That when we push down our pain and we don't process it, we also push down our joy.

That when we push down our pain and we don't process it, we also push down our joy.

Today we have doctor Judith Joseph.

Today we have doctor Judith Joseph.

She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful life.

She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful life.

Trauma and depression have that core belief that you're not worthy.

Trauma and depression have that core belief that you're not worthy.

People who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were just dancing and singing, what happened to that person? No, I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no idea that person was suffering.

People who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were just dancing and singing, what happened to that person? No, I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no idea that person was suffering.

So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go, you know, there's a term called annaedonia where you may be doing things that you used to love, but now you're just going through the motions, but when you go home, you're not really happy.

So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go, you know, there's a term called annaedonia where you may be doing things that you used to love, but now you're just going through the motions, but when you go home, you're not really happy.

Trying to really understand your emotions also comes with trying to create a better vocabulary for it.

Trying to really understand your emotions also comes with trying to create a better vocabulary for it.

If you can pinpoint how you feel you're less anxious about it, you know what to do about that feeling.

If you can pinpoint how you feel you're less anxious about it, you know what to do about that feeling.

I'm RADI w Kiah and on my podcast, A Really Good cris we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together.

I'm RADI w Kiah and on my podcast, A Really Good cris we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together.

Hi, everyone, welcome back.

Hi, everyone, welcome back.

To this week's episode of A Really Good Cry. Today we have doctor Judith Joseph. She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful lives. Her new book, High Functioning, Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy is so insightful and such a practical guide for those who look fine on the outside but aren't fine on the inside. Doctor Judith, thank you so much.

To this week's episode of A Really Good Cry. Today we have doctor Judith Joseph. She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful lives. Her new book, High Functioning, Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy is so insightful and such a practical guide for those who look fine on the outside but aren't fine on the inside. Doctor Judith, thank you so much.

For being here.

For being here.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

I'm very excited to go through this book with you. I read it from top to bottom and I found it so fascinating. So thank you for the work that you're doing and I can't wait to dive into it. I would love if you could just explain the premise of the book and what led you to writing it.

I'm very excited to go through this book with you. I read it from top to bottom and I found it so fascinating. So thank you for the work that you're doing and I can't wait to dive into it. I would love if you could just explain the premise of the book and what led you to writing it.

Clinical depression, as most people know it is when people have these symptoms such as low concentration, poor sleep, not feeling hungry, or changes an appetite, changes in your mood so like feeling sad, and also something called anhedonium, which is a lack of interest and pleasure in things that once really lit you up and brought you joy. However, using the DSM five, which is the bible of psychiatry that I use in my research and my private practice every day, under that if you have these symptoms of depression but you still are functioning or you're not in like significant distress, you technically don't have clinical depression. But what I was seeing after twenty twenty was a lot of people coming in having these symptoms of depression but overfunctioning, meaning they were like showing up. There were the rocks. They were overperforming, and that was their way of dealing with their depression. But there was no place for them in this bible of psychiatry. So that led me to think, Okay, I wonder how many people out there are experiencing this, and there was a real need to study it. Most of my colleagues were saying, oh, high functioning depression, that's not real. You know, clinical regular depression that more important. I thought, well, if we're only waiting for people to break down to intervene, then we're just like missing the boat. Yeah, why don't we prevent this from happening? And that led me to conduct the first ever per reviewed study in the world on high functioning depression that was published, and I've had fascinating findings and I just wanted to share that with the world.

Clinical depression, as most people know it is when people have these symptoms such as low concentration, poor sleep, not feeling hungry, or changes an appetite, changes in your mood so like feeling sad, and also something called anhedonium, which is a lack of interest and pleasure in things that once really lit you up and brought you joy. However, using the DSM five, which is the bible of psychiatry that I use in my research and my private practice every day, under that if you have these symptoms of depression but you still are functioning or you're not in like significant distress, you technically don't have clinical depression. But what I was seeing after twenty twenty was a lot of people coming in having these symptoms of depression but overfunctioning, meaning they were like showing up. There were the rocks. They were overperforming, and that was their way of dealing with their depression. But there was no place for them in this bible of psychiatry. So that led me to think, Okay, I wonder how many people out there are experiencing this, and there was a real need to study it. Most of my colleagues were saying, oh, high functioning depression, that's not real. You know, clinical regular depression that more important. I thought, well, if we're only waiting for people to break down to intervene, then we're just like missing the boat. Yeah, why don't we prevent this from happening? And that led me to conduct the first ever per reviewed study in the world on high functioning depression that was published, and I've had fascinating findings and I just wanted to share that with the world.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

I actually had somebody on that was sharing about high functioning codependency recently, and I think people can really relate to the idea of showing up even more and trying to busy yourself when you are feeling certain feelings. And when you think of depression, you know, my mind is don't want to wake up in the morning, don't want to see anyone. You know, the way that you imagine someone who is depressive to be would be in the stereotypical way. But you know, when I've heard about people committing suicide or the shocks that you have of people, You're like, wait, they didn't look depressed at all. They were showing up to work, they were dancing, they were happy, they were laughing. And so when I read the book, I was like, I feel like there's probably more people out there with high functioning depression then there are people who are actually showing up in the traditional way that you see depression.

I actually had somebody on that was sharing about high functioning codependency recently, and I think people can really relate to the idea of showing up even more and trying to busy yourself when you are feeling certain feelings. And when you think of depression, you know, my mind is don't want to wake up in the morning, don't want to see anyone. You know, the way that you imagine someone who is depressive to be would be in the stereotypical way. But you know, when I've heard about people committing suicide or the shocks that you have of people, You're like, wait, they didn't look depressed at all. They were showing up to work, they were dancing, they were happy, they were laughing. And so when I read the book, I was like, I feel like there's probably more people out there with high functioning depression then there are people who are actually showing up in the traditional way that you see depression.

Being Yeah, I think you're right. Think about the queue in line. If you think about people breaking down and then people lead having these symptoms but overfunctioning and showing up, it makes sense that there would be more people in the queue, right, And spot on with busying yourself. One of the findings in my study was a high correlation with trauma, And in my trauma research, when people want to avoid processing pain, what do they do. They busy themselves. They distract themselves. So the classic avoidance you see in PTSD is not wanting to be around the situations, the people, the places that trigger you. But another more atypical presentation is busying yourself to avoid the things that you're trying to not deal with. But the problem with that is that when we pushed our pain and we don't process it, we also push down our joy and that leads to something called anne hardonia, which is a lack of joy and pleasure and things that once lit us up.

Being Yeah, I think you're right. Think about the queue in line. If you think about people breaking down and then people lead having these symptoms but overfunctioning and showing up, it makes sense that there would be more people in the queue, right, And spot on with busying yourself. One of the findings in my study was a high correlation with trauma, And in my trauma research, when people want to avoid processing pain, what do they do. They busy themselves. They distract themselves. So the classic avoidance you see in PTSD is not wanting to be around the situations, the people, the places that trigger you. But another more atypical presentation is busying yourself to avoid the things that you're trying to not deal with. But the problem with that is that when we pushed our pain and we don't process it, we also push down our joy and that leads to something called anne hardonia, which is a lack of joy and pleasure and things that once lit us up.

So you said that when we push down our pain, we also push down our joy. Yes, how did the two correlate? I'm intrigued.

So you said that when we push down our pain, we also push down our joy. Yes, how did the two correlate? I'm intrigued.

When you're avoiding feeling something, Yeah, you don't want to feel, you avoid and you push you like on an unconscious level or even conscious, you just don't want to feel at all, so you busy yourself. But when you distract yourself from feeling at.

When you're avoiding feeling something, Yeah, you don't want to feel, you avoid and you push you like on an unconscious level or even conscious, you just don't want to feel at all, so you busy yourself. But when you distract yourself from feeling at.

All, yes, then you construct stuff from all feeling.

All, yes, then you construct stuff from all feeling.

Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, it's almost like you feel this numbness. And I often hear people describe depression or even when I've been in long periods where I felt sad for there's a feeling of numbness that you end up going through because you don't want to feel the pain. And then also if you don't want to feel one for emotion, it kind of locks you off from.

Yeah, it's almost like you feel this numbness. And I often hear people describe depression or even when I've been in long periods where I felt sad for there's a feeling of numbness that you end up going through because you don't want to feel the pain. And then also if you don't want to feel one for emotion, it kind of locks you off from.

Everything else it does.

Everything else it does.

What would you say is the difference for someone you know trying to understand whether they're just sad or whether they're depressed, Like, how do you differentiate between the two?

What would you say is the difference for someone you know trying to understand whether they're just sad or whether they're depressed, Like, how do you differentiate between the two?

Sadness is an typical human experience, but depression may feel very heavy, It may feel as if you can't get out of the fog. And the clinical depression it has specific symptoms, you know, the one that we treat in the DSM FIB of the Bible psychiatry, all of these this plethora of symptoms. To have clinical depression, you have to meet criteria for at least two weeks or more of all of these different symptoms, and they have to lead you to have a lack of functioning or a significant distress. What I'm finding with high functioning depression is that you have people who have all these symptoms of depression, but they're not breaking down. They're overfunctioning. So there's no place for them in the diagnostic manual. There's no place for these people who are showing up, who are the rocks? And I thought, well, why are we waiting for them to break down? Why don't we intervene before they break down? And there's this renaissance in like physical health, with longevity science. You hear a lot of people saying, you know, let's catch heart disease before it happens, let's catch ossioporosis, let's use HRT to prevent all these issues in women, you know, in terms of looking at the perimenopause and menopause, but there's nothing like that for mental health. And I want to change that. I want us to intervene before people break down, before their bodies give, before they develop unhealthy ways of soothing with their pain like substances and overuse of technology and so forth.

Sadness is an typical human experience, but depression may feel very heavy, It may feel as if you can't get out of the fog. And the clinical depression it has specific symptoms, you know, the one that we treat in the DSM FIB of the Bible psychiatry, all of these this plethora of symptoms. To have clinical depression, you have to meet criteria for at least two weeks or more of all of these different symptoms, and they have to lead you to have a lack of functioning or a significant distress. What I'm finding with high functioning depression is that you have people who have all these symptoms of depression, but they're not breaking down. They're overfunctioning. So there's no place for them in the diagnostic manual. There's no place for these people who are showing up, who are the rocks? And I thought, well, why are we waiting for them to break down? Why don't we intervene before they break down? And there's this renaissance in like physical health, with longevity science. You hear a lot of people saying, you know, let's catch heart disease before it happens, let's catch ossioporosis, let's use HRT to prevent all these issues in women, you know, in terms of looking at the perimenopause and menopause, but there's nothing like that for mental health. And I want to change that. I want us to intervene before people break down, before their bodies give, before they develop unhealthy ways of soothing with their pain like substances and overuse of technology and so forth.

What would you say are some self reflective questions that people can ask themselves to really assess whether they, you know, are going towards that or are actually in a depressive or high functioning depressive state.

What would you say are some self reflective questions that people can ask themselves to really assess whether they, you know, are going towards that or are actually in a depressive or high functioning depressive state.

I think it's important to number one validate. So in my book, I talk about the five v's, and the reason that I use five is because most people have five fingers. Most of us do, and so if you imagine that, you know, happiness and joy are built into our DNA as humans, right, we all have dopamine in our brains. We just forgot how to access joys. So I like to use the hand because I always say, using one of these five v's that are evidence based, joy is within reach. You just have to relearn how to access your joy. Because when you think about babies, and I treat small children when they go around on the floor and they're exploring the world as toddlers, they're tasting things, they're feeling, they're laughing. They don't need much to access joy. But as we get older, as we go through trauma, as we get distracted, as things happen to us, we lose touch of that ability to access joy easily. So the five's help and the first is validation. And what does that mean. It means acknowledging how you feel, no matter if it's perceived positive or perceived negative emotion. Accept it and it's important. And it sounds cheesy, but if we don't acknowledge the pain, we can't acknowledge the joy. And as humans, we need to know what's happening, and we don't know how we feel when things are uncertain. We're anxious, you know, we don't feel present, we feel frustrated, we feel lost. So the first step is really validation, and.

I think it's important to number one validate. So in my book, I talk about the five v's, and the reason that I use five is because most people have five fingers. Most of us do, and so if you imagine that, you know, happiness and joy are built into our DNA as humans, right, we all have dopamine in our brains. We just forgot how to access joys. So I like to use the hand because I always say, using one of these five v's that are evidence based, joy is within reach. You just have to relearn how to access your joy. Because when you think about babies, and I treat small children when they go around on the floor and they're exploring the world as toddlers, they're tasting things, they're feeling, they're laughing. They don't need much to access joy. But as we get older, as we go through trauma, as we get distracted, as things happen to us, we lose touch of that ability to access joy easily. So the five's help and the first is validation. And what does that mean. It means acknowledging how you feel, no matter if it's perceived positive or perceived negative emotion. Accept it and it's important. And it sounds cheesy, but if we don't acknowledge the pain, we can't acknowledge the joy. And as humans, we need to know what's happening, and we don't know how we feel when things are uncertain. We're anxious, you know, we don't feel present, we feel frustrated, we feel lost. So the first step is really validation, and.

Do you want to go through the other vias?

Do you want to go through the other vias?

Yes. The second is venting. So if you imagine, like venting is a physics term where air is trapped and then when you release that and the pressure goes down. So when we express how we feel, then that allows that, you know. That's why when you go to therapy sometimes you just you feel good. But not everyone is a verbal you know, expressor and I work with a lot of neurodiversion clients and so not everyone feels that it's easy to verbally express. So there are other ways. With the artists that I work with, they dance, they sing, they paint. Others like to write in journals to express. Others cry. I know your podcast, you know the day and that crying is good for you, But there's science behind that. When you cry, you really let out these hormones that and you feel better. That's why we have tear dys not just to moisten our eyes so that they stay functioning, but also so that we can release you know, that angst at times, that pain, so venting is very important. And then the third is the values. And I often say that values are thing that are priceless, right, not price tag and I like my fancy things, but at the end of the day, when I'm on my death bed, I'm not going to be like I want, you know, right, I usually say proud of it, but yeah, like you know, the things that bring you purpose and meaning in life, like your family, your faith, the causes that you believe in, things like nature. You know, these are like priceless, so tap into that as much as you daily.

Yes. The second is venting. So if you imagine, like venting is a physics term where air is trapped and then when you release that and the pressure goes down. So when we express how we feel, then that allows that, you know. That's why when you go to therapy sometimes you just you feel good. But not everyone is a verbal you know, expressor and I work with a lot of neurodiversion clients and so not everyone feels that it's easy to verbally express. So there are other ways. With the artists that I work with, they dance, they sing, they paint. Others like to write in journals to express. Others cry. I know your podcast, you know the day and that crying is good for you, But there's science behind that. When you cry, you really let out these hormones that and you feel better. That's why we have tear dys not just to moisten our eyes so that they stay functioning, but also so that we can release you know, that angst at times, that pain, so venting is very important. And then the third is the values. And I often say that values are thing that are priceless, right, not price tag and I like my fancy things, but at the end of the day, when I'm on my death bed, I'm not going to be like I want, you know, right, I usually say proud of it, but yeah, like you know, the things that bring you purpose and meaning in life, like your family, your faith, the causes that you believe in, things like nature. You know, these are like priceless, so tap into that as much as you daily.

Yeah, yeah, it was so interesting recently I was talking to a friend and we were talking about the fact that he feels like people don't value him, and they said, you know what I reflected on, and I was like, unless you have values, people don't know how to value you. And you know, growing up, I had specific things that I was really attached to. I was like, I love animals, and that's something I really value. I know, I don't want to drink alcohol, so I know that that's one of my values. And so as I grew up, these values actually ended up also forming how people saw me, and they saw it when I valued something, it created a sense of value in their mind of me. But if you don't find the values that you have and you don't know them, it's not only difficult for you to value yourself, it actually reflects on how other people also value you. And so it's really I really appreciated that when I read that in your book, because I was really thinking about it this week, and I was like, Yeah, if you don't have values, then other people also don't know how to value you because they don't see that through you.

Yeah, yeah, it was so interesting recently I was talking to a friend and we were talking about the fact that he feels like people don't value him, and they said, you know what I reflected on, and I was like, unless you have values, people don't know how to value you. And you know, growing up, I had specific things that I was really attached to. I was like, I love animals, and that's something I really value. I know, I don't want to drink alcohol, so I know that that's one of my values. And so as I grew up, these values actually ended up also forming how people saw me, and they saw it when I valued something, it created a sense of value in their mind of me. But if you don't find the values that you have and you don't know them, it's not only difficult for you to value yourself, it actually reflects on how other people also value you. And so it's really I really appreciated that when I read that in your book, because I was really thinking about it this week, and I was like, Yeah, if you don't have values, then other people also don't know how to value you because they don't see that through you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I talk about with my own personal jone journey I would grew up in a pastor's home a spiritual home, yes, and we would often help the community. We'd go out every and we used to complain about it as kids, but now I'm so grateful. But every weekend we spent so much time helping people in the community, be it like the YNCA or like a retirement home. You know, I went into medicine to help people, but then, you know, the accolades got in the way, going to Ivy League institutions, getting another degree, opening a lab, getting the right studies, being competitive. And then after a while, I found myself feeling very empty and lost interesting and I had to tap back into well, what fed me, you know, spiritually, and it was being connected to people. I'm one of four siblings. I like to be in a team, even my team and my lab. I was losing sight of feeling connected because I was so like chasing the clout. But then when I tapped into okay, what's really important, you know, like feeling connected to my community, that grounded me. And at the time, I was going through a divorce and I realized, you know, I was changed. I was chasing these things that I'm not going to be on my deathbed thinking, oh, I wish I got a JD on top of the MDMBA. Right, I'm going to be like I wish I spent more time helping people and being connected with people, right, And that just shifted my approach. You know, I had to tap into values as well. And I'm a psychiatrist, So if it doesn't come naturally to me, imagine how many people out there just meet that reminder. So I have all these tools in my book just to help people find their way back to, you know, the values based on what I've done in my clinical practice over the years. Because a lot of people forget their past because of trauma. They don't realize that memories get buried. So people say, well, I don't remember what it was like that, I don't remember what I valued as a kid. And then you trace back and you realize there was a trauma. Maybe it was their own parents divorce, maybe there was a loss, maybe something bad happened to them, you know, in school or with their friend group, and they just don't remember what it was like to be lit up by something that brought them purpose. So there are all these tools in that book to really help people find their values again.

Well, I talk about with my own personal jone journey I would grew up in a pastor's home a spiritual home, yes, and we would often help the community. We'd go out every and we used to complain about it as kids, but now I'm so grateful. But every weekend we spent so much time helping people in the community, be it like the YNCA or like a retirement home. You know, I went into medicine to help people, but then, you know, the accolades got in the way, going to Ivy League institutions, getting another degree, opening a lab, getting the right studies, being competitive. And then after a while, I found myself feeling very empty and lost interesting and I had to tap back into well, what fed me, you know, spiritually, and it was being connected to people. I'm one of four siblings. I like to be in a team, even my team and my lab. I was losing sight of feeling connected because I was so like chasing the clout. But then when I tapped into okay, what's really important, you know, like feeling connected to my community, that grounded me. And at the time, I was going through a divorce and I realized, you know, I was changed. I was chasing these things that I'm not going to be on my deathbed thinking, oh, I wish I got a JD on top of the MDMBA. Right, I'm going to be like I wish I spent more time helping people and being connected with people, right, And that just shifted my approach. You know, I had to tap into values as well. And I'm a psychiatrist, So if it doesn't come naturally to me, imagine how many people out there just meet that reminder. So I have all these tools in my book just to help people find their way back to, you know, the values based on what I've done in my clinical practice over the years. Because a lot of people forget their past because of trauma. They don't realize that memories get buried. So people say, well, I don't remember what it was like that, I don't remember what I valued as a kid. And then you trace back and you realize there was a trauma. Maybe it was their own parents divorce, maybe there was a loss, maybe something bad happened to them, you know, in school or with their friend group, and they just don't remember what it was like to be lit up by something that brought them purpose. So there are all these tools in that book to really help people find their values again.

It's so interesting isn't it where no matter what stage of life you're in, Like, even for you, you know the theory, it's like doctors, even if they're treating patients for their health, if they've got heart disease or whatever, it's like, theoretically, we know what's right, and so for you, theoretically you knew what you should be doing or needed to be happy. But there's one thing about theory and then there's another part to its practice.

It's so interesting isn't it where no matter what stage of life you're in, Like, even for you, you know the theory, it's like doctors, even if they're treating patients for their health, if they've got heart disease or whatever, it's like, theoretically, we know what's right, and so for you, theoretically you knew what you should be doing or needed to be happy. But there's one thing about theory and then there's another part to its practice.

It just find it so fascinating that in.

It just find it so fascinating that in.

Every stage of life, whether it's like celebrities wanting to get more and more in life, whether it's you as a doctor who's got all these incredible degrees and being able to help people so much, or even if I think of myself, it's like, okay, cool, I get to help people with their health or through they're cooking. But when you attached to the wrong things, it completely takes away the benefits you think you're going to get. Like when you attached to the wrong things, nothing feels valuable. So yeah, I guess connecting to your values is such a core principle to actually feel content and satisfied in life.

Every stage of life, whether it's like celebrities wanting to get more and more in life, whether it's you as a doctor who's got all these incredible degrees and being able to help people so much, or even if I think of myself, it's like, okay, cool, I get to help people with their health or through they're cooking. But when you attached to the wrong things, it completely takes away the benefits you think you're going to get. Like when you attached to the wrong things, nothing feels valuable. So yeah, I guess connecting to your values is such a core principle to actually feel content and satisfied in life.

I love your use of the word attached because when we think of attached, we think of attachment to others. Yes, but you're absolutely right. You can attach to the wrong value set and you think that you're doing the right thing because everyone else told you, But you're not being authentic to yourself, right, And so really examining what gives I use these very primitive terms full and fed, oh yeah, because some people don't know, you know, they've again pushed around feelings. So I said, well, think about feeling full and fed and whole and satisfied.

I love your use of the word attached because when we think of attached, we think of attachment to others. Yes, but you're absolutely right. You can attach to the wrong value set and you think that you're doing the right thing because everyone else told you, But you're not being authentic to yourself, right, And so really examining what gives I use these very primitive terms full and fed, oh yeah, because some people don't know, you know, they've again pushed around feelings. So I said, well, think about feeling full and fed and whole and satisfied.

It's going to ask what do you think are ways if people don't feel like they understand their values, are their questions they can ask themselves? Or how do you get to the point of understanding what your values truly are?

It's going to ask what do you think are ways if people don't feel like they understand their values, are their questions they can ask themselves? Or how do you get to the point of understanding what your values truly are?

I have a ton of tools that I use because you know, you said that doctors don't follow their own advice. Doctors are some of the most depressed people. You know, there's high rates of suicide within residents, and doctors tend to have poor health because they're so busy looking after their patients that they don't look after themselves. And they're the people that are at least likely to catch high functioning depression because it's like looking in the mirror, right, because they're overfunctioning, overperforming, they're not dealing with their own pain, so they're like, oh, come back when you're broken, because that's what they're used to. They identify as being healers, not preventors. Right. But the ways that I ask people to tap into their values is sometimes we'll go through a trip down memory lane and we'll go to a memory that was the last memory that they can retrieve where they're actually feeling full and fed, and then we try to figure out what happened at that time or if they really can't access the memory because of trauma and the brain pushed it down. I have other exercises where I say, well, if you had one person that you could have dinner with, anyone, you know, they may say, oh, Jimi Hendrix, right, And it's like, oh, I wonder why because the person is not an artist, But why why Jimmy Hendrix? Well, because you know he was doing things for a black man at that time that were so cutting edge. And then you realize, oh, so you're into innovation, so is that something that used to value? And then the person goes, oh, yeah, you know, when I was younger, I used to tinker a lot. I don't do that anymore. So with that individual, I'll say, okay, well, let's slowly expose you to tinkering again, experimenting again. Maybe the first day you look up online robotics, right, and then the second day you look up a class, and maybe the next week you walk by the class you peek in, or maybe you don't. Maybe the following week you look at a video online, right, and you take baby steps back to things that the person valued. Another example I have is someone who you know was in a city and she was feeling a hedonic and it turned out that one of her core memories was built in a time when her family was together, and she didn't remember. She valued she was in a busy, big city, important position. But then we realized that she worked, you know, with her family, should go camping a lot, and she didn't have access to nature. So we had to work all way back into nature and she felt full and fed. Again. It wasn't like she was cured, but at least the little steps of it correct. Yeah.

I have a ton of tools that I use because you know, you said that doctors don't follow their own advice. Doctors are some of the most depressed people. You know, there's high rates of suicide within residents, and doctors tend to have poor health because they're so busy looking after their patients that they don't look after themselves. And they're the people that are at least likely to catch high functioning depression because it's like looking in the mirror, right, because they're overfunctioning, overperforming, they're not dealing with their own pain, so they're like, oh, come back when you're broken, because that's what they're used to. They identify as being healers, not preventors. Right. But the ways that I ask people to tap into their values is sometimes we'll go through a trip down memory lane and we'll go to a memory that was the last memory that they can retrieve where they're actually feeling full and fed, and then we try to figure out what happened at that time or if they really can't access the memory because of trauma and the brain pushed it down. I have other exercises where I say, well, if you had one person that you could have dinner with, anyone, you know, they may say, oh, Jimi Hendrix, right, And it's like, oh, I wonder why because the person is not an artist, But why why Jimmy Hendrix? Well, because you know he was doing things for a black man at that time that were so cutting edge. And then you realize, oh, so you're into innovation, so is that something that used to value? And then the person goes, oh, yeah, you know, when I was younger, I used to tinker a lot. I don't do that anymore. So with that individual, I'll say, okay, well, let's slowly expose you to tinkering again, experimenting again. Maybe the first day you look up online robotics, right, and then the second day you look up a class, and maybe the next week you walk by the class you peek in, or maybe you don't. Maybe the following week you look at a video online, right, and you take baby steps back to things that the person valued. Another example I have is someone who you know was in a city and she was feeling a hedonic and it turned out that one of her core memories was built in a time when her family was together, and she didn't remember. She valued she was in a busy, big city, important position. But then we realized that she worked, you know, with her family, should go camping a lot, and she didn't have access to nature. So we had to work all way back into nature and she felt full and fed. Again. It wasn't like she was cured, but at least the little steps of it correct. Yeah.

Wow, okay, so we've got validation values. There was on venting validation venting values, and then there's two movies and right.

Wow, okay, so we've got validation values. There was on venting validation venting values, and then there's two movies and right.

There's vitals. I always say to my daughter every night, you know, there's only one you. There will only ever be one you. You are so special. And I tell my patients this too, And it's such a game changer for people who feel lost, right because many people are like, why am I here? Well, think about the the chances of the universe making it so that you exist, because there will only ever be one you, and that sense of awe is so important. So what do you have to do since there's only one you? You got to take care of your body. Yes, you have a body and brain. You'll only get one you know. Yeah, we haven't figured out the science. One day will, but right now we have it. So take care of your body and brain. And within the vital section. I have the traditional things you know that a doctor will tell you, like sleep, movement, you know, eating nutritious foods that feed your brain and body. But also there are things that we need to take care of our body. In terms of you know, technology, We don't know the long term effects of technology exposure on the adult brain. We know a lot about children, so you know, set healthy boundaries with your work with technology. And also the number one predictor of longevity is relationships, So don't discount the quality of relationship relationships. A toxic person will drain your life force, you know, So sunvitals. There's a lot, right, I don't want people to get overwhelmed, but just pick one or two. And then the fifth is vision because when we're so busy accomplishing and checking off the boxes, we're onto the next. Right, I'm guilty of this as well. But celebrate your wins. So like for you, for example, after this podcast, celebrating a wind can be having a a step of tea or just like observing nature and saying, wow, I did that. You know that was hard, Like I interviewed guests and I listened and I validated, and you know I had to take it in and you know, I should really reward myself for that, right, So celebrating the winds in today because tomorrow is not promised. And then you know, planning join the future because that keeps you moving forward instead of getting stuck in the past.

There's vitals. I always say to my daughter every night, you know, there's only one you. There will only ever be one you. You are so special. And I tell my patients this too, And it's such a game changer for people who feel lost, right because many people are like, why am I here? Well, think about the the chances of the universe making it so that you exist, because there will only ever be one you, and that sense of awe is so important. So what do you have to do since there's only one you? You got to take care of your body. Yes, you have a body and brain. You'll only get one you know. Yeah, we haven't figured out the science. One day will, but right now we have it. So take care of your body and brain. And within the vital section. I have the traditional things you know that a doctor will tell you, like sleep, movement, you know, eating nutritious foods that feed your brain and body. But also there are things that we need to take care of our body. In terms of you know, technology, We don't know the long term effects of technology exposure on the adult brain. We know a lot about children, so you know, set healthy boundaries with your work with technology. And also the number one predictor of longevity is relationships, So don't discount the quality of relationship relationships. A toxic person will drain your life force, you know, So sunvitals. There's a lot, right, I don't want people to get overwhelmed, but just pick one or two. And then the fifth is vision because when we're so busy accomplishing and checking off the boxes, we're onto the next. Right, I'm guilty of this as well. But celebrate your wins. So like for you, for example, after this podcast, celebrating a wind can be having a a step of tea or just like observing nature and saying, wow, I did that. You know that was hard, Like I interviewed guests and I listened and I validated, and you know I had to take it in and you know, I should really reward myself for that, right, So celebrating the winds in today because tomorrow is not promised. And then you know, planning join the future because that keeps you moving forward instead of getting stuck in the past.

Well, that's nice, planning joy in the future. That's so true.

Well, that's nice, planning joy in the future. That's so true.

And I think people get so used to having such monotonous days where they feel like every single day is the same, but actually if you observe, so many different things can happen in the day that you're not even realizing because you are stuck in that robotic behavior. So I imagine celebrating in different ways every single day, even if it is you doing the same thing every day. There's so much satisfaction and power that comes with consistency, and that should also be rewarded. It's like, Wow, you showed up to work seven days a day, or like you showed up to work for the past twenty years without taking awready, Like that's there's so many things to be celebrated that people take f are granted in themselves, And I think having that mood is so important because otherwise you also don't appreciate the things that you're doing in your own life or yourself in that way.

And I think people get so used to having such monotonous days where they feel like every single day is the same, but actually if you observe, so many different things can happen in the day that you're not even realizing because you are stuck in that robotic behavior. So I imagine celebrating in different ways every single day, even if it is you doing the same thing every day. There's so much satisfaction and power that comes with consistency, and that should also be rewarded. It's like, Wow, you showed up to work seven days a day, or like you showed up to work for the past twenty years without taking awready, Like that's there's so many things to be celebrated that people take f are granted in themselves, And I think having that mood is so important because otherwise you also don't appreciate the things that you're doing in your own life or yourself in that way.

Yeah, I mean today it was a very busy day for me. LA is hard to get around, it is, But I know that I'm going to get a massage when I get to the airport and I'm going to treat myself. But it doesn't have to be monetary, right, It could be as small as getting your kid to school on time. Like that's a struggle for me too, exactly right, So after I get my daughter to school on time, you know, I'm like, wow, that was hard. I'm going to sit in my living room and enjoy my coffee and just savor it instead of you know, jumping it and then leaving and going to work. Right, So it could be the simple things. Yeah, it doesn't have to be grand.

Yeah, I mean today it was a very busy day for me. LA is hard to get around, it is, But I know that I'm going to get a massage when I get to the airport and I'm going to treat myself. But it doesn't have to be monetary, right, It could be as small as getting your kid to school on time. Like that's a struggle for me too, exactly right, So after I get my daughter to school on time, you know, I'm like, wow, that was hard. I'm going to sit in my living room and enjoy my coffee and just savor it instead of you know, jumping it and then leaving and going to work. Right, So it could be the simple things. Yeah, it doesn't have to be grand.

So sure, what are some of the lesser known signs of depression that peeping often overlook.

So sure, what are some of the lesser known signs of depression that peeping often overlook.

Anna Donia is a term that's been in the medical literature since the eighteen hundred.

Anna Donia is a term that's been in the medical literature since the eighteen hundred.

Well, yeah, it was the first time I actually heard of it when I read your work.

Well, yeah, it was the first time I actually heard of it when I read your work.

You know. What's surprising is that I went to a therapy conference recently and I asked these tops I call just in the world and therapists what anatonia was, and they were like, I don't remember, you know, And I was like, wow. So if therapists don't know to ask you about it, then this is a symptom that's being overlooked. And I think it's such a common experience to feel.

You know. What's surprising is that I went to a therapy conference recently and I asked these tops I call just in the world and therapists what anatonia was, and they were like, I don't remember, you know, And I was like, wow. So if therapists don't know to ask you about it, then this is a symptom that's being overlooked. And I think it's such a common experience to feel.

Like h or.

Like h or.

Checked out, not really feeling much because we are so muted in terms of accessing joy these days. There's so many distractions, right, We're constantly on the phone. We're getting our dogmine hits. And what happens is that after a while, your brain gets so accustomed to all these hits that you don't access joy in more, you know, stimulating ways, such as through connection with others, through being outside, you know, through eating food and not looking at a screen, something as simple as that. Some of us can't even go to the bathroom without looking at a.

Checked out, not really feeling much because we are so muted in terms of accessing joy these days. There's so many distractions, right, We're constantly on the phone. We're getting our dogmine hits. And what happens is that after a while, your brain gets so accustomed to all these hits that you don't access joy in more, you know, stimulating ways, such as through connection with others, through being outside, you know, through eating food and not looking at a screen, something as simple as that. Some of us can't even go to the bathroom without looking at a.

Screen, you know. Yes, I've been.

Screen, you know. Yes, I've been.

I can definitely put my hand up to that. I'm like, see my phone outside, Why am I teaking it with me?

I can definitely put my hand up to that. I'm like, see my phone outside, Why am I teaking it with me?

All so gross? Right?

All so gross? Right?

Yeah, but yeah, these are simple things like when you're with your pet, if you're like on your phone your pet is like not getting that full experience, you know.

Yeah, but yeah, these are simple things like when you're with your pet, if you're like on your phone your pet is like not getting that full experience, you know.

Having that full cycle of connection, like the exchange that actually fuels both both people in that interaction.

Having that full cycle of connection, like the exchange that actually fuels both both people in that interaction.

Yeah, And I often say that, like anadonia is contagious if you're if there's a leader, and we've all had bosses that you know, they weren't happy and then we all weren't happy as a result, right, the same way anadonia is contagious, Joy is contagious. So if you can you know, rejuvenate your organization with a bit of joy, you'll see people coming in feeling more energized, not just about work, but about seeing each other. And that's why it's important. It's not it's a very sneaky symptom. You know. I say that depression is like twin sisters. You know, they're they're fraternal, they're not identical on the outside. So one is, you know, weepy and crying and in bed, and the other sister is just muted. Right, But who gets the attention the one who's weepy, the one who's muted. At least they're not in crisis. But that's a mistake we're making in the healthcare industry, is that we're not really addressing you know, things like anaidonia, which are markers for other things like depression, trauma, substance use, schizophrenia. We have to address the lack of joy, not just be about like eradicating depression, but cultivating joy.

Yeah, And I often say that, like anadonia is contagious if you're if there's a leader, and we've all had bosses that you know, they weren't happy and then we all weren't happy as a result, right, the same way anadonia is contagious, Joy is contagious. So if you can you know, rejuvenate your organization with a bit of joy, you'll see people coming in feeling more energized, not just about work, but about seeing each other. And that's why it's important. It's not it's a very sneaky symptom. You know. I say that depression is like twin sisters. You know, they're they're fraternal, they're not identical on the outside. So one is, you know, weepy and crying and in bed, and the other sister is just muted. Right, But who gets the attention the one who's weepy, the one who's muted. At least they're not in crisis. But that's a mistake we're making in the healthcare industry, is that we're not really addressing you know, things like anaidonia, which are markers for other things like depression, trauma, substance use, schizophrenia. We have to address the lack of joy, not just be about like eradicating depression, but cultivating joy.

It's so interesting because I guess, on one hand, you've got the high functioning where they're allowed, they're they're present, you notice them in you know, you notice them in a room. They're very they're very noticeable. And then you've got this other this other side, which is how do you say and herdonia where actually they're just quiet and in the background, and it just shows that there's such a spectrum of depression or what symptoms you can have of depression, where we have to be so much more observant of the people around us, because you know, I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no idea that person was suffering. You know, we had a friend who passed away and had like drugs in their system.

It's so interesting because I guess, on one hand, you've got the high functioning where they're allowed, they're they're present, you notice them in you know, you notice them in a room. They're very they're very noticeable. And then you've got this other this other side, which is how do you say and herdonia where actually they're just quiet and in the background, and it just shows that there's such a spectrum of depression or what symptoms you can have of depression, where we have to be so much more observant of the people around us, because you know, I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no idea that person was suffering. You know, we had a friend who passed away and had like drugs in their system.

No one knew they were taking drugs.

No one knew they were taking drugs.

You know, people who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were just dancing and singing. What happened to that person? And so I guess a big part of it also, I was just thinking of the question of how can people who are maybe around someone who seems to be presenting with depressive symptoms, how can they help that person, Like, what can we do for that person?

You know, people who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were just dancing and singing. What happened to that person? And so I guess a big part of it also, I was just thinking of the question of how can people who are maybe around someone who seems to be presenting with depressive symptoms, how can they help that person, Like, what can we do for that person?

Well, well, I'm sorry about your friend who passed. And you know, I've heard so many stories like that where people are wearing a mask of productivitys, especially in the entertainment industry and the arts, where you can't show up to an audition and be sad because you won't get the gig right, So you're kind of stuck being happy, forced happy, performing and no one knows you're struggling. And you know what I would ask about. My goal is to really make the word antiedonia known. So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go, who doesn't seem to need your help, or who's masking a lot, I would ask about ant hodonia, you know. I would say, like, you know, there's a term called antedonia where you may be doing things that you used to love, but now you're just going through the motions. You're going just to perform, but when you go home you're not really happy, you know. I would ask them about that, you know, and help them to get back into their body and not judge them, because the other thing about people with high functioning depression is that they tend to people please, you know. I say there are three risk factors trauma, unprocessed trauma, an hondonia right, not feeling joy, and then something I called masochism, which used to be in the Bible psychiatry they took it out. Now it's known as people pleasing where you don't want to disappoint others, You bend over backwards, you perform even though you don't want to, right, So those are the hallmarks. So these are people who don't want to tell you that they're struggling. They feel guilty when they ask for help, They feel ungrateful when they slow it down. Right, let them know that you're there, no matter why, and then don't wait for them to ask. You know, if you see they're not eating, well, bring some food over. If you see that they're isolating, just sit with them. You know, if you see they're overperforming, you know they're constantly busy, allow them to slow down, say hey, we could just chill. We don't got to do this, and that. You know, when people feel seen, they change. They feel as if you know they don't have to do these things, they don't have to mask, they can show their real selves and just realize that this is likely coming from a place of trauma. And trauma in itself makes people feel shame. When people are traumatized and bad things have happened, they internalize blame. It's our way of controlling the world. And so my children, when something bad happens, they think they have magical thinking, like well, maybe if I had done my homework while Daddy would have stayed, or like you know this, Grandpa wouldn't have died, right, And that magical thinking carries into adulthood. For some with unprocessed trauma, you know, they internalize that shame. Well, maybe if I were like this, maybe if I did things differently, And then they don't ask for helps, So don't wait for them. Be there even when they don't look like they need help.

Well, well, I'm sorry about your friend who passed. And you know, I've heard so many stories like that where people are wearing a mask of productivitys, especially in the entertainment industry and the arts, where you can't show up to an audition and be sad because you won't get the gig right, So you're kind of stuck being happy, forced happy, performing and no one knows you're struggling. And you know what I would ask about. My goal is to really make the word antiedonia known. So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go, who doesn't seem to need your help, or who's masking a lot, I would ask about ant hodonia, you know. I would say, like, you know, there's a term called antedonia where you may be doing things that you used to love, but now you're just going through the motions. You're going just to perform, but when you go home you're not really happy, you know. I would ask them about that, you know, and help them to get back into their body and not judge them, because the other thing about people with high functioning depression is that they tend to people please, you know. I say there are three risk factors trauma, unprocessed trauma, an hondonia right, not feeling joy, and then something I called masochism, which used to be in the Bible psychiatry they took it out. Now it's known as people pleasing where you don't want to disappoint others, You bend over backwards, you perform even though you don't want to, right, So those are the hallmarks. So these are people who don't want to tell you that they're struggling. They feel guilty when they ask for help, They feel ungrateful when they slow it down. Right, let them know that you're there, no matter why, and then don't wait for them to ask. You know, if you see they're not eating, well, bring some food over. If you see that they're isolating, just sit with them. You know, if you see they're overperforming, you know they're constantly busy, allow them to slow down, say hey, we could just chill. We don't got to do this, and that. You know, when people feel seen, they change. They feel as if you know they don't have to do these things, they don't have to mask, they can show their real selves and just realize that this is likely coming from a place of trauma. And trauma in itself makes people feel shame. When people are traumatized and bad things have happened, they internalize blame. It's our way of controlling the world. And so my children, when something bad happens, they think they have magical thinking, like well, maybe if I had done my homework while Daddy would have stayed, or like you know this, Grandpa wouldn't have died, right, And that magical thinking carries into adulthood. For some with unprocessed trauma, you know, they internalize that shame. Well, maybe if I were like this, maybe if I did things differently, And then they don't ask for helps, So don't wait for them. Be there even when they don't look like they need help.

I actually recently watched Trevoranoa talking about this on stage. I don't know where he was, but he was saying that one of his favorite things to do with his friends because he was noticing that, you know, maybe they weren't sharing as much now. Every time he meets with his friends, they ask each other like what are you struggling with? And the fact is that question isn't asked enough, like what do you need help with right now?

I actually recently watched Trevoranoa talking about this on stage. I don't know where he was, but he was saying that one of his favorite things to do with his friends because he was noticing that, you know, maybe they weren't sharing as much now. Every time he meets with his friends, they ask each other like what are you struggling with? And the fact is that question isn't asked enough, like what do you need help with right now?

How are you feeling right now?

How are you feeling right now?

Like even the simple question of actually sitting down and I'm like, hey, how are you? But like how are you feeling right now? What are you struggling with? And I think those questions, you know, were so used to having fun with friends and hanging out with them, and kind of it can get quite surface level quite easily, and you feel like you're close because you see each other often.

Like even the simple question of actually sitting down and I'm like, hey, how are you? But like how are you feeling right now? What are you struggling with? And I think those questions, you know, were so used to having fun with friends and hanging out with them, and kind of it can get quite surface level quite easily, and you feel like you're close because you see each other often.

But are you asking the right questions? And so he said.

But are you asking the right questions? And so he said.

I can't remember exactly what he asked, but it was essentially along the lines of let's all go around the circle and say what we're struggling with, because not only does that bring us close together, we also get to understand how we can help one another, Like in this group of people that we have as friends, are we here to just have fun or are we here to actually support one another? And I thought that was really beautiful because I think it's so easy.

I can't remember exactly what he asked, but it was essentially along the lines of let's all go around the circle and say what we're struggling with, because not only does that bring us close together, we also get to understand how we can help one another, Like in this group of people that we have as friends, are we here to just have fun or are we here to actually support one another? And I thought that was really beautiful because I think it's so easy.

To avoid those conversations.

To avoid those conversations.

And you know, you show up to your friend group and a lot of the time, you know, with girls and with guys, you want to show up as like I'm doing well, my work's good, my family's good, my girlfriend's good, like everything is good. And I think you want to show up as being this version of yourself if especially if people have perceived you in that way for a long period. So when you and I think that's even harder, like when people seem like they've got it good and people have that perception almost breaking that you feel like you're breaking their identity of you and you're showing up as weak ye, And so you can continue that for such a long period until there's a breaking point. And so just asking questions to your friends, like anybody listening, when was the last time you ask some of your closest friends of what you're struggling with right now?

And you know, you show up to your friend group and a lot of the time, you know, with girls and with guys, you want to show up as like I'm doing well, my work's good, my family's good, my girlfriend's good, like everything is good. And I think you want to show up as being this version of yourself if especially if people have perceived you in that way for a long period. So when you and I think that's even harder, like when people seem like they've got it good and people have that perception almost breaking that you feel like you're breaking their identity of you and you're showing up as weak ye, And so you can continue that for such a long period until there's a breaking point. And so just asking questions to your friends, like anybody listening, when was the last time you ask some of your closest friends of what you're struggling with right now?

What can I help you with?

What can I help you with?

And I think having that regular conversation topics is so important and could probably save someone, Like I always think about that one conversation, that one smile, that one interaction, that one genuine connection, that one moment when you just sat with someone for five minutes longer, you have no idea how much it could be saving the other person.

And I think having that regular conversation topics is so important and could probably save someone, Like I always think about that one conversation, that one smile, that one interaction, that one genuine connection, that one moment when you just sat with someone for five minutes longer, you have no idea how much it could be saving the other person.

If you think about that person in your friend group, maybe they can't do that in front of a group. Maybe they have to do it privately. So for that individual, it may be a walk, right, yeah, you know, come with me on a walk and we don't have to say anything, and let's observe nature and let's just like let it flow organically like that. Sometimes people they don't want to talk at all, So it could be going to a gallery and looking at different art, right, everyone's so different, and just showing up in the way that that person can accept it so that they don't feel that added pressure, because sometimes, you know, we do things we want to help, but then we're like prying it out of the person and they're like, well, I wish I never said anything, you know, And that's where you know, therapy is just so della. You know, when you go to a therapist, you know, therapists don't pull it out of you. They they're on this process with you. So when you think about working with a friend who doesn't share, try to figure out the way that they can best communicate it that feels authentic to them so they don't feel too exposed, but just be empathic.

If you think about that person in your friend group, maybe they can't do that in front of a group. Maybe they have to do it privately. So for that individual, it may be a walk, right, yeah, you know, come with me on a walk and we don't have to say anything, and let's observe nature and let's just like let it flow organically like that. Sometimes people they don't want to talk at all, So it could be going to a gallery and looking at different art, right, everyone's so different, and just showing up in the way that that person can accept it so that they don't feel that added pressure, because sometimes, you know, we do things we want to help, but then we're like prying it out of the person and they're like, well, I wish I never said anything, you know, And that's where you know, therapy is just so della. You know, when you go to a therapist, you know, therapists don't pull it out of you. They they're on this process with you. So when you think about working with a friend who doesn't share, try to figure out the way that they can best communicate it that feels authentic to them so they don't feel too exposed, but just be empathic.

From all the research you've done on depression, what have been some of the most shocking things that you found out or things that you weren't expecting with depression?

From all the research you've done on depression, what have been some of the most shocking things that you found out or things that you weren't expecting with depression?

You know, I always knew that women were twice as likely to have depression, twice as likely, twice as likely to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Wow, Yeah, isn't that fascinating?

You know, I always knew that women were twice as likely to have depression, twice as likely, twice as likely to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Wow, Yeah, isn't that fascinating?

It is fascinating because I also thought that women had a higher emotional capacity and the capacity to receive pain, to endure pain, to turn pain into goodness. Like in my mind, I thought women are just so built for resistance and adversity that I wasn't expecting it to.

It is fascinating because I also thought that women had a higher emotional capacity and the capacity to receive pain, to endure pain, to turn pain into goodness. Like in my mind, I thought women are just so built for resistance and adversity that I wasn't expecting it to.

Be that high. Yeah, I kind of thought it would be other way around.

Be that high. Yeah, I kind of thought it would be other way around.

Honestly, I think you're right and that we can take on more. We don't show as much, but with the actual stats, we are more likely to have depression and anxiety twice as likely. But men are more likely to die by suicide, right, So that's the difference. The suicide is what people take seriously, right, and they should. That is a crisis. But the fact that many of us are walking around pushing through pain. Right. This book is for women specifically too, because they tend to push through pain all their lives. Think about when you first got your period, right, you were told everyone gets it. You know, I have two sisters, the three of us. Everyone gets it, so you should be fine even though you're like taking a you know, algebra test and you're an excruciating cramps and you're like, well, push through it, and you have cheerlead to practice afterwards, you know, And then you think about, like PMDD, which is the pre mental mood issues that some women have. Right, they're told, well, you know, why do you have to take off from work? Because every woman gets their period? Right? And then postpartum depression, Well, women give birth, you know, like my mom had five kids. It's like, but did you know eighty percent of women have the blues? Like what's up with that? You know? And then perimenopause and menopause you know, are hormones. They make us more vulnerable. And there's only one psychiatrist for every thirty thousand people in this country in some parts. So I thought, why are we keeping this science for ourselves? Like why are we being greedy and stingy with it? So in my book, I talk about things that I learned as a medical student that we write up when we see you, but we don't share it. So like I want everyone to learn to understand the science of their own happiness. So know the science of your happiness, because the science of your happiness is not the same as mine. Even though we're both women, right, we have different experiences. We all have a bio psychosocial it's a Venn diagram, but our experiences within the biopsychosocial are different. So there's an exercise in the book where you can actually, you know, circle your biopsychosocial and look at your biological risk factors. So, as women, we go through changes once a month.

Honestly, I think you're right and that we can take on more. We don't show as much, but with the actual stats, we are more likely to have depression and anxiety twice as likely. But men are more likely to die by suicide, right, So that's the difference. The suicide is what people take seriously, right, and they should. That is a crisis. But the fact that many of us are walking around pushing through pain. Right. This book is for women specifically too, because they tend to push through pain all their lives. Think about when you first got your period, right, you were told everyone gets it. You know, I have two sisters, the three of us. Everyone gets it, so you should be fine even though you're like taking a you know, algebra test and you're an excruciating cramps and you're like, well, push through it, and you have cheerlead to practice afterwards, you know, And then you think about, like PMDD, which is the pre mental mood issues that some women have. Right, they're told, well, you know, why do you have to take off from work? Because every woman gets their period? Right? And then postpartum depression, Well, women give birth, you know, like my mom had five kids. It's like, but did you know eighty percent of women have the blues? Like what's up with that? You know? And then perimenopause and menopause you know, are hormones. They make us more vulnerable. And there's only one psychiatrist for every thirty thousand people in this country in some parts. So I thought, why are we keeping this science for ourselves? Like why are we being greedy and stingy with it? So in my book, I talk about things that I learned as a medical student that we write up when we see you, but we don't share it. So like I want everyone to learn to understand the science of their own happiness. So know the science of your happiness, because the science of your happiness is not the same as mine. Even though we're both women, right, we have different experiences. We all have a bio psychosocial it's a Venn diagram, but our experiences within the biopsychosocial are different. So there's an exercise in the book where you can actually, you know, circle your biopsychosocial and look at your biological risk factors. So, as women, we go through changes once a month.

Right, yeah, too often.

Right, yeah, too often.

And we also may have issues like I have low thyroid puts me at risk for depression anxiety. You know, you may have medical issues that put you at risk, or your family history. And then psychologically you have different trauma than I do, maybe different attachment styles, who knows, maybe similar you know, different resiliency factors, but within that understand it personally, I came to this country when I was very small, we had very little, so that scarcity trauma drives a lot of my high functioning depression. Right. And then socially, you know, I live in New York, you live in California. We have different surroundings, we have different jobs. I'm a single mom, I have a busy business. There are a lot of stressors. But then think about things in your social life, like your relationships. You know your work environment, how much you're drinking, or you know the foods that you eat. We all have our own biopsychosocial and so I recently gave a talk to like three hundred women and it had them draw their biopsychosocials and they were all so different. Right, we're all humans, right, we all have the DNA to have joy, but our joy is going to be different and our experiences. So understand the science of your own happiness and then you can use the tools. That's why so many people they read a book, they watch something on you know, social media, and they're like, well, I tried that. It didn't work for me, But did you understand the science of your happiness? Because how are you using these tools when you don't even understand yourself?

And we also may have issues like I have low thyroid puts me at risk for depression anxiety. You know, you may have medical issues that put you at risk, or your family history. And then psychologically you have different trauma than I do, maybe different attachment styles, who knows, maybe similar you know, different resiliency factors, but within that understand it personally, I came to this country when I was very small, we had very little, so that scarcity trauma drives a lot of my high functioning depression. Right. And then socially, you know, I live in New York, you live in California. We have different surroundings, we have different jobs. I'm a single mom, I have a busy business. There are a lot of stressors. But then think about things in your social life, like your relationships. You know your work environment, how much you're drinking, or you know the foods that you eat. We all have our own biopsychosocial and so I recently gave a talk to like three hundred women and it had them draw their biopsychosocials and they were all so different. Right, we're all humans, right, we all have the DNA to have joy, but our joy is going to be different and our experiences. So understand the science of your own happiness and then you can use the tools. That's why so many people they read a book, they watch something on you know, social media, and they're like, well, I tried that. It didn't work for me, But did you understand the science of your happiness? Because how are you using these tools when you don't even understand yourself?

Right?

Right?

So I wanted to democratize that. And yes, one of the things that I found was that women tend to push through pain, and in my research caregivers, they're the ones that are feeling overwhelmed, right, Yeah, I imagine because they can't stop. You know, ask any mom who's busy, who has a working and they don't have a choice.

So I wanted to democratize that. And yes, one of the things that I found was that women tend to push through pain, and in my research caregivers, they're the ones that are feeling overwhelmed, right, Yeah, I imagine because they can't stop. You know, ask any mom who's busy, who has a working and they don't have a choice.

They don't choice that they're making. Yeah, they have to show up.

They don't choice that they're making. Yeah, they have to show up.

So even though they want to shut down, they can't.

So even though they want to shut down, they can't.

How can someone create moments of joy when they feel overwhelmed by sadness? Like well, you know you've been talking about joy so much and the science of your own joy. What are some of the things that you found have been known to bring joy to people? Like without film, if you do this, this can probably bring you some joy in your life.

How can someone create moments of joy when they feel overwhelmed by sadness? Like well, you know you've been talking about joy so much and the science of your own joy. What are some of the things that you found have been known to bring joy to people? Like without film, if you do this, this can probably bring you some joy in your life.

Well, I go back to the five v's, right, because you I don't tell people to do all five at once, because people will get overwhelmed, deflated and feel like they you know that they give up. It's it's similar when you see these like these skin routines and you're like, I cannot do all that.

Well, I go back to the five v's, right, because you I don't tell people to do all five at once, because people will get overwhelmed, deflated and feel like they you know that they give up. It's it's similar when you see these like these skin routines and you're like, I cannot do all that.

Yeah, and also my skin does not look like that when but when I do that routine.

Yeah, and also my skin does not look like that when but when I do that routine.

I saw a video of a woman who was like wrapped from my head to toe and I'm like, uh, but so like do one or two a day if possible, tappen too one or two of the v's. It's so interesting because I have this research lab that's very scientific, and then I have the happiness lab that's really my passion projects, right, and so when people come to the happiness lab, they're like, I just want to be happy. When people come to the research lab, we're trying to eradicate depression. So there's this like disconnect between the real world and research. So it's a reframe. Right. When I ask patients to come to therapy, you know what is happiness for you? They it's all a list of things. It's ideas, right like when I get that you know job that I want, that partner at that house, you know the stuff, this idea of happiness. Whereas when you think of happiness and the research, you don't find that word happy. You find points that make up pleasure. Right, So like when you are hungry, did you savor your food? When you were lonely? Did you feel connected to someone when you were with people? Did you enjoy the interactions when you got dressed for the day, did you feel pride in the way that you look? Right? So, joy is this plethora of sensations that you experience, whereas happiness is this idea that you're trying to achieve. But the science shows that when you get the thing that makes you happy, you're still not happy, You're still chasing. So it's a reframe. Try to get as many points of joy in a day. So think about it as Okay, today I got two points, Tomorrow maybe I'll get three points, and maybe the next day I'll get zero points, but I can always make it up the next day, right, Versus I just want to be happy, because if you are pushing to become happy, you're likely not going to get happy when you get that thing that you think will make you happy. Right, But try to increase your points of joy every day. So when you're having your tea, you're sipping your tea, you're tasting the herbs, you're feeling, you go down, you're feeling relaxed, versus I'm in my friend, my phone shopping while having my tea. You know, try to be present in these physiological things that makes being human human.