Hi everyone at Sophia and welcome back to work in progress with me today is former NBA player, eleven time All Star, two time Finals winner, Olympic gold medalist, and current NBA Global Ambassador Chris Bosh. Chris played for the Toronto Raptors from two thousand three to two thousand ten and then the Miami Heat from two thousand ten to two thousand seventeen. While performing at the highest levels of his athletic career, Chris was suddenly diagnosed with the blood clot in his lungs during the All Star break and missed the rest of the season after another blood clot. His extraordinary career came to a premature close, not at a time of his choosing, but as he said in a doctor's office in the middle of the afternoon today, Chris and I talked about his road to mental recovery after this devastating news, and how mental toughness isn't something you just have are not. It's something that you build up like any other muscle. I was incredibly inspired to hear him talk about how mental toughness and empathy have to exist side by side in order for a person to feel fulfilled, and also to be generous in spirit. We also dive into talking about Chris's new book that came out on June one, which is so fantastic. It's called Letters to a Young Athlete. It looks back over his amazing career in the n B A and today. Chris shares what it was like to enter the NBA at just nineteen and what it felt like to make a very personal decision to join the Miami Heat and leave his beloved Toronto Raptors behind. I was incredibly moved to hear how even as he made a decision that was ultimately right for him and was pursuing his career goals, he felt the weight of expectations of so many fans and strangers on his shoulders. Chris offered excellent tips for how you can balance your person and all needs with the expectations of others, which he certainly gets into. In his phenomenal book as well, he talks about lessons he learned about how to succeed in life, especially when my fans you a curveball. Chris Bosh is such an intelligent, compassionate, empathetic and inspiring person. I just cannot wait to share this thoughtful conversation with you all. Enjoy it's so nice to see you. Good to see you as well. Where are you today, Austin. We're in Austin, Austin, Austin, Texas. Yeah, this is is Yeah, It's it's cool out here. It's it's always been. It's always been funny. You know. We moved here. I'm originally from Dallas, and we were looking in Dallas, you know, after retirement, and Adrian had the idea, uh, to move to you know, just consider Austin. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, man, Damn, I can't believe I didn't think of Austin. You know, we had so many friends throughout the years and even in my recruiting processing, um, you know for basketball going to college, so many people I mean Austin, Austin, Austin, Austin, Austin, Austin, I mean my whole pretty much, my whole life, my whole career. And then um, when we look down here, we fell in love with it too. And you know we've been here since. I think home is such an interesting thing for people like us, right when your job requires that you go wherever the job is Like if I do a show. I moved to North Carolina. I moved to Chicago, Illinois. I moved, and I think about you. You know, you said you grew up in Dallas, but going to Georgia Tech, you know, going to Toronto to play for the Raptors. By the way, I just filmed in Toronto, so like I have major you know, home away from home love there. Um, you know, being in Miami for the heat being all over. Were you loving every place you were or did you feel nostalgic, especially as a young athlete, did you feel nostalgic for home? Did you ever miss Dallas? Oh yeah, I mean, you know, I eventually grew out of it, But in the beginning, oh yeah, I missed home. I remember my rookie year, I had my bags packed for a whole month, Like I had my bag right there at the door, ready to go home, and uh, I would be on the first thing smoking back to Dallas. But then eventually, and I'm sure it happened for you too, you get to a point where you're comfortable. Home is wherever you are. And um, as I got older, I started enjoying just just being off that that became more of a home, you know, just if the season was over, being able to do the things that I've been wanting to do to rest, go see some sites and stuff like that. And you know, next thing, you know, you start and build in your own home. And I got to a point where I was comfortable anywhere, you know, so, um, you know, as much as I love Dallas, it was time to you know, grow and find out things that I like. And I was always very very adventurous in that regard. You know, even even in going to college, a lot of people ask me like, why did you go all the way to Georgia Tech. Why didn't you go like to U T or A and m or And you know, I said, you know, I thought you were supposed to go far away from college. That was that was like, that's how it was built up in my mind. And um, you know that that kind of gave me a sense of adventure all the time, to go out and check out some things and not be afraid to venture out. And then getting drafted by Toronto that was another culture shock. And so once that happened, I felt just I felt comfortable anywhere. I can't imagine the shock of that first winter in Toronto, because I've lived through those, and they are brutal. Oh I thought, I thought, I thought I had sauce snow. So when the win, when it started getting cold, it's like the cute cold like in October said yeah, yeah, I'm ready. Yeah it was it was cold, it was long, and I had to get used to it. January and that part of the world is a whole other thing. Oh yeah, oh yeah special. I'm so interested in where that curiosity, that adventurous nature you talk about having as a kid comes from, because you know, I get to sit with so many people who have these fascinating stories and they've done these enormous things in their adulthood, but I always want to know who they were as children. I'm like, what was he doing when he was eight? What was he in two? When he was ten? Also, were you always really tall or did you have a growth spurt in middle school? Like when did it all happen? Were you athletic as a child or were you more bookish? And then you found sports because you know, you won the height lottery, Like how did this all play out for you? So it kind of it kind of happened at the same time. I grew up in a household where h and really my whole family, all of my aunts and uncles graduated from college, all of my answer teachers. So that was kind of you know, the environment. And and one um, one of my aunts ended up being you know, can you imagine a black female cop in the eighties in Texas, in Dallas, Texas. So that's the kind of environment that we were raised in. And I was always athletic, you know. I always my dad, um, he played in church leagues. He would take us, we would go watch the local high school, uh play at the games. I would always go to the park with my friends. And so I was always around the game and always playing. And books were always very important, you know. And and we had a of course, you have a no past, no play rule in athletics in in in Texas. My my family was a little not strict, but I had to have a's and bees. We didn't you know. It wasn't like, oh yeah, I gotta see no, that's not that that's not gonna get it. Um. So that was always pretty much in an exercise, Always going to after school activities, always going to the parent teacher meetings with my mom and my dad. My dad might just show up at the school, you know, so you know I couldn't. I couldn't. Yeah, I always had to pretty much be on my p's and queues um at all times. And then and then, you know, the gross spirt eventually happened. I mean, the love was always there. I was obsessed, like obsessed with basketball. I run into so many people now who say, oh, my kid is weird. Sorry, he memorizes all the stats or she knows all the stats, and I tell them, trust me, they're not weird. I was that kid, you know. I was that kid that and you know I had to do through the newspaper. I go over to my grandma's house and get the newspaper and just read the stats baseball and basketball. I was just obsessive with the numbers. So, you know, it's just kind of kept happening. And then then I started growing. I was always tall, but I really really started growing really tall. Yeah, I got it's so cool because I know you always excelled in school academically, you know, and I like to brag on people who come on the show, like you were a member of the National Honor Society, you were in student engineering organizations, you were in the high school robotics club, and you know, you grew up in this family that loved sports, And I think about the picture you're painting of, you know, playing ball with your friends and and watching your dad play in church leagues, and also having all all of this academic prowess in your family, you know, when you're surrounded by teachers and there is um a real emphasis placed on discipline, you know, self discipline, self self betterment, which I think you know, studying is kind of the the highest tier of that too, to learn, you know, as a job. I think about how we didn't value that as kids, and now I'm like, man, when I was in school, literally my only job was to get smarter. It was the only thing I had to think about. If only I had known now that I have a real job, now that I have multiple jobs, isn't that how it always goes? Oh my god, I wonder. You know, it's so cool now as an adult to talk about being into robotics and engineering and math, but as a kid you kind of get I would think stereotypically, more often than not, kids get bullied for that stuff. Did anybody bully you or were you? Did they not want to mess with you because you were also an athlete, Like how added that word? So funny story with that, I'll kind of digress a little bit in the story. In the fifth grade, sixth grade, you know, I've found that that was one of my merging points. You know, my friends on the court weren't always my friends in the classroom, you know, because les, I'll be frank, some of my friends weren't the best behaved individuals, you know, most of my teammates, And so during school I couldn't. I couldn't really. It's like, you know, we could joke around, but I cannot get in trouble with you today because that that cannot happen, you know. So you know, I always I was always that person that would bridge the gap, you know, and and it would kind of be amazed, like Chris, that's your you know, that's your that's your friend. Like, yeah, we spend the night over each other's house like all the time in the summer. But school, we wouldn't talk too much. I would have to be focused. And when I was in the Roboties club and and I was in another club called the whiz Kids, it was like a learning photoshop and illustration and graphic design. I didn't tell my friends, so you know, we wouldn't practice UM basketball. Our team wouldn't practice basketball until five, so we wouldn't have practice. We got out of school a three thirty three forty five and we wouldn't have practice until five o'clock. So naturally that especially UM, with kids and their adolescence, that is a prime time to get in trouble. And the places, the place that where we went to school, UM in Dallas, South Dallas. You know, it was not the best place for a kid to be roaming the streets, That's what I'll say. And UM, you know you can find trouble right across the street. You know, the school ground was sacred, but as soon as you crossed that street, you're in the real world. And you know, I knew I couldn't use that time to just be running around and and and doing stuff. So I found out about the clubs. I got into them, and I wouldn't tell my friends, I wouldn't tell my teammates. So I would just you know, go have a snack, be on the computer about ninety minutes, and then go to practice. And that became like a daily habit. But yeah, I would never they didn't bully me, but I was always you know, I was always a good sport about it. You know, I knew they would They wouldn't bully me, but they would definitely crack some jokes, and um, you know, I just kept those things to myself. It was like our our secret bubble. You know. When we went to that classroom, everybody was there to get better and it was just like a place of ease. So I kept that, you know, for myself. And it was one instance where one of my coaches, Um, he picked me up and saw me at the robotics competition. I tried to tell him to stay outside, but this is before cell phones were like that, right, And he came into the gym to get me and he saw me, said so this is what you've been doing. I'm like, yo, come on, let's go, let's get out of here. And you're not supposed to know this. There's something so confident about owning your interests in that way, especially as a young person, you know. I I remember being a student and being scared to stand out or or be made fun of, and always wondering if you know, if I admit that I like this, will this put a target on my back. You know, what do you mean? Kids are? Kids are so mean? And I I'm very struck by the fact that even in the fifth grade, you said, I don't want to be the butt of jokes for my team, so I won't tell my team about my robotics club. But I'm still going to go to the robotics club because I love it. And I think a lot of kids fear not fitting in so much that they might suppress their interests. A lot with girls, especially, you know, girls who don't want to be stand out smarties in class because they're afraid that the boys are going to be mean to them. Girls. You know, I remember reading, Oh my God, reading in Hillary Clinton's biography, you know, her talking about how all the girls in her school didn't want to be smarter than their boyfriends, so they would fail their tests on purpose. And I was like, what. But I guess I just wonder, where does that sort of self confidence come from in a in a fifth grade boy, How did you feel the courage to do that and also to do so really with with such a quiet strength? Did that come from your dad, your mom? Was that just all your own? You know? I would I would like to pat myself on the back for that one and and and only because and this is the reason. I grew up in a I went to school in Dallas, but I grew up in a in a small town called Hutchins, Texas. If you're driving south on forty five leaving Dallas, it's the first town you hit. It's the first place you start seeing you know, rest stops or gas stations, and you know dairy queen and you know the fast food favorites. They weren't there back then when I was there, by the way, but it was a very um you go from city to like very spread out country type feel right away. And when we were growing up. I mean, now they've thrown up neighborhoods out there and its apartments. There is more people there, but back then it was just wooded area, uh fields, and you know, small neighborhood. And so for us, we you know, it wasn't secluded, but we were secluded a little bit. And I didn't have friends. It was just me and my brother, you know, and we had to like walk a little bit to go see our friend, or we had to ride our bike, and pretty much it was our house and then to to the front of us was was to the right run down house and more houses, and then to the left a hundred yard field where we would play all the time, and then my grandmother's house. So that was like our street. And we eventually got to the point where we had to entertain ourselves, you know, we had to find hobbies. You know, if we had a tape recorder we would make a show, or once we got computers and had the internet going. We always had computers in the house. That was like the main, main, main thing that we did if we had some free time and couldn't play video games. And once we got the internet, you know, the dial up to the old school DSL, we just are. It's sparked. I know me, It's sparked my curiosity, and I know how I felt and and at the end of the day, I didn't have those same experiences as my friends because they stayed in neighborhoods, they had their socialists continued after school. So I could see why someone wouldn't want you to know something about them that you could make fun of them for because it would last all day and you could go home. I eventually had to go home, and I had to fill with my time with things that I like doing, and I just knew how they made me feel. I liked it, and I saw early on that it connected um a lot of people, and I was able to you know, make friends and just really do something that I really enjoyed doing. I just enjoyed doing it, you know, I couldn't see myself doing anything else and that that those were the things that always gave me confidence that Now as a dad, do you look at your own kids and and think about wanting to instill that sense of you know, ownership over their passion as as as a leader, you know who speaks to so many other young people, is there advice that you give having done that for yourself, you know, really really stuck to your own interests. Yeah, I encourage them. We encourage them, Adrian and I. We encourage them to follow those passions. If they like something, try it. You know, if you're curious about something, try it will get you to it will get you the whatever you need to feel that you know you're expressing yourself. Please, we will make it happen. And we encourage those things. So I know one of the things that helped me in my development with basketball was my dad not pushing me. You know, I began to push myself. There were some instances where he had to push me. But you can see how the helicopter parents at the at the little league games, that's like a it's a it's a thing. My parents never really did that, and so that only I identified with basketball, and I went for it, you know. So I encouraged my children to think about those things that they really really love and be open to trying things. My daughter, she loves painting and cooking and art. My son, he's like a he's turning into a gadget man. He's uh. He loves putting things together, taking things apart. But he loves music as well, and now he starts in the sketch. Or my twin boys, one loves music and art like his sister, and the youngest baby he likes the electronics and the gaming like his big brother. So I always always want to spark their curiosity, but most importantly, get their hands dirty, put their hands on the electronics, go outside and get these experiences that you know, we really feel that will help them. And then I know eventually they'll they'll they'll make those choices for themselves but we always want to encourage them to do something. And you know, that's that's kind of been It's really been working. It's been great have that idea of encouraging but not pushing. Like the visual it gives me, you know, a hand at your back for support but not going to shove you. Right. They need it, you know, sometimes they need it because when you tell them all right, I pad time is you know, no iPads yet, or I had time is over, we can not do this, it's like you gotta give him that a little nug you know, we're going to paint today. And it's like yes, But then they end up loving it, that's the funny thing. And they ended up they end up making I mean, we have a house full of art and end up making these amazing paintings and and doing these amazing things. And I just want to keep that, keep that going, keep that, keep that curiosity going. We felt like you had that, you know, support to pursue basketball from your dad. Were there athletes at the time that you just idolized, Like who were the people you looked up to as a as a student athlete? Um so Michael Jordan's of course, Uh, Kobe Bryant of course. Um. But the guy who I emulated mostly was Kevin Garnett. Yeah, he he was the pretty much. I grew up in a in an old school mentality um atmosphere. And if you watch the game now, everybody handles the ball and dribbles the ball and shoots threes. Back then, that was frowned upon. If you were a big if you were tall, do not drible, don't put the ball before you. That was even if we were successful. It's like, no, I just told you not to do that. And right around the time that I got more a lot more serious about basketball, and I start hearing um phrases like that from my coaches. I saw Kevin Garnett, and the only way you could see UM NBA highlights back then was inside stuff on Saturday morning, And so I will wake up on Saturday morning, I will watch it. In one particular day, I saw this tall, skinny dude who is just amazing, and I said, oh, okay, they can't tell me not they can't tell me what I can't do anymore. I just saw somebody at the highest level who looks like me. You know, you get made fun of for being thin. Oh you're f real. Oh you're this and you know you're still successful. It's crazy. But when I saw when I saw that young kid drafted out of high school running up and down the floor, blocking shots, being successful in the league early, I said, yeah, okay, I remember myself going to the park right away and practicing what I had just saw and imagining myself in that same position. So he he was that prototype that I needed to see to give my self confidence to say, okay, I can I can be like that. You know. I love that that moment that a kid sees himself in someone powerful. I remember where I was. I was right there in Yeah, it's the same way. You know. It's the same way with Michael Jordan. I was telling telling my wife the other day. She's like, that's a great story. Um everything. This is when basketball started clicking for me. It was nine and ninety two. I was seven and eight years old, and every summer my dad would drive us up to Dayton, Ohio and drop us off for the summer at my grandma's house. Now, we drove from he drove from Dallas to Dayton, Ohio with two kids in the car, single cap truck, and it's a stiction. So we would drive eighteen hours. Oh man, we would drive eighteen hours and both times, if not all three times in these years because they were always in the finals. When we got to our grandma's house, it was always night and the Bulls were always playing every single time. And so I would get there and the game would be on and I'd be like, wow, you know the first time in ninety look Magic John's I remember my dad talking about Magic. I remember that much. Okay, okay, alright cool. Then the next year the same team is playing, So I said, wow, what what is this? Who is this guy? I know when I played on the COT, but what is this? And I mean I'm watching everyone have these reactions and going crazy and and then and then that summer the Dream Team formed. Wow. So I mean I couldn't even tell. It's like I saw that and everything else went away except the glow of the TV. And I was just fixated on the TV. I couldn't even tell you when my dad left. Yeah, I was just remember and I mean, hello, like we've we've hung out in person. Obviously now we're on zoom because pandemic world. But I am not a tall person, which you know, because I imagine when you have to talk to people like me, you're like, my neck really hurts down, and I really do feel for you. But I had no I never played basketball, you know, I like, I played soccer. And I remember that year in as nine, and that was the summer that I for the first time went to the sleepaway camp that I would go to until I was eighteen. I would become a junior counselor and do the whole thing. And my high school sweetheart is my best friend from camp since I was nine years old. He's the sweetest person on the planet. And like, talk about a great first love story, right, And my high school sweetheart when we were nine, was obsessed with the Bulls, So I became obsessed with the Bulls. And I remember as a little you know, a y s O soccer player, watching Michael Jordan's and I mean, you know, we all thought he could fly, Like this man was in the air for so long. He was doing things I'd never seen a human being do, and the athleticism was arresting as a little kid to me. And I think about all the years, you know, growing up watching him, and then weirdly, I'm having this realization as we're talking and you're talking about how impactful he was for you, because when I've moved to North Carolina to do One Tree Hill, the gym we used for the fictional Tree Hill High School was the Michael Jordan Gym in Wilmington, so we played on his court and I was like, this feels like hallowed ground energy and people are like when people walk in that gym, they get quiet. Even now, there's such a respect. And then because I loved him so much, I remember I think I was like met the rose ball or something. I found this really cool old vintage Bulls jacket when I was in my twenties, which I obviously bought, and then I got a job in Chicago and I was like, go into the home of the Bulls. What's happening. So I don't know what it is about that man, but even as a person who never played your sport, he was so impactful to me. And that I think there's something about icons like that, when they have put a stamp on everyone's life, even if even if the people that they've sort of offered that stamp to have nothing to do with their profession. And I don't know, I think about what those of you in your in your world who have made it to that highest level I have been able to do with it. You know, not just the game at that level and the travel and you know, the success, but the way that you can become like a universal hero. Yeah. Absolutely, because sports requires no language. It's its own language, and everybody speaks it. Every fan speaks it, no matter where they're from, or you understand it. What you you understand, what you look when you're seeing it. Yeah. Yeah, you know. With that said, I always um, it's like two things with that that that that is um, you know, being able to communicate on the court without language. That I really felt that. But at the same time, Mike would do the whole st game interview and it would be you could understand what he was saying. I grew up in a household where my we couldn't use any slang. We couldn't talk too loose like my friends. You know, we couldn't. I couldn't use the language in school. I could not bring that home. Me and my brother could if my parents weren't listening. But you know, if they heard us, they be like, hey, you speak English. And I got made fun of for that for um speaking clear English. You know, they would, uh, they would make fun of me, say you're talking white, so what does that even mean? You know? But when you when I saw my heroes, you could understand them, you could speak. And then I started noticing how my teachers would compliment me on being able to talk. You know, I would get the compliments of saying, oh wow, hey, good grades, athlete with good grades. What in the world. It was like an anomaly, and I just I felt that right away. And I still you know, I read books, you know, I always read books throughout my career here. So watching the look in people's eyes when he said, oh, yeah, I read that book, you know, it's kind of um. It was always an interesting reaction. But I always wanted to be clear. I wanted to be concise, and I noticed, I noticed the difference, to be frank, in the treatment. You know, the teachers were a lot nicer. If you have your grades in and your own time, things are a little bit easier. When I make sure I have my work done, It's becoming a thing. Then when I became a teenager and and the higher I climbed, um and the state rankings or national rankings and whatnot. It would be something that would be mentioned if I had good grades. So I was really I found that very fascinating and it made me want to do more, inspired to do more because I like the compliments. To be frank with you, I really liked hearing you know, those good things about me before we even get on the court, And um, I just wanted to continue to try to keep pursuing that and just do as best as I can. And like I said, you know how my household is, uh, my aunt. I mean she's an English teacher. She's a retired English teacher. I think she's still working. She's seventy years old and still teaching. And now I have a book and she's like, hey, I know, she's probably we're definitely gonna have a discussion about that one day, but she's you know, they were all of my family. They were always so proud and you can see them beaming. If if we had good grades the court, that would be a whole other thing. You know, you root for the team. But more importantly, they they wanted to teach me responsibility. They wanted to teach me all of these things. My head couldn't couldn't get too big because if I played well on Friday night, no matter what, I guarantee you, Saturday morning, I will be in the yard mowing, I will be in the I will be in the kitchen cleaning the kitchen and mopping it. You know, it was our job to keep the house clean. So that responsibility and just noticing how people really really took to seeing um an athlete so to speak, uh excel in the classroom. I just you know, it became addictive. I wanted to had that, you know, as a as an actor. My parents were like that business is impossible, and we believe in you, and if you make it, that's great. But what do you have that's yours? Because they essentially posited the question to me, Okay, if you have to win a job, you know, just like for you, you have to get drafted, and and there are so many people who are incredible. Not everybody gets a seat at the table. So my parents were like, say you're great, but you don't get that job. Say you're great, but you don't get that show. Say they're looking for you know, redhead, not you. Whatever it is, we don't know what do you have that's yours that someone else doesn't have to give you. What do you not have to go out and audition and for? And the only thing I could ever say that would always be mine would be the intellect I pursued, the intelligence I learned. You know your your brain is and I say this young girls, especially all the time. Your brain is the most valuable part of your body. And it is the one thing nobody can take away from you. And if you cultivate that, if you lean into your learning, it gives you the tools to be great at everything else because of the self discipline, because of the curiosity. So I have a chapter on that cultivating. Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I was like, it's exactly what I was in here. And I always get excited when I'm like seeing the nerds were doing good. We're doing good. I'm telling you this is coming, you know. And and it's interesting the first story that I thought of, and you saying that, My parents they never at least if they were skeptical. I know for sure they probably at one point in time said this boy think he's going to be Oh my goodness. You know. My father, Um and I talked about this in the book as well. I remember he would talk about it all the time, at least every other weekend. But we'd be riding in a truck and he would just bring it up and just say, hey, you need to think about what college you're going to because I can't pay for college. I'm like eleven, twelve years old, you know, and he's telling me, like, yeah, I don't have the money. I'm telling you that right now, think about what college. And we have these old Encyclopedia Britannica from the seventies, and so I would go to the back of the book and like read the universities they had universities, and I thought it was so fascinating that there would be a Texas Arlington A, Texas San Antonio University of Texas, Texas A. And m I was like, wow, this is so fascinating, and he got me thinking about that. But basketball was my only way, you know, where we come from, where I come from, the only way to get out of the impoverished neighborhood, the only way to get somewhere with resources was through sports for me. And I was lucky to have something like that that would be able to to give me access to an education and a better life and all that stuff, but like that was my thing. And so when once he told me that, you know, I went all in for it. You know, it was nothing else really to talk about. It was like I already love it. And obviously he just told me that this is my only way to access to a higher education. And and then I started becoming more aware and seeing and being obsessed with the story of those who get the scholarship. The scholarship. It became a I mean you underline that word, a scholarship. That was just an amazing, amazing word. And so you know, I became just like obsessed. I was obsessed with the teams. I would watch college basketball. I'd be up just I mean every in the wee hours of the morning watching the West Coast games, up early watching the East Coast Saturday morning games. You know, it was just, you know, it became one of those things to where I knew what my ticket was and so I put everything into it. Was it bitter sweet then to go because you know, you you played a season of ball at Georgia Tech, but then you were drafted in OH three and what an incredible thing obviously to be drafted into the NBA. But then you had to leave college. I imagine that was hard for you was you know a lot of people it was so funny because college was a struggle. I mean, obviously I dealt with homesickness. I dealt with getting my butt handed to me in practice and in the games, because it's another level. A CEC is the best basketball in the country in my opinion, at that level, and dealing with school. I was struggling in class because I had never had class like that. I found out that the high school that I went to, we didn't have all the tools to prepare us all the way, so I had to kind of scramble and figure things out. That was tough. And then just getting used to a different world. You know, I'd be sore, sore from getting my butt whooped all day and then go to class and then I'd be trying to do my English homework and math tutoring, and I just found myself behind the eight ball. But I eventually got there, and I eventually began to get comfortable. As soon as I got comfortable, it became warm and it was time to go. And I'll be honest with you, A lot of people don't believe me when I say it. I wasn't trying to be a one and done player. I was just playing the game. I wasn't really thinking much about it. I just enjoyed doing well. I just wanted to have points and remounds and help my team win and block shots, you know, and and and that's all I focused on. And then, you know, one day somebody said, hey, yeah, um, you know, people find you and they let you know you're gonna be the fifth or fourth or fifth pick. I wasn't ready to hear that. You know, I was enjoying time with my friends. I was nineteen. The weather is clearing up, the basketball season is finally over. We have a little bit more free time than we did before, and I'm just having so much fun. The spring parties are starting, We're hanging out, and it was time to go. And I wasn't ready to hear that. And you know, I just I knew once I heard how high it was, I knew I had to leave because I knew what that meant, Like I got I can't pass that opportunity up, as I have to go, And I wasn't necessarily ready to do that at the time, but I wanted to be with my friends. I wanted to hang out in the dorms. I wanted to go to the parties and go across the street to the Crappie Burger spot and hang out. That it had come to an end, um but I just had to continue to evolve and continue to transform. And this was it was the plan all the time, all along. It was the plan, you know. So I had to walk through that door, even if I felt I wasn't ready intimidating, you know. I mean, you said, you're nineteen years old and suddenly you get called up and you're going to go play for the Raptors and you have to pick up and move your life and leave school. I mean, what was that experience like for you? It's very blurry, and you know I always um, even even myself, I reflected on that and said, how crazy is that? I was eighteen? Okay, great, win a state championship. Think about this, two thousand to eighteen. Win a state championship. Wonderful. I'm going to prim in May. Wonderful. I'm going to college right that next May. One year later, I'm in the draft. One month later, I'm getting drafted. Less than one and a half years, I'm in in the gym and Vince Carter is in front of me and it's like, okay, we're a te and we've got to practice. It was just like that was the intimidating part, going to another country and seeing the difference between you know, United States and Canada and getting used to that. But then being in the part where it's a business now and and and where I am, I am like really in here, I see raptors. It's NBA logo. I mean I used to we used to kill ourselves and try to find I mean, I was like NBA socks that was currency when I was growing up. I never got my hands on a pair. But now they're giving me packs of socks and I gotta put them on, and I've got to go to work. And this guy is the biggest, strongest guy I've ever seen in my life, and and they're telling me to go guard him. You know. So that was the challenging, intimidating parts that I had to get used to. And just you just get thrown in the frying pran you and you have to learn how to play. And then on top of that, I started like I was I was playing, I was getting menaced the coach threw me in and said, Okay, you're our best You're you're our best guy at this position, so you're playing. And so then I got into playing Big minutes right away at nineteen years old. So I was just constantly thrown in uncomfortable situations after high school pretty much for the next three or four years, was just always just trying to catch my feet and figure things out. Is there anyone giving you any kind of advice or support, because look, I just sat with two of my girlfriends that I came up on one treeo with and we were just like, you know, talking to it and telling stories, and we were like, we didn't know what we were doing at all. One for like two weeks, we had no idea what we were doing. We didn't know what was insane, we didn't know what was normal. It was kind of like it was like getting sucked out to see and people were like, have fun swimming, and You're like, maybe I'm drowning. What's happening? And we realized, you know, there was a lot of beauty, but there was a lot that was really complicated, and there was there was a lot of the energy of kind of feeling thrown to the wolves and you know, we talked now about how we wish we'd had mentors, and we try to talk to, you know, young women in our industry whenever we get the chance. And and so it's funny that I had that conversation last week and here you're telling me about this, and I'm like, I know everyone in your life is going, isn't this amazing? Congratulations? And on the inside, you're like, I don't know what's happening to me? The pressure. Was there anybody in your organization who was there to help you, to mentor you to give you advice? Did that exist at the time? Does that even exist in the NBA? Now? It does? It does, And I was lucky to have great VET trend leadership. And I do feel that that's one of the things that is missing in today's leaking. That's no knock on the guys. Now, I know that they have guys that do that, but back then, it was you had that guy that was a little, well not a little a lot older, like in the twilight of his career, and that would be his job to make sure that the team is good. So in my case, when I was drafted, um, we had a guy by the name of Michael Curry. I believe he's still head coach at Florida Atlantic University. And he took me in under his arm right away, and we would practice before practice, we would get shots up. We would study, and then we practice, we would get shot I would be in the gym. He had me in the gym an hour before we even had to be there on a game that you know, we have shoot around, which is like a light practice in the morning, we'll be there. We'll be there at nine ten o'clock before the practice. And if we were in a city, he would take me, hey, come on, let's go, let's go eat, and he would always be in my ear telling me things. Then I had another veteran by the name of Derek Martin, and he would always throw dinners for the team. If we were on the road, all right, guys, Hey, let's go dinner tonight. We're going here, all right hey, he'd take all the young guys, let's get some shots up, let's go through our routines. I was lucky to have those veteran presences that pushed me and challenged me, and I wanted to be great, and they would give me pretty much the blueprint from their experience, and you know, I would emulate those things and do what they asked me to. And if we were in a game and I was dogging it, they would tell me. I was lucky to have that system of accountability pretty much throughout my career, and then I was kind of able to digest it for my own and and and take those things and use them, so I did. I was lucky enough to have that support system. And I even think about one of my trainers. I'm a foodie, big time foodie. I'll try any sort of food. Once wonderful I had. I had a trainer by the name of Ray Child. He took me out to eat. We would go eat um lunch all the time after after practice, and I got exposed to Greek food, and Chinese food, and Italian food, and curries and Indian food. You know that real authentic um. You've been a Toronto you know how it is. And I remember distinctly I was eating one day and he ordered something. He ordered razor clams and black bean sauce, and I said, man, I'm not eating that. That's nasty. He got mad at me. He said, how do you know, don't you ever say that did you try? What are you talking about? And I was like, okay, take it easy. I ate it and guess what, it was great, loved it. When are we coming back? So ever since that, you know, that opened my experience to trying new foods and that was like an exciting thing to be on the road and oh wow, what's this restaurant or if it's if we're in a vacation or you know, especially now you know Adrian and I we that's our thing, that's our jam. If we're we're something, you know, we want to we want to meet chef and we want to try. So that was like, that was one of those things I felt that really had a huge impression on me early on. So those are the main guys, of course, amongst others that that really inspired me, really pushed me and and held me accountable. Um more important so that I be able to really incorporate teamwork. I would really be able to to to put the work in and not lie to myself and say that I am You know, they gave me those checks and balances and they knew they would tell me what I'm doing right and doing wrong and we would discuss it. Having mentors and having people to lean on. I think, can you know, really be the difference between like a make or break experience. Yeah. Absolutely, And one of the things that I was I was kind of I had to, you know, get over I think sometimes we, I think all the time, we can think that that perfect leader is going to walk through the door, or the person, know, the President of the United States, Barack Obama is gonna come in here and he's gonna mentor me, and we're gonna that's gonna be my mentor. That's not always the case sometimes, right, you can take pieces from people that are around you, you know, you can. You can rely on on those that you respect, whose values you think are aligned with yours, and you can take pieces from that. I think sometimes we will be looking over everybody, you know, I'm tall, be looking over everybody else, and what you need is right there in front of you. So I just you know, encourage people to kind of always keep their eye open for those things and have those conversations with those right around you. I think that's such valuable advice and hearing that you had that you know, this this great kind of supporting net when you got to Toronto. I wonder was it was it hard to leave? Then? What was it like to go from Toronto and you know, wind up playing for the Heat. I thought it was going to be easier. I thought the decision I was making was going to be a lot easier. But it wasn't. You know. I had built a life in Toronto, had been there for seven years. I had friends there, and although I felt in my heart and I knew it was time to pursue other things, I wanted to win an NBA championship. That was gold number one. So that pretty much dictated every decision that I made. And then it came to a head during the free agency process and uh in two thousand and ten. And what made it especially tough was just the love that Toronto had for me. I mean, it became a topic of conversation, like you're not leaving, right, Chris. I'm like, I don't even know what I'm having for breakfast, you know, And it just became so heavy. And and then as it developed, man, all my friends, you know, they want to know what's going on. They it became like kind of a field. Vince Carter had just left about six years five or six years before, so it was this tension, you know. And and I eventually, um made the decision and follow my dreams and and go to Miami. And I knew that I would be letting a city down, and and that's not that's not always an easy thing to do. I didn't think it would be easy. But I didn't knew the I didn't know the feelings that would come from me. I mean, the last game they had signs and we see before we want more. I'm like, oh, my goodness, I don't even know what I'm doing. What am I gonna do? You know? And um, you know, when I made my decision, it was of course a breash of breath of fresh air. It was time for a change. My life was changing in more ways than one. I had met a woman of my dreams, and and I was, you know, looking towards pursuing that, and I wanted that good fresh start, you know, and we, uh, we were looking forward to that. And pretty much I asked some some of my older constituents, you know, guys in the Hall of Fame, what is it about? What what is the most important thing? Looking back on it, and they would say, playing on that stage, man, you want to play on the stage. You want to go for it, that's what you want to do. You want to go for glory, and you know that that stuck in my head and um, I mean, and you know their their answers were quick. Remember talking to Bill Walton, he said, yeah, you want to play with the big stage. I was like, this was you play in the seventies and eighties and he said this is quickly. So I knew in my heart what I wanted to pursue, and so I went for it, and luckily things ended up working out. But it was again being thrown in another frying pan, and now we're in more of a in the bright lights world. Toronto was great. I joke around that was Toronto years were like my mixtape years. Those are the special ones. Were just scrappy and trying to put things together. And then when I got to Miami, it's like, oh yeah, number one Billboard album right right, And if it's not, then you're you're not reaching your potential. And so you know, it was a different pressure, different attention. We were under the microscope and I had to get used to that. Yeah, I mean, it's funny you said that like mixtape and then what came to mind, is I was like envisioning you on whatever the version is of being on stage at the Grammys, Like it's so big and and you know you going to Miami, like you went up with d Wade and Lebron and like you you guys, I mean talk about being like modern gladiator. It's like, what a pretty much crazy time? I imagine it was so exciting. Um, you know this this whole like big three thing. Did you feel kind of like a kid again because you were entering into a new arena or did you feel like this was just your next step as a man and you were ready, Like what what's the what's the internal moment of walking out on that big stage. It's a mix of both. I don't know if you ever have you seen the how we came together and we had a whole big it was like a concert with no music. Have you seen that? So pretty much? Um, once we agreed to all sign the heat through this event and we came on the stage and we had rises and pyrotechniques and I always watched remember seeing a cut of this on Yeah, but like I didn't watch the whole ceremony, but I saw this because this was up on like the highlight reel showing like and then this happened in my and I was like, that looks crazy. Yeah, it was crazy on fire. Yeah, so that was the kid part. Then we had to turn into a growing up pretty quick because you look around after the dust settles and realized like, oh yeah, everybody didn't like that. They didn't care for that too much. I mean in Miami, great, everywhere else, you know. And and we were just in the moment, you know, everybody thought we organized it. Shut up. I showed up and they said, yeah, you'll be right here, and you're coming out the stage, and I said, okay, yeah, I know this. I know how to do this. I watched wrestling my whole life. Let me how you guys doing over here, you know, let me hear you. And so, you know, that was the excitement. But then, yeah, we had to grow up very fast. And technically we still didn't have a team. It was just us three and I think two other guys that were under contracts. So the team were under the gun to actually get more guys to build a team. It hadn't even been built yet, and you know, a lot of people took that as arrogance, but you know, we were just you know, pretty much showing up and and after that, we we saw that we were going to have to deal with the consequences and you know, um, we had to come together. Yeah, that's something I think is so interesting because his entertainers. A lot of people think we all are in much more control, and they don't understand that it's a lot of like show up and stand where you're told hit your mark, other things, smile at the people. And I think as you go through your career, you get to a point where you can say no, earlier years you don't have that luxury. And I imagine that that really interesting, you know, sort of intersection where you all met of basically throwing a Grammy party without an album yet and being like, well, I didn't pick this, but nobody knows I didn't pick this because I just came here and and all I can think about because I've had versions of this and oh my god, the internet is horrible. It's like this all happened and in an era with so much social media access. So yeah, that was pretty much like the beginning. That's when I knew like, okay, we're in a different world. Is a new decade. So I imagine, because you've talked about this too, that you know you made this personal decision for you and it was exactly what you needed, and I don't know, I'm so glad you did it. You've spoken about how there was a time where you were really villainized to so many NBA fans, and I just wonder, like, in that era, in that new social media space, did you just have to take a break. Did you have to cut out? Was that a lot of noise to you after having just made this big decision. Absolutely that I pretty much almost cut it out completely. I mean I would, um, I would use social media every now and then, but not like I did in Toronto. I would ask questions and be very very involved. And then once that happened, I remember, I remember I was, I was home and I was reading through comments and just like goodness, gracious, And then I kept doing it though I found myself wanting to read it and every day reading it, and then I wanted something. One day just clicked like, wait a minute, I'm having a bad I think about how crazy this is. I'm having a bad day, and my day just got ruined off of words I read from a stranger with no name on a screen, you know. Uh thunder Buddy six told me I sucked, and I'm you know, and I'm believing it, and I'm really I'm like really having these reactions. And then just one day it clicked, I said, man, why am I doing this to myself? And I stopped reading comments, you know, and that that aided me tremendously. I'm really curious how you found your way there, because I know for me, I've had that. I have found myself in really low places, feeling just battered because all these people online have an opinion, and it's always the ones with a nasty opinion you want to share it. You know, people who have nice opinions of you are just like double tapping like like that, and they're they're on their way. So you, in a way you have to think about the fact that it's not a normal sampling of opinion. But something that was so interesting to me. I said to a friend at a dinner and she's a trained psychologist. There was a group of us sitting around just you know, talking about life, and I was explaining this and I was like, I don't know why, I know how it's going to make me feel But I look at it, I think maybe I feel obligated because I am fortunate, because I did make it into this business, because I do have a platform. I feel like I owe this. And she said that's not what it is. She said, you have to read it because each of us has a story. We would never tell it out loud, but each of us has a story of the reason that we're worthless or the reason that we are not. And she said, what you're doing by reading those comments obsessively is you're proving your worst story. You're looking for evidence to prove your worst story, and just so you could say I knew it right. And I was like, oh my god, you're really great. Whatever your clients pay you, it's worth it. But I thought about that because we all wonder do I deserve this? Why did I get here and someone else didn't? Am I good enough? Am I working hard enough? Am I? Am I? Am? I? Am I? And when there's all these people who don't know you that tell you the worst thing about yourself, you're like, well, if it's that obvious to them, it must in some way be true, right, must be true. It's a long time to realize, oh, I'm just an easy target for someone to project their pain for sure, for sure. And and that's then, and that's what I had to come to. I had to come to that. You know, I can't get mad over words on the screen. It might be a twelve year old who just learned how to curse and put it together, and now they have in a out and I'm having a reaction off of that. And I started having more empathy, you know for the negative comments, like, man, how how man I really feel for that person that feels that they have to say something. You know, if you want to support your team, if you want to say, ah boom, heat all day every day is sports. But you know, just the just how nasty it can get. It got nasty very very fast. Yeah. And you know one of the things that you know, speaking to what um you were saying, having that survivor's guilt or am I good enough? I always tried to kind of look at it at it from a point of saying, man, I deserve this. There's nothing wrong with that. I've put the work in. You know, I have worked and toiled, and I was in the gym, and I was in the classroom, I was there, I put the work in. I deserve what's happening right now, and I deserve to have the opportunity to go after what I want to go after, to go after my dreams, to go after my goals. I love that it took me until this year to start saying that out loud, to be like, you know what, no, I deserve this. I deserve this, damn it. You know. But it's funny and and I think I would imagine that that may becomes a little easier in sports because there is such a there is like a gladiator energy to what you do at the level you do it. And I think, you know, for me, and again it's all hitting me. This is so kissed me and weird. I have the chills over and over again while we're talking, because I just saw my girlfriends from my first job last week and we talked about this and I looked at them and I was like, we deserve this. And god, my friend Hillary just was like she fell out laughing, and I was like, you know, we grew up in an era where all of us women were told over and over again, you're just lucky we let you in the rooms. Was that kind of energy and now We're like, we're done with that, We're done with that. We're making sure all the younger girls coming in behind us were holding the door open for them. This is ridiculous. Everybody we're claiming are our work and are worth and it's it's exciting and so it like, it gives me the chills again to hear you say that, because I think you do deserve it. You deserve and that's what you know, what I think we're we're in a moment. I think this decade, we're in the decade of the woman, you know, and I always say that as men, we're going to have to have that the tools to be able to handle that because we're talking about you know, we're just now really understanding in America how disproportionate things have been if you're a minority, and my there's a lot of minorities, and so I feel that kind of piggybacking on which you have said you're holding open the door. We haven't even seeing what is will be created. You know, there needs to be more women entrepreneurs. There needs to be more girls in coding. That's one of the things we try to promote. There needs to be more Yeah, absolutely, and and you know, it's just it's all this brilliance. It's worlds we we don't even know, you know, because the scales have been tipped so hard. So think about that. Think about if the world was actually fifty fifty equal pay. How crazy would that be? Will be? I don't even know what that would look like. It will eventually get there, but you know, I think um as as we get into this new era where people are everyone is sharing information, and you have role models like yourself that little girls and boys of course can look up to and say, hey, that's what I want to do. I want to do that, and and nothing's gonna stop me. And they start putting that work in and they start cultivating the mind and all that that good stuff. We're going to be in a world that will be totally different and and I think it will be better for that, and it'll be really, really great. But that's we tried to be an advocate, especially for young girls, not only young men, but young girls for sure. And and that's crazy. Earlier than the conversation, you said that Hillary and Hillary Clinton's book Girls would fail their tests on Like that's crazy, Like how much brilliance was missed out on and and while we're on Hillary like um, we were able to uh um host her uh in her presidential run at her home, which was a very great moment for our family having her in our home and and being able to just have a fundraiser that was so cool. And just to see I identified with how much crap she was getting for trying to be successful, you know what in the world. I mean, it was like, okay, guys, I think we all saw firsthand, and I mean she took it and kept moving like I mean, and she's tough as nails, you know, And so you know, she's set the example in the bar for so many women to have that confidence to say, yo, I can be president, Yes, and I can go for it. And that shouldn't be a debilitating thought. And people shouldn't look at you like you're crazy if you say that and you want to aspire to do that. Ambition is not a dirty word for anyone. And I think you know you you've referenced this, and and what strikes me whenever I get to spend time with you is that you you just have the most generous spirit. And you're talking about a few moments ago needing to build up more empathy, but you're also talking about the kind of mental toughness that is so important and even for men to usher in more equity for women, it requires empathy and and some toughness and some courage to change old systems. And I think about the fact you embody both of those things, that that empathy, that willingness to feel and be vulnerable and be curious, and to be tough and measured and to demand of yourself at you know, the highest levels. And and you talk about so much of this in your book, and I'm really curious, how did you have to meet that kind of toughness, that that work ethic in yourself and and hold empathy for yourself with what you went through because you know one of the world's greatest athletes and suddenly you get diagnosed with a blood cloud in your lungs and and this is a debilitating medical condition. Is that so jarring when your body is so much of your business and then your body, I don't want to say betrays you, but does something you were not expecting or maybe it was maybe it felt like a betrayal. Do you definitely feel like a betrayal? Will I will say that I did feel like my body betrayed me. You know, eventually you get over it, you know, things happen. And one of the things after I was out the game, it's nothing I can say that I can can't say I was prepared. You're just dealing with the day to day information that's coming. And eventually one of the pieces of that information in the day to day was like, you can't play anymore. So my livelihood. I felt like my livelihood was taken away from me. I mean, that's all I had ever done. Sure I had and have many other interests, but best in the world. That's what I was trying to be every day and that's all I did, you know, That's all I consume myself with, and that's what it takes. And um, you know, I just got to the point where I found myself reflecting on my life on the game, on every single play, on every single game, and I eventually came to the point where I was appreciative. You know, I was so glad that I had the right attitude every day and even on the tough days, I still love the game. You know, because one day I walked in the gym and that was my last game. I did not know it, but we played it and it was just a regular night in the NBA, I thought I and I eventually came to the point where I feel that that's perfection, you know, because when you're trying to be perfect, it just you know. I watched my teammate Dwayne Wade. He had a thing called the Last Dance, and I mean, boy a long, the last lap around the league amazing and I didn't get to have that. I thought I would have that, but not only am I, you know, done playing at thirty thirty two years old. You're not going to get that send off. It's just over. And I had to get over that. And I just found myself reflecting looking back at that little kid and being like eventually getting to the point of saying, wow, how special is that? Look with I didn't get all the time that I thought that I was gonna have, But man, look at the time that I had and what I've worked with and what I was able to accomplish, the friends, the lives that we touched hopefully and you know, championships and all these great, great great things. Setting in an example being a role model. You know, I wouldn't trade that for anything. So you know what they said, well, doesn't kill you, makes you tougher. That was kind of one of those situations. But I found myself being, you know, okay, well I need to I need to be more of a father, you know, Not that I wasn't. It's just like you're you're gone quite a bit. And we had just had our twin boys, and you know, we got little babies, and we've got five five now, and I'm home every day and I'm in the carpool lane, and I'm taking my son to to his kindergarten class and or his first grade class, and every day he wants me to read to him before class starts, you know. And these were the things that I found myself falling into. And every morning I was just you know, I would drop him off and come back home and I just start writing and just trying to find something, you know, writing and reflecting. Is that where the book came from? Kind of pretty much? Yeah, that's that's uh, that's where it started. I did not know. I couldn't tell you that I said, oh, I'm going to write a book. I had always been told I had a knack for writing, even when I was in school. It's just I didn't like doing it, but I could do it and I could pass my test. My English teacher would just be, hey, you know, you could really you know, But I never I never really liked it all the way. And then I found myself and but I always did it throughout my whole life. And then I found myself focusing every morning. Um this this book called The Artist Way. You should check it out. And oh my god, this is crazy, this is creepy. Yeah, I was about to say, it sounds like you were doing morning pages, morning pages, morning pages. So I was doing morning pages and I just saw what I was writing down as I was writing it, and the first thing happened. I was like, Okay, I don't like what I'm writing. I don't like what I'm thinking about because okay, it's week three and I'm talking to I'm in this loop. So then I just found other things to empty my brain one and I found myself reflecting on those conversations that I had with my coach back in the day, or my high school workout guy him telling me, or that hot meal on a Friday night and one of my coaches would take me. We would go and eat some food, and we go watch basketball and just drive around town. I felt like a grown up. Those were the things I found myself reflecting on and all those people that helped me get to the point that I had eventually got to. And I imagine that that's where some of that healing for not having the you know, final career moment you thought you'd have. In investigating all of these memories and all of these moments that shaped too you get to go, oh my god, look at all the moments I had and I'm still having amazing and I have an opportunity to hopefully one day pay homage to that and help someone else out. Yeah, I'm I'm really curious about something because everything you've talked about today has been weird. I've had the chills like times. So I feel like I need to ask this question. Because when you first sent me the book and I read the title and it's called Letters to a Young Athlete, I had this zinger of a moment because one of the books that shaped me most as an artist in my twenties was Raindo Maria Rookies Letters to a Young Poet. I knew it, like I feel like I feel like he's just dropping a little bit of like, you know, Pixie Doest on this, so it is that that's a reference. Absolutely got some real que quotes in there, you know, it was, yeah, it was you know, I hadn't you know, I gotta be you know, Honestly, when when we found out that Letters to a Young Athlete hadn't been used before, we said, Okay, oh my god, we gotta move now. This is so perfect. And I referenced those Letters to Young Poet, Letters to a young jazz musician, Letters of Seneca. Those were definitely, definitely huge influences. But mostly what I got from those was the calculated approach to the mindset, not so much the action, not so much you should do this, it's just having that mindset and that focus to function, to be able to go after something or do something. And you know, I read that those and so many other books that I felt translated to my game and my approach to the game. You know that I really really really wanted to to write something that I wanted to read. So this is the book that I would want to read. I read before games and after games. That was my thing, and so throughout my career I was able to read hundreds, if not thousands of books, and so this is the book that I felt I was trying to fill in gaps. We were trying to fill in the gaps that I felt like, Yo, this is this thing right here, this is what I would read to get myself ready and focused and and and hype to accomplish what I need to accomplish. It's so cool. I mean everything in the book, you know from from how the most important lessons in life aren't just about basketball, and you know you reference some of those with your family and finding a new rhythm. I love that. You know, the book talks about great leaders that are also naturally quiet people. I was like, because it is going to be important for so many people. You know. You you write about how to spot the difference between ego and confidence and how it pushed you to pursue your dreams. I mean, there's there's so much in this book that is so I appreciate that. Thank you very much. And you know that was always a thing. I mean, that was the conversation that I and I referenced that in the book. It was my coach, my coach, coach Bishop, he was our he was my high school coach, varsity coach. And you know, he told me he was the one that opened my eyes to that and say, hey, you don't have to be the guy with the bullhorn, you know, yelling and yelling at everybody that that not is not necessarily what a leader is. You can be a leader by being one time, by your effort, by having the right attitude those three things. If you you can control those, you know, and if you if you take it on yourself to control those things, that'll be great. Because your teammates are watching. Those around you are watching even if you don't say a word. So if you're dressed and ready on time for practice, not putting your sneakers on, when your boss comes in and say all right, everybody, get ready, All right, come on in, let's let's get ready for today. And then you see people taking out their notebook. No, no no, no, my notebook is ready. I got my pin right there, I've got everything I need and we're let's go. You know, so I took that mentality throughout my career and I felt it helped me. I didn't want to be coming in the gym when the coach says okay, he blows the whistle, and we have our huddle. I'm not tying my shoes, I'm not running, you know, putting on my jersey frantically pacing to get there. I'm dressed, I'm ready, I'm ready to go, and let's go. And I never you know, I really really took that to heart and it really really helped me. So those were definitely, um, some great lessons that I learned that really really aided me in my career. So you've done all this reflecting. It feels like it's been a beautiful experience. And your book just came out, which I'm so so excited about. And and what now? What do you feel is the key to balance, you know, in your life and in your family and in your career. Now, man, that's a or a question, what is the key to balance? I have been so fortunate enough to find something in writing, and it was a three year process. It was from saying, hey, we should write a book, to the book coming out three years. Okay, I want people to understand that. But now it's really just about you know, you know, setting a good example, letting people know, uh that they can go for those dreams. And it's okay, And I have other things that I'm into as well. And I'm an aspiring music producer, an aspiring writer, and you know, it's about going after that next thing. And you know, I've been open to just not having just the thing right away. I've been this This process has taught me to just sometimes just start and you'll be surprised the avenues that will just open up and the people that you'll meet. If you just say, man, I'm gonna just start playing the guitar today and I'm gonna learn and I'm not gonna stop until I learned it, you'd be surprised the people that you meet, the experiences that you'll have, the whole other part of your brain, and the whole other part of the world you know, that will open up. And in that, I think the balance for me is, you know, of course, spending time with my children, having those moments to stay totally present. That's a challenge that you know I have every day because I'm used to staying so focused on my thing, you know. I the balance is where if we're you know, this past Saturday, if we're we'll just go to brunch, take all the kids and everybody get in the car. We're gonna put on the playlist, and we're just gonna ride, and we're gonna go to brunch, and then after we're gonna go to the park, and then we're just gonna hang out and and have a good time. And you know, those those have been the parts to the balance that that really bring me joy. And that on top of hopefully, you know, this book will be the start of conversations, the start of a whole generation of young athletes, old athletes, CEOs, leaders, coaches, followers, everybody to um you know, aspire to to help each other out and get better. And that's where I think I can really really affect not only basketball, but hopefully affect some positive bring some positivity in society as well. That's like, that's like the goal now. And you know, I don't have it all figured out. Some days where I'm just sitting in my computer and just say what am I doing? You know, those that's a part of it, but just um, you know, staying focus on being positive, staying focused on having the right attitude, and staying focused on just every day putting that nickel in the bank of growing my brain, growing my kid's brain, helping a positivity in the world. That's uh that's what it's about now that what kind of music are you making? We make all kind of music we make uh r and B. I mean make anything country which you want, some hip hop. You know that learning to produce music is something that feels so intimidating to me. But I'm not surprised at all that you're like, I'm inspired by this. I'll just go learn how to do it. And of course course would do that that. Yeah, it's getting to that point. It's something that's that's one of the things as well, you know, languages and music and just you know, just the arts. I love doing that stuff and you know we're do it with my kids too, But you know, just being open to the challenge of saying, man, can I can? I Yeah, of course I can. You know you know that if you stay with it, it's going to happen. So, yeah, I'm learning languages. I'm painting, I'm drawing, I'm writing, I'm making music. We're doing all kinds of stuff over here. So I want to be you and I grow up. I also want to learn how to manage time in the way that you do. So, my friend, my favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show, And my last question for you is what do you feel like in your life? Given the title of our podcast, what do you feel like? It's still a work in progress. I think me myself as a as a person. One of the things that um, I found myself reflecting on it still to this day, is like we have a phrase. They can take away the what, but can't take away the why. What I mean by that is thinking about what type of person you are? Sure you know, I can go out there and score fifty points at night and have everybody wanting to talk to me. But if I'm a butt and nobody wants to talk to me, I'm just a jerk and I didn't inspire anyone. What is it really about? The reason, you know why I did things was to inspire, was to express myself, was to be a good person, you know, And I think, um, you know, it's always a work in progress. Every day I think about my actions every single day. I think about the moves that I'm making and always considering does this align with what I'm doing? And that that's like the daily thing. So yeah, I am a work in progress. You know. Every day I'm always trying to sharpen myself, my mental spiritual side, my children, the type of father I am, the type of friend I am. You know, those are the things that I'm really really working on daily, you know. And it takes that daily work. And you know, I think, um, if I continue that progress and keep getting better, and keep getting better, and keep being a better person, keep challenging myself and those around me, uh to be a better person, Holy hold hold people accountable and have them hold me accountable as well. I think that is the main working progress that would just move mountains and and and just inspire and and be amazing. So that's what I'm excited about. That's exciting. Indeed, Thank you so much. Thank you