Hello. My name is doctor Justin Coulson, dad to six daughters, author of six books about raising happy families, and when I began researching for my book Misconnection, it became pretty clear, very quickly that body image was an enormous issue between and teen girls. In fact, for women generally. The anxiety the body image causes our daughters is a byproduct of the world we live in, where women are judged on their appearance in a way that men simply don't experience. Well, my guest today is doctor Renee Engeln. She's the author of one of my favorite books, Beauty Sick, How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. Doctor Engeln is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Illinois, where she directs the Body and Media Lab. Renee's work has been published in numerous academic journals, and she's a regular contributor to The New York Times, the Chicago Tribune, and the Huffington Post. Her ted X talk from the University of Connecticut has racked up almost seven hundred thousand views on YouTube. So when you finish this podcast, look up that one as well. It's so worth watching and make sure you grab a copy of Beauty Sick, How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. It's a fabulous book when it comes to psychology and how girls and women view their physical appearance. I don't think that there's anyone more qualified than Professor Renee Engeln. I began by asking her what work in family life looks like for her.

Hello. My name is doctor Justin Coulson, dad to six daughters, author of six books about raising happy families, and when I began researching for my book Misconnection, it became pretty clear, very quickly that body image was an enormous issue between and teen girls. In fact, for women generally. The anxiety the body image causes our daughters is a byproduct of the world we live in, where women are judged on their appearance in a way that men simply don't experience. Well, my guest today is doctor Renee Engeln. She's the author of one of my favorite books, Beauty Sick, How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. Doctor Engeln is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Illinois, where she directs the Body and Media Lab. Renee's work has been published in numerous academic journals, and she's a regular contributor to The New York Times, the Chicago Tribune, and the Huffington Post. Her ted X talk from the University of Connecticut has racked up almost seven hundred thousand views on YouTube. So when you finish this podcast, look up that one as well. It's so worth watching and make sure you grab a copy of Beauty Sick, How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. It's a fabulous book when it comes to psychology and how girls and women view their physical appearance. I don't think that there's anyone more qualified than Professor Renee Engeln. I began by asking her what work in family life looks like for her.

Well, let's see, I'm a psychologist, I'm a buddy image researcher, and I'm a professor at Northwestern University, which is in Evanston, Illinois, just just north of Chicago, Illinois. And what else am I? I'm an aunt to a wonderful niece and nephew who came along kind of leader in my life, and that has been an absolute joy.

Well, let's see, I'm a psychologist, I'm a buddy image researcher, and I'm a professor at Northwestern University, which is in Evanston, Illinois, just just north of Chicago, Illinois. And what else am I? I'm an aunt to a wonderful niece and nephew who came along kind of leader in my life, and that has been an absolute joy.

There four and almost two.

There four and almost two.

Oh so they're really little. They're little.

Oh so they're really little. They're little.

Yeah, they're little.

Yeah, they're little.

And I've never I have to say this is going to be a horrible thing to say on a podcast focused on parenting, but I've never really liked babies. I find them kind of terrifying and sticky, and they don't hold their heads up, and they've always been scary. And when I knew my brother was you know, he and his wife were having children, I thought, what if I don't love them?

And I've never I have to say this is going to be a horrible thing to say on a podcast focused on parenting, but I've never really liked babies. I find them kind of terrifying and sticky, and they don't hold their heads up, and they've always been scary. And when I knew my brother was you know, he and his wife were having children, I thought, what if I don't love them?

But no I do.

But no I do.

I love them more than I thought it was possible to love. So it's been full of joy and also just interesting for me to learn how to connect with these these little people that have been such a good part of my life.

I love them more than I thought it was possible to love. So it's been full of joy and also just interesting for me to learn how to connect with these these little people that have been such a good part of my life.

Yeah, I'm totally with you on the floppy neck thing that, Yeah, that really bothers me. But for some reason, especially when they you're blood. I mean babies generally, you know, you see them in, they out, but when they blood, when they related to you, there's something that happens, is there.

Yeah, I'm totally with you on the floppy neck thing that, Yeah, that really bothers me. But for some reason, especially when they you're blood. I mean babies generally, you know, you see them in, they out, but when they blood, when they related to you, there's something that happens, is there.

Everyone said it would feel different, and I didn't believe them, but yeah, there's something powerful there that they're an extension of my brother, my love so much and and you. I've always been teased like I like tweens and teenagers. So about the time that children really start to drive their parents crazy, I'm always like, send them to me.

Everyone said it would feel different, and I didn't believe them, but yeah, there's something powerful there that they're an extension of my brother, my love so much and and you. I've always been teased like I like tweens and teenagers. So about the time that children really start to drive their parents crazy, I'm always like, send them to me.

I got them, Like, I really like that.

I got them, Like, I really like that.

I like their anger and their intensity and all that.

I like their anger and their intensity and all that.

So you can say that. You can say that because you're not the mum, right, The mums are like, ah, that'll be the cool artie, this will be fun.

So you can say that. You can say that because you're not the mum, right, The mums are like, ah, that'll be the cool artie, this will be fun.

Yeah, send them to me. I have a number of friends who say, will you talk to my daughter?

Yeah, send them to me. I have a number of friends who say, will you talk to my daughter?

And I'm like, oh, yeah, Sana, Yeah, game on, tut talk about how terrible you are.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, Sana, Yeah, game on, tut talk about how terrible you are.

Well, well, Renee, We're going to cover in this conversation body image because that's your area, this is your absolute fascination, and we're going to talk about how to fix the youngest children right through to tweens, teens, and even adults. The mums and dads who are participating in this conversation and listen to what we have to say. So a little over a year ago, I read a book that it just absolutely captured me. I wrote it on my list. I keep a spreadsheet of all the books that I read each year. I'm a little bit. It's just because my bookshelf's kind of full of books, and sometimes I forget which ones that I loved and which ones I didn't or what was in them. And so I've got this spreadsheet where I title author, what did I give it out of five, and a bit of a spiel about how I enjoyed the book. I'm so glad you think that's funny.

Well, well, Renee, We're going to cover in this conversation body image because that's your area, this is your absolute fascination, and we're going to talk about how to fix the youngest children right through to tweens, teens, and even adults. The mums and dads who are participating in this conversation and listen to what we have to say. So a little over a year ago, I read a book that it just absolutely captured me. I wrote it on my list. I keep a spreadsheet of all the books that I read each year. I'm a little bit. It's just because my bookshelf's kind of full of books, and sometimes I forget which ones that I loved and which ones I didn't or what was in them. And so I've got this spreadsheet where I title author, what did I give it out of five, and a bit of a spiel about how I enjoyed the book. I'm so glad you think that's funny.

So anyway, my dear, I'm getting a live book review, and the nerdiest way, ever, I like it.

So anyway, my dear, I'm getting a live book review, and the nerdiest way, ever, I like it.

This is who I am. Your book was a five star book. It was pretty much my book of the year. I think that one and a book by Todd Rose from Harvard called The End of Average Was that were my two books of I think it was twenty eighteen. I just loved Beauty Sick, which is the name of your book, Beauty Sick, and I gained a sense of perspective that I just can't describe. So I'm a male, I've never had the kinds of questions about my body that you describe women experiencing. Now I haven't told you something about me as well, and that is that my wife, Kylie and I are the parents of six daughters.

This is who I am. Your book was a five star book. It was pretty much my book of the year. I think that one and a book by Todd Rose from Harvard called The End of Average Was that were my two books of I think it was twenty eighteen. I just loved Beauty Sick, which is the name of your book, Beauty Sick, and I gained a sense of perspective that I just can't describe. So I'm a male, I've never had the kinds of questions about my body that you describe women experiencing. Now I haven't told you something about me as well, and that is that my wife, Kylie and I are the parents of six daughters.

Oh what are their age rangers?

Oh what are their age rangers?

Our eldest has moved out, she's married, she's in her early twenties, and then we've got one who is finishing her senior year of high school. She's about to be eighteen. We've got one who's sixteen in grade ten, and then we've got one in grade seven, one in grade five, and our baby is in her first year of school.

Our eldest has moved out, she's married, she's in her early twenties, and then we've got one who is finishing her senior year of high school. She's about to be eighteen. We've got one who's sixteen in grade ten, and then we've got one in grade seven, one in grade five, and our baby is in her first year of school.

Wow.

Wow.

So all girls. So as I was reading your book, I saw things in a new light. I just didn't know that females felt the way you described when it comes to their bodies and the pressure that they feel around their bodies. Even with my wife, I never saw that. Now. What's really interesting about that is when I first went on a date with her, I think it was pretty much our first proper date. We walked into a chicken and chip shop. You don't really have them so much in the United States. I've found where you buy the barbecued chicken and a whole lot of hot you call them fry, we call them chips. We've got these places everywhere. We call them things like charcoal chicken. And so you go in and you order your chicken, your chips, and your salad or your chicken fries and salad, and it's all really fresh, and go out and sit on the beach and eat it or whatever it might be. So I've walked in and I've ordered a chicken and a couple of dollars worth of chips, and then I looked at Kylie and I said, what do you got to order? And she thought that was funny because she thought I was going to share my chicken and chips with her, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm eating the chicken and the chips. What do you go to order? And she said, for the first time in her life, she was able to relax on a date because she could see that I didn't care what she ate, because she was never going to be able to eat even close to what I ate. In fact, she said, it was the first time she'd been on a date where she ate more than a little bit of salad.

So all girls. So as I was reading your book, I saw things in a new light. I just didn't know that females felt the way you described when it comes to their bodies and the pressure that they feel around their bodies. Even with my wife, I never saw that. Now. What's really interesting about that is when I first went on a date with her, I think it was pretty much our first proper date. We walked into a chicken and chip shop. You don't really have them so much in the United States. I've found where you buy the barbecued chicken and a whole lot of hot you call them fry, we call them chips. We've got these places everywhere. We call them things like charcoal chicken. And so you go in and you order your chicken, your chips, and your salad or your chicken fries and salad, and it's all really fresh, and go out and sit on the beach and eat it or whatever it might be. So I've walked in and I've ordered a chicken and a couple of dollars worth of chips, and then I looked at Kylie and I said, what do you got to order? And she thought that was funny because she thought I was going to share my chicken and chips with her, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm eating the chicken and the chips. What do you go to order? And she said, for the first time in her life, she was able to relax on a date because she could see that I didn't care what she ate, because she was never going to be able to eat even close to what I ate. In fact, she said, it was the first time she'd been on a date where she ate more than a little bit of salad.

I'll just have a salad, right.

I'll just have a salad, right.

So many women they go home hungry and then they eat in private afterwards.

So many women they go home hungry and then they eat in private afterwards.

And your book kind of opened up this world of what it must be like to be female and to be worried about body all the time. Now, as it happened, as I was reading your book, I was writing a book about teen girls, and it influenced the questions that I asked them in the way that I was able to write about their answers. And I found it just so helpful and so extraordinary. But in the introduction of your book, you state, and I quote, so many young women today are strikingly bold in important areas of their lives, but still crumble in front of the mirror. They fight so hard to be treated with respect, but seem at least at times, to be willing to trade it all in an instant if they could only remake their physical appearance. And then you give an answer to the question of why that is, And this is an image for one of a better word, or maybe it's the perfect word that really sticks throughout the entire book. You say, quote, we may no longer play dress ups and pose in front of the mirror the way young girls do. But I worry that's only because we've internalized that mirror, we never actually left it behind. I mean, that is so powerful. Can you talk about this idea that the mirror is on the inside.

And your book kind of opened up this world of what it must be like to be female and to be worried about body all the time. Now, as it happened, as I was reading your book, I was writing a book about teen girls, and it influenced the questions that I asked them in the way that I was able to write about their answers. And I found it just so helpful and so extraordinary. But in the introduction of your book, you state, and I quote, so many young women today are strikingly bold in important areas of their lives, but still crumble in front of the mirror. They fight so hard to be treated with respect, but seem at least at times, to be willing to trade it all in an instant if they could only remake their physical appearance. And then you give an answer to the question of why that is, And this is an image for one of a better word, or maybe it's the perfect word that really sticks throughout the entire book. You say, quote, we may no longer play dress ups and pose in front of the mirror the way young girls do. But I worry that's only because we've internalized that mirror, we never actually left it behind. I mean, that is so powerful. Can you talk about this idea that the mirror is on the inside.

This is a This is a big paradox that I think a lot of people are not sure how to wrestle with because in many ways, we've been sold a bill of goods.

This is a This is a big paradox that I think a lot of people are not sure how to wrestle with because in many ways, we've been sold a bill of goods.

Right.

Right.

We've got these generations of young women who are like, I can do anything and I can be anything.

We've got these generations of young women who are like, I can do anything and I can be anything.

And what we've seen is a co optation of that sense of power to sell them on beauty products and diet plans and tutorials and this.

And what we've seen is a co optation of that sense of power to sell them on beauty products and diet plans and tutorials and this.

World that is completely obsessed with how they look.

World that is completely obsessed with how they look.

And we've sold it as empowering, right, which is which is insane and what happens is that we've gone from having a culture that's always looking at women, that's always commenting on how they look. We've gone from that, from that coming from the outside to a point where we've internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So I try to stay away from academic jargon, but the there's a term that I always need to use, even though it's jargon, which is self objectification.

And we've sold it as empowering, right, which is which is insane and what happens is that we've gone from having a culture that's always looking at women, that's always commenting on how they look. We've gone from that, from that coming from the outside to a point where we've internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So I try to stay away from academic jargon, but the there's a term that I always need to use, even though it's jargon, which is self objectification.

Right.

Right.

So the idea is if the world treats you like an object long enough and with enough intensity that eventually you see yourself that way. Right, You don't need to be looking in the mirror because it's in your head, and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware. It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times. It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent with your values. So that's what I mean when I say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say. This is not something wrong with individual girls and women. It's something wrong with our culture.

So the idea is if the world treats you like an object long enough and with enough intensity that eventually you see yourself that way. Right, You don't need to be looking in the mirror because it's in your head, and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware. It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times. It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent with your values. So that's what I mean when I say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say. This is not something wrong with individual girls and women. It's something wrong with our culture.

Well, let's start with the culture. In fact, no, we might come to the cultural stuff in just a few seconds. I want to talk about this beauty sickness. First of all, let's talk about young children, young girls, because when I was reading in Beauty sick you set the stage by starting with the youngest about children. Let's say around age five, and you cite some research that talks about how five year olds feel about their bodies. Five year old girls.

Well, let's start with the culture. In fact, no, we might come to the cultural stuff in just a few seconds. I want to talk about this beauty sickness. First of all, let's talk about young children, young girls, because when I was reading in Beauty sick you set the stage by starting with the youngest about children. Let's say around age five, and you cite some research that talks about how five year olds feel about their bodies. Five year old girls.

There's a pretty large survey found that about thirty five percent of five year old girls are already saying that they at least sometimes engage in dietary restraint. Now, I want to be clear that five year olds don't understand what dieting actually is, right, So when a five year old tells you that she's dieting, what she's telling you is that she's already learned that this is what women do, right, that this is part of being a grown up, this is something you think about. All of these young girls are already telling us close to third saying that they're comparing their bodies to women and girls they see in cartoons and movies and television programs. So they're at this really young age where they're just learning to use their bodies. I'm not a developmental psychologist by training. I focus mostly on teenagers and adults. I don't I'm not super expert about young children. So when I started writing this book, I actually just did some basic research on the developmental stages for children. And one of the things that really threw me and I read about this in the book is I asked, well, okay, well, what are five year olds supposed to be doing? Like what marks where a five year old is? And one of the things that was listed was learning how to properly use utensils a spoon and fork, And I thought, these are kids that don't even necessarily know how to use a fork particularly well, and they're already worried about dieting, hasn't even gotten great at getting the food into their mouth yet, and they're already trying to keep it out.

There's a pretty large survey found that about thirty five percent of five year old girls are already saying that they at least sometimes engage in dietary restraint. Now, I want to be clear that five year olds don't understand what dieting actually is, right, So when a five year old tells you that she's dieting, what she's telling you is that she's already learned that this is what women do, right, that this is part of being a grown up, this is something you think about. All of these young girls are already telling us close to third saying that they're comparing their bodies to women and girls they see in cartoons and movies and television programs. So they're at this really young age where they're just learning to use their bodies. I'm not a developmental psychologist by training. I focus mostly on teenagers and adults. I don't I'm not super expert about young children. So when I started writing this book, I actually just did some basic research on the developmental stages for children. And one of the things that really threw me and I read about this in the book is I asked, well, okay, well, what are five year olds supposed to be doing? Like what marks where a five year old is? And one of the things that was listed was learning how to properly use utensils a spoon and fork, And I thought, these are kids that don't even necessarily know how to use a fork particularly well, and they're already worried about dieting, hasn't even gotten great at getting the food into their mouth yet, and they're already trying to keep it out.

It's it's heartbreaking, right.

It's it's heartbreaking, right.

It suggests that what's happening is that a lot of families are transmitting values to their young daughters that they don't mean to transmit.

It suggests that what's happening is that a lot of families are transmitting values to their young daughters that they don't mean to transmit.

I think that's a lot of what's happening.

I think that's a lot of what's happening.

Yeah, and I appreciate what you've said there at the end, that parents will intentioned and they don't even know very often that these values are being passed on to the next generation from that tiny, tiny age. I wonder how much of it is children actually being unhappy with their bodies versus just doing what they're seeing happen in the environ Mum's always talking about the diet or Dad's always talking about the diet, and so therefore I'm supposed to be on a diet. I don't even know what a diet is, but I remember when my little ones, and in fact, I've got some video footage of my sisters. I've got twin sisters who are a few years younger than me, and I've got some really great footage of them at about the age of four or five, and they're running around the swimming pool. And the way I describe it is they're running around. They're not wearing any tops because they're only four or five, you know, they're little. They've got their little bikini bottoms on or the little you know, their little swimwear bottoms on, and they've got what I would only describe as sticky addy tummies, because you know how little kids, they've got the sticky addy tummy and they're completely uninterested in what they look because they look like because they're so absorbed in the moment. They're so caught up in it, and I kind of think, isn't that what it's supposed to be?

Yeah, and I appreciate what you've said there at the end, that parents will intentioned and they don't even know very often that these values are being passed on to the next generation from that tiny, tiny age. I wonder how much of it is children actually being unhappy with their bodies versus just doing what they're seeing happen in the environ Mum's always talking about the diet or Dad's always talking about the diet, and so therefore I'm supposed to be on a diet. I don't even know what a diet is, but I remember when my little ones, and in fact, I've got some video footage of my sisters. I've got twin sisters who are a few years younger than me, and I've got some really great footage of them at about the age of four or five, and they're running around the swimming pool. And the way I describe it is they're running around. They're not wearing any tops because they're only four or five, you know, they're little. They've got their little bikini bottoms on or the little you know, their little swimwear bottoms on, and they've got what I would only describe as sticky addy tummies, because you know how little kids, they've got the sticky addy tummy and they're completely uninterested in what they look because they look like because they're so absorbed in the moment. They're so caught up in it, and I kind of think, isn't that what it's supposed to be?

Yeah, it's I mean, my four year old niece loves to show me. We talk only on FaceTime now because we are still locked down due to COVID, but she loves to lift up her shirt show me her stomach, right and kind of like grab it and move it around. And I get kind of sad already for the day that.

Yeah, it's I mean, my four year old niece loves to show me. We talk only on FaceTime now because we are still locked down due to COVID, but she loves to lift up her shirt show me her stomach, right and kind of like grab it and move it around. And I get kind of sad already for the day that.

She's ashamed of her stomach.

She's ashamed of her stomach.

And you might think, oh, that day won't necessarily come, and I think, yeah, it will, right, We haven't.

And you might think, oh, that day won't necessarily come, and I think, yeah, it will, right, We haven't.

We haven't really found a way to prevent that for our girls. Yet.

We haven't really found a way to prevent that for our girls. Yet.

It may not be all the time, and it may that be that it may not be that bad, but you can bet there's a really good shot that she's going to become a tween, probably maybe not until a teen, who doesn't like her stomach anymore. And so that joy she has in her body now, I wish she could keep it longer. I think it's it's it's amazing. It's important too. In learning how to use your body without fear, right and in learning how to really inhabit your body as a doing thing instead of as an object. But even parents who meanwhile are already tamping this down in young girls that sort of bodily joy so partially with comments, right when we say things like sit like a lady. Partially And this is my big beef lately, by dressing girls and clothing that doesn't allow them to move. If this is a thing parents do, and I don't think it's it's it comes from poor intensions at all, right, But there's this temptation to put girls in in dresses and tights and things that make it really hard to crawl and jump. Are things that where you're more likely to tell them to be careful, not to get dirty, to sit nicely.

It may not be all the time, and it may that be that it may not be that bad, but you can bet there's a really good shot that she's going to become a tween, probably maybe not until a teen, who doesn't like her stomach anymore. And so that joy she has in her body now, I wish she could keep it longer. I think it's it's it's amazing. It's important too. In learning how to use your body without fear, right and in learning how to really inhabit your body as a doing thing instead of as an object. But even parents who meanwhile are already tamping this down in young girls that sort of bodily joy so partially with comments, right when we say things like sit like a lady. Partially And this is my big beef lately, by dressing girls and clothing that doesn't allow them to move. If this is a thing parents do, and I don't think it's it's it comes from poor intensions at all, right, But there's this temptation to put girls in in dresses and tights and things that make it really hard to crawl and jump. Are things that where you're more likely to tell them to be careful, not to get dirty, to sit nicely.

Just on that there's a there's a movement increasing in Australia. So we, unlike America, all of our schools, almost all of our schools insist that children wear a school uniform to school. But what typically happens is the boys wearing a shirt and shorts. The girls will in many cases be wearing a dress, or they'll be wearing a skirt, or they'll be wearing some item of clothing that makes movement a little bit more restrictive if they want to be I feel uncomfortable even saying the word now that we're having this conversation, I was going to say, if they want to be more boisterous, but let's change that too. If they want to be more active, it's very, very challenging for them to do that in a way that would conserve a sense of modesty, because they're wearing dresses and they don't want to be flashing their undies all the backside to everybody. And so we've had this conversation building in Australia over the last year two, maybe even three years, where schools are now starting to recognize that perhaps it's okay for girls to wear whatever they want, including comfortable shorts, so long as it's within the school uniform set up like this.

Just on that there's a there's a movement increasing in Australia. So we, unlike America, all of our schools, almost all of our schools insist that children wear a school uniform to school. But what typically happens is the boys wearing a shirt and shorts. The girls will in many cases be wearing a dress, or they'll be wearing a skirt, or they'll be wearing some item of clothing that makes movement a little bit more restrictive if they want to be I feel uncomfortable even saying the word now that we're having this conversation, I was going to say, if they want to be more boisterous, but let's change that too. If they want to be more active, it's very, very challenging for them to do that in a way that would conserve a sense of modesty, because they're wearing dresses and they don't want to be flashing their undies all the backside to everybody. And so we've had this conversation building in Australia over the last year two, maybe even three years, where schools are now starting to recognize that perhaps it's okay for girls to wear whatever they want, including comfortable shorts, so long as it's within the school uniform set up like this.

And why wouldn't it be okay the fact that we have to have that.

And why wouldn't it be okay the fact that we have to have that.

Conversation, But so many are still saying, though, it's not okay. This is our uniform and this is how we want our girls to be. We want them to be demure and lady like. Can you be lady like and wear shorts? That's my question. I mean, I think you can.

Conversation, But so many are still saying, though, it's not okay. This is our uniform and this is how we want our girls to be. We want them to be demure and lady like. Can you be lady like and wear shorts? That's my question. I mean, I think you can.

What does lady like me?

What does lady like me?

And I mean ladylike means like a lady, And there are all kinds of ladies out there, So I find I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right, don't take up space, don't move, don't don't learn to use your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead, from the beginning, think of your body in terms of how it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate, does it look modest? If you want them to look modest, then put them in shorts so they can move however they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I guess when they're a little older they start to crawl. It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to crawl in skirts and dresses. Right, And even that is something we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it. Imagine now trying to crawl in a dress versus pair pants or pair of shorts.

And I mean ladylike means like a lady, And there are all kinds of ladies out there, So I find I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right, don't take up space, don't move, don't don't learn to use your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead, from the beginning, think of your body in terms of how it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate, does it look modest? If you want them to look modest, then put them in shorts so they can move however they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I guess when they're a little older they start to crawl. It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to crawl in skirts and dresses. Right, And even that is something we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it. Imagine now trying to crawl in a dress versus pair pants or pair of shorts.

Right.

Right.

So are how we dress girls in such a way that requires constant and monitoring. It has a real impact on how they grow up to feel about their bodies.

So are how we dress girls in such a way that requires constant and monitoring. It has a real impact on how they grow up to feel about their bodies.

I want to come back to you your bodies for other people.

I want to come back to you your bodies for other people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go back to the conversation about children. Okay, So we started with five year olds and how a third of them or just over a third of them females. I'm guessing it wasn't the males that wanted to change their bodies, by the way, it was just the females that we're talking about the diet. What happens as they get older? Can you talk me through the next sort of ten to twelve years from age five through to age seventeen eighteen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go back to the conversation about children. Okay, So we started with five year olds and how a third of them or just over a third of them females. I'm guessing it wasn't the males that wanted to change their bodies, by the way, it was just the females that we're talking about the diet. What happens as they get older? Can you talk me through the next sort of ten to twelve years from age five through to age seventeen eighteen.

So I'd say there's two big changes, right that happen. One is the introduction to social media. Now, when that happens depends on the kind of choices parents make and what's going on with peers and things like that. But it's often tweens we're looking at who are starting to get into social media.

So I'd say there's two big changes, right that happen. One is the introduction to social media. Now, when that happens depends on the kind of choices parents make and what's going on with peers and things like that. But it's often tweens we're looking at who are starting to get into social media.

Which adds this additional mirror.

Which adds this additional mirror.

Right, you had the mirror in your head, and now you have the mirror on your phone where you're taking selfies and you're looking at yourself constantly, and you're editing them, and you're scrolling through hundreds thousands of images a day of other people, right, So that's just really turning up the focus on appearance. So that's the first sort of challenge that girls are running into at this age. And then puberty hits, right, and the research around puberty is so clear that it tends to make boys like their bodies more right, It brings boys bodies more in line with the ideal, tends to make them more muscular, broad on their shoulders, get taller, things like that. But with girls, because puberty tends to increase the amount of body fat you have. Despite the fact that puberty is a sign of them physically becoming adult women, it actually is moving them farther from the body ideal for women. And there's something really twisted and wrong about that. But this is the time that we see a lot of girls start to have very very significant struggles with body image, some of which can turn.

Right, you had the mirror in your head, and now you have the mirror on your phone where you're taking selfies and you're looking at yourself constantly, and you're editing them, and you're scrolling through hundreds thousands of images a day of other people, right, So that's just really turning up the focus on appearance. So that's the first sort of challenge that girls are running into at this age. And then puberty hits, right, and the research around puberty is so clear that it tends to make boys like their bodies more right, It brings boys bodies more in line with the ideal, tends to make them more muscular, broad on their shoulders, get taller, things like that. But with girls, because puberty tends to increase the amount of body fat you have. Despite the fact that puberty is a sign of them physically becoming adult women, it actually is moving them farther from the body ideal for women. And there's something really twisted and wrong about that. But this is the time that we see a lot of girls start to have very very significant struggles with body image, some of which can turn.

Into eating disorders at this age.

Into eating disorders at this age.

And I think one of the most important findings for me that's come out of the clinical psychology literature is it's a study that was trying to understand why it is that we see the gender gap and depression show up in this sort of early adolescent place. You know, until that point, both girls and boys get depressed about the same rates, but once the girls get a little older, it just starts to go up and up. Right, we see this big gap, and there's pretty good evidence now that part of where that gap comes from is girls worried. Girls worries about their bodies, right, how their bodies look to other people, how their faces look to other people.

And I think one of the most important findings for me that's come out of the clinical psychology literature is it's a study that was trying to understand why it is that we see the gender gap and depression show up in this sort of early adolescent place. You know, until that point, both girls and boys get depressed about the same rates, but once the girls get a little older, it just starts to go up and up. Right, we see this big gap, and there's pretty good evidence now that part of where that gap comes from is girls worried. Girls worries about their bodies, right, how their bodies look to other people, how their faces look to other people.

Their appearance.

Their appearance.

So it's really this time when body image concerns that could have been a distraction can turn into something much bigger, and I think it's something to really be on the lookout for as parents.

So it's really this time when body image concerns that could have been a distraction can turn into something much bigger, and I think it's something to really be on the lookout for as parents.

The second most worried about issue in my study of girls, and now this was not a university study. It was a survey with a handful of interviews and some focus groups with girls from my book Misconnection. Number one was I wonder if you can guess what do you think teenage girls? Number one issue was.

The second most worried about issue in my study of girls, and now this was not a university study. It was a survey with a handful of interviews and some focus groups with girls from my book Misconnection. Number one was I wonder if you can guess what do you think teenage girls? Number one issue was.

I'm a little biased, but right, my sense is that one of the biggest issues is.

I'm a little biased, but right, my sense is that one of the biggest issues is.

Body and so body image was number two.

Body and so body image was number two.

So besides that, I would say relationships and.

So besides that, I would say relationships and.

Parenting, relationships with friends It was yeah, yeah, I'm worried about my friends and how they see me in whether I've got any. And what was fascinating about that was so many of them linked their relationships with friends to issues with appearance or you know, they wanted to be popular, but to be popular, they had to be hot. You're like, there's this explicit, unmissible link when you look at the when you look at the comments from girls, it's it's an undeniable link for so many of them that they literally tie their value as a human being to their physical appearance. And if I look good, then I'm a valuable person. But if I don't look good, I'm worthless, I'm nothing, and nobody will like me.

Parenting, relationships with friends It was yeah, yeah, I'm worried about my friends and how they see me in whether I've got any. And what was fascinating about that was so many of them linked their relationships with friends to issues with appearance or you know, they wanted to be popular, but to be popular, they had to be hot. You're like, there's this explicit, unmissible link when you look at the when you look at the comments from girls, it's it's an undeniable link for so many of them that they literally tie their value as a human being to their physical appearance. And if I look good, then I'm a valuable person. But if I don't look good, I'm worthless, I'm nothing, and nobody will like me.

It would be incredibly hard for them to tie their value to their appearance because that's what every cultural message they get tells them to do. Right, that's what they've been sold since they were young. Right, that their prettiness and then as they get older, their sex appeal. Right, that that is their source of worth. That that will be the ticket to success in life. It will be the ticket to a happy relationship, to good peer experiences. Right, this is a lesson that we learn over and over again. It's really hard not to internalize that.

It would be incredibly hard for them to tie their value to their appearance because that's what every cultural message they get tells them to do. Right, that's what they've been sold since they were young. Right, that their prettiness and then as they get older, their sex appeal. Right, that that is their source of worth. That that will be the ticket to success in life. It will be the ticket to a happy relationship, to good peer experiences. Right, this is a lesson that we learn over and over again. It's really hard not to internalize that.

And there's there's that halo effect where I mean there's so much research on this. People who are attractive get a on average, an easier ride in life. They're more likely to escape speeding tickets when they get pulled over by the police, They're more likely to be marked better in an exam, they get a better ride. There's so many studies in so many different contexts now that highlight that physical appearance actually makes life easier.

And there's there's that halo effect where I mean there's so much research on this. People who are attractive get a on average, an easier ride in life. They're more likely to escape speeding tickets when they get pulled over by the police, They're more likely to be marked better in an exam, they get a better ride. There's so many studies in so many different contexts now that highlight that physical appearance actually makes life easier.

I would never underestimate the sort of the goods you get in exchange for being sort of consistent with our culture's beauty ideals.

I would never underestimate the sort of the goods you get in exchange for being sort of consistent with our culture's beauty ideals.

Right, you get a lot from that.

Right, you get a lot from that.

It's not all good, though, right You also get assumptions that you're arrogant or that you're dumb sometimes right, that you can't be smart and pretty.

It's not all good, though, right You also get assumptions that you're arrogant or that you're dumb sometimes right, that you can't be smart and pretty.

And I've also talked to a lot of.

And I've also talked to a lot of.

Young women who felt like, yeah, it was great to be identified as pretty or beautiful, but over time you start to wonder if that's not all you are. And then I talk to women who are heading into their thirties and forties who are terrified because they are well aware of the power they got from being beautiful, and they're also aware that it has an expiration date on it, and they head into middle age thinking what's left? Right, once this goes, what's left?

Young women who felt like, yeah, it was great to be identified as pretty or beautiful, but over time you start to wonder if that's not all you are. And then I talk to women who are heading into their thirties and forties who are terrified because they are well aware of the power they got from being beautiful, and they're also aware that it has an expiration date on it, and they head into middle age thinking what's left? Right, once this goes, what's left?

You should have quote from your grandpa.

You should have quote from your grandpa.

Oh yes, I always worry about this because I don't know if he made this up or if he got it somewhere.

Oh yes, I always worry about this because I don't know if he made this up or if he got it somewhere.

I couldn't find it online. But he always used to tell me. He called me Nane, and he would say, Nana, never be too proud of your youth or your beauty. You did nothing to earn them, and you can do nothing to keep them.

I couldn't find it online. But he always used to tell me. He called me Nane, and he would say, Nana, never be too proud of your youth or your beauty. You did nothing to earn them, and you can do nothing to keep them.

And I know it sounds sort of brutal, but I never experienced it that way, right, what I as a child growing up like that was his way of telling us that, hey, this this this game was rigged. Right. You might have gotten some privileges. You might have them now, you're not going to have them forever, and you didn't deserve them, you didn't earn them. Right, Be proud of the things that you work for and build foundations for your life that you can keep.

And I know it sounds sort of brutal, but I never experienced it that way, right, what I as a child growing up like that was his way of telling us that, hey, this this this game was rigged. Right. You might have gotten some privileges. You might have them now, you're not going to have them forever, and you didn't deserve them, you didn't earn them. Right, Be proud of the things that you work for and build foundations for your life that you can keep.

Right. That's I think the most important lesson there.

Right. That's I think the most important lesson there.

It's a little bit of tough love advance. But it's good. I mean, it's really good. What's driving this though? So can we point the finger any one main culprit?

It's a little bit of tough love advance. But it's good. I mean, it's really good. What's driving this though? So can we point the finger any one main culprit?

So I don't think so you know, I'm not I'm not interested in sort of bashing any one target.

So I don't think so you know, I'm not I'm not interested in sort of bashing any one target.

Here.

Here.

What I see is this collection of forces.

What I see is this collection of forces.

You know, it's create this toxic stew that girls and women are swimming around in.

You know, it's create this toxic stew that girls and women are swimming around in.

And part of those forces we help a lot.

And part of those forces we help a lot.

Right when we buy into the diet industry and the beauty industry, Right when we follow people on Instagram who do nothing but show us.

Right when we buy into the diet industry and the beauty industry, Right when we follow people on Instagram who do nothing but show us.

How beautiful they are. Right, would we encourage this kind of thing? Sometimes?

How beautiful they are. Right, would we encourage this kind of thing? Sometimes?

Oh, you know what you've just reminded me. I saw a picture of a dinner plate set for sale in a store. I saw it was I couldn't believe what I was reading on the plate. There are three circles. Okay, so there's like an inner circle drawn on the plate. Then there's a circle halfway along the plate, and then there's a circle towards the outer rim of the plate. And there was a name for each circle. The inner circle which was you know, it was representative of the smallest portion size you might put on that plate. The inner circle said skinny jeans, the middle one said favorite jeans. And then the largest circle, which you know, was out near the rim taking up the whole plate, said mum jeans.

Oh, you know what you've just reminded me. I saw a picture of a dinner plate set for sale in a store. I saw it was I couldn't believe what I was reading on the plate. There are three circles. Okay, so there's like an inner circle drawn on the plate. Then there's a circle halfway along the plate, and then there's a circle towards the outer rim of the plate. And there was a name for each circle. The inner circle which was you know, it was representative of the smallest portion size you might put on that plate. The inner circle said skinny jeans, the middle one said favorite jeans. And then the largest circle, which you know, was out near the rim taking up the whole plate, said mum jeans.

Oh, oh, what would way we treat mothers the way we treat mothers?

Oh, oh, what would way we treat mothers the way we treat mothers?

Right?

Right?

I watched you know, since we've been sort of in lockdown here, I've been watching maybe a little more Netflix than I should.

I watched you know, since we've been sort of in lockdown here, I've been watching maybe a little more Netflix than I should.

And I stumbled across this show that i've It's called The Baker and the Beauty.

And I stumbled across this show that i've It's called The Baker and the Beauty.

It was just this little like families sitcom, and there's a young woman in it who has this line because she's pressuring her boyfriend to get married, and she said, I'm a woman.

It was just this little like families sitcom, and there's a young woman in it who has this line because she's pressuring her boyfriend to get married, and she said, I'm a woman.

This is what we do.

This is what we do.

We diet, we get married, we have children, and then we diet again. And I was just oh, So there was just a silly little show, right, But there was something about that line. It's like, Yeah, for a lot of women, that's their life, right. You become a mom and then you diet because you're allowed to be a mom, but you're not.

We diet, we get married, we have children, and then we diet again. And I was just oh, So there was just a silly little show, right, But there was something about that line. It's like, Yeah, for a lot of women, that's their life, right. You become a mom and then you diet because you're allowed to be a mom, but you're not.

Allowed to look like a mom.

Allowed to look like a mom.

Right.

Right.

This this pressure to have the body of a twenty year old for the rest of your.

This this pressure to have the body of a twenty year old for the rest of your.

Life, It's it's insane, right, It's it's a pressure that has gotten absolutely worse over the years. There's not great data on it, but I've talked to a lot of practitioners who treat women with eating disorders, and they said they're seeing something kind of unusual, which is like the onset of anorexia is showing up in the thirties and forties, just not something you typically see. Anorexia can last a very long time, but it tends to start much earlier than that.

Life, It's it's insane, right, It's it's a pressure that has gotten absolutely worse over the years. There's not great data on it, but I've talked to a lot of practitioners who treat women with eating disorders, and they said they're seeing something kind of unusual, which is like the onset of anorexia is showing up in the thirties and forties, just not something you typically see. Anorexia can last a very long time, but it tends to start much earlier than that.

And some of that is tied to.

And some of that is tied to.

The sense that that women are feeling this pressure to do everything they can, right to not look like someone who would wear mom jeans, right to have the skinny jeans forever, to get botox, to get fillers, to color your hair, to go to ten workout classes a week, to constantly watch what you eat.

The sense that that women are feeling this pressure to do everything they can, right to not look like someone who would wear mom jeans, right to have the skinny jeans forever, to get botox, to get fillers, to color your hair, to go to ten workout classes a week, to constantly watch what you eat.

It's brutal. It's brutal.

It's brutal. It's brutal.

There's got to be more to life than diet. Do some things and then diet again. Right, They're just has to be.

There's got to be more to life than diet. Do some things and then diet again. Right, They're just has to be.

Yeah, I'm so curious. I know that I kind of interrupted you when I asked that initial question of what's creating it? What is the culprit? And now you say, there's no one thing. There's this toxic stew. But I wonder if we could actually name them. So we've got we've got dinner plates, the rainforce, this and We've always think of the media and the social media, and but but are they more insidious things as well? Are there things that we don't even know.

Yeah, I'm so curious. I know that I kind of interrupted you when I asked that initial question of what's creating it? What is the culprit? And now you say, there's no one thing. There's this toxic stew. But I wonder if we could actually name them. So we've got we've got dinner plates, the rainforce, this and We've always think of the media and the social media, and but but are they more insidious things as well? Are there things that we don't even know.

That it Well, there's the beauty industry and the diet industry, which are billions of dollars a year. They're incredibly powerful, and they only make money if you feel unattractive, right there. These are products like that you'll only keep buying if they.

That it Well, there's the beauty industry and the diet industry, which are billions of dollars a year. They're incredibly powerful, and they only make money if you feel unattractive, right there. These are products like that you'll only keep buying if they.

Don't work, right. The power of.

Don't work, right. The power of.

These industries to capitalize on women's vulnerability is really breathtaking. I can't tell you how many smart, educated with it women will still say things like I swear for just a moment, I thought that mascara was going to change my life, right, Like, you just really get sold this bill of goods, that this next thing is going to make it all okay, right, and that the only way you're ever going to feel like enough is if you can look like a fitness model or look like that influencer on Instagram.

These industries to capitalize on women's vulnerability is really breathtaking. I can't tell you how many smart, educated with it women will still say things like I swear for just a moment, I thought that mascara was going to change my life, right, Like, you just really get sold this bill of goods, that this next thing is going to make it all okay, right, and that the only way you're ever going to feel like enough is if you can look like a fitness model or look like that influencer on Instagram.

It's it's it's hard to see several.

It's it's it's hard to see several.

Generations of women now never feeling like they're going to be enough.

Generations of women now never feeling like they're going to be enough.

Right.

Right.

That's a really hard thing for me to look at, and it's really hard for me when I find out that even some grown women who are my heroes still feel that way. Right, that's a really hard thing to hear. I have people ask all the time, like, where did you find all these women with body image issues to talk to you for your book? And I was like, I don't understand the question, right, I just found women.

That's a really hard thing for me to look at, and it's really hard for me when I find out that even some grown women who are my heroes still feel that way. Right, that's a really hard thing to hear. I have people ask all the time, like, where did you find all these women with body image issues to talk to you for your book? And I was like, I don't understand the question, right, I just found women.

I didn't look for women with body issues. Just found women, and I talked to them about their bodies. It's all you need to do.

I didn't look for women with body issues. Just found women, and I talked to them about their bodies. It's all you need to do.

So young girls, tween girls, teen girls, young women, moms, adult women, retirees. I'm guessing that this is just a pervisive thing. And again, just to emphasize, it's not a man thing. In fact, let me read something. I wish I could read your entire book to you so that I could take now tell me about this now, but let me just read this. This was in a chapter that you titled just Like a Woman, and I've underlined Neliber whole chapter. But I just want to read this bit to you. You said, think about it in this way. If I told you that someone in the United States was about to go under the knife in the hopes of reshaping their appearance, you could bet it was a woman and be correct. Around ninety percent of the time. Internationally, eighty five to ninety percent of surgical and non surgical cosmetic procedures are performed on women. If you heard that a young person was suffering from anorexia or bolimia, I guess it was a young woman. You'd be right nine times out of ten. Eating disorders and plastic surgery of both complex issues. But we can't ignore gender gaps like these. They forced us to acknowledge that men's and women's experience in this culture are vastly different in important ways. Men and women are living systematically different lives when it comes to beauty sickness. Read a couple more lines from this particular area. I know it's probably boring to you because you wrote it, but it just it's so compelling. Women talk about how they look more than men do. They think about how they look more than men do, and they're more likely than men to engage in behaviors to alter or improve their appearance. There's a reason no one in this culture would be surprised to overhear a woman saying I feel so fat and ugly. Today, we accept this type of unhappiness as part of being a woman. Over thirty years ago, researchers coined the phrase normative discontent to describe the phenomenon. The term suggests that we've gotten to a place where it's considered normal for girls or women to be deeply disappointed when they look in the mirror. It's the girl version of boys will be boys.

So young girls, tween girls, teen girls, young women, moms, adult women, retirees. I'm guessing that this is just a pervisive thing. And again, just to emphasize, it's not a man thing. In fact, let me read something. I wish I could read your entire book to you so that I could take now tell me about this now, but let me just read this. This was in a chapter that you titled just Like a Woman, and I've underlined Neliber whole chapter. But I just want to read this bit to you. You said, think about it in this way. If I told you that someone in the United States was about to go under the knife in the hopes of reshaping their appearance, you could bet it was a woman and be correct. Around ninety percent of the time. Internationally, eighty five to ninety percent of surgical and non surgical cosmetic procedures are performed on women. If you heard that a young person was suffering from anorexia or bolimia, I guess it was a young woman. You'd be right nine times out of ten. Eating disorders and plastic surgery of both complex issues. But we can't ignore gender gaps like these. They forced us to acknowledge that men's and women's experience in this culture are vastly different in important ways. Men and women are living systematically different lives when it comes to beauty sickness. Read a couple more lines from this particular area. I know it's probably boring to you because you wrote it, but it just it's so compelling. Women talk about how they look more than men do. They think about how they look more than men do, and they're more likely than men to engage in behaviors to alter or improve their appearance. There's a reason no one in this culture would be surprised to overhear a woman saying I feel so fat and ugly. Today, we accept this type of unhappiness as part of being a woman. Over thirty years ago, researchers coined the phrase normative discontent to describe the phenomenon. The term suggests that we've gotten to a place where it's considered normal for girls or women to be deeply disappointed when they look in the mirror. It's the girl version of boys will be boys.

Hey, this is the first question I always get. Right, if I go speak.

Hey, this is the first question I always get. Right, if I go speak.

To any kind of group about this topic, Almost always the first question I get is what about men?

To any kind of group about this topic, Almost always the first question I get is what about men?

What about boys? And So I always want to be clear that boys and men.

What about boys? And So I always want to be clear that boys and men.

Can absolutely have these struggles too, Right, they can happen to any gender, But that doesn't mean that boys and girls and men and women are living in the same world when it comes.

Can absolutely have these struggles too, Right, they can happen to any gender, But that doesn't mean that boys and girls and men and women are living in the same world when it comes.

To these issues.

To these issues.

So it's different for me.

So it's different for me.

Yes, yes, it can happen.

Yes, yes, it can happen.

And I also I'm not arguing that it's easy to be a man either, Right. I think there are pressures that hit men differentially. So, for example, the pressure to make a lot of money, to be powerful, to have high status. Right, that is a pressure, a burden that men bear much more than women do.

And I also I'm not arguing that it's easy to be a man either, Right. I think there are pressures that hit men differentially. So, for example, the pressure to make a lot of money, to be powerful, to have high status. Right, that is a pressure, a burden that men bear much more than women do.

Right.

Right.

I think in some ways women are given more freedom in those respects. But I don't think we can argue that that men and women are facing the same reality when it comes to a parent's focus and so. But part of the issue is I study women and girls. That's what I do, right, so that that is my focus. There are people who focus on body image and men and boys who are doing excellent work. So I don't mean to imply that that's not important and not out there. But what fascinates me is as a culture, this set of rules that women are just by and large expected to follow without question, that we would never ask men to follow. Can you imagine if we ask men to wear high heels or something equally uncomfortable and you know, inefficient when it came to walking.

I think in some ways women are given more freedom in those respects. But I don't think we can argue that that men and women are facing the same reality when it comes to a parent's focus and so. But part of the issue is I study women and girls. That's what I do, right, so that that is my focus. There are people who focus on body image and men and boys who are doing excellent work. So I don't mean to imply that that's not important and not out there. But what fascinates me is as a culture, this set of rules that women are just by and large expected to follow without question, that we would never ask men to follow. Can you imagine if we ask men to wear high heels or something equally uncomfortable and you know, inefficient when it came to walking.

Or even to remove the hair from their bodies.

Or even to remove the hair from their bodies.

Yeah, And people say, well some men wax, and I say absolutely right. But if you look at waxing salons, they'll say here's our waxing menu, and then there'll be a little part that says men's services, right, So they're even telling you there there's a differentiation there. It's not the norm for men the way it is for women, at least not for straight guys, right. I do think that sexual minority men face a greater degree of pressure on this front. But it's everywhere built into our culture, right.

Yeah, And people say, well some men wax, and I say absolutely right. But if you look at waxing salons, they'll say here's our waxing menu, and then there'll be a little part that says men's services, right, So they're even telling you there there's a differentiation there. It's not the norm for men the way it is for women, at least not for straight guys, right. I do think that sexual minority men face a greater degree of pressure on this front. But it's everywhere built into our culture, right.

You hear it from the minute we start talking about infants, when we say such a pretty girl, such a pretty girl. Oh look at the strong boy.

You hear it from the minute we start talking about infants, when we say such a pretty girl, such a pretty girl. Oh look at the strong boy.

Right. It starts very young that we think about women's bodies, about their physicality as existing to be looked at, right, instead of as existing to do things.

Right. It starts very young that we think about women's bodies, about their physicality as existing to be looked at, right, instead of as existing to do things.

You know, I just remembered the story one of the guys that is a TV host for one of our major breakfast programs nationwide around Australia. His name is Karl Stefanovic, and a few years ago there was a big media storm when he stepped forward and said, guess what, I haven't changed my suit for a year. I've worn the same suit and tie every single day on the television for an entire year, and nobody's noticed. I've not received one single email. I've not received one single comment on social media. Nobody's said a word about the fact that I've been wearing exactly the same suit and tie and the white shirt for a year. But he stepped out and said it that day, because that's same day his co host, who at the time was a lady, called Lisa Wilkinson. That day, she had been absolutely slammed with hundreds of comments because people didn't like the clothing that she wore on the television that day. And this was a this was a regular occurrence. This happens all the time. Because I'm on the TV. I'm following a bunch of Instagram accounts for the TV hosts that I'm interviewed by or that I work with from time to time, and whenever they post any pictures of them, the threads are full of comment after comment after comment of how beautiful they are. Now, they're not posting anything about their looks, they're not trying to look snazzy. They're simply saying I'm here doing this gig, or I'm at home with the kids, or here's what I cooked for dinner. And nevertheless, all the comments are about their physical appearance. It's almost like people feel compelled to say something they don't know what to say, and so they comment on their looks. But I can tell you I've never posted a picture, ever posted a picture on my Instagram or on my Facebook where people have chosen to make the majority of the commentary about my physical appearance. Never happened. I mean, I know that I'm not the most attractive guy in the world. It's never ever happened. And I don't care that I'm not the most attractive going in the world. I don't have to be brad Pit. People don't value me for my appearents. They value me for the work that I do.

You know, I just remembered the story one of the guys that is a TV host for one of our major breakfast programs nationwide around Australia. His name is Karl Stefanovic, and a few years ago there was a big media storm when he stepped forward and said, guess what, I haven't changed my suit for a year. I've worn the same suit and tie every single day on the television for an entire year, and nobody's noticed. I've not received one single email. I've not received one single comment on social media. Nobody's said a word about the fact that I've been wearing exactly the same suit and tie and the white shirt for a year. But he stepped out and said it that day, because that's same day his co host, who at the time was a lady, called Lisa Wilkinson. That day, she had been absolutely slammed with hundreds of comments because people didn't like the clothing that she wore on the television that day. And this was a this was a regular occurrence. This happens all the time. Because I'm on the TV. I'm following a bunch of Instagram accounts for the TV hosts that I'm interviewed by or that I work with from time to time, and whenever they post any pictures of them, the threads are full of comment after comment after comment of how beautiful they are. Now, they're not posting anything about their looks, they're not trying to look snazzy. They're simply saying I'm here doing this gig, or I'm at home with the kids, or here's what I cooked for dinner. And nevertheless, all the comments are about their physical appearance. It's almost like people feel compelled to say something they don't know what to say, and so they comment on their looks. But I can tell you I've never posted a picture, ever posted a picture on my Instagram or on my Facebook where people have chosen to make the majority of the commentary about my physical appearance. Never happened. I mean, I know that I'm not the most attractive guy in the world. It's never ever happened. And I don't care that I'm not the most attractive going in the world. I don't have to be brad Pit. People don't value me for my appearents. They value me for the work that I do.

It's a super awkward place to be.

It's a super awkward place to be.

I have to tell you I can, I can go somewhere to do a TV segment or give a talk on this topic, and often the first thing people will say to me is something about how I look, even in that moment.

I have to tell you I can, I can go somewhere to do a TV segment or give a talk on this topic, and often the first thing people will say to me is something about how I look, even in that moment.

Right, it still happens.

Right, it still happens.

I have an author Instagram account, which I'm not particularly good at. I don't know how to do stories, et cetera, et cetera. But I almost never post a picture of myself. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in people's commentary. I'm not interested in those moments where I have to worry about how I look as I'm taking that picture, and what's my hair doing and should I filter it or should I not filter it.

I have an author Instagram account, which I'm not particularly good at. I don't know how to do stories, et cetera, et cetera. But I almost never post a picture of myself. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in people's commentary. I'm not interested in those moments where I have to worry about how I look as I'm taking that picture, and what's my hair doing and should I filter it or should I not filter it.

I just don't do it right. But that's a power I have to be able to opt out.

I just don't do it right. But that's a power I have to be able to opt out.

There are many people in jobs that can't opt out right, like a woman working in news. It's an image focused profession. There are there's a journalist I wrote about her a little bit in Beauty Sick, Heidi Stevens the Chicago Tribune locally, who's got very curly hair, like, that's it, it's just curly hair. And she could write a column every year with a collection of little hate mail she gets about her hair, right, like, how can you leave your hair like that?

There are many people in jobs that can't opt out right, like a woman working in news. It's an image focused profession. There are there's a journalist I wrote about her a little bit in Beauty Sick, Heidi Stevens the Chicago Tribune locally, who's got very curly hair, like, that's it, it's just curly hair. And she could write a column every year with a collection of little hate mail she gets about her hair, right, like, how can you leave your hair like that?

Your hair is a rat nest? How could you do that? That's so unprofessional? And she's not even on TV.

Your hair is a rat nest? How could you do that? That's so unprofessional? And she's not even on TV.

This is all just based on that little thumbnail picture that you see next to a columnist. Wow, So just imagine how that get gets turned up, right, And when you're a woman in the public eye, and I have to wonder all the time how many women would seek out jobs, careers, volunteer opportunities in the public eye but choose not to because they don't want that kind of scrutiny about their parents. I think that's happening more than we talk about.