Work in Progress with Sophia BushThere are triple threats, quadruple threats, and then there is E.R. Fightmaster . . . non-binary actor, writer, comedian, producer, and musician.
The multi-hyphenate opens up to Sophia about being the first non-binary character on "Grey's Anatomy," loving and fighting for their community, their journey of self-discovery, and the importance of representation in media.
Plus, E.R. talks about their new music debuting later this month and why they chose to call their EP "Violence."
Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey Whipsmarty's Happy National coming out Day. I am so thrilled to be joined by one of my favorite humans who is also a perfect guest on a day like today, none other than Er fight Master. They are an incredible actor, musician, and writer. Er earned a degree from DePaul University in Women and Gender Studies, which they explain has influenced their comedy, their writing, and everything about the way they perform in the world. In twenty twenty, Er was named a member of the CBS creative and writing team to lead the Studio Actors Showcase. Following a two season stint on Hulu's Shrill. In twenty twenty one, Er was cast in a recurring role on Gray's Anatomy as the show's first non binary doctor, and you will hear them explain why it was such a pleasure to represent their community existing so joyfully on that show. And most recently, they've started a solo music project under the name fight Master. Their debut EP, Violence is set to be released on October twentieth, and we are going to talk all about it. Hello, my dear, how are you?
It's good to see you.
It's nice to see you. Okay, so tell us what's going on in your world. I feel like we have so much to talk about today, but I just want to check in, Okay.
I'm just I'm getting the I'm getting. This computer is. I can't tell you how precariously situated it is on a part of a shoe box.
Yeah, mine's on a box.
Yeah.
So I had this like cool little computer stand and then I took it on a trip and maybe I left it and now I just I'm back on a box.
You can't travel with anything cool because that it disappears. Like I went on a trip recently and I had this beautiful Fuji camera that I've been using for years, probably like four years, and I put it on the top of a car while a lot was going on, and then I drove away, and so uh and I you know, you know where you're like that they're just possessions, They're just possessions. I think about that thing every day.
Yeah because it was great.
Yeah, because it was wonderful, and I can buy another one. But you know that, you know that stubborn feeling is like when you lost it, where you're like, I can buy another one. Uh, I can't. I'm not going to replace it. I'm just gonna suffer with what I've done.
You'll suffer for a while and then you'll break and you'll buy one on eBay.
Damn it, I'm already looking. Yeah.
Okay, So aside from losing things, what else have you been up to.
Well, I've been putting out I've been putting out an EP and it's been really fun. The EPs called Violence, and you know, it's the first project I've always done art and like team environments. Like I started out doing comedy and that's a big team sport if you're not doing stand up. And and then I you know, I was on I acted on some series and then and that's a team sport. And then I was a writer on a series and that's definitely a team sport. And this was and I was in a band before before fight Master, which is the name of my current project, and this one. It was like, it's just been so nice to be like, oh, I'm like the team leader and the whole the team is like I'm bringing in people to help me, but this is my thing. And so that's been really cool. Like every everything I've I saw a Tyler Creator. I think like interview once where he was like, you can't be embarrassed about promoting your work. You can't be promote embarrassed about promoting your art because that basically it means it's bad art. Like if you love the art you made, you have the shamelessly promote it. And that's where I am right now, and like just talking to everybody about the CP because I love it.
I love that. Okay, so being a team sport kid and I want to well, actually I'm going to start all the way back where I normally do because I just said kid and reminded myself we'll come back to this more present day question. But I love because listen, so many of the people I interview, like people know you. They know you from music, where they know you from comedy, or they know you from Grace, or they know you from you know who you are in the world and who you encourage people to be. But like I always want to know where people who I have like friend crushes or brain crushes on started out, Like who were you when you were a kid at eight years old? Were you creative and inspired by others and wanting to make art or were you in like a completely different version of yourself. But now you can see how you grew in to today you from eight year old you like, where where does it fall?
I like this question because it's it's so it's so much more specific than like tell me about you, which like people do want you to start from the beginning. But like the question of like who was I as a person? I'm so similar. I think that the thing that has changed is as I've gotten older, I've gotten like calmer and kinder, you know, like frontal lobe development.
Okay, wait, say more about that.
Like when I was a kid, I think this is truly funnel ope shit, But like when I was a kid, I was like I was actually I was playing music from the time of a six and I was the funny one. So like all of those things were in play, and I was already playing sports and I was all I was playing team sports. And but I was like a really rough and tumble kid that got into a lot of fire and made jokes. Not I was not a bully, I can firmly say that. But I gotten a lot of fights and I made jokes that were other kids expense if I thought that they were apples and and I actually think that that's mostly the thing that has changed. Like I still have gotten in some fights as adult, but i'm i'm, I just feel so much more soft about other people's humanity, even the little like war war spirit of self is still there. Like you know, calling this last this EP violence was because I had this really serious kind of awakening recently where I was reading this book called the Communism of Love, and it was talking about how basically, like inside of love, non violence is a myth, like if you love something, violence is inherent to that love. And it's it's inherent because you can see all these marginalized communities that are like constantly getting you know, their throats are stepped on it. And if you love your community, you will fight for it. If you love your partner, you will fight for them. And so I actually do feel as violent as I did when I was a kid. It's just now I have the integrity behind it. Like why am I feeling violent? I'm feeling violent because they are making trans people feel scared all the time. I'm feeling violent because someone's saying with my gal like that. Now I know where the violence is coming from as opposed to being like, you know, just a kid that wanted to experiment with how strong I was.
Yeah. Wait, I love that. I love the reframing of violence, violence as not being something where you are lashing out or where you are indiscriminately hurting someone. I've thought about that softening that you talk about, which I find that I'm experiencing as I get older as well. I have always chosen, you could say, like chosen violence. I've always chosen to stand up for people, and especially marginalized people. And what I've learned is that there is the ability to kind of direct that energy, like when you really think about the tip of the spear. I think a lot about how I always want to re examine if I am fighting for or I'm fighting with. I am less interested in fighting with my enemies than I am in fighting for my community. Like I don't necessarily want to get into a waste of time tete a tet with someone who, as you just highlighted, wants to deny the existence of trans folks. Like no, I'm I'm going to make sure that my activism helps to absolutely annihilate your ability to say these horrible transphobic things. We're not gonna We're not gonna do this, But can my choice of violence be loving for yes and with my people?
Uh huh. I love that. And I think that we're what we're doing now is we're making we're making a distinction between violence and domination. Like I think a lot of you know, we will use this example to the end of time. But when you look at like a patriarchy and like these like sis white men right that have been like lifted to the top, they have used violence as a tool of domination. But violence itself is the tool. It's not that it's not the big thing that we're worried about, like we want to say that we're non violent, because we're we're actually saying I know, I don't want to dominate other people, But so we have to reframe violence as it's it's the practice of not being a bystander for my own community. I'm not ever going to watch anybody I love get injured and not not become violent, Like I'm never that's never gonna happen for me because I don't want to be a visaoner. But I will never enact violence as a tool to dominate Afro problem. Nothing that's I hate domination. I love violence.
Yeah, ooh, a re a re designation of the meaning of a word makes my little like nerdy journalism brain get very excited, like very excited. And when I think about myself as a kid, like all that curiosity, all that stuff that I that I had at you know, six or eight tracks to now And I love knowing that you can look back at yourself at six and eight and be like, yeah, I'm the same, I've just gotten better.
Were you I know about your work as an adult. Were you a kid acter too? Did you start young? No?
I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I was like, okay, I had no desire to do any of this. Life just sort of picked me up and like took me down a path. And I had an arts requirement in school. I had to do a play. I was super pissed about it. One of my best friends from junior high in high school, who I'm still best friends with, is like such a typical theater kid, Like she's always singing show tunes and she's hilarious, but like we're just not the same. I was like, I don't do theater like Betsy does theater. And then we did a play together and I was like, oh my god, it's a book come alive. And people were like, you are so embarrassingly nerdy, like stop talking, and I just loved it. And then I decided I wanted to go to theater school. And then I got to theater school and like all anybody wanted to do was like sit in a black box room and talk about their craft, and I was like, I cannot do this then losing my mind. So I transferred into the journalism school at USC and I studied journalism and acting and that hybrid is like it's what I do now, and it it was really how I found myself. And so it's cool, like you're saying from this vantage point to be able to look back and go like, oh yeah, that tracks all of that tracks.
Ooh, I love that, and you know I love I like talking to I think. I think a lot of times are we actually are exactly the same people that we were as children, but along the way it gets disappeared, and it usually gets disappeared because of whatever our marginalized status is. Like you you can see when you look at little boys that like oftentimes like we'll joke about like he's the exact same dude, but we don't get that with like people that have to adjust to survive and and so I think it's fun now when you know we're talking about really be all being in the process of becoming. Is this actually it's the process of returning to who we were at the very beginning with the tools that we have now, like with the positive things that we've gotten along the way. And I like that. I'm excited that you're kind of the same bad bitch.
Yeah, but but I feel that I feel like I'm returning. I yeah, you know, I have had a wild summer. I also just turned forty one, and I said it, honestly, I feel I feel hot, like and I've never felt like that, which lol for like a you know, a girl who like played the hot cheerleader on her first show. I was ever comfortable with it. I hated the clothes, I hated everything about it. I came to love that character. But I truly, for the first time in my life, feel embodied, like in my being and in my identity. And I realized that, you know, I got on a TV show a week after my twenty first birthday and it has been a twenty year cycle for me of being a good soldier, a good employee, a good girl, being a good daughter of immigrants. That you know, that's a forty year job for me, like all the things I've done, and I like, I feel like I've taken the book of my adulthood that was really about I didn't even know, like I was so culture to do what I should and to do what was good for everybody else that I had no idea how often I had turned my back on myself. And I've taken the should book and like shut it and I threw it in the fire. And now I'm in the want era, Like what do I want? What do I desire? What do I want to go and explore? Rather than what are people putting in front of me? And what will I choose of the options they give me? So that I don't appear to need any more or to have any greed, or to have any more ambition than anyone else tells me? Is appropriate?
Like that?
And to find your identity when you didn't even realize you'd lost it is like a wild journey, yes, And I know how profound it feels for me. And when I look around my community at like all of the diverse women and queer people in my life who stand in their identities, who are on their own journey of identity, Like, you know, I even look at our new friendship, but like the profound conversations we've had, and I think, like, look at you just standing in yourself, Like when when did you give yourself permission to be exactly who you are? Or did you always just know that you deserved to have it? Take it be it.
I I don't think I thought about it as deserving. I think that there was a point at which I decided or I realized I was only ever going to be me, and everything changed. Like it's not that everything changed and then everything was wonderful, Like I still had a lot of growing to do, but like when I was in high school, I was having this like not having the language for being gay and not really seeing any gay people and so actually just feeling this like massive like hole of discontent and kind of confusion all the time that like manifested in like a pretty solid, you know, depression. Then once I got to college and I saw other queer people and I saw people existing, I was like, oh, okay, as long as I can name myself then I I can deal with who I am, and I can deal with my life. But before I could name myself, I couldn't handle any of those things. So everything, I guess to clarify this thought, I never pretended to be anybody but myself, but I did need the language of self recognition. I had to have that in order then to pursue who I am.
Yeah, it's almost like the vision coming to me while you talk is like of nesting dolls, and it's like when you're in, when you're in the little core, and what fits inside that tiny doll is all the information you have or the language or the access. That's what you have. And then you go up a size and you have more words, and you have maybe a bigger community or more resources, or you see more people who make you understand yourself. And like, through our lives, I feel like, you know, we shed a size and we grow and we grow and we grow hopefully, you know, if you're lucky enough to continue to expand. But it sounds like you're talking about that natural sort of evolutionary expansion of self that can only happen as you collect like knowledge, space, mirrors, experiences.
Well, I think that's what you're talking about. With this like group of friends that we have now, it's like we're we're with a lot of people that have had to learn about their own identity because actually we're in the public eye, and so we've had this kind of like crash course a lot faster, Like we had to learn things by twenty five that maybe people don't have to learn un till thirty five.
And so we're.
Around a bunch of people that feel energetically a nesting doll size bigger than they should. And so we're in this room full of like somehow these like energetic giants that because they're constantly being watched, I had to be like, Okay, if I'm being witnessed all the time, I need to know who I am. I don't have any time to not know how I am. And I don't have a lot of time to not be kind to myself, because if I want to go online and see a comment telling me to kill myself, I'm gonna find it, you know what I mean. So I have to be my own ally. I have to do my own becoming. I have to be really firm. I have to look for the language to describe myself. I have to read about that language constantly, and here I am in a room full of people who have done the same work. That feels awesome.
That's really a beautiful way to put it. I feel that more recently, and I think for me and my experience, I was so so subconsciously encouraged to serve others for so long, and by the way, serving others is one of the things I like best about myself. But it was a really uneven scale.
And you want to consent to it, you want it to be your decision.
Yeah, And so it's been really interesting to figure out how I can be more than just the person making sure everyone else has what they need, but learning to learning to sort of in that bigger sized doll of myself that likes to be good to people in the world, how she can look at one of the smaller ones inside of her and like remother or or care in a new way for past versions of myself that I never prioritized. I never thought I was allowed to do that.
I like just one of the way that I like watching you at the Angel City Games because I think I think you have a really great you have a really great, joyful energy, and that's something I really love about, like you know, like my friends, like the people that I that I just adore the most is like the core thing that I think of them usually is like they've got good does a joy And I love watching you at the Angel City Games because I think in this like pursuit to really push women's sports to the forefront. What what we have over the years of watching men's sports is we have shots of these fans having an awesome time, right Like all these men's sports have always been televised. We've got Spike Spike Lee in the front row of these games, smiling and a cool outfit. We've got we have all these images of people joyfully watching the game. And women's sports has been adored for so long or not even televised for so long that like you going in there and being on the jumbotrons smiling all big with these like pink rosy cheeks, just having the time of your life, pulling the little shot of whatever alcohol that was, Like it's it's you're making it seem like such a fun party. And I actually think that's our job right now. It's like it's our job to go to women's sports and be joyful and bring people in through that.
Joy well, and it is the most fun Like those are my most fun nights. I love seeing the crew. I love rooting for our team. I also love that we overarchingly root for the whole league. Yes you know, it's like no matter who wins, I think we all win. And it's funny because I remember back in the day, like when I first became friends with Abby wamback it was truly just as a fan, like a crazy and she was like, yo, you and your friends are like up at four am Instagram storying like World Cup games at sports bars that you've convinced to open in the middle of the night in La and we were like I was like yeah, because we're obsessed. Like I grew up playing Aiso soccer, die for soccer, have terrible asthma. I am not meant to be a runner. So like the fact that that little girl who always loved soccer has grown up to be friends with like you know, Abby and Pino and all of our national team players who by the way, went on to SOFIFA and win legends. Like those women are my friends. What and now we own a soccer team, Like what are we talking about? This this whole adventure that you know started for me at seven has has at forty one, become larger than my wildest dreams. And yeah, I think it's the reason that so many of us who become friends through that world go, oh, we're the same, Like I see you. There's there's joy in this and there's also purpose in this And what a what a sick thing to merge like in your hotness and in your world? Do you when you talk about finding because I think I think a lot about how this world helps a lot of people find their identities. Like part of the joy in our in our fan base of women's soccer is the diversity and the inclusion. And and you talked about your perspective on like diversity and identity changing when you went to college, and I know you come from like you know, Chicago improv legendary world, which I loved. Did you go to college in Chicago or did you make your way there after college? Like how did that timeline work for you?
I started at school in Cincinnati, I started college in Cincinnati, and then a Chicago improv troup, the Second City came and did a show in Cincinnati, and I took a workshop with them, and once I took an improv workshop, it was like I was a true convert, Like it was all over for me. And so I transferred schools to DePaul so that I wouldn't disappoint anyone and finish getting a degree. But then I was taking classes at Second City the whole time, and I was like I took classes, it was every night, and I was performing every night. And then during the day I was going to school. But the the awesome part then I tell, oh my god, I tell all the kids that I ever teach improv this like, you don't need to have an art degree to do art. You do not need to do that. In fact, sometimes it's really nice to be informed by something else, like I have a Women in Gender Studies degree. Yeah, I think having a women and Gender Studies degree made me a better improviser because it actually people think that, like the that comedy is all about that unfunny. People think comedy is all about being inappropriate and rude or cruel. But good comedy is about bringing together as many people in the room as possible for one joke. And if you study something like gender studies, which is like really studying feminism and you know, feminism being the belief that we're all equal. You're creating a brain space for yourself where you do believe those things, so you're not Actually I'm never worried about making a joke now about that's going to offend a group of people, because I actually don't feel that way about a group of people, you know what I mean. And I saw a lot of the guys that I was a around think that they were like pushing boundaries by like making jokes. It was like, but that the reason that that's reading to the audience as like racist or sexist or unkind is because it actually is a belief of yours. So so like people will say that like feminist aren't funny, Like I'm funny because I'm a feminist.
Yes, I love that And now for our sponsors, Okay, So in that space, like your college career studying gender finding comedy, you know, you talked about getting to college and being able to see more of who you were because you got to see other people living as themselves. Like where you know, because it is National coming out Day. Where where in the journey of those years for you did you because you said you went, oh, I am gay, and then I wonder, like, where where in the journey of your life did you say, actually, like even binary labels don't fit me, like I am a non binary person. Was it sort of like a was it one and then the other? Or do you look back and realize like when you just knew.
Well, I think that like if we're not talking about gender and sex and sexuality as relational like that's that's the gender studies world. So when I was in college with all of these awesome queer people, I will be honest, I wasn't really thinking about the people I was around in the terms that we use really publicly now of like I mean, it's gonna say, this is gonna sound kind of bizarre, but like I wasn't thinking about them in terms of like woman and man and sis and trans. I was thinking about people more actually, in a more honestly gendered way where I was like, there, I'm butch and and that's my fem friend, and my fem friend can be a trans a trans person, or my friend can be a SIS woman or and so I was thinking, and I kind of do when I'm in queer spaces, that is how I think about people. And then I was leaving that bubble and I was going out into the world, and I was having people call me she in a way that I realized that all of their connotations of she wasn't where my gender was like. And so the really becoming like finding their language for a non binary for me was like, I have a more wholesome understanding than American cultural gender, like of gender than American cultural gender. I have an understanding of gender as energetic. Then I would rather be perceived for my energy my gender then have cultural American gender laid on me every time someone meets me, because that's always going to disappoint people. And I just want people to meet me, and so that's non binary for me. It's like I want people to meet me the human being. I don't need people to meet me and go, well, I know what your privates look like, and so here's what I'm going to treat you as. To me, it's a little perverted.
Yeah, I mean deeply. And something that I find really interesting is how there are so many people who just don't know that that's often the experience that we're met with based on other people's assumptions or estimations of our gender or our bodies and the way that that ripples into the way that they estimate or assume about our behavior, our desire, our capability. It's big.
Mh. Well, and it's it's not. I think people think that when you're when you're talking about like leaving the binary, that you say that you don't have respect for. We're never talking about men when we talk about this. We're always talking about womanhood, where we're like, but I actually respect womanhood so much, but I respect it as this massive institution, like really truly this like energetic institution. So I don't reduce womanhood to having a vagina. I some of like the most profound women I know are trans and some of the most you know, profound women I know are ses. And so actually, then what we're talking about is we're like, oh, then we're not talking about privates anymore. We're talking about like when I meet a woman, I'm so attracted to womanhood and it's to me, being a woman is the biggest thing you can be. And I I respect she her prono for that exact thing, Like I think women are the biggest thing you can be, and so I love when women use the she her pronouns that feel good for them. For me, that was not the fit, and so it was not me. When I actually when I started switching uh my pronouns today them, I remember feeling this like almost this feeling like I had abandoned womanhood. But my reverence for womanhood is so far beyond most people's that it's it leaving behind womanhood. But there was a little bit of mourning, and then I realized that I was like I could watch it from the stands so much more comfortably than I could pretend to be a part of it.
That's really beautiful. I think there's something very cool about being able to sort of like shuck the the like little box that society wants to put you in, and say, like if I zoom out. I try to think about this a lot when I'm trying to make sense of how I feel about something, or I want to consider other perspectives. I think about, like zooming out to the bird's eye view. I'm like, Okay, if I were looking at this from an airplane, what would it be like? And I feel like listening to you, I get almost that vision of you being able to zoom out and say, oh, I'm able to see what this means in such a larger sense about who we are, not just what we're told we fit into. And one of the things I've found really profound this summer in like studying the world around me through a new lens and identity is And you mentioned this, like the danger of patriarchy when you talk about the reverence for womanhood, like my reverence for matriarchal energy, like true centered society on that womanhood, if you will, like absolutely, I know exactly what you mean when you say some of the most incredible women you know are trance, Like there is such a bigger that bigger zoom out, And I don't know that I exactly have the words to respond in exactly the way I want to to what you're saying, but like it's because it's for me right now. It's like vision, Like you're saying something to me and my brain is animating it and I just feel it and like my insights are like, yes, exactly that exactly what you're saying.
Well, you know, I think you and I have talked a little bit about it in terms of like, you know, having children and not having children, Like I think the you can the worst part about American culture right now is that if you were to describe womanhood through an American cultural lens, you would use a bunch of things that don't actually apply to like all women, you know what I mean, right you would be you would hear the terms mother a bunch, you would think about genitoles. And I actually think that that's a very concerted effort on the part of a patriarchy that doesn't want women to know how vast and powerful they are. And I think that womanhood is such a powerful thing to be a part of that they have they do have a stake in keeping people from joining the ranks, you know, trying to keep trans women out of womanhood. That's less people in the ranks of womanhood, and womanhood is the most powerful thing on earth. Trying to tell women that they're not women enough because they don't have children, or that they're not sexy anymore because they do have children, or they're not power they're not sexy anymore because they've aged, aka, they're coming into their power. Like we have put so many many rules on what it means to be a good woman that like there's like a three year period where you can be a good woman and you're never actually going to be doing it right, whereas manhood think about how much easier it is, how much more broad it is to be a man. And so I do think that that's That's something that I'm also coming into is like being you know, we talk about this like sports community, you're singing a bunch of good women that he didn't listen to kind of anything you were told about being a woman. Like they lift weights, they're playing sports, they're their own business. The ones that did have children had had children while being told that they'd never be able to do both. Some of these women you know will never have children and while being told that they should. It's like you get in sports this like beautiful microcosm of a bunch of women being like, no, I kind of decide what woman is to me?
Yeah, cool, I love it. I love it. It really is so so cool. And when when we look at all these spaces that I think we are able to change by being part of them, do you do you feel that way also in your career because like you know, people people got so excited, like when when you hit the show in twenty twenty one, right, that was that was the first year, like being the first non binary character on Grays Like, did that feel amazing? Is it like a point of pride? Is it like it's about time? Is it all the things?
I really feel so honored. I feel so honored by by Grays, like by the whole experience, by being able to reach a bunch of people that might not have had access to that language. And you know, there's always been non binary people, but being being a messenger for my community has been such an honor. And I think actually one of the big goals that I had when I was playing Kai was and I feel this way about like the songs that I write too, It's like I'm trying to because I feel like a very masculine person without feeling like a man. I want to show healthy masculinity. And we were able to play the storyline where one of the like the beautiful you know Fami leads is attracted to me and we don't make it. We didn't make it this big deal except like the last guy that she with is you know, Chris is math like, he's just like a big bodybuilder type in the the next person that she dates is me. And what we were showing there without ever having to say it was these are all there are a bunch of different versions of masculinity, and you don't have to pick You don't have to pick men, and you don't have to you don't have to pick anything. If you're attracted to masculinity, consider that being what you're attracted to. And a lot of people did text me that they had like had a sexual awakening after that experience, and it wasn't about me, it was I think about It was about exactly that. It was, Oh, I'm attracted to this person and this is not a Sai sat man. Maybe it's masculinity, which I loved. That was like, really I thought, almost like mischievous about that whole process.
That's so exciting. Converts well, just to broaden people's horizons, to remind people that they're allowed to choose for themselves, that they're allowed to pursue themselves their desire, their curiosity, Like so many people don't realize they're not doing that until they realize they can.
Yes, we'll be back in.
Just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.
You were on the show easy, you did that, Yes, and that's how you know our wonderful friend Jacqueline. Yeah, experience like for you.
I mean so fun for me, and it's it's really funny I had. I had this conversation one of our one of our mutual friends from the women's Sports World was like, oh easy, Season three, episode three, She's like, it's our favorite, and I was like, who's favorite. She was like all of us, all of the soccer players. I was like, I can die for you.
Hell yeah, you know.
I I was really fortunate because I grew up with a dad who's an artist in a very queer community. Like my dad was an advertising and beauty photographer. Like my uncles. You know, my family uncles are like all gay men that are like makeup artists and stylists and hairdressers like I grew up. You know, my my uncle Jeff's husband Winston did drag Is Diana Ross every weekend. Like I grew up in this really special community in the eighties in La like, you know, experiencing the multiculturalism of this city, and of course like not having the knowledge and language I have now to know about like zoning and disparity and all the things I now understand. But diversity in every realm was never strange to me. It was always the coolest thing about where I lived. And you know, at eight years old, like Melissa Ethridge was my absolute icon. I just went to the opening of her Broadway show and literally was like, come to my window, raised me like that was that was like my and you know, I one of my first jobs ever, I was. I was a recurring character on that show Nip Tuck, and I was a bisexual teenager. And like I've always when I've had the opportunity too, loved to play queer characters. I love being part of this community.
And yeah, Easy was.
So so fun for me because it was just the opportunity not only to lean into a character that I loved, but to help co create her. Yeah, because Joe Swamberg writes outlines for his projects, but not scripts, So Easy is improv.
Do you think most of the audience knows that? Because I think that's like the most impressive part about the show.
Same, like, I think it's really fascinating. And Joe does this really cool thing where you spend a full day as the cast of the episode, like adventuring around Chicago together all day before you shoot, and so you wind up, as we do as actors, you jump into such intimacy with people so quickly. You tell stories and you talk about relationships and you really like dig into things, so by the time you get into the episode, it's remember you said that thing. Like Jacqueline and I have a scene in a bar where I tell her that her ex like needing to be alone isn't the same as wanting to be without her, and like I had shared it on our Chicago day, like learning that lesson for myself, and then it made it in the episode. But it was fun to be able to create this character based on a documentary filmmaker who I adore, and yeah, to lean into this space with one of my girlfriends who I just think is like so talented and also who, by the way, like transcends so many traditional ideas or societal ideas of gender and who was like, you do a little bit of this and I was like, yeah, I do, and I love it. And we were like, cool, how are we going to make these people fun on camera? And yeah, it was just great.
I think, I think Jacqueline is so cool. You do you have you do have that that wonderful thing that I think, Uh, it's it's transcends. Like once again that like American idea of gender. But you you do have that kind of like boss like there's you have a really a big element of control, Like it's just like it's you're really kind, but it's it's like, uh, you just have a boss energy, like you're really rooted. And I think that's like a really cool thing about women who know themselves. It's like we would be told ten years ago that that was masculine, but what they're really talking about is like, no, you're a bitch that knows yourself. That's cool.
Yeah, I feel that, I really do. It took a while to get here, but yeah, I think it's probably why, like I've always been really drawn even when I think about clothing, like why I love to wear suits, Like I do have a strong masculine energy to me, and I think it's why. You know, it's really exciting to be in this like evolutionary moment because I get to lean more and more as I age into exactly who I am, and to always be able to learn and discover about yourself is I don't know, it's just like what a gift. Like what we were talking about earlier, people want to critique aging. I'm like, no, this is the coolest thing I've ever done. Aging is so invigorating and deeply chic, like I'm here for this.
We're so lucky to be able to do this.
Yeah, yeah, we really really are.
Yeah. I would not. I've never had I've never been one of those people that's like, gosh, I was I could only be a college student again. I do not wish that at all. It's so much better here.
Yeah, what I what I realize you know, of like talking about how we can track back through like who we were, who we've always been, And you said it earlier, you said, it's really such a process of becoming, like to return to self, to own self. I feel that process. It's like it's so beautiful and it's so good, like it's a delicious journey. Like it almost takes my breath away. And I think about how now I can look back like at college or post college age and go, oh, the way that my body tells me things perhaps before my brain has the words for them. It's always done that. I just didn't know to trust my body. I didn't know to trust my gut yet. Yeah, I can see it now, and I get excited about what that's going to mean in the future, like how much quicker the feeling to the understanding of the feeling is going to get the synapses are going to fire like faster and faster. Do you have anything in your world right now that feels like that? Is it perhaps this solo project where you go like, oh, I'm leaning all in on this music, on this individual art, or is it like a personal journey or maybe it's both.
There's a bit of both. So I remember the I'm gonna say kind of single handedly. Like one of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten was from my friend Sue Gillan, And she's a director and she's just awesome and a big goal of hers is to teach specifically like young women and young queer people how to advocate for themselves in business. And she told me basically this like people please our hack, where she was like, and you don't have to be rude, but when something doesn't feel right, you can say that's not a fit, that's not a fit for me, Oh I love And so you're not saying no, and you're not saying maybe you are saying something that's undeniable. You're saying that's not a fit for me. It's not a critique of what they're doing, it's it's not a fit for you. That's a fact. And I think as I get older and I'm doing business now, and you know, business is a solo artist that has been so helpful for me. It's like, I want everyone to feel like I'm valuing their time and then I'm valuing their input, and sometimes I have to remember I am the artist, I am the product, and it's not a fit for me. And I definitely do feel that way. You know, when you when you're making a music, there are a million tiny decisions all the time, and you have to practice saying, great idea, I mean, we're going to do this one though, Yes, thank you for bringing that to me. I'm going to think about it. We're not going to do that right now. You're like, you're doing that a hundred times, whether you're in the studio or you're out of you and they're convincing you you don't need a mic for the amp. Like you're just constantly finding ways to be kind while you're firm. And I've never had to do that more than right now. Yeah.
God, that's so. That is such good advice and the way you're explaining that makes all the sense in the world to me. I had this conversation with my best friend yesterday and she was like, you've been in this season where for a long time she's like, you'll try anything, you'll show up for anyone, and you have really gotten good at being like, Nope, that's not for me. I tried this, that's not for me. That's not for me, that that's not a fit for me. This is not something I feel comfortable in terms of clothing. This is not a work environment I want to be in because of energy, you know. And we were talking about how this really does feel like the first season where it's not just out of all these options, these are the no's. Now it's like, Okay, I've gotten good enough at knowing what isn't for me what is, and for you to be able to talk about using music as a vehicle what it feels like to say, I can see all of these options, but I know what the yes is for me.
That Oh, that's such an interesting way to frame it, because I think you're totally right, Like, I really haven't thought about it in that way. We've I think because we get socialized not towards entitlement, right, Like, men get socialized with entitlement, but everybody else not so much. And so men are have all of the space in the world to instead of figuring out how to kindly say no so that they don't get you know, sexually assaulted, assaulted or beaten up or dismissed as being hysteric, whatever, they get to spend their entire lives cultivating their taste. And meanwhile, we're cultivating people pleasing mechanisms, right, yes, And so then when we're when we're talking about like, Okay, well now I have the tool to s that's not a fit for me, and I've said that's not a fit for me enough, so I've said I kind of had to reverse the process where I found all the things that weren't a fit. Yeah, you are so right. Right now, I am in a moment where I am really discovering the things that are a fit. I'm I'm having like this weird renaissance where I'm like, I'm finding I'm finding the clothes that I like, and I'm just spending so much time looking at these clothes and and really treating it like an art project. I'm listening to albums like kind of religiously like breaking apart all the tracks to hear what instruments are doing what and what I like about them. And I'm I'm like having I'm having what I think a lot of just white boys get to have just this period where they're like, you know, we make fun of white guys all the time because they're like, let me, let me man explain this thing to you. I'm in like a fucking man's flind head space. Everything is gorgeous, everything is art. And it's because I finally have the space to fine tooth comb everything that I love instead of spend all my time being like, oh, thank you so much for having me. I am. I am not super comfortable with your hand being there.
It's finally cultivating what is a firm yes, like a whole body.
Yes.
One of my other best friends and I just talked about this and our mantra for this season in our life is less people pleasing, more pleasure. Ooh it feels nice, doesn't it? Like it feels good in your body?
Yes?
Yeah, yeah, it makes me feel really really excited.
About the people. Please myself.
Okay, exactly me. I'm the people. I'm the one.
I'm also a people.
I love it. Obviously, we're excited about the album and it's so good.
Thank you.
What are you the most excited about right now? Is there a next project, a next goal, something you're curious about, or is it this season of like cultivation of self relationship.
I'm really I'm just really lucky right now. I'm really in a season of being excited about a lot of things. But also after like self funding a project, I think I've been kind of intrigued by the idea of what divestment looks like, like in when you're not being paid by a studio, like a lot of us haven't been recently because we've been on strike. You have to rethink the way that you make money. And all of a sudden, I can't explain of it, like I feel taller, Like I don't. I'm I'm having to think about money and a lot different terms now after this strike and during the strike. But I'm not thinking about myself as an employee to the studio, and I'm not thinking about like, you know what, what's the studio thinking about me? Now? I'm like, I'm I'm me, I'm my business. And when the studio goes away, how am I making money and how am I existing? And that's that's kind of a fun that's a kind of a fun headspace to be. It's a little bit scary, but I talk with my partner a lot about like we've been talking a lot about what freedom means, and freedom is this constant practice of It's a constant practice, but it's also a practice of grief. It's really scary where you're looking at all these systems that have made you comfortable before and you're realizing that in order to be truly free, you have to say goodbye to the systems that make you comfortable. Yeah, then you can re enter that system. Like one day I'll work I'll work on a TV show again. One day i will shoot a movie. One day I will go back to the writer's room. Like that, I'm going to do these things again. That I'm going to do it knowing that I can survive outside of them, and that feels like a whole different phase of my life. Yeah.
Well, to not feel beholden it in a way, it takes away their ability to dominate, Yes, because it takes away the scarcity terror mm hmm. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what that looks like too, but you you you know.
I think that it's it's the being you know, in a negotiation for a show where your team you'll be like, this is my firm number, and will be like, we have to be read, we have to be okay with walking away, and they never mean it. You never mean it because they're like, please just do it. Yeah. I think that the big takeaway for me in the last couple of years is you have to be comfortable walking away. You actually have to be comfortable walking away from all of these things, because only e then are you prioritizing your comfort. And the fact of the matter is is that being comfortable walking away it doesn't mean that you're gonna have to say no to everything. It means sometimes that places that would have taken advantage of you are like, Okay, I guess we got to respect their rights.
Yeah, they might have to operate differently.
Exactly if you're ready to walk away, they treat you with more respect.
They really do. I quit a job years ago and I had a male friend of mine call me up and go I've never known an actor to quit a job ever, And I was like, well, sometimes you have to do it, and it really did. It changed everything for me moving forward. And I think to your point, sometimes what you say no to is practice for shaping your future. Yes, is mm hmmm mm hmm, And I think that feels really exciting. Do you think when when you think about going back to, you know, traditional Hollywood jobs like going back to do a film or your next show or right on a next show, are there are there things that from your personal experience as the human that you are, you would want to see done differently, particularly for like the queer and trans and non binary community within the industry.
Yeah, you know, I've got to give this massive credit to Grace. I think Grace did a really good job. The press for the show was that I was the first non binary doctor or you know, a person on a network series. But in reality, when you watch the show, I was really just existing, and I was existing in a really rich way. I had an awesome job, and I had an awesome partner, and I really, you know, I really want to see more queer people. And I'm not saying never talk about it. I hate that that's such a big distinction. I'm just saying I don't want every storyline that queer people have to be one of abuse and trauma. I want more of us to just be existing on TV and I want you to see our love lives and I want you to see all this. I want you to see every aspect of us, and sure trauma can be a part of it, but I don't want it to be our center. Yeah, and that's what I want when I go back, is like I I often audition for male roles because I'm like, well, I'm a human being and it sounds like this you're what you're saying is this this female character is in love with someone. It actually doesn't have to be a guy. Like, that's not what you're talking about. And I think that that's a that's going to be a big shift that happens, like post to strike is I'm going to keep doing these things and I'm going to start getting casted in roles that they thought they needed a dud for and you don't. I'm a human being and we don't even have to talk about it. I'm justin.
I love that, and I think you're right. I think any marginalized group deserves to be represented joyfully existing. Yes, you know, I worked on a on a TV series of the wonderful actress Sky Marshall. You know, beautiful, powerful, brilliant black woman. One of the most embodied friends of my life. She has inspired me in so many ways, and we talk a lot about this for her community. She's like, I want to see black joy. It can't just be about the trauma of my community. And it really made me reflect a lot, even on a lot of the rules I get put up for as a SIS woman. I'm like, I don't want it to be like the woman who came back from her sexual assault. Like enough, Can I just be like a smart woman running a business. That'd be cool and I don't have.
To worry about you getting raped. I would really love that. I would really love.
Yeah, I would really really love that.
What's your dream role?
Oh?
They can be a type or an actual, you know, historical figure, but what is it?
Honestly, and it's it's very funny. I wound up having what a weird thing our lives are? I wound up. I did James Cordon with Aaron Sorkin to promote my last show premiering, and I just think Aaron Sorkin's one of the smartest writers in the world. And I loved the West Wing with my entire being and the number of people in my life that are like, you should do the West Wing and you should be the president, like bring that show back, and I'm like, yeah, I would love to do that, Like that would be a dream role for me.
That would be to your point to go.
And flip the expectation of who serves that role on its head, and and yeah, to talk about the sort of human people affected by policy. I would I would love as a policy nerd. I would really get off on that.
That's cool. It's huh, that's a good idea.
So you know, maybe maybe that.
But then also like.
I mean, hello, sir. Also, you know, Dead to Me is one of my favorite shows I've ever seen in my life. I thought, you know that Linda Cardelini and Christina Applegate were so brilliant on that show, and I loved watching this show.
I know that you're Italian because of how easy both of those names just were like about it.
Yeah, they just roll right out. Like That's also the kind of show I would love to go and do. And then my favorite thing to watch is Lisa Ling doing Our America And I'm like, should I just go host a documentary series like I don't know the possibilities in this moment feel endless, but I.
Feel you're vast.
We're vast people, Henny.
Mm hmm, yeah, cool. I can see in all of those not I'm president.
Sure, you know, let's go. Okay, tell the people what's coming next, where to find the EP, and what else do you want them to know?
This EP is going to come out on ten twenty, that's October twenty. It. The EP is called Violence. I think it's really fun. It's five songs, it's corny as hell. You can get it anywhere music is streamed and if you're in LA. I got to show at gold Diggers on eleven eleven one, November first to celebrate the EP. Drap I'm coming. You have to be there.
You have RSVP me Now, I'm ready.
You're on the list.
Okay, I can't wait. I'm ready, And I have a final question for you. I literally want to talk to you all day, but then I realize we'll just have dinner. But my final question for this podcast for you is what in your life at current feels like your work in progress?
Oh, the thing in my life right now that feels like my work in progress is really really being kind about my mental health and and I you know, I've talked about this a little bit before, but I'm had such a fear of maybe being like too depressive a person, or you know, being too moody or blah blah blah. And now I'm really just trying to be kind to myself like I would to a lover or a friend and saying, emotions are passing through me. And I use a lot of my emotions for my creativity, and actually, emotions are the most beautiful thing about the human experience. And so my work in progress is accepting my brain for exactly what it is and being really grateful for it.
I love that. Thank you.
Yeah.
Being willing to witness yourself the way you witness the people you love is that's a big, big shift.
You made. That so nice. I'm put that on a shirt you made That's so crispy. God damn, we.
Make sure it's I'm ready. I love it. I love some. I love some specific to like a friend group.
Merch. Oh, we should have merch.
Yeah, we should have merch.
Bush Master bush Master. Yah.
Honestly, it's the gayest thing I've ever heard of. Let's go National coming out Day. Everyone else from the bush Masters from us, thank you for coming.
This is so fun. Thank you for having me.
