This is the Happy Families Podcast. Thanks so much for being a part of these in depth podcast discussions. My name is doctor Justin Colson. I'm a dad to six kids and the author of six books about raising happy families. And on this episode we're having a conversation with Lenor Scanes. She's the president of Let Grow, a not for profit organization that promotes childhood independence and resilience, and also the founder of the Free Range Kids movement. Leno was also branded, quite famously the World's worst mum. Let's start at the peak Lenor Scanazi moment where you've got a nine year old son. It's probably what was it about ten or twelve years ago? Now, oh wow, okay, so yep, So you've got a nine year old son and you say, mate, why don't you catch the subway home?

This is the Happy Families Podcast. Thanks so much for being a part of these in depth podcast discussions. My name is doctor Justin Colson. I'm a dad to six kids and the author of six books about raising happy families. And on this episode we're having a conversation with Lenor Scanes. She's the president of Let Grow, a not for profit organization that promotes childhood independence and resilience, and also the founder of the Free Range Kids movement. Leno was also branded, quite famously the World's worst mum. Let's start at the peak Lenor Scanazi moment where you've got a nine year old son. It's probably what was it about ten or twelve years ago? Now, oh wow, okay, so yep, So you've got a nine year old son and you say, mate, why don't you catch the subway home?

Yeah, that's not what I say. First of all, we don't see meat. But more importantly, our son was asking us if we would take him someplace he'd never been before and let him find his own way home on the subway, which is how we get around in New York City all the time. And this was not something that our older son had asked us when he was nine so it was something that we really had to think about, my husband and I before we said yes. But then finally we did say, okay, we'll do this. We'll let you take the subway by yourself.

Yeah, that's not what I say. First of all, we don't see meat. But more importantly, our son was asking us if we would take him someplace he'd never been before and let him find his own way home on the subway, which is how we get around in New York City all the time. And this was not something that our older son had asked us when he was nine so it was something that we really had to think about, my husband and I before we said yes. But then finally we did say, okay, we'll do this. We'll let you take the subway by yourself.

It's kind of independent, really, isn't it. A nine year old aunt usually saying give me a challenge. Let's just let's just drop me somewhere in the city and let me try to get home. So has he always been an independent minded kind of kid.

It's kind of independent, really, isn't it. A nine year old aunt usually saying give me a challenge. Let's just let's just drop me somewhere in the city and let me try to get home. So has he always been an independent minded kind of kid.

I would say he is. But I think that we're sort of right and wrong on whether kids have always or don't ask this kind of thing. I think that a generation or two before this, it wouldn't have been a conversation because it would have happened naturally. You know, kids would have been either getting on their bikes if they were in the suburbs, or riding the bus or subway if they were in the city, you know, to get to a music lesson, to get to school, to get to grandma's house, to get to a know, an empty lot and start a baseball game and hang out there all day. And so even the fact that he had to ask, as opposed to this just being a normal thing that kids just do on their own is indicative of it being, you know, a more sort of mother may I kind of era than it was before. So, yeah, he was asking him that was unusual, but I don't think his independence would have been unusual in any other generation.

I would say he is. But I think that we're sort of right and wrong on whether kids have always or don't ask this kind of thing. I think that a generation or two before this, it wouldn't have been a conversation because it would have happened naturally. You know, kids would have been either getting on their bikes if they were in the suburbs, or riding the bus or subway if they were in the city, you know, to get to a music lesson, to get to school, to get to grandma's house, to get to a know, an empty lot and start a baseball game and hang out there all day. And so even the fact that he had to ask, as opposed to this just being a normal thing that kids just do on their own is indicative of it being, you know, a more sort of mother may I kind of era than it was before. So, yeah, he was asking him that was unusual, but I don't think his independence would have been unusual in any other generation.

When you had the conversation with your husband and then decided that we're comfortable with this, we'll give it a go. We'll take you into the city and we'll go home, and then we'll see you at home in a couple of hours. Hopefully.

When you had the conversation with your husband and then decided that we're comfortable with this, we'll give it a go. We'll take you into the city and we'll go home, and then we'll see you at home in a couple of hours. Hopefully.

What we said that's a bigger you're making it into a bigger deal because we were in the city, right We lived in Manhattan at the time, and we were sending him. You know, we just took the subway up to this beautiful, fancy department store, which is why it was someplace he had never been before because we don't usually shot there. And then all he had to do was come back down on the subway about four or five stops, and then we don't live right near there, so he had to take another little bus across town. All together, it might have taken an hour if that.

What we said that's a bigger you're making it into a bigger deal because we were in the city, right We lived in Manhattan at the time, and we were sending him. You know, we just took the subway up to this beautiful, fancy department store, which is why it was someplace he had never been before because we don't usually shot there. And then all he had to do was come back down on the subway about four or five stops, and then we don't live right near there, so he had to take another little bus across town. All together, it might have taken an hour if that.

When you went through this conversation and actually got to the point where you're like, okay, let's do this. What reservations did you have? At what point were you thinking? Are we crazy? Is this normal? A generation to go it would have been fine, but it's a different world. Now, what are we thinking? What sort of concerns did you have beforehand?

When you went through this conversation and actually got to the point where you're like, okay, let's do this. What reservations did you have? At what point were you thinking? Are we crazy? Is this normal? A generation to go it would have been fine, but it's a different world. Now, what are we thinking? What sort of concerns did you have beforehand?

We had the concern that we wanted to make sure that he knew what he was doing. And so even though we are on the subways all the time, and now, some kids love certain things, like there are kids who love cars or dolls or whatever, he loved the subway, loves you know, we'd love public transportation, but we wanted to make sure he understood that. You know that you're reading the map and the green line, which is the line that he was going to have to take. That's the four, five, and six train. For anybody who's been to New York City, that that was the train you would have to take, and you know this is the stock you get off on. And then of course we're always on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that he would have to wait for the bus at the bus stop. I don't recall telling him this that time, but I've always told my kids that you can talk to strain, you can't go off with strangers. So if you need help from somebody, certainly you can ask a question of somebody, but you can't get into somebody's car. You can't go off with somebody. And other than that, we prepared him with a couple of things. We gave him a subway map twenty dollars, just in case you needed something went really terribly wrong and he needed to take a cab or something quarters because even twelve years ago there were still some payphones in the subway, and and a metro card, which is the card that you slide through the entryway to get into the trains to pay your fare. And so I'd say that we didn't think we were crazy because we were preparing him, and because it wasn't something that he was saying, no, Mom, I don't want to do this. This was his idea and something that we had all discussed and decided he was ready for. You know, I'm a reporter by trade. I spent years and years at the New York Daily News, which is if you've seen the Superman movies, it's actually they call it the Daily Planet, but they shoot the movies the Daily News, which is where I worked, And so as a tabloid reporter. I was steeped in the city. You know, I went everywhere on stories hither and Yon, and I had a very i'd say realistic view of the city based on being very much part of it. And that's very different from I think the way the story obviously resonated around the world because if you watch you know, TV shows, especially Law and Order Geez set in New York City, you think there's a murder every second, and there are always children, and they're always raped beforehand, and they're always cut into pieces. And in fact, the crime rate, the crime rate right now is crazy because of COVID, but for since the nineties, the crime rate has been going down, down, down, down, down. So given all that, I didn't think we were crazy, And in fact, there are a lot of things that I wouldn't let my nine year old do, and that I'm sorry that my twenty two year old does. I absolutely I am terrified of cars, but I guess he has to drive. But taking the subway did not strike me as crazy.

We had the concern that we wanted to make sure that he knew what he was doing. And so even though we are on the subways all the time, and now, some kids love certain things, like there are kids who love cars or dolls or whatever, he loved the subway, loves you know, we'd love public transportation, but we wanted to make sure he understood that. You know that you're reading the map and the green line, which is the line that he was going to have to take. That's the four, five, and six train. For anybody who's been to New York City, that that was the train you would have to take, and you know this is the stock you get off on. And then of course we're always on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that he would have to wait for the bus at the bus stop. I don't recall telling him this that time, but I've always told my kids that you can talk to strain, you can't go off with strangers. So if you need help from somebody, certainly you can ask a question of somebody, but you can't get into somebody's car. You can't go off with somebody. And other than that, we prepared him with a couple of things. We gave him a subway map twenty dollars, just in case you needed something went really terribly wrong and he needed to take a cab or something quarters because even twelve years ago there were still some payphones in the subway, and and a metro card, which is the card that you slide through the entryway to get into the trains to pay your fare. And so I'd say that we didn't think we were crazy because we were preparing him, and because it wasn't something that he was saying, no, Mom, I don't want to do this. This was his idea and something that we had all discussed and decided he was ready for. You know, I'm a reporter by trade. I spent years and years at the New York Daily News, which is if you've seen the Superman movies, it's actually they call it the Daily Planet, but they shoot the movies the Daily News, which is where I worked, And so as a tabloid reporter. I was steeped in the city. You know, I went everywhere on stories hither and Yon, and I had a very i'd say realistic view of the city based on being very much part of it. And that's very different from I think the way the story obviously resonated around the world because if you watch you know, TV shows, especially Law and Order Geez set in New York City, you think there's a murder every second, and there are always children, and they're always raped beforehand, and they're always cut into pieces. And in fact, the crime rate, the crime rate right now is crazy because of COVID, but for since the nineties, the crime rate has been going down, down, down, down, down. So given all that, I didn't think we were crazy, And in fact, there are a lot of things that I wouldn't let my nine year old do, and that I'm sorry that my twenty two year old does. I absolutely I am terrified of cars, but I guess he has to drive. But taking the subway did not strike me as crazy.

Every now and again, also kids off to play in the park, or I'll tell them to go for a walk around the block, or jump on their bikes and ride to school or whatever it might be. And as they leave the driveway, my heart goes with them, and I think to myself, I know what the crime statistics are. Loosely, I know that I live in a pretty safe area. I know all of these things. But there's this part of me that just seizes up and thinks, what have you just done. You've sent the ten year old on a bike ride with a twelve year old. What's going to happen? Now? It's a challenging thing. And then you know, maybe the six year old says, can I go too? And I think to myself, well, can I send a six year old in the care of a ten and a twelve year old? And at this point the answer is no, because she's six. But it's a really, really, really big challenge to kind of encounter and work through these things, even when you know rationally that it should be just fine.

Every now and again, also kids off to play in the park, or I'll tell them to go for a walk around the block, or jump on their bikes and ride to school or whatever it might be. And as they leave the driveway, my heart goes with them, and I think to myself, I know what the crime statistics are. Loosely, I know that I live in a pretty safe area. I know all of these things. But there's this part of me that just seizes up and thinks, what have you just done. You've sent the ten year old on a bike ride with a twelve year old. What's going to happen? Now? It's a challenging thing. And then you know, maybe the six year old says, can I go too? And I think to myself, well, can I send a six year old in the care of a ten and a twelve year old? And at this point the answer is no, because she's six. But it's a really, really, really big challenge to kind of encounter and work through these things, even when you know rationally that it should be just fine.

I've just said the last This weekend, my kids were visiting me and they're now twenty two and twenty four, and when they were driving home together, I was like, both my kids are in the carriage. Oh no, oh no, which is just normal. But here's what we're talking about. You're saying is it rational or irrational to worry this way, to calculate the odds as we're doing. I'd say that there's no way to be a parent without being worried, or at least I haven't figured that out yet. But what I think is different from our about our generation. I'm actually I'm older than you, so about your generation, and then our parents are grandparents or anybody before that, is that when my mom let me walk to school, and it was age five, and she didn't do it because she was a free range mom or a crazy person. She was doing it because everybody let their kids walk to school at age five in the suburb where I was growing up outside of Chicago. She was a nervous mom. You know, she was a regular mom. But back then you let kids do that, and when you let the children go, you weren't sitting there going, oh my god, I hope she makes it. It's going to be about a six minute walk, and she's only five, and she's so well and the world is such a terrible place and if anything terable happened to her, I couldn't live with myself. Forget it. I'm gonna go get her and drive her myself and that simply wasn't the catechism Back then, you didn't have to go through what about you know? And then name you know? What about you know? Elizabeth Smart? What about you know? Maddie McCann. You weren't thinking that a normal mom, a normal good mom, should be thinking about the murder of their child every time the child was out of their sight, or the death on the bike on the walk on you know. So that is new, and it feels normal because we it is normal to worry. But I feel like these new extravagant worries are super imposed on us by a culture that I've seen up close, in part because of the question that was asked to me. You know, I let my son ride the subway. Okay, most interviewers at the very beginning, and I'd say the very beginning. For the first four years, I would say, we're saying, okay, you know, he had a good time, you're proud, he's elated, he feels grown up. Great, that's all great, But what if he hadn't come home? Framing it in the negative? I never had a good answer. How would I have felt? Funny? You should ask, I'd feel great because I don't have to feed another kid. I mean, there was like no normal answer that you could give to that question other than this is how I'd feel. And in a way, this is what they were trying to make me feel. They were trying to take a positive story and turn it back into the story that television loves, which is he never came home. So the fact that he did come home, Okay, let's ignore that and think about how terrible a mom she would have been if that had happened. And why wasn't she thinking that way? You're always supposed to be thinking in this extremely dark, dystopian way about your kid if they're beyond your sight, and that's what's new, And I feel like it's superimposed by questions like that. When an interview would say, well, how would you have felt, it's like, you know how I feel. I would feel lower than hell. Okay, but why are we talking about it? Why? You know, why can't we celebrate when a kid does something normal that I'd say, you know, most nine year olds could do if they felt like it. Worry is normal, but us worrying when the kid goes around the block worrying. I would say, even if a six year old is with a ten and a twelve year old who love him or her and care about them. That's new.

I've just said the last This weekend, my kids were visiting me and they're now twenty two and twenty four, and when they were driving home together, I was like, both my kids are in the carriage. Oh no, oh no, which is just normal. But here's what we're talking about. You're saying is it rational or irrational to worry this way, to calculate the odds as we're doing. I'd say that there's no way to be a parent without being worried, or at least I haven't figured that out yet. But what I think is different from our about our generation. I'm actually I'm older than you, so about your generation, and then our parents are grandparents or anybody before that, is that when my mom let me walk to school, and it was age five, and she didn't do it because she was a free range mom or a crazy person. She was doing it because everybody let their kids walk to school at age five in the suburb where I was growing up outside of Chicago. She was a nervous mom. You know, she was a regular mom. But back then you let kids do that, and when you let the children go, you weren't sitting there going, oh my god, I hope she makes it. It's going to be about a six minute walk, and she's only five, and she's so well and the world is such a terrible place and if anything terable happened to her, I couldn't live with myself. Forget it. I'm gonna go get her and drive her myself and that simply wasn't the catechism Back then, you didn't have to go through what about you know? And then name you know? What about you know? Elizabeth Smart? What about you know? Maddie McCann. You weren't thinking that a normal mom, a normal good mom, should be thinking about the murder of their child every time the child was out of their sight, or the death on the bike on the walk on you know. So that is new, and it feels normal because we it is normal to worry. But I feel like these new extravagant worries are super imposed on us by a culture that I've seen up close, in part because of the question that was asked to me. You know, I let my son ride the subway. Okay, most interviewers at the very beginning, and I'd say the very beginning. For the first four years, I would say, we're saying, okay, you know, he had a good time, you're proud, he's elated, he feels grown up. Great, that's all great, But what if he hadn't come home? Framing it in the negative? I never had a good answer. How would I have felt? Funny? You should ask, I'd feel great because I don't have to feed another kid. I mean, there was like no normal answer that you could give to that question other than this is how I'd feel. And in a way, this is what they were trying to make me feel. They were trying to take a positive story and turn it back into the story that television loves, which is he never came home. So the fact that he did come home, Okay, let's ignore that and think about how terrible a mom she would have been if that had happened. And why wasn't she thinking that way? You're always supposed to be thinking in this extremely dark, dystopian way about your kid if they're beyond your sight, and that's what's new, And I feel like it's superimposed by questions like that. When an interview would say, well, how would you have felt, it's like, you know how I feel. I would feel lower than hell. Okay, but why are we talking about it? Why? You know, why can't we celebrate when a kid does something normal that I'd say, you know, most nine year olds could do if they felt like it. Worry is normal, but us worrying when the kid goes around the block worrying. I would say, even if a six year old is with a ten and a twelve year old who love him or her and care about them. That's new.

What I'm interested in is this, You've been doing some work with let grow dot org with one of the best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Hate and actually two of the.

What I'm interested in is this, You've been doing some work with let grow dot org with one of the best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Hate and actually two of the.

Best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Height, and also Peter Gray, doctor Peter Gray.

Best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Height, and also Peter Gray, doctor Peter Gray.

Now you're just showing off genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I just want to talk about John at the moment because his research is what has fascinated me the most, because Peter really focuses on the play aspect of life, and John has always focused so much more on the I guess, on the social psychology and the data and trends. And what I'm really curious about is what as you've worked as a trio, what have you discovered in the data, what's the data showing in terms of this, Well, is there a trend? And everybody's you know, getting so excited about the outlaws the unusual stories.

Now you're just showing off genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I just want to talk about John at the moment because his research is what has fascinated me the most, because Peter really focuses on the play aspect of life, and John has always focused so much more on the I guess, on the social psychology and the data and trends. And what I'm really curious about is what as you've worked as a trio, what have you discovered in the data, what's the data showing in terms of this, Well, is there a trend? And everybody's you know, getting so excited about the outlaws the unusual stories.

First of all, I do think there's something. I'm happy you mentioned the outliers and the unusual stories because I feel like they are driving so much of our regular life based on the saddest, worst, most anomalous, unpredictable stories that if there was some way we could get rid of the story of one horrible accident or one horrible crime, or one horrible shooting, I think we would all be at a much better set point rather than using those terrible, outlying stories as the norm from which we decide how we should live our lives. But the thing that son, Jonathan Heyde is a big fan of free range kids, and he's raising his free range kids, and I feel great about that. But he came to me a couple of years ago, and his hypothesis was that young adults, and by young adults re meets college age and a little bit beyond were becoming fragile. And as it turns out, doctor Peter Gray had noticed this too. That you know, I think it's great when kids go for you know, the psychological services they need. And believe me, I live in New York, I'm a Jew, I'm a woman. I've been to as much therapy as anybody could posibly have because of these demographics. So I love therapy. However, it seems like at this point on the college campuses, and I'm talking about before COVID because COVID is just so weird that the colleges could not keep up with the number of kids who were seeking therapy and who seemed to be falling apart and not falling apart after a breakup with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or something very large, but often after a bee like a not a bee like this, like a bee, or after an argument with the roommate, after a mouse in the dorm. And John and Peter were thinking, where is this fragility coming from? Why do the kids think they need to talk to either counselor or they have to talk to their dean because they're so worried about their grades, or they're calling their parents as they walk across the campus because they feel afraid to walk without talking to somebody while they're crossing the campus. This seemed new, and it seems sad. You know, here it is this blossoming time of your life, and yet a lot of kids were very, very anxious and depressed. And if you're asking about the data, the data are that anxiety and depression among young people has been going up for the last several decades. And I you talk about it, but so suicide. So it's not just you know, choosing to call more things depressed or kids saying I'm depressed because there's a certain social cachet to it. It really does seemed to be weighing on the kids. And so John came to me and said, I think this is starting younger. You seem to be the only person. I'm not the only person who is trying to fight the over protection that seems to be undermining kids. And let's work together and start a nonprofit that tries to overthrow the over protection that is not helping kids, it's hurting kids. And so I said, no, I didn't want to start a nonprofit. I'm a journalist by trade. I liked just being a lone wolf on my free range track. But a couple of years later he persuaded me. And also by then, I've found somebody who actually knows about how to start a business. And so together the three of us plus Daniel Stuckman, who used to be the chairman of Fire, which fights for free speech on campus, also worrying that there was a trend on campus where kids were saying that if somebody came to speak whom they didn't like or whom they disagreed with, rather than saying why'd they invite this jerk? Or rather than reading up on that person's work and then coming and raising your hand at you know, in the Q and a time and you know, offering a piercing critique and the question to boot. Instead they were saying, don't let them come on campus. They I'm not safe if this speaker is coming to campus. And we're not talking about a rabble rousing, you know, machette wielding speaker. We're talking about a speaker with a difference of opinion or often in a different political party. And so Daniel was worried that free speech was going to die because if it seems like it's actually hurting somebody, actually physically harming someone, how could you fight for it. How can a president of a college say no, we're going to have that person come speak anyway if the students feel like that is literally putting them in danger. So there's this idea of the sort of through line too. All this is seeing a normal situation that everybody has doubt in the past, whether it's a speaker you don't like or a walk to get your cricket magazine, and instead of seeing it as just something that either is okay or maybe even good. It was all seen through the lens of risk and danger. And so we've started let Grow with the desire to start so young with kids, getting them used to being part of the world, being challenged, standing up for themselves, having fun, being curious, following their interests, organizing a game without some adult deciding whether you're in or out and moves on what team, just doing some of these age old things that seem to be since time immemorial part of childhood, giving them back to children and making parents feel that it's a good idea, that it's not crazy dangerous, and that actually you're doing something that you know. Not only does let Grow approve a bit, but these extremely vaunted social psychologists and other psyche moral psychologists think it's good for your kids. So we want to to renormalize the idea of giving kids back some independence.

First of all, I do think there's something. I'm happy you mentioned the outliers and the unusual stories because I feel like they are driving so much of our regular life based on the saddest, worst, most anomalous, unpredictable stories that if there was some way we could get rid of the story of one horrible accident or one horrible crime, or one horrible shooting, I think we would all be at a much better set point rather than using those terrible, outlying stories as the norm from which we decide how we should live our lives. But the thing that son, Jonathan Heyde is a big fan of free range kids, and he's raising his free range kids, and I feel great about that. But he came to me a couple of years ago, and his hypothesis was that young adults, and by young adults re meets college age and a little bit beyond were becoming fragile. And as it turns out, doctor Peter Gray had noticed this too. That you know, I think it's great when kids go for you know, the psychological services they need. And believe me, I live in New York, I'm a Jew, I'm a woman. I've been to as much therapy as anybody could posibly have because of these demographics. So I love therapy. However, it seems like at this point on the college campuses, and I'm talking about before COVID because COVID is just so weird that the colleges could not keep up with the number of kids who were seeking therapy and who seemed to be falling apart and not falling apart after a breakup with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or something very large, but often after a bee like a not a bee like this, like a bee, or after an argument with the roommate, after a mouse in the dorm. And John and Peter were thinking, where is this fragility coming from? Why do the kids think they need to talk to either counselor or they have to talk to their dean because they're so worried about their grades, or they're calling their parents as they walk across the campus because they feel afraid to walk without talking to somebody while they're crossing the campus. This seemed new, and it seems sad. You know, here it is this blossoming time of your life, and yet a lot of kids were very, very anxious and depressed. And if you're asking about the data, the data are that anxiety and depression among young people has been going up for the last several decades. And I you talk about it, but so suicide. So it's not just you know, choosing to call more things depressed or kids saying I'm depressed because there's a certain social cachet to it. It really does seemed to be weighing on the kids. And so John came to me and said, I think this is starting younger. You seem to be the only person. I'm not the only person who is trying to fight the over protection that seems to be undermining kids. And let's work together and start a nonprofit that tries to overthrow the over protection that is not helping kids, it's hurting kids. And so I said, no, I didn't want to start a nonprofit. I'm a journalist by trade. I liked just being a lone wolf on my free range track. But a couple of years later he persuaded me. And also by then, I've found somebody who actually knows about how to start a business. And so together the three of us plus Daniel Stuckman, who used to be the chairman of Fire, which fights for free speech on campus, also worrying that there was a trend on campus where kids were saying that if somebody came to speak whom they didn't like or whom they disagreed with, rather than saying why'd they invite this jerk? Or rather than reading up on that person's work and then coming and raising your hand at you know, in the Q and a time and you know, offering a piercing critique and the question to boot. Instead they were saying, don't let them come on campus. They I'm not safe if this speaker is coming to campus. And we're not talking about a rabble rousing, you know, machette wielding speaker. We're talking about a speaker with a difference of opinion or often in a different political party. And so Daniel was worried that free speech was going to die because if it seems like it's actually hurting somebody, actually physically harming someone, how could you fight for it. How can a president of a college say no, we're going to have that person come speak anyway if the students feel like that is literally putting them in danger. So there's this idea of the sort of through line too. All this is seeing a normal situation that everybody has doubt in the past, whether it's a speaker you don't like or a walk to get your cricket magazine, and instead of seeing it as just something that either is okay or maybe even good. It was all seen through the lens of risk and danger. And so we've started let Grow with the desire to start so young with kids, getting them used to being part of the world, being challenged, standing up for themselves, having fun, being curious, following their interests, organizing a game without some adult deciding whether you're in or out and moves on what team, just doing some of these age old things that seem to be since time immemorial part of childhood, giving them back to children and making parents feel that it's a good idea, that it's not crazy dangerous, and that actually you're doing something that you know. Not only does let Grow approve a bit, but these extremely vaunted social psychologists and other psyche moral psychologists think it's good for your kids. So we want to to renormalize the idea of giving kids back some independence.

There are so many things that I want to pull out of there, and time is going to get the better of us because there's still so much that I want to talk to you about. Maybe I've just made three notes as I've listened to everything that you've said, and I'm going to ignore the rest of it. Not because it's not brilliant to discuss, but simply because timeline allows us to discuss all of that. The first thing that I want to highlight is something that you prompted in my memory. As you talk about the trends and the data. I've been looking into perfectionism recently, and my sense, yeah, my sense is that perfectionism is following the same trend and is probably linked here. The idea with perfectionism is that I either expect a lot of myself or I feel like everybody else expects a lot of me. And it seems that the most complex and debilitating form of perfectionism. There is another form as well, by the way, and that's when you expect perfection of those outside you. So there are three forms of it, but the one that seems to be most debilitating is the one where we have an expectation that everybody around us expects so much of us and we can't possibly live up to it. And what I'm hearing as I think about John and Greg Lukenof's book The Coddling of the American Mind, and I think about the things that you've just talked about, is there seems to be this desire on the part of parents to create a perfect world for their children, a world where their children don't have to take risks and always do feel safe, because if we can create that instagram worthy perfect world, and I know that, I guess I'm relying on tropes and stereotypes a little bit as I summarize a whole lot of things here. Parents feel like they can control everything to give their kids the best outcomes, and aligned with that, the data doesn't just show the points that you've made around safetyism, I guess, but the data also shows that what we would call autonomy supportive parenting, That is parenting along the lines of what you've just discidribed with your son when he called that subway tryin as a nine year old. That is, you sit down and you put the scaffolding in, You do the pre work, You make sure that they're going to be okay, and say, all right, it's your life. If you go, I'm with you.

There are so many things that I want to pull out of there, and time is going to get the better of us because there's still so much that I want to talk to you about. Maybe I've just made three notes as I've listened to everything that you've said, and I'm going to ignore the rest of it. Not because it's not brilliant to discuss, but simply because timeline allows us to discuss all of that. The first thing that I want to highlight is something that you prompted in my memory. As you talk about the trends and the data. I've been looking into perfectionism recently, and my sense, yeah, my sense is that perfectionism is following the same trend and is probably linked here. The idea with perfectionism is that I either expect a lot of myself or I feel like everybody else expects a lot of me. And it seems that the most complex and debilitating form of perfectionism. There is another form as well, by the way, and that's when you expect perfection of those outside you. So there are three forms of it, but the one that seems to be most debilitating is the one where we have an expectation that everybody around us expects so much of us and we can't possibly live up to it. And what I'm hearing as I think about John and Greg Lukenof's book The Coddling of the American Mind, and I think about the things that you've just talked about, is there seems to be this desire on the part of parents to create a perfect world for their children, a world where their children don't have to take risks and always do feel safe, because if we can create that instagram worthy perfect world, and I know that, I guess I'm relying on tropes and stereotypes a little bit as I summarize a whole lot of things here. Parents feel like they can control everything to give their kids the best outcomes, and aligned with that, the data doesn't just show the points that you've made around safetyism, I guess, but the data also shows that what we would call autonomy supportive parenting, That is parenting along the lines of what you've just discidribed with your son when he called that subway tryin as a nine year old. That is, you sit down and you put the scaffolding in, You do the pre work, You make sure that they're going to be okay, and say, all right, it's your life. If you go, I'm with you.

Now, I just have to jump in. There's som much to say. First of all, you can never say you're going to be fine, because that's that is the idea of control, I mean, the illusion that we can control for every variable. It leads to bureaucracy pickup.

Now, I just have to jump in. There's som much to say. First of all, you can never say you're going to be fine, because that's that is the idea of control, I mean, the illusion that we can control for every variable. It leads to bureaucracy pickup.

Yes, yes, and.

Yes, yes, and.

I think it leads to extreme nervousness on the part of parents because there's no there's no acknowledgment that like, we can't control everything. We aren't God. You know, we think we are. We have the phones, we can track them, we can see who they texted, we can you know, there's cameras everywhere. But in fact we're not in complete control. And you know, if you think you are, you will never be able to let go at all because you will think if anything bad happens, there will be no grace.

I think it leads to extreme nervousness on the part of parents because there's no there's no acknowledgment that like, we can't control everything. We aren't God. You know, we think we are. We have the phones, we can track them, we can see who they texted, we can you know, there's cameras everywhere. But in fact we're not in complete control. And you know, if you think you are, you will never be able to let go at all because you will think if anything bad happens, there will be no grace.

So it's really no, it's more it's more about not saying you be fun. It's more about saying I feel like we've done everything we can to help you to have a good experience. I hope you'll be fine, but if you won't, we'll do what we need to, or you'll do what you need to to make it fun eventually.

So it's really no, it's more it's more about not saying you be fun. It's more about saying I feel like we've done everything we can to help you to have a good experience. I hope you'll be fine, but if you won't, we'll do what we need to, or you'll do what you need to to make it fun eventually.

Well, first of all, part of it is, yes, trusting that your kid can roll with some punches. Yeah, I mean, part of it is that we're told that the kids are as fragile, so we treat them as gradual and it becomes this sort of princess and the pe you know exercise where we keep making things safer and better until they expect too much more. But back to perfectionism, you know you're mentioning. It makes me want to actually research it more because I think it is like a third almost disability that we are imposing upon kids. And I say this because there's this one seventh grade teacher I just love who did the Lecro project, which is sending kids home with the homework assignment. You must do something on your own without your parents that you haven't done before. You know, walk the dog, make dinner, you know, run an errand babysit whatever. She was talking about. One of the reasons she decided to do the project with her class is that she'd never seen a group of kids and this was a year ago as nervous as the seventh grader she had. And one of the one of the sort of ways she explained to me what was going on is she'll say, I'll say, okay, take out your paper and you know, put your name on it. We're going to have a quiz. And they would be like, we put her name in the right hand side or the left hand side, and it's like the left hand side, Yeah, but just the last name, you know, do you need the date on it? And and to me that that bespeaks perfectionism or a fear, and fear is at the bottom of it. It's like if I do one thing wrong, if I get a bad grade, if I disappoint the teacher, if I look stupid. The thing that she kept saying that the kids kept saying to her is I don't want to get out of my comfort zone. And the comfort zone is extremely narrow, to the point where she said that one kid came to her class it was actually an extra class at lunchtime, a little late kid didn't have time to get her lunch. So the teacher said, okay, just go get your lunch and you know, well, you know when you come back, you'll just jump right in. And the kids said, by myself. And so that struck me as like you've developed so little self confidence that you don't think you can handle anything, whether it's you know, what if you put your name on the paper wrong, what if you're walking by yourself to the cafeteria and it's scary or lonely. This is your school. You're seventh grader, you're thirteen years old, you know, in some countries you'd be dragooned into the army by then, which I also think is a bad idea, but to raise these kids. And so then she had them write down what they would like to do for their you know, what was their thing that they were hesitant to do, but they wanted to do for theirlet Grow project. And the answers were, I want to walk my dog, but what if he gets off the leash. I want to go and run an errand, but the store is filled with strangers. I want to use a knife, but I'm afraid of cutting off my fingers. So everything was was so terrifying to them, the simplest things, And parents have kept them from walking to school because it might be dangerous. And don't use the knife, you might hurt yourself, and I'll run the errand with you. You don't know this, you know, you don't know where the stuff is in the store. You've never made change for yourself, you don't know how to talk to the cashier. Well, of course they don't know how to do anything if you've done them for them the whole time, and you've created the very ineptitude that you're worried about them having and in the in the absence of doing anything on your own and succeeding, in the absence of taking that long walk and getting the cricket magazine because you say for it, you walk to it. It was too far and you did it anyway. Without that Jenga piece, kids are falling apart. And all I'm saying is, let's remember that there's no such thing as I want a zero risk childhood for my kid. It's like, when you're taking away all that risk, you're raising the risk of depression, anxiety, perfectionism, despair because all you've raised is a person who looks like a person, but there's nothing inside. It hasn't been knitted together by life. You have to take a step back for your kids to step up. That's it.

Well, first of all, part of it is, yes, trusting that your kid can roll with some punches. Yeah, I mean, part of it is that we're told that the kids are as fragile, so we treat them as gradual and it becomes this sort of princess and the pe you know exercise where we keep making things safer and better until they expect too much more. But back to perfectionism, you know you're mentioning. It makes me want to actually research it more because I think it is like a third almost disability that we are imposing upon kids. And I say this because there's this one seventh grade teacher I just love who did the Lecro project, which is sending kids home with the homework assignment. You must do something on your own without your parents that you haven't done before. You know, walk the dog, make dinner, you know, run an errand babysit whatever. She was talking about. One of the reasons she decided to do the project with her class is that she'd never seen a group of kids and this was a year ago as nervous as the seventh grader she had. And one of the one of the sort of ways she explained to me what was going on is she'll say, I'll say, okay, take out your paper and you know, put your name on it. We're going to have a quiz. And they would be like, we put her name in the right hand side or the left hand side, and it's like the left hand side, Yeah, but just the last name, you know, do you need the date on it? And and to me that that bespeaks perfectionism or a fear, and fear is at the bottom of it. It's like if I do one thing wrong, if I get a bad grade, if I disappoint the teacher, if I look stupid. The thing that she kept saying that the kids kept saying to her is I don't want to get out of my comfort zone. And the comfort zone is extremely narrow, to the point where she said that one kid came to her class it was actually an extra class at lunchtime, a little late kid didn't have time to get her lunch. So the teacher said, okay, just go get your lunch and you know, well, you know when you come back, you'll just jump right in. And the kids said, by myself. And so that struck me as like you've developed so little self confidence that you don't think you can handle anything, whether it's you know, what if you put your name on the paper wrong, what if you're walking by yourself to the cafeteria and it's scary or lonely. This is your school. You're seventh grader, you're thirteen years old, you know, in some countries you'd be dragooned into the army by then, which I also think is a bad idea, but to raise these kids. And so then she had them write down what they would like to do for their you know, what was their thing that they were hesitant to do, but they wanted to do for theirlet Grow project. And the answers were, I want to walk my dog, but what if he gets off the leash. I want to go and run an errand, but the store is filled with strangers. I want to use a knife, but I'm afraid of cutting off my fingers. So everything was was so terrifying to them, the simplest things, And parents have kept them from walking to school because it might be dangerous. And don't use the knife, you might hurt yourself, and I'll run the errand with you. You don't know this, you know, you don't know where the stuff is in the store. You've never made change for yourself, you don't know how to talk to the cashier. Well, of course they don't know how to do anything if you've done them for them the whole time, and you've created the very ineptitude that you're worried about them having and in the in the absence of doing anything on your own and succeeding, in the absence of taking that long walk and getting the cricket magazine because you say for it, you walk to it. It was too far and you did it anyway. Without that Jenga piece, kids are falling apart. And all I'm saying is, let's remember that there's no such thing as I want a zero risk childhood for my kid. It's like, when you're taking away all that risk, you're raising the risk of depression, anxiety, perfectionism, despair because all you've raised is a person who looks like a person, but there's nothing inside. It hasn't been knitted together by life. You have to take a step back for your kids to step up. That's it.

I love your passion. I'm thinking so many again, so many thoughts. Let me uh, let me, let me go back a quick step. You know why kids love kids books because they're always about the kids. The parents. The parents are vanished. Where are the parents? The kids are living their lives and they're they're exploring the woods, or they're climbing the trees, they're having their adventures and.

I love your passion. I'm thinking so many again, so many thoughts. Let me uh, let me, let me go back a quick step. You know why kids love kids books because they're always about the kids. The parents. The parents are vanished. Where are the parents? The kids are living their lives and they're they're exploring the woods, or they're climbing the trees, they're having their adventures and.

The and then yes, there's so.

The and then yes, there's so.

Much joy to be had when the parents run around. I've heard you talk about the difference between risk and risky, right, risk.

Much joy to be had when the parents run around. I've heard you talk about the difference between risk and risky, right, risk.

Is inherent and everything. I mean, boy, I don't watch them, but a friend who watches the home improvement shows, you know, I wish I had a better looking pass. Obviously, I don't watch the home improvement shows look at this place, but those who do tell me that they keep hearing a couple of things, parents that are saying that they seems like it's a normal desire. Right now, there's parents saying, I don't want any walls in the you know, I want to be able to have a clear sight line to my kids at all times. It's like those poor kids, you know, sometimes you just want to get away from your mom and sneak the comic book. You know.

Is inherent and everything. I mean, boy, I don't watch them, but a friend who watches the home improvement shows, you know, I wish I had a better looking pass. Obviously, I don't watch the home improvement shows look at this place, but those who do tell me that they keep hearing a couple of things, parents that are saying that they seems like it's a normal desire. Right now, there's parents saying, I don't want any walls in the you know, I want to be able to have a clear sight line to my kids at all times. It's like those poor kids, you know, sometimes you just want to get away from your mom and sneak the comic book. You know.

Oh, it's like social media, right. The kids have discovered that parents are always watching what they're doing because social media is risky. And let's face it, there is risk in anything that happens online and everything, but the kids.

Oh, it's like social media, right. The kids have discovered that parents are always watching what they're doing because social media is risky. And let's face it, there is risk in anything that happens online and everything, but the kids.

There's also risk in not doing it and being the only one who doesn't have a you know, a way of communicating and planning. But I wanted to say, the idea of risk and risky and so so the parents want to get rid of the site, you know, any any blocks to sitelines and then a lot of times and I haven't seen these, so this is heresay. They don't want a house with stairs. And what's interesting about that is that of course they're afraid of their kids falling down the stairs. How do you learn not to fall down the stairs? Got to you gotta climb some The stairstairs are not like a weird part of life that you could avoid like oysters, you know, or or esque argo or something. It does like why I'm only thinking about shelled fish, I don't know. But the point is that stairs, like the actual contours of the earth are sort of like stairs. There are hills, there are mountains, there are valleys, there are streams, there are rocks, there are trees. The idea that you should have a completely flat, no stairs, no you know, blockades between you and the child effort is like setting a prison. I mean, you're trying to create a panopticon where you see the child all the time, you can be in control all the time, and parents are unashamedly asking for that on these home improvement shows. Which I feel is why we feel so scared as parents. If this is the norm to the point where it's like houses are being built to accommodate these parents, then you start feeling like it is normal to worry about your kid walking up and down the stairs, walking out the door, ever, riding a bike, doing anything on their own. And that just keeps reinforcing the idea that you should be you know, always seeing, all knowing and hovering, which then leads to us doing that and leads to the things you were talking about before, the depression of the anxiety. So there's no no risk because if you're taking out the risk of climbing the stairs, you're instilling the risk of like stairs, ah, which you don't want either.

There's also risk in not doing it and being the only one who doesn't have a you know, a way of communicating and planning. But I wanted to say, the idea of risk and risky and so so the parents want to get rid of the site, you know, any any blocks to sitelines and then a lot of times and I haven't seen these, so this is heresay. They don't want a house with stairs. And what's interesting about that is that of course they're afraid of their kids falling down the stairs. How do you learn not to fall down the stairs? Got to you gotta climb some The stairstairs are not like a weird part of life that you could avoid like oysters, you know, or or esque argo or something. It does like why I'm only thinking about shelled fish, I don't know. But the point is that stairs, like the actual contours of the earth are sort of like stairs. There are hills, there are mountains, there are valleys, there are streams, there are rocks, there are trees. The idea that you should have a completely flat, no stairs, no you know, blockades between you and the child effort is like setting a prison. I mean, you're trying to create a panopticon where you see the child all the time, you can be in control all the time, and parents are unashamedly asking for that on these home improvement shows. Which I feel is why we feel so scared as parents. If this is the norm to the point where it's like houses are being built to accommodate these parents, then you start feeling like it is normal to worry about your kid walking up and down the stairs, walking out the door, ever, riding a bike, doing anything on their own. And that just keeps reinforcing the idea that you should be you know, always seeing, all knowing and hovering, which then leads to us doing that and leads to the things you were talking about before, the depression of the anxiety. So there's no no risk because if you're taking out the risk of climbing the stairs, you're instilling the risk of like stairs, ah, which you don't want either.

There's a difference, though, between excepting that there is risk in heron in law and actively pursuing risky things.

There's a difference, though, between excepting that there is risk in heron in law and actively pursuing risky things.

Yeah, risky things, yuck, franky, you know, I'm just as I mean, I believe in Look, put on your seat belt. Seat belt does not change your experience at all. Right, You're still in the car going where you're going, getting there at the exact same time. Put on a helmet, you still get to ride your bike. Put on a mouthguard, you'll keep all your teeth while you're playing soccer, rugby, football, whatever. But those are risks that can be mitigated. And I'd say that certainly in the case of a car, they're real risks. The number one way kids die is as car pass. But to rewrite using a sharp knife as a risk because there is a teeny tiny risk, not even a teeny tiny risk, there's a somewhat risk that you might nick yourself. But I keep wanting to do a video and nobody wants to do this with me where it shows like you're worried about your kids chopping off their finger. Let's see how much it takes. And I'm not willing to do this video, but I think it would take a lot of chopping, you know, with a serrated knife that you're using for your cucumbers, to actually chop off that finger. And so to call that risky when it's simply a risk, and in the meantime, your kids are getting adept at making a meal, being confident, being trusted, being part of the economy of the house as opposed to just the king. I think that you can't say that that's only a risk. It's a risk in not letting.

Yeah, risky things, yuck, franky, you know, I'm just as I mean, I believe in Look, put on your seat belt. Seat belt does not change your experience at all. Right, You're still in the car going where you're going, getting there at the exact same time. Put on a helmet, you still get to ride your bike. Put on a mouthguard, you'll keep all your teeth while you're playing soccer, rugby, football, whatever. But those are risks that can be mitigated. And I'd say that certainly in the case of a car, they're real risks. The number one way kids die is as car pass. But to rewrite using a sharp knife as a risk because there is a teeny tiny risk, not even a teeny tiny risk, there's a somewhat risk that you might nick yourself. But I keep wanting to do a video and nobody wants to do this with me where it shows like you're worried about your kids chopping off their finger. Let's see how much it takes. And I'm not willing to do this video, but I think it would take a lot of chopping, you know, with a serrated knife that you're using for your cucumbers, to actually chop off that finger. And so to call that risky when it's simply a risk, and in the meantime, your kids are getting adept at making a meal, being confident, being trusted, being part of the economy of the house as opposed to just the king. I think that you can't say that that's only a risk. It's a risk in not letting.

Your kid use a knife in a recent podcast, and by the way, so let grow has You've got a brand new podcast that you've been doing, and I'm I'm already caught up on it. The name of the podcast is Supervision Not Require Love This. And in one of your more recent episodes, you said, and I quote fear it doesn't prevent this, but life.

Your kid use a knife in a recent podcast, and by the way, so let grow has You've got a brand new podcast that you've been doing, and I'm I'm already caught up on it. The name of the podcast is Supervision Not Require Love This. And in one of your more recent episodes, you said, and I quote fear it doesn't prevent this, but life.

Yeah, it prevents life. Yeah, And I wish I could take credit for it, but it's probably from a fortune cookie or something. I mean, I heard it elsewhere, but it's so true. I Mean, sometimes it feels like worrying is a substitute for doing or for anything else. It's like, oh, I'm doing something great, I'm worried, and believe me, I'm a worrier. So I know that that's a major time suck and also a joy suck. But worrying doesn't change things. Yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna worry about your kids and you are, teach them the things that we've just been talking about. Teach them to cross the streets safely, teach them that they can talk to strangers, they can't go walk with strangers. Teach them never to get into anybody's car. Teach them to look both ways, actually three times. When you're at the corner're supposed to look left, right, left again. I don't remember why, but I learned it in kindergarten and then I just read it again recently, so it must be true. You know, teach them the things that parents have always taught their kids. It's about life. But until recently, it wasn't that we assumed that we were going to be with them every second. And then the way they don't even have to learn anything because we're always going to be with them or watching them, and that's it. Assume that it's safer for your kids to gain some independence and to have some you know, not horrible experiences, but a couple of you know, things that were thwarted, some disappointments, some frustration. My kid got a trophy for eighth place in bowling out of nine leagues. I'm insulted on his behalf. Are you thinking that he can't tell that, you know, he's second to last out of nine teams. I mean he can handle. He can handle the frustration, and if he wants to get good at bowling, well, now he knows he's got a long way to go, so he can either practice or accept the fact. But the idea of pretending like there's there should be no frustration ever, and you still got a trophy, that's an insult to the human spirit.

Yeah, it prevents life. Yeah, And I wish I could take credit for it, but it's probably from a fortune cookie or something. I mean, I heard it elsewhere, but it's so true. I Mean, sometimes it feels like worrying is a substitute for doing or for anything else. It's like, oh, I'm doing something great, I'm worried, and believe me, I'm a worrier. So I know that that's a major time suck and also a joy suck. But worrying doesn't change things. Yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna worry about your kids and you are, teach them the things that we've just been talking about. Teach them to cross the streets safely, teach them that they can talk to strangers, they can't go walk with strangers. Teach them never to get into anybody's car. Teach them to look both ways, actually three times. When you're at the corner're supposed to look left, right, left again. I don't remember why, but I learned it in kindergarten and then I just read it again recently, so it must be true. You know, teach them the things that parents have always taught their kids. It's about life. But until recently, it wasn't that we assumed that we were going to be with them every second. And then the way they don't even have to learn anything because we're always going to be with them or watching them, and that's it. Assume that it's safer for your kids to gain some independence and to have some you know, not horrible experiences, but a couple of you know, things that were thwarted, some disappointments, some frustration. My kid got a trophy for eighth place in bowling out of nine leagues. I'm insulted on his behalf. Are you thinking that he can't tell that, you know, he's second to last out of nine teams. I mean he can handle. He can handle the frustration, and if he wants to get good at bowling, well, now he knows he's got a long way to go, so he can either practice or accept the fact. But the idea of pretending like there's there should be no frustration ever, and you still got a trophy, that's an insult to the human spirit.

I have a couple of questions before or I get to my final five that we whizz through very quickly to learn a bit more about it.

I have a couple of questions before or I get to my final five that we whizz through very quickly to learn a bit more about it.

But I know you sent me the final five before, and I don't know the answer, so we'll probably actually have to creep through them very slowly. As I said, I guess myself, but we'll.

But I know you sent me the final five before, and I don't know the answer, so we'll probably actually have to creep through them very slowly. As I said, I guess myself, but we'll.

See how we go. So a couple of quick ones just to just to try to I guess, distill and break down into really simple steps what we're dealing with when it comes to this idea of letting our kids grow, you know, let grow dot org a free range parenting our kids. In that podcast that just made me laugh out loud, you use the line we want to give our kids freedom, and then you said not so much freedom that they're hitchhiking to the crack house, but we want to give them freedom. So how do we how to parents who are really wrestling with some of the things that we've talked about today identify where do they start. How do they get to the point where they say, Okay, I will let my child walk or ride to school, or I will give them this freedom in this way or that way. How do they do that? I know that Let's got some resources to help with this, but what guidance would you give?

See how we go. So a couple of quick ones just to just to try to I guess, distill and break down into really simple steps what we're dealing with when it comes to this idea of letting our kids grow, you know, let grow dot org a free range parenting our kids. In that podcast that just made me laugh out loud, you use the line we want to give our kids freedom, and then you said not so much freedom that they're hitchhiking to the crack house, but we want to give them freedom. So how do we how to parents who are really wrestling with some of the things that we've talked about today identify where do they start. How do they get to the point where they say, Okay, I will let my child walk or ride to school, or I will give them this freedom in this way or that way. How do they do that? I know that Let's got some resources to help with this, but what guidance would you give?

Well? Yeah, first, I do have to put in a plug for our Let Grow project because it's free, and so is the elect Grow Independence Kid. Pretty Much everything that we do is free. And the reason I'm mentioning it is because it is very hard to be the only parent who is doing something that goes a little bit against the grain. If nobody is letting their kid ride their bike, you know, more than two blocks, and you say, I think you can go all the way to the you know, to the drug store, not the drug store, the pharmacy, you know, the candy store whatever, oh my god, candy. If you're saying that your kid can do something and other parents aren't, it is harder to do. And so when schools do the Let Grow project where all the teachers are sending all the kids home with the assignment they have to do something on their own, then you're not the only one. And in fact, then your kid and your neighbor's kid can go together to the park or together to the store. So the reason I recommend the Lectro project, and it's corollary for distance learning time the Elecro Independence kid, is because you don't feel alone, and that is a much easier way to go because you are changing the norms together. Right. We've heard from towns that have done this project that afterwards, like the principal went around like two weeks after her school had done the Lecro project and she saw two kids on bikes, a kid on a roller skate, and a kid on skateboard in just her little ride home, and she said she'd never seen kids outside on their own before. So it changes the norms. It's much easier to be brave when everybody else is bringing brave to the point where it doesn't even feel brave anymore. It just feels normal. Just like we were talking about at the beginning of this our discussion, when your mother would let you walk home at age seven and get yourself a snack and walk back to school. She didn't have to be an evil and evil brave. She was just part of the norm, and so were you. So it's easier when you do it together. But I would say this if you you know, if you want to do it, do it with a friend. You don't have to do it with entire school. Send your kids to do something together without you. And the thing that is so reinforcing and makes it so easy is the first time you do it. Because the first time you do it and your kid comes home and they walk through the door and they've taken the subway or they got you the milk. There's that great commercial that you guys have, I think either New Zealand or Australia about the kid who goes and gets the milk for the first time, or when they've done anything on their own and they come in and they're so proud. You will be out of your mind with pride and diddy, and that's reinforcing to yourself. You know, this delicious feeling of seeing your kid blossoming really helps you take the next step. Really, the first time is hard, and after that it just keeps getting better because it feels normal and you're proud.

Well? Yeah, first, I do have to put in a plug for our Let Grow project because it's free, and so is the elect Grow Independence Kid. Pretty Much everything that we do is free. And the reason I'm mentioning it is because it is very hard to be the only parent who is doing something that goes a little bit against the grain. If nobody is letting their kid ride their bike, you know, more than two blocks, and you say, I think you can go all the way to the you know, to the drug store, not the drug store, the pharmacy, you know, the candy store whatever, oh my god, candy. If you're saying that your kid can do something and other parents aren't, it is harder to do. And so when schools do the Let Grow project where all the teachers are sending all the kids home with the assignment they have to do something on their own, then you're not the only one. And in fact, then your kid and your neighbor's kid can go together to the park or together to the store. So the reason I recommend the Lectro project, and it's corollary for distance learning time the Elecro Independence kid, is because you don't feel alone, and that is a much easier way to go because you are changing the norms together. Right. We've heard from towns that have done this project that afterwards, like the principal went around like two weeks after her school had done the Lecro project and she saw two kids on bikes, a kid on a roller skate, and a kid on skateboard in just her little ride home, and she said she'd never seen kids outside on their own before. So it changes the norms. It's much easier to be brave when everybody else is bringing brave to the point where it doesn't even feel brave anymore. It just feels normal. Just like we were talking about at the beginning of this our discussion, when your mother would let you walk home at age seven and get yourself a snack and walk back to school. She didn't have to be an evil and evil brave. She was just part of the norm, and so were you. So it's easier when you do it together. But I would say this if you you know, if you want to do it, do it with a friend. You don't have to do it with entire school. Send your kids to do something together without you. And the thing that is so reinforcing and makes it so easy is the first time you do it. Because the first time you do it and your kid comes home and they walk through the door and they've taken the subway or they got you the milk. There's that great commercial that you guys have, I think either New Zealand or Australia about the kid who goes and gets the milk for the first time, or when they've done anything on their own and they come in and they're so proud. You will be out of your mind with pride and diddy, and that's reinforcing to yourself. You know, this delicious feeling of seeing your kid blossoming really helps you take the next step. Really, the first time is hard, and after that it just keeps getting better because it feels normal and you're proud.

So obviously a quick reminder this needs to be developmentally appropriate. We're not suggesting that we let the two year old go and click the milk on their own, or even the four year old. They need to be big enough to handle them selves in a reasonable fashion. But we can just ease off on the pressure list.

So obviously a quick reminder this needs to be developmentally appropriate. We're not suggesting that we let the two year old go and click the milk on their own, or even the four year old. They need to be big enough to handle them selves in a reasonable fashion. But we can just ease off on the pressure list.

Actually, I'm sorry I should have jumped in one second and said do the things that we were talking about before too. If you're sending your kid off, you'll feel better if you teach them how to cross the street and you walk across with a couple of times, and then you say when would you go and you say, yes, that's right, and then you let them do it. Once you see that your kids are not you know, they're not kittens, they're humans, and they will get some information into them and absorb it, that will give you a lot more calm to Yeah.

Actually, I'm sorry I should have jumped in one second and said do the things that we were talking about before too. If you're sending your kid off, you'll feel better if you teach them how to cross the street and you walk across with a couple of times, and then you say when would you go and you say, yes, that's right, and then you let them do it. Once you see that your kids are not you know, they're not kittens, they're humans, and they will get some information into them and absorb it, that will give you a lot more calm to Yeah.

The practice runs and the appropriate scaffolding and necessary so that you can see that each child does have the developmental capacity to pull this off on their own. Last question for you before we dive into these five how can we promote free range parenting?

The practice runs and the appropriate scaffolding and necessary so that you can see that each child does have the developmental capacity to pull this off on their own. Last question for you before we dive into these five how can we promote free range parenting?

Well, this independence kit that I'm recommending, the Let Grow Independence Kit, is the same thing. I mean, there's certainly a lot of things that they can still do by themselves. They can go outside, they can be making dinner for you. They can be in charge of their own homework, they can be finding new interests. You can give them freedom sometimes to play video games, and you know, not worry so much about that.

Well, this independence kit that I'm recommending, the Let Grow Independence Kit, is the same thing. I mean, there's certainly a lot of things that they can still do by themselves. They can go outside, they can be making dinner for you. They can be in charge of their own homework, they can be finding new interests. You can give them freedom sometimes to play video games, and you know, not worry so much about that.

You just imagine, imagine.

You just imagine, imagine.

That, Imagine that. You know. The thing is that when they're home and when you're home, there's just too many hours in the day to entertain or educate them yourself the whole time. So I'd say, you know, we just did a giant survey of sixteen hundred kids and sixteen hundred adults in the States here, and we ask the kids, what are you learning anything new? Just for fun, you know, not for school, just on your own, And the answers were just outrageously charming. I'm learning about fuses, I'm braiding hair, I'm studying gangsters. I learned that my sister has a boyfriend. There are just all these interesting things that once they were bored, you don't have to cure their boredom all the time, because they will migrate to something that interests them. And when they do, that's edu. You know, if they're studying everything about cars or everything about worms, reading up on it, watching videos, maybe doing a podcast or whatever. Fake thing on it. That's education. So everybody who's worried about their kids filling their time, and everybody who's worried about are their kids getting enough education, When they find something that turns them on and they pursue it, that's that's focused. That's research. That's frustration tolerance because you've got to learn how to do it better and better and better. And that's education. So don't be so concerned about the schooling maybe going down a little bit.

That, Imagine that. You know. The thing is that when they're home and when you're home, there's just too many hours in the day to entertain or educate them yourself the whole time. So I'd say, you know, we just did a giant survey of sixteen hundred kids and sixteen hundred adults in the States here, and we ask the kids, what are you learning anything new? Just for fun, you know, not for school, just on your own, And the answers were just outrageously charming. I'm learning about fuses, I'm braiding hair, I'm studying gangsters. I learned that my sister has a boyfriend. There are just all these interesting things that once they were bored, you don't have to cure their boredom all the time, because they will migrate to something that interests them. And when they do, that's edu. You know, if they're studying everything about cars or everything about worms, reading up on it, watching videos, maybe doing a podcast or whatever. Fake thing on it. That's education. So everybody who's worried about their kids filling their time, and everybody who's worried about are their kids getting enough education, When they find something that turns them on and they pursue it, that's that's focused. That's research. That's frustration tolerance because you've got to learn how to do it better and better and better. And that's education. So don't be so concerned about the schooling maybe going down a little bit.

Yeah, so good, Okay, thank you. So five questions to wrap up. Every single person on this podcast gets the five questions and the first.

Yeah, so good, Okay, thank you. So five questions to wrap up. Every single person on this podcast gets the five questions and the first.

One technical difficulties.

One technical difficulties.

Repid fire really easy. If we ask your two boys now age twenty two and twenty four, what their favorite thing to do with you is, what would they say?

Repid fire really easy. If we ask your two boys now age twenty two and twenty four, what their favorite thing to do with you is, what would they say?

Lick the ball? You know, I make a lot of brownies. They still fight over who gets.

Lick the ball? You know, I make a lot of brownies. They still fight over who gets.

The ball when they're around the brownies and the beta have the same issue. When I go back to mom and dads as well, what's been your trickiest parenting moment?

The ball when they're around the brownies and the beta have the same issue. When I go back to mom and dads as well, what's been your trickiest parenting moment?

Every parenting moment? Can I just go with that? You know everything about the car. We discussed this before. Do you have to drive in the rain? I literally didn't want my son, the twenty two year old, to drive back up to college and the rain. I was overruled, and I'm really glad I was overruled by husband and son saying are you kidding? Aren't you the three range mom? That always works.