Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Okay, y'all, Pisa Ling is so badass. If you haven't watched her CNN series This Is Life, you have to check it out. It is the most inspiring, moving and informative thing on TV right now. She travels around the country exploring all sorts of topics, from porn to gender fluidity, to prison, two twins, and so much more. I loved talking to her about her journalism career, how she got started, and how she sees the impact of the ever changing nature of how we view the truth. She got her start as a reporter in high school. She shared an office with Anderson Cooper at Channel one, and then went on to work for Oprah. I asked all about them both, and of course how she's led this incredible career. We covered so much, and I know you'll find her as inspiring and exciting as I do. Well, thank you for coming. I'm just so excited that you're here. I don't know if you remember it, but I remember it because I've been such a fan of yours, for I don't even remember a time when I wasn't um, which is interesting because neither of us is that old. But but you're really not and and it's and it's funny to me because I guess so many of my memories of the powerful journalists who affected me revolve around stories that I watched from you, stories that I watched from Oprah, stories that I watched from Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters. You you are these You are the iconography of of women in journalism to me. And a couple of years ago, we were at a lunch which I believe Cindy Levy, the editor of Glamour at the time, was throwing at this great place here in l A, the Sunset Tower Hotel. It's this, you know, for our listeners. It's the sort of you know, chic bastion of like Art deco Hollywood culture. It's super cool and there's this beautiful view of l A and all these amazing women were there and I turned around and I saw you, and right in your face, I went, I love you just came out of me. I was so excited to meet you, and you were just and still obviously are the just the kindest, most genuine person and you were so sweet and response, so thank you for that, well, thank you. I I didn't expect to be so flattered coming in here, but I so appreciate that. And to even mention my name, you know, alongside the likes of Diane Sawyer and Oprah and Barbara Walters is so humbling, and because they also have been such idols of mine for so long. And I've been doing the work that I do for a long time and I've been really really lucky to to to be able to tell stories with some substance, and I feel now in this environment more defiant about the need to continue telling these kinds of stories, because we're just amidst such a culture of ugliness and vitriol and hatred. And it's really scary to me me too when you talk about it feeling defiant. Can you expand on that a little more? I just I've never felt more strongly about the work that I do, and now maybe also as a mother of two girls. But also you know, we we are now living in these bubbles, these siloed bubbles, where we're not willing to hear each other anymore. I mean, I don't know about you, but I have fallen victim to just following people who espouse the same views that I do on social media. And so when you exist in that bubble, I think it's really really hard to not only hear what what other people are saying, but understand where people are coming from. We just have become so predisposed now to just shutting it down or discounting it entirely if it's not in line with how we feel. And I just think that there's real danger to that. And look, I'm as guilty as anyone for doing it. You know, I'm a human being and I like to surround myself with people who have like values. But I think that we are getting to a point right now where you know, we we've reached a crisis point now, and that we have to start listening to each other and hearing each other or I'm afraid of the potential catastrophic impact if we don't. I am too. It can feel really overwhelming. And I think to your point, I I can see what silos I exist in, and because of some of that, I've tried to be very intentional about expanding the circles through which I view the world, following some very conservative analysts and following activists who work in certain cause related spaces that are not the spaces that I have dedicated my life too, but are still so valid, simply to start looking at the way that these systems overlap, because we do this idea that there are two America as I understand, but I also think is such a dangerous falsehood because we're all in this together. And even this idea that people say something that that phrase it couldn't happen here when talking about what's going on in other parts of the world, but I think we then miss it because if it's happening on the globe, it's happening to all of us. And perhaps the the tendency to rest or or back into the more tribalistic parts of our brains is because the world does feel big and overwhelming, and perhaps some of the tendency is in our d n a. You know, I just got to spend some time with a really incredible doctor, one of those people who's like, I've got four PhDs and six doctorates, and I was like, Okay, I've done nothing with my life. And she's this incredible clinical researcher who was explaining some big mental health ideas, talking about trauma, talking about certain personality disorders, so we really got nerdy, and she confirmed to me that not only is there this idea of generational inheritance, but the doctors now can actually see the ways in which certain patterns are inherited. So if your grandparents experienced trauma, you have inherited trauma from them. That experience, which actually changed the way their DNA codes, was given to you in your DNA. And I'm fascinated by this because I think about how much it really means we're all connected, how much it really means that all of these experiences shape all of us. That as women, what our mothers went through is in us and creates an instinct, and oppressed communities have generational trauma that can be tracked, and we all are living in this big, complicated soup together. And if we don't start being able to have these conversations in ways where we can lay it out on the table, we can look at the things we may not agree with people on, but also talk about what we do, talk about our commonality, and then figure out how to compromise to move forward. I don't know what happens. I feel like then we just become these tiny pockets of you know, these virtual civil wars that and I think there's never been a better time to talk about exactly this, because if in fact, there is a generational link to those who who who feeld a inhabit, you know, an oppressed community, they're part of an oppressed community. I think I think how we respond to that is really is really important, you know. I think that right now we and I think social media had a lot to do with us. I mean, you know, I'd be curious to know how the woman you were talking to feels about social media, because in so many ways, social media, our device, our devices have just turned everything, you know, this this sort of course of humanity on its head, because it is igniting things in all of us that aren't really normal, you know. And so I think there are all these movements that are happening right now that are exciting and and that are purposeful me too. For example, there is increased awareness and momentum behind the fight against racism right but at the same time, there's a lot of blame that's being placed on people, and in some ways, I think it's unfair because it's not productive. I'm currently working on an episode for a future season about what I believe is a crisis of it is a boy crisis, because I think that there is a generation of young men right now who are growing up feeling or being made to feel like they are part of this oppressive class. They're afraid to to speak out about anything. They're afraid to defend themselves if they feel they deserve to defend themselves. And I think that that is resulting in a lot of young men seeking out these you know, white supremacist groups, gangs, these other kinds of tribes. You know. It's it's interesting you mentioned this sort of tribal culture that you know, human beings have kind of descended from, right I think now we are we are because of social media and and and because of everything that's happening in the world. We're wanting to sort of seek those tribes out. But if if, if you're if your energy, if your anger is channeled in the wrong direction, it can so easily result in seeking out these kinds of really dangerous kinds of tribes, you know. So I think that our kind of response to everything that's happening right now is really really is really crucial. It's easy to to blame, right, but what what is the productive answer to the things that are happening now? And the only way we can achieve that or get to that place, I think, is through meaningful dialogue. And we're just not having that because we're so you know, we we we've dug ourselves into these these holes. And I think there's a real kind of reckoning, you know. They there's theories about when as humans we make these evolutionary jumps, and right before a jump or an adaptation, it can be very chaotic, and I think to your point, it's so important that we are having conversations about all of these systems which have really stood to harm a lot of people in the world. But there are so many of them, and and it can at times feel like people really only care about the system that oppresses them. And then we just have all these people who are angry for different reasons, all yelling about why they're angry. And I'm really glad we're all yelling, and I'm hoping we can all again listen to each other and create some sort of cohesive plan to move a larger society forward. And I had a conversation with a friend of mine who is an incredible mentor in my life and amazing figure in all of the women's movements, not just the most recent one, And something dawned on me while we were speaking, because she was giving me some perspective on over the last fifty years of activism, where where she sees the fear as women fight for their own power, where she sees the fear come from in men? And I had this wild realization where I went, Oh, is it that the men are afraid we would do to them what they've done to us? Oh? Is that why the demand for equality can feel to those who have been empowered like oppression? Is that what creates this confusing schism for these younger men who go, I don't think I'm all bad? Are you saying that if the future is female? I get left behind? And and we as women have to do better at talking about When there's a slogan out there and there's a T shirt that says the future is female, the word male is literally included in the word female. Women are fighting so hard for equal representation, and I think we can forget when men are afraid that to us, we we have at least for me. I know I do. I have the core belief of I would never do to you what a patriarchal system has done to my sister. And we have total tendency to be afraid. And I think that's what's driving are politics right now, right, And it's it's you. You react when you're scared, right, And that's being really taken advantage of. We have political leaders who understand that they can galvanize fear to create this boiling point where people will act irrationally and often in the in the best interests of the politicians and not the people. And it's unfortunate when a society is being taken advantage of by its leaders in that way. And it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a fight, right, There doesn't have to be a winner. You know, someone said once I and I and I. I can't exactly cite the quote, but when when one gender wins, we all lose, right, because if we are going to talk about equality, it can't be at the expense of the other gender. M We had a great guests on the podcast, J Shetty, who is an incredible speaker and he's got just the coolest perspective. And he talks about something in his marriage which I think actually is the micro version of the macro way we need to look at society. He talks about how he and his wife always when they're looking at a problem, they sit together and say, it's you and me against the problem. It's we against this. It's not you versus me. The problem is not a thing that exists between us. It's it's its own entity over here. And we have to be on the same team to solve it. And and I would love for us to be able to look at the problems of society and say, but we're on the same team. Could we ever get to that place? I mean, it's such a utopic, that's but but but I listen, I would love to live in that world too, because it is true. I mean, we are all part of the same race. And when we continue to sort of perpetuate, you know, this hostility along along race lines or along gender lines, it's just like it's it serves no purpose, you know, and it just I don't know, I mean, it's it's really it's really destructive. Well, and I think there's something that fascinates me is looking at the reality that two things can be true at the same time, that people need spaces where their identity can be recognized, and that we need to recognize that we all are part of one larger identity. And I always like to ask people when we get started about who they were as kids. And you and I have just delved right into everything, and I love it, but I'm like, God, her brain is so good. Um, but it But it does make me curious because I want to know about who you were as a child. I know you as this brilliant and and observational and nuanced, soulful human and I wonder if you were all of those things when you're seven or eight and when we talk about were when we talk about identity, though, I wonder what your experience also is as a Chinese American and as a woman, because your culture is important and there's also the reality of your culture and then the desire to assimilate. And in a way I would imagine there are lessons from your childhood that applied to this conundrum of how do we recognize that we're all the same, and how do we how do we hold onto who we are in the ways that we are different, and to our culture and to our heritage, because that's important too, absolutely and I and I, when I really think back on it, I do think that the conflict that I felt or experienced as a as a young seven year old has everything to do with how I see the world or how I envisioned the world that I want to live in. I grew up in northern California, outside of Sacramento, in a very non diverse community, and we didn't have a lot of money. My parents divorced when I was seven. Um, and I always felt conflicted about my identity because I didn't feel totally American because my house always smelled like Chinese food. And I obviously look different than all of my friends. And I was reminded of the fact that I looked different from them all the time. And what is how does that present when you're a little kid. Where did those reminders come from? Oh? I mean, I was. I was teased a lot. It wasn't malicious, but because I look different and kids are kids, you know, I was called you know, reesa ring was my nickname, and and and kids would uh constantly kind of come up to me and and you know, make these sounds like oh, Esa ring and you know, stuff like that. Again, it wasn't malicious, they were just being kids. But when you when you grow up kind of experiencing those things and really loathing how that felt, I think it it kind of drives you in a certain way. But I didn't feel entirely American because I didn't look like my friends. And I didn't feel Chinese because ultimately I didn't know the first thing about being Chinese because I was American. I was born in California, and whenever I was with people who were from any part of Asia, I just could not relate at all. And so I I grew up. I remember that that that word conflict is sort of the definitive war a word of to describe my childhood because I just didn't I didn't know where I belonged, and I longed for that tribe too, and I just didn't have that. Was that something you could talk to your parents about? Could you ask them about their experiences before they immigrated here? You know, as a kid, I just didn't really have the language. The language. Yeah, And and again, my parents were divorced when I was seven, and my mom moved to Los Angeles, and even though she was still part of our lives. And when I say we, I'm including my sister in this conversation, who was four when my parents divorced. She she definitely wasn't a regular part. She wasn't part of the day to day and my dad worked all the time. So my grandmother was with us, and she was a very educated woman but also a very strong evangelical and so the Bible was a big part of our our try fildhood. Singing hymns was a big part of our childhood. In fact, on Halloween Night, my grandmother would make us turn out all the lights and sing hymns to drown out all of the all the trick or treaters. Yeah, it was that. It was a hardcore, so you never got to get candy. I mean we snuck out a couple of times, did it. When she When she got older, and when we got older, she started to she she she became pretty senile at a certain point. But yeah, that's that's that's the world that that I grew up in, so very you know, on the one hand, very closed minded on so many levels. But also with this with this real conflict not knowing where I where I, where I belonged, and so I started working on television when I was young. I auditioned for a teen magazine show when I was sixteen, and I was chosen how do I find out about? Yes? How does the six It was kind of like that before a speech teacher told the class about auditions at a local mall for a teen magazine show that that might eventually become syndicated, And so I showed up audition and I was chosen as one of the four hosts out of about five kids that showed up. An auditioned, and that gave me an opportunity to in turn in the newsroom because it was produced by a local news affiliate. But it wasn't until I turned eighteen that I auditioned for another show called Channel one News, which is seen in schools across the country purportedly by about eight and a half million students every day. Anderson Cooper, who was on Who's on CNN, was one of my colleagues. The idea was to bring on these young looking correspondence. We were kind of like nine o two and oh before to report news for a high school audience, So we they wanted these certain young looking reporters kids that felt like just the age group above the viewers exactly exactly and having never traveled because we didn't have the resources to do so. It was the most incredible, eye opening, illuminating experience because it exposed me to the world in such a profound way. You know, I wasn't visiting tourist attractions. I was reporting on the Russian referendum elections, or the civil war in Afghanistan, or stories about globalization in China, in India. You know. I did this in my late teens in early twenties, so just traveling to these places as part of Channel One while I was in college at USC and so I eventually dropped out because I felt like I was acquiring a graduate school education in my travels. But it was that experience at Channel one that propelled me to want to communicate what I was seeing to a bigger audience. So I want to get more into Channel one. But I have a question about this sort of interim time. You're between this childhood where you're growing up, as you said, in a in a closed minded household, and then you go out to become a news reporter, which requires curiosity and expansive thought. And I wonder about how you wound up there were Were you very curious about these systems you were living in, about community and about family. Were you asking a lot of questions, let's say, from you know, eight to fifteen, How did that spark for you? So I have always had an insatiable curiosity, but it really I don't believe I started really asking those questions until later. You know what happened for me in my lateeens in early twenties when I started getting just exposed to the rest to the world. I mean I was I was twenty one years old when I went to the front lines of the civil war in Afghanistan and had a ten year old boy point a an RPG at me. And so you know, those are those are experiences that you just you can't erase, right, And so I I realized, after experiencing so many of these things that this is where I just felt like I was. I was kind of thriving in those kinds of environments. I felt more alive. And that's something that I continue to really relish about what I'm able to do, whether it's going to Afghanistan or going and and and spending time with a community that is just completely different from my own in Wichita, right, I feel alive, my senses are heightened. And in our country today, in the world, really we are trying not to feel. We're afraid of feeling. You know, if we're feeling scared, if we're feeling anxiety, if we're feeling uneasy, there's a pill for that, you know, let's just let's just medicate you so you don't have to feel. And and for me, my whole life, it's just been the opposite. It's when I'm when I'm in environments that are unfamiliar to me, like I just I love how that feels. And and it's not always that I feel good or that I feel excited. Sometimes I'm horrified by the conditions around me. Sometimes I I can't stand the food that that that's being given to me. Sometimes my heart just feels like, you know, it's it's it's being torn out of my body. But it's so important to feel those things, and I think we've kind of gotten away from that or or somehow we are afraid of of of feeling. And I think it's really unfortunate because it's really that that's really driven me. Yeah, I got I identify with that so much in all the traveling I've chosen to do in the communities, I've chosen to visit in the places that I always want to go. When I'm advocating for something, I want to go and see it myself. I want to go and talk to the people there myself because it feels necessary to bear witness two use my platform in the most respectable and authentic and accurate way to talk to a larger audience that I have the privilege of talking to about these things happening in the world. And I as you talk about how if it makes you feel alive, whether good or bad, in the feeling you're experiencing, I really I get that. And when I when we first started talking, when I said that social media and these devices is have turned it all upside down. There's nothing that compares to what you can access on your device, nothing, no landscape, no no experience, because we are so just like, we're so overstimulated. We are so we can access anything. Our brains just they weren't built to process all of this. And and and so I think increasingly people are are feeling less and less because they are are so embroiled in their social world and in the world of social media, and people aren't going out and having those experiences because they don't feel like they need to. But yet they feel like they have a platform though, to be able to kind of pontificate about you know, what have you. And it's it's it's it's a it's kind of just an unprecedented period that we're living in in that regard. It's wild. I'm just so curious about where we where we go and and I and then they're talking about, you know, this virtual reality so that people don't even have to travel, they can just sit on their couches and and and and get exposed to different parts of the world or whatever they want to do sexually, you know. And it's but then we're missing it. We're missing the actual experience. We're missing the people that you run into, the street food you wind up eating, the conversation, you wind up having the wrong turn you take that leads you somewhere you weren't expecting to go. It's it's the connectivity. And and really, I think the magic that goes away the more we view the world through a screen. Absolutely, I mean, just the spontaneity of life. And again, those feelings that you can only get when you don't know it is going to happen, right, And my fear as we kind of progress along this this path is just that already people are feelings. Young people are feeling less empathy or the inability to to be empathetic than ever before because they they are they're numbing themselves with video games or you know, or you know whatever whatever drugs that they choose to pursue. And you know, I want to get on it. I want to sort of ignite this quest for people to really start feeling because I just can't can't. I can't convey more strongly how important it is to be able to do. Remember when we were kids and we would call, we would get so excited about calling you know, a boy or you know that that like all of that doesn't even happen anymore, And when you finally get on the phone, you'd have to actually speak and communicate like that just doesn't it doesn't happen. And it's it's again, it's like picking away at at feeling and being able to experience the full range of your emotions. Oh oh yeah, I know we're going. We're going in a lot of directions here, and I love it, and I think I think you have such a unique perspective also on how these new experiences are shaping and shifting culture because you've been investigating it for as long as you have. And when you talk about being twenty one and being out on assignment for Channel one and going to places like Afghanistan, you did that. And we're able to dive into those communities and come home and metabolize what you saw and talk about the feeling and talk about the political reality, and and and you could really pontificate on geopolitical issues and human issues in a way that in my memory felt more grounded and more informative. You know, prior to the Bush Cheney era, you couldn't have partisan news. You just couldn't have that. The news was presented as fact first, and then people could come on to debate, to talk about different sides of policy. But there was never the ability for a news organization to judge the facts before presenting them. It's really miss that. It's really it's really unfair to call news, or at least broadcast news news because it's just it's now just straight opinion and well, and it feels like a cage match. When I watched the news, I feel like I'm watching ESPN. I don't feel like I'm watching news. It's been designed to feel like sport. And again, when was the last time you were out with people right embedded in communities? But yet, somehow, for some reason, you've been given this really precious position to kind of spew your opinion for for the masses to absorb and to envelop a fact. And yeah, I just for me, I think the reason why I feel so emphatic about about this kind of work is, you know, again, just I don't I spend an equal amount of time in my home, but also just in the world with people who in my wildest dreams I never imagined I'd be hanging out with or spending time with her, having dinner with. But I develop a relationship with those people as a result that is so unique and important, and I feel a responsibility to tell their stories accurately. And I just I think we all need to do that more. Just traveling to we don't even have to leave our own country to feel like we're in another foreign territory. You know, if we just traveled to the middle of the country and vice versa, and you, and and so many of the great thinkers have that experience. You know, you talk about your travel, your Channel One coworker Anderson Cooper travels. I think about Gloria Steinham writing on the road. I think about even John Steinbeck, you know, one of my favorite authors, who had this awakening in his later life, realizing he'd become this famous writer on America, and it had been so long since he had been in America. And he got a camper for his truck and threw his dog in the back and kissed his wife goodbye and said I gotta go explore, And in his sixties road tripped around America again to go to tiny towns and campsites and just be with people. And it's so crucial that if we're going to write about experience, if we're going to advocate for people, if we're going to make plans for people, that we know those people. When when you guys were out traveling in that Channel One era, I am so curious, just as a fan of the both of you, I'm thinking about you and Anderson out there on the road. What is that experience like? And you know you're twenty one years old, are you guys going to bars? Are you what are you doing? What is your personal life when you're as a journalist at one traveling the globe? What is that? How do you date? What's your social if I'm so curious? While dating, dating wasn't. Yeah, I mean, I'm married now. But it's always been a challenge because I come back from these crazy, unbelievable experiences and want to talk to people about it. But I think inevitably it kind of made people feel not insecure. But I just don't really have anything to say. I can't really contribute to the conversation, and so you just kind of just compartmentalize. And that was particularly challenging in relationships, especially because I would go out with guys who I think fancy themselves as like masculine guys, and I come back and I, you know, just jumped out of helicopters with you know, Colombian narco narco police and cocaine invested laboratories and the jungles, and they're kind of like, WHOA, I I don't really know what to say, turn the paradigm over, don't know how to react. So so I I've always just kind of kept my circles very tight. My sister is also a journalist, so she and I probably talk on the phone five times a day at least. And I've just always I've always been the kind of person because I interact with so many people to just keep my kind of inner circle pretty pretty pretty tight. Yea. What is it like when you talk about the relationships that you build with these people, these communities that you visit. Do you have to have a sort of boundary, almost like a doctor does, where you can't allow a continued expectation of a relationship after a story or can you keep up? Question? It's a great question, and it's a tough one to answer because I give my cell phone number to just about anyone, anyone that I spend time with and and we profile because what they've shared with me is often so deeply personal. It's it's it's more personal than they've ever shared with even their closest friends or family members, and I haven't. I feel like I have an obligation to maintain contact with these people because they've done that, They've shared that with me and I and I take that responsibility very seriously, and in many ways I feel closer to them for them having shared this with me than I even feel with some of my own friends or people I call friends, because we just go to that place. And my my my husband. You thought it was pretty funny that our wedding we we we we have we both have huge families, and so when we got married, we just decided, how just let's invite everyone. Let's just have a big party and just invite everyone. So I had, you know, a family that we we you know, we we we profiled who who lost their house in Hurricane Katrina. We had a family who adopted Chinese, you know, girls who I had stayed in contact with. We had a bunch of police officers. We had some drug counselors. Because I I the relationship that that the relationships that I build with these people of their real relationships, because of what people have shared with me. And and I am so fortunate to be able to have these kinds of relationships. And I don't I don't stay in touch with everyone that I've ever profiled, but they all have my number and can text or call me. And you know, I have a text thread going right now. This man that I profiled when I was working for the Oprah Show, his entire family was addicted to heroin. His his wife eventually succumbed to addiction. Her addiction. He ended up in car righted. But he texts me all the time to tell me that he just gotta his his union license. He sends me pictures of the house that he's building. He told me he just bought his dad's truck from him, the first vehicle he's ever bought. And I cherish those those text messages from those people, And I get them randomly, but I but I cherished them. Yeah, when someone really trusts you with their truth, it's such an intimate experience and how beautiful it must be to really get to cultivate that repeatedly with people, especially because you choose to bear witness in a lot of communities that people aren't paying attention to. So there's such there's such a gift in hearing people. Well, that's the whole, that's that's that's that's the gist of my work. And again I fall into the trap of of of of you know, listening to people who again espouse the same values that I do. But when it comes to my work, I really really try hard to to put my judgment aside and just hear people, and it really has been enlightening for me to do that. I've even been embedded with a militia, you know, a a bunch of guys who are who are defiant about their Second Amendment rights, and they let me in bed with them because they knew that even though I vehemently oppose you know, I have I have, I have visceral feelings about about gun control and whether people should possess assault weapons. They knew I would give them a fair shot and allow them to to talk, right. They knew that I would not be exploitative. I might, I might express my feelings, but I would give them a chance to talk. And that's what we really try to do. I don't know that a lot of shows really do that. I look at myself as just the vehicle through which people can experience things. And I might hold your hand to introduce you to people that you might otherwise never encounter. But I'm not going to tell you what to think, and I'm not going to make the story about me. I'm going to give you a chance to get to know people that you might not otherwise have the time or have the desire to get to know, and who knows. In the end, you might walk away feeling a little bit differently, or you might find that you can relate to these people in ways that you might not have otherwise ever thought you could. It's so cool, it's it's such a service, really, and I think a reminder And I am curious because obviously you're you're in this space where you are comfortable getting so personal with people. But I remember, these are my moments where I just moved on a bashion fan where I'm like, well, I remember when this happened to you, because I read the article. I remember, you know when you started on the view, coming in from this space as a journalist and then coming into still be a journalist, but to share of yourself in a different way. Yeah, there was this expectation that you were just going to open up about every aspect of your life, and you got asked a question immediately that made you very uncomfortable. I don't know if you want to talk about that or not, but how do you do that and what's the shift? Because you know you were at USC, you're a journalist. I also went to USC. I don't know if we've ever talked about this. I get very excited about it. I'm like Annaburg for life. I loved it so so much. But what what is that kind of shift feel like? And how did you, as a as a young woman at that stage in your career, how did you adjust for that? I think it would be so good for so many women listening to here. It was pretty surreal one because I was a journalist before I started the View, and and and it was really drilled into me to not talk about my personal life or or or just kind of you know, just be cautious about about expressing too much. And then here I am on the View, sitting next to Barbara Walters and Marathevia and Star Jones and meretheth Vieira is asking if I'm a virgin or not on my first day work, to which I replied, my dad's watching right now, so I'll just say yes. I think that I try hard to keep most of my life private, things that are really really personal. But I do think that by sharing bits and pieces, I do think that people feel like they can trust me even more. I mean, I think Meredith Vera, the same thing happened for her. She kind of deviated from that characterization of what a reporter should reveal. And I think it it served her well because people came to really like her and and feel for her when she was going through you know, issues with her her husband who had MS, or you know, raising three kids and being a working mom. And it wasn't intentional For me, I think in the in a way, going to View was helpful because again, not only did I come from a roles In background, but I'm Asian. So Asian culture is is probably the least communicative, the most shut down community there is ethnic community. Uh, And so it was a real shift for me to be expressive and to do so on a national television in front of a national television audience. It must have been a bit of a culture shock for sure. Oh for sure. It was so uneasy. But so how did you keep coming in every day? You know? I think that I I was pretty cautious about what I was willing to talk about and what I didn't want to talk about. But I got myself into trouble a few times because it is a it is a show that really encourages candor, and it was one of the few that did so. It was you know, the View is a it was a pioneer at the time, because you know, you had journalists sitting at this table and they were talking about everything happening in their lives. But it was I think as much as I wasn't crazy about the job, I think I developed skills there that have have served me well because I do think that people relate to you more if you let them in a little bit. But but it's but it's still important to have boundaries, of course. Well yeah, God, I think about that so much because I want to have really vulnerable conversations about humanity with people. I want to investigate those things. I want to share about things that I'm learning. Also to kind of undo that horrible two dimensional projection of social media, which makes everybody feel like anyone in the public eye has their life figured out. It's like news flash, none of us know nobody knows what they're doing. The most successful people in the world will admit that they feel like tomorrow is going to be the day where everyone finds out they don't know what they're doing, you know, And I love I loved hearing Oprah say that no matter who she ever interviewed. At the end of the interview, when the cameras would stop. They would lean toward her and go, did I do okay? From presidents to Beyonce, everyone just wants to know that they did okay. And and it is tricky when you when you really want to share, but then how much do you share? And and what do you keep private? And I think especially for us as women, you know, I haven't done this yet, but you have when you become a mom. You can only hide that for so long. The world is gonna know you're pregnant, They're gonna know you had a baby. How do you how do you set boundaries around what you share about the family people know you have? And I just imagine it's very complicated. Yeah it is. I mean, I I'm not like a huge celebrity, so I think I and maybe I'm being naive because I probably share more than I should because I I became apparent when I was a little bit older. So it's like every little thing that my kids do, like I want to just I'm just so proud of it and excited. But at the same time, I do think that there are you know, they're dangers to that. And on the one hand, while I think as a culture, we we are sharing so much we also are are conveying, you know, and I think everyone does this right, that things like I think our social media life is the life that we want people to see that we live, right, And I actually wish that people would be more vulnerable and I and I, I mean, there are a few people out there who do. But I think that's one of the reasons why when I was talking about how when we kind of showed that vulnerability, we're on a live stage, right, and so you can't you can't put a filter on that like you can on Instagram. You know, whatever just comes out of your mouth comes out of your mouth. But with social media now you can perfect every image and you can choose what you decide to show the world, which is empowering on the one hand, but on the other hand, I think it's really it's really made a whole generation of young people feel so much more insecure in so many ways. It's, you know, the worst aspects of high school and popularity magnified, you know, and it's and you're right, nobody has it figured out, you know, But for some reason, we now exists in this world where we feel compelled two convey that we have or that life is great when more people are I mean, I don't know, Sophia, if you if you feel this, but I've been you know, I've been in a little bit of a funk in the last couple of weeks because I've just I just feel like they're people are really hurting right now, you know, just hearing about how many suicides have happened. You know, my my good friend is the vice pro provost of wellness at USC and he text me to say that in the last three weeks there have been five suicides there, two and two days. There's something going on right now where young people are just they're they're they're hurting. And in the past, I think, I think young people have always had angst, right, but in the past they would have sought out human beings and now they're just going straight to their devices and in some cases digging themselves deeper into a hole. Yeah, because the devices perpetuate the lie that everyone else has it all figured. Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I see a bunch of girlfriends get together or for dinner and they didn't call me like I'm I feel a little like stab in the heart. Of course I was. I was here, but I get over it because I can't. It's you know, it's just like that sort of momentary kind of paying But for young people who who who in some in so many ways don't feel like life is worth living if it's not on social media. Uh, it's it's devastating. It's really devastating. And so, you know, on the one hand, I think if we if we, if we, if we show our vulnerabilities, I think it makes or allows people to relate to us. But you know, what are we really showing? Mm hmm. Yeah, And and and yet it feels so important. I sometimes when I get nervous to share something that might be you know, quote unquote too personal, I think I almost feel like it's a duty to do so, because so much of what's being shared is impersonal. And I think about how we can all kind of walk in the world and press toward kindness or self acceptance, or exploration or or curiosity. And I think we could really use it. And and it's part of the reason that I'm so glad your show is on. Really, I just I'm so relieved. And yeah, I guess I get curious about the evolution of that as well, because you know, you went from the view you ended up working for Oprah as an investigative reporter, which has just got to be the coolest thing ever. Was pretty cool because as you think about that, I mean, her show was such a touch point for so many people to learn about each other and to be vulnerable. Yeah, I really I missed that show so much. I think we all miss it. I'm like, please just come back. I know you did it and you and you served your time and it's probably really nice to be retired on your ranch, but please come back. Yeah, I missed that. Just that thoughtful dialogue every day. It's it's really hard to find that. I mean, you know that fortunately their podcasts, but to have that staple every day when you got there, well, first of all, how did you get there? And then what what kinds of stories were you asked to cover? So I went on the Open Show to promote an episode that I had done for the National Geographic Channel. At the time, I was hosting a show called Explorer, and I believe it was an episode about incarcerated mothers that we produced, and the Open Show asked me to come on and promote it, or or they agreed to allow me to come on and promote it, and Oprah and her team were I think they were really touched by the episode, but they were looking for someone to sort of send out into the world to cover those kinds of stories. And so of course it was the greatest honor of my life to have been asked to to work on her show. But it was always so surreal when I would be sitting next to her and trying to explain what I had just done and I look up and there she is. But but I I'm certain I wouldn't be doing what I am doing now if she and her team hadn't taken a risk on me or brought me into their fold and same with a view as much as I you know, it was challenged to be there because I just it was. It was an awkward kind of job, you know. They were all sort of steps to get to where I am now. But Oprah believing in me and encouraging me to tell these kinds of stories and and and her own just genuine curiosity. M hm. Really, um, I think is the reason I'm I'm doing this, you know, she she gave me the platform to be able to do that on on such a widespread level, and and and I will always be so grateful for that. Is there a story in particular from that time that really sticks out in your mind, something that just felt so so many of them continue to live with me. But when she sent me to the Democratic Republic of the Congo to work on a story about gang rape um and about these villages that would just be torn apart and ransacked, and and and the things that children were forced to watch happened to their mother or even take part in, it was so devastating. You know, whenever I would show up, I would see the audience and I would think to myself, oh my god, you came here probably to get a car, and here I'm going to be talking about gang rape in the Congo. But the audience, her audiences were always incredible and so receptive and in in in one episode of television, I think that about three million dollars was raised for the organization that I accompanied to report that story. It might not have been that airing, it might have been like multiple airings, but cumulatively, about three million dollars was raised. And that's when I recognized one the power of Oprah. I mean, you know, of course we all know her to be you know, she's Oprah, but that people really did want to know about things that were happening in the world, and that it required someone like Oprah right to say, look, I know there's a lot happening in the world, and it's it's it's it's hard to get invested in people in far away places. But here's why it's important that you're aware that this is happening. I mean, what she did for her audience, it's just it's indescribable. It can never be replaced. And the impact that she made on so many people is just colossal. That's so cool. What do you think you learned about yourself when you were working on that show? What I learned about myself so much. I learned that everything that I do moving forward, every job that I ever take or do, I want to have an impact. Um. I want to contribute positively to the conversation because I can. You can choose to contribute positively in what you do, in how you act, in what you put out into the universe, and and and watching her do so and getting an opportunity on her platform to be able to do that just really solidified that desire in me to just want to put productive energy out there into the world. Productive energy. I like that. Now you mentioned something earlier and I just think it's an incredible story. You mentioned that your sister is also a journalist, and Laura was on assignment in North Korea. She was on assignment in South Korea and China. Yeah, that was where we thought she was going. That's where she was, and she was held captive in North Korea. Right what she and her team hired a fixer, someone who had worked with different television outlets before, to take them to observe the thoroughfare where people were escaping from North Korea and and and seeking refuge in China. So they hire this fixer to just show them where the the line of demarcation is. And it is believed that he had nefarious intentions and intentionally took them to cross the border into North Korea. And when they when they realized that they had crossed into North Korea and they were they had turned around and they were heading back to the Chinese side, they heard soldiers yelling and they started to run and they were firmly on the Chinese side of the border when North Korean soldiers crossed into another country, violated their their national sovereignty, and violently dragged my sister in her colleague back into North Korea. So yeah, it was pretty rrowing, pretty arrowing experience. And and she was then held for five months inside a country with which we have no diplomatic relationship. And even though I had worked as a journalist for many the years, you know, I thought that we could just pick up a phone and call and negotiate a release. But when two countries have no diplomatic relationship, you just you can't even do that. So it was a pretty pretty arduous ordeal, to say the least, and uh and terrifying. I can't even fathom. I'm just so I'm awe struck by what both of your experiences must have been on each end of of that reality for five months. And I'm curious to your point, because we have no relationship, and you know, asterisk what what's happening now is utterly insane. And I wonder how you even begin, because you know the severity of the reality there as a journalist, and you worked so frantically to get her free, and it took so long, and I wonder how you even know where to start. Well, you don't. I mean I called everyone I knew, and over time I had developed quite a quite a role intex of contacts in the in the in the world of diplomacy, and I just I tried to get in contact with everyone I could, and I was just, you know, I found myself at an impast time and time again, people like Oprah called me to see, you know, to see if she could do anything. But even Oprah couldn't do anything. And former presidents and secretaries of state, and really it was it was my sister who convinced her captors that in order to achieve what they wanted, they had to allow her to call me. So, you know, it was at a time when tensions were very high between our two country reason, I mean, they're always they're always tense. But President Obama was was new in office. Hillary Clinton, it was she was she was brand new secretary of State, and it was imperative for her to talk tough on North Korea, to to to not show weakness. And here North Korea was trying to procure political concessions out of out of their captivity, and so it was it was it's a real time to be in the midst of that. And in the end, people may not recall that Bill Clinton was asked to be the envoy to go and negotiate the release of my sister and her colleague. And when he went over there, he he said that the former leader of North Korea, Kim Jong Ill, told him that the reason why the North Korean government insisted that Bill Clinton go and negotiate my sister's wilid was because he'd always wanted to meet him. He always wanted to meet Bill Clinton. And the reason was because when Kim Jong Ill's father, the founder of North Korea, Kim Il sung, died, Bill Clinton was the first world leader to call and offer his condolences, even before any of North Korea's allies called, and it was a gesture of humanity that he had never forgotten. And so you know, and again this this goes back to communication. It all goes back to communication. And here you had two countries that have historically had this very contentious relationship, or as long as North Korea has existed, had this contentious relationship. But those gestures of humanity and diplomacy had had an impact. Goes to show that even at that level, engagement can be really productive. You know, I think it's a it's a lesson to learn for all of us on a macro scale, but also, you know, on a very micro scale. How how do you think that that experience affects the way that you think about traveling? Because when you talk about going somewhere like the Congo to expose rape as a weapon of war, or some of these other incredibly dangerous places Afghanistan that you've been to, how how does having been through that with your sister, and I would imagine coupled with the reality of you being a parent, how does that affect at this stage in your career as a journalist where you will and won't go well? Now as a mother, I'm certainly more cautious about where I go, But I've never felt as strongly about promoting and supporting journalists who really do risk their lives to tell stories and to communicate things that are happening in the world. I mean, when I was doing most of my international work, the world was a different place. America was so highly regarded, and the world has changed. People don't feel the same way anymore, and so again, the risks that journalists are taking now I think far outway those that I took as a younger journalist. But nevertheless, I do I do think that we, you know, we need to exercise caution in choosing where we go, but actually going, I think is more important than ever. Actually traveling to different parts of the world and embedding and immersing oneself in cultures that are unfamiliar. I think there's just there's just so much value to that. And the way I looked at it when I would visit places that are known to be contentious is that for me, I would go in for a couple of weeks max, and then I would leave. But the people who live under those conditions have to do so every every day of their lives. And so if I can somehow communicate a fraction of how they live or things that are happening in their lives, then I will I will have have have done my job and encourage people to know more about their lives. So yeah, for me, travel has been just, without question, the best education that I've ever received. That's beautiful, And can I ask before we wrap up, truly, because I'm just curious about how you view this as a person with such incredible geopolitical knowledge and expertise, When we talk about your sister's story, and we look at this destabilization of America's place in the world, and how far down the latter we've fallen as a as a respectable and sort of trustworthy world leader. Looking at what's going on with Trump and North Korea right now, what what do you make of all of this? So interestingly enough, when my sister was being held captive, it was communicated to me through her that the North Korean government just wanted to have dialogue. They wanted to have direct dialogue with the United States, and they hadn't really ever had that kind of direct dialogue. You know, there have been a number of Secretaries of State who have interacted with the North Korean leadership, but but in limited doses, right, And so it seemed ludicrous what the Trump administration is doing, and in many ways it is. And it's confounding to call someone who to call a a a zealot like Kim Jong un his buddy or his friend, and to say that he has a he's in love with him is just is ludicrous. Someone who you know, as at the helm of a country filled with with with goologs, where people who express dissent for the government can be tortured or worse. But I am a proponent of direct dialogue. I am because whatever we've done in the past hasn't worked. And North Korea is the kind of country that that and and the North Korean leadership is one where saving face that sort of adheres to the principle of saving face. And when you're constantly sort of talking tough and antagonizing, you you, you arrive at an impass And so I do think that constant engagement is something that that that could be productive. And so while I have again I am confounded by by his approach to these relationships because he's discounting the egregiousness of of his behavior and his policies. I'm talking about Kim Jong Moon. I am a proponent of having meaningful dialogue. I guess I just wish it felt meaningful rather than you know, in pardon the expression, but it feels very masturbatory to me, like these two malignant narcissists are just stroking each other's ego, but that our leader is so naive to the reality that while he's having his ego stroked and enjoying it, North Korea is amassing nuclear warheads and testing them so flagrantly. You know, they're they're testing missiles to let us know that and that they're growing countries is on the verge of utter chaos and starvation, and that thousands of people are in goologs there. Yeah, I mean, it's it's you know, there's there's there's you know, there's such male ego driving our policy. Right so so so there's no simple answer to that that question. I'm confounded. But at the same time, I am a proponent of dialogue. Sure, I just don't think that's how we arrive at meaningful dialogue. Right, yeah, agree, cool, Thank you. I just wanted to pick your brain on that. When when we get into the show, now, when we talk about This is Life premier on CNN or listeners, the first episode talked about sugar daddies and sugar babies, and since then you've you've covered everything from life in prison to the Satanic Temple, female m A fighters, children of killers, gender fluidity, so many incredible topics. And as you mentioned, you immerse yourself in these communities. You really get in there and do the work of becoming familiar and listening in and offering real intimate understanding to people. I'm curious how you pick the topics, because as a person who is so interested in so many things, I'm always so relieved. I'm like, God, I wanted to know about that, and I wanted to know about this, and you're You're in all of it, and I'm curious how you decide and at times how you become aware of some of these niche communities. Well, we, my team and I we are a pretty voracious consumers of information, and every season will put together a pretty exhaustive list of of things that we want to cover, and CNN ultimately green lights the eight that we move forward on. But um, what we do try to do every season is pick a number of pretty hard hitting, provocative, but very relevant topics. This season, we our season premiere is about pornography addiction. And you know, porn has been in existence forever. People become addicted to porn forever. But the pornography that young kids are getting exposed to today, as you know, at earlier ages than ever before, the age of entry in most cases is eight. Um, And to say that it's extreme is to grossly understate the severity of what kids are getting exposed to on devices that live on their bodies. It's having a tremendous impact on how kids are perceiving sex relationships because once you see the things that they can access at the tip of their fingertips, they can't erase it. You know, it's embedded in their minds forever. And parents need to realize that the moment you give your child the device, they're going to have access to this no matter what restriction do you have. If you just put the word porn into Google and click on images, you will be appalled by what comes up. And so that that is an issue that again it's it is having such an impact on the way young people are perceiving relationships and and and really I think young people are are are now currently unable boll to even have healthy relationships as a result of what they've what they've seen, which is so different than the porn that we were exposed to when we were kids. I mean, it couldn't be more different. We have a piece about benzodiazepines which I believe could possibly become the next opioid crisis. We're talking about valium zan x at a van klonopin. If we've never been prescribed them we know people who are probably taking them or and have been taking them for a long time. Our episode is so it's shocking, it's important, it's illuminating, and I think people need to wake up. You know, these are medications that are supposed to treat anxiety. Yet we're more anxious than than we've ever been. So we again, we get we we we take on a number of pretty pretty heavy topics, but we also have an episode about swingers and an episode about the bond between identical twins, so we try to vary it up. And it's really I think that if you watch an entire season, you will you'll just have so many, so many unique experiences, and if we do our jobs right, we will have we will have compelled you and provoked you to really think about things that you you might have otherwise not thought about, and talk about things that you might have otherwise not thought. It's just it's so exciting to me and I and I think it's so cool that you're exploring this gamut of topics from you know, your point about the twins. I'm fascinated by that sort of ability to feel fans and pain that twins have and and that sort of knowing that they experience. Yeah, it's such a beautiful episode. I I've always I've also been just really fascinated by identical twins. And you know, you're asking me, how do you come up with the topics? Really, as I told you as a kid, I have always had this insatiable curious city. And to be able to do a show and and and pitch you know, cultures and worlds and topics that I'm just fascinated by is pretty cool. And from simply fascinating to taboo and to not shy away from any of them, because again, you know, we are all part of the same race. You know, we are human beings, and I've always believed that the more we know about each other the better, the better we become, the smarter we become, and ultimately the better we become. Absolutely, what what advice do you have for young people who want to get into investigative journalism. Well, if your intention is to become rich and famous, you're in the wrong line of work. But if you if you do have an insatiable curiosity, if you think about yourself as a sponge that just derives pleasure from absorbing as much as you can, it's still a pretty incredible line of work. To be exposed to so many different kinds of things and worlds and people is really exciting and and for those who are wanting to pursue it, I would say, leave your comfort zone. Learned write right about when you leave your comfort zone, and you know there are more outlets available to journalists and aspiring journalists and ever before. Again, you may not make a tremendous amount of money by submitting your work, but there are more outlets for it to be read or seen than than ever before. So I would say go for it because I think it's a pretty it's a pretty exciting time in the world of journalism. It's a very different time than when I first started. But there are a lot of opportunities that's exciting. And what do you think. I'm sure there's been a lot, But is there a piece of best advice that stands out to you that you received over the course of your career? Thus far? Had so many, there's so many sort of quotes that live in my head right But for me, I've always just tried to be a really good listener. I know that's cliche, but in that we've we've really stopped hearing each other. I think it's it's never been more important to convey the importance of being a good listener. Mm hmm. So the title of the podcast is called work in progress, and I'm curious when you hear that phrase, what comes to mind is something that you are still are currently in progress your life so much, Sophia. I mean, it's it's it's to your point when we first started about how we're all trying to figure it out. You know, when you introduce me, you expressed this really impressive bio. Right. I've I've done a lot of things. I've worked with some extraordinary people, I've worked for some incredible outlets. But every day is a journey and and and and I love absorbing every day and and that's why I feel so honored to be able to do what I do. It's why I love to feel so much because I don't, like, I want to be able to remember every day that I'm alive. You know, I don't. I don't want to do things in a perfunctory way, and I don't want things to get stagnant. I really would like to remember something about every day that I'm alive, because you know, our our, our space in this universe is not infinite. Yeah, and I and I feel really privileged to be able to be invited into so many different worlds. And if I can be that catalyst for people becoming more aware, or for for for developing a little more compassion, for feeling just feeling at all, then that's something that makes me really proud. I love that. Thank you, Thank you. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley, Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Clearly an Anatomy