Hi everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talk to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Hi everyone, welcome to another special episode of Work in Progress where we will be continuing our video series Need to Know. Each week, I'll be sitting down with experts to get the answers to your most pressing questions about what is going on in the world right now and what we need to know about this pandemic. I am thrilled to introduce you to my guest today. She is often known as Raven the science Maven. She's a woman who continues to crush boundaries placed on people in the STEM field, particularly marginalized populations. She is the brilliant, multitalented Raven Baxter. Raven is an nationally acclaimed science communicator and molecular biologist who works to advance the state of science culture by creating spaces that are inclusive, educational, and real. Raven creates relatable in engaging digital media in the form of science themed rap music videos and social media as a way to teach science online and foster important conversations about STEM culture. She's an inspiration for young, underrepresented students to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering, and math in case you were wondering what STEM stands for, and she is the founder of Stembassy, a science advocacy organization and web series. Raven was also recognized in this year's Fortune Magazines forty forty and is currently completing a pH d in science education, studying the relationship between how the media's representation of scientists impacts how adults identify with science. In my conversation with Raven, we discuss her childhood, her experiences as a corporate scientist, under representation in higher education and STEM, the current state of science culture, the mutation of the COVID nineteen virus and what we need to know about it, and the importance of taking certain safety measures, plus many of her upcoming projects. Enjoy Raven the science may have ben back there. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Um, everyone at home. I have to just fully confess so I can get it out of the way and we can move on. When when Raven and I got on Zoom today, I was like, um, hey, I'm having a real moment. I have watched to wipe it down like seven hundred and sixty or four times. I think you are a legend, and I I fan boyd really hard. So um, I'm really really jazzed that we're going to have a conversation about all things science and STEM and COVID and the world today. Thank you so much for being here, Thank you for having me, Sophia. I'm so glad to be here, even more excited to know you're enjoying my content and can't wait to talk. Yes, I am. I was just so excited when when I was sent your work. My first sort of thought was like, oh my god, she's like she's this rap version like powerhouse Woman, you know, strong black female Bill ny almost. And then when I was reading your bio, you were talking about how um you started creating all your content as a play on Bill and I as as a response to a lack of culturally relevant material that's actually engaging often underrepresented communities and STEM, and I was just like, she's my hero. I can't I have to meet her at some point, And now we're meeting on Zoom and I'm just really stoked about it. Thank you so much. So I gosh, I want to get into your your whole career. Would you actually mind? Will you introduce yourself to the audience so they have a little understanding of your background, and then I'm I'm actually gonna take us in reverse and go backwards before we catch up to where we are today. Okay, sure. So my name is Raven Baxter. I am from Buffalo, New York, and i am a molecular biologist and science communicator, and I'm currently finishing a pH d in science education. And will that be like your hundredth degree? Read? Honestly, I was reading your bio. I was like, cool, cool, she wentto college is sixteen. That's great, That's really super impressive. And I feel like you've just amassed this incredible collection of degrees and specialized studies. Do you feel like, as a scientist you're going to be a student forever? Yeah? I feel like as a scientist we are always asking question students and exploring the world around us. And I think for me personally, it was always important to just keep trying new things. And I wasn't always successful at everything I tried, and I didn't always like everything that I tried, Like, for example, I went to space camp wanting to be an astronaut and then found out I was afraid of heights at space camp. So but the important thing for me is that like I put myself out there, and I try new things, and I get new perspectives and keep growing as a person. So I mean, I think scientists as a whole we will always be students, um. But I think for me personally, I always want to grow as a person. M M. Yeah. I Interestingly, I really feel like I relate to that. I think as a kid who always loved science, and and even as an adult, there's aspects of my day job that in a way require social science work. You know, you have to really investigate human behavior and the way that we function. And and I think about even now in a time like this, looking at how the world is reacting to a pandemic and also how the virus itself behaves. We're looking at both human behavior and at viral behavior, at cellular behavior, and it's it's pretty interesting to realize that even across the scientific and emotional spectrums, all things are often so connected. Absolutely, yes, I mean we could look at that from many angles. Obviously, if you don't believe in science, you know, if you don't connect with science at a personal level, then it's hard for you to receive advice from scientists even though they're trying to protect you and help you protect yourself. And I mean, on the other hand, we also know that stressed people are more susceptible to certain diseases, So we have to pay close attention to our mental health so that we can make sure that we stay healthy. So yeah, like, just like you said, our the sociological implications of science, and like our bodies are very connected in a lot of different ways. So coming to this place today where you have many letters after your name, degree after degree, title after title, where you have released an album which includes my favorite science song of all time, Wipe It Down, which I mentioned earlier, where you are writing a children's book and consulting on so many other projects, where you have been named to this Forbes list of powerhouse folks, including Beyonce Casual. How how did we get here? How how did Raven, the little girl who grew up in Buffalo forge this path? Can can you take me back to your childhood, to to eight or maybe ten years old and talk to me about where you found yourself. Were you always into science? You know you said, you went to space camp. Did you know from a young age. I'm so curious about about who you were as a little kid. Uh, baby Raven, he was a character. So for um, So, I think that I came out of the womb as a scientist, to be honest. And there there was no point in time where I looked at myself and said, oh, I should be a scientist. That was always just my natural, um tendency to ask questions about the world around me. And maybe when I was about seven or eight, um, I Well, first I should preface this by saying I learned how to read when I was three years old. I was reading books, so I had been, you know, really hands on learning and actually reading about the world around me. So by the time I was seven, I was like, well, gee, you know, I don't want to read about mother goose. I want to read the dictionary. I want to read the encyclopedia. Um. But I started looking at the sky and asking questions about clouds, and I said, oh, you know, there's all these different types of clouds in the sky. And I read books about clouds and learned that there were different names for clouds. Clouds make different types of weather. Um, and all of these different things, and I kind of started going down that rabbit hole. UM. Eventually I learned everything I could about clouds and then I said, oh, what about outer space? That's past the clouds. And that's how I got into going to space camp and UM. But like I said earlier, I found out I was afraid of heights of space Camp. But one thing that I did learn at space Camp was about all of the different careers that it takes to get someone into space. You need geologists, chemists, physicists, um, biologists, you need gosh, engineers, computer people. All of these different career paths have to come into play when you're working in space industry and to get someone in. So even though I couldn't go to space because I would probably have a mental breakdown, I still had all of these other career paths to explore and that pretty much just sent me on my journey to where I am now as a as a biologist. M M. So when you had that kind of aha moment at space Camp, you realize, Okay, going up there's not going to be for me, but but I still want to work in this arena. Was there a particular type of science when you mentioned, you know, physicists and chemists and engineers, and the list goes on. Was there something that stood out to you as a kid or was it more this idea of I know, I'm going to grow up to be the woman in the white lab coat who is discovering things about the world and innovating. Was it specific or more general but but clear in direction? Well, So, what happened after I came back from space camp and and realized that my dreams were gonna get shattered? Um? I started asking questions of like, well, what does the Earth need? Right? Like, it's cool that we could put people into space, and I'm afraid of going to space. And honestly, like, if I'm going to be doing something, I want to be having the most fun. And I feel like the biggest fun for me personally, I think the most fun part about like working at NASA and playing a role in that organization is going to space, even though there's a ton of other career. So I was like, if I'm not going to space, I don't want to do it. So I came home and I'm like, well, what does the Earth need? If I'm not leaving the Earth, then let's figure out what can I do to help the Earth on on the planet. And I started learning about climate change, and I started learning about um global warming and also like just there were a lot of things, a lot of problems that we had to solve here and planet Earth that I felt like needed to be solved before we went out into space. And um so, I got really deep into environmental science and I actually ended up going to college. I started college at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry as an environmental law and policy major. Um so, pretty much after Space Camp, I was about thirteen years old. Up until I went to college, I was heavily interested in environmental sciences, which is very different from what I do today. So again I had a lot more of finding my way and more journeys, uh to to have after that period of time as well, for sure. And And what was Buffalo like then? Was it a great place to grow up as a kid? Did did you and your family love being there or were you kind of itching to get to, you know, a bigger city. What what was that element for you? Um So, I was born in Buffalo, and I didn't stay in Buffalo for much of my childhood, I moved around a lot, actually went to about ten different schools when I was a kid. Um. So I came back to Buffalo in time for high school and I wanted to just stay right because I had been around all over the place. My childhood was all over the place, and I really had this itching to stay actually and just get my roots and stay put um. And I was actually able to do that. So I'm glad. That's amazing. And now you've actually been tapped by the City of Buffalo. You're doing these social media takeovers of the mayor's Instagram account and challenging young folks who are in the city to stay home and practice social distancing, and and every week features different challenges. And I just think it must be so cool to to be in this position now, to be talking to the teens in your community because you were once a teenager there. And it is that kind of a surreal moment when when you look at you know how far you've come and and to your point, how life sort of led you in that in that cycle to to get back home and really be rooted in in your city. Yeah, you know, And I've never really looked into it like that, but you're absolutely right. Um, it is so heartwarming to see things come full circle. And UM, I think one of the things that I love the most about this is understanding that anybody can work hard to make a connection with their city and people who have power to influence change and create laws and new rules that can help to protect people in the city and also to promote education and knowledge for citizens in the city and beyond even for for bigger institutions. So I was really excited and glad that they reached out to me because I thought it was so cool that they wanted to spread science to the city and perhaps someone come in and engage the citizens of Buffalo. M Well, I have to say, as a person who's not a scientist by training, who always loved science in school and who is still quite fascinated with science, with the universe, space, all all of the sort of stem technologies, really I'm really really inspired by folks uniting behind science because when I think about human history, when I think about innovation, when I think about how we all got here, every good thing that exists on Earth exists because of science and because of scientific research and scientific discovery, and it's such a strange time to watch science be so under attack and to be able to do the research and discover that that this has been a very intentional attack program, that it was launched because of scientific findings about climate change, about big polluter industries, that there has been an active disinformation campaign against science in order to maintain a certain power structure which is dangerous for the Earth and thus dangerous for all of us. And it doesn't matter, by the way, if the all of us is conservative or liberal, or votes one way or another or independent, it doesn't matter. It's it's what's true on the planet for one of us is true for all of us eventually. And so I am really excited when I see initiatives like the one you're taking part in, when a city says, hey, science is very cool and actually quite important and we need to catch up, like we need to make up for some lost ground here and remind people that the are worthy pursuits. You know. I'm I always find myself kind of giggling that people think my job is so cool. You know, Yes, being a storyteller is great, and I I really love it, and I get nerdy on you know, pre uh on the on the human history pre the written word. You know that we passed things down through generations and cultures around the world, you know, through performance, Like I I get again like nerdy kid over here. But to me, working in my in my world, like you guys are the real rock stars. Scientists to me are like the coolest people on planet Earth. Working on healthcare during the Obama administration, I got to meet Bill n I, the science guy, at the White House and I started screaming. I was like, oh my god, and everybody was like, are you okay? But it's like I just I really like my face is turning round. I'm so glad this is a podcast not a video. I am so jazzed about the the work you do and and anything I can ever do to you, know, help you or support you. I'm I'm so here for thank you so much. That means the world to me. Seriously, when you think about all that you've achieved in your career, you know, becoming a molecular scientist, your many degrees studying the field of biology, you're creating culturally responsive programs and stem by the age of and getting a pH d in science education at and you know, a doctoral degree from the graduate School of Education. Like I, I look at your bio and I could read it for the next hour and not be through. What do you think for you? Feels like the core? What's what's the thing that keeps you excite? How? How did you identify biology as your as your most favorite part of science? And and then what has taken you forward to where we meet today? So when I got to college, right, my story is kind of all over the place in many different ways. But um, I started college when I was sixteen. I was very young. I did not do well because I'm very social, and I was able to start college so early because I was academically gifted in high school. And um, but I didn't have to work for it, right, I didn't have to put a lot of effort into getting good grades. I just showed up and did well. And that does not work when you go to college. You actually have to put a lot of effort into what you're doing. And so although I made a lot of friends my firstman year of college as a young sixteen year old, I was also very social and did not have any study plans. I did not really understand you know what that what that life was supposed to look like, and so I actually failed out of college. I failed out of college because I could not keep my grades up and I had to come home, and I attended a community college. And um, I, you know, because of a lot of reasons, I was very motivated to get out of the house. There was a lot of things happening at home that I felt like I needed to kind of figure out how to, you know, get out of the house and go back to school. And so I attended a community college and got my grades up enough to transfer out. And so when I got to the place where I eventually graduated from Buffalo State, UM, I was still interested in environmental science, but I took a genetics class because it was a requirement for my major. And when I took genetics, I I realized that I was learning a language. And I had already already speak too languages. I speak English and Spanish, and so as I was learning genetics, I thought, huh, everything about this is like a language. There's an actual sentence structure to our genes. If if you aren't aware, UM, our genes have like beginnings, middles, and ends right to the way that they're coded. There are promoter regions, which is where all the proteins come and gather to get ready to read the gene. And then there's the gene itself that calls for the information and how to make a new protein. And then there's the end, which is like a terminator sequence, and it's an actual sequence that says stop here. It's like a period. So when I learned that, I was super fascinated, Like, gosh, all of us, everybody in the world, not just humans, all living organisms speak this language, right, Um, but we're all not aware of it. I don't think everybody is aware that that we are also similar like this. And UM, I went down that rabbit hole and I never came out. That is where my love for biology really started. UM, particularly my love for molecular biology, which is something that genetics falls under. Um. Just studying these little components, these molecules that helped to generate our life processes, and UM really connects us all is human beings. That's so beautiful. Thanks. I love that our genes are like sentences, they speak a language. I'm like swooning over here. And I think it's so important. You know, even what you touch on about your story, resiliency and support systems. I couldn't have gone to college at sixteen and had my ship together. There's no way, you know, you don't. You don't know how to do anything yet. And yeah, you were, you were a kid. And what I think is actually really incredible about that is is the sort of precipice you stood on of having this incredible academic prowess. You know, as you mentioned, you excelled at school and got really good grades without much effort because you know, you have a specific kind of brain, and and yet you still had to sort of hurdle the social experience. And I think I've come to be so fascinated by studying resiliency, and I think being able to say, you know, I went from being a college dropout to a PhD scientist is so important to acknowledge. You know. We we live in this culture where failure is so often shunned, but failure is actually a building block to success. And I think if we could all own, you know, all all of our stories in those ways, we would actually get through that stuff. We'd get through our learning. I think more quickly and more holistically. Absolutely, I always tell people don't be afraid to fail, and also don't be afraid to talk about your failures. I think a lot of people like to take their failure secret and tucked away inside, and this image that we're perfect and we don't have to do that. So getting to today being a scientist and a science communicator and making an album and writing a children's book, what what would you say your day in and day out experience is now? What are you studying? Um and and what led you to decide that you needed to start communicating science in in such an approachable way for people? Um So, I think that throughout my life, I've always done science my way, learned science my way, and taught science my way and as my unapologetic self. And that has not always been easy. I've as a as a student, it's always went relatively well for me. I was never challenged because I just wanted to be myself and do science. But as a professional, UM I had many roadblocks. I had many times where people simply just didn't think I belonged in the space as a scientist, or that I was a token, or that gosh, you know, but I didn't look like a scientist and all of these all of these things were things that I was experiencing as a professional, and I realized that we had some real issues in science culture that we needed to address, UM. And so that is where I began to take up space as a science communicator because I wanted to begin sending messages out into the world that literally anybody can do science. And by anybody, I mean like actually like any physical being. Right. You can be big, small, tall, short, purple, green, black, white, like you know from Antarctica from Texas. Anybody can use science, young, old, and everything in between. And UM. That was that was the messaging that I that I had originally intended to share on my platform. And as time went on, especially as the pandemic started, I thought it was incredibly important to use my platform to communicate actual science, um, and not just about the diversity that's needed in science and UM. So that's where Wipe it Down came from. And I had done some other songs and some other music videos ire to that, but that was really my first time saying, hey, guys, you know what, I'm going to be very different. Okay, you probably don't see scientists wrapping, dancing, singing on the internet, but I need to give you this information about COVID nineteen and I need you to remember it, and I want you to listen and also not be afraid, because we're going through a very scary time right now, and I'm just here to make you comfortable and to teach you about the disease. Mm hmm. And I think you're right making things feel approachable, and also the humor through which you do that makes it a little less scary, because it is an incredibly scary time. But information is actually power. Information can remove some of the fear and and give us the tools to stay safe and prioritize care for ourselves and our communities. And being able to do that in a way that also creates joy is something that as a viewer, I'm incredibly thankful for, if you don't mind me asking, because you know you're you refer to it a bit, the the roadblocks that began popping up for you, you know, in the early days of your career as as a professional scientist. And it's not lost on me that all of this social science data says that there's really not many women in STEM, and there are not many people of color and STEM, and so sitting at the intersection of being a black woman, I'm I'm curious can can you let some of the folks who are listening at home in on a bit of what that experience is like. And I do want to be clear, I never want anyone who comes on this show to have to, you know, relive any version of of trauma. And also I want people who listen who may not have had your experience or who may not have a friend with your experience, to to be enlightened a little bit. So I say both of those things only to say that there's no expectation of you know, you having to like share horror stories. But if there's anything that you think could be a teaching moment for anyone that that is comfortable for you to to share with us, I I would love to, you know, offer an audience to to witness your experience, sir um and thank you for that. I I've had as a student, like I said earlier, phenomenal experiences in science, and I've I've had mentors, advisers, professors, you know, friendships that were very um, beneficial and loving and accepting. And so when it came time for me to work outside of the academic setting as a professional and in a corporate setting, UM, I was expecting that I was going to have those same experiences. And in terms of my race and ethnicity, I had always existed in predominantly white environments. I was raised in in Williamsville, UM like Clarence, New York, which is very white. UM. I went to predominantly white colleges and universities, and I had never had any issues with discrimination, with people being unfriendly. So, you know, it was very shocking to me the way that I was being treated as a professional. Because you I thought that, okay, were all adults right by this time in our lives, we all should really understand how to treat each other and how to care for one another. But I wasn't having a very caring and loving experience. UM. So I was the only black woman scientist in my laboratory, and I did my best. You know, I love science, and I was there because I was qualified, and I was passionate about doing science, and I came every day excited about my job. But it really wasn't lost on me that although I was doing my job, I was very lonely. UM. I would be in my lab doing experiments and working hard, and there would be other people in the lab talking to each other. UM. Giving. You know, they were caring for each other. They were having small talk and aiding each other. Hey, you know, let's go, let's get to know each other outside of work. I care about you. What are you doing today? Right? Like? How was your family? Little things like that. Um. I felt like everybody was going the extra mile to get to know each other, but not me. I wasn't being included, and that was that sucked because, as I said before, I'm super social and like I don't have a mean bone in my body. I was trying to, like, you know, make sure that people knew that I was approachable. I was bringing in cupcakes, I was, I was doing a lot. I was really trying, like, hey, maybe these people don't understand that I want to be friends. Let me bring cupcakes. That didn't even work. So, you know, even though that happened, I was still trying my best, still doing my job doing science. And eventually they did hire another um My lab hired another black person at my job, and I said, Okay, maybe they'll talk to me, and they did. Um, but I didn't get a chance to really work with them because they were the custodian, So they didn't hire a black scientist. Um. But also one of my co workers turned to me that day that this person was hired and she said, well, you should be happy because you won't be the token black anymore. Wow. Yeah, that's what she said. And so you know, in that moment, it was it was a huge moment of realization for me because I my worst fear was confirmed, and that even though I was showing up to work every day and I was super excited about being a scientist and like I had been a scientist at heart from childhood and I had gotten my degrees right, and I was hired like I was qualified. Every day I walked into the building, this person and perhaps other people were just looking at me as a token and that nothing that I had accomplished or achieved to get here mattered, and that I was just there for nothing, basically to keep up an image. And that was very, very painful for me. Yeah. So yeah, I don't she didn't say that, I don't think from a bad place in her heart. But the issue was that she thought it was okay to say that, and she wasn't really socially aware to say, oh, you know, I should not say this to Raven. That's not nice that would make her feel bad. UM and I but I also wasn't socially aware to stop her and say, hey, you hurt my feelings. Please don't say that, you know. UM. So there were other things that had happened that were on that same caliber UM of just discrimination and her full experiences that ultimately made me leave UM. But I ended up going into education, and you know, although I still had some weird experiences as an educator, overall it was a very rewarding experience. And I now teach to whoever i'm speaking to UM or whoever i'm educating about social awareness, cultural awareness, and how important it is to UM to understand diversity, inclusion, and and equity so that you can create a sense of belonging for other people who are who you're working with and who you're doing science with. Because ultimately, if we can't retain minorities and science, then we're not We're never going to really be able to achieve diversity because we won't be able to maintain numbers, right. UM. So that's it's very important, and we need we need diversity to be able to make to do good science. Absolutely, I think about it, you know, I obviously have not experienced discrimination as a black woman, but I've gone through it on a gender basis. I know what it's like to be the one woman in the room. And I heard something said a few years ago. This is going to sound round about, but I promise I'll get to a point. So I listened to Oprah interviewing this Catholic nun on Super Soul sunday Um Sister Joan. She's like ninety two years old. And my mom grew up uh in the Catholic Church and didn't have great experiences. So I think I've always been a little wary of of the rigidity of of that particular kind of organized religion. And I really wanted to know, you know, what the conversation was going to be like between Oprah and this woman, because I grew up, you know, much in the way that you were obsessed with science, I was really obsessed with language. And I used to beg my mom to pick me up fifteen minutes early from school so I could get home for the start of the Oprah Winfrey Show. And my mom was like, that is not my responsibility as your parents. My responsibility is to send you to school, Like what is wrong with you, and I was like, she is a journalist and I just love her. So anyway, a long story longer. Oprah's interviewing this woman and she's talking about how gender parity is her ultimate goal within religious institutions, which you wouldn't think about in the Catholic Church, and she said, I don't believe What did she say? She said, I believe that so many of the problems in the world come from the fact that people with fifty of the information are making a percent of the decisions. She was obviously talking about that on a traditional gender line, you know, discussing how men have half the information and women the other fifty one percent of the population have the other half, and that we would actually be making holistic decisions if both people's opinions and experiences were equally weighted. And I thought, when I heard that, that's absolutely true, you know, I felt it in my bones. And then I thought about what that exact same conversation about real equity means when you move outside of gender and you move into culture, and you move across race, and you move across experience, and you move into you know, gender identity, sexual identity, preference, all of these things and if everyone was allowed to really come to the table and be celebrated for the validity of their experience, all of our solutions would be better. And I don't think it would take us as long to get two really good answers and and so. On the one hand, I hate that you experienced that, and on the other I'm so glad that you didn't let it take you out of science completely, and that you've chosen to actually go out there and be such a public facing scientist and communicator and teach other people and actually diversify the field so that you can create more inclusion. I think it's really badass, and I'm glad that you stayed. Thank you, Thank you so much. I mean that that Oprah story is hilarious because I also used to run home off the school bus so I can catch it. I think it came on at like four PM or something, so it came on at three on the West Coast, and I was like, please pick me up early, and my mom was like, who are what is the matter with you? Um? You know, I was like, you know, eight years old and my two favorite TV shows were Oprah and Murphy Brown, and my mom was kind of like Okay, I don't know. All the other kids are like watching cartoons. I had no interest. I suppose it makes sense that I wound up with a podcast later in life. Yes, I mean I will go to say that, like, although I have had negative experiences, I'm very optimistic. And I also like to say my haters are my motivators, and not to say that people hate me. You know, I don't know why that would even be a possibility, but like I use haters as a term for people who have told me no, or people who have denied me the opportunity to pursue my goals, either by you know, oppressing me or by directly telling me no. Um. I always am like, okay, so you don't think I can do this, Well, guess what I'm gonna do it? You know you don't think right, like you're gonna have to actually be a scientist on TV now, Like I'm sorry. You know it's because you told me I couldn't do it. Yeah, I love that, and it's interesting I read in one of one of the pieces I read about you, you you said that my biggest piece of advice for my students is always be your own biggest advocate and push yourself to do things that challenge you. And I think exactly that when there's a roadblock to encourage people, you know, it's on you to figure out how to climb over it, jump over it, drive over it. You know you can, but you can do it absolutely. I mean I I've been a student, I've been a professor, I've been an academic advisor, I've been a researcher, and in all of those capacities, just based on my own experiences and then also mes sing what other people experience. I've never seen anybody suffer from like pushing past adversity to get to where they ultimately want to go. And so I always advise people to just if it challenges you, that just means you're experiencing something that is a growth opportunity. You might not have like the the mental or like emotional capacity to quite handle it, but you can gain that by powering through and getting to the other side, and then your possibilities are endless. Right well, And when when we zoom out a little bit, you know, it's great advice on a on an individual's experience, but when we zoom out to the actual field of science, when we think about stem fields, in general, closing gaps in health disparities really requires getting over hurdles like that. It really requires errs, as you've said, culturally responsive science communication. So in identifying the lack of that type of communication, is that what motivated you to become an educator, to launch a YouTube channel, to to to do your own version of a of a Bill n I program. What was it that that made that switch flip? Oh? So I know from a young age that this is what I wanted to do, and I think there is one point in my past where I can say I really made this choice, but I didn't know how I was going to get there. And that was in a conversation with one of my academic advisors. His name is Dr Potts, and I was, you know, at a crossroads. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go to medical school. I wasn't sure if I wanted to like be a veterinarian or like a teacher. I wasn't sure. I just knew I wanted to do science in some capacity. And so he set me down, He said, well, Raven, what do you want to do? Like, just forget titles, if you could describe your perfect day, what would that be, and so I said that I want to do science and I want to wear cute shoes. So that's that's what I That's all I had. And I was being real honest, I was like, Dr Pods, I want to wear cute shoes and I want to do science. That's all I got. I'm not really sure, you know. And so I didn't think much of what I said at that point, because I mean, I was I was being transparent, and I think he thought it was joking. But the reality is that's what I wanted, right And in other words, I guess, in an abstract way, me doing science and wearing cute shoes is another way of saying I want to do science and be myself and come as I am and not have to worry out what society thinks a scientists should do what look like. So I eventually got a master's degree, I worked in corporate I started teaching at a community college, and you know, as I was educating people, I saw how excited they were just just see me in the classroom. Like one of my favorite uh days were the first days of school, first day of lecture, where I think I was twenty four, twenty four at the time where I was working as a professor, and I, um, all of the students would be seated in in their seating area, and I would walk up to the podium and they'd be like, well, who are you Why are you standing there? And I said, I'm your professor. They would be like, holy crap, like fat jaws dropping, people are smiling. Um. And I taught in a really diverse college, a community college. I actually had people that were grandmothers, you know, above the age of sixty in groups with recent high school graduates like sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old working together. And Buffalo has a large refugee population and immigrant population. UM. So they were just a diversity and age and ethnicity and race and gender and um, all of these things in the classroom. But they were all no matter where they were from their background, they were all excited to see me, even though if it was the first day of school and they didn't even know anything about me. They were just happy to see me in the classroom. And so, you know, knowing with all of my experiences and knowing how important representation is to a lot of people, UM, I really set myself on a path to just being my unapologetic self as a public um teaching scientists and science communicator um and making sure that in everything I do, I am making people aware of of science and also like giving giving a are setting a new image of what a scientist looks like in American and redefining what that means for for everybody. When you think about redefining what a scientist means, I think about permission. Really. I think about how many of us, in our own individual experiences are clamoring for more doors to be opened and more seats to be pulled up to even larger tables. And I'm curious what that feels like now, because we talked about that a bit at the beginning. We're in a very strange time. The the administration that's in charge of our country right now is incredibly vicious to a lot of the kinds of communities we're talking about. It is unapologetically attacking science left and right. And that's how happening in the midst of both a global pandemic, which for some reason the administration wants to act like is a hoax against them, And I think, Wow, what a what an entitled thing to think that something that's affecting the whole planet was a setup against this one guy who's an idiot. I don't know part of my frankness, but we we look at that. We're looking at both an incredibly tense time culturally, scientifically, environmentally. You know, the entire West coast of the United States is on fire right now and at the time that you and I are recording this. What role do you think that politics plays in science and what role should science play in politics? Mm hmm, Well, I don't think that politics should play a role in science at all. I think they need to be separate completely. There is nothing, um there's I mean, science should not be political. I mean we don't need politics to do science. And that's that's just how I feel. It makes things way too complicated and and just difficult when you start adding in these dimensions that don't need to be there. As as a constituent who values science, thank you for that. And I also will say I wish as a voter science was actually allowed to influence politics. I do not think I agree with you. I do not think politics should ever be allowed to influence science. But I do think political leaders, regardless of party, should take science seriously. To me, science should always be bipartisan and respected. So I hope that we can all help in any realm and and sort of career vertical. I hope that we can all help advocate for all of you in the science community better as time moves forward. Absolutely, I think one of my first jobs, I think was an internship. I interned for an organization that I think is defunct now, but they were scientists and engineers for America. And as an intern, it was my job to interview political candidates and understand what their stances are on different science policies and environmental policies. And we had a database where we would keep track of all of these things. We would interview local candidates and also like national candidates, and that was That's been important to me for a very long time. And I agree with you. There is something called science debate that is a you know how we have the presidential debates. Um, there is something called science debate. It's obviously not as big as the official presidential debates, but um, they are trying to popularize getting politics sans on their platform to talk about scientific issues and hold them accountable for understanding and being able to communicate their stances on scientific policies. I would love that too, Yeah, and I think it it really it brings up something that you've said before, which really hits home for me, that science is relevant to everyday life. It shouldn't just be when a pandemic is occurring. You said that the reality is we really should be thinking about science every day. How are you talking about science in terms of the pandemic and perhaps allowing people through this aha moment they're having because of the pandemic. How are you bringing more and more people to the science table right now? You know, I like to talk about science in a way that people don't realize that I'm actually having a conversation with them about science. It has I've had instances in the past where I've spoken to people and they're like, Oh, science is not my thing. Just stop right there. I don't want to hear it. And then they just like hands over their ears. They're like, no, la, la la, I can't hear you. Um. You know, don't do the science thing. And I don't want that, right, So I tried to I basically trick people into listening to me. Um. But but having I like to have conversations and instead of preaching science. Um, I like to have conversations about how are you doing today? You know, did you hear about this? Oh? Okay, you know, or sliding in facts about oh are you feeling stressed today? That means you know, your cortisol levels are going to increase. And guess what happens when your cortisol levels increases affects all of these different parts of your body and you know, can cause these diseases. So let's make sure you're not stressed today. And um So, when you start to massage science and talk about science in a way that's relatable to people on a personal level and what they go through every day, it's much easier to insert information about the pandemic and like in the coronavirus and about vaccines, which can be a very touchy subject for some people. UM So, yeah, you have to build communities around science and like build conversations into the communities while disseminating scientific information. Why do you think so many people I think they can't understand science. I don't know, I don't know. It's an integral part of our bodies, right, our bodies running on science. Um everything is literally everything is science. Everything, I mean everything can be studied and and looked at, and you can form hYP hypothesis or a question about things around you anything, Um, and you can. You can use science to explain many things. So I don't know. Um, I think that it's just that people don't realize that literally, anything that's going on around you can be considered science. Um. I think that anybody can be a scientist. You just have to start asking questions and and looking into answering them. So I don't know why I try. I try to get people to realize that they can do science. Anybody can do science. I wonder sometimes if part of people's fear or aversion to science is that it's in flux. And I think that can be really hard for people to understand that that so much of science is based on obviously fact, but also observation, changing times, changing human behaviors, changing climate. Science is steady but also constantly moving, and I think the both and can be hard for people to hold Why why is science always changing? Can you can you break that down for us a little bit and and maybe make that feel a little less scary? Um? Yes, I can break this down. So let's say, Okay, let's put ourselves in a time period. We're no longer. We are now in the year seventeen hundred. Right, we're in the year sevent dred. Nobody alive can even imagine what that's like. But it's nothing like. Okay, we are on horses, we're doing horse and carriages. We are doing I don't know, carrier pigeons. Life is different. Ok Candles, there's no lighting. Yeah, we we're doing candles. We're eating corridge, all right, there's no uber eats, there's nothing. Um. But let's say that somebody like was really curious about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Let's say that we have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and seventeen hundred. I don't don't fact check me on this, Okay, I don't know, um, but let's say they did exist. Then, so let's say the scientists wants to know, okay, how many people like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in the year seventeen hundred. They're gonna go around with the p P B and j sandwich and ask people yes or no do you like peanut butter and jelly, and you're gonna get it yes or no answer. Maybe they get a percentage of people do like it don't like it? Great, we got the data. We know that we're good. Right, Sure, we're good for seventeen hundred when we asked that question. But maybe let's go to the year eighteen hundred and another scientist comes up and says, well, I know that we know that sixty for some of people like peanut butter and jelly and don't. But do they like it on wheat bread or do they like it on rye bread or do they like it on pumper nickel bread or white bread, right, or honeywheat or twelve grain. We don't know. So now we have to go back and do the research. And you can imagine how that gets complicated. And then maybe fifty years later someone's like, but what about crunchy peanut butter? What about the crunchy peanut butter? Right? And then fifty years later someone says, well, what about concorde jelly versus strawberry jelly? Right? So now we have all of this, so much information, right, and if you look at it, if you look at the timeline, it's like, dang, well, why they said that people like peanut butter and jelly? Why didn't it just stay that way. It's because we found out about all these new variables. Right, We don't know everything there is to know at one given point of time. We are constantly asking the same questions over and over again, um, in a more specific and intricate way. Also, we might have better technology. Right, So in seven, when we were sending carrier pigeons out, you know, or sending people on foot to go hold up a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to your face and ask you if you like it or not. You know, now we're near we can just send you a picture, right, or maybe New Year three thousand, I can send you a hologram, and you know you can. I can teleport you peanut butter and jelly sandwich. So who knows technology changes or questions change, um, But but we could still be asking all of these questions and still be investigating the same exact thing. Um. So apply that scenario to basically anything that can be studied, and that is why science is always changing. Hopefully that made sense, No, it really doesn't. And in fact, it kind of helps me qualify even what's going on with COVID nineteen because it reminds me to think about variables and how many variables you all in the science community are adding every month, every month, every week, all the time where there's new research when we think about variables, and lots of folks are asking what are the long term effects of COVID? Is a lack of those long term variables being recorded part of the reason that question is hard to answer. It is hard to answer because we can't predict the future. Again, this is a novel, it's a new virus. We've never seen this before, and therefore we don't know what the long term effects are. We can only make predictions based on the experiences that people have on the short term um but there's really no way for us to truly know five or ten years down the line how this is really going to impact someone's health, right because nobody at this point has had it for five years, it didn't exist exactly. Tricky for me, that that makes me want to double down on all of my precautions and efforts because as because as so many people are, as I'm looking at the news and I'm seeing the reports of some of the post COVID complications people are suffering from, my brain gets really caught up in fear for what's going to happen to those people next year, and in two years, and in five years and in ten years. You know how how rough is this going to be for them? And really, what this conversation is making me realize is the only real way we can ensure that people aren't suffering for incredibly long periods of time from something like this is to make sure people don't get it. Absolutely all we can really control right now is preventing the disease by using our precautions and also by trusting science and trusting that people are working hard behind the scenes on the front lines to make sure that we get a vaccine or some type of medical treat meant to help people who have the disease and also um to prevent people from getting the disease. As a biologist, can you speak a little bit too the safety of vaccines? We obviously see a lot of fear, which as a person who grew up with a grandfather who UH talked about the polio vaccine being, in his estimation, a holy innovation, I worry that there's a lot of misinformation out there that could actually be detrimental to us beating COVID if folks don't get vaccinated, do you, as a scientist, feel that you can comfortably speak to the safety of vaccines. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the fear behind vaccines comes from people not exactly sure what they are or how they work. And I think I can maybe break this down a little bit on a basic level for folks who are listening. Um, so let's say that somebody wanted to give you a food that you would never or tried before. So let's say that they wanted to give you licorice, right, and you've never had liquorice before, so you're like, I don't know if I'm gonna like liquorice. So you take a taste, you try and take a little nibble, You put it on your tongue, let the juices and the flavors flow, and you decide whether you like it or not. Getting a vaccine is kind of the exact same thing. So vaccines usually there's there's different types of vaccines, and they're made in different ways, but essentially what a vaccine is is a little piece, it's a little taste of, uh, the disease that it is trying to protect your body against. And so when we get vaccinations, we are giving our bodies just a little taste of a disease. It's an inactive taste, right, meaning that it's not meant to make you sick. It's just like a little portion of it is just to say, hey, this is what this is. Do you like it or not? Yes? No, And usually our bodies are like, no, we don't like this. And um, what our bodies do is we produce antibodies to fight against that that disease and so that those antibodies will work to protect us from the disease in the future. That's what a vaccine is. It's just us giving your body just a little preview and giving our bodies a chance to decide if it's going to protect us or not. Right, And and so this is science that has been done for hundreds of years. Vaccines are not new. Um. We have been giving vaccines in many different ways over hundreds of years. Um. People in older civilizations had vaccine technology. They were I mean, if you look into it's really interesting. They would take like they would take little scabs and rub it on people who weren't infected and to protect people from disease. And so it's nothing to be afraid of. This is something we've researched for a long time. It's not new. We know it works. Um, it doesn't always work as well as we think it should work, but we do know that it plays a major role in protecting UM, protecting us as a society. So it's it's the responsible thing to do. We're working very hard to make sure that they are safe and that they are as effective as possible, and don't have a lot of options. You know, we're doing all that we can. So I definitely recommend UM getting a vaccine, and I will be getting the vaccine, and I hope that you do too. I absolutely well as well. I think it's also important to remember, as you mentioned, we don't know how efficient they'll be. So sometimes vaccines have let's say a sixty or a seventy percent success rate at making people immune to an illness, which is part of the reason that it's so important that everyone get them, so that enough people can be immune to the illness that we can stop the spread. Is that right, right? Exactly? So, when we talk about vaccines, one of the things that we've also received some questions about is viral mutation. Will the COVID nineteen virus mutate. Is it mutating? If it does, will a vaccines still be efficient or effective? Can you speak to that. Yeah. So, one of the things about the coronavirus is that it's actually mutating slower than some of the other viruses that we know about, and that is because it has this handy dandy thing called a proof reading enzyme, which does exactly that. It's able to read itself and check for errors and mutations are errors. So if you know, COVID has built in spell check system, right, So it's it's mutating slower than other viruses than we know about, But that doesn't mean it's not mutating. It has, it has mutated. Um, there are studies showing that there are mutated versions of the coronavirus that have sprung up in parts of Europe and and perhaps in other parts of the world. Mutations also will only become an issue when it mutates in a way that makes it easier for the virus to infect people. Okay, So I'm gonna ask a couple of questions about that to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly. So it sounds to me like what you're saying is in the grand scheme of viruses and the way that they mutate. The coronavirus is not mutating in a way that should make us feel nervous. It's quite slow because, as you said, the virus is so smart, it essentially spell checks itself for errors, which scientifically is a good thing because that means we're more likely to, once we have a vaccine, have it be stable and be able to treat the coronavirus because the virus is not changing very rapidly, which many other viruses have, right exactly. Okay, So I think for someone like me, who is certainly interested in science but undoubtedly a layman and not an expert, it's nice to know when when you hear things like viral mutation, I don't know. I think about the AIDS crisis or a movie like Contagion, and I think, oh my god, it's going to be this runaway train and we're never going to get control of it. But that's not what's happening here. That's not what's happening. No, we can we can relax. Um Our scientists, our researchers are working at a pace that is very fast. This is a very urgent situation and the virus is not mutinating in a way that should alarm anybody. We are consistently running an analysis on the sequence of the virus so that we can make sure that it's not mutating in a way that presents a danger to society. And yeah, it's I don't think that people should worry about that at this point in time. We can keep our worry focused on the virus itself and make sure we're implementing precautions. But we don't need to be worried that it's suddenly becoming even worse Thanatority is right, And it's also this also speaks to how important physical distancing is. As long as we can slow the spread of this virus and keep the numbers down, there's lesser of a chance of it becoming a big issue, um if it does mutate, because there's not going to be enough of the virus around. So um yeah, I mean we we just have to keep our precautions in action of physical distancing, handwashing, wearing our masks so we can really kill this. It's a lot of information to process, and it's interesting because in in one sense, you're saying we can feel okay about the virus not mutating not getting worse. But on the other hand, we've been at this, as you mentioned, with the physical distancing and the precautions and the mask wearing and the handwashing and the avoiding large crowds for so many months now that I do think some folks are getting a little bit fatigued in terms of that kind of vigilant fear. But what you're not saying is that the virus is becoming less dangerous, right right, So so um hm, if we think about mutations, right, mutations are pretty much the source of evolution on the grand scale. So if you think about how far humans have come, and you know how far we've developed from early humans to now, we look a loout different than we used to. Um, we are smarter, we have, we just we had a lot going on. Okay, Homo savings, we're doing great, But we weren't always that way. It was a lot of mutations over thousands of years that helped us get to where we are now. Now, if you condense that time frame to a virus, a viral life cycle, um, they don't. They don't live for as long as humans do. They they have generations that are you know, very short. So when you think about evolution on a small scale and how mutations and viruses can play out in a shorter amount of time if there are more opportunities for virus to continue living. Um. So, let's say if we don't physically distance and we continue passing the virus around, and that virus has more opportunities to replicate and continue living and have more cycles, more opportunities for mutations, that's where the danger is because we're giving it more opportunities to change, to be different, to evolve. Um. So, that's why social distancing is so important. We don't want to give the virus more opportunities to become different, right, We want to make sure that we keep the numbers down, and we also want to get a vaccine out so that we can lower these chances for transmission. Can you use your really brilliant way of explaining why masks work. When we talk about our COVID protocols being responsible, how we need to stick to them, lots of people I want to know how long we need to keep wearing masks, and I think reminding us why they work so well is a helpful way to encourage all of us to keep it up well. All masks are not created equal, but what we do know is that having some sort of facial covering is definitely better than nothing, and that there are many studies done that have shown the efficiency of certain masks um and preventing the spread of viral particles. We know that the virus is spread by honestly, any really just any type of air coming out of your mouth. Okay, it could be shouting, sneezing, singing, um talking, sneezing, coughing. All of those actions can spread the virus. So it's best that you not only stay far away from other people, but you also cover your mouth with a mask, and your dog your mouth and your nose. Yes, So what can we do to stay healthy today? What do you recommend? Well? I think that taking care of your mental health is very important. We talk a lot about physical health, but the reality for many people is is different. We're all going through a lot of different things, but most of us have not had much social contact with other people. Um. I implore that people do find a way to stay connected with other humans because human contact, social socialization is a natural human tendency. We are a social species, So make sure you're still talking to people, still expressing yourself and engaging with others, even if it's just walking on your street and smiling at a neighbor. Little things like that can really make a great impact on your day. UM again, continue practicing your COVID nineteen precautions. Find someone in science that you trust to learn information from and kind of stick with them. Make them be your science buddy. Follow them on social media if you can, UM find a trusted news source. An official news source like government agencies can also be a great source of information and should should honestly be your first source of information. And you know, don't don't give up, hope. We are all in this together and we just need to stay strong. We can get through this. Raven. It's so fun to hang with you. Even though it's over zoom, I wish it was in person. You are the most effusive and and just fun human to be around. And it's no surprise to me why all of your students adore you so much and why your science content is going so viral online. UM listeners at home will be linking to everything in this week's episode, will post videos and let you know where you can find all of Raven's content. My last question for you. I don't want to let you go, but you have things to do, like saving the planet from COVID, so I'm going to let you go. But the last question I love to ask everybody who comes on the show is, as the podcast is titled work in Progress, and we all think about where we are in this moment, what feels like a work in progress in your life right now? Um? So is this a work in progress, like a little literal work in progress or any anything. It could be personal or professional, or something you're thinking about for the world, really whatever comes to mind. Gosh, there's oh my gosh, this is not all day. I'm always on the go. I'm I'm a problem solver, so whenever I see a problem, I try to solve it. And there's there are a couple of things that I'm working on. One of them is, uh, I'm working on producing a few shows in the science and one of them is called Nerdy Jobs, and it is essentially me going around in the world shadowing different scientists and other STEM professionals and working with them to see what kind of cool things are doing, and also to showcase that STEM is fun and so cool cool, and that like we can we can cry, laugh, uh, scream, hollar, but we're learning through it all and we're having fun. So that's one thing that I'm excited about. And then, um, the other thing that I I'm working on is finding out a way to create more opportunities for scientists who are pursuing like higher degrees, their terminal degrees, scientists who are producing PhDs, to have opportunities to also pursue public outreach and education. There is a huge issue in science culture where when you get to the PhD level, you're not I mean, it depends on where you are, but if you're at a research institution, you are often encouraged to not be excited about teaching, and you're often encouraged to solely focus on your research. And it's often discouraged to have a desire to want to teach, to want to engage with the public, and to to take your focus away from strictly research and add some humanity and compassion and uh community building into your life. And that is a huge problem. I recently had a discussion online about this on my own platform, and many other scientists agree that this is what's missing in our culture and it's contributing to a major problem in greater society. As we've talked about earlier today, a lot of the problems that we're experiencing right now, this pandemic is because of the public disconnect with science, and a part of that issue, um, is due to the fact that science itself is not letting scientists connect with the public and like have have that connection. So, UM, you know, that's something that I really want to work on. I'm I don't know where I'm going to start, but that's absolutely on my agenda to create more opportunities for scientists who who love the public like I do. That's so cool, And I can say, as a member of the public who love science that I would be so excited to have more access to conversations like this and and to watch you guys speak in real time about the work that you're doing and how it's done. I think you're right. I think it would really welcome so many people into the scientific arena and and make them feel like they didn't have to be nervous or afraid to be there. So, UM, tell me where to sign up. Well, it's study that you asked that, because I actually do have a talk show. It's called Stembassy and it is my science advocacy organization. I run it with four other women's scientists and we have a weekly live show actually where we all gather and we invite scientists to come on and talk about their research. We play games, we have fun, we make jokes. Um. But overall it's it's been a really wonderful opportunity for the public to come and engage with scientists in real time. UM. And so yeah that that exists. I made it, and you're the joint. I'd love to have you one. I'll be there, let's plan it. Yes, Yes, awesome. Thank you so much for today. This has been so fun. Likewise, I had so much fun. Thank you for having me. This show is executive produced by me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our associate producer is Cate Linley. Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy