Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, and welcome back to Work in Progress friends. Today we are joined by an old friend of the podcast who is absolutely one of the most inspiring humans that I know, none other than Shannon Watts, the founder of Mom's Demand Action, which is the nation's largest grassroots group fighting against gun violence. She has gathered over ten million women from disparate geographies, backgrounds, political parties. She is known as a summoner of women's audacity, and she used Mom's Demand Action not only to fight for the future of our families and our children, but also as a field experiment for mobilizing women. She has figured out what fires us up up and keeps us engaged. And though she passed the baton of leadership at Mom's Demand Action to another leader so she could take a much deserved year off after working seven days a week, almost twenty four hours a day for eleven straight years on this, did she take a sabbatical. No, she decided to write a book. Shannon is here to discuss her new book, Fired Up, How to turn your Spark into a flame and come Alive at any age. I can't wait to hear about the lessons that she's learned, the gems that she's gleaned, and the way that she sees women as a bonfire when they gather together, work for community, and figure out what truly makes them happy. Let's dive in with Shannon Watts. Hi, my dear, and welcome back to the show.

Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, and welcome back to Work in Progress friends. Today we are joined by an old friend of the podcast who is absolutely one of the most inspiring humans that I know, none other than Shannon Watts, the founder of Mom's Demand Action, which is the nation's largest grassroots group fighting against gun violence. She has gathered over ten million women from disparate geographies, backgrounds, political parties. She is known as a summoner of women's audacity, and she used Mom's Demand Action not only to fight for the future of our families and our children, but also as a field experiment for mobilizing women. She has figured out what fires us up up and keeps us engaged. And though she passed the baton of leadership at Mom's Demand Action to another leader so she could take a much deserved year off after working seven days a week, almost twenty four hours a day for eleven straight years on this, did she take a sabbatical. No, she decided to write a book. Shannon is here to discuss her new book, Fired Up, How to turn your Spark into a flame and come Alive at any age. I can't wait to hear about the lessons that she's learned, the gems that she's gleaned, and the way that she sees women as a bonfire when they gather together, work for community, and figure out what truly makes them happy. Let's dive in with Shannon Watts. Hi, my dear, and welcome back to the show.

I'm so thrilled to be here with you.

I'm so thrilled to be here with you.

I'm just so excited we're here in person too. I feel like you and I have to so often when we want to be together figure out what city we're going to overlap in during what month of the year, and so to get you, I want to squeeze you.

I'm just so excited we're here in person too. I feel like you and I have to so often when we want to be together figure out what city we're going to overlap in during what month of the year, and so to get you, I want to squeeze you.

You're just far in a way that I can squeeze me.

You're just far in a way that I can squeeze me.

I will. I'll squeeze you again after we're done. I know this is a really loaded question these days, But how are you?

I will. I'll squeeze you again after we're done. I know this is a really loaded question these days, But how are you?

It is a loaded question. You know, I'm good. I think, as the famous activist has said, Mariam Cambay, that hope it is a discipline that's always been my mindset, that it is very easy to be cynical and therefore disengaged. If you actually practice hope, if you look around for the things that are hopeful, yeah, then you can stay engaged and you can take breaks, but come back to the work. And I think the next four years is going to be a discipline, a practice.

It is a loaded question. You know, I'm good. I think, as the famous activist has said, Mariam Cambay, that hope it is a discipline that's always been my mindset, that it is very easy to be cynical and therefore disengaged. If you actually practice hope, if you look around for the things that are hopeful, yeah, then you can stay engaged and you can take breaks, but come back to the work. And I think the next four years is going to be a discipline, a practice.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's a thing I've been I don't want to say meditating on but really thinking a lot about and trying to do so consciously is what it means to hold so many things to be true at the same time, especially when some of those things feel oppositional to each other. Things are wonderful and terrible. There is joy, there is pain. You know how you can be grateful for your own life inside the four walls of your home and also really know that the world around you needs help and figure out how to give to your point the hope, to both the joy and the hurting.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's a thing I've been I don't want to say meditating on but really thinking a lot about and trying to do so consciously is what it means to hold so many things to be true at the same time, especially when some of those things feel oppositional to each other. Things are wonderful and terrible. There is joy, there is pain. You know how you can be grateful for your own life inside the four walls of your home and also really know that the world around you needs help and figure out how to give to your point the hope, to both the joy and the hurting.

Yeah, joy, I think is a really important word. When I started Moms to Be in Action, we came together each year, all the volunteer leadership and it was a weekend for training and lifting up the stories of survivors and talking about legislation. You know, it was tough stuff, and we decided to add a dance party at the end of the weekend, and there was a lot of pushback, particularly from non survivors, who said like, is this appropriate? Are we being unserious? It ended up being the most popular part of that weekend. The lights went off, people took up their shoes, they got all sweaty, they danced, and they had joy. What is the point of activism or life without joy? And so to imagine that we're going to get through this next four years just bare knuckling it and still be able to be activists and it's just not possible. We have to look for joy and that comes in community, absolutely.

Yeah, joy, I think is a really important word. When I started Moms to Be in Action, we came together each year, all the volunteer leadership and it was a weekend for training and lifting up the stories of survivors and talking about legislation. You know, it was tough stuff, and we decided to add a dance party at the end of the weekend, and there was a lot of pushback, particularly from non survivors, who said like, is this appropriate? Are we being unserious? It ended up being the most popular part of that weekend. The lights went off, people took up their shoes, they got all sweaty, they danced, and they had joy. What is the point of activism or life without joy? And so to imagine that we're going to get through this next four years just bare knuckling it and still be able to be activists and it's just not possible. We have to look for joy and that comes in community, absolutely.

And I think that the idea that you have to bare knuckle it or you're unseerious, particularly for women, is such a vestige of patriarchy, you know, this thing that we're meant to suffer. It's why so many women get so burned out, yes, because we're told our joy makes us unseerious, unprofessional. And I love the way that, even in this break that you've taken from Mom's demand, you know, you're stepping back from running the organization, you've really leaned into your activism as a woman, having frank conversations about burnout and joy and aging and life. And it's been really beautiful to watch you put this sort of energy and specificity that you poured into an organization and out into the world for so long into you, and then by seeing you do it, I think we all feel we have permission to do it.

And I think that the idea that you have to bare knuckle it or you're unseerious, particularly for women, is such a vestige of patriarchy, you know, this thing that we're meant to suffer. It's why so many women get so burned out, yes, because we're told our joy makes us unseerious, unprofessional. And I love the way that, even in this break that you've taken from Mom's demand, you know, you're stepping back from running the organization, you've really leaned into your activism as a woman, having frank conversations about burnout and joy and aging and life. And it's been really beautiful to watch you put this sort of energy and specificity that you poured into an organization and out into the world for so long into you, and then by seeing you do it, I think we all feel we have permission to do it.

That means a lot to me. I think what I realized in creating Mom's dem in Action, which was not only the largest women led nonprofit in the nation with ten million supporters, but it also became the largest real life laboratory for what empowers women, what makes them come alive. I saw this over and over again, and you were just talking about women and suffering. What I saw so many times and even in my own life, is that women are taught to fulfill their obligations and men are taught to follow their desires. Yes, and what would our lives be like if the only question we asked ourselves was what do we want?

That means a lot to me. I think what I realized in creating Mom's dem in Action, which was not only the largest women led nonprofit in the nation with ten million supporters, but it also became the largest real life laboratory for what empowers women, what makes them come alive. I saw this over and over again, and you were just talking about women and suffering. What I saw so many times and even in my own life, is that women are taught to fulfill their obligations and men are taught to follow their desires. Yes, and what would our lives be like if the only question we asked ourselves was what do we want?

I love that you said that, because it is the emotional version of what happens to women versus men around money. If men are taught to chase and fulfill their desires, they are taught to seek and be poured in to pour into themselves. If women are taught to fulfill their obligations, they're taught to give and give and give and give and give to others. And one of the things that was the most arresting to me really starting to work on gender equity in terms of finance, in terms of access to capital. The work Nia and I do at the First Women's Bank is the data around how when women begin to accrue any version of personal wealth it can be five thousand dollars or five million dollars, they are approached to become philanthropic donors. And when men begin accruing any version of personal wealth, they get approached to invest it. So they get approached to go out and fulfill and pour into and make more. And women are asked to give and give and give and give and gift.

I love that you said that, because it is the emotional version of what happens to women versus men around money. If men are taught to chase and fulfill their desires, they are taught to seek and be poured in to pour into themselves. If women are taught to fulfill their obligations, they're taught to give and give and give and give and give to others. And one of the things that was the most arresting to me really starting to work on gender equity in terms of finance, in terms of access to capital. The work Nia and I do at the First Women's Bank is the data around how when women begin to accrue any version of personal wealth it can be five thousand dollars or five million dollars, they are approached to become philanthropic donors. And when men begin accruing any version of personal wealth, they get approached to invest it. So they get approached to go out and fulfill and pour into and make more. And women are asked to give and give and give and give and gift.

It's so interesting you bring this up because I talk about this, which is in many ways the bucket of the passion tex Because women are passionate about something, because they care about something, they're expected to do it for free. I am guilty of this me too. I worked at Mom's Demand Action. I say worked. I was a full time volunteer for eleven years. I do not take a dime. Yeah, all the money I made from my book from speeches all got funneled back into the organization. And I write about this in the book that we're going to talk about. And I thought I was being really noble, and maybe I was actually being a martin. I thought I was a good girl for doing this, and that no one could point a finger at me and say, oh, look at that woman. She's enriching herself because of you know, gun violence or all the different reasons I had for why I shouldn't take a salary, and yet all of the other, mostly men, who were working in the organization did and it set an example for our volunteers, right chapter leaders. It's all volunteer work, and so I think there's a really important conversation to be had about why do we expect women to put their blood, sweat and tears into things and not be compensated and that isn't the case for men.

It's so interesting you bring this up because I talk about this, which is in many ways the bucket of the passion tex Because women are passionate about something, because they care about something, they're expected to do it for free. I am guilty of this me too. I worked at Mom's Demand Action. I say worked. I was a full time volunteer for eleven years. I do not take a dime. Yeah, all the money I made from my book from speeches all got funneled back into the organization. And I write about this in the book that we're going to talk about. And I thought I was being really noble, and maybe I was actually being a martin. I thought I was a good girl for doing this, and that no one could point a finger at me and say, oh, look at that woman. She's enriching herself because of you know, gun violence or all the different reasons I had for why I shouldn't take a salary, and yet all of the other, mostly men, who were working in the organization did and it set an example for our volunteers, right chapter leaders. It's all volunteer work, and so I think there's a really important conversation to be had about why do we expect women to put their blood, sweat and tears into things and not be compensated and that isn't the case for men.

Yeah, it's so surreal. You know, we talked about this because you were one of my first guests in twenty nineteen, So thank you so much for having a longtime friend of the podcast. I know that I asked you then what it would be like if you could spend some time with your younger self, if you would see yourself in her, if you think she would be like I get how I turned into that woman. What does it feel like now, you know, almost six years later, after you've been through so many life shifts, when you think about maybe more than one of the younger versions of yourself that you carry with the woman you are today, what would have changed? What's the advice you might give yourself in college or yourself in middle school from this seat, at this table, on this day.

Yeah, it's so surreal. You know, we talked about this because you were one of my first guests in twenty nineteen, So thank you so much for having a longtime friend of the podcast. I know that I asked you then what it would be like if you could spend some time with your younger self, if you would see yourself in her, if you think she would be like I get how I turned into that woman. What does it feel like now, you know, almost six years later, after you've been through so many life shifts, when you think about maybe more than one of the younger versions of yourself that you carry with the woman you are today, what would have changed? What's the advice you might give yourself in college or yourself in middle school from this seat, at this table, on this day.

Oh, I love this question. So when we met for this podcast, you know, five years ago, I was in a very different place. You know, I still had young kids or youngish kids who were teens, and I was kind of figuring out who I was as an activist and what was next. And here I am now, a fifty four year old woman who's gone through menopause, who has grown children. And what is really interesting to me is that for I interviewed over seventy women for this book, and when I asked them what they were worried their deathbed, regret would be almost all of them, maybe one or two, Almost all of them said to me, I will regret not having spent more time with my children while pursuing what was important to me, which is tragic because I don't think there is a man who would have the same answer. And now that I'm on the other side of that fifty four years old, my youngest is twenty four, I can promise you that my kids have not once said to me you missed the soccer game in two thousand and two, or you didn't come to the fifth showing of my Peter Pan play. What they say is, we are so incredibly proud of you. We are so grateful you took us along on your activism journey. You gave us permission to pursue what is important to us. I think it's really important for women to remember that they are human beings before and after their children, and that you don't want to get to the end of your life and feel like you didn't burn. You want to have lived a life that is fulfilling to you, and that doesn't make you a bad parent. And so that's who I am right now, trying to tell all the women who are worried about that, who are fulfilling their obligations instead of wondering what their desires are, that you can do all of it.

Oh, I love this question. So when we met for this podcast, you know, five years ago, I was in a very different place. You know, I still had young kids or youngish kids who were teens, and I was kind of figuring out who I was as an activist and what was next. And here I am now, a fifty four year old woman who's gone through menopause, who has grown children. And what is really interesting to me is that for I interviewed over seventy women for this book, and when I asked them what they were worried their deathbed, regret would be almost all of them, maybe one or two, Almost all of them said to me, I will regret not having spent more time with my children while pursuing what was important to me, which is tragic because I don't think there is a man who would have the same answer. And now that I'm on the other side of that fifty four years old, my youngest is twenty four, I can promise you that my kids have not once said to me you missed the soccer game in two thousand and two, or you didn't come to the fifth showing of my Peter Pan play. What they say is, we are so incredibly proud of you. We are so grateful you took us along on your activism journey. You gave us permission to pursue what is important to us. I think it's really important for women to remember that they are human beings before and after their children, and that you don't want to get to the end of your life and feel like you didn't burn. You want to have lived a life that is fulfilling to you, and that doesn't make you a bad parent. And so that's who I am right now, trying to tell all the women who are worried about that, who are fulfilling their obligations instead of wondering what their desires are, that you can do all of it.

And I think it's important to realize not only to you as an individual outside of your children, your marriage, your career deserve it, but that you model it for your kids. Yes, you know. Two of the most profound parenting lessons I've been given in the last few weeks. One was on this show and one was at our home for Easter weekend with some friends. And the person who came on the show, what an insane sentence, like we've done some really cool stuff. You know you and I I know you have these things where you go. I can't believe what I'm about to say out loud. When Michelle Obama was on the show two weeks ago.

And I think it's important to realize not only to you as an individual outside of your children, your marriage, your career deserve it, but that you model it for your kids. Yes, you know. Two of the most profound parenting lessons I've been given in the last few weeks. One was on this show and one was at our home for Easter weekend with some friends. And the person who came on the show, what an insane sentence, like we've done some really cool stuff. You know you and I I know you have these things where you go. I can't believe what I'm about to say out loud. When Michelle Obama was on the show two weeks ago.

I would just open every show with that, right be like, just.

I would just open every show with that, right be like, just.

Engage you missited she was here. She said something to me when I asked her about, you know, this empty nest phase which people talk about like it's a bad thing, And I'm like, you have like a freedom nest.

Engage you missited she was here. She said something to me when I asked her about, you know, this empty nest phase which people talk about like it's a bad thing, And I'm like, you have like a freedom nest.

You taught them to fly, they flew. What are you doing in your big nest?

You taught them to fly, they flew. What are you doing in your big nest?

Now? You know, we're laughing about some things. And she said that it would be really impossible to talk about the ways that she learned to mother without lessons from her own mother, and how her mother said to her her whole life, I'm not raising babies, I'm raising adults and empowered her and her brother to feel like they could have agency, to feel like they were in control of things, you know, to learn lessons and know that they were pursuing their adult nests. And then my friend Genevieve this weekend said, the best thing you can do, especially for your daughters, is to live a full life as a woman in front of them. Yes, And so she was talking about her six year old and how she makes sure she meditates some of her daughter. She makes sure to move her body in front of her daughter. She makes sure to go over her calendar for the day the night before in front of her daughter, so her daughter sees her having executive meetings, understands it. On a Tuesday night, she has a business dinner, but she'll see her when she gets home. And on Wednesday night they'll be home together and they'll cook. And she talked about the balance because she wants her daughter to be able to do exactly what you're discussing and to always know that she can not to feel like she's starting to reclaim her time in her mid forties or in her mid fifties or in her mid sixties. Event, and it's such a generational shift because, and I don't say it critically, my mom made her whole life about me and my life, and it was a really jarring transition for her to then have me leave to go to college. I was going off to learn something, and when I left, she had to learn a whole new thing too. And we talk a lot of about out how in our adulthood together we found a different way of being. And I just, I don't know. I think it's really profound what you're talking about and what you're helping encourage other women to do, because maybe our generation gets to be the one that helps shift it for our kids.

Now? You know, we're laughing about some things. And she said that it would be really impossible to talk about the ways that she learned to mother without lessons from her own mother, and how her mother said to her her whole life, I'm not raising babies, I'm raising adults and empowered her and her brother to feel like they could have agency, to feel like they were in control of things, you know, to learn lessons and know that they were pursuing their adult nests. And then my friend Genevieve this weekend said, the best thing you can do, especially for your daughters, is to live a full life as a woman in front of them. Yes, And so she was talking about her six year old and how she makes sure she meditates some of her daughter. She makes sure to move her body in front of her daughter. She makes sure to go over her calendar for the day the night before in front of her daughter, so her daughter sees her having executive meetings, understands it. On a Tuesday night, she has a business dinner, but she'll see her when she gets home. And on Wednesday night they'll be home together and they'll cook. And she talked about the balance because she wants her daughter to be able to do exactly what you're discussing and to always know that she can not to feel like she's starting to reclaim her time in her mid forties or in her mid fifties or in her mid sixties. Event, and it's such a generational shift because, and I don't say it critically, my mom made her whole life about me and my life, and it was a really jarring transition for her to then have me leave to go to college. I was going off to learn something, and when I left, she had to learn a whole new thing too. And we talk a lot of about out how in our adulthood together we found a different way of being. And I just, I don't know. I think it's really profound what you're talking about and what you're helping encourage other women to do, because maybe our generation gets to be the one that helps shift it for our kids.

What you're talking about is leaving a legacy, and I don't think we ask women a lot what they want their legacy to be. We think of legacy as your name on a hospital or a huge endowment or a foundation, but it's not. It's simply knowing that you lived a life that is true to you. And what you're talking about is the second half of life, which my mother's generation was not expected to have. You turned forty forty five, and you were sort of invisible, and you went off and did whatever until you know the end of your life that isn't true anymore. I'm fifty four. I feel like I'm just getting started.

What you're talking about is leaving a legacy, and I don't think we ask women a lot what they want their legacy to be. We think of legacy as your name on a hospital or a huge endowment or a foundation, but it's not. It's simply knowing that you lived a life that is true to you. And what you're talking about is the second half of life, which my mother's generation was not expected to have. You turned forty forty five, and you were sort of invisible, and you went off and did whatever until you know the end of your life that isn't true anymore. I'm fifty four. I feel like I'm just getting started.

Well, also, look at your face. You have perfect skin, enviable hair like and it goes back to that thing where women and are supposed to be serious or they're just girly. Yes, I'm like, no way, I'm coming in with the hair out and the outfit on. I know all the points of this policy. We're arguing, and we're going to go lobby in DC and figure out it. We can do it all. Yes, I just think we have to give ourselves permission to actually do what we want.

Well, also, look at your face. You have perfect skin, enviable hair like and it goes back to that thing where women and are supposed to be serious or they're just girly. Yes, I'm like, no way, I'm coming in with the hair out and the outfit on. I know all the points of this policy. We're arguing, and we're going to go lobby in DC and figure out it. We can do it all. Yes, I just think we have to give ourselves permission to actually do what we want.

And to have the courage right and to ask yourself to check in regularly at all stages of your life. What am I doing? Is this fulfilling to me? Am I leaving anything on the table? You know? And I don't want to get to the end of my life and feel like I haven't burned. I mean that's the whole That's the whole thing.

And to have the courage right and to ask yourself to check in regularly at all stages of your life. What am I doing? Is this fulfilling to me? Am I leaving anything on the table? You know? And I don't want to get to the end of my life and feel like I haven't burned. I mean that's the whole That's the whole thing.

Okay. So can I ask you, because you use that phrase a lot and for people at home, what do you mean by burned? You want to feel like you haven't burned? Yes? How do you How did you select that word? And what's the ethos for you.

Okay. So can I ask you, because you use that phrase a lot and for people at home, what do you mean by burned? You want to feel like you haven't burned? Yes? How do you How did you select that word? And what's the ethos for you.

So the metaphor for the book came up because I was talking about I was at the home of an author who was helping me figure out my book after Maria Striver made the generous offer of writing about what I'd learned about women, which is sort of you know a lot. How do you boil that down? And this woman, this author, said to me, you're very fiery, like that is your personality, that is who you are. And so fire became the metaphor of the book. And when I started to think about what is living on fire, it is it is the ability to see things clearly, two specific things. What is limiting you and what is calling you? And there is a very specific formula for that that I learned in my life, but that I saw women come into Mom's men action and replicate over and over and over again. And that is what are your abilities? What are your values? And what are your desires? Because when those three things come together, you are burning. You are creating a fire in your life. And your life is a series of fires. It's not just one thing. It's not this. You know, sometimes we're sold this idea about purpose, as if we're only here for one thing, and if we don't figure out what that is, we've somehow, you know, are not living a life that is true to us. That's not true. You know, after Mom's de man action was over and for me, I stepped away in twenty twenty three, I thought, who am I without Mom's de man action? This has become my identity. And yet I started another fire. I wrote a book, I became a surrogate for Kamala Harris. You know, after this, there are more things that I want to do, and I will continue to implement that formula in order to make those things happen. And I want every woman to try this formula right now. Out in the zeitgeist, there's so much about what what are women in midlife doing? What are older women doing? Not a lot of how I want to show women, how how do you get to where these other women are that you're learning about, because you can do it too.

So the metaphor for the book came up because I was talking about I was at the home of an author who was helping me figure out my book after Maria Striver made the generous offer of writing about what I'd learned about women, which is sort of you know a lot. How do you boil that down? And this woman, this author, said to me, you're very fiery, like that is your personality, that is who you are. And so fire became the metaphor of the book. And when I started to think about what is living on fire, it is it is the ability to see things clearly, two specific things. What is limiting you and what is calling you? And there is a very specific formula for that that I learned in my life, but that I saw women come into Mom's men action and replicate over and over and over again. And that is what are your abilities? What are your values? And what are your desires? Because when those three things come together, you are burning. You are creating a fire in your life. And your life is a series of fires. It's not just one thing. It's not this. You know, sometimes we're sold this idea about purpose, as if we're only here for one thing, and if we don't figure out what that is, we've somehow, you know, are not living a life that is true to us. That's not true. You know, after Mom's de man action was over and for me, I stepped away in twenty twenty three, I thought, who am I without Mom's de man action? This has become my identity. And yet I started another fire. I wrote a book, I became a surrogate for Kamala Harris. You know, after this, there are more things that I want to do, and I will continue to implement that formula in order to make those things happen. And I want every woman to try this formula right now. Out in the zeitgeist, there's so much about what what are women in midlife doing? What are older women doing? Not a lot of how I want to show women, how how do you get to where these other women are that you're learning about, because you can do it too.

I love that We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. To your point, you know, I I think this idea, even when we talk about midlife, when we talk about older women, all of the terminology has been used to kind of shame us, even you know, you hear those things in society like, oh, well, men just get better looking with age and women just age, And it's like again, I look around at our group of friends, I'm like, I actually think we've never looked better. I think I'm way cuter than I was in my twenties. Early odds fashion was very questionable and horrible. I had a very bad haircut. We are well also same Yeah those thank god there were no iPhones. Then those pictures are buried and locked away forever. I overplucked my eyebrows for a while. I mean, just not good. And I'm excited about this fiery woman kind of iconography because what I've realized in doing this myself is we only grow in power and purpose. And I think when you have the courage to reinvent yourself or to say I'm not having a good time at this party, I'm leaving and I'm going to plan another, it can be so jarring for people because they're not used to seeing us choose ourselves. I experienced that going through a divorce. I've watched women other friends of mine experience it in that way. Leaving careers, changing careers, moving to another country, you know, whatever, it might be women choosing themselves seems like it freaks people out. So when you think about how you began to focus on this and I want to hear that Maria Shreve her phone call story. But how you began to say, Okay, I'm going to interview all these women about how they burst into flame in like the most beautiful way. How did you even really know where to start or were you Also? Do you think the questions came from you saying I'm doing this and I want to know who else is doing this? Sometimes from when I think I'm going to do something terrifying or requires so much courage, it's really helpful for me to know other people doing it. Yes, like my best friend in the world and I literally got We got engaged and then married and then divorced in the same timeline together and we were like, wow, do we just learn lessons like the hard way?

I love that We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. To your point, you know, I I think this idea, even when we talk about midlife, when we talk about older women, all of the terminology has been used to kind of shame us, even you know, you hear those things in society like, oh, well, men just get better looking with age and women just age, And it's like again, I look around at our group of friends, I'm like, I actually think we've never looked better. I think I'm way cuter than I was in my twenties. Early odds fashion was very questionable and horrible. I had a very bad haircut. We are well also same Yeah those thank god there were no iPhones. Then those pictures are buried and locked away forever. I overplucked my eyebrows for a while. I mean, just not good. And I'm excited about this fiery woman kind of iconography because what I've realized in doing this myself is we only grow in power and purpose. And I think when you have the courage to reinvent yourself or to say I'm not having a good time at this party, I'm leaving and I'm going to plan another, it can be so jarring for people because they're not used to seeing us choose ourselves. I experienced that going through a divorce. I've watched women other friends of mine experience it in that way. Leaving careers, changing careers, moving to another country, you know, whatever, it might be women choosing themselves seems like it freaks people out. So when you think about how you began to focus on this and I want to hear that Maria Shreve her phone call story. But how you began to say, Okay, I'm going to interview all these women about how they burst into flame in like the most beautiful way. How did you even really know where to start or were you Also? Do you think the questions came from you saying I'm doing this and I want to know who else is doing this? Sometimes from when I think I'm going to do something terrifying or requires so much courage, it's really helpful for me to know other people doing it. Yes, like my best friend in the world and I literally got We got engaged and then married and then divorced in the same timeline together and we were like, wow, do we just learn lessons like the hard way?

Or can we only do things together?

Or can we only do things together?

Maybe we should have gone on a trip.

Maybe we should have gone on a trip.

Would have been so much cheaper than this life.

Would have been so much cheaper than this life.

Lesson, you know, But there is something about having someone you love model that kind of courage for you, you know, make legal recommendations for you, teach you how to go get a job, or have a baby, or whatever it is. So do you think the book came from you seeking out other women doing the next stage of life? Fire building? Oh?

Lesson, you know, But there is something about having someone you love model that kind of courage for you, you know, make legal recommendations for you, teach you how to go get a job, or have a baby, or whatever it is. So do you think the book came from you seeking out other women doing the next stage of life? Fire building? Oh?

Absolutely, you know. I start with my story, and I had this experience. I lived a very me life, I call it until I was in my forties because I married right out of college. My parents were going through a horrible divorce, and so I think I was seeking out solace of my college boyfriend. I got pregnant three months later. I got pregnant three months after that baby was born. By the time I was twenty nine, I had three children. I was married to someone I wouldn't have married had I waited until I was after thirty years old. I was in a job I didn't like. I wanted to be an investigative journalist and I was doing public relations. And I found myself one day in the emergency room absolutely covered head to toe and ezema in every orifice, on my eyelids, on my ears. I mean, They're horrific. I couldn't sleep, I was miserable. I was suffering. And I tell the story of being in that office and the doctor really connecting with me, and I just had a breakdown. And I realized I was at a crossroads.

Absolutely, you know. I start with my story, and I had this experience. I lived a very me life, I call it until I was in my forties because I married right out of college. My parents were going through a horrible divorce, and so I think I was seeking out solace of my college boyfriend. I got pregnant three months later. I got pregnant three months after that baby was born. By the time I was twenty nine, I had three children. I was married to someone I wouldn't have married had I waited until I was after thirty years old. I was in a job I didn't like. I wanted to be an investigative journalist and I was doing public relations. And I found myself one day in the emergency room absolutely covered head to toe and ezema in every orifice, on my eyelids, on my ears. I mean, They're horrific. I couldn't sleep, I was miserable. I was suffering. And I tell the story of being in that office and the doctor really connecting with me, and I just had a breakdown. And I realized I was at a crossroads.

Right.

Right.

I could look at my life and the mistakes I'd made and make different choices going forward, or I could continue to live this life. And it wasn't easy to leave a marriage and leave my career and start all over again. And I'm so glad I did, because I would never have started Mom's de man action. I would never be where I am now. And so I wanted to talk to other women who had had those experiences. And I tell so many stories because I think stories are the model to help other women do these things. And so I talked to one woman named Amber Goodwin who applied to law school almost two dozen right out of college, didn't get in. Then, when she was forty years old, after Donald Trump was elected, she decided, you know, if he can be president, I can become a lawyer. So she applied again in her forties, got in, and ended up being the president of her law school and now is working to get other women of color into law schools all over the country. I talked to a woman who wanted to be an author. Because of her financial circumstances, she took a job as a gym teacher. Did that for thirty years, retired, started volunteering at an animal shelter, came up with this idea in her head of a love story between two people who meet at the shelter. Taught herself how to write dialogue, how to create a book, wrote a book, and then decided she deserved to have it published. She sent it to two hundred and eighteen publishing houses and got rejected every time. On the two hundred and nineteenth she got a two book deal and became a published author in her seventies. Wow, so that's what I wanted to convey to other women. It's never too late. You're not too old. You have something important to offer, no matter what age you are, no matter what stage of life, if you pursue it.

I could look at my life and the mistakes I'd made and make different choices going forward, or I could continue to live this life. And it wasn't easy to leave a marriage and leave my career and start all over again. And I'm so glad I did, because I would never have started Mom's de man action. I would never be where I am now. And so I wanted to talk to other women who had had those experiences. And I tell so many stories because I think stories are the model to help other women do these things. And so I talked to one woman named Amber Goodwin who applied to law school almost two dozen right out of college, didn't get in. Then, when she was forty years old, after Donald Trump was elected, she decided, you know, if he can be president, I can become a lawyer. So she applied again in her forties, got in, and ended up being the president of her law school and now is working to get other women of color into law schools all over the country. I talked to a woman who wanted to be an author. Because of her financial circumstances, she took a job as a gym teacher. Did that for thirty years, retired, started volunteering at an animal shelter, came up with this idea in her head of a love story between two people who meet at the shelter. Taught herself how to write dialogue, how to create a book, wrote a book, and then decided she deserved to have it published. She sent it to two hundred and eighteen publishing houses and got rejected every time. On the two hundred and nineteenth she got a two book deal and became a published author in her seventies. Wow, so that's what I wanted to convey to other women. It's never too late. You're not too old. You have something important to offer, no matter what age you are, no matter what stage of life, if you pursue it.

Yeah, I love that. Did you see that that talk that went sort of viral online? I feel like we have similar algorithms, so maybe you saw it as well. Of a professor, we'll have to do a little research and put it in the show notes. He gave a talk at a university. I think he's a I don't know if he's a biology teacher, essentially asking the question, what are women in their third in their last third of life? Four, and you know, the class kind of gets like and you hear the murmurs, and he says, and I don't mean that in the way that you think he said, but you know, men can be fathers into their eighties. No one judges them when they do that, by the way, but God forbid a woman in her forties as a kid. That's verse every day. But he was saying, you know, women, once you go through men a pause, you cease being able to birth a child. So societally, what are women for? And he says, you know, we outlive men almost always and by quite a long time. And essentially a long story longer I'll try to paraphrase, is that he pausits that women, as they enter the grandmother stage, whether that's you have grandchildren or you are a grandmother, in society, that we are the ones who are the wisdom givers. Yes, we are actually the teachers. And I thought about it for weeks after I watch this talk, because I thought, oh, women have actually been taught that our only value, our biggest value in society is motherhood. But actually, essentially men's only value, add is fatherhood and they can do it forever. We literally have a third of our lives where that is not our value, where we serve a greater purpose. And when he started to talk about us being the wisdom givers, the teachers, the ones who continue to shepherd's society, I was like, Oh, we've inverted our roles. There's a reason that women have been, you know, removed from so many of the holy books around the world. Right, It's that they're scared of our power. Yes, the divine veeminine there used to be the goddess for the God and they've tried to, you know, really reduce us. And it makes me feel like we're finally getting back to something as I look around at all my friends their forties to their seventies doing what you're talking about, because I actually look at women as the ones who hold the most power and the greatest ideas, and who teach the most generously and to pursue a book, a second career. Whatever it is you love feeds you as well. So I think it shifts that give give give versus take, take, take, and it actually creates a healthier cycle, something more natural that moves, you know, in and out, ebb and flow all the time. Do you feel like you've got your personal ebb and flow in a place where you love it.

Yeah, I love that. Did you see that that talk that went sort of viral online? I feel like we have similar algorithms, so maybe you saw it as well. Of a professor, we'll have to do a little research and put it in the show notes. He gave a talk at a university. I think he's a I don't know if he's a biology teacher, essentially asking the question, what are women in their third in their last third of life? Four, and you know, the class kind of gets like and you hear the murmurs, and he says, and I don't mean that in the way that you think he said, but you know, men can be fathers into their eighties. No one judges them when they do that, by the way, but God forbid a woman in her forties as a kid. That's verse every day. But he was saying, you know, women, once you go through men a pause, you cease being able to birth a child. So societally, what are women for? And he says, you know, we outlive men almost always and by quite a long time. And essentially a long story longer I'll try to paraphrase, is that he pausits that women, as they enter the grandmother stage, whether that's you have grandchildren or you are a grandmother, in society, that we are the ones who are the wisdom givers. Yes, we are actually the teachers. And I thought about it for weeks after I watch this talk, because I thought, oh, women have actually been taught that our only value, our biggest value in society is motherhood. But actually, essentially men's only value, add is fatherhood and they can do it forever. We literally have a third of our lives where that is not our value, where we serve a greater purpose. And when he started to talk about us being the wisdom givers, the teachers, the ones who continue to shepherd's society, I was like, Oh, we've inverted our roles. There's a reason that women have been, you know, removed from so many of the holy books around the world. Right, It's that they're scared of our power. Yes, the divine veeminine there used to be the goddess for the God and they've tried to, you know, really reduce us. And it makes me feel like we're finally getting back to something as I look around at all my friends their forties to their seventies doing what you're talking about, because I actually look at women as the ones who hold the most power and the greatest ideas, and who teach the most generously and to pursue a book, a second career. Whatever it is you love feeds you as well. So I think it shifts that give give give versus take, take, take, and it actually creates a healthier cycle, something more natural that moves, you know, in and out, ebb and flow all the time. Do you feel like you've got your personal ebb and flow in a place where you love it.

I do right now, I do, But I want to be clear like it does ebb and flow. Yeah, you're going to have ups and downs. Yeah, that doesn't mean you should back down.

I do right now, I do, But I want to be clear like it does ebb and flow. Yeah, you're going to have ups and downs. Yeah, that doesn't mean you should back down.

Right.

Right.

I made a choice when I started Mom'stuman Action and I started receiving all these threats that I didn't expect. You know, I had to back down or double down, and I decided to double down. And you know, I had someone say to me when I was writing this book, I wish I had had a handbook for all the blowback that I will receive. It doesn't mean you're starting a huge thing like an organization. It may be just a difficult conversation. Maybe you're getting out of a relationship, maybe you're pursuing another job. It can be personal, political, professional. But if you apply this formula and if you know what to expect, you know that you will feel imposter syndrome, that your perfectionism will get in the way, that you will start to think people don't want to hear your story or you don't have a story to tell. If you know there will be a messy middle, then you can get through it. And that is what this is really, you know, a guide for that.

I made a choice when I started Mom'stuman Action and I started receiving all these threats that I didn't expect. You know, I had to back down or double down, and I decided to double down. And you know, I had someone say to me when I was writing this book, I wish I had had a handbook for all the blowback that I will receive. It doesn't mean you're starting a huge thing like an organization. It may be just a difficult conversation. Maybe you're getting out of a relationship, maybe you're pursuing another job. It can be personal, political, professional. But if you apply this formula and if you know what to expect, you know that you will feel imposter syndrome, that your perfectionism will get in the way, that you will start to think people don't want to hear your story or you don't have a story to tell. If you know there will be a messy middle, then you can get through it. And that is what this is really, you know, a guide for that.

Wow, messy middle.

Wow, messy middle.

Messy middle can be brutal. It's hard, but you learn so much there you do.

Messy middle can be brutal. It's hard, but you learn so much there you do.

But I think you're right. A guidebook would have been helpful. You know, we bonded and became friends in activism. Yeah, I was not prepared either for not only how much the world hates an outspoken woman, a politically educated woman. Oh God, here we go. And you know, nobody tells you how to deal with the threats. Nobody tells you how to deal with you know, the blowback. And it's not lost on me that I think as an observer, you can tell me if it's correct. I think part of the reason so many people were so incensed by Mom's demand is that it was so nonpartisan. You got so many people who have been cultured or encouraged or algorithmically targeted to fight a culture war, a red versus blue, a left versus right, YadA, YadA, YadA. You got them all to say, oh, yeah, every country in the world has mental health issues. Every country in the world on par with ours, has access to the same video games. Everywhere is basically the same. When you are in a similar country of you know, population and economic means and all the things. The only difference here is the access to the guns. It's the guns, It's not anything else. And I say, this is a kid who got her first gun for her twelfth birthday. You know, people are always very shocked when they find out that, like they're liberal Hollywood blah blah blah. Person they want to scream about is like actually a sharpshooter. Yeah, we can mean many things, guys. It's the guns. Yes. And when you had moms from San Francisco to Oakland, to Texas to New Mexico to Florida to Northern Vermont rallying together, I think you really scared a lot of people because they knew that the truth was more powerful than the pr Oh, the facts are more powerful than any money the gun lobby spends. And you can't unsee something once you know it. And yet we find ourselves back here in this dystopian Trump two point oh Land, How I know you took a break which you deserved. You know, you did the most wonderful thing that I think women do, which is they build power and then share it. You say, I'm going to run Mom's demand until the day I die because it's fine, you pass the baton, but from outside, still having built it and being so close to it, how do you? How do you want to speak to those women about what we do now? Because it feels like it for all this progress we've made, the people with the most money who want the progress for themselves and not for any of us, are winning in this moment, and they're just they're lighting everything on fire, and not in a good way, not in a fired up way, in like I've burdened all burnt, all down, nightmare kind of way. So what do you if you were still at the home of Mom's demand, or if you were just going to talk to us I don't know on Instagram on Saturday morning, like what would you? What do you want to say to the women who go? But Shannon, what do we do now? You know?

But I think you're right. A guidebook would have been helpful. You know, we bonded and became friends in activism. Yeah, I was not prepared either for not only how much the world hates an outspoken woman, a politically educated woman. Oh God, here we go. And you know, nobody tells you how to deal with the threats. Nobody tells you how to deal with you know, the blowback. And it's not lost on me that I think as an observer, you can tell me if it's correct. I think part of the reason so many people were so incensed by Mom's demand is that it was so nonpartisan. You got so many people who have been cultured or encouraged or algorithmically targeted to fight a culture war, a red versus blue, a left versus right, YadA, YadA, YadA. You got them all to say, oh, yeah, every country in the world has mental health issues. Every country in the world on par with ours, has access to the same video games. Everywhere is basically the same. When you are in a similar country of you know, population and economic means and all the things. The only difference here is the access to the guns. It's the guns, It's not anything else. And I say, this is a kid who got her first gun for her twelfth birthday. You know, people are always very shocked when they find out that, like they're liberal Hollywood blah blah blah. Person they want to scream about is like actually a sharpshooter. Yeah, we can mean many things, guys. It's the guns. Yes. And when you had moms from San Francisco to Oakland, to Texas to New Mexico to Florida to Northern Vermont rallying together, I think you really scared a lot of people because they knew that the truth was more powerful than the pr Oh, the facts are more powerful than any money the gun lobby spends. And you can't unsee something once you know it. And yet we find ourselves back here in this dystopian Trump two point oh Land, How I know you took a break which you deserved. You know, you did the most wonderful thing that I think women do, which is they build power and then share it. You say, I'm going to run Mom's demand until the day I die because it's fine, you pass the baton, but from outside, still having built it and being so close to it, how do you? How do you want to speak to those women about what we do now? Because it feels like it for all this progress we've made, the people with the most money who want the progress for themselves and not for any of us, are winning in this moment, and they're just they're lighting everything on fire, and not in a good way, not in a fired up way, in like I've burdened all burnt, all down, nightmare kind of way. So what do you if you were still at the home of Mom's demand, or if you were just going to talk to us I don't know on Instagram on Saturday morning, like what would you? What do you want to say to the women who go? But Shannon, what do we do now? You know?

I knew intuitively the day after the santy Hook School shooting that women were the secret sauce to taking on the largest, most powerful, wealthy special interests that's ever existed, right the gun lobby. And I simply put out a plea on Facebook that women come together like they did through Mothers against Drunk Driving, which was so incredibly influential to me as a teen in the eighties. They made unbelievable progress in under a decade. So I thought, okay, we need women to take on the gun lobby. And I was right. This was the gun lobby's worst nightmare, that women would rise up against them to protect their children in their communities because women are so powerful. Yes, we only hold twenty five percent of the five hundred thousand elected positions in this country. We are less than five percent of fortunate one thousand CEOs, so we're not pulling the levers of power that really make the policies that protect our families and communities. But we're the majority of the voting population and we can use our voices. So when you combine voices and votes, we're unstoppable. And so that is why when millions of women began to show up in their state houses, in their city councils, even at Congress, we went from a corp of all Democrats in Congress having an A rating from the NA to none. Now it's a seismic shift in American politics. It's how we passed the first federal gun safety legislation in twenty two in a generation and that is a formula just like living on fire, right, that is the formula for successful activism. Women have immense power when we come together in community. And I talk about this in the book is building a bonfire? You know, you take your flame and you put it with other women's and it just becomes this huge, unstoppable fire that you know, shows you what you want to do, but also shows you the people you want to do it with. And that is what Moms to Men action became. And so I think in this moment, it is so we're all talking about community. It is so important to find your community. It doesn't have to be gun safety activism, it doesn't even have to be activism, but find your community and find your strength because that is what we need to get us through the next four years. And I will just say that as an Emerge America board member, this is an organization that trains women to run profice. I think there's a moral imperative for women to run profice in this country. Yes, I don't care if it's county corner, I don't care if it's city's sheriff. It can be a very small elected officials office. But if we are able to do it. We need to do it because only having twenty five percent of the elected positions. You know, the saying is when you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu. Many women right now in this country are the main course.

I knew intuitively the day after the santy Hook School shooting that women were the secret sauce to taking on the largest, most powerful, wealthy special interests that's ever existed, right the gun lobby. And I simply put out a plea on Facebook that women come together like they did through Mothers against Drunk Driving, which was so incredibly influential to me as a teen in the eighties. They made unbelievable progress in under a decade. So I thought, okay, we need women to take on the gun lobby. And I was right. This was the gun lobby's worst nightmare, that women would rise up against them to protect their children in their communities because women are so powerful. Yes, we only hold twenty five percent of the five hundred thousand elected positions in this country. We are less than five percent of fortunate one thousand CEOs, so we're not pulling the levers of power that really make the policies that protect our families and communities. But we're the majority of the voting population and we can use our voices. So when you combine voices and votes, we're unstoppable. And so that is why when millions of women began to show up in their state houses, in their city councils, even at Congress, we went from a corp of all Democrats in Congress having an A rating from the NA to none. Now it's a seismic shift in American politics. It's how we passed the first federal gun safety legislation in twenty two in a generation and that is a formula just like living on fire, right, that is the formula for successful activism. Women have immense power when we come together in community. And I talk about this in the book is building a bonfire? You know, you take your flame and you put it with other women's and it just becomes this huge, unstoppable fire that you know, shows you what you want to do, but also shows you the people you want to do it with. And that is what Moms to Men action became. And so I think in this moment, it is so we're all talking about community. It is so important to find your community. It doesn't have to be gun safety activism, it doesn't even have to be activism, but find your community and find your strength because that is what we need to get us through the next four years. And I will just say that as an Emerge America board member, this is an organization that trains women to run profice. I think there's a moral imperative for women to run profice in this country. Yes, I don't care if it's county corner, I don't care if it's city's sheriff. It can be a very small elected officials office. But if we are able to do it. We need to do it because only having twenty five percent of the elected positions. You know, the saying is when you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu. Many women right now in this country are the main course.

Yes, and now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. Well. I saw a statistic today. The administration is saying they want to give baby bonuses, they want more children born in America. And I'm like, oh, you mean you want to give families a baby bonus that's over one thousand dollars less than the child tax credit that you're party killed that lifted fifty percent of all families in poverty out of poverty. Interesting, So you want women to have more babies in a country where you are making it impossible to access maternal healthcare, where you're defunding cancer research for children, where you are trying to take away women's rights to IVF so if they actually want to have children, they can't. And the list just goes on. You're defunding education, You want everybody to have guns. Why do you think people maybe are scared to bring children into this world? Weird? It's so crazy making. And I think it's why it's so important what you're putting in the book and also what you're reminding us out in the world is to see and identify the problem and then congregate in community to figure out how to fix it. And you are right. One of the ways we have to fix it is by taking those seats women running for office, whether it's you know, Emerge America or Emily's List or any of these groups that is helping she should run. Yes, helping run for something. Oh, that really feels like a shift that has been a long time coming from your vantage point. Do you see more women in your peer group? You know, women whose kids are off in college and so they're beginning to reclaim more of their daily time. Do you see more women talking about it, thinking about it, gearing up for it?

Yes, and now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. Well. I saw a statistic today. The administration is saying they want to give baby bonuses, they want more children born in America. And I'm like, oh, you mean you want to give families a baby bonus that's over one thousand dollars less than the child tax credit that you're party killed that lifted fifty percent of all families in poverty out of poverty. Interesting, So you want women to have more babies in a country where you are making it impossible to access maternal healthcare, where you're defunding cancer research for children, where you are trying to take away women's rights to IVF so if they actually want to have children, they can't. And the list just goes on. You're defunding education, You want everybody to have guns. Why do you think people maybe are scared to bring children into this world? Weird? It's so crazy making. And I think it's why it's so important what you're putting in the book and also what you're reminding us out in the world is to see and identify the problem and then congregate in community to figure out how to fix it. And you are right. One of the ways we have to fix it is by taking those seats women running for office, whether it's you know, Emerge America or Emily's List or any of these groups that is helping she should run. Yes, helping run for something. Oh, that really feels like a shift that has been a long time coming from your vantage point. Do you see more women in your peer group? You know, women whose kids are off in college and so they're beginning to reclaim more of their daily time. Do you see more women talking about it, thinking about it, gearing up for it?

I do? You know? Women don't not live on fire because they're weak. It's because they're wise. They see the system is set up for them to fail and the only way to fix that is to find the courage to step out into the arena. And you know this formula I was talking about your abilities, your values, and your desires. That is different for every single person. My abilities were my communication skills. I had been in comms for almost twenty years before I started Mom's Demand Action. My values were protecting my family and my community, and my desire was to be an activist. I had grown up in Rochester, New York, where I was taught that people I carry at Tubman and Susan b. Anthony and I think she's been canceled now. But like all these different activists right who sort of were women at the forefront, and each one of us has that different recipe, the different formula that will come into play.

I do? You know? Women don't not live on fire because they're weak. It's because they're wise. They see the system is set up for them to fail and the only way to fix that is to find the courage to step out into the arena. And you know this formula I was talking about your abilities, your values, and your desires. That is different for every single person. My abilities were my communication skills. I had been in comms for almost twenty years before I started Mom's Demand Action. My values were protecting my family and my community, and my desire was to be an activist. I had grown up in Rochester, New York, where I was taught that people I carry at Tubman and Susan b. Anthony and I think she's been canceled now. But like all these different activists right who sort of were women at the forefront, and each one of us has that different recipe, the different formula that will come into play.

You know.

You know.

I've seen women come into Mom's de Maan Action and they decided to be a data lead because maybe they were an accountant in their professional life, and they come into the organization and they're surrounded by other supportive women and they think, wow, I'm really good at being a data lead. I'm really doing a great job at this. Maybe I'll try to be the chapter leader. And then they become the chapter leader and they say, wow, you know, I'm really smart and I'm getting people to feel good about themselves and to make progress. Maybe I will run for city council and they do and they win, and it is just really those it's like taking the next buyery step over and over again.

I've seen women come into Mom's de Maan Action and they decided to be a data lead because maybe they were an accountant in their professional life, and they come into the organization and they're surrounded by other supportive women and they think, wow, I'm really good at being a data lead. I'm really doing a great job at this. Maybe I'll try to be the chapter leader. And then they become the chapter leader and they say, wow, you know, I'm really smart and I'm getting people to feel good about themselves and to make progress. Maybe I will run for city council and they do and they win, and it is just really those it's like taking the next buyery step over and over again.

Yeah. So, coming into writing the book, you dropped this gem earlier that you got a phone call from Maria Shriver? Did you have a book in the works, and she heard about it? What happened? Tell me that story, because that feels very cool.

Yeah. So, coming into writing the book, you dropped this gem earlier that you got a phone call from Maria Shriver? Did you have a book in the works, and she heard about it? What happened? Tell me that story, because that feels very cool.

I had just step back from Moms to Man Action, and I thought, Okay, I'm going to take a year off figure out what's next. You know, I'd been working seven days a week as a full time volunteer for over a decade and Maria Shriver had DMed me out of the blue on Instagram and said, can I have your phone number? And you know, this was a few weeks went by. I'm running on the treadmill and I looked down on my phone and it says Maria Shriver, And obviously I get off the treadmill and answer the phone, and she says, you know, I so admire your voice. I think you have a lot to tell women. I have a book imprint called Open Field. Would you write a book for me? Which you know is a very big question, like you can write about whatever you want? And I said yes. You know I could have said no. I could have said I'm not the right person, I'm not an author, I'm not I don't have anything to tell. But I knew that wasn't true, you know. I knew that I did have something to say to women that I had learned so much through my leadership of Moms U Man Action, and then I wanted to empower other women, especially women my age, to keep doing things till their end, till the end of their life. And so I said yes. And I had written a book before, but I had written it with a co author, and it was very fact based about gun violence. This was something different. This was my story and the stories of other women. And I'm not going to say it wasn't hard. You know. There were days when I thought, why did I take this on? Why am I not on vacation? What if this isn't good? What if people don't like it? And I had to push through all those feelings, all these stories, these narratives that I was making up and telling myself. And I've gotten such incredible feedback. I mean, the poet Maggie Smith blurbed this book and she was reading it and she would email me and say, I wish I had had this book when I was getting divorced. So many women who I admire have supported the book, are supporting the book, women like you, and I'm just so glad I said yes to Maurice Shriver, a perfect stranger who has become a friend and is interviewed in the book.

I had just step back from Moms to Man Action, and I thought, Okay, I'm going to take a year off figure out what's next. You know, I'd been working seven days a week as a full time volunteer for over a decade and Maria Shriver had DMed me out of the blue on Instagram and said, can I have your phone number? And you know, this was a few weeks went by. I'm running on the treadmill and I looked down on my phone and it says Maria Shriver, And obviously I get off the treadmill and answer the phone, and she says, you know, I so admire your voice. I think you have a lot to tell women. I have a book imprint called Open Field. Would you write a book for me? Which you know is a very big question, like you can write about whatever you want? And I said yes. You know I could have said no. I could have said I'm not the right person, I'm not an author, I'm not I don't have anything to tell. But I knew that wasn't true, you know. I knew that I did have something to say to women that I had learned so much through my leadership of Moms U Man Action, and then I wanted to empower other women, especially women my age, to keep doing things till their end, till the end of their life. And so I said yes. And I had written a book before, but I had written it with a co author, and it was very fact based about gun violence. This was something different. This was my story and the stories of other women. And I'm not going to say it wasn't hard. You know. There were days when I thought, why did I take this on? Why am I not on vacation? What if this isn't good? What if people don't like it? And I had to push through all those feelings, all these stories, these narratives that I was making up and telling myself. And I've gotten such incredible feedback. I mean, the poet Maggie Smith blurbed this book and she was reading it and she would email me and say, I wish I had had this book when I was getting divorced. So many women who I admire have supported the book, are supporting the book, women like you, and I'm just so glad I said yes to Maurice Shriver, a perfect stranger who has become a friend and is interviewed in the book.

That's so cool. That's just so cool. Something that you've also talked about, which I really cherish because it's been my journey as well, seems common in our kind of overlapping generation. You've opened up a lot about your struggle with untreated ADHD getting diagnosed later in life. You and me both sister, and in one way, I feel so relieved to understand that some of what is hard for me is not a personal failing. It's literally how my brain is wired. It also is probably part of the reason I can go through policies so quickly, because I have a weird memory for that kind of stuff. Don't ask me what day it is, anytime, any anywhere. What was the kind of push pull, the relief and the Oh I wish I'd understood this earlier for you.

That's so cool. That's just so cool. Something that you've also talked about, which I really cherish because it's been my journey as well, seems common in our kind of overlapping generation. You've opened up a lot about your struggle with untreated ADHD getting diagnosed later in life. You and me both sister, and in one way, I feel so relieved to understand that some of what is hard for me is not a personal failing. It's literally how my brain is wired. It also is probably part of the reason I can go through policies so quickly, because I have a weird memory for that kind of stuff. Don't ask me what day it is, anytime, any anywhere. What was the kind of push pull, the relief and the Oh I wish I'd understood this earlier for you.

You know what's interesting is I was a speaker at a conference a couple of weeks ago in Orlando, and I was asked by the moderator, what did you learn while interviewing women for this book? And I said over a third of them had ADHD, either undiagnosed or late in life diagnosed, and that it was the secret sauce for becoming who they are. Now do you know that the entire audience began to cheer and some of the women started crying, Like that touched women so much, this phenomenon of ADHD. I was actually diagnosed when I was fourteen, really in the eighties, So that tells you how bad my ADHD was. Wow, because women, girls were not being diagnosed in the eighties.

You know what's interesting is I was a speaker at a conference a couple of weeks ago in Orlando, and I was asked by the moderator, what did you learn while interviewing women for this book? And I said over a third of them had ADHD, either undiagnosed or late in life diagnosed, and that it was the secret sauce for becoming who they are. Now do you know that the entire audience began to cheer and some of the women started crying, Like that touched women so much, this phenomenon of ADHD. I was actually diagnosed when I was fourteen, really in the eighties, So that tells you how bad my ADHD was. Wow, because women, girls were not being diagnosed in the eighties.

Oh uncommon, I mean then, and especially thing for young women now.

Oh uncommon, I mean then, and especially thing for young women now.

And I had all the comorbidities. I had OCD, I had anxiety, I had skin picking, I had nervous ticks. Like I was, you know, a kid who was really struggling. And I started to fail out of school in the eighth grade and that's when I got diagnosed. But there was such a stigma around medication that I was never medicated, and so it didn't get better. It got worse right throughout my lifetime. And it wasn't until I was in my mid twenties, and I think my brain was fully developed that I would learned workarounds for things that come intuitively to other people. But it was a real struggle. I tried medicating myself when I went through menopause because I saw the symptoms becoming so much more severe, and it just didn't work for me. I think my brain is so now solidified in the way I do things to get around the ADHD obstacles. But this is a real thing, particularly for gen X women, who you know. I have a lot of resentment for the way that my parents handled it, the school system handled it. I was treated as someone who was weird or different or unsuccessful, right like, like I was always destined to be a loser. I tell this story of I was in Catholic school and there was an English assignment sent home and it was compare your daughter to someone in history. I was in an all girls school and people would come in and their parents would have compared them to Joan of Arc or you know, the Virgin Mother. My parents compared me to Willie Lowman, the tragic figure and death of a salesman. Oh my god. Because I was kind of a loser, right like, I had potential, but I couldn't live up to it, and that's how I felt my whole life. And my parents, you know, I don't mean to be too harsh on them, but you know, as an only child, and they they didn't know why I was so different. But I'm so grateful now that I had that experience, and it certainly prepared me to be the parent of three of my children have ADHD, right, and so I think that that made me who I am. And you were talking about hyperfocus. How else could I have worked on gun mine with prevention seven days a week, twelve hours a day for eleven years only because of my ADHD.