Work in Progress with Sophia BushTrue talent speaks for itself, and Micael Urie has it in droves! From playing fan favorite catty assistant Marc St. James on "Ugly Betty" to playing a hilarious narcissistic attorney in Apple TV+'s "Shrinking" to entertaining fans with his podcast and putting queer stories front and center with Pride Plays!
Actor, producer, writer, and director Michael Urie joins Sophia to chat about his acting journey, including a fascinating chat about the interesting relationship actors have with the camera, what he has learned from Harrison Ford on the set of "Shrinking," what it was like hosting the GLAAD awards, and working (playing) with his "Ugly Betty" co-star and real-life friend Becki Newton on the rewatch podcast "Still Ugly!"
Plus, he shares the backstory on co-founding Pride Plays and putting queer stories center stage, what his younger self would think of his career, and what he believes is the greatest show ever!
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress high wib Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my favorite co stars ever, actor, producer, director, and host, Michael Uri, who you know from bringing stories to life on screen, on stage, and behind the scenes. He was everybody's favorite Mark Saint James on ABC's Ugly Betty. He's been on Modern Family, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Younger, Workaholics, Partners with Me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway I don't know. Ever, Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics Choice Award. He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school humor back not only to the screen but to the airwaves with his Ugly Betty co star Becky Newton and their Rewatch podcast. Still Ugly and one of my very favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare time JK. He has none is He is the co founder of New York City's Pride Plays, which celebrate and elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking the Pride Plays to Washington, d C. For World Pride, and I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation, lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with Michael Ary.
I was trying to remember, is that right? We were the first gay kiss.
On CBS and it was a peck.
Just pack.
It was a little smitchie. It's a little very cute.
So cute.
But what I was remembering is you never tell people you made out Superman.
We didn't really make up, but yes, I do. OK. The answer is one yes too. We didn't really make out. It was always just a peck and it was never very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about as I walked over today was you and he had a sexy kiss.
That's right? That like the David's nightmare?
Yeah it was?
Was it your nightmare?
Was it a nightmare? Like? Just oh yeah? It was like a test. It was like let's see if I feel anything. Oh yeah, I don't feel anything. Let me just try one more time and they kiss again. It was one of those was it?
I thought it was like a hallucination.
Maybe that was it? Now that you're saying that anyway, anyway, I remember when did we watch our show? Also, that's our that's our next podcast. But that's what I like. I remember, Oh yeah, they let that. They let the like the beautiful straight characters. Well they let the straight woman kiss a gay man the hot game.
But not the gay man's partner.
We had to just peck. Do you guys have this like sexy, romantic, steamy kiss woo? Yeah?
I remember because I got to be on safetand.
Oh yeah, oh my.
Was supposed to be fabulous, but like more than once it blew into my mouth and I was like, I'm just not hurt. I don't have the like. I'm more like, you know, I'm a little more of a hobbit than a pop star.
But here we are hobbit hobbit it around.
A little bit.
Happy, happy hobbit. We had good times though.
Happy Easter.
I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think about us all the time because Stage nineteen, I think, is where we were, and it's right by the gym, and I go there all the time and I always think about us.
To shoot a show on that lot, Warner Brothers, Law Universal law I'm still trying to manifest it.
Again the best every time I come out of a stage at Warner Brothers and you see those look Have you watched the studio the new Apple Show?
Yeah, it's on my list as it could.
It's really cool. It's like the craft is incredible, meaning.
How they shoot. Yes, okay, it's.
Gorgeous and like most it feels like it's one shot. Really yeah, And it's so like fast paced, and there's dozens of extras everywhere, and it's it's all on Warner Brothers, so that you see the lot all the time and it's it's very cool.
Do you love is there really? I feel like there is a viewer for me a difference in the sort of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh and so doing shrinking do you do you just sort of is it palpable for you?
I mean Bill Lawrence? Yes, the answer is yes. Like Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool and he he runs such a it's like an asshole free zone. There's nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun kind man. He comes on set and and you know, he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous. It makes everyone everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on set because we know, like, oh, he's gonna, you know whatever, even if it's great, he's going to make it better. Even if what we're doing is already great, he's going to make it better. And and he's so busy as so many things going on. He's like doing ten shows at once. So smart, and he's so smart, and he surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have been with him for decades.
I love that.
Yeah, you know, you always know when you meet somebody or work with somebody and they've got the same people around them and have for a long time. Yes, that's that's I think a really good sign.
I've had this experience this year because listen, I love what we do, and sometimes set is not a nice place to be and we've all had the best and the worst of it.
Yeah, And.
The revelation for me this year of working on a Shonda Rhime set has been wild. Oh, because they it's this. Yeah, everyone is happy to be there. Nobody has a chip, nobody's checking the clock, nobody's trying to get home early. But they do want to make sure people get home, like in time to see their kids, right, you know, right, the whole dynamic. And then you go, oh, I get why. You guys have been doing this for twenty one years, like the entire time I've been an actor. They've been making this one show of.
Hers And that's crazy.
Crazy, it's crazy.
That's just been on for twenty one years.
Yeah, wow, I know. And it's lovely. It's a lovely place to go to work.
And I think a lot of people you've been there the whole time.
Yes, yeah, I mean crew members, you know, started working when they were young and now their kids are Oh my gosh, it's crazy.
Homes bought, mortgage is paid. Yeah, so that's really that's amazing. It's really cool. It's cool when the right person becomes a boss. Yes, it's a really like wonderful, magical special thing.
And I like knowing that you have that.
Oh yeah, I've got a great boss. And everybody. It's a great it's a great crew, it's a great cast is amazing. The writing is amazing.
Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you. Oh obviously, you know, all I want to do is talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turned into the therapist at the corner of every party. So now that there's a show that's on about a therapist and his world, I'm just like I've been waiting for this.
It's also like I feel like this show and this is you know, I mean, having done a bunch of gay stuff no why you know what I'm saying the TV theater, you know, for like you know, quite a while. Now I will get recognized by queer people or the ladies who love them. And and now lately it's been a lot of straight boys, straight men because because this show lets them talk about their feelings and it's like, you know, it's it's it's pretty moving. Just last night, somebody came up to me who I know, who I hadn't seen in a long time, and he said, I just have to tell you that we have a family member and this show has we haven't you know, like there's been some tension and this show has brought us back together. I know, I know. And it's like this that like there's something about these straights. You know, it's a Harrison Ford thing, It's a Jason Siegel thing, a Bill Lawrence thing, Like these guys have tapped into like a like a masculine sensitivity, and uh, it's it's cool.
It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the obvious nightmare you know, for women, we're people, most of us in the world of the manosphere that is so violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool thing with these men because they're dudes. Yeah, like Harrison Board's the he's.
The dutiest dude of all dudes.
And they're just they're not so evolved that they're like insufferable. They're not whatever anyone thinks like an evolved man is. They're just healthy men or men working on being healthy, figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice to see mask uinity that isn't trying to punch you in the face.
Yes, but that's.
Still allowed to be funny and flawed and yeah and heroic and he's allowed to be a good dad and all these things. And you're like that that's what I mean.
That's like, it's nice. That's what's possible. Yeah, that's what's possible. And for it to be from a guy who is a puncher and a guy who does has done gross R rated comedies, you know, like that these guys can now come around and evolve in two and Bill's been on this trajectory all along, you know, you know, from the days of Spin City and Scrubs. He was on his way towards something that was like a more evolved, growing comedy I think. So, yeah, have you guys talked about that? No? No, but it's an interesting I have a little coffee talk yeah, Bill, Yeah, because he's like, yeah, I mean, I think he's been I don't know, laying the seeds of better men, you know, men being better. Yeah, exactly.
Okay, this is really interesting because when.
We started the podcast, yeah, I mean, I.
Think we're just in it. We dove in normally I like to ask the question I'm about to ask you, But I do think we've hit a full circle moment because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit down with people, not just people who I've been lucky enough to know for a long time, but people who do what we all do. Like you're saying out in the street, people meet you where you are in your career. They know about you. They've now at this point probably seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays. Who knows if you got to look back at your own life the way we're talking about even you know Bill as a storyteller, and you got to like go for a little hang with yourself twelve or ten, like in that Little Boy, would you see the adult you are today? Would you see a storyteller? Would you see the through line? Or would that kid be so wowed meet Michael Uri.
That's wow? What an interesting I like to think the ten year old twelve year old me, if he watched TV, he would get a kick out of adult me. And I think maybe, and I mean certainly imagine like what would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty or you know, like gone to the theater and seen Spam a lot, or you know something that I've been in that a kid would like. And I think about that a lot. And I also I just was they needed pictures of me as a kid for a scene on shrinking, and I was just going through small pictures and there's a picture of me with my friends from boy Scouts. Did you have your little It was actually it was actually Club Scouts because I didn't make it to boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts.
But not for me.
Thank you, thank you. I'll be back at my house. But it was a picture of me and like four of us all like like hey, I mean, let's get a picture, you know, arms around each other, and they're all like smiling, and I'm making the goofyest intentionally goofyest space you've ever seen, like moh and uh, probably eleven twelve in that picture. And I was like, oh, yeah, I was a clown. Yeah, I was a clown. Then a little yeah, it was a little ham And so there is part of me that wants to go back. And of course, you know rewatching Ugly Betty, which is later but still very very young me. Yeah, And whenever I think I haven't figured anything out yet, you know, now as a forty four year old, I think I don't know anything, I haven't figured anything out yet, and then I look back and see that goofy kid making everyone laugh in the cub Scout picture or you know Ugly Betty, I think, oh, I might be able to learn a thing or two from him.
Yeah.
There was something about that confidence that I had then that has I still have confidence and I still like know what I'm capable of, but there's definitely like I miss him. I missed that kid that didn't that had never been told no, you know, that whole thing.
I remember. I remember sort of realizing looking back at the first year we were on the set doing One Tree Hill. I just turned twenty one, I remember saying, and I heard it when it came out of my mouth, reflecting on her, going, well, I was just young enough not to know better, meaning like I didn't know. I couldn't go what the you know to my boss who was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time. I didn't and people were like, what are you doing? And I just I didn't know. There were structures in place. And I love that I didn't. I love the unaware confidence, the ability to just lean into like what you feel, what you know to be right. And I do think how lucky we are to be forty somethings and to be evolved enough to you have you know, lived and grown and you can hold so many things to be true and it's so great. And sometimes I just want the absolutely unconscious confidence of a twenty one or a twelve year old.
I know, I always feel like in my twenties I thought I knew everything, and then in my thirties I realized I didn't and it freaked me out. And now I know things Like now I'm like, oh, I do know things. Yeah, there's a lot I know, and there's stuff I don't know. And I'm okay with that. I'm pretty okay. Yeah, and maybe not okay with that, but no, I'm okay with that.
It's like one of those boards you see people on on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw.
It's that exactly exactly. But all my friends who are thirty, I think they're the oldest people in the world. That's the really fascinating And I did too when I would turn thirty.
That's the hard older at thirty than I felt at for oh a thousand, very young now, which is weird. Yeah, kind of nice.
You look exactly the same. By the way, listener, I appreciate that. O case you haven't seen her Shopsivia Bush, she likes exactly what recently was.
Like, really, what's the thing? And I said, I wish I could take credit for my lack of sun damage. I was just locked in soundstage for the entire decade of my twenties, so when everyone else got sunburned, I was a vampire, which is great for me in my forties, but at the time I was like, I want to go on a vacation New Mexico and I just never did.
No, you're you're busy taking that flight back and forth, four flights a weekend, four flights a weekend.
Oh gosh, interesting to talk about our first jobs because we're doing the same thing right now and watching our first shows. Wild, right, what I have so many questions? Well, okay, they're all running through my head at rapid fire, and I'm like, which one do I pick? What is it like? Because you've talked about this a little bit, but I haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now? How ahead of its time the show was?
Right?
What do you what do you see? What do you pick up on? How does it feel to watch it? You know for the two of you?
Yeah, it's wild.
What are you realizing about this thing that you that you made?
First of all, it's so relieved and proud to know that something we made, you know, we shut the pilot nineteen years ago, something that we did all the way back then was on the right side of history for the most part. I mean, there's a few things that are you know, like that are It's one of those shows that like we we went there with race stuff, we went there with queer stuff. And when something was you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic, that was that was on the bat, that was that was bad in the show. So even though we would just we would occasionally go there, it was bad. Like if I was racist on the show, if my character was racist, he got his come up and by the end and he was like that. So we were never doing it just for the sake of doing it, whereas if you watch some shows, like especially like the nineties, everything is gay, panic, horrible, everything horrible. It's crazy like are we okay?
Were people okay? No, you're so scared of us?
What are you so scared of? And why is this so funny? And also the funny racism, Like there was that period where we were like it was all just funny to be racist, and it was like, no, no, I don't mean it, I being you know, I'm just it's a I mean affable, you know, It's like, no, that's that's actually not funny. That's not funny, and we and we all thought it was okay to laugh at those things. I guess so that it's a relief to rewatch, like we Betty, And when those things do come up, they're not they're bad. They're like, that's not a good thing.
They're observed as a bad thing. Yes, we'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think you have to take it's almost like a math equation to me, you have to sort of analyze what was transferm at the time and how it had to be done. And the fact that there was a trans character on Ugly Buddy was a very huge and the fact, by the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in the world played that trans character. Actually, I think at the time, given where society was, probably did more in that year for transvisibility than would have been done otherwise, because, let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role to an actual trans woman on a show at the time. And so I deal with this stuff too, what rewatching my own show where I'm like, God, I hate that we did it. That way, But I'm glad that we opened the door so that other people could come in the door. I talked to Kevin McHale about this.
A lot with his character on Lee, Sure.
You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who actually was in a wheelchair had played totally. However, his character changed the representation for disabled characters on television and so.
And it showed disabled young disabled people who wanted to be actors that there was a place for them that like I could do something.
Yes, that you could even go out for a TV show in.
The first place, and maybe be on a hit show as a series regular on Foxy, you know that exactly on Fox of all networks, by the way, exactly.
So it's interesting to kind of have to look at the thing for what was good and what was bad and then divide it by the year it was on the team.
Yes, yeah, like a little equation.
Mark math person should make the actual equation for that for us. It's not me, but I see it in my head.
And when and and you know, when we would go into issues with when we would like have storylines about alexis mean on Ugly Betty her father was not accepting and he was a bad man and he ended up dying. You know, like that was like, that's love that that's what. Yes, and played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale, who was not a bad man, but the character was a bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman character that played Alexis Claire Meade. She was a complicated character, but she loved her daughter and she was good and she lived. You know, it's like that, and it was jud Light. So here we have gay icon you know, who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they bring her in to support her trans daughter and that's like so you know, it was way ahead of its time, and it's so nice to watch it and not be cringey and a relief.
Yeah, we were on the CW. We have some cringe. There's some things that I go on all right, But then I you know, I also have the experience where sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation or do a storyline and I'm like, damn, I actually get why this was such a big deal. And it's cool to get to become your own fan. I didn't have that. That's so nice.
Well, no, I was too busy learning because I'd never done anything, and so I would watch. This has come up a lot on our show too. It's like I remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm becoming a fan of like the other actors on the show. I slept on you, but like, but I was so focused on getting my own stuff right and then rewatching my scenes to learn because I didn't know anything about being on camera, and so I would watch and learn and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me, or I need to pay more attention when the camera is there. I used to do this thing. This is so silly, you know how, And so like you know how, like like like like this, there's these two cameras on this when they'll do coverage, so there's a camera, say over your scene partner's left shoulder, and then another scene or another another setup that put the camera between us on the other side and I. For the first few seasons, or maybe the first season or everybody, I would cheat towards wherever the camera was, Like I was on stage, you know, like on stage you cheat to the audience, And so I saw I would see myself on TV and I'd be like, none of this matches.
Yeah, You're like, why am I jumping around?
It's so embarrassing. I would like, yes, I was like, why am I? Like my my face is towards the camera no matter where it is. And now I know, like you can't. You just can't do that. You have to be real right and the camera's going to get you. The camera knows. The camera's doing its job. You don't know how to do it for it. It's really, I know, it's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested to hear what you think, because, like you know, sometimes you think I want to forget the cameras there. I want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like, oh no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who is on shrinking his relationship with the camera is is more important than anything. It's it's he's always talking to the camera. He talks to the camera crew more than any of us, and he's so he knows that camera as good as anyone on the set. Oh I love it, and it's really I learned so much watching the way that he deals with the camera. Oh I love that because like, on the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important. You have to love the camera.
What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be as good at it as he is. You know, I'm not a person who necessarily understands what lens worth throwing up. I know, if we're going wide or long, sure, that's kind of it. What I have come to discover, And I do spend a lot of I spend a lot of time with my camera crews, and I spend a lot of time with my props department. M My favorite thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance. And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there. It's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance becomes something I don't even it's it's muscle memory. And so what I'm thinking about particularly, I have this movie that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of a book. So you know, I was like really geeked about that. We filmed in this really sort of the house itself felt like a set. It was very austere and sterile and modern and it but a location.
It was like a real location.
We were out in Utah. It really lent a certain quality to the movie. And the director who we were working with is a big el mold of our fan, and we watched all these sequences of things that he loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you get to know the house following my character. It Yes, she comes home and she's doing these things and so all the stuff, you know, where you put your bag and where you toss your keys, and what you're doing. And I want to come in with flowers because I do this every Tuesday, and I go to get a vaz And we did all of these things, and the camera it was this one shot that had to move all through you know, driveway up the thing in the front door, into the living room which has art sculptures in it, and then around the dining table into the kitchen and all this stuff. And we had just gotten everyone's photos and all the child's photos and family photos, you know set and I remember at one point when we were figuring out what I was going to be doing, where the things were going to be going, saying to the director and the camera operator who's on the study, which for our friends at home, it's like this giant it almost looks like a kevlar vest. Yeah yeah, and it has this arm on it and the camera floats around in the hands of the operator. And I looked up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing and then doing this thing, and do you want me to throw a glance to one of the foot photos so you can go off me and track across these and then I can reach into frame to grab the vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen. And my and my camera operator and my director look at each other and they go, don't you love a technical act? And I was like, we're dancing, We're dancing, and it was this great way for it, so cool thing, And that's something I realized I've learned in all the years since we were little babies on our first set, right right then, I feel like I'm in on it. And then I love.
Being aw you directed, right, Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah, I bet, I bet you're good at that. That's such an interesting because that was something I learned, like a motivated pan you know, like you help that you help them tell the story by looking. It's a very interesting these did say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they didn't know where to cut, they'd say, cut to America. Like if they didn't know how to figure out what the story was, what's the story in this moment the edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America. She'll tell the story. And there is something about that, like central character, the one with the you know, the character with the problem or the one who's trying to solve the problem. If it's a good actor, and she was a very very good actor, you could always cut to her and she would have exactly the right emotion on her face to help tell the story. I love, I know. It's it's there's nothing nothing feels better than when someone who's not an actor on a set says, you're helping me. It's just like such a you know when when a writer says it or the director says it. It's just like because because we know what we can do, we know what we're we know our thing, but we don't always know their things. And and uh and and it's the dance. It's really it's really cool. It's a really like it's a really exciting thing because I also think what's cool about being on a set is on a movie set, are a TV set, is people come from all walks of life, yes, to end up doing uh production, and you know, maybe there's like a few paths that people are chasing. Uh. You know, people go to Hollywood to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to be an ad or or you know, like a gaffer. They might want to be a DP, and they are working their way towards that, but they come from all walks of life and uh, and they focus specifically on their lane. And so there's there's all these experts. Everyone's kind of an expert, and it's really yeah, it's there's so much to learn and and everyone's so different and so you really get like difference in the theater. It's I guess in the theater people are more alike. Everyone kind of like did plays in high school and and now maybe they're stage manager or they're lighting designers or the directors. But we all kind of came from the same stuff. And that's also cool. That's also really fun. And certainly in a musical you end up with musicians and dancers and things like that, But on a film set, you just never know where someone came from and what they how they ended up there.
Yeah, I mean when you start, you have your first meeting with a UPM or a line producer, and you're like, what do you do? You do the Excel spreadsheets, what you know? And then there's someone who's just purely creative, you know, the special effects makeup person, and you're like, it's so weird that you guys are great friends and you do this job together. But yeah, you're right, they don't speak the same language at all. Did because you, obviously and Becky are so close and you do the rewatch show together still ugly, which I find to be hilarious. That's off to you. How did you guys decide to come back to it to do a podcast? And is it because you have just been such great friends that it felt like it made sense?
Yes, it felt inevitable. We have remained friends all these years we did. We've done lots of things outside of our time on agly Betty. When we did the show, they spun us off to a web series. We had a web series, Oh Crazy, and we had a podcast. Actually, ABC came to us and they were like, in the first of its time. We are venturing into the soundscape and we would like to do a podcast, and they like, we're like, what's a podcast? You know, it's like twenty eighteen or two thousand and eight, what's a podcast? And there were some other shows that had podcasts, but it was like, you know, a marketing person would run it, and they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like to do it. And we did an episode for every episode, and we interviewed the whole cast, and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah, I was crazy, and it was on ABC dot Com and we would do it on our lunch breaks. They would bring micro ones to our dressing rooms and we would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable that we would have eventually come back to it. But yes, we stayed friends all these years. We did a cabaret act together, we did a musical once. We did have a succeed in business on we were trying together. We did we were supposed to do a pilot that got canned because of the pandemic. We were literally like I was literally like had a parking spot at Warner Brothers. We were about to shoot this some hilarious multi camera show where we played siblings, and then the pandemic happened, and you know, it got pushed out and which is totally understandable. And then when when then we saw people were doing rewatch podcasts. I was actually watching The Sopranos for the first time ever, which is the greatest show ever read of. Oh my god, I'm just a creator and I there's two rewatch podcasts from cast members of that show. And so after a particularly you know, amazing episode, I would like go listen, and I was like, this is really fun. We should be doing this. And of course Zach Braff does Zach Braff and Donald Fason have their Scrubs rewatch podcast, yeah, which is so good. And I was a guest because Zach directs Shrinking. He's one of our directors on Shrinking, and he's brilliant and their show, they got through all the episodes and now it's just a show. Now it's just a podcast, and I was like, that is so and it was so fun to be on and I was just inspired, and so Becky and I had talked about it over the years and then finally just made sense. And it's hard to schedule because we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix and I'm shooting Shrinking. But but it's really special and really fun to do, and we're getting to reconnect with our old friends and watch the show. But it definitely and the other thing that we didn't expect when we did the first podcast was that people would send us questions. I'm sure this happens to you too. Yeah, people would ask for advice, and so it became kind of they would like somehow, for some reason, Becky and I, who were playing evil characters on the show, were somehow counselors in their heads to these fans of the show. And it still happens. We still, you know, this round of this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff. And obviously we're not like experts, but Becky's really clever and we get we give some advice and give her very advice. It's very fun.
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though, what people really want is they just want an opinion from a friend. And then we've played a character who feels like a friend to someone You are in that character, Psyche.
Yeah, it's very sweet and in a way.
I did this recently was I did an episode of Chelsea Handler's podcast and she takes callers, and I'm also like, look, I'm not I don't have a degree, you know, a health degree, but like I've certainly spent enough money in therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts, you know, after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice to get advice, not from necessarily an expert, just another human who's trying to figure it.
Out, or an actual friend, you know, like a like a friend in your head is sometimes easier, you know, and sometimes when somebody's just getting the information face value, it's I heard somebody say you want your friends to listen and your therapist to tell you what to do, and it's always the opposite. Yes, yes, And so like maybe there's something about, you know, the friend in your head that's in between.
Yeah. Do you do you think there's an added element of that because shrinking centers around yeah, therapy, Like, do the interactions you have with people because of the text of the show feel like they've changed?
Well, because my character is it's so funny. That's a very funny question actually, because we I meet a lot of therapists who watched the show now, and this so my character on the show in this In the first season, he was this very like plucky, happy, go lucky guy, and he had this mantra, everything goes my way, and I knew when I read the first episodes. I was like, Okay, well, this is obviously upfront. I mean, obviously this isn't you know. He's just saying this, This isn't true. He doesn't really believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it can't be true. And I can tell already that eventually we're going to peel away the layers and find a real person underneath. It's not just like this. And then in the second season, and they did. And I had some amazing stuff in the first season, and then the second season even better stuff. And at one point in the second season, I'm going to fight with Jason Siegl's character and I'm making something about myself and he was like, are you really so much of a narcissist that you can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy, that's what narcissism is, having the courage to put yourself above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is. And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's so great. Yeah. And then and then occasionally people would say, you know this guy's like Bill would be like, and then you know, we keep we make sure we do this line, but also say something else, you know, say something you know that a narcissist would say in this moment. And I was like, oh, okay, oh and interesting. And then I watched the second season and I started to realize, oh my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And then I met a therapist who watches the show and she was like, I love the show and I love your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And she goes, he's such a narcissist, just like almost accusatory, and I'm like this And then I was like, I've been playing a narcissist without realizing it, and and I thought, I was like this is It was fascinating because you know, a narcissist doesn't know there, they don't know they're a narcissist, and you actually you can't really tell them because that they won't really hear it and they'll just deflect it. I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I am in real life a narcissist and I would never know it. It's so weird. It's like really heady to think about. Yeah, but this character or not. But that's all anyone talks about and said. They're like always talking about how he's a narcissist. I'm like, oh my god, I've been playing a little bit. But also I'm kind of proud of it, like I've been doing it right.
That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got into.
It right and not judging him and and it turns out it works. But that was something I you know, in drama school, I learned we would play villains, you know, doing Richard the Third and they're like, we're like, but this guy's terrible, and he says he's terrible. How am I supposed to play this? And they're like, you can't judge your characters. And so that was like one of those fundamental things that I learned, don't judge your characters, look at what you know, get inside of them and and figure out why they do what they do and all that, Ye, what makes them to Yeah, And the writing is so good on shrinking that I just play the role, you know, I just I just see what's there. And I'm like, Okay, this is when I think this is the I'll be damned, I'm playing a narcissist all this time.
But here's what I'll tell you, And this is what I think is cool, because you not that you'll be shocked. I love to ask my therapist a million questions about how he does his job, and he's like, you're paying me to ask me about and I'm like, yeah, I have a question here, because you know, all the all the articles now are about narcissism, and you know, when you're trying to.
I can't imagine why we're all talking about, right.
No idea when you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself from one. You do a lot of research saying this for a friend, obviously, right, right, right, But I was like, how how do people know and how do you deal with it and how you know? Like is there never a question for someone who has this thing of like could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes, if you've ever asked yourself if you're a narcissist, you're not? Oh and i'ment all right, he said they would never they would, you know, and it was this really funny thing. And so maybe that's part of it for you, is to realize, as you said, the writing is so good that you're getting into the head of this person, and because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are playing him as he's written. But even the fact that you're asking the question means, don't worry, You're okay, You're not too close to It's funny.
That's so funny. It's very interesting. Have you ever this is a this is maybe a different podcast, but no, yeah, kind of that. There's that thing like a narcissist, when a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become kind of like anti narcissist, where instead of making everything about themselves, they assume nothing is about them.
Right, they become almost disembodied. Yes, yes, it's fascinating interesting.
It's this like consequence of being tied to a narcissism where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs. And it's actually like the like the opposite, and it's it's still kind of narcissism, but it's like instead of it all being like me, me, me, me me. It's like no one, no one knows, you know, like, yes, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't y yeah, yeah I know.
And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. I mean, listen, it's it's life stuff, right. Our jobs are so cool and so crazy. How much fun to go to work and have everything be so funny And you're dealing with humor in the lens of mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not lost on me that the person I know you to be has found this job in this moment, you know that you are. You're gathering an audience in such a cool, positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people, you know, being human to each other. What what does it sort of feel like to have this now? Because you have been an advocate for so long, you have stood up for the community for so long, you have exemplified queer joy for so long in theater in the pride plays in your life and your love and your relationship and your work. Like and we are in a really weird time where so much of the progress we feels like it's being so violently erased, like, how are you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto your joy?
It's so tiring, so exhausting. Yeah, well, I am heartened by people that, you know, back in the day, even when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who were out of the closet.
Well especially not Yeah, no, you're right, I was about to say, especially not a lot of men, but really just not a lot of people.
Yeah, I mean more women, but not a lot of people. And and back then you still had to like make a whole thing about it, even when it was obvious that you know, you know, like nobody was surprised when I came out, but you still kind of had to because they were asking. I mean, I remember one of my first ever red carpets for Ugly Betty. This guy I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet, and this guy on a red carpet said so are you out and put a microphone in my face? And I was so did exactly that I made exactly the face you just made, like what what that? That question was so unfair. It's just not and I sort of hemden had and said, oh, well, I'm I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my That was my line that day. And the guy printed his question and my response and he he described my response, so it was in print. I don't remember what what the publication was, but he wrote my response like that. I harumphed hemden had yes and then said, I don't talk about my sexuality, which is just like you know, and you you, I know you've been there too. There's sometimes you get asked a question in an interview and you can tell there they've already decided what they're going to write. It doesn't really matter what you say. They've already figured out what they're going to write. And especially when you know, especially then, and especially when it came to things like that, and so like, on the one hand, it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to know that there's this huge community of queer people in media. The GLAD Awards was like, gosh, was that that came at the perfect time because we are being bombarded and especially you know since January of this year, like it's just NonStop, relentless. We have to we all have to stay so on top of things. And everybody went after I mean everybody I know wanted to like go on a news diet and did some of them went on the news fast and were just like can't you have to sort of keep up with things, And it's just relent it's relentless. But to go into a room like the GLAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people who've done the work and live there, live there truths, and and and not not only that, but they ad you know, they they are they are all all everyone in that room is an advocate. That was That was very special and that helped. That was one of those like healing, wonderful moments. And you know, and I've I've felt it on in a few different events that I've been host of or MC of, and and there is a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on, but you also are allowed to We're all, I think we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate what is working. And that was the thing about the GLAD Awards that I kept going back to when we did that, like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening and and all of our stuff is in the dumpster, All of our belongings are in the dumpster.
Every precious to us.
Yes, is in the dumpster, but there's also great work being done and constantly, and here's proof, here's here's here's millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that we've got a lot of great work happening and a lot of a lot of we are moving the needle in so many ways.
I think that's what it is. Though, when you said it's just so exhausting, Yeah, it's exhausting to have to put out the same fire over and over again. Like we've done this, We've put it out. Can we not keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are you trying to burn people?
Right?
You know? And the sort of cognitive dissonance of it. They want to come for our community in such a way, and I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y'all, Like you go clean up your side of the street. We're set here. Yeah, you know, I cracked a joke about it recently where I was like, none of y'all have you know, none of y'all have ever had a problem of a woman like me is married to an adulterer or white collar criminal or like what ever you have a problem of a woman like me wants to be married to another woman, Like, don't the girlies deserve the chance to be just as miserable as the rest of you, Like, come on, you know everybody's going to pay their taxes unless you're a billionaire, go criticize them.
Like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me.
But I think you're right. I think to be in a room where people are celebrated for exactly who they are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know, and for what they're able to do despite the fire.
Yes, right, that's that part.
It's a really big deal. And it was also just the most fun to watch you crush and host, and I mean the split, the split Glinda and alphaba alp absolutely did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh, I screamed, and I was like, shut up, Soviia on stage. All the moments were crushed.
I've hosted enough now to know that, uh, fashion is your friend. When you're hosting something, it does have to work for you because we've all watched award shows where a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes. And if you come out looking great, that's your first joke in the bag. You look great. I don't need I don't need to get a laugh. Now I look great. The work is done. So shout out to Christian Seriano who designed that look, made that thing.
Your carpet fit was Charles Harbuson.
When oh wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist. I had seven looks that night.
You crushed.
It was really fun.
I wanted all of it. It's like, where did that suit also come? Fringe, give it to me?
That one so good? And then oh yeah it was. It was a really special night and so many, so many, so many cool people. And also you know you've been at that venue before backstage for other I mean I've been lots of different award shows. That backstage is so tiny, the room is not big, and it can get tense and awkward back there, and like people not wanting to associate or not want you know, it's like this these people's these people's people are keeping them away from these people's people, and like that kind of thing that happens backstage is weird, weird, creepy show busy things. Not at the Clout Awards, it's a party. At the Cloud Awards, it was and everyone was bigger because the everyone's looks were bigger, so there was even less space and more skin and it was and no tension backstage at all. I was back there the whole night. There was no tension. We were cramped, it was hot, but we loved it was so we loved being there. Everyone loved being there and was like supporting. And I think it was because we all knew we'd done the work. Nobody was worried. There was no like stress. It was no lick did I did I? It was all, oh, we did? You did I did? We've all all done the work. Everyone did, yeah and have and now we can we can you know we can. We can handle this. And that's something to say. There's something like I feel that way about really all the minority groups, like like everyone's everyone's had to deal with this already. So this new round of hate it feels different. It definitely this, this this administration feels different than the previous administration or his first administration, I should say. But even then, we've been through this. We know hate. We faced hate, yeah, even if it wasn't head on. We know what hate is meant for us, and we are already stronger for we already have like the thick skins. You're the one's without the thick skins.
I mean, yeah, well, I think especially because we've we've been through this for so long. I mean I think about, you know, ten years ago, us being at you know, Pride Marches. I think about growing up going to them with my family, you know, we know the playbook now, and I think the some of the sadness of the you know, these these seeds they've sown, like the lies have come home to roosts. And it's like every accusation you make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting something you've done that you want people to think we've done. Because what your spiritual advisor is going to go to prison for assaulting a twelve year old Yes, mister president, like you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein, Like bro, I hate to break it to you, guys, but like the receipts are out right and it's not us. And it's why I love how viral that that hashtag not a drag queen keeps going for years because they're like, oh look, another one still has never been a drag queen. Guys. We're fun, y'all, y'all. Y'all need to you need to clean house on your end of the things. We will just be at the gladderwards by Michael, You're believe forever.
And also that you think about like you really think that we we're just that we're doing this because of you. You think that we we we we are queer because of you, that this has anything to do with don't you realize that we they're narcissists. Well, that's that's right exactly. I mean, they think it's all about them. It's it's all about this is our thing, this is this is about us, this is who we are, and this is and we did this because we didn't have a choice, because we are this.
Well, I think a lot of them forget and again this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right, Like the people who ban books are never on the right side of history, to be clear, But they're trying to ban all of the books because they don't want people to know that pride started as a protest right, that that the fabulousness was born of struggle, that it was literally radical to be seen in public as you are. So are people chose to be seen in the best and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could get killed for it, right, And if people don't know that, they don't understand how actually revolutionary it can be to me yourself.
If they don't know that, and if they don't like do the work to learn that, then they just believe whatever someone tells them, and they say that it's bad.
Yeah, and then they also prot then no one cares what you're sleeping with, and like, well, y'all are the ones asking people live on camera on red carpets.
I know, I know, trying to.
Volunteer that information you're asking.
You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a tweet of mine or an expost of mine that they said something like basically to the tune of don't rub it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming out and saying I'm straight.
Like have you ever seen a movie?
Yeah? And almost like you do you know what a rom com is. You're also disproving both of your points with this very message. You're asking me to be like you, yeah, and you're claiming your straightness.
Yes.
So yeah, I guess it's so.
When people really were bombarding me when I started dating my partner, and they were like, well, what are you? How do you identify? What is the word? And I was like, has no one paid attention to any of the beautiful women I have kissed on both film and Elias for the last twenty years. No one's been paying attention, you know. And then I loved that. Meant much of the lesbian internet was like, we all knew you weren't just acting on easy. I was like, thank you, ladies, thank.
You for seeing me.
This is always where I have been seen.
They were happy to claim they were very happy, welcome you.
So happy to officially be home though it's been home for so long, when to be seen is so special? And I had like a very you know, I get very emotional when people that I love are happy and watching you win the critics choice ward, I was like, y, I'm just so amped for you.
Thank you?
Was it because you love the show and because you love the material and and you know the whole gang that puts it together and it's it's the critics choice. It's like, to me, it feels as cool as maybe sag. It really does feel like peers, right? Was it? Was that a really special one?
Yeah? And interesting That's an interesting comparison because obviously SAG Awards is voted on by actors. Yeah, so that's you know, that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics, critics choice. The critics they're watching everything, that's it. They see everything but the keenest eye.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
And to think that they watched what I did and said we like that. I mean obviously, like you know, we're all conditioned to think reviews don't matter, and it's and it's and of course sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not. But like it is part of the industry. I mean it is. Any art will eventually be dissected and criticized, good and good or bad, and so like it is, it is part. It is part of the industry. We all have to accept it, whether you read reviews or not. I don't actually read reviews. Well you're not trying to make yourself crazy, right, Well yeah, because then you're like, okay, well do I do what they want me to do? Or do I do what they want me to do or do what I think I should do? And but to know they're watching and smelling when I stepped in that was like really, really gratifying and super surprising. I mean I wasn't. I was not. I didn't know it just you know. My publicist texted me that day and she said, you just got nominated for a Critics Choice Award. And I was like, what what that's today? This is happening. I had no idea. And then we went and my sister was my date. And before it was the night before the Critics Choice posted some video of you know, like we're getting the room ready, and it was like like quick cuts of the seats with the pictures of the actors, you know, home board exactly, and I was one of them. And I was like, whoa alongside big stars, Like it was like Angelina Jelle and to me Moore and Michael Ury. And I was like, what is happening? And that was the first moment I was like whoa, I'm in the I'm in the video. Hey. And then we sat down and my sister was like, are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm not nervus. I'm not going to win. This is just that we're just gonna have a lovely night. I'm not gonna win, and she's like, I think you might, and that was when I was like, whoa, Laura thinks I might and she doesn't know anything. If you think I'm might, if she thinks I'm might, truly yes and uh. And it reminded me actually have another moment when my when my mother said, my because it's so easy to talk yourself out of something. Yeah, it's so so easy. And when I was when I was in community college, I went to community college for a year out of high school, becau I had terrible grades and and I and I was trying. I was like change. I was sort of like going through a transition. I thought I wanted to be a drama teacher. And then I was like, maybe I'm good at acting, maybe I could be an actor, and and I was like maybe ya ya YadA. But then I had a teacher at this community college urged me to audition for Juilliard. And I was like, Okay, I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you think. But I'm perfectly happy at my community college and this is this is what I want to do. And my parents were like, how are we going to pay for Juilliard? It's so expensive, we don't have that kind of money. And I was like guys, I'm not going to get in. I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a good experience. And my mom goes, I think you might. And it was those two I'll never forget. Those two moments were really I talked myself out of a possibility both of those times, and my family kind of showed me. And it, I mean obviously, like one, by the time they said my name of the Critic's Choice Awards, the voting had been done, and it was nothing I could do. I mean, I you know, there's nothing you can really do. But it's certainly when I auditioned for Juilliard with my mom's confidence, that helped, you know, and my mom's not in the business. My mom doesn't know, but she watched me and she thought I was good, and she could see the other people were responding to me, and and she knew sometimes she knew yeah, yeah, really cool. Yeah it was cool. So it's uh, yeah, it's it's there's something about that, Like obviously all we do is in order to be seen. That's when we got into this. We wanted to like make stories and have people look at them. But yeah, and I know that people are seeing me, but to be seen is sort of different. They they they're saying, I get it, I get what you're doing and I like it. And that was that was very gratifying.
That's so nice. It's such a nice valid Yeah, you know, it feels like a healthy, a healthy version of that too. Do the does the work you do with the Pride plays? Do you do? You also see it in that way as helping people be seen as helping queer stories be seen totally, like how did it? How did it come to fruition? And I sort of want the backstories you can tell us about how it's growing this.
Yes, yes, thank you, thanks for asking us. So basically, Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater a man of the theater. He's a lawyer and a producer. He and I became really good friends. He he was a producer of the solo play I did, Buyer and Seller, this play that I did for a long long time where I played an actor working in Barber Streisand's basement. Look it up, you love it? And and we became really good friends because we were the same age and we just got along really really well, and we kept we would always talk about queer theater and the good and the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater and a lot of queer theater, and there's no there's no like lack of queer stories in the theater. It's a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing. I kept noticing specifically that like it was me and the same couple of guys every time up for roles or we would follow each other like like, you know, Jesse Tyler Ferguson didn't do this, so I did it. I didn't do this, so Jesse did it. And it kept like and I was like, I get white people think Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike. We're actually very very different, and yet we keep getting you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like, all right, well, that's like this is a problem we need to like and and I also know because I also, like, my partner is an actor, and I know lots of other queer actors, and and there's this there's this mid level issue which happens in I think all industries. But there's this thing where like you can get experience until you've had experience, and they won't give you a chance without experience, And so what Doug and I wanted to do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities. And also we didn't like that queer stories were continuing to be told by straight people when there are I mean, I don't think this. I don't have a black and white rule about this. I don't think I don't I think that this is a fluid conversation about you know, who can play what. But I do think when when a role or a story is inherently about the queerness, that to say a straight person is the best person for the job is silly and that happens a lot when you know, like you're like, well, can't we just hire the best person for the job, And it's like, yeah, you can, and you should. But like who are you seeing?
Yes?
Who's your casting pool?
Yes?
Are you seeing all the street? Are you seeing all the gay people before you see the straight people, or as you see the straight people, or are you you know, is your list a bunch of straight people that you know? YadA, YadA, YadA. So that was something that and then Doug on his side of his side of the industry, was we were, you know, like as queer plays get submitted to theaters, they end up in the same pile. So you might have a play about a forty something white cis gay man in the same pile as a story about a twenty something black trans woman, And like those two plays, those two plays shouldn't be in the same category, right, Why are you putting them in the same category and then choosing one over the other.
Yeah, it's like you wouldn't put a World War two movie in a roum com in the same pile.
Thank you? Exactly, you know exactly. And so that was like, it's like gay is not. Gay is not a category? Yeah, gay is you know, that's a that's a kind of a part queer is it. So we wanted to create a festival where they could all So we set out, we were like, let's do a festival, and it was this was for World Pride when it was in New York and twenty nineteen. That's when we started. Yeah, and we thought we could do like four plays, and then we were like, wait a minute, there's a lot of different kinds of people in this community and we need to try to represent all of them. And it ended up being nineteen Wow, and I think we did a really good job. It was it was it was hard, but I think we really did, you know, tick all the boxes, so to speak, and and and and reach out to like as much of the community as we could and try to represent all of them. And so in the in the years since, we did one on Zoom during the pandemic, and we've and we've done educational initiatives through the festivals. And this year we are World Pride is in d C and we're going We're going to d C for World Pride. Pride Plays will be an association with the William Memmath Theater Company during World Pride, and we're going to do I think we're going to do six play readings. And it should be it should be great. It might be charged, it might be it might be there might be some I don't know what it's going to be like. I mean, honestly don't know what it's going to be like. And things change so rapidly, especially in that town. But I've worked in that town a lot in the theater. I've done a lot of theater in that town, and it is one of my favorite places in the world to do theater because the audiences are so they're so they're so intelligent, but more than that, they are they're curious, they want to learn. And because their jobs are so intense, everyone in DC has such intense jobs, they really are able to like put it away and come and focus on something new, as opposed to sometimes in New York, like you get like professional theater goers who see four four shows a week and and so it's always it's always it's always work for them, and you can feel them say what's different, what's new? You know, in d C you can do, like in New York, if you're going to do say Hamlet, it's got to be like either definitive or brand new, some brand new version. And in d C you can just like throw Hamlet up and say this is Hamlet.
Yeah, and it can just be very good.
It can just be good, yeah exactly. It doesn't have to like reinvent Hamlet or be the best Hamlet ever, in which New York's you know.
You've had seven times, yeah exactly.
And in New York you try to do some old play and you know, if you didn't, if you didn't completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird. But but but in DC, you can do that and the audience wants that. So so I know the audience will be great for us in d C. And I feel like it's going to be great. That's my hunch. You never know what you never know. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of queer people come into.
DC, you know what, good they need it.
Yeah, I think so, And I think we have an opportunity to you know, change some change some minds.
And now for our sponsors. When you look at this sort of landscape of your life and you know your life with Ryan and your life in work and that your advocacy and your shows and the plays and all the things, you have a lot what feels like you're work in progress.
Right now, right right right the title.
The title you knew it was coming, and then you forgott come full circle.
There it is. It's probably actually there's there's some adulting that I think is a real work in progress. And that's that's something that I'm like, you know, like when I talk to people who are younger than I am, there are lots more of them now and that happens to us. Yeah, and what I see in their eyes that they're looking to me for some kind of insider advice. You know, I had somebody as somebody that I'm close with who's about thirty, asked me to mentor them, Like I actually asked me to mentor them, and I thought, oh, I can't. Yeah, I'm gonna too. Oh I am old enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around that and and and trusting that I'm an adult and I can do that, and I can like just off the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my own experience, because that's really hard thing, especially in our business, is all you really know is what happened to you. Yeah, we've definitely've been around and we've been able to observe things, but I can only really, I can only really know what's happened to me and you your experience will definitely be different because we all have different different experiences. No two actors are the same. But it's navigating that, like the sort of the responsibility of being elder gay of being you know, like elder actor being the oldest person in the room sometimes. And then also outside of show business, you know, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages, and like those kinds of adult things nissas and nephews that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy things that I can hand back and like now they're you know, okay, this is forever. These memories are forever now, and I want to be you know, I want to be a good citizen to them. So I think the work in progress is actually being you know, like I think in show business, I'm way more at ease than I've ever been, and as a man adult, I'm figuring it out still. Yeah, I'm still figuring out like how do you be a man in this? And also our world keeps changing, so I'm giving myself a little bit of slack, a little bit of grace. But but yeah, what's it like to be a middle aged man.
That's a big question.
Because eighty eight feels good. That feels like a good age to make it too, So that means this is the middle I loving people who are well this is mean.
I mean you have a whole other half, that's right, And look at what you've done in the first half.
That's right. Yeah, totally, And so much of the first half was spent as a kid, yeah, which doesn't really count exactly. I was just grissy.
It's like you get double the adult time now.
Yeah, I know it's cool.
I love it.
Yeah.
Well, I'm excited to do forty four more with you.
Great, let's go. Oh okay, let's sing on a beach when we're eighty eight?
How fast? Just not giving up?
Right? I love you, I love you, Thank you. It's so nice to be THO for you. Thank you,
