Pick up the pieces of your life, pulled them back together with the word to write all the beauty and peace and the magic that you'll start too fun when you write your story.

Pick up the pieces of your life, pulled them back together with the word to write all the beauty and peace and the magic that you'll start too fun when you write your story.

You got the.

You got the.

Words and said, don't you think it's time to.

Words and said, don't you think it's time to.

Let him out and write them down on cold It's all about and write your story. Write you write your story.

Let him out and write them down on cold It's all about and write your story. Write you write your story.

Hi, and welcome back to the Write Your Story Podcast Today. I'm in the studio, well virtually in the studio with someone who needs no introduction in many ways. But this is a man who I've admired from a distance for a very long time, and I'm so grateful to get to chat with him today. He's someone that you've likely heard of and read his most popular book, which is called The Shack, and he's written many other books. He's he's been a longtime writer and a really brilliant thinker, and we're very lucky to get to hear from him today. So welcome to the studio, William Paul Young.

Hi, and welcome back to the Write Your Story Podcast Today. I'm in the studio, well virtually in the studio with someone who needs no introduction in many ways. But this is a man who I've admired from a distance for a very long time, and I'm so grateful to get to chat with him today. He's someone that you've likely heard of and read his most popular book, which is called The Shack, and he's written many other books. He's he's been a longtime writer and a really brilliant thinker, and we're very lucky to get to hear from him today. So welcome to the studio, William Paul Young.

Thanks Sally, I told you to make something up, so that's really nice.

Thanks Sally, I told you to make something up, so that's really nice.

I appreciate that, did I do? Okay?

I appreciate that, did I do? Okay?

Yeah, you're creative.

Yeah, you're creative.

Well, like I said, I'm so excited to get to chat with you today. There are so many things that I know, just so much wisdom that's in you that I know you're going to be able to share with us. I'd love to start kind of at the beginning of the story, because you have such a fascinating story to share of how you even made it into the world of publishing. So I'd love to like rewind all the way back. I know it's been like almost twenty years since your first.

Well, like I said, I'm so excited to get to chat with you today. There are so many things that I know, just so much wisdom that's in you that I know you're going to be able to share with us. I'd love to start kind of at the beginning of the story, because you have such a fascinating story to share of how you even made it into the world of publishing. So I'd love to like rewind all the way back. I know it's been like almost twenty years since your first.

Book came out, yeah, fifteen.

Book came out, yeah, fifteen.

Can you talk about like what that was like for you in the earth? First of all, what drew you to writing in the first place? What made you think I'm going to write a book?

Can you talk about like what that was like for you in the earth? First of all, what drew you to writing in the first place? What made you think I'm going to write a book?

Oh? You know, growing up the way that I did. Reading was the way to get out of my world, and then writing became the avenue of getting my inside world out. Even though I burned a lot of my stuff because the stuff I was writing was pretty dark, because my world was pretty dark. And even though I'm a missionary kid, preacher's kid, well maybe in some respects, because I'm a missionary kid preacher's kid, you know. So you know, there are a lot of things that weren't allowed, and authenticity was one of them. So a lot, unfortunately about religion is hiding. So my writing eventually evolved into gifts, poetry and songs and short stories and cards and things like that. But I didn't perceive myself really as smarter creative, and that's part of the damage. That was part of my life. So the gift part was really essential to my journey. And the other piece that's really significant is that I was reading good writers all the way up from very young and some of the classics, or a lot of the classics, you know, the Pearl or just a lot of good writers and thinking writers. And then it branched not only from fiction but into nonfiction, good writers of nonfiction. So the Inklings were a big thing, you know, Lewis and Dorothy Sayers and that group, because they not only wrote good fiction, they wrote good nonfiction. And I was getting into some of the philosophers and people who could transfer over, and then people who are good writers outside the box, some of them, you know, philosophical nihilists or whatever. You know, you had your Herman Hesses and did Arthra and Easter mysticism and things like that. So when you read good writers, I think a lot of times you learn how to write and how not to write, So that was all part of it. I never perceived myself as a writer. It was always just gifts for friends and family, And even when I wrote The Shock, it was a gift for my family, it was a gift for my kids. So I didn't have a bucket list on which becoming a published author was on that bucket list. Sure, and that was an advantage.

Oh? You know, growing up the way that I did. Reading was the way to get out of my world, and then writing became the avenue of getting my inside world out. Even though I burned a lot of my stuff because the stuff I was writing was pretty dark, because my world was pretty dark. And even though I'm a missionary kid, preacher's kid, well maybe in some respects, because I'm a missionary kid preacher's kid, you know. So you know, there are a lot of things that weren't allowed, and authenticity was one of them. So a lot, unfortunately about religion is hiding. So my writing eventually evolved into gifts, poetry and songs and short stories and cards and things like that. But I didn't perceive myself really as smarter creative, and that's part of the damage. That was part of my life. So the gift part was really essential to my journey. And the other piece that's really significant is that I was reading good writers all the way up from very young and some of the classics, or a lot of the classics, you know, the Pearl or just a lot of good writers and thinking writers. And then it branched not only from fiction but into nonfiction, good writers of nonfiction. So the Inklings were a big thing, you know, Lewis and Dorothy Sayers and that group, because they not only wrote good fiction, they wrote good nonfiction. And I was getting into some of the philosophers and people who could transfer over, and then people who are good writers outside the box, some of them, you know, philosophical nihilists or whatever. You know, you had your Herman Hesses and did Arthra and Easter mysticism and things like that. So when you read good writers, I think a lot of times you learn how to write and how not to write, So that was all part of it. I never perceived myself as a writer. It was always just gifts for friends and family, And even when I wrote The Shock, it was a gift for my family, it was a gift for my kids. So I didn't have a bucket list on which becoming a published author was on that bucket list. Sure, and that was an advantage.

You were doing that during a time too.

You were doing that during a time too.

When you know, now in twenty twenty three, moving into twenty twenty four, becoming a published author, it's just much more accessible than it was back then. But back yeah, in two thousand and seven or I don't know what year you started writing The Shack.

When you know, now in twenty twenty three, moving into twenty twenty four, becoming a published author, it's just much more accessible than it was back then. But back yeah, in two thousand and seven or I don't know what year you started writing The Shack.

Five, Well, two thousand and seven it was published. I was self published basically, So.

Five, Well, two thousand and seven it was published. I was self published basically, So.

During that time, the idea of self publishing a book was just not nearly as common as it is now.

During that time, the idea of self publishing a book was just not nearly as common as it is now.

So correct like I believe last year there were three million books published, yes, which is crazy, And there was a lot about publishing that I had never even. There was no learning curve for me because it wasn't of any interest for me, and I didn't know that the average book sold, you know, three to five thousand copies, over its lifetime.

So correct like I believe last year there were three million books published, yes, which is crazy, And there was a lot about publishing that I had never even. There was no learning curve for me because it wasn't of any interest for me, and I didn't know that the average book sold, you know, three to five thousand copies, over its lifetime.

Yeah, well, a.

Yeah, well, a.

Novel that hit fifty thousand was one half of one percent of fiction. Yeah, and I didn't know that, you know, So I was I was very naive and blind going in which looking back had its advantages because I was able to ask questions that sometimes when you come from a blind perspective, you don't know what are the normal questions to ask. Yes, so you ask the obvious to you, but not the obvious to people who've been inside of that world. One of the things that I that I like to say about the publishing world, which has been very kind to me in many respects, is that they live walking backwards. When you get in the mechanistic side of any institution, you basically have people walking backwards. They're looking back at what worked or what worked in a moment, so they're not looking forward as to what could be. And so you know, this worked, whether it's a movie or whether it's in a song, or you know. I've got friends in the music industry, and they're kind of bound to write what worked in the past, and so it really shackles their creativity to explore what might be. And I think I think everybody's a creative. Let's get that out of the way. So it's not a category of special people to me. All my kids are creative, and some are scientists and some are cops. You know, one is a scientist and one is a cop. But they're very creative, which allows them to be in the moment, creative to whatever the situation that is unfolding in front of them. So, having said that, people who work within the culture, inside of the recognized creative ventures, whether it's poetry or song or theater or movies or whatever, they're kind of pushed into a model that says, all right, this worked, And unfortunately that has dominated the Christian creative thing too. And I'm kind of tongue in cheek but kind of serious when I say that Christian music basically has two hundred and fifty words. You just have to find a way to put them in a different any different.

Novel that hit fifty thousand was one half of one percent of fiction. Yeah, and I didn't know that, you know, So I was I was very naive and blind going in which looking back had its advantages because I was able to ask questions that sometimes when you come from a blind perspective, you don't know what are the normal questions to ask. Yes, so you ask the obvious to you, but not the obvious to people who've been inside of that world. One of the things that I that I like to say about the publishing world, which has been very kind to me in many respects, is that they live walking backwards. When you get in the mechanistic side of any institution, you basically have people walking backwards. They're looking back at what worked or what worked in a moment, so they're not looking forward as to what could be. And so you know, this worked, whether it's a movie or whether it's in a song, or you know. I've got friends in the music industry, and they're kind of bound to write what worked in the past, and so it really shackles their creativity to explore what might be. And I think I think everybody's a creative. Let's get that out of the way. So it's not a category of special people to me. All my kids are creative, and some are scientists and some are cops. You know, one is a scientist and one is a cop. But they're very creative, which allows them to be in the moment, creative to whatever the situation that is unfolding in front of them. So, having said that, people who work within the culture, inside of the recognized creative ventures, whether it's poetry or song or theater or movies or whatever, they're kind of pushed into a model that says, all right, this worked, And unfortunately that has dominated the Christian creative thing too. And I'm kind of tongue in cheek but kind of serious when I say that Christian music basically has two hundred and fifty words. You just have to find a way to put them in a different any different.

It's over and over again.

It's over and over again.

Yeah, exactly. You just create a lot of repetition and you hope something sticks. But when there's only that many words, you have to go outside to have something. Most things touch you, touch you deeply. And when you look at the music scene in total, for example, you are touched by people way outside of the Christian faith per se, they have a way of being human that religious people can't depending on where they are. So the systems themselves are contrary to that kind of creativity. So one of the advantages that I had is that one I had no outcomes in mind other than to give my kids a Christmas present. That was it. And so I wasn't bound by any of the rules, which I didn't know anyway of what was supposed to work. It really threw everybody off, which I didn't know that it would. So, you know, twenty six publishers turned it down for various reasons.

Yeah, exactly. You just create a lot of repetition and you hope something sticks. But when there's only that many words, you have to go outside to have something. Most things touch you, touch you deeply. And when you look at the music scene in total, for example, you are touched by people way outside of the Christian faith per se, they have a way of being human that religious people can't depending on where they are. So the systems themselves are contrary to that kind of creativity. So one of the advantages that I had is that one I had no outcomes in mind other than to give my kids a Christmas present. That was it. And so I wasn't bound by any of the rules, which I didn't know anyway of what was supposed to work. It really threw everybody off, which I didn't know that it would. So, you know, twenty six publishers turned it down for various reasons.

But at what point in the process did you decide to try to get a publisher tell us about how that progression went?

But at what point in the process did you decide to try to get a publisher tell us about how that progression went?

At what point in the process.

At what point in the process.

Did you decide to try to get a publisher tell us about how that progression went?

Did you decide to try to get a publisher tell us about how that progression went?

So I made fifteen copies on the photocopy or at office depot in Gresham Morgan. I.

So I made fifteen copies on the photocopy or at office depot in Gresham Morgan. I.

By the way, have received this story through our mutual friends and have told this story so many times to authors I've worked with to be like, just stay the course, just write your thing, Like write that thing that's trying to happen through you, And I just wanted to tell you that that I heard this story and I've been like telling it and retelling it, but I've never gotten to hear you tell it. So I'm so excited to hear it from you.

By the way, have received this story through our mutual friends and have told this story so many times to authors I've worked with to be like, just stay the course, just write your thing, Like write that thing that's trying to happen through you, And I just wanted to tell you that that I heard this story and I've been like telling it and retelling it, but I've never gotten to hear you tell it. So I'm so excited to hear it from you.

It's like Paul the Apostle only telling out of Damascus wrote one time, he only tells it one time. Everybody tells it for him, but he tells it one time, and it's very different when he tells it. So Kim, the incredible person who saved my life that I am married to, she was the one who kept kind of pestering me every once in a while, like would you just write something that puts in one place how you think because you think outside the box as a gift for our kids. And I never felt healthy enough to do it. I had a long ways to go and a lot of crap to deal with and a lot of harm that I had to recognize that I had done in the process. And so you know, I had been on eleven year reformation process that began because Kim caught me in a three month affair with one of her best friends, and that started this. Really, you know, it was either find a way to change or just kill myself because I was afraid I was capable of too much damage to those that I about. And eleven years, and in the last four years of that is when she started saying, you know, someday it took eleven years for her and I to heal. That's the markers for me. And those eleven years ended right before the year I turned fifty. And it wasn't until the year I turned fifty that I felt like I was healthy enough to do this, to write a gift for my kids, because I was still working out how transformation would happen. And you know, it didn't involve so many things. That's a huge story. But just recently she told me she was thinking like one two pages, you know, but she didn't specify that. I thought she wanted me to write something, you know, and I like.

It's like Paul the Apostle only telling out of Damascus wrote one time, he only tells it one time. Everybody tells it for him, but he tells it one time, and it's very different when he tells it. So Kim, the incredible person who saved my life that I am married to, she was the one who kept kind of pestering me every once in a while, like would you just write something that puts in one place how you think because you think outside the box as a gift for our kids. And I never felt healthy enough to do it. I had a long ways to go and a lot of crap to deal with and a lot of harm that I had to recognize that I had done in the process. And so you know, I had been on eleven year reformation process that began because Kim caught me in a three month affair with one of her best friends, and that started this. Really, you know, it was either find a way to change or just kill myself because I was afraid I was capable of too much damage to those that I about. And eleven years, and in the last four years of that is when she started saying, you know, someday it took eleven years for her and I to heal. That's the markers for me. And those eleven years ended right before the year I turned fifty. And it wasn't until the year I turned fifty that I felt like I was healthy enough to do this, to write a gift for my kids, because I was still working out how transformation would happen. And you know, it didn't involve so many things. That's a huge story. But just recently she told me she was thinking like one two pages, you know, but she didn't specify that. I thought she wanted me to write something, you know, and I like.

Could you just make a bullet point list of like.

Could you just make a bullet point list of like.

Yeah, exactly. Well, first, here's the here's the weird part. I've never written a novel or anything of substance. So when she told me to write something, I was doing, Okay, all right, what does that mean? How about and this actually happened. I'm on the I'm on the train. To one of my three jobs, and I think, what about conversations with God? And I look up and our train is passing a movie Marquis that says conversations with God, because there was a movie that I didn't know about called Conversations with God, and and I was thinking, okay, so that's already taken. How about if I just start with a's and work my way through the alphabet of words that matter to me? And I'm thinking, like, no, that'll kill my kids. They'll they'll try to read it and go like, oh really. And so I thought, all right, I'm going to write a story. I'm going to shift the main character sideways so that it's my kids know that it's me in both cases that is, I am the main character, and I'm also the one that is killed right because of the sexual abuse in my childhood and all that. And also had a five year old niece that was killed the day after her fifth birthday. So the combination of the sexual abuse that started at age five, and so Missy Melissa Ann Phillips her name the acronym is MAP, and so is Mackenzie Allen Phillips acronym is MAP, and so it ties the two characters together so that I'm represented as and a lot about Mackenzie is true about my history. So he is struggling trying to figure out what faith even means to him after the kind of damage that he went through his childhood, and then he has this massive loss, and there's nothing like suffering that brings to the surface the things that are not resolved. Right. So by that time, in those eleven years, I had done enough work transformative kinds of things, dealt with so much crap in my life that I felt like, all right, I'm healthy enough to do this finally, and so I started writing. And it was just like I jumped in a river. So you know, I was working three jobs and it took me about six months to write the Shack, and a lot of it was on the train, and there's a lot of little peripheral stories to all that, like, for example, one day I had a Saturday where I wasn't working and Kim was gone with the kids, and I started at eight o'clock in the morning and ended at eight thirty that evening. I wrote four complete chapters, including fifteen, which is called Festival of Friends. And Festival of Friends is the only chapter in the shack that has never been touched by a rewrite or edit. It is the way that it is the day that I wrote it, which is now I realize how highly unusual that is. And Kim comes home and she looks at me and said, what happened to you? I said, you know what happened to me. I stepped out the back door and there was a river there, and I got caught in the river and it took me fifteen miles downstream and spat me out, naked and bleeding. Exactly yep. So there was this flow and the shock. It wasn't a hard thing to write because I had been waiting fifty years to give this gift to my kids, and I didn't even know it. And so you know, from day one trinity which has become so centrally essential to me. Part of it I got from my heritage. They didn't know how to talk about it, but they knew that it was important. And so you know, Papa, being a black woman that was there from day one, that was just assumed. Now you have to realize, I'm writing this for my six kids, not for the world. So I write the first draft, first complete thing, as far as I'm concerned. It's the one I gave my kids, and I made fifteen copies, so I had extra copies and fixed to the kids. Kim and I kept one and I just gave the rest of my friends and that was it. I went back to work. It did everything that I wanted it to do. I was done. But my friends started giving it to their friends and they said, we need more copies. I'm going all right, So we put a little collection together because I was I didn't have any money, and we made fifteen more copies at office Depot because there was a price break between that and Kinko's, you know, and you got a better price, a price break at fifteen. And they started giving it to their friends, and I started getting emails that I did not know how to answer because they weren't like, oh, I read your book. It was great. It was like, can I tell you about my great sadness. This book has reached deeply into my heart. This book is transformative because I've never considered that God was this good, and I'm kind of terrified that you might be wrong that kind of thing. And I had been a driver for an actual author. One Saturday, I drove him all over the place because he needed a driver. And he's the only author that I actually had any connection with. So I wrote him an email and I said, all right, how do you answer this kind of email? Because you know you're an author, you must get emails like this. And he wrote back and said, why are you getting emails like this? So I sent him an electronic copy and he did the author thing, which I completely understand. It's like, well, it might take me six months to get to it, but I promised my professor at college that I would read at least twenty pages of anything anybody sent to me. And I'm going like, I don't care if you read it. I care if this.

Yeah, exactly. Well, first, here's the here's the weird part. I've never written a novel or anything of substance. So when she told me to write something, I was doing, Okay, all right, what does that mean? How about and this actually happened. I'm on the I'm on the train. To one of my three jobs, and I think, what about conversations with God? And I look up and our train is passing a movie Marquis that says conversations with God, because there was a movie that I didn't know about called Conversations with God, and and I was thinking, okay, so that's already taken. How about if I just start with a's and work my way through the alphabet of words that matter to me? And I'm thinking, like, no, that'll kill my kids. They'll they'll try to read it and go like, oh really. And so I thought, all right, I'm going to write a story. I'm going to shift the main character sideways so that it's my kids know that it's me in both cases that is, I am the main character, and I'm also the one that is killed right because of the sexual abuse in my childhood and all that. And also had a five year old niece that was killed the day after her fifth birthday. So the combination of the sexual abuse that started at age five, and so Missy Melissa Ann Phillips her name the acronym is MAP, and so is Mackenzie Allen Phillips acronym is MAP, and so it ties the two characters together so that I'm represented as and a lot about Mackenzie is true about my history. So he is struggling trying to figure out what faith even means to him after the kind of damage that he went through his childhood, and then he has this massive loss, and there's nothing like suffering that brings to the surface the things that are not resolved. Right. So by that time, in those eleven years, I had done enough work transformative kinds of things, dealt with so much crap in my life that I felt like, all right, I'm healthy enough to do this finally, and so I started writing. And it was just like I jumped in a river. So you know, I was working three jobs and it took me about six months to write the Shack, and a lot of it was on the train, and there's a lot of little peripheral stories to all that, like, for example, one day I had a Saturday where I wasn't working and Kim was gone with the kids, and I started at eight o'clock in the morning and ended at eight thirty that evening. I wrote four complete chapters, including fifteen, which is called Festival of Friends. And Festival of Friends is the only chapter in the shack that has never been touched by a rewrite or edit. It is the way that it is the day that I wrote it, which is now I realize how highly unusual that is. And Kim comes home and she looks at me and said, what happened to you? I said, you know what happened to me. I stepped out the back door and there was a river there, and I got caught in the river and it took me fifteen miles downstream and spat me out, naked and bleeding. Exactly yep. So there was this flow and the shock. It wasn't a hard thing to write because I had been waiting fifty years to give this gift to my kids, and I didn't even know it. And so you know, from day one trinity which has become so centrally essential to me. Part of it I got from my heritage. They didn't know how to talk about it, but they knew that it was important. And so you know, Papa, being a black woman that was there from day one, that was just assumed. Now you have to realize, I'm writing this for my six kids, not for the world. So I write the first draft, first complete thing, as far as I'm concerned. It's the one I gave my kids, and I made fifteen copies, so I had extra copies and fixed to the kids. Kim and I kept one and I just gave the rest of my friends and that was it. I went back to work. It did everything that I wanted it to do. I was done. But my friends started giving it to their friends and they said, we need more copies. I'm going all right, So we put a little collection together because I was I didn't have any money, and we made fifteen more copies at office Depot because there was a price break between that and Kinko's, you know, and you got a better price, a price break at fifteen. And they started giving it to their friends, and I started getting emails that I did not know how to answer because they weren't like, oh, I read your book. It was great. It was like, can I tell you about my great sadness. This book has reached deeply into my heart. This book is transformative because I've never considered that God was this good, and I'm kind of terrified that you might be wrong that kind of thing. And I had been a driver for an actual author. One Saturday, I drove him all over the place because he needed a driver. And he's the only author that I actually had any connection with. So I wrote him an email and I said, all right, how do you answer this kind of email? Because you know you're an author, you must get emails like this. And he wrote back and said, why are you getting emails like this? So I sent him an electronic copy and he did the author thing, which I completely understand. It's like, well, it might take me six months to get to it, but I promised my professor at college that I would read at least twenty pages of anything anybody sent to me. And I'm going like, I don't care if you read it. I care if this.

Help me respond to the email.

Help me respond to the email.

Exactly what do you do about these emails? And so that was on a Friday night and I'm like, I'm waiting for him to respond to my actual question. On Monday, he phones me, which he didn't do, and he says, what were you thinking sending me that email? And I'm like, ah, just throw it out because I'm thinking he's offended. And he says, no, no, no, I can't print the pages fast enough. I'm like, what he said, Paul, I haven't read anything, and I don't know a decade where my first response is I have a lot of friends who need to read this, like right now, ten or twelve, And I said, I don't care send it to him. He said, I already did. Well. That started a conversation and he had a couple friends who didn't know each other in California. He lived in California, lives in California, and they started having a conversation about this becoming a movie. That was the first conversation pre publishing that they wanted to make this into a movie. And they later told me that if you can sell one hundred thousand copies of a novel, Hollywood will come to you about a movie. And when they told me, I'm thinking, like, there's way more than one hundred thousand people, even in Portland. What's the big deal? You know? That's how much I was know you. And then in a conversation with them, they said, well, maybe we should publish it because if we can get it published and get tow a hundred thousand and then we've got a clear track in terms of the movie. And all right, sounds good to me because here's an important piece. My identity was not tied to this book. Yeah, my identity was already securely in my relationship with God. And so anything that happened with a book, had it already did everything I wanted it to do. Yes, with the fifteen copies, well, with the six copies actually, and this is really important, as you know, Eli, you can't let your identity be inside of your writing. If you do that, you are harnessed to hidden expectations. You are you're owned by whatever you are afraid to lose.

Exactly what do you do about these emails? And so that was on a Friday night and I'm like, I'm waiting for him to respond to my actual question. On Monday, he phones me, which he didn't do, and he says, what were you thinking sending me that email? And I'm like, ah, just throw it out because I'm thinking he's offended. And he says, no, no, no, I can't print the pages fast enough. I'm like, what he said, Paul, I haven't read anything, and I don't know a decade where my first response is I have a lot of friends who need to read this, like right now, ten or twelve, And I said, I don't care send it to him. He said, I already did. Well. That started a conversation and he had a couple friends who didn't know each other in California. He lived in California, lives in California, and they started having a conversation about this becoming a movie. That was the first conversation pre publishing that they wanted to make this into a movie. And they later told me that if you can sell one hundred thousand copies of a novel, Hollywood will come to you about a movie. And when they told me, I'm thinking, like, there's way more than one hundred thousand people, even in Portland. What's the big deal? You know? That's how much I was know you. And then in a conversation with them, they said, well, maybe we should publish it because if we can get it published and get tow a hundred thousand and then we've got a clear track in terms of the movie. And all right, sounds good to me because here's an important piece. My identity was not tied to this book. Yeah, my identity was already securely in my relationship with God. And so anything that happened with a book, had it already did everything I wanted it to do. Yes, with the fifteen copies, well, with the six copies actually, and this is really important, as you know, Eli, you can't let your identity be inside of your writing. If you do that, you are harnessed to hidden expectations. You are you're owned by whatever you are afraid to lose.

And honestly, even if the outcome is beyond your wildest expectations, you won't be able to take it in or enjoy it if it's linked to your value and will.

And honestly, even if the outcome is beyond your wildest expectations, you won't be able to take it in or enjoy it if it's linked to your value and will.

No, and there's never enough. Yeah, if your identity is tied to that, it will never be enough. And that is one of the great gifts for me is that I didn't write this. Well, I couldn't have. But if I had written something that became this big before I was fifty years old, it would have killed me. Yeah, yeah, and harmed every body around me. And so when people say, you know, did this book change you? I say no, Well, it added one thing to my life, but it didn't affect my identity my worth, my value, my significance, my security, my meaning, my purpose, my destiny, my community, my love. It didn't touch any of those things, which is what I look at that now and I go, oh the grace, Oh the grace. And you know, I tell people, my people, my evangelicals, because they know about the Old Testament. I say, you know, the shock is proof that God can still speak through Balem's ass and my people will understand that story. Yeah, so we start talking about publishing it, so we get it ready. Took almost two years because I'm working three jobs and the editing process and as a side point right here, learn to love the editors. They're worth their weight in gold. And there are two kinds of editors. There's content editors and grammatical editors, and both are they are so great. When I wrote Crossroads and I sent it to both those editors, my grammatical editor came back and said, wow, it hardly had to touch anything. And I'm looking at the pages are full of red marks. You know, but from their point of view, the part and the content editor has become a friend. And you know, when I wrote Eve, we edited out forty thousand words. Wow, So understand that they're on your side, but it doesn't mean you have to believe everything they say. So it's it's this kind of a relationship, but iron sharpens iron if the angle's right. So we got it ready for publication, had the cover. We went through a bunch of different ideas for covers, got the cover and it was ready to go. We sent it to the twenty six publishers. They all turned it down. The faith based people thought it was too edgy, and the secular people thought it had too much Jesus in it. And again they're walking backwards, so they don't realize that there are millions of people stuck between Edgy and Jesus. But nobody had spoken into that space. And I didn't know I was speaking to that space. I didn't know that when you wrote human, you touched humans. If you have an agenda, especially in fiction, I understand the necessity of an agenda in nonfiction. I get that nonfiction works as a whole different set of rules and fiction does. But if you write fiction and you have an agenda, it is no longer art. It is propaganda. And so people are not attracted to propaganda, only those who've been trained that that's supposed to be what they like. And so if it has an agenda, which most Christian books do right because they if they're writing for those unbelievers, they want to get those unbelievers saved so they don't go to hell and they feel better about themselves. And that kind of an agenda driven art is not art, and so that's important. So we got it ready, they turn it down. They had one issue in common. They didn't know where to put it in store.

No, and there's never enough. Yeah, if your identity is tied to that, it will never be enough. And that is one of the great gifts for me is that I didn't write this. Well, I couldn't have. But if I had written something that became this big before I was fifty years old, it would have killed me. Yeah, yeah, and harmed every body around me. And so when people say, you know, did this book change you? I say no, Well, it added one thing to my life, but it didn't affect my identity my worth, my value, my significance, my security, my meaning, my purpose, my destiny, my community, my love. It didn't touch any of those things, which is what I look at that now and I go, oh the grace, Oh the grace. And you know, I tell people, my people, my evangelicals, because they know about the Old Testament. I say, you know, the shock is proof that God can still speak through Balem's ass and my people will understand that story. Yeah, so we start talking about publishing it, so we get it ready. Took almost two years because I'm working three jobs and the editing process and as a side point right here, learn to love the editors. They're worth their weight in gold. And there are two kinds of editors. There's content editors and grammatical editors, and both are they are so great. When I wrote Crossroads and I sent it to both those editors, my grammatical editor came back and said, wow, it hardly had to touch anything. And I'm looking at the pages are full of red marks. You know, but from their point of view, the part and the content editor has become a friend. And you know, when I wrote Eve, we edited out forty thousand words. Wow, So understand that they're on your side, but it doesn't mean you have to believe everything they say. So it's it's this kind of a relationship, but iron sharpens iron if the angle's right. So we got it ready for publication, had the cover. We went through a bunch of different ideas for covers, got the cover and it was ready to go. We sent it to the twenty six publishers. They all turned it down. The faith based people thought it was too edgy, and the secular people thought it had too much Jesus in it. And again they're walking backwards, so they don't realize that there are millions of people stuck between Edgy and Jesus. But nobody had spoken into that space. And I didn't know I was speaking to that space. I didn't know that when you wrote human, you touched humans. If you have an agenda, especially in fiction, I understand the necessity of an agenda in nonfiction. I get that nonfiction works as a whole different set of rules and fiction does. But if you write fiction and you have an agenda, it is no longer art. It is propaganda. And so people are not attracted to propaganda, only those who've been trained that that's supposed to be what they like. And so if it has an agenda, which most Christian books do right because they if they're writing for those unbelievers, they want to get those unbelievers saved so they don't go to hell and they feel better about themselves. And that kind of an agenda driven art is not art, and so that's important. So we got it ready, they turn it down. They had one issue in common. They didn't know where to put it in store.

Which is so funny that this happens in publishing a lot where publishers don't have a vision for something because there's not a section for it in the store, and you're just like, this is the obstacle that we're trying to overcome that there's no like, the book is good, but there's no section for it, so we're not going to print it. That just makes no sense, but it does, I guess sort of from a business standpoint. But then as an artist, you're just like, wait, I did my job. I made something unique enough that it hasn't been made a hundred times before, and that's the reason that you don't want to print it.

Which is so funny that this happens in publishing a lot where publishers don't have a vision for something because there's not a section for it in the store, and you're just like, this is the obstacle that we're trying to overcome that there's no like, the book is good, but there's no section for it, so we're not going to print it. That just makes no sense, but it does, I guess sort of from a business standpoint. But then as an artist, you're just like, wait, I did my job. I made something unique enough that it hasn't been made a hundred times before, and that's the reason that you don't want to print it.

It's so strange.

It's so strange.

I have found the shock in the middle of Amish romance, Amish romance section. It's great. I pictures that I found it in psychology, self help, esoteric, new age stuff, the ology. It's found a place on every kind of shelf you can imagine, fiction, fantasy, science fiction, so which is so great, it's so funny. So then we get it ready, they turn it down and I ask the question, how hard is it to publish a book? And so two of the guys friends, two of the friends in California, they had always wanted to have their own publishing company for their own stuff. So my question fed right into that. So they created one for I don't know, five hundred bucks or whatever it was. And so they created this publishing house, and I had a publisher.

I have found the shock in the middle of Amish romance, Amish romance section. It's great. I pictures that I found it in psychology, self help, esoteric, new age stuff, the ology. It's found a place on every kind of shelf you can imagine, fiction, fantasy, science fiction, so which is so great, it's so funny. So then we get it ready, they turn it down and I ask the question, how hard is it to publish a book? And so two of the guys friends, two of the friends in California, they had always wanted to have their own publishing company for their own stuff. So my question fed right into that. So they created one for I don't know, five hundred bucks or whatever it was. And so they created this publishing house, and I had a publisher.

Just like that, Just like that.

Just like that, Just like that.

Yeah, they just came out of it a good yep. So one of them found a public printer close to his house, and he volunteered to ship books out of his house at night because he was putting in people's sprinkler systems during the day. And I'm working my three jobs. And it's like, all right, we got the first print run. We ordered ten thousand copies, which we were told later is eight thousand in your garage. After you run out of friends and family.

Yeah, they just came out of it a good yep. So one of them found a public printer close to his house, and he volunteered to ship books out of his house at night because he was putting in people's sprinkler systems during the day. And I'm working my three jobs. And it's like, all right, we got the first print run. We ordered ten thousand copies, which we were told later is eight thousand in your garage. After you run out of friends and family.

Yes, it's another maybe moment when your naivete served you, because if you had been working and publishing for ten years, you probably would have ordered a thousand copies in the first.

Yes, it's another maybe moment when your naivete served you, because if you had been working and publishing for ten years, you probably would have ordered a thousand copies in the first.

Yeah, exactly. But this printer had a price break at ten thousand and they sent us eleven thousand. It's called overage right where you're allowed to accidentally print an extra ten percent and charge you for them, which, if we had a marketing budget, that destroyed it right there. And so the goal became, all right, let's see if we can sell eleven thousand copies in two years and then work our way up to one hundred thousand in five years, and then Hollywood will come talk to the guys about a movie. Now I own no part of the publishing house. That was their thing. I was just working my three jobs. They're doing the things We went through about a year and a half of editing that was before. So two thousand and seven, eleven thousand copies land in the garage. So two thousand and seven and copies land in the garage. Great, So we gave a whole bunch of way to our friends and family. Here's our genius. This is so funny. We put a website up, actually the publishing website, and it have the shack on it, only thing they had on it. And the only way you could find the website was at the back of the book. That's brilliant, isn't that brilliant? So the only place you could buy it was off the website. So our goal was, all right, in two years, let's go through eleven thousand copies. This is May of seven May, June, July, middle of August. Three and a half months later, I get a call from the guys, Paul, we need to order more books. I'm like, did we give them all away?

Yeah, exactly. But this printer had a price break at ten thousand and they sent us eleven thousand. It's called overage right where you're allowed to accidentally print an extra ten percent and charge you for them, which, if we had a marketing budget, that destroyed it right there. And so the goal became, all right, let's see if we can sell eleven thousand copies in two years and then work our way up to one hundred thousand in five years, and then Hollywood will come talk to the guys about a movie. Now I own no part of the publishing house. That was their thing. I was just working my three jobs. They're doing the things We went through about a year and a half of editing that was before. So two thousand and seven, eleven thousand copies land in the garage. So two thousand and seven and copies land in the garage. Great, So we gave a whole bunch of way to our friends and family. Here's our genius. This is so funny. We put a website up, actually the publishing website, and it have the shack on it, only thing they had on it. And the only way you could find the website was at the back of the book. That's brilliant, isn't that brilliant? So the only place you could buy it was off the website. So our goal was, all right, in two years, let's go through eleven thousand copies. This is May of seven May, June, July, middle of August. Three and a half months later, I get a call from the guys, Paul, we need to order more books. I'm like, did we give them all away?

No.

No.

People are coming to the website and they buy one, and then they come back and they buy five, and then they come back and they buy cases. I'm like, really, how many should we order? So we ordered twenty thousand, and they landed in the garage because the guy was sending him out of his house, right, they landed in the garage the day we have one case of books left from the first print run, and we got twenty two thousand. Of course, you know saverage. And so we went through twenty two thousand books in sixty days, and then we went through thirty three thousand books in thirty days. Now by this time, stores are trying to find out where this book is because people are showing up their stores wanting to buy. And we're not on anybody's system, nor is the publishing house these guys created on anybody's system. So they backtrack and find us, and Barnes and Nobles calls us up and says, hey, we're really excited about your book. Can you send us your marketing oppressiver, yeah, so that we can get on board.

People are coming to the website and they buy one, and then they come back and they buy five, and then they come back and they buy cases. I'm like, really, how many should we order? So we ordered twenty thousand, and they landed in the garage because the guy was sending him out of his house, right, they landed in the garage the day we have one case of books left from the first print run, and we got twenty two thousand. Of course, you know saverage. And so we went through twenty two thousand books in sixty days, and then we went through thirty three thousand books in thirty days. Now by this time, stores are trying to find out where this book is because people are showing up their stores wanting to buy. And we're not on anybody's system, nor is the publishing house these guys created on anybody's system. So they backtrack and find us, and Barnes and Nobles calls us up and says, hey, we're really excited about your book. Can you send us your marketing oppressiver, yeah, so that we can get on board.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're like, so as your sales team, and you're like, wait.

We're like, so as your sales team, and you're like, wait.

Yeah, yeah, can you send us Can you send us one of those so we can cut and paste it. That's what our response was. And the guy he hangs up, He just he laughed and he said, I'll call you later. And two weeks later he calls back and he says, look, we normally there's a lot of conversations happening starting with normally. Normally we charge a publishing house thirty to fifty thousand dollars a month to put their books on the front on the front of our stores nationwide, and we we only deal with publishers who have at least ten titles, but would you consider putting your book at the front of our stores nationwide for three months for free? Yeah, and so we did so. In the first thirteen months, from May of seven to the end of July August of eight, we spent less than three hundred dollars in marketing and advertising and shipped one point one million copies of The Shock.

Yeah, yeah, can you send us Can you send us one of those so we can cut and paste it. That's what our response was. And the guy he hangs up, He just he laughed and he said, I'll call you later. And two weeks later he calls back and he says, look, we normally there's a lot of conversations happening starting with normally. Normally we charge a publishing house thirty to fifty thousand dollars a month to put their books on the front on the front of our stores nationwide, and we we only deal with publishers who have at least ten titles, but would you consider putting your book at the front of our stores nationwide for three months for free? Yeah, and so we did so. In the first thirteen months, from May of seven to the end of July August of eight, we spent less than three hundred dollars in marketing and advertising and shipped one point one million copies of The Shock.

And this is all before a publishing contract. Correct, one point one million copies, before you ever signed a.

And this is all before a publishing contract. Correct, one point one million copies, before you ever signed a.

Talked with the publisher.

Talked with the publisher.

Yep, yep.

Yep, yep.

Well, the self published the publisher that your friends created.

Well, the self published the publisher that your friends created.

But not a for real one, you know. So then they entered into a publishing contract to take the book internationally and handle the distribution and all that kind of stuff. And then it kind of blew up around the world. And I remember, for the first time in years, we got to go on a vacation with the family. So we took the family to Hawaii and we're in Hanama Bay, you know, snorkeling and looking at the fish and the plant, you know, the the coral reef and all that. And I happened to look up at the beach where my kids were, and they're like this, They're like and I'm thinking shark, you know, because you know that's what you think when you're in the water and they're yelling, and so I get out of the water and they go, dad, Dad, Dad, Your book showed up on the New York Times bestseller list, And I go, it did, and they said yeah, and it showed up at number one. It did, and it was number one on the New York Times seller list for forty nine weeks in a row. Wow, it was in the top ten for like two hundred and sixties. And I think they just took it off because they're tired of.

But not a for real one, you know. So then they entered into a publishing contract to take the book internationally and handle the distribution and all that kind of stuff. And then it kind of blew up around the world. And I remember, for the first time in years, we got to go on a vacation with the family. So we took the family to Hawaii and we're in Hanama Bay, you know, snorkeling and looking at the fish and the plant, you know, the the coral reef and all that. And I happened to look up at the beach where my kids were, and they're like this, They're like and I'm thinking shark, you know, because you know that's what you think when you're in the water and they're yelling, and so I get out of the water and they go, dad, Dad, Dad, Your book showed up on the New York Times bestseller list, And I go, it did, and they said yeah, and it showed up at number one. It did, and it was number one on the New York Times seller list for forty nine weeks in a row. Wow, it was in the top ten for like two hundred and sixties. And I think they just took it off because they're tired of.

It, and they're like, we got it again.

It, and they're like, we got it again.

So you have to understand how weird this whole thing.

So you have to understand how weird this whole thing.

Was before we go on. Do you know what the current sales numbers are? I know it's over twenty million.

Was before we go on. Do you know what the current sales numbers are? I know it's over twenty million.

But yeah, I don't know twenty so I think it's over twenty four, I think, and a whole new generation is coming into it.

But yeah, I don't know twenty so I think it's over twenty four, I think, and a whole new generation is coming into it.

I reread the book the other week, by the way, because I knew we were going to be having this conversation and I hadn't read it since I don't know, two thousand and seven or eight, and it landed in a whole like a much deeper way. I think partly because I've become a parent since I read the book. I've got two little kids, so that.

I reread the book the other week, by the way, because I knew we were going to be having this conversation and I hadn't read it since I don't know, two thousand and seven or eight, and it landed in a whole like a much deeper way. I think partly because I've become a parent since I read the book. I've got two little kids, so that.

Was part of it.

Was part of it.

And just living another fifteen years of life, really experiencing that kind of deep sadness in a deeper way, just having lost people and faced more tragedy and seeing tragedy in the world.

And just living another fifteen years of life, really experiencing that kind of deep sadness in a deeper way, just having lost people and faced more tragedy and seeing tragedy in the world.

And yeah, so yeah, it'll.

And yeah, so yeah, it'll.

Be interesting to see, like you said, a whole new generation come into it.

Be interesting to see, like you said, a whole new generation come into it.

Yeah. And here's an important point. As I look at the Shack and what it did, and also what Crossroads has done and Eve has done, etc. These things have landed in the hearts of people because these are not religious books. They're human stories, and they're honest. And I had been through enough religion. And now you have to understand, I love Jesus, and I love the Trinity and all of that, but I'm not a big fan of religion and of religious systems, and I don't have a chip on my shoulder anymore. And these are not accusations, they are observations, and they grieve me deep. Well, let me tell you just a recent story, just two days ago. I have a friend and every year I do a widow's Christmas gathering. I'm the only man they've ever invited to it, and I've done it for like a dozen years. So I get together with all these widows and it is a precious, precious time. The gal that leads this Joanne. She is a dear, dear, dear friend of mine that I have known since before Kim and I met. Kim and I have been married for forty four years now, and so we meet in a for the last few years in a church, a particular one. And she's a hospice chaplain, that's what she does, and she's in her eighties. She is one of the most kind human beings I've ever known, and empathetic and inside the sacred space of people transitioning right dying, and she has been really in the middle of it. She's had two families that are right in the middle of it. Plus her husband is in hospice and is transitioning. So she calls me a few nights ago and she is right on the edge and she begins to just weep, and she said, I just got I just out of nowhere, because our gathering is a week from a week from Saturday, and she says, I just got a notice from the church that they found out that you're coming to speak here and they can't allow it. You can't even be in the church property, and you can't be interviewed or a speaker or anything. Because you might be a nice human being, but we have to take a stand for the scripture right. And here is where the literal approach to scripture is very compartmentalized. They'll take a snake talking in Genesis literally, or God saying kill all the babies literally, but they can't take the Sermon on the Mount literally right and enemy love or kindness, which is a great sadness for me, and they are my people. They're my people, but I don't personally take offense to that at all, but it grieves me that they that they would do this to her, you know, and do They're doing it with good intentions, and I refuse to make them mine enemy, but I know I know what they bring to the table and the kind of religious trappings and bondages that blind that kind of thing. So when I wrote, I didn't write a religious book. I didn't even write a Christian book because because Christian.

Yeah. And here's an important point. As I look at the Shack and what it did, and also what Crossroads has done and Eve has done, etc. These things have landed in the hearts of people because these are not religious books. They're human stories, and they're honest. And I had been through enough religion. And now you have to understand, I love Jesus, and I love the Trinity and all of that, but I'm not a big fan of religion and of religious systems, and I don't have a chip on my shoulder anymore. And these are not accusations, they are observations, and they grieve me deep. Well, let me tell you just a recent story, just two days ago. I have a friend and every year I do a widow's Christmas gathering. I'm the only man they've ever invited to it, and I've done it for like a dozen years. So I get together with all these widows and it is a precious, precious time. The gal that leads this Joanne. She is a dear, dear, dear friend of mine that I have known since before Kim and I met. Kim and I have been married for forty four years now, and so we meet in a for the last few years in a church, a particular one. And she's a hospice chaplain, that's what she does, and she's in her eighties. She is one of the most kind human beings I've ever known, and empathetic and inside the sacred space of people transitioning right dying, and she has been really in the middle of it. She's had two families that are right in the middle of it. Plus her husband is in hospice and is transitioning. So she calls me a few nights ago and she is right on the edge and she begins to just weep, and she said, I just got I just out of nowhere, because our gathering is a week from a week from Saturday, and she says, I just got a notice from the church that they found out that you're coming to speak here and they can't allow it. You can't even be in the church property, and you can't be interviewed or a speaker or anything. Because you might be a nice human being, but we have to take a stand for the scripture right. And here is where the literal approach to scripture is very compartmentalized. They'll take a snake talking in Genesis literally, or God saying kill all the babies literally, but they can't take the Sermon on the Mount literally right and enemy love or kindness, which is a great sadness for me, and they are my people. They're my people, but I don't personally take offense to that at all, but it grieves me that they that they would do this to her, you know, and do They're doing it with good intentions, and I refuse to make them mine enemy, but I know I know what they bring to the table and the kind of religious trappings and bondages that blind that kind of thing. So when I wrote, I didn't write a religious book. I didn't even write a Christian book because because Christian.

Christian publishers were like, no, no for us.

Christian publishers were like, no, no for us.

Yeah, no, God is a black woman. Uh huh, right, yeah, And I tell people, well, I could have suppose I could have used a metaphor write out of scripture and God could have come as a big hen, but I just didn't. I just don't think it would have done the same thing, right, Yeah, And people who are literal are literalists have a real problem with metaphor anyway, and with genre, different kinds of genre. So my story is about all that is unusual and I mean really really strange. But the book has become a watershed piece for what is happening in the world. And I made fifteen copies it off as depot from my kids, and the kinds of things that have happened around this are absolutely miraculous on so many, so many levels. And the part of the beauty is fifteen copies did everything I ever wanted it to do. Yes, And so I'm watching this like everybody else, And as far as far as what is happening, it as much surreal today as it's ever been. And I'm cheering from the cheap seats, you know. And so yeah, I've been pulled into an awful lot of conversations. Oh I told you that the book had nothing to do with all this major stuff in my life, but it did give me a gift that I didn't see coming.

Yeah, no, God is a black woman. Uh huh, right, yeah, And I tell people, well, I could have suppose I could have used a metaphor write out of scripture and God could have come as a big hen, but I just didn't. I just don't think it would have done the same thing, right, Yeah, And people who are literal are literalists have a real problem with metaphor anyway, and with genre, different kinds of genre. So my story is about all that is unusual and I mean really really strange. But the book has become a watershed piece for what is happening in the world. And I made fifteen copies it off as depot from my kids, and the kinds of things that have happened around this are absolutely miraculous on so many, so many levels. And the part of the beauty is fifteen copies did everything I ever wanted it to do. Yes, And so I'm watching this like everybody else, And as far as far as what is happening, it as much surreal today as it's ever been. And I'm cheering from the cheap seats, you know. And so yeah, I've been pulled into an awful lot of conversations. Oh I told you that the book had nothing to do with all this major stuff in my life, but it did give me a gift that I didn't see coming.

It is the gift, and it's been a gift to me and to my family and to my friends. It's an invitation to walk on the holy ground of other people's stories. The beauty of fiction, if it's art.

It is the gift, and it's been a gift to me and to my family and to my friends. It's an invitation to walk on the holy ground of other people's stories. The beauty of fiction, if it's art.

Is that it creates more space on the inside than it uses on the outside, and people can now hear for themselves and see for themselves things that I didn't write. Like you said, you know that you just read it again and there were things that it that it touched in you that didn't the first time. And people go like I've I've got friends who've read it a dozen times and they go, I didn't see this. I didn't see this. How can that be? And I say, because you moved you know, the mountain, the mountains the mountain, but when you move around the mountain, it continues.

Is that it creates more space on the inside than it uses on the outside, and people can now hear for themselves and see for themselves things that I didn't write. Like you said, you know that you just read it again and there were things that it that it touched in you that didn't the first time. And people go like I've I've got friends who've read it a dozen times and they go, I didn't see this. I didn't see this. How can that be? And I say, because you moved you know, the mountain, the mountains the mountain, but when you move around the mountain, it continues.

To look different, It looks different from each angle. Yeah.

To look different, It looks different from each angle. Yeah.

Absolutely, that's the beauty of fiction. You know, you're creating space that people can hear for themselves.

Absolutely, that's the beauty of fiction. You know, you're creating space that people can hear for themselves.

I would add to that too, it's in addition to fiction, because you made the distinction between fiction and nonfiction, but I think so many of our listeners who are trying to write a personal narrative, it operates very similarly to fiction. It's a story, so the details are not fake, you know, or or untrue. The details are true, but you're building the narrative the same way that you do with fiction. And I think the point you made about if you can enter into this without an agenda and just tell the story, then the story starts to teach you things, and what the story is teaching you, it also teaches your readers. And I think that happens almost like outside of you or without you doing anything. It's like the story starts to teach you. And I think that is true in memoir as well as fiction.

I would add to that too, it's in addition to fiction, because you made the distinction between fiction and nonfiction, but I think so many of our listeners who are trying to write a personal narrative, it operates very similarly to fiction. It's a story, so the details are not fake, you know, or or untrue. The details are true, but you're building the narrative the same way that you do with fiction. And I think the point you made about if you can enter into this without an agenda and just tell the story, then the story starts to teach you things, and what the story is teaching you, it also teaches your readers. And I think that happens almost like outside of you or without you doing anything. It's like the story starts to teach you. And I think that is true in memoir as well as fiction.

I agree one hundred percent, and that people ask me, is the shack true? And I say, yes, it's just not real, you know, and so would flip itself for autobiographical things. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's real and it's true.

I agree one hundred percent, and that people ask me, is the shack true? And I say, yes, it's just not real, you know, and so would flip itself for autobiographical things. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's real and it's true.

And it's true.

And it's true.

So that's that's a significant point. Thank you for raising that, and even nonfiction has you know, when I wrote lies Lies you believe about God, which is particularly the one that got me in trouble this week. It's apped inside of story. Story is what frames the theology. Each thing you work on will have a different it'll have a different feel to it. Crossroads was very much like The Shack in its genre and feel eve totally different. It's much more fantasy, science fiction theology, and it was It's the hardest fiction I've ever written because I had to deal with the theology that's out there and reframe it. So again, you're different. You know, when you write something that's not what you've written in the past, you've changed in the process and so you're bringing a different person to that. And let me say this, grow perfectionism.

So that's that's a significant point. Thank you for raising that, and even nonfiction has you know, when I wrote lies Lies you believe about God, which is particularly the one that got me in trouble this week. It's apped inside of story. Story is what frames the theology. Each thing you work on will have a different it'll have a different feel to it. Crossroads was very much like The Shack in its genre and feel eve totally different. It's much more fantasy, science fiction theology, and it was It's the hardest fiction I've ever written because I had to deal with the theology that's out there and reframe it. So again, you're different. You know, when you write something that's not what you've written in the past, you've changed in the process and so you're bringing a different person to that. And let me say this, grow perfectionism.

Amen.

Amen.

It's a target you cannot hit and it creates a set of expectations that absolutely bind you. So you know, people say I just can't get started, and it's like, just right, you're trying to write something perfect. Yeah, yeah, And don't put yourself on a timeline. Yeah, I've got a science fiction that's now waited for almost twenty years. And if it's if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

It's a target you cannot hit and it creates a set of expectations that absolutely bind you. So you know, people say I just can't get started, and it's like, just right, you're trying to write something perfect. Yeah, yeah, And don't put yourself on a timeline. Yeah, I've got a science fiction that's now waited for almost twenty years. And if it's if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

You know, it'll be ready when it's ready.

You know, it'll be ready when it's ready.

And there's a lot of things that I write that in the editing process. I even change during the editing process, and that's part of the editing process.

And there's a lot of things that I write that in the editing process. I even change during the editing process, and that's part of the editing process.

How do you negotiate that insight?

How do you negotiate that insight?

Because now you're a published author, I'm certain that you have publishers who are knocking on your door wanting you to what's the next thing we're working on?

Because now you're a published author, I'm certain that you have publishers who are knocking on your door wanting you to what's the next thing we're working on?

Paul? You know, like, when's the next book coming?

Paul? You know, like, when's the next book coming?

So how do you negotiate being an artist who's sort of waiting on the thing to happen, and also like being on the timeline of publishing and having those expectations and meeting the expectation of the reader, even who read the Shock and wants to know what's the next thing You're going to say? How do you live inside of that?

So how do you negotiate being an artist who's sort of waiting on the thing to happen, and also like being on the timeline of publishing and having those expectations and meeting the expectation of the reader, even who read the Shock and wants to know what's the next thing You're going to say? How do you live inside of that?

I don't. I a couple of different things. And this is for me, this is not all of this that we've talked about is for me, not for anybody else necessarily that might give a perspective, it's helpful, but long time ago, I learned most of the time to stay in the present tense, to only respond to that which is in front of me at the moment that it's happening in front of me. I'm not a future tripper. I don't create imaginations that don't exist. Right, So it's made, it's required some changes. I won't open myself up to the publishing process until I have a fully complete manuscript. I won't play the game, the gambling game.

I don't. I a couple of different things. And this is for me, this is not all of this that we've talked about is for me, not for anybody else necessarily that might give a perspective, it's helpful, but long time ago, I learned most of the time to stay in the present tense, to only respond to that which is in front of me at the moment that it's happening in front of me. I'm not a future tripper. I don't create imaginations that don't exist. Right, So it's made, it's required some changes. I won't open myself up to the publishing process until I have a fully complete manuscript. I won't play the game, the gambling game.

Where you pitch a deal with I'll write you three books if you give me X y z amount of money whatever.

Where you pitch a deal with I'll write you three books if you give me X y z amount of money whatever.

Yeah, yep, I don't do that, Yeah, because I don't think it's fair to the publisher. It's it's there, you know, they're trying to throw stuff up against the wall hope something sticks. And so what becomes most important is what do they call that? The document that you write?

Yeah, yep, I don't do that, Yeah, because I don't think it's fair to the publisher. It's it's there, you know, they're trying to throw stuff up against the wall hope something sticks. And so what becomes most important is what do they call that? The document that you write?

That document?

That document?

Yeah, yeah, that one that becomes the most important document.

Yeah, yeah, that one that becomes the most important document.

I love that you don't know what that's called. The fact that you've sold twenty something million copies of a book and you don't know what a proposal document is is like the perfect representation of the message that I'm wanting people to get from this episode.

I love that you don't know what that's called. The fact that you've sold twenty something million copies of a book and you don't know what a proposal document is is like the perfect representation of the message that I'm wanting people to get from this episode.

So that's just that's just beautiful.

So that's just that's just beautiful.

Yeah. Thanks. So I have such great relationships with every publisher that I've had that I have relationships with right now because I don't I don't hide because and we've told people. If we're going to even talk about a deal. Number one thing is relationship, Yeah, and then terms of the contract, and then any money if it's upfront. Right, those are the three things with a standard publisher. And I said, look, if we think the money that you're offering violates the relationship, it's not going to happen. So that's important. Also, people need to understand that right now, you've got your traditional publisher, you've got your self publishing, which is becoming very much more nuanced and intelligent. Right, And there's a lot of people working in that space, but the same thing applies. Be a truth teller and respond to the next right thing.

Yeah. Thanks. So I have such great relationships with every publisher that I've had that I have relationships with right now because I don't I don't hide because and we've told people. If we're going to even talk about a deal. Number one thing is relationship, Yeah, and then terms of the contract, and then any money if it's upfront. Right, those are the three things with a standard publisher. And I said, look, if we think the money that you're offering violates the relationship, it's not going to happen. So that's important. Also, people need to understand that right now, you've got your traditional publisher, you've got your self publishing, which is becoming very much more nuanced and intelligent. Right, And there's a lot of people working in that space, but the same thing applies. Be a truth teller and respond to the next right thing.

Yes, And for.

Yes, And for.

Those who are in our world, truss the Holy Spirit and don't make your decisions based on outcomes. That's future tripping, right, because that's fear driven. If you're trying to get if you're trying to get an identity from being an author, let me know how that works for you. Because those kinds of things have killed me my whole life. That's why I asked the Lord, can I can I have dreams now? Because visions have been killing me my whole life, right, Because every time I get a vision I think that I'm supposed to make something happen, and that's not you look at the whole Old Testament, but he's trying to make visions happen, and it kills them all the time and they end up with really catastrophic situations. So, like I said, don't make your decisions with an idea of an outcome that is going to give you identity, worth, value, significant security meaning purpose, destiny, community, and love. Don't do it. And I mean that will really become the crux. And people say, well, God asked me to do this, and it's like, yeah, I bet he did, because he needs to deal with your crap, your false identities, your false sense of security. You're finding security in something that doesn't even exist. So you've got a set of expectations that are driving you about something that doesn't even exist because you don't have a capacity yet to stay present to the one who loves you, and man, that's important. You've got to deal with the crap. But it's going to be that's what's going to raise it to the surface. Yeah, So publishing self publishing, there is now growing a community of publishers.