fourteen year old boy is interested in and whether that reflects the person that they know. And I'm going to assume that it doesn't, because algorithms assume very limited and very narrow things about people in age and gender categories. So the first thing is to be aware of that and monitor it as much as you can. I know that's really tricky. I know that there's tension around parents and mobile phones, but we do need to take this really seriously. So I would suggest that our other recommendations are around conversation.

So asking your kids, hey, do you know about this guy Andrew Tate? What are your thought thought?

So asking your kids, hey, do you know about this guy Andrew Tate? What are your thought thought?

Well, tell me about what you're seeing online? Is there anything you've got questions about? Is there anything I can explain to you or help you understand without judgment, without reprimand with curiosity, and allow an.

Well, tell me about what you're seeing online? Is there anything you've got questions about? Is there anything I can explain to you or help you understand without judgment, without reprimand with curiosity, and allow an.

Open space for those conversations to happen.

Open space for those conversations to happen.

Because we really believe that boys who are seeing this sort of dangers stuff online really need this content to be encountered by adults and pushed back on and criticized a little bit.

Because we really believe that boys who are seeing this sort of dangers stuff online really need this content to be encountered by adults and pushed back on and criticized a little bit.

Yeah, I fundamentally believe that parenting is a it's a moral endeavor. Right when you're raising kids, when you're socializing them, what you're really doing is you're taking them the morality that's necessary to navigate the world in a healthy way. And when I hear you say that about conversations, my mind immediately goes to the idea that silence is the equivalent of complicity. And that might be an overly harsh thing to say. It could come across a little bit shaming or judge. But if we don't have the conversations, then our kids are not going to get the information that they need from us. I'm glad you so that you said there was a third thing.

Yeah, I fundamentally believe that parenting is a it's a moral endeavor. Right when you're raising kids, when you're socializing them, what you're really doing is you're taking them the morality that's necessary to navigate the world in a healthy way. And when I hear you say that about conversations, my mind immediately goes to the idea that silence is the equivalent of complicity. And that might be an overly harsh thing to say. It could come across a little bit shaming or judge. But if we don't have the conversations, then our kids are not going to get the information that they need from us. I'm glad you so that you said there was a third thing.

The third thing is what we can do in schools.

The third thing is what we can do in schools.

And so we've already got respect for relationships education and that's fantastic and is intended to respond to these sorts of issues really well. But we need that to be implemented more comprehensively in schools and in schools all around Australia. At the moment, it's only mandatory in Victoria and in government schools in Victoria. The other thing that we're really pushing for is for the government to acknowledge that we've got an issue here with what's happening in schools, particularly around violence towards women and girls. So we want really firm language around that and a really firm acknowledgment that there's a zero tolerance approach to this sort of behavior in schools, and that protects both boys and girls. It allows boys to have better relationships with girls and women and to learn how to have really meaningful connections with them, and it protects girls from experiencing this kind of behavior but also from expecting it from the men and boys in their life.

And so we've already got respect for relationships education and that's fantastic and is intended to respond to these sorts of issues really well. But we need that to be implemented more comprehensively in schools and in schools all around Australia. At the moment, it's only mandatory in Victoria and in government schools in Victoria. The other thing that we're really pushing for is for the government to acknowledge that we've got an issue here with what's happening in schools, particularly around violence towards women and girls. So we want really firm language around that and a really firm acknowledgment that there's a zero tolerance approach to this sort of behavior in schools, and that protects both boys and girls. It allows boys to have better relationships with girls and women and to learn how to have really meaningful connections with them, and it protects girls from experiencing this kind of behavior but also from expecting it from the men and boys in their life.

Autonomy is one of those things that I'm hearing more and more is from parents who were saying, I want my children to be able to make choices, but they also need guidelines. They need to know where the parameters are. You can make choices in this space, but you can't step out of it, and that's a perfect example of why that matters. Stephanie. Really appreciate your time, Thank you for joining me on the podcast. Good luck with your research, and hopefully this moves the needle and makes a noise in the areas where it needs to most.

Autonomy is one of those things that I'm hearing more and more is from parents who were saying, I want my children to be able to make choices, but they also need guidelines. They need to know where the parameters are. You can make choices in this space, but you can't step out of it, and that's a perfect example of why that matters. Stephanie. Really appreciate your time, Thank you for joining me on the podcast. Good luck with your research, and hopefully this moves the needle and makes a noise in the areas where it needs to most.

Thank you so much for having.

Thank you so much for having.

Me doctor Stephanie Westcott is a lecturer in the School of Education, Culture and Society at Monash University. We will link to her article on the Conversation so you can read more about her research in our show notes. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if you'd like more information about how you can make your family happy, we'd love for you to check out our resources at happyfamilies dot com, dot a yu

Me doctor Stephanie Westcott is a lecturer in the School of Education, Culture and Society at Monash University. We will link to her article on the Conversation so you can read more about her research in our show notes. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if you'd like more information about how you can make your family happy, we'd love for you to check out our resources at happyfamilies dot com, dot a yu

Just

Just