Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whips, Smarties, we have a smarty on the podcast today. I am joined by Alison Camarota. She is an American broadcast journalist and a political commentator for CNN. She formerly was an anchor of CNN's morning news show new Day, the co host of the afternoon edition of CNN Newsroom, and she served as host of CNN Tonight from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three. And Allison came from a history at Fox News. I have so many questions for her about what it was like to go and work for a competitor, and I'm really curious about her experiences during the me Too era at Fox. She has been an incredible voice, both about her own experiences and also as an anchor for a number of primetime specials on the topic, including Tipping Point, Sexual Harassment in America and The Hunting Ground Sexual Assault on Campus. She is really an incredible advocate and an incredible journalist, and today I'm really looking forward to hearing about her making the leap from anchor to author. She's just released her memoir called Combat Love, which is the story of two women mother and daughter trying to forge their own paths and independence and find their own happiness, success, and wholeness. I really am amazed at how vulnerable she chose to be in this book, and how she really brings us into her world of nurture and neglect, parenting and personal freedom and helps us ask the questions, what are we willing to sacrifice for self actualization and happiness? Let's dive in with Alison. Hi, Allison, how are you. I'm great, How are you great? Thank you. I'm so thrilled to have you here today.

Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whips, Smarties, we have a smarty on the podcast today. I am joined by Alison Camarota. She is an American broadcast journalist and a political commentator for CNN. She formerly was an anchor of CNN's morning news show new Day, the co host of the afternoon edition of CNN Newsroom, and she served as host of CNN Tonight from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three. And Allison came from a history at Fox News. I have so many questions for her about what it was like to go and work for a competitor, and I'm really curious about her experiences during the me Too era at Fox. She has been an incredible voice, both about her own experiences and also as an anchor for a number of primetime specials on the topic, including Tipping Point, Sexual Harassment in America and The Hunting Ground Sexual Assault on Campus. She is really an incredible advocate and an incredible journalist, and today I'm really looking forward to hearing about her making the leap from anchor to author. She's just released her memoir called Combat Love, which is the story of two women mother and daughter trying to forge their own paths and independence and find their own happiness, success, and wholeness. I really am amazed at how vulnerable she chose to be in this book, and how she really brings us into her world of nurture and neglect, parenting and personal freedom and helps us ask the questions, what are we willing to sacrifice for self actualization and happiness? Let's dive in with Alison. Hi, Allison, how are you. I'm great, How are you great? Thank you. I'm so thrilled to have you here today.

Thank you. I was doing a shoot earlier today, about an hour north of my home, and I got the time wrong, so I thought that I was talking to you at one my time. And so I was in the back office of a grocery store chain, which is like the least glamorous, grittiest place you've ever seen. It had, you know, like an old calendar, not from this year, and like yeah, things taped up and just like ratty bags. And I was like, Oh, this is going to be a glamorous shoot with Sophia. She's going to really get a gist of my job.

Thank you. I was doing a shoot earlier today, about an hour north of my home, and I got the time wrong, so I thought that I was talking to you at one my time. And so I was in the back office of a grocery store chain, which is like the least glamorous, grittiest place you've ever seen. It had, you know, like an old calendar, not from this year, and like yeah, things taped up and just like ratty bags. And I was like, Oh, this is going to be a glamorous shoot with Sophia. She's going to really get a gist of my job.

I totally get it. It's so funny. I think, whether you know you're working in the news or in the sort of film and television side, Like, I am always wild when people come visit you on set and they go, wait, wait, this is not what I thought. And you're like, yeah, because you see a produced news show or you see people like at the Golden Globes and you don't know, like how insane the place is where the media gets made to get it to that stage. You know, it's so totally.

I totally get it. It's so funny. I think, whether you know you're working in the news or in the sort of film and television side, Like, I am always wild when people come visit you on set and they go, wait, wait, this is not what I thought. And you're like, yeah, because you see a produced news show or you see people like at the Golden Globes and you don't know, like how insane the place is where the media gets made to get it to that stage. You know, it's so totally.

Totally People are like, this is your green room coffee. It's bile, you know, Yeah.

Totally People are like, this is your green room coffee. It's bile, you know, Yeah.

I know, I love it well, I you know, jokes aside. Obviously, I think you know, I'm such just a lover of the news, and I think, you know, USC Annenberg School of Journalism student me would not believe that I get to be here and interview so many journalists that I love and admire. So thank you for coming to join me on the show today, my pleasure.

I know, I love it well, I you know, jokes aside. Obviously, I think you know, I'm such just a lover of the news, and I think, you know, USC Annenberg School of Journalism student me would not believe that I get to be here and interview so many journalists that I love and admire. So thank you for coming to join me on the show today, my pleasure.

And so you went to the school of communication or journalism.

And so you went to the school of communication or journalism.

Yeah, journalism, I am. I went to you see to get a BFA in theater and for me just realize that the intensity of the program felt too narrow for me. I had so many other interests in you know, political science and the way the world works. And I found journalism and a theater combo to be the perfect sort of equation for me in school because I got to really lean into what makes real stories so special and how to communicate them well. And I think that, you know, it's influenced my work certainly as an activist, and I think certainly as an actor, because you've got to kind of find the truth and the thing you're doing if you're making a TV show or you know, writing an op ed about somebody. So I really loved it.

Yeah, journalism, I am. I went to you see to get a BFA in theater and for me just realize that the intensity of the program felt too narrow for me. I had so many other interests in you know, political science and the way the world works. And I found journalism and a theater combo to be the perfect sort of equation for me in school because I got to really lean into what makes real stories so special and how to communicate them well. And I think that, you know, it's influenced my work certainly as an activist, and I think certainly as an actor, because you've got to kind of find the truth and the thing you're doing if you're making a TV show or you know, writing an op ed about somebody. So I really loved it.

That's very cool, and I really appreciate what you're saying, because storytelling is the bridge, you know. Storytelling is the link between Yes, so many of our careers, whether it's acting, whether it's a single or it's not just in the arts, I mean even public policy, lawmakers. It's all storytelling. And so really you realized that in particularly with the book and being an author, I feel like those telling our stories is what is the bridge between us. Yeah, regardless of what you do.

That's very cool, and I really appreciate what you're saying, because storytelling is the bridge, you know. Storytelling is the link between Yes, so many of our careers, whether it's acting, whether it's a single or it's not just in the arts, I mean even public policy, lawmakers. It's all storytelling. And so really you realized that in particularly with the book and being an author, I feel like those telling our stories is what is the bridge between us. Yeah, regardless of what you do.

You know, Yeah, And I love and I can't wait to dive into the book with you because to read such a personal story, you know, this kind of excavation work of family, and certainly I think what women inherit through their familial line is so inspiring to me. And I loved the way that you did this, and you're saying something that really makes me think, you know, whether it's you as a journalist going and writing a memoir like this, or you know, what I have to figure out if I'm going to go make a new movie or something. I even think about it. My girlfriend Jessica Malatti Rivera, whose work I'm sure you saw a lot during the pandemic. You know, she's an incredible scientist and helped really lead the forefront of the COVID tracking project and so much advocacy for us. And she pointed out that in the science and medical community there has been such a lack of emphasis on the storytelling and that her job, you know, the way she thinks of science is science isn't finished until it's been clearly communicated, and in particular to non scientists. And so when I think about these ways that so many of us are realizing, if we can't tell our stories to each other and have them heard, we're failing the kind of human experiment in a way. And it I guess I wonder was kind of part of that craving to communicate what led you to say, Okay, I'm really going to do it. I'm going to work on this book, or or was it something else.

You know, Yeah, And I love and I can't wait to dive into the book with you because to read such a personal story, you know, this kind of excavation work of family, and certainly I think what women inherit through their familial line is so inspiring to me. And I loved the way that you did this, and you're saying something that really makes me think, you know, whether it's you as a journalist going and writing a memoir like this, or you know, what I have to figure out if I'm going to go make a new movie or something. I even think about it. My girlfriend Jessica Malatti Rivera, whose work I'm sure you saw a lot during the pandemic. You know, she's an incredible scientist and helped really lead the forefront of the COVID tracking project and so much advocacy for us. And she pointed out that in the science and medical community there has been such a lack of emphasis on the storytelling and that her job, you know, the way she thinks of science is science isn't finished until it's been clearly communicated, and in particular to non scientists. And so when I think about these ways that so many of us are realizing, if we can't tell our stories to each other and have them heard, we're failing the kind of human experiment in a way. And it I guess I wonder was kind of part of that craving to communicate what led you to say, Okay, I'm really going to do it. I'm going to work on this book, or or was it something else.

No, it was exactly that. I mean, what prompted me is that we all wear masks. I mean, in your career, obviously you play a part, and we all wear these masks. And in the news you are playing a part. You're playing yourself, but you're playing a very polished version of your self. And so I started to think, because this is what I always connected with the viewers. I always connected with my interview subjects. But people would sometimes share with me the impression that, like, well, you must have had an easy life, Allison, or like you, you know, things have worked out so beautifully for you. Look at how great you look, you know, on me. And I realized, oh, the mask is too convincing, you know, Like it's when I have the fake eyelashes on in the perfectly poffed hair and the jewel tones, that that can give the impression that it's been easy, but of course it hasn't been easy, and that in that way, it was a divide the screen itself is a divider between us, and so I just felt like peeling off the mask might be a bridge and help people understand. Oh no, yes, I did get to achieve my dream, for which I'm very, very grateful, but it is a total survival story, and there were a lot of obstacles and you know, despair on the way to getting that dream.

No, it was exactly that. I mean, what prompted me is that we all wear masks. I mean, in your career, obviously you play a part, and we all wear these masks. And in the news you are playing a part. You're playing yourself, but you're playing a very polished version of your self. And so I started to think, because this is what I always connected with the viewers. I always connected with my interview subjects. But people would sometimes share with me the impression that, like, well, you must have had an easy life, Allison, or like you, you know, things have worked out so beautifully for you. Look at how great you look, you know, on me. And I realized, oh, the mask is too convincing, you know, Like it's when I have the fake eyelashes on in the perfectly poffed hair and the jewel tones, that that can give the impression that it's been easy, but of course it hasn't been easy, and that in that way, it was a divide the screen itself is a divider between us, and so I just felt like peeling off the mask might be a bridge and help people understand. Oh no, yes, I did get to achieve my dream, for which I'm very, very grateful, but it is a total survival story, and there were a lot of obstacles and you know, despair on the way to getting that dream.

Yeah. Yeah, I think what happens when us three dimensional people get made into two dimensional you know, on screen avatars essentially, is we lose all of our three dimensional life and the dissonance between those things can be so jarring.

Yeah. Yeah, I think what happens when us three dimensional people get made into two dimensional you know, on screen avatars essentially, is we lose all of our three dimensional life and the dissonance between those things can be so jarring.

I think that's such a good point because by definition, journalism requires you to be two dimensional, because really you're just a conduit. You're supposed to the way we were trained in you know, the eighties in journalism is don't make your self the story. You know, you are just the platform you're helping. You're the mouthpiece to help somebody who doesn't have a voice or who wants to amplify their voice. And I get it. I believe that. I think that's been great. But at some point, and it was somewhere around I think George Floyd's killing for me, that I started thinking you know, it would be really helpful if I could say to some of these folks on the screen, I've been there. You know, I know what it's like to be broke. I know what it's like. I I somehow became close right after George Floyd's killing because I interviewed his brother Forloness. I think we were the first national interview that he did, and his grief was so raw. It was the day after killing. His grief was so raw, but his voice was already so profound, and I was just struck by his strength. And somehow I've become friends with George Floyd's girlfriend, and I wanted to be when I interviewed her, and I wanted to be able to say I get it. You know, I have been in love with people who've struggled with substance abuse and people who've been broken. I've been broken. I know what it's like to be desperate, and I know what it's like to lose people. But that's not our job. So I felt like I had to keep people at an arm's length and not share what I knew to be true from my own story, And so that was kind of motivation to actually publish it.

I think that's such a good point because by definition, journalism requires you to be two dimensional, because really you're just a conduit. You're supposed to the way we were trained in you know, the eighties in journalism is don't make your self the story. You know, you are just the platform you're helping. You're the mouthpiece to help somebody who doesn't have a voice or who wants to amplify their voice. And I get it. I believe that. I think that's been great. But at some point, and it was somewhere around I think George Floyd's killing for me, that I started thinking you know, it would be really helpful if I could say to some of these folks on the screen, I've been there. You know, I know what it's like to be broke. I know what it's like. I I somehow became close right after George Floyd's killing because I interviewed his brother Forloness. I think we were the first national interview that he did, and his grief was so raw. It was the day after killing. His grief was so raw, but his voice was already so profound, and I was just struck by his strength. And somehow I've become friends with George Floyd's girlfriend, and I wanted to be when I interviewed her, and I wanted to be able to say I get it. You know, I have been in love with people who've struggled with substance abuse and people who've been broken. I've been broken. I know what it's like to be desperate, and I know what it's like to lose people. But that's not our job. So I felt like I had to keep people at an arm's length and not share what I knew to be true from my own story, And so that was kind of motivation to actually publish it.

You know, that's really cool. How did you first get into journalism?

You know, that's really cool. How did you first get into journalism?

So I was a teenager and I really really wanted to be seen and heard, you know. I wanted to be seen and heard my whole life. I mean from some of my memories and the book, I talk about how starting at about five years old, I had this invisible cameraman that started following me around everywhere. And I would talk to my invisible cameraman and be like, did you just see that? I hope you got a shot at that. That was crazy, you know. And so I've had to in writing the book analyze what was that phenomenon I was doing. And I think it was wanting to be validated, wanting to be seen and heard, and installing some like witness to my life. I was an only child, so I was lonely some of the time, and I think I wanted, like, I don't know, supervision or a witness or something. And so I always had that dream to be seen and heard, and then it crystallized when I was fifteen. I was watching Phil Donnie, who was who was like the quintessential talk show host of you know, the eighties, and he was running around his studio with a microphone, and he just looked so energetic and relevant and powerful, and I thought, what's that job called? And somebody told me it's called broadcast journalists and I was like, oh, I want to be a broadcast journalist. That moment on, I just set my sights on that and looked for schools and majored in broadcast journalism and decided that.

So I was a teenager and I really really wanted to be seen and heard, you know. I wanted to be seen and heard my whole life. I mean from some of my memories and the book, I talk about how starting at about five years old, I had this invisible cameraman that started following me around everywhere. And I would talk to my invisible cameraman and be like, did you just see that? I hope you got a shot at that. That was crazy, you know. And so I've had to in writing the book analyze what was that phenomenon I was doing. And I think it was wanting to be validated, wanting to be seen and heard, and installing some like witness to my life. I was an only child, so I was lonely some of the time, and I think I wanted, like, I don't know, supervision or a witness or something. And so I always had that dream to be seen and heard, and then it crystallized when I was fifteen. I was watching Phil Donnie, who was who was like the quintessential talk show host of you know, the eighties, and he was running around his studio with a microphone, and he just looked so energetic and relevant and powerful, and I thought, what's that job called? And somebody told me it's called broadcast journalists and I was like, oh, I want to be a broadcast journalist. That moment on, I just set my sights on that and looked for schools and majored in broadcast journalism and decided that.

Was for me. That's so cool. Back in just a minute. But here's a word from our sponsors. Something I'm really curious about as a journalism fan is the the difference is between these big networks, and you've been at the biggest. You know, you worked at Fox for years prior to joining CNN in twenty fourteen. Was it, because again you said earlier, you know sometimes people will look at you up there as an anchor and think it's all easy. Was it totally bonkers to move from one news network to Arrival? What was that experience like for you? Behind the scenes?

Was for me. That's so cool. Back in just a minute. But here's a word from our sponsors. Something I'm really curious about as a journalism fan is the the difference is between these big networks, and you've been at the biggest. You know, you worked at Fox for years prior to joining CNN in twenty fourteen. Was it, because again you said earlier, you know sometimes people will look at you up there as an anchor and think it's all easy. Was it totally bonkers to move from one news network to Arrival? What was that experience like for you? Behind the scenes?

It was bonkers. I mean it was bonkers, not just because I've moved from one network two Arrival, because I think the people can go from ABC News to NBC News or NBC to CBS and it not being as much of a culture shock. Going from Box to CNN was a particularly you know, daring, hat trick or whatever you want to call that. You know, backbend, I felt personally that my journalism skills were portable, that I tried to do good journalism at Fox. I tried to always have the facts. I tried to come equipped with the evidence for whoever I was interviewing, and I just transferred my skills to CNN. So for me, it wasn't like I didn't feel I had to relearn anything. But I think it was total cognitive dissonance for the viewers because to them, Fox has trained people to think that you're on a team. You know, Fox is really a tribe, and they made news kind of tribal in a way that it had never been before. You know, people didn't it wasn't like you were making a life choice if you switched from CBS to NBC. But Fox really had hardcore followers. So it felt like, I think a betrayal to the viewers, and I had to kind of educate them. I mean, some of them have been so kind I must say to me, and have you know, reached out on social media or whatever saying they missed me and they loved me on there, and I've really appreciated that, and I had to kind of educate them and say, like, I'm doing the same thing I always did, and I didn't want to be part of a team. I just wanted to help people tell their stories. And so you know, for me, it wasn't at shocking, but not many people do it.

It was bonkers. I mean it was bonkers, not just because I've moved from one network two Arrival, because I think the people can go from ABC News to NBC News or NBC to CBS and it not being as much of a culture shock. Going from Box to CNN was a particularly you know, daring, hat trick or whatever you want to call that. You know, backbend, I felt personally that my journalism skills were portable, that I tried to do good journalism at Fox. I tried to always have the facts. I tried to come equipped with the evidence for whoever I was interviewing, and I just transferred my skills to CNN. So for me, it wasn't like I didn't feel I had to relearn anything. But I think it was total cognitive dissonance for the viewers because to them, Fox has trained people to think that you're on a team. You know, Fox is really a tribe, and they made news kind of tribal in a way that it had never been before. You know, people didn't it wasn't like you were making a life choice if you switched from CBS to NBC. But Fox really had hardcore followers. So it felt like, I think a betrayal to the viewers, and I had to kind of educate them. I mean, some of them have been so kind I must say to me, and have you know, reached out on social media or whatever saying they missed me and they loved me on there, and I've really appreciated that, and I had to kind of educate them and say, like, I'm doing the same thing I always did, and I didn't want to be part of a team. I just wanted to help people tell their stories. And so you know, for me, it wasn't at shocking, but not many people do it.

Yeah, well, I think it's actually quite when I have examined my own thoughts about it, as I've observed the transition. For you, I actually think it's hopeful because, as you said, Fox has made the news so tribal, and you know, maybe not everybody knows this, but those of us who are obsessed with the news do that. You know, they've been sued in court for lying to viewers, and their lawyers say, well, any any sober news viewer knows were not a news program. We're an opinion show. And I go like, oh my god, this is the legal defense in court. What is happening here? And I find it really refreshing that as a journalist you can say I'm doing journalism everywhere and anywhere. I'm not going to abide by this very strange development into tribal coverage. And you know you've talked about this, so I hope it's okay for me to ask. But you talked so inspiringly about what you faced at Fox. You were one of many women there who faced sexual harassment and abuse. And I've been so inspired by the way you all talked about that, because my coworkers on my first show and I and many of us on my next show had to talk about this stuff as well. Was that part of why you wanted to leave? Or was it that it was getting so tribal that you didn't want to be there anymore? Or was it sort of just a whole package of this is awful I got to go.

Yeah, well, I think it's actually quite when I have examined my own thoughts about it, as I've observed the transition. For you, I actually think it's hopeful because, as you said, Fox has made the news so tribal, and you know, maybe not everybody knows this, but those of us who are obsessed with the news do that. You know, they've been sued in court for lying to viewers, and their lawyers say, well, any any sober news viewer knows were not a news program. We're an opinion show. And I go like, oh my god, this is the legal defense in court. What is happening here? And I find it really refreshing that as a journalist you can say I'm doing journalism everywhere and anywhere. I'm not going to abide by this very strange development into tribal coverage. And you know you've talked about this, so I hope it's okay for me to ask. But you talked so inspiringly about what you faced at Fox. You were one of many women there who faced sexual harassment and abuse. And I've been so inspired by the way you all talked about that, because my coworkers on my first show and I and many of us on my next show had to talk about this stuff as well. Was that part of why you wanted to leave? Or was it that it was getting so tribal that you didn't want to be there anymore? Or was it sort of just a whole package of this is awful I got to go.

I think it got worse. I think that it got worse as Bo's got more successful. I think that Roger ails that the boss for whom I worked, felt that he saw what the audience wanted, and what he started doing was giving the audience what they wanted at the expense of truth, at the expense of facts, because what to him, the best currency, the biggest currency, was winning and ratings. And sure, we all like ratings, I get it, that's the business model. However, at what cost? And so he started, you know, allowing different you know, presenters. I don't want to call them anchors because they they at Fox. They use this language as though they're a news network, but they don't follow the rules of newsporkers. Of course, the viewers don't know that because nobody is giving them a tutorial on journalism and one on one and exactly what the rules of journalism are. But they don't use solid sources or credible sources as we found out with the dominion lawsuit, as you just referenced, and they end up having to pay seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars as a result of not using credible sources. So that just isn't allowed at other networks because there are rules of journalism, for one. So the idea that just keep giving the audience what they want, keep giving the viewers what they want, it ends up hurting obviously the viewers because the viewers don't end up knowing the truth. And when lo and behold somebody like Donald Trump says that he actually won the election but he lost by seven million, they take up arms and show up at the capital. So I mean it has a real life, immediate clause and effect. It's bad for everybody. I mean, people are in prison right now because they believed those lawes. So I could say that Roger, you know, I would get in trouble there because he didn't like when I would point out, I don't know, positive benefits or how many people would benefit from Obamacare, he just stop talking about that. I was like, and he told me, like when I would say how many people were uninsured, he would be like, use a different no number, a lower number. I was like, what where you getting your numbers? You know? And so I didn't like that. It was totally untethered from reality. I wasn't comfortable with that ever. And to frankly, the sexual harassment stuff, which is gross, wasn't even half of it. I mean, I just didn't. I didn't buy into the mission statement anymore of kind of tricking the viewers to just to keep them coming back from more and keeping them outraged. I don't. I didn't think any of that was helpful. And I would say history has proven that I was right.

I think it got worse. I think that it got worse as Bo's got more successful. I think that Roger ails that the boss for whom I worked, felt that he saw what the audience wanted, and what he started doing was giving the audience what they wanted at the expense of truth, at the expense of facts, because what to him, the best currency, the biggest currency, was winning and ratings. And sure, we all like ratings, I get it, that's the business model. However, at what cost? And so he started, you know, allowing different you know, presenters. I don't want to call them anchors because they they at Fox. They use this language as though they're a news network, but they don't follow the rules of newsporkers. Of course, the viewers don't know that because nobody is giving them a tutorial on journalism and one on one and exactly what the rules of journalism are. But they don't use solid sources or credible sources as we found out with the dominion lawsuit, as you just referenced, and they end up having to pay seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars as a result of not using credible sources. So that just isn't allowed at other networks because there are rules of journalism, for one. So the idea that just keep giving the audience what they want, keep giving the viewers what they want, it ends up hurting obviously the viewers because the viewers don't end up knowing the truth. And when lo and behold somebody like Donald Trump says that he actually won the election but he lost by seven million, they take up arms and show up at the capital. So I mean it has a real life, immediate clause and effect. It's bad for everybody. I mean, people are in prison right now because they believed those lawes. So I could say that Roger, you know, I would get in trouble there because he didn't like when I would point out, I don't know, positive benefits or how many people would benefit from Obamacare, he just stop talking about that. I was like, and he told me, like when I would say how many people were uninsured, he would be like, use a different no number, a lower number. I was like, what where you getting your numbers? You know? And so I didn't like that. It was totally untethered from reality. I wasn't comfortable with that ever. And to frankly, the sexual harassment stuff, which is gross, wasn't even half of it. I mean, I just didn't. I didn't buy into the mission statement anymore of kind of tricking the viewers to just to keep them coming back from more and keeping them outraged. I don't. I didn't think any of that was helpful. And I would say history has proven that I was right.

Absolutely. That has to feel nice, well except that, I mean it's a mess.

Absolutely. That has to feel nice, well except that, I mean it's a mess.

Yeah, it's a mess, I mean, but for you individually, I can't make that much joy in being vindicated because it's well it's gone to hell. I mean that the whole business model, as I said, has been so pernicious on so many levels that the fact that I was right doesn't feel that great, and which is why I try. I'm so glad you're asking me about it, because I do try to talk about it wherever I can, hoping that it can permeate the different silos. But I don't really know that I'm being that effective. It's just a sole voice about this.

Yeah, it's a mess, I mean, but for you individually, I can't make that much joy in being vindicated because it's well it's gone to hell. I mean that the whole business model, as I said, has been so pernicious on so many levels that the fact that I was right doesn't feel that great, and which is why I try. I'm so glad you're asking me about it, because I do try to talk about it wherever I can, hoping that it can permeate the different silos. But I don't really know that I'm being that effective. It's just a sole voice about this.

Well, it's an awfully hard golias to go up against, and you know what you're referencing. The sort of image I get is it's like they created this immensely toxic thing and the trains left the station. Like you can't really close Pandora's box once you open it. And I think we as a society will have a lot of work to do to reprioritize truth and we kind of have to build the plane while we're flying it, and that's a bit scary. But I'm so grateful that you know, you're talking about this every chance you get, because you're right. You know, people need to know and they do need to understand the difference and the legal loopholes that some folks like Roger Ayls have used for so long to try to trick people, to try to create this tribalism, which you know, we've seen these really detrimental side effects of. Was it? I understand, you know, I think anyway, I understand the immense pressure you must have felt at times, you know, when being told change the numbers. Don't talk about the benefits of healthcare. I'm sure they hated, you know, the simple data point that it actually costs us so much more money in the US to just not ensure everyone, but it would to have universal health care. I'm sure that wasn't a popular.

Well, it's an awfully hard golias to go up against, and you know what you're referencing. The sort of image I get is it's like they created this immensely toxic thing and the trains left the station. Like you can't really close Pandora's box once you open it. And I think we as a society will have a lot of work to do to reprioritize truth and we kind of have to build the plane while we're flying it, and that's a bit scary. But I'm so grateful that you know, you're talking about this every chance you get, because you're right. You know, people need to know and they do need to understand the difference and the legal loopholes that some folks like Roger Ayls have used for so long to try to trick people, to try to create this tribalism, which you know, we've seen these really detrimental side effects of. Was it? I understand, you know, I think anyway, I understand the immense pressure you must have felt at times, you know, when being told change the numbers. Don't talk about the benefits of healthcare. I'm sure they hated, you know, the simple data point that it actually costs us so much more money in the US to just not ensure everyone, but it would to have universal health care. I'm sure that wasn't a popular.

I supposed to stifle that? Was it?

I supposed to stifle that? Was it?

How though? As because these are grand ideas, and these are big truths and they affect the nation, but you're still just a singular human. How did you navigate your personal experience of being in that rock and a hard place where you were told not to tell the truth on air, or or you were asked to say things that went against you know, what you know to be true and what you believe in. Was it? Was it just so immensely conflicting?

How though? As because these are grand ideas, and these are big truths and they affect the nation, but you're still just a singular human. How did you navigate your personal experience of being in that rock and a hard place where you were told not to tell the truth on air, or or you were asked to say things that went against you know, what you know to be true and what you believe in. Was it? Was it just so immensely conflicting?

Yeah, it was. It was really hard. The way I did it was I would just try to be armed with facts every time before I went on the air. So I did a four hour weekend show, and I just really mean, and it started at six am, So I mean, from three am to six am, I would just be with my producer trying to research the hell out of every one of the topics that we would be covering, or any of you that i'd be doing, just so that I could you know, I knew that we didn't have yet, I knew we had guests that often fudged the facts. So I would try to be armed to be able to say, actually, what the Bureau of Labor Statistics says is this, you know? And I would try to do that the best I could. But I also felt badly for my producers because they knew the same marching orders. And there are a ton of I really liked the people at Fox. There are a ton of good people at Fox. There are a ton of people who are just trying to get a paycheck and feed their families and pay their mortgage, and they like they're willing to go along with the party line because they have bigger fish to fry and they're at lives and so I knew that they were having to take the heat. You know, Roger ails would call into the control room and say like, tell her to stop saying that, or tell her to say this, and then they would frantically get in my ear and tell me to say something. I'm like, show me the facts and I'm happy to say it. Bring me the facts and I'll say it, and they would be like, Roger's gonna call again. There was so much everybody was you know, Roger ruled with an iron fist, and there's a lot of fear with that kind of leadership. It's not collaborative. So it was a challenge. It was definitely a challenge, and I didn't always I don't want to pretend that I always did it right. I didn't. There were definitely times that I too echoed the talking points when I didn't have all the facts buttoned up, or I just wanted it to be easier and not have to be called onto the carpet by Roger. So it's a challenge. I mean, basically, it's what happens when you have, you know, somebody with kind of tyrannical thinking and all the soldiers fall online. I mean, it's funny how quickly you can be co opted by that power structure.

Yeah, it was. It was really hard. The way I did it was I would just try to be armed with facts every time before I went on the air. So I did a four hour weekend show, and I just really mean, and it started at six am, So I mean, from three am to six am, I would just be with my producer trying to research the hell out of every one of the topics that we would be covering, or any of you that i'd be doing, just so that I could you know, I knew that we didn't have yet, I knew we had guests that often fudged the facts. So I would try to be armed to be able to say, actually, what the Bureau of Labor Statistics says is this, you know? And I would try to do that the best I could. But I also felt badly for my producers because they knew the same marching orders. And there are a ton of I really liked the people at Fox. There are a ton of good people at Fox. There are a ton of people who are just trying to get a paycheck and feed their families and pay their mortgage, and they like they're willing to go along with the party line because they have bigger fish to fry and they're at lives and so I knew that they were having to take the heat. You know, Roger ails would call into the control room and say like, tell her to stop saying that, or tell her to say this, and then they would frantically get in my ear and tell me to say something. I'm like, show me the facts and I'm happy to say it. Bring me the facts and I'll say it, and they would be like, Roger's gonna call again. There was so much everybody was you know, Roger ruled with an iron fist, and there's a lot of fear with that kind of leadership. It's not collaborative. So it was a challenge. It was definitely a challenge, and I didn't always I don't want to pretend that I always did it right. I didn't. There were definitely times that I too echoed the talking points when I didn't have all the facts buttoned up, or I just wanted it to be easier and not have to be called onto the carpet by Roger. So it's a challenge. I mean, basically, it's what happens when you have, you know, somebody with kind of tyrannical thinking and all the soldiers fall online. I mean, it's funny how quickly you can be co opted by that power structure.

Well, and we've just seen it historically over and over and over again. So I think it is why it's so important for us to talk about ways that we figure out how to tell the truth. Has it been an immense relief once I guess the culture Chok were off move over to CNN? Is it a completely different ship? I mean, I know that even last year there was some controversy about how it was supposedly moving more right because of you know, whomever bought it. I feel like I can't keep track of what corporations are you know, overtaking what conglomerates anymore. But you're there, so can you tell us what it's like?

Well, and we've just seen it historically over and over and over again. So I think it is why it's so important for us to talk about ways that we figure out how to tell the truth. Has it been an immense relief once I guess the culture Chok were off move over to CNN? Is it a completely different ship? I mean, I know that even last year there was some controversy about how it was supposedly moving more right because of you know, whomever bought it. I feel like I can't keep track of what corporations are you know, overtaking what conglomerates anymore. But you're there, so can you tell us what it's like?

Yeah? I mean basically, the wonderful thing about STANN is that it's always fact based, so it doesn't matter which boss comes in or comes out. I mean, obviously we all have our favorites, and we all have the people that we work well with, but the mission statement has never changed. So you still follow the rules of journalism, you still have your facts all shown up, you still are fact checking. We have on staff fact checkers, we have standards and practices and actual office that make sure we're following the rules of journalism, which Box doesn't have, and so all of that that was still in play regardless of what whatever flucks you know, we're going through, And so that is comforting, I mean, just to be able to get back to the rules and never to have any boss. I've now had three different bosses at CNN. Ever have any boss call me and say like, no, I want you to say it this way.

Yeah? I mean basically, the wonderful thing about STANN is that it's always fact based, so it doesn't matter which boss comes in or comes out. I mean, obviously we all have our favorites, and we all have the people that we work well with, but the mission statement has never changed. So you still follow the rules of journalism, you still have your facts all shown up, you still are fact checking. We have on staff fact checkers, we have standards and practices and actual office that make sure we're following the rules of journalism, which Box doesn't have, and so all of that that was still in play regardless of what whatever flucks you know, we're going through, And so that is comforting, I mean, just to be able to get back to the rules and never to have any boss. I've now had three different bosses at CNN. Ever have any boss call me and say like, no, I want you to say it this way.

Wow, that is lovely to hear as a watcher of the news. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. What pressure do you feel or is it just sort of something you don't even notice anymore being the person who sits like this across from us and delivers the news into our homes every day. Does it uptick during an election year or is that when everybody puts their heads down and really cancels out the noise. I wonder what it's like on the inside.

Wow, that is lovely to hear as a watcher of the news. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. What pressure do you feel or is it just sort of something you don't even notice anymore being the person who sits like this across from us and delivers the news into our homes every day. Does it uptick during an election year or is that when everybody puts their heads down and really cancels out the noise. I wonder what it's like on the inside.

I think it's starting in about I got to see it in twenty fourteen, and in fifteen when Donald Trump started running, I really realized, like, oh good, my skills of having to research every morning and make sure that I'm totally spot on and have all the facts buttoned up are really going to come in handy here, because you know, he would say so many contradictory things, and so I already had the skill set to know if I was interviewing him or one of his surrogates or whoever was running. I mean, you know, I did the same practice whether it was Hillary Clinton, whether it was Ben Carson that I was interviewing, you know, And so I felt very equipped by then to interview them. And I certainly felt during COVID, I really felt my purpose. You know, I felt the purpose every morning of us as journalists being the first voice you hear, and I knew that everybody was waking up and going, okay, how many people have died, how many people are hospitalized? Hospitals run out of beds, How close are we to a vaccine? Is the FGG I get a fast track it? Like, I knew that everybody was counting on us for real important information every day. So even when I was tired, I just felt For the past many years, ten nine years, I have felt the you know, there were times in my career where we would do some happy talk and some you know, funny kickers and all this stuff and I love that stuff, but the news has gotten really serious in the past nine years, and I've definitely felt kind of the responsibility that i have to the viewers. So I wouldn't say it's pressure. I would say it's purpose. And that has been a good feeling.

I think it's starting in about I got to see it in twenty fourteen, and in fifteen when Donald Trump started running, I really realized, like, oh good, my skills of having to research every morning and make sure that I'm totally spot on and have all the facts buttoned up are really going to come in handy here, because you know, he would say so many contradictory things, and so I already had the skill set to know if I was interviewing him or one of his surrogates or whoever was running. I mean, you know, I did the same practice whether it was Hillary Clinton, whether it was Ben Carson that I was interviewing, you know, And so I felt very equipped by then to interview them. And I certainly felt during COVID, I really felt my purpose. You know, I felt the purpose every morning of us as journalists being the first voice you hear, and I knew that everybody was waking up and going, okay, how many people have died, how many people are hospitalized? Hospitals run out of beds, How close are we to a vaccine? Is the FGG I get a fast track it? Like, I knew that everybody was counting on us for real important information every day. So even when I was tired, I just felt For the past many years, ten nine years, I have felt the you know, there were times in my career where we would do some happy talk and some you know, funny kickers and all this stuff and I love that stuff, but the news has gotten really serious in the past nine years, and I've definitely felt kind of the responsibility that i have to the viewers. So I wouldn't say it's pressure. I would say it's purpose. And that has been a good feeling.

That's so special. What what would you say, you know, as the expert, what would you say to voters who feel confused about what news outlets they can trust because we have seen such a proliferic of misinformation. There are you know, targeted disinformation campaigns that people are spending a whole lot of money on to try to confuse folks. And you know, it really seems like the untruth travel around the Internet very quickly, and it's very hard to clean them up. So, you know, somebody who really knows the inside baseball here, what would you say to folks who are feeling scared about where to turn for trusted information?

That's so special. What what would you say, you know, as the expert, what would you say to voters who feel confused about what news outlets they can trust because we have seen such a proliferic of misinformation. There are you know, targeted disinformation campaigns that people are spending a whole lot of money on to try to confuse folks. And you know, it really seems like the untruth travel around the Internet very quickly, and it's very hard to clean them up. So, you know, somebody who really knows the inside baseball here, what would you say to folks who are feeling scared about where to turn for trusted information?

Yeah, I don't blame them. It's really hard. It's a delugege of information. It's too much information. It's like the fire hose that people are drinking from every morning. And don't blame them for not understanding which ones are legitimate, which ones aren't. Legitimate I think is we're in a really tough time right now. I mean, I try to tell people you must go to a trusted news that has a track record of winning journalism awards, of winning Bulletzer Prize, of winning you know, the Edward R. Merrall Awards, like they have a track record, and they you must go to a place where if they get it wrong. Because we're all human, so obviously we do get it wrong sometimes. But one of the tenets of journalism is you disclose it when you get it wrong, and you apologize and you say responsibility. And Fox doesn't do that, but the viewers don't know that because Fox doesn't report that they had to pay the seven hundred and eighty seven million two dominion, so your viewers don't know that. So it's very, very hard to make inroads in those silos because people don't understand that. And so I mean, I in other words, it's not to me. It's not about a political spectrum. You know, there are obviously more conservative, excellent journalistic newspapers and places, and more progressive, but it's just about which ones are fact based. But it's really hard to feel I mean, we're living in a very kind of surreal time, and it's dangerous and I don't know how to get people to understand the difference in some you know, craft pot website that they're looking at versus real news right.

Yeah, I don't blame them. It's really hard. It's a delugege of information. It's too much information. It's like the fire hose that people are drinking from every morning. And don't blame them for not understanding which ones are legitimate, which ones aren't. Legitimate I think is we're in a really tough time right now. I mean, I try to tell people you must go to a trusted news that has a track record of winning journalism awards, of winning Bulletzer Prize, of winning you know, the Edward R. Merrall Awards, like they have a track record, and they you must go to a place where if they get it wrong. Because we're all human, so obviously we do get it wrong sometimes. But one of the tenets of journalism is you disclose it when you get it wrong, and you apologize and you say responsibility. And Fox doesn't do that, but the viewers don't know that because Fox doesn't report that they had to pay the seven hundred and eighty seven million two dominion, so your viewers don't know that. So it's very, very hard to make inroads in those silos because people don't understand that. And so I mean, I in other words, it's not to me. It's not about a political spectrum. You know, there are obviously more conservative, excellent journalistic newspapers and places, and more progressive, but it's just about which ones are fact based. But it's really hard to feel I mean, we're living in a very kind of surreal time, and it's dangerous and I don't know how to get people to understand the difference in some you know, craft pot website that they're looking at versus real news right.

Well, and this is such a layer on top of the already very draining experience of working in the media. You know, you talk about purpose and that sort of fulfillment, which is so beautiful, and it's tough. You know, when you have to be on the air at six am, so you're up at three, it shifts your whole life. You know, what you're available for, what things you get to participate in with your family or friends. It really does become the thing your world has to revolve around. So how do you recharge? How do you set boundaries? You know, for yourself? As Alison before, you have to then go up and be the person we turned to for coverage.

Well, and this is such a layer on top of the already very draining experience of working in the media. You know, you talk about purpose and that sort of fulfillment, which is so beautiful, and it's tough. You know, when you have to be on the air at six am, so you're up at three, it shifts your whole life. You know, what you're available for, what things you get to participate in with your family or friends. It really does become the thing your world has to revolve around. So how do you recharge? How do you set boundaries? You know, for yourself? As Alison before, you have to then go up and be the person we turned to for coverage.

When I was doing the morning show, which I did for almost seven years at CNN, and I did it for many many years before that at Fox, it was really energetically hard for me. There are some people who were mourning people. I'm not one of them.

When I was doing the morning show, which I did for almost seven years at CNN, and I did it for many many years before that at Fox, it was really energetically hard for me. There are some people who were mourning people. I'm not one of them.

Oh me neither.

Oh me neither.

It was really hard to be on my A game and to have that much energy. So but I would do it again because I do love my career and I did feel the purpose of it. So when the red light would go on at six in the morning, I was present. I was there. We had lots of I always looked for kind of the moment that broke through the screen, you know, the moment of spontaneity, the joke between my co anchor and me, the moment that a guest said something that was so profound or that was so news making or whatever. And there were each show was riddled with those things. So I got a lot of like sustenance, you know, from six am to nine am, and then at nine oh one, I would like stagger off the set and make it to my office and fall like face first onto the sofa and just sleep, like talk about the the underbelly, you know, the the unglamorous side of what you were thinking about, like movie making. If anybody came, I'm like sleeping, you know, like on something with like full face of makeup, like in my clothing, And that's how I would deal with it. I would just try to get the two hours of sleep that I hadn't gotten at night, and then I would be able to go home and be with my family, but I never felt fully present, like fully energetically present with my family. And so after you know, almost seven years, it's in and I had to I just physically wanted to stop, and I wanted to move to a different day part in the afternoon because it's just really hard for me. And so I don't know how, like you know, the Katie Kirks of the world did it for so long. It was it was It was a total ass kicker.

It was really hard to be on my A game and to have that much energy. So but I would do it again because I do love my career and I did feel the purpose of it. So when the red light would go on at six in the morning, I was present. I was there. We had lots of I always looked for kind of the moment that broke through the screen, you know, the moment of spontaneity, the joke between my co anchor and me, the moment that a guest said something that was so profound or that was so news making or whatever. And there were each show was riddled with those things. So I got a lot of like sustenance, you know, from six am to nine am, and then at nine oh one, I would like stagger off the set and make it to my office and fall like face first onto the sofa and just sleep, like talk about the the underbelly, you know, the the unglamorous side of what you were thinking about, like movie making. If anybody came, I'm like sleeping, you know, like on something with like full face of makeup, like in my clothing, And that's how I would deal with it. I would just try to get the two hours of sleep that I hadn't gotten at night, and then I would be able to go home and be with my family, but I never felt fully present, like fully energetically present with my family. And so after you know, almost seven years, it's in and I had to I just physically wanted to stop, and I wanted to move to a different day part in the afternoon because it's just really hard for me. And so I don't know how, like you know, the Katie Kirks of the world did it for so long. It was it was It was a total ass kicker.

Yeah, what are some of your favorite memories when you think back over the course of your career. What are the things that jump to mind, you know, stories or places you've traveled that still just make you feel excited.

Yeah, what are some of your favorite memories when you think back over the course of your career. What are the things that jump to mind, you know, stories or places you've traveled that still just make you feel excited.

Well, I did love the chemistry with my co hosts. In general, I've really liked my co hosts and in general, they've really made me laugh and there have been special spontaneous moments and that you know, forges a real bond. So John Berman and I did the morning show together, and we you know, we still He'll he'll text me one word and we'll laugh as directly because I know exactly what he's talking about. Or I'll text him some memory and we you know, we laugh like that's it's because you're together, you know, so early in the morning. It's a pretty intimate bond that you have these guys. So I always enjoyed that. And then one of the things that I really liked is that I got to meet some of my childhood idols. You know, I had the privilege of being able to interview some of these guys who were on my wall in posters, you know, growing up. And like if I could have told ten year old Allison that she would be interviewing kiss you know who I had the poster of in my bedroom, I would have been so excited. And I was so excited, Like when any of those guys, any of the people that I admired from Afar as a child, came in, I was giddy, basically, like David Cassidy, who you're too young to know, but he was in the Partridge family and he was a heart throb and he I loved him so much. I was like skipping around him when he came in. And it had been a few decades since David Cassidy like a fangirl, like super fanning, and he was I believe scared at my.

Well, I did love the chemistry with my co hosts. In general, I've really liked my co hosts and in general, they've really made me laugh and there have been special spontaneous moments and that you know, forges a real bond. So John Berman and I did the morning show together, and we you know, we still He'll he'll text me one word and we'll laugh as directly because I know exactly what he's talking about. Or I'll text him some memory and we you know, we laugh like that's it's because you're together, you know, so early in the morning. It's a pretty intimate bond that you have these guys. So I always enjoyed that. And then one of the things that I really liked is that I got to meet some of my childhood idols. You know, I had the privilege of being able to interview some of these guys who were on my wall in posters, you know, growing up. And like if I could have told ten year old Allison that she would be interviewing kiss you know who I had the poster of in my bedroom, I would have been so excited. And I was so excited, Like when any of those guys, any of the people that I admired from Afar as a child, came in, I was giddy, basically, like David Cassidy, who you're too young to know, but he was in the Partridge family and he was a heart throb and he I loved him so much. I was like skipping around him when he came in. And it had been a few decades since David Cassidy like a fangirl, like super fanning, and he was I believe scared at my.

Yeah, it is always a little hard when you have those moments and you're like, I'm supposed to be cool because I'm also on TV, but I can't be. No, Hello, and now for our sponsors. So I love hearing the personal anecdotes. It's so fun. How did you or maybe how do you think about the differences between Alice and the journalist and Alice and the author because you talk about you know, I've read so many articles and watched some interviews with you talking about what it was like to write this memoir and combat love is so beautiful, and you know you're not covering someone's story. This is your story and it's so vulnerable and it's it's so important. But how did you reconcile opening up like this? Do you feel like your training as a journalist made you ready for more of being exposed and sharing or is it totally terrifying and exciting and you're learning as you go.

Yeah, it is always a little hard when you have those moments and you're like, I'm supposed to be cool because I'm also on TV, but I can't be. No, Hello, and now for our sponsors. So I love hearing the personal anecdotes. It's so fun. How did you or maybe how do you think about the differences between Alice and the journalist and Alice and the author because you talk about you know, I've read so many articles and watched some interviews with you talking about what it was like to write this memoir and combat love is so beautiful, and you know you're not covering someone's story. This is your story and it's so vulnerable and it's it's so important. But how did you reconcile opening up like this? Do you feel like your training as a journalist made you ready for more of being exposed and sharing or is it totally terrifying and exciting and you're learning as you go.

Well, thank you for saying all that. I really appreciate that it was at first terrifying. At first, the concept of it was terrifying, So I knew I wanted to write it because I felt that I had to write it for my own closure, and I have a lot of different pieces rattling around in my head from my childhood and my teenage years that felt unfinished, and so I knew that I wanted to write it and put it in a timeline and have it chronologically make sense to me and understand my own personal arc. But that's a very different exercise than publishing it. So I write it and I did that, and I at first was like, you know, really scared that to publish it, because I thought, who wants to see the diary pages of their anchor? Like anchors in particular, I think are sort of neutered, no it all. And so I thought, like, it's gross if you peel back the curtain too far on your news anchor, because as we all learned with Matt Lauer, we don't want to know any sordid details of their life and if they're imperfect, because the present can look so seamless and as I said, polish. So I was thinking that it wouldn't be a good idea, and then I wrote it, and I just wrote, and I liked that exercise of writing it, and it was helpful to me. And as I said, with some news stories, some particularly intense, painful news stories. I was asking people to be so vulnerable with me, you know, and Vis Floyd was like so just incredibly profoundly vulnerable and raw, and like I'm asking out of people and I'm still keeping my mask on and my trustee neutral stance. Yeah. I just at some point thought, I think maybe the viewers can handle it. I think maybe they will be able to handle that their you know, polished anchor has a lot of blemishes and a lot of a messy a messy pass that has included some pain, and maybe it will even be helpful in these divided times. Maybe they'll that'll be a bridge somehow. And so I just I don't know. I came to just trust the process more and think that people would like it. And I'm really relieved at how well it's been received, because it turns out that it is a universal story, you know, to a survival story. I mean, everybody has some survival story. They look different, but everybody has one, and it turns out that it's universal, and that's been very comforting to me.

Well, thank you for saying all that. I really appreciate that it was at first terrifying. At first, the concept of it was terrifying, So I knew I wanted to write it because I felt that I had to write it for my own closure, and I have a lot of different pieces rattling around in my head from my childhood and my teenage years that felt unfinished, and so I knew that I wanted to write it and put it in a timeline and have it chronologically make sense to me and understand my own personal arc. But that's a very different exercise than publishing it. So I write it and I did that, and I at first was like, you know, really scared that to publish it, because I thought, who wants to see the diary pages of their anchor? Like anchors in particular, I think are sort of neutered, no it all. And so I thought, like, it's gross if you peel back the curtain too far on your news anchor, because as we all learned with Matt Lauer, we don't want to know any sordid details of their life and if they're imperfect, because the present can look so seamless and as I said, polish. So I was thinking that it wouldn't be a good idea, and then I wrote it, and I just wrote, and I liked that exercise of writing it, and it was helpful to me. And as I said, with some news stories, some particularly intense, painful news stories. I was asking people to be so vulnerable with me, you know, and Vis Floyd was like so just incredibly profoundly vulnerable and raw, and like I'm asking out of people and I'm still keeping my mask on and my trustee neutral stance. Yeah. I just at some point thought, I think maybe the viewers can handle it. I think maybe they will be able to handle that their you know, polished anchor has a lot of blemishes and a lot of a messy a messy pass that has included some pain, and maybe it will even be helpful in these divided times. Maybe they'll that'll be a bridge somehow. And so I just I don't know. I came to just trust the process more and think that people would like it. And I'm really relieved at how well it's been received, because it turns out that it is a universal story, you know, to a survival story. I mean, everybody has some survival story. They look different, but everybody has one, and it turns out that it's universal, and that's been very comforting to me.

Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way to put it, a survival story because, as you mentioned earlier, particularly when you become a public figure, nobody knows what it took you to get there, and you know, learning that you left home at sixteen, you'd have this really complicated relationship, you know, with your mother, and that in many ways, writing this book required you to to really sit down and communicate about your family history. What was that like? Because it sounds incredible and totally wild, what was what was it like for you to go, Okay, mom, we got to sit down and talk about this stuff.

Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way to put it, a survival story because, as you mentioned earlier, particularly when you become a public figure, nobody knows what it took you to get there, and you know, learning that you left home at sixteen, you'd have this really complicated relationship, you know, with your mother, and that in many ways, writing this book required you to to really sit down and communicate about your family history. What was that like? Because it sounds incredible and totally wild, what was what was it like for you to go, Okay, mom, we got to sit down and talk about this stuff.

It was hard, I mean it was hard. She was resistant. My mother was born in nineteen forty. She's literally part of something called the Silent Generation. So I'm Gen X, she's the silent generation, and so now you know, we've the pendulumt has song so far to you know, millennials and gen Z that are quite open and confessional and everything. But it's been a long time coming, you know, to get there. The continuum was the other end for her. So she really didn't want she was she was happy to, not happy to. She was willing to talk to me about it, but she certainly didn't want a lot of it made public, and so it took us years to try to get comfortable with that and to reconcile it. But what my book also includes as a lot of family secrets. You know, both my parents had family secrets that they kept quiet about and so that it turns out, did not help in parenting me. And it turns out that you think you're keeping a secret, and you might think that you've stuffed it down and it's all within you, but it ends up having this, you know, these repercussions on your children, whether you stated or not, something unconscious happens generationally.

It was hard, I mean it was hard. She was resistant. My mother was born in nineteen forty. She's literally part of something called the Silent Generation. So I'm Gen X, she's the silent generation, and so now you know, we've the pendulumt has song so far to you know, millennials and gen Z that are quite open and confessional and everything. But it's been a long time coming, you know, to get there. The continuum was the other end for her. So she really didn't want she was she was happy to, not happy to. She was willing to talk to me about it, but she certainly didn't want a lot of it made public, and so it took us years to try to get comfortable with that and to reconcile it. But what my book also includes as a lot of family secrets. You know, both my parents had family secrets that they kept quiet about and so that it turns out, did not help in parenting me. And it turns out that you think you're keeping a secret, and you might think that you've stuffed it down and it's all within you, but it ends up having this, you know, these repercussions on your children, whether you stated or not, something unconscious happens generationally.

Yeah, And they.

Yeah, And they.

Passed along these kind of confusing puzzle pieces to me where there were pieces missing and I sensed as a child something isn't quite right around here, but I don't know what it is. There are puzzle pieces missing, and I really didn't. I mean I didn't find out about them until I was an adult, you know, until later in life. And it would have been really helpful to communicate actually about some of these things instead of having family secrets.

Passed along these kind of confusing puzzle pieces to me where there were pieces missing and I sensed as a child something isn't quite right around here, but I don't know what it is. There are puzzle pieces missing, and I really didn't. I mean I didn't find out about them until I was an adult, you know, until later in life. And it would have been really helpful to communicate actually about some of these things instead of having family secrets.

Yeah. So how do you learn to do that in real time while you're writing a book. Did you have like a great therapist. Did you have an editor who was helping who helped you knew this?

Yeah. So how do you learn to do that in real time while you're writing a book. Did you have like a great therapist. Did you have an editor who was helping who helped you knew this?

Well, I've had a therapist. I mean, I have relied on therapy, not all the time throughout my life, but definitely at different hard times. And so I know enough about therapy to know that it's helpful. And so when I was going to be talking to my mom about this, I said, I'm going to find a therapist for us to talk this therapy.

Well, I've had a therapist. I mean, I have relied on therapy, not all the time throughout my life, but definitely at different hard times. And so I know enough about therapy to know that it's helpful. And so when I was going to be talking to my mom about this, I said, I'm going to find a therapist for us to talk this therapy.

That's great, because I.

That's great, because I.

Knew that there would be it would be better to have a neutral third voice, you know, because mothers and daughters have you know, can have fraught relationships regardless of how close they are. My mother and I are close, but I knew that that would help, and that did really help. But I also just think that, you know, I didn't write it until I had enough distance and enough maturity and had my own kids and my teenagers, and that helped too. You know, I couldn't obviously have written this book at twenty and I didn't know these twenty But in going back and excavating my life and finding out about the secrets that my mother held and my father held, it's actually given me, you know, tons of closure. I mean, finding missing puzzle pieces is very healing. And what I've been saying on book tour when I go around to people is like, if there's a way that you can find closure. I don't think you have to write a memoir, but if you can find closure with people, do it, because unfinished business will not at you. You know, whether it's your parents, whether it's a sibling, whether it's a past love, whether it's a friendship.

Knew that there would be it would be better to have a neutral third voice, you know, because mothers and daughters have you know, can have fraught relationships regardless of how close they are. My mother and I are close, but I knew that that would help, and that did really help. But I also just think that, you know, I didn't write it until I had enough distance and enough maturity and had my own kids and my teenagers, and that helped too. You know, I couldn't obviously have written this book at twenty and I didn't know these twenty But in going back and excavating my life and finding out about the secrets that my mother held and my father held, it's actually given me, you know, tons of closure. I mean, finding missing puzzle pieces is very healing. And what I've been saying on book tour when I go around to people is like, if there's a way that you can find closure. I don't think you have to write a memoir, but if you can find closure with people, do it, because unfinished business will not at you. You know, whether it's your parents, whether it's a sibling, whether it's a past love, whether it's a friendship.

You know.

You know.

I'm just a big believer in tying up loose ends. I think that that is a much more emotionally and mentally healthier space.

I'm just a big believer in tying up loose ends. I think that that is a much more emotionally and mentally healthier space.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really really good advice. And I imagine these are things you learned in real time while writing this was Was it a cathartic experience?

Yeah. Yeah, it's really really good advice. And I imagine these are things you learned in real time while writing this was Was it a cathartic experience?

Yeah, very It was very cathartic. It was very cathartic to go back and put everything into some order for me rather just floating around my head. And it was cathartic to understand. Now as an adult woman, I have a different perspective on my mother's choices. So my mother moved me from you know what I considered the epicenter of my universe Shrewsbury, New Jersey, to Bellingham, Washington, three thousand miles away, where I knew no one and basically on a whim. And I was very devastated and resentful and you know now talking about it. So she was forty one, she was looking for a new life. I was fifteen, not looking for a new life at all, very much to put down roots in my hometown. And so, you know, I lived that with her, so I knew the story basically, but going back as an adult woman and talking to her about it, about the despair that she was feeling and how trapped she was feeling, you know, obviously it gave me a whole new perspective and that has really help and her hearing you know why it was so devastating to me, all of that has really helped our relationship. And I'm very glad. I mean you've probably heard me say this because I've said it a lot on the book too, But my mother's one, you know, request was can't you wait te Lo, I'm dead? That's what she kept saying. Well, I was writing it, can't you wage long dead? And I'm so glad I did not wait till she was dead, because she ended up being really helpful in putting the pieces together.

Yeah, very It was very cathartic. It was very cathartic to go back and put everything into some order for me rather just floating around my head. And it was cathartic to understand. Now as an adult woman, I have a different perspective on my mother's choices. So my mother moved me from you know what I considered the epicenter of my universe Shrewsbury, New Jersey, to Bellingham, Washington, three thousand miles away, where I knew no one and basically on a whim. And I was very devastated and resentful and you know now talking about it. So she was forty one, she was looking for a new life. I was fifteen, not looking for a new life at all, very much to put down roots in my hometown. And so, you know, I lived that with her, so I knew the story basically, but going back as an adult woman and talking to her about it, about the despair that she was feeling and how trapped she was feeling, you know, obviously it gave me a whole new perspective and that has really help and her hearing you know why it was so devastating to me, all of that has really helped our relationship. And I'm very glad. I mean you've probably heard me say this because I've said it a lot on the book too, But my mother's one, you know, request was can't you wait te Lo, I'm dead? That's what she kept saying. Well, I was writing it, can't you wage long dead? And I'm so glad I did not wait till she was dead, because she ended up being really helpful in putting the pieces together.

That's so cool. You talk a lot in the book about the power of music in your life, and you know, you just were mentioning being the ten year old with the kiss poster on your wall. How how did music influence you as you were writing this. Were there certain artists you listened to or were you going back and like listening to every artist from the time period of the stories you were working on? What was that part of the journey.