Okay, cats up thing little food for yourself life. Oh it's pretty bad.

Okay, cats up thing little food for yourself life. Oh it's pretty bad.

Hey, it's pretty beautiful.

Hey, it's pretty beautiful.

Thing beautiful that for a little mouth's exciting, said, he can cut your kicking with four Thing with Amy.

Thing beautiful that for a little mouth's exciting, said, he can cut your kicking with four Thing with Amy.

Brown, Happy Thursday. Four Things Amy Here. So I was with my girlfriends last night for a little birthday celebration, and today's episode is inspired by that. Kat arranged an outdoor yoga class with six of our friends and it was glorious, Like it was awesome. Bloom and Balance Wellness is who she hired and they were amazing. I will definitely be booking them myself for something in the future. So if you're in Nashville, you're visiting for a bachelorette or girls weekend, or even if guys are with you too, make this one of your activities.

Brown, Happy Thursday. Four Things Amy Here. So I was with my girlfriends last night for a little birthday celebration, and today's episode is inspired by that. Kat arranged an outdoor yoga class with six of our friends and it was glorious, Like it was awesome. Bloom and Balance Wellness is who she hired and they were amazing. I will definitely be booking them myself for something in the future. So if you're in Nashville, you're visiting for a bachelorette or girls weekend, or even if guys are with you too, make this one of your activities.

They will come to you.

They will come to you.

They bring Matt's towels, spaw water, and intention cards or waiting on your map for you. And my card said I am on the right path and I trust that things are moving in my favor, which that card is so perfect for me right now. We did pilates and yoga, so it was a fusion class and that was my mantra while we worked out, I am on the right path, and I trust things are moving in my favor and that feels very very true for me right now, very true, which feels really good. So anyway, Bloom and Balance, Bloom and Balance Wellness, that is I think that's their full thing. I try to look for their website. I don't know if they have one, which is totally fine because they have an Instagram and you can learn everything there and their handle is at Bloom and Balance Wellness and I just wanted to tell you all how amazing they are. One of their posts on their Instagram says, hi, friends, we are Bloom and Balance, two best friends bringing our love of yoga and pilates to Nashville. Our mission is to combine fitness, a good time and bring it to wherever you are. Whether your group prefers a little sweat sash or a restorative practice, it's whatever your jam is.

They bring Matt's towels, spaw water, and intention cards or waiting on your map for you. And my card said I am on the right path and I trust that things are moving in my favor, which that card is so perfect for me right now. We did pilates and yoga, so it was a fusion class and that was my mantra while we worked out, I am on the right path, and I trust things are moving in my favor and that feels very very true for me right now, very true, which feels really good. So anyway, Bloom and Balance, Bloom and Balance Wellness, that is I think that's their full thing. I try to look for their website. I don't know if they have one, which is totally fine because they have an Instagram and you can learn everything there and their handle is at Bloom and Balance Wellness and I just wanted to tell you all how amazing they are. One of their posts on their Instagram says, hi, friends, we are Bloom and Balance, two best friends bringing our love of yoga and pilates to Nashville. Our mission is to combine fitness, a good time and bring it to wherever you are. Whether your group prefers a little sweat sash or a restorative practice, it's whatever your jam is.

Let us curate your perfect class.

Let us curate your perfect class.

And they put a little heart so for us it was more restorative and it was just what we needed. It was a perfect way to sell Aburt my birthday and I loved it. My friends loved it. So thank you Kat for booking that we set up little blankets afterwards for a picnic and we watched the sunset and we talked and it was again the perfect way to sell aburt my birthday. But a couple of my friends are boy moms, so that leads me to today's episode Gracie and Ali, and they were talking about how tender their little boys are. Other boys are younger, and my son is fourteen, Stevenson, but he also has a very tender heart. So we were all looking at each other like what happens to guys, Like somewhere along the way culturally, many males lose touch with their tenderness. And so Kat chimed in and she was like, oh, this is what my EPs episode with Justin Baldoni was about. So I would like for y'all to get to know Kat a little more. And I think playing this interview is perfect for this conversation because whether you're a boy mom, or you're married to a boy, or you are dating a boy, or might marry a boy one day, or have men in your lives. I don't know why I keep saying boys, but hopefully by the time you're getting married, they're a man. But this episode is a great chat should be helpful for you, and Kat would like it to be known that she is proudly team Justin. This episode was recorded for her You Need Therapy podcast a few years ago, so there is no Blake Lively. It ends with us drama, but she's Team Justin. All right, hope y'all have the day you need to have and that you enjoy this chat with Kat and Justin Baldoni.

And they put a little heart so for us it was more restorative and it was just what we needed. It was a perfect way to sell Aburt my birthday and I loved it. My friends loved it. So thank you Kat for booking that we set up little blankets afterwards for a picnic and we watched the sunset and we talked and it was again the perfect way to sell aburt my birthday. But a couple of my friends are boy moms, so that leads me to today's episode Gracie and Ali, and they were talking about how tender their little boys are. Other boys are younger, and my son is fourteen, Stevenson, but he also has a very tender heart. So we were all looking at each other like what happens to guys, Like somewhere along the way culturally, many males lose touch with their tenderness. And so Kat chimed in and she was like, oh, this is what my EPs episode with Justin Baldoni was about. So I would like for y'all to get to know Kat a little more. And I think playing this interview is perfect for this conversation because whether you're a boy mom, or you're married to a boy, or you are dating a boy, or might marry a boy one day, or have men in your lives. I don't know why I keep saying boys, but hopefully by the time you're getting married, they're a man. But this episode is a great chat should be helpful for you, and Kat would like it to be known that she is proudly team Justin. This episode was recorded for her You Need Therapy podcast a few years ago, so there is no Blake Lively. It ends with us drama, but she's Team Justin. All right, hope y'all have the day you need to have and that you enjoy this chat with Kat and Justin Baldoni.

Okay, so let's start with this question.

Okay, so let's start with this question.

So reading the book and then also listening to your podcast, and also so your Ted talk that was I think did that kind of spearhead all of this.

So reading the book and then also listening to your podcast, and also so your Ted talk that was I think did that kind of spearhead all of this.

Yeah, I started shooting the Men and of TV digital series and then I did the Ted Talk.

Yeah, I started shooting the Men and of TV digital series and then I did the Ted Talk.

But the Ted Talk really is what kind of took everything off, and I took off and inspired me to go deeper.

But the Ted Talk really is what kind of took everything off, and I took off and inspired me to go deeper.

So a lot of what you are talking about is talking about masculinity, the way the world's set up in our culture and a lot.

So a lot of what you are talking about is talking about masculinity, the way the world's set up in our culture and a lot.

Of the issues with it.

Of the issues with it.

But at the same time, the way that our culture is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.

But at the same time, the way that our culture is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.

So I want to hear what has been.

So I want to hear what has been.

Like for you to kind of break some of that down, especially because I think depending on who you are and where you are in your life, there's probably people that are like, don't mess this up for us. You know, there's probably some men that are like, well, this is working for us because if we have our horse blinders on, we don't have to pay attention to a lot of stuff that you're exposing.

Like for you to kind of break some of that down, especially because I think depending on who you are and where you are in your life, there's probably people that are like, don't mess this up for us. You know, there's probably some men that are like, well, this is working for us because if we have our horse blinders on, we don't have to pay attention to a lot of stuff that you're exposing.

So what has that process been like for you?

So what has that process been like for you?

It's a great question. Not the or fun or comfortable.

It's a great question. Not the or fun or comfortable.

But before you even get into that, the idea of there's like a lot of men that would say, don't mess this up for us is I think part of the issue in that men aren't saying that because most men don't think they're at an advantage. So this could be controversial, but I just believe in the goodness of men, and I don't believe that men are out there thinking that this world benefits me. I'm at an advantage and therefore I want to keep my power, because that would be assuming that most men are not good men and they're power hungry and they want to stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men who are kind of anti this movement of equality or keep men strong and all this type of stuff. I honestly believe those men have the most fear and that they they are looking at their lives and saying, my life is freaking hard. I'm hurting, I'm struggling. Work's not going great, you know, trying to make it this work with my wife. I'm working too much. I don't get to see my kids.

But before you even get into that, the idea of there's like a lot of men that would say, don't mess this up for us is I think part of the issue in that men aren't saying that because most men don't think they're at an advantage. So this could be controversial, but I just believe in the goodness of men, and I don't believe that men are out there thinking that this world benefits me. I'm at an advantage and therefore I want to keep my power, because that would be assuming that most men are not good men and they're power hungry and they want to stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men who are kind of anti this movement of equality or keep men strong and all this type of stuff. I honestly believe those men have the most fear and that they they are looking at their lives and saying, my life is freaking hard. I'm hurting, I'm struggling. Work's not going great, you know, trying to make it this work with my wife. I'm working too much. I don't get to see my kids.

Like I think. I think that men are like, this isn't working for me.

Like I think. I think that men are like, this isn't working for me.

Don't tell me I'm at a disadvantage, or don't don't tell me I'm at an advantage. Don't tell me that I have privilege. I think that that's where it comes from. I don't think it's like I have all this power, this world benefits me, and therefore, like f this guy and stop talking about gender equality, because what we know about privilege is that for folks with privilege, equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So in terms of just this movement itself and like equality, I think the issue is that, yes, as a man, I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, that women don't have, that black men don't have. Right, gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.

Don't tell me I'm at a disadvantage, or don't don't tell me I'm at an advantage. Don't tell me that I have privilege. I think that that's where it comes from. I don't think it's like I have all this power, this world benefits me, and therefore, like f this guy and stop talking about gender equality, because what we know about privilege is that for folks with privilege, equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So in terms of just this movement itself and like equality, I think the issue is that, yes, as a man, I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, that women don't have, that black men don't have. Right, gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.

But I was not.

But I was not.

Taught to recognize that privilege as a man, I was just brought up in this society and told this is how it goes, and this is how it works, and this is what you have to do if you want to succeed or win.

Taught to recognize that privilege as a man, I was just brought up in this society and told this is how it goes, and this is how it works, and this is what you have to do if you want to succeed or win.

And the problem with having.

And the problem with having.

That type of privileg it's in a patriarchal society, is that I am not allowed to hurt. So while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right, I in general know that just from being born, and if I have an education, I'll make more money than women.

That type of privileg it's in a patriarchal society, is that I am not allowed to hurt. So while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right, I in general know that just from being born, and if I have an education, I'll make more money than women.

Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.

Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.

But what doesn't come with it is the space to hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed and to be confused and to be and to have anxiety and to be a human being in our culture. So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more than it's helping me, because all of the benefits I'm getting from the patriarchy are material benefits the emotional tax that I have to pay for that I believe is far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing this work, is why Yeah, I did it sets out reluctantly, which is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly, because I know that by coming out and challenging this system and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there are never going to be men who don't recognize that they are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have an eight privilege.

But what doesn't come with it is the space to hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed and to be confused and to be and to have anxiety and to be a human being in our culture. So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more than it's helping me, because all of the benefits I'm getting from the patriarchy are material benefits the emotional tax that I have to pay for that I believe is far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing this work, is why Yeah, I did it sets out reluctantly, which is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly, because I know that by coming out and challenging this system and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there are never going to be men who don't recognize that they are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have an eight privilege.

Who are going to then use what they have been.

Who are going to then use what they have been.

Taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me and bring me down and make me feel less than that's, of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.

Taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me and bring me down and make me feel less than that's, of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.

Does that answer your question a little bit?

Does that answer your question a little bit?

That more than answers my question. Everything you said was both. It's hard.

That more than answers my question. Everything you said was both. It's hard.

I think part of it's hard for me to hear that because that was my thoughts, in my bias, in my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist, I work primarily with women, not because that's what I ask to work with because the majority of people going to therapy are women.

I think part of it's hard for me to hear that because that was my thoughts, in my bias, in my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist, I work primarily with women, not because that's what I ask to work with because the majority of people going to therapy are women.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.

And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.

Amp Oh so cool.

Amp Oh so cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the other thing about that is I have a caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.

So the other thing about that is I have a caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.

I think there's three guys.

I think there's three guys.

Of those three guys, none of them are talking about body image or eating or anything like that. And it's also not because men don't have that problem. No, it's because men aren't talking about that as much. Which to go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's your Body Image one two.

Of those three guys, none of them are talking about body image or eating or anything like that. And it's also not because men don't have that problem. No, it's because men aren't talking about that as much. Which to go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's your Body Image one two.

That's a really deep chapter.

That's a really deep chapter.

It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me, I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us. And so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we have this, or we have but the real meat of what life is about, we don't have as much space in that realm.

It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me, I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us. And so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we have this, or we have but the real meat of what life is about, we don't have as much space in that realm.

No, there's no space, and it makes this makes perfect sense.

No, there's no space, and it makes this makes perfect sense.

There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.

There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.

To eating disorders, because what.

To eating disorders, because what.

We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how we as men are told we should look when our bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless you have some form of an eating disorder.

We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how we as men are told we should look when our bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless you have some form of an eating disorder.

Right, thank you.

Right, thank you.

I mean we've even disguised, like I know a ton of men with eating disorders that just.

I mean we've even disguised, like I know a ton of men with eating disorders that just.

Say that they're fasting.

Say that they're fasting.

Oh for sure.

Oh for sure.

You know, look at our diets, look at the way we're look at the way we're eating, and the way that we are tracking calories and all of these types of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life, which is why I talk in the book about the why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome, and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly really your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're not actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow Instagram influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types of things. In reality, like I know a lot of these guys that are really unhappy.

You know, look at our diets, look at the way we're look at the way we're eating, and the way that we are tracking calories and all of these types of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life, which is why I talk in the book about the why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome, and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly really your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're not actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow Instagram influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types of things. In reality, like I know a lot of these guys that are really unhappy.

They are they need therapy.

They are they need therapy.

And they repress it and they push it down, and they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that they eat, and they obsess over their food and if they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours. Like this is all very normalized types of things, but we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's a very high chance probability that there's some meeting disorder stuff happening there.

And they repress it and they push it down, and they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that they eat, and they obsess over their food and if they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours. Like this is all very normalized types of things, but we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's a very high chance probability that there's some meeting disorder stuff happening there.

And on top of that, we have image.

And on top of that, we have image.

Disorders and body like body ed morphia, multipless morphia, all these types of things that so many of us men have, but we've just chucked that up to being men. This is just a part of it, and we're not actually talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates to like the idea that there's no men in therapy or in your practice, women have had to lean on each other and build community to cope. I believe with the stress and tacts of what it means to be a woman in society, women that have had to be there for each.

Disorders and body like body ed morphia, multipless morphia, all these types of things that so many of us men have, but we've just chucked that up to being men. This is just a part of it, and we're not actually talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates to like the idea that there's no men in therapy or in your practice, women have had to lean on each other and build community to cope. I believe with the stress and tacts of what it means to be a woman in society, women that have had to be there for each.

Other because men can't be there for each other.

Other because men can't be there for each other.

And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women have to put up with on a daily basis from men, men also then put women in a place where they have to be their therapists and confide in them. So not only are women holding all of the female things that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions, the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress of trying to raise a family and be mothers and and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she now has to also hold the weight of her man because her man can't talk to men or anybody else because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place a woman can go is other women. So therefore community was built, which is why, like, I know, you know so many women who on like you know, they see another woman and boom, how are you? What's happening in your life? Tell me are you okay? And men are just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's just watch the game, drink a beer and whatever it is.

And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women have to put up with on a daily basis from men, men also then put women in a place where they have to be their therapists and confide in them. So not only are women holding all of the female things that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions, the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress of trying to raise a family and be mothers and and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she now has to also hold the weight of her man because her man can't talk to men or anybody else because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place a woman can go is other women. So therefore community was built, which is why, like, I know, you know so many women who on like you know, they see another woman and boom, how are you? What's happening in your life? Tell me are you okay? And men are just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's just watch the game, drink a beer and whatever it is.

Here's my question for you.

Here's my question for you.

What happens when a guy does do that like what happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and maybe you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey, before we put the game on.

What happens when a guy does do that like what happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and maybe you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey, before we put the game on.

I don't know if men do this, Like how are you?

I don't know if men do this, Like how are you?

Men don't do that?

Men don't do that?

The problem is is that from a very early age, I don't want to say all men, but a vast majority of men from my research and both in my research, both in my personal life and also actual research, are taught that that's not.

The problem is is that from a very early age, I don't want to say all men, but a vast majority of men from my research and both in my research, both in my personal life and also actual research, are taught that that's not.

A safe thing to do.

A safe thing to do.

And that happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing that happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and making fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught.

And that happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing that happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and making fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught.

Then is that men are not safe spaces.

Then is that men are not safe spaces.

That if I'm going to, as an example, like you know who knows piss in my pants or something as a kid, or pe in the bed and I'm going to sleep over, then those boys will go tell other boys and I'll get made fun of at school. So the vulnerability thing, right, the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid will then be used against me. Why because as boys were taught that we have to one up each other in order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the ladder of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys down to build yourself up. That's this mirage of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's built on. It's this one upmanship. And so God knows whether you're like, you know, the kid that had an acted in it when you den well, we know that boys.

That if I'm going to, as an example, like you know who knows piss in my pants or something as a kid, or pe in the bed and I'm going to sleep over, then those boys will go tell other boys and I'll get made fun of at school. So the vulnerability thing, right, the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid will then be used against me. Why because as boys were taught that we have to one up each other in order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the ladder of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys down to build yourself up. That's this mirage of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's built on. It's this one upmanship. And so God knows whether you're like, you know, the kid that had an acted in it when you den well, we know that boys.

Hate that and keep calling that kid that name until their teen years in high school, forever, forever you get labeled these things.

Hate that and keep calling that kid that name until their teen years in high school, forever, forever you get labeled these things.

I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven, eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing like all the other kids, and I was getting these like you know, the wind could blow and I would get an erection. This is what happens to young boys. Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk to us about it. We don't learn about it in school, we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing their shame around it. We haven't discovered sex yet. By eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced to porn, although my body hadn't really started changing so much yet that I was able to use it to like masturbate or things like that. But we're exposed to these things at a young age. And I remember being with another guy and no thought, no anything, My body is just like I just got an erection, and I remember tucking it into my pants and making a joke about it because he's another boy and he's going through p and I'm like, oh.

I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven, eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing like all the other kids, and I was getting these like you know, the wind could blow and I would get an erection. This is what happens to young boys. Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk to us about it. We don't learn about it in school, we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing their shame around it. We haven't discovered sex yet. By eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced to porn, although my body hadn't really started changing so much yet that I was able to use it to like masturbate or things like that. But we're exposed to these things at a young age. And I remember being with another guy and no thought, no anything, My body is just like I just got an erection, and I remember tucking it into my pants and making a joke about it because he's another boy and he's going through p and I'm like, oh.

He'll get it.

He'll get it.

And instead he went to school and started a room or that I touched myself around.

And instead he went to school and started a room or that I touched myself around.

Him, and I didn't know what happened, and all of a sudden, everybody was laughing at me. When I got off the butt the next day, and this was my good friend, and I was like, what's happening? And people were and girls were laughing, and guys were laughing, and they were calling me names, and luckily I had so many friends that were girls. I said, what's going on? And a girl whispered to me.

Him, and I didn't know what happened, and all of a sudden, everybody was laughing at me. When I got off the butt the next day, and this was my good friend, and I was like, what's happening? And people were and girls were laughing, and guys were laughing, and they were calling me names, and luckily I had so many friends that were girls. I said, what's going on? And a girl whispered to me.

And they said, he said that you were touching yourself in front of him, and I was mortified because I wasn't.

And they said, he said that you were touching yourself in front of him, and I was mortified because I wasn't.

I literally was adjusting my eleven year old direction. And here was this boy who knew that if you went to school the next day and made fun of me, that everybody would view him as more powerful or popular or whatever it is. So at eleven years old, I knew, Boom, men are not safe. Boys are not safe. Girls are safe, and that's what we do.

I literally was adjusting my eleven year old direction. And here was this boy who knew that if you went to school the next day and made fun of me, that everybody would view him as more powerful or popular or whatever it is. So at eleven years old, I knew, Boom, men are not safe. Boys are not safe. Girls are safe, and that's what we do.

So that's in us, and every man has their own version of that, their own experience. But that happens over and over and over and over again in our lives.

So that's in us, and every man has their own version of that, their own experience. But that happens over and over and over and over again in our lives.

So much was just brought up in that I'm sitting here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do? Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program, but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women, but I was I started a men's body image group because I was like, I think people might want to come.

So much was just brought up in that I'm sitting here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do? Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program, but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women, but I was I started a men's body image group because I was like, I think people might want to come.

And little by little, one guy came.

And little by little, one guy came.

Then the next week, three guys came, the next week finally there's like ten twelve guys, which was a cap And one of the guys said to me one day because I was like, do you guys like want to come here, like do we want me to keep doing this? And he was like, Kat, this is the group and these people are in its residential treatment, so they're in groups in therapy all day long, all week long. He said, I look forward to this group every week now. It is the group that I feel the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that that was because there's a female running. It could have had something to do with that, But I think the other thing is the group was created to talk about things that weren't talked about in their house, in their in their program, it was like the women's issue. So that memory just got brought up from me as you were talking, because they could have been talking about that in their groups. They could have been talking about body I mentioned in their group, but obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because somebody would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or made a joke or said something or looked at them weird. And in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody had the same shared issue. So long winded way, what are we supposed to do to help men feel safe with other men? So then the women aren't exhausted and the men actually can get their needs met.

Then the next week, three guys came, the next week finally there's like ten twelve guys, which was a cap And one of the guys said to me one day because I was like, do you guys like want to come here, like do we want me to keep doing this? And he was like, Kat, this is the group and these people are in its residential treatment, so they're in groups in therapy all day long, all week long. He said, I look forward to this group every week now. It is the group that I feel the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that that was because there's a female running. It could have had something to do with that, But I think the other thing is the group was created to talk about things that weren't talked about in their house, in their in their program, it was like the women's issue. So that memory just got brought up from me as you were talking, because they could have been talking about that in their groups. They could have been talking about body I mentioned in their group, but obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because somebody would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or made a joke or said something or looked at them weird. And in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody had the same shared issue. So long winded way, what are we supposed to do to help men feel safe with other men? So then the women aren't exhausted and the men actually can get their needs met.

The two things that I can think of, one of them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah, because women are not immune from the shaming response either.

The two things that I can think of, one of them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah, because women are not immune from the shaming response either.

It's really tricky.

It's really tricky.

So, you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm sure you've read writes about female misogyny and I don't believe it's intentional. I'm sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic because for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very surprising how many quote unquote woke women actually have a lot of their own internal misogyny. And what that looks like is I think a combination a lot of things. One is, we've all been raised the same way men and women have been socialized in the same way. Women have been socialized to view men in the same way that men have been socialized to view men, and to be themselves.

So, you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm sure you've read writes about female misogyny and I don't believe it's intentional. I'm sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic because for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very surprising how many quote unquote woke women actually have a lot of their own internal misogyny. And what that looks like is I think a combination a lot of things. One is, we've all been raised the same way men and women have been socialized in the same way. Women have been socialized to view men in the same way that men have been socialized to view men, and to be themselves.

So there is a part of many women, while they desire, I believe vulnerability in a man, there's a part of them that has been trained to be disgusted by it.

So there is a part of many women, while they desire, I believe vulnerability in a man, there's a part of them that has been trained to be disgusted by it.

Well. Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought, like be vulnerable, but like not too much, Like I want I want my partner to cry, but I don't want him to be like two whiny and.

Well. Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought, like be vulnerable, but like not too much, Like I want I want my partner to cry, but I don't want him to be like two whiny and.

What is that line, right? And that's a really tricky thing.

What is that line, right? And that's a really tricky thing.

Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that women have here and really this is a woman's conversation. I can't have the conversation for women. What I can tell women who are listening, assuming that most of your listeners are women, is that be very mindful of the moment a man opens up to you and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether or not it's safe for him to open up. Because if he can't open up with men, and he does finally open up with a woman and the woman loses attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened many times. Yeah, you're creating a situation where a man literally has.

Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that women have here and really this is a woman's conversation. I can't have the conversation for women. What I can tell women who are listening, assuming that most of your listeners are women, is that be very mindful of the moment a man opens up to you and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether or not it's safe for him to open up. Because if he can't open up with men, and he does finally open up with a woman and the woman loses attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened many times. Yeah, you're creating a situation where a man literally has.

Nowhere to go. Now.

Nowhere to go. Now.

I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their own women, but we have to start somewhere, and there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of going to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many men who have never trained, Like, it's not going up and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest. Talking to another dude calling another guy and being like, hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary, which is why so many of us men go to women and have made women are therapists. The difference is how can women hold some of that without allowing that boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the therapist?

I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their own women, but we have to start somewhere, and there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of going to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many men who have never trained, Like, it's not going up and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest. Talking to another dude calling another guy and being like, hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary, which is why so many of us men go to women and have made women are therapists. The difference is how can women hold some of that without allowing that boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the therapist?

And what ends up happening?

And what ends up happening?

As I've had I can't even tell you how many messages I have from men who have watched that Ted Talker read the book now and have opened up to women and had and the women have rejected them. It just happens all the time, and not even the woman's fault, because the woman has been told this part of a man if they do this, the guy's a pussy, that guy's of this, that guy's he's weak and he and then what do we tell women that a weak man can't protect them?

As I've had I can't even tell you how many messages I have from men who have watched that Ted Talker read the book now and have opened up to women and had and the women have rejected them. It just happens all the time, and not even the woman's fault, because the woman has been told this part of a man if they do this, the guy's a pussy, that guy's of this, that guy's he's weak and he and then what do we tell women that a weak man can't protect them?

Why? Because women need to be protected from who from men?

Why? Because women need to be protected from who from men?

So it goes back to it's it's it's like, I have so much empathy and compassion especially for women here because it's not your fault. You need a strong man to protect you from other men. So the idea of vulnerability when it comes into the equation. It makes women feel unsafe in this strange way. And so what I would ask is, like, read Bell Hooks, Read Glenn and Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially her chapter I think It's Boys where she talks about it. See if you can push past that initial response and hold it for a moment, and then let's like not train our men like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. The second piece of this is it's not just to snap your fingers and men can create safe faiths for men, but the only way it will start to work is if there are super badass strong men who are willing to start to be vulnerable, which is why I personally believe if we were to slip the idea of these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the.

So it goes back to it's it's it's like, I have so much empathy and compassion especially for women here because it's not your fault. You need a strong man to protect you from other men. So the idea of vulnerability when it comes into the equation. It makes women feel unsafe in this strange way. And so what I would ask is, like, read Bell Hooks, Read Glenn and Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially her chapter I think It's Boys where she talks about it. See if you can push past that initial response and hold it for a moment, and then let's like not train our men like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. The second piece of this is it's not just to snap your fingers and men can create safe faiths for men, but the only way it will start to work is if there are super badass strong men who are willing to start to be vulnerable, which is why I personally believe if we were to slip the idea of these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the.

Bravest man sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome?

Bravest man sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome?

But can you run into the burning building of your depression and share that with another man? I would argue that the emotional bravery is true bravery.

But can you run into the burning building of your depression and share that with another man? I would argue that the emotional bravery is true bravery.

We we're talking about something that Berne Brown used to talk a lot about in the beginning of herself too. Is the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the kind of person who will run into a burning and building, and courage is the kind of person who will show up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about. And I think that's really important because I mean that last part you said about like women need men to be manly, masculine and strong and all of that, because we need men to protect the whole cycles like we need those men to protect us, but we need those men to protect us because of the whole thing. And the first yes, it's wild to me, which also, this is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled from your book.

We we're talking about something that Berne Brown used to talk a lot about in the beginning of herself too. Is the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the kind of person who will run into a burning and building, and courage is the kind of person who will show up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about. And I think that's really important because I mean that last part you said about like women need men to be manly, masculine and strong and all of that, because we need men to protect the whole cycles like we need those men to protect us, but we need those men to protect us because of the whole thing. And the first yes, it's wild to me, which also, this is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled from your book.

And I might not say exactly correct.

And I might not say exactly correct.

But you said something, Okay, great, so it was in the body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far. But you said something like looking strong is in a way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak. And I think that that's kind of what you're talking right here. Like the person that runs into a burning building to save somebody, that person looks really freaking strong, and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what are are you doing that to look like a man? Because you feel like you have to because of X, Y Z or or why are you even doing that? And then in your life and your relationship, in your job and whatever, are you able to show up? Are you able to run into the burning building of the conflict that you guys have exactly?

But you said something, Okay, great, so it was in the body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far. But you said something like looking strong is in a way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak. And I think that that's kind of what you're talking right here. Like the person that runs into a burning building to save somebody, that person looks really freaking strong, and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what are are you doing that to look like a man? Because you feel like you have to because of X, Y Z or or why are you even doing that? And then in your life and your relationship, in your job and whatever, are you able to show up? Are you able to run into the burning building of the conflict that you guys have exactly?

And and let's be mindful of course, because firefighters and you know, police officers, right, you know, of military folks, that is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want to say like one is more important than the other, but what you find oftentimes is is, uh, these professions are professions, and they're high risk professions. But we've been taught as men and boys as a young age that those are the professions that equate to a certain masculine status, like those are the heroes.

And and let's be mindful of course, because firefighters and you know, police officers, right, you know, of military folks, that is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want to say like one is more important than the other, but what you find oftentimes is is, uh, these professions are professions, and they're high risk professions. But we've been taught as men and boys as a young age that those are the professions that equate to a certain masculine status, like those are the heroes.

Right. So there's always this i think unmet need of wanting to grow up and be and be seen as that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us and it it kills us, and it also is the thing that makes us brave because that young boys were taught you're a boy, you're a man.

Right. So there's always this i think unmet need of wanting to grow up and be and be seen as that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us and it it kills us, and it also is the thing that makes us brave because that young boys were taught you're a boy, you're a man.

Physical risks, take them, so you grow up and you become these these these professions, these you know, responders, these heroes, But can we also do that in our personal life, which is what you're saying, and that cycle of like training men that this is what it's this is what it means for you to be a man, this is this is the type of job this is. You know, it's like we have freaking calendars of firefighters because women like google at them because they're sexy in uniform and they risk their lives and all of these things. But like are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed? Are they what therapist's office are they in? You know, Look, there's just there's so.

Physical risks, take them, so you grow up and you become these these these professions, these you know, responders, these heroes, But can we also do that in our personal life, which is what you're saying, and that cycle of like training men that this is what it's this is what it means for you to be a man, this is this is the type of job this is. You know, it's like we have freaking calendars of firefighters because women like google at them because they're sexy in uniform and they risk their lives and all of these things. But like are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed? Are they what therapist's office are they in? You know, Look, there's just there's so.

Much repressed anxiety and fear and frustration.

Much repressed anxiety and fear and frustration.

That so many of us men are walking around with that we don't have an outlet for so so it goes into our work, It ends up as work addiction, It goes into us taking more physical risks and we don't have any place to put it.

That so many of us men are walking around with that we don't have an outlet for so so it goes into our work, It ends up as work addiction, It goes into us taking more physical risks and we don't have any place to put it.

And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I do want to say thank you because I think that when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong men that are willing to take the risk to do this to show up because somebody has to start, Like somebody has to start and that brings me to my very favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me quote and she said, never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has. And that's one of the reasons I was like, I need to talk to you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and then you're writing this book and it started with a lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually leaning into the work you're doing. And then from that then men are actually being invited in. And so you start your one person who has started kind of like a huge shift. And I don't know if it feels huge to you, but it's huge, like it really is.

And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I do want to say thank you because I think that when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong men that are willing to take the risk to do this to show up because somebody has to start, Like somebody has to start and that brings me to my very favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me quote and she said, never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has. And that's one of the reasons I was like, I need to talk to you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and then you're writing this book and it started with a lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually leaning into the work you're doing. And then from that then men are actually being invited in. And so you start your one person who has started kind of like a huge shift. And I don't know if it feels huge to you, but it's huge, like it really is.

Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.

Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.

I always try to go back to the one person, the one man, And every day I'm getting a few of these one men who are writing sayings something or saying that it shifts something, you know, And I get to keep having these moments every day where it's like it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.

I always try to go back to the one person, the one man, And every day I'm getting a few of these one men who are writing sayings something or saying that it shifts something, you know, And I get to keep having these moments every day where it's like it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.

Our society focuses.

Our society focuses.

So much on mass change, like mass impact how many people? It's like we grow up right now, it's like, not enough to affect one person, you have.

So much on mass change, like mass impact how many people? It's like we grow up right now, it's like, not enough to affect one person, you have.

To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?

To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?

And that's not at all especially being raised in the buy of faith, that's not at all our view. It gods all back to how to be a humble servant and affect that one person.

And that's not at all especially being raised in the buy of faith, that's not at all our view. It gods all back to how to be a humble servant and affect that one person.

So even in this world where.

So even in this world where.

Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these types of things, it's about the one man because that one man at any given point in time is interacting with how many women on a daily basis? How many other men? How many you know? Does he have children?

Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these types of things, it's about the one man because that one man at any given point in time is interacting with how many women on a daily basis? How many other men? How many you know? Does he have children?

This is how we change the world. You have to do that. You have to So it's very tricky, it's confusing. I still struggle with it.

This is how we change the world. You have to do that. You have to So it's very tricky, it's confusing. I still struggle with it.

It's still hard for me to reach out to other men because then when you get to a point when you're known as that kind of person, you're like, you know, all these men look up to me.

It's still hard for me to reach out to other men because then when you get to a point when you're known as that kind of person, you're like, you know, all these men look up to me.

Yeah, now even in my.

Yeah, now even in my.

Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all of these things, you know, because we're never immune to. It's why I wrote the book as a student, as a teacher, So yeah, it's all in us. It's it's my socialization is in me. So I could be writing a book and giving ted talks and talking about these things and yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm struggling with something, and that's that's just being human. Like we don't just reach the other side. It's a constant daily practice.

Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all of these things, you know, because we're never immune to. It's why I wrote the book as a student, as a teacher, So yeah, it's all in us. It's it's my socialization is in me. So I could be writing a book and giving ted talks and talking about these things and yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm struggling with something, and that's that's just being human. Like we don't just reach the other side. It's a constant daily practice.

You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So I get that as therapists should I.

You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So I get that as therapists should I.

Agree, But I get I that all that you're saying is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff, and I have to go get myself checked out. And I have to make sure that I'm like staying in line with what my beliefs are, and I have to make sure that I am getting help and feedback because as somebody who like you're in a helping profession. Now, as somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself. So I just wanted to wrap all this up once say thing, thank you for all of what you're doing. I will promise at one point I will finish the book.

Agree, But I get I that all that you're saying is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff, and I have to go get myself checked out. And I have to make sure that I'm like staying in line with what my beliefs are, and I have to make sure that I am getting help and feedback because as somebody who like you're in a helping profession. Now, as somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself. So I just wanted to wrap all this up once say thing, thank you for all of what you're doing. I will promise at one point I will finish the book.

But I really don't want to well.

But I really don't want to well.

But the good news is if I don't, you now have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to Matthew McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, So that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but so many of those episodes have been awesome. So if you guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, I need more of this, Like you've already heard me talk about his book, But go get the book and listen to the Man Enough podcast.

But the good news is if I don't, you now have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to Matthew McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, So that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but so many of those episodes have been awesome. So if you guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, I need more of this, Like you've already heard me talk about his book, But go get the book and listen to the Man Enough podcast.

And where else can they find and hear you?

And where else can they find and hear you?

Social media the love hate relationship I have with it, But yeah, social media, but I think the Man of Podcasts is a great It's a great place right now. You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had a deep conversation.

Social media the love hate relationship I have with it, But yeah, social media, but I think the Man of Podcasts is a great It's a great place right now. You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had a deep conversation.

With my dad.

With my dad.

Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it. I listened to it last week. I think when it came I don't know if it was when it came out. I listened to it on road hip.

Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it. I listened to it last week. I think when it came I don't know if it was when it came out. I listened to it on road hip.

It was last week. Yeah.

It was last week. Yeah.

Yeah, and we're just we're trying to go there. My wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife on coming on next week. We have an amazing. Amazing folks.

Yeah, and we're just we're trying to go there. My wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife on coming on next week. We have an amazing. Amazing folks.

The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like it was good, and what you have done is modeled.

The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like it was good, and what you have done is modeled.

Because I think a lot of people, especially.

Because I think a lot of people, especially.

When I'm in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking about how to have some of those conversations that you had, and it's so like people can't even imagine it.

When I'm in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking about how to have some of those conversations that you had, and it's so like people can't even imagine it.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I'm gonna be honest with my dad and tell him how he hurt me, but also to say thank you.

I'm gonna be honest with my dad and tell him how he hurt me, but also to say thank you.

Like what do you mean?

Like what do you mean?

And you're giving like an example of what that can look like.

And you're giving like an example of what that can look like.

And I think that's awesome.

And I think that's awesome.

We need examples right now. We just unfortunately have so few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls me on it.

We need examples right now. We just unfortunately have so few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls me on it.

You know, I have a female co host, and that's.

You know, I have a female co host, and that's.

Part of this process is we have to be willing to make mistakes. And men don't like making mistakes, especially publicly or admitting we don't know the answer. And a huge part of this and why I'm doing it, is just to show that, like we can stay in the room, like you can be told you're wrong and you could be hold you are sexist or chauven and stick and it doesn't mean that you're a bad per person, doesn't mean that you're all bad.

Part of this process is we have to be willing to make mistakes. And men don't like making mistakes, especially publicly or admitting we don't know the answer. And a huge part of this and why I'm doing it, is just to show that, like we can stay in the room, like you can be told you're wrong and you could be hold you are sexist or chauven and stick and it doesn't mean that you're a bad per person, doesn't mean that you're all bad.

Yeah that part.

Yeah that part.

We can stay in the room what you just said, Like, we can mess up and be almost called out to an extent or approached or confronted and we can still be good people, Like we can stay in the.

We can stay in the room what you just said, Like, we can mess up and be almost called out to an extent or approached or confronted and we can still be good people, Like we can stay in the.

Room with handfled you. It's not it's over for you because you're yeah, could you make a mistake.

Room with handfled you. It's not it's over for you because you're yeah, could you make a mistake.

It's oh shit, I made a mistake. I didn't think of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.

It's oh shit, I made a mistake. I didn't think of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.

It's amazing, right that we can be human beings and be messy and messed up and still have the opportunity to be friends or.

It's amazing, right that we can be human beings and be messy and messed up and still have the opportunity to be friends or.

So that's that's what we're working on.

So that's that's what we're working on.

And I you know, I'm grateful for folks like you that are doing this work, that are trying to get the message out.

And I you know, I'm grateful for folks like you that are doing this work, that are trying to get the message out.

And if you're a man listening to this, just know that.

And if you're a man listening to this, just know that.

Or if you're a woman listening to this and you want your man to listen to this, and now you're a man listening to this, just know that you have an ocean of depth in you, and you are so much more than what the world has put on you. And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and sensitivities you have don't make you less of a man.

Or if you're a woman listening to this and you want your man to listen to this, and now you're a man listening to this, just know that you have an ocean of depth in you, and you are so much more than what the world has put on you. And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and sensitivities you have don't make you less of a man.

They make you more of a man because they make you a human.

They make you more of a man because they make you a human.

And at the end of the day, our job as men, I believe, is to figure out how to be the best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with like using these ideas of what it means to be manly, to be masculine, and going in and going deep and getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are as individuals and showing.

And at the end of the day, our job as men, I believe, is to figure out how to be the best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with like using these ideas of what it means to be manly, to be masculine, and going in and going deep and getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are as individuals and showing.

Up and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.

Up and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.

Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening to that, rewind that and listen to it again.

Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening to that, rewind that and listen to it again.

That was amazing.

That was amazing.

So we're going to end on that because that was a good way to kind of close it out.

So we're going to end on that because that was a good way to kind of close it out.

So thank you for being here.

So thank you for being here.

And yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us at at You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen to the podcast Man Enough, Man Enough podcast, and thank you for being Thank you.

And yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us at at You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen to the podcast Man Enough, Man Enough podcast, and thank you for being Thank you.

We all need therapy.

We all need therapy.