Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello whip smarties, Welcome back for part two of our interview with Cassidy Hutchinson. We are talking about her memoir Enough, which reaches far beyond the typical insider political account. It is the saga of a woman whose determination helped her overcome childhood challenges to get her dream job, only to face a crisis of conscience and a crisis of the nation. She found her voice, she found herself, and today she finds herself here talking to me. I am going to dive into part two of this interview and ask all the rest of the questions that I know you and I are both dying to have answered. It's really wild to think about what you guys were seeing, you know, and we've seen some of the footage from inside of those tents, and we've you know, we've heard the recordings of what the former president said, and and to your point, the the courting of these violent folks, you know, and groups like the Proud Boys and the Hosekeepers, I mean, domestic terrorist organizations, you know, and we're seeing people be sentenced for their roles. And then I think about, you know, the testimony. We've heard from, you know, everyone from Nancy Pelosi talking about asking for the National Guard and not getting support for hours to you know, I on Oppress, these panic buttons having been ripped out of her office, the folks on the far right who were giving tours of of what's meant to be a secure facility to protect you know, members of Congress. It's it's a lot. It's heavy to really think about. And you know, it was interesting to me to read about how you and really so many people talked about in the midst of all that danger, how upset Trump was when people would say no, when people would say to him, we don't have the security for this. The Secret Service has said this is not safe. You know? Was it an out of body experience to see a person who holds the office of the president essentially having like a temper tantrum that they couldn't increase the violence in a riot, like just as a human, let alone a staffer. Where you just like, what is happening right now watching that stuff go down?

Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello whip smarties, Welcome back for part two of our interview with Cassidy Hutchinson. We are talking about her memoir Enough, which reaches far beyond the typical insider political account. It is the saga of a woman whose determination helped her overcome childhood challenges to get her dream job, only to face a crisis of conscience and a crisis of the nation. She found her voice, she found herself, and today she finds herself here talking to me. I am going to dive into part two of this interview and ask all the rest of the questions that I know you and I are both dying to have answered. It's really wild to think about what you guys were seeing, you know, and we've seen some of the footage from inside of those tents, and we've you know, we've heard the recordings of what the former president said, and and to your point, the the courting of these violent folks, you know, and groups like the Proud Boys and the Hosekeepers, I mean, domestic terrorist organizations, you know, and we're seeing people be sentenced for their roles. And then I think about, you know, the testimony. We've heard from, you know, everyone from Nancy Pelosi talking about asking for the National Guard and not getting support for hours to you know, I on Oppress, these panic buttons having been ripped out of her office, the folks on the far right who were giving tours of of what's meant to be a secure facility to protect you know, members of Congress. It's it's a lot. It's heavy to really think about. And you know, it was interesting to me to read about how you and really so many people talked about in the midst of all that danger, how upset Trump was when people would say no, when people would say to him, we don't have the security for this. The Secret Service has said this is not safe. You know? Was it an out of body experience to see a person who holds the office of the president essentially having like a temper tantrum that they couldn't increase the violence in a riot, like just as a human, let alone a staffer. Where you just like, what is happening right now watching that stuff go down?

Where I think about that day, and I've thought about that day every single day since January six. There has not been a day and I sometimes I say I hope. I also hope I don't ever go a day without thinking about it, because again, I especially in this phase of my life, and you know, going through the process of post administration, like I was complicit in all of this, and I think that one of the most egregious results of this day is just the sheer lack of accountability with it. So I, yeah, I preface that because I when I think about this day, which is often, I almost see it from this bird's eye view, like I feel like I at points like I'm watching myself move throughout the day, which is sort of crazy, and asked I to think about but like I, it wasn't out of body experience, especially like from the Magnetometer scene to when he gets off the stage and still wants to go to the Capitol, and when we're back at the White House and the riders have gotten in to the Capitol and he's the president, still didn't want to do anything, and he didn't want to do anything for hours, and I all I kept thinking about that day was, you know, I I love the legislative brand. I've been there, like I have. I had friends that were members of Congress on both sides of the Aisle. I knew that we were responsible for unleashing the mob, and I also was very confident in those moments that those rioters were there for one purpose and one purpose only. It wasn't to do with what the President has written off as a peaceful tour of the Capitol. And at the time I even felt very confident that if they even saw Nancy Pelosi, or if they saw a member of Congress that they recognized. You know, I don't want to doomsday catash refize things too too much, but they they wouldn't have been friendly, like they were there to terrorize the people in the institution, right. Yeah, at the behest of Donald Trump, when I got news that there were shots fired at the Capitol, that was the first moment, not first moment, but the first sort of mental breaking point for me that day of not necessarily I don't think I thought the word coop, but I was thinking, like, dear, this is how it starts. And I don't I remember thinking that. I don't remember defining it in my mind at the time, but it was just this everything that I had heard in the last few weeks, from martial art to the Insurrection Act to him wanting to go to the Capitol and somebody is shot. I don't know who is shot. I'm thinking it's a member of Congress, or a member of the press, thinking it's a writer that had shot someone, uh, or I'm just thinking like, okay, this is beyond bad at this point, like somebody needs to do something. He needs to do something. He's the only one that can stop this. And it still took hours. And you know that is it's a stain on Donald Trump. But it's I mean that is here dereliction of duty. He is he did a lot of things that were unqualifying and make him unfit, that make him unfit to be president again. But the fact that he was gleefully sitting in the dining room fighting with his senior staffer is about not wanting to put out a tweeter or a video to stop it, to stop what was happening at the Capitol. You know that's that is unforgivable.

Where I think about that day, and I've thought about that day every single day since January six. There has not been a day and I sometimes I say I hope. I also hope I don't ever go a day without thinking about it, because again, I especially in this phase of my life, and you know, going through the process of post administration, like I was complicit in all of this, and I think that one of the most egregious results of this day is just the sheer lack of accountability with it. So I, yeah, I preface that because I when I think about this day, which is often, I almost see it from this bird's eye view, like I feel like I at points like I'm watching myself move throughout the day, which is sort of crazy, and asked I to think about but like I, it wasn't out of body experience, especially like from the Magnetometer scene to when he gets off the stage and still wants to go to the Capitol, and when we're back at the White House and the riders have gotten in to the Capitol and he's the president, still didn't want to do anything, and he didn't want to do anything for hours, and I all I kept thinking about that day was, you know, I I love the legislative brand. I've been there, like I have. I had friends that were members of Congress on both sides of the Aisle. I knew that we were responsible for unleashing the mob, and I also was very confident in those moments that those rioters were there for one purpose and one purpose only. It wasn't to do with what the President has written off as a peaceful tour of the Capitol. And at the time I even felt very confident that if they even saw Nancy Pelosi, or if they saw a member of Congress that they recognized. You know, I don't want to doomsday catash refize things too too much, but they they wouldn't have been friendly, like they were there to terrorize the people in the institution, right. Yeah, at the behest of Donald Trump, when I got news that there were shots fired at the Capitol, that was the first moment, not first moment, but the first sort of mental breaking point for me that day of not necessarily I don't think I thought the word coop, but I was thinking, like, dear, this is how it starts. And I don't I remember thinking that. I don't remember defining it in my mind at the time, but it was just this everything that I had heard in the last few weeks, from martial art to the Insurrection Act to him wanting to go to the Capitol and somebody is shot. I don't know who is shot. I'm thinking it's a member of Congress, or a member of the press, thinking it's a writer that had shot someone, uh, or I'm just thinking like, okay, this is beyond bad at this point, like somebody needs to do something. He needs to do something. He's the only one that can stop this. And it still took hours. And you know that is it's a stain on Donald Trump. But it's I mean that is here dereliction of duty. He is he did a lot of things that were unqualifying and make him unfit, that make him unfit to be president again. But the fact that he was gleefully sitting in the dining room fighting with his senior staffer is about not wanting to put out a tweeter or a video to stop it, to stop what was happening at the Capitol. You know that's that is unforgivable.

Yeah, absolutely, And to your point, it is it supersedes the notion of party. You know, this is about America, This is about our democracy, this is about our sacred institutions. And I think it's very hard for I would imagine folks like you and me as well, people who love the promise of what these institutions are meant to be, to see how much they've been desecrated and now how in a way so many people just don't take them seriously anymore. You know, you've said it since the elect even where the right has gone to kind of try to push into this sort of intensity and reclaim power for this person, it's it's tough, and you know that's a that's an issue of national crises, right, That's a big macro conversation. And then I think again, just about you, as a young woman in the in the micro, in your individual experience on that day, Not only were you watching this happen, not only were you having to grapple with what you were complicit in and what was happening because of Trump and Meadows and all these people you were surrounded by, but you also experienced a singular, engendered attack on yourself. You know, you experienced this moment of harassment with Rudy Giuliani groping you, and the audacity of this man to you know, say that your claims are ridiculous when we know how many women have done this too, and we haven't seen him do it on video.

Yeah, absolutely, And to your point, it is it supersedes the notion of party. You know, this is about America, This is about our democracy, this is about our sacred institutions. And I think it's very hard for I would imagine folks like you and me as well, people who love the promise of what these institutions are meant to be, to see how much they've been desecrated and now how in a way so many people just don't take them seriously anymore. You know, you've said it since the elect even where the right has gone to kind of try to push into this sort of intensity and reclaim power for this person, it's it's tough, and you know that's a that's an issue of national crises, right, That's a big macro conversation. And then I think again, just about you, as a young woman in the in the micro, in your individual experience on that day, Not only were you watching this happen, not only were you having to grapple with what you were complicit in and what was happening because of Trump and Meadows and all these people you were surrounded by, but you also experienced a singular, engendered attack on yourself. You know, you experienced this moment of harassment with Rudy Giuliani groping you, and the audacity of this man to you know, say that your claims are ridiculous when we know how many women have done this too, and we haven't seen him do it on video.

It was the least surprising reaction that he probably could have put out.

It was the least surprising reaction that he probably could have put out.

But also, yeah, it's like not surprising, but it's gross.

But also, yeah, it's like not surprising, but it's gross.

Sadly, no, sadly, it's not. I don't I shouldn't been so across that. It's not surprising that he said that, But it's also I didn't expect him to say anything else, which is but that's who the mister Trump surrounds himself with and the gender to tack on that front. I was also largely one of the only females around that day, and again I'm not there are a lot of people trying to stop things that were happening, but I was a very young woman in that role, and I did feel this weight of responsibility to do something. And I look back on that now it's like that is just I mean, it's I feel sad for myself sometimes, but I'm also like, I don't deserve to feel sad for myself. But I felt this just this weight of responsibility and that it was my job and my job only to stop this from happening. And it was difficult then and at points it's been difficult to grapple with afterwards too. Just because I now see more of my role in this too.

Sadly, no, sadly, it's not. I don't I shouldn't been so across that. It's not surprising that he said that, But it's also I didn't expect him to say anything else, which is but that's who the mister Trump surrounds himself with and the gender to tack on that front. I was also largely one of the only females around that day, and again I'm not there are a lot of people trying to stop things that were happening, but I was a very young woman in that role, and I did feel this weight of responsibility to do something. And I look back on that now it's like that is just I mean, it's I feel sad for myself sometimes, but I'm also like, I don't deserve to feel sad for myself. But I felt this just this weight of responsibility and that it was my job and my job only to stop this from happening. And it was difficult then and at points it's been difficult to grapple with afterwards too. Just because I now see more of my role in this too.

Right, So, where in the chaos does this incident with Rudy Giuliani happen? Like, you know, you've talked about being there, you know, being at the ellipse, watching what's happening in the tent and realizing everything's getting bad you all have to go back to the White House. Like, where in this crisis of a day does this do you think this man went? You know, what would be a great idea for me to sexually harass a staffer? Right now? Like, how does that even happen?

Right, So, where in the chaos does this incident with Rudy Giuliani happen? Like, you know, you've talked about being there, you know, being at the ellipse, watching what's happening in the tent and realizing everything's getting bad you all have to go back to the White House. Like, where in this crisis of a day does this do you think this man went? You know, what would be a great idea for me to sexually harass a staffer? Right now? Like, how does that even happen?

So I'll set the scene and I just want touch on well, I'll touch on the one thing. I I'm very careful with how it's fined. And I am only careful of that because I you know, I there are women who have gone through terrible, terrible things. Never want to minimize their experience. You know, I didn't view it at that point as sexual harassment, unfortunately, but I also still sort of don't now, Like I didn't walk away from that moment thinking I feel physically violated. I feel that he completely disencroag on my territory. It was more that I just had this mindset like, what the F is happening? What the F did he just think he was doing to me? Where the F is Mark? Like? So it was just again, I was just in this robotic mode. This is as I say, this was shame, but it also wasn't surprising coming from Ridy. At that point, Rudy was known as somebody who has no respect for women, who often showed up to the White House. He has denied this I wanted to put on the record, but widely known me smelled like alcohol, did not have the best behaviors or mannerisms, and was spreading dangerous conspiracy theories and continues to to this day. But no, it's We're at the rally tent and Mark had asked me to go find Rudy Giuliani. The President wanted to speak with him before he went on stage, so I sent a campaign stafford to go find him, and I meet up with Rudy and the ten at some point and we're sort of in the back of the tent. He's with John Eastman, who's another architect of this insane fake elector's scheme plot to overthrow the government and essentially shred the constitution and Rudy comes up to me. He has all these documents, quote unquote documents that he thinks we're going to grove that we lost the election. And he gives me a hug and then slips his hand up my skirt a few inches and starts to compliment my outfit. And I was just I just like ripped away from him. And that's when I was like, where the f is? Mark? This band should never be around White House the president, and he should not be here today. And I don't know why Mark wants to speak with him right now.

So I'll set the scene and I just want touch on well, I'll touch on the one thing. I I'm very careful with how it's fined. And I am only careful of that because I you know, I there are women who have gone through terrible, terrible things. Never want to minimize their experience. You know, I didn't view it at that point as sexual harassment, unfortunately, but I also still sort of don't now, Like I didn't walk away from that moment thinking I feel physically violated. I feel that he completely disencroag on my territory. It was more that I just had this mindset like, what the F is happening? What the F did he just think he was doing to me? Where the F is Mark? Like? So it was just again, I was just in this robotic mode. This is as I say, this was shame, but it also wasn't surprising coming from Ridy. At that point, Rudy was known as somebody who has no respect for women, who often showed up to the White House. He has denied this I wanted to put on the record, but widely known me smelled like alcohol, did not have the best behaviors or mannerisms, and was spreading dangerous conspiracy theories and continues to to this day. But no, it's We're at the rally tent and Mark had asked me to go find Rudy Giuliani. The President wanted to speak with him before he went on stage, so I sent a campaign stafford to go find him, and I meet up with Rudy and the ten at some point and we're sort of in the back of the tent. He's with John Eastman, who's another architect of this insane fake elector's scheme plot to overthrow the government and essentially shred the constitution and Rudy comes up to me. He has all these documents, quote unquote documents that he thinks we're going to grove that we lost the election. And he gives me a hug and then slips his hand up my skirt a few inches and starts to compliment my outfit. And I was just I just like ripped away from him. And that's when I was like, where the f is? Mark? This band should never be around White House the president, and he should not be here today. And I don't know why Mark wants to speak with him right now.

I mean, what do you feel in that moment? Are you scared? Are you offended? Do you not have time because everything around you is on fire?

I mean, what do you feel in that moment? Are you scared? Are you offended? Do you not have time because everything around you is on fire?

I'm not. I didn't really have time to again think about it. I diggest it too much. And you know, I included that anecdote in the book one because it speaks to the craziness of that day. You know, it's not the most important thing that happened that day by any means. It's disgusting and it was wrong, and he it was a clear violation of my physical boundaries. It never should have happened. But it also speaks and sheds light on the mentality of the people whose behavior is so often excused, the people who are still put up on this Republican pedestal in some ways and in other ways, are still working to spread these conspiracy theories, theories and spread these lines, and also had this platform and this control over the Republican Party. And that is who Donald Trump is. And I I didn't see it then, but I very clearly see that now, and I think about a second Trump term in office. Unfortunately, because you know, there's no world where he should be the nominee on the Republican ticket next year. But unfortunately, right now polling numbers look like he will be. And it's going to be people like Rudy Giuliani or John Eastman or the cease, characters that have no respect for our institutions, have no respect for our rule of law or government that will be in the White House, not only disrespecting and defaming women and reversing course on the progress we've made as females in society and the progress that we need to make politically as females in a political environment, but also just creating this mentality where stuff like this is it's to them, okay, And you know that that's why I decided to include that big part in the book.

I'm not. I didn't really have time to again think about it. I diggest it too much. And you know, I included that anecdote in the book one because it speaks to the craziness of that day. You know, it's not the most important thing that happened that day by any means. It's disgusting and it was wrong, and he it was a clear violation of my physical boundaries. It never should have happened. But it also speaks and sheds light on the mentality of the people whose behavior is so often excused, the people who are still put up on this Republican pedestal in some ways and in other ways, are still working to spread these conspiracy theories, theories and spread these lines, and also had this platform and this control over the Republican Party. And that is who Donald Trump is. And I I didn't see it then, but I very clearly see that now, and I think about a second Trump term in office. Unfortunately, because you know, there's no world where he should be the nominee on the Republican ticket next year. But unfortunately, right now polling numbers look like he will be. And it's going to be people like Rudy Giuliani or John Eastman or the cease, characters that have no respect for our institutions, have no respect for our rule of law or government that will be in the White House, not only disrespecting and defaming women and reversing course on the progress we've made as females in society and the progress that we need to make politically as females in a political environment, but also just creating this mentality where stuff like this is it's to them, okay, And you know that that's why I decided to include that big part in the book.

And now for our sponsors. So when you think about again, it's like to me, it just reads is chaos at every level, and to your point, a lack of respect, you know, for institutions and for people. As we get to the other side of January sixth, you know, when he tells the rioters and the domestic terror organizations that he loves them in his video statement that was finally released, what is the fallout? Because you know, you write in the book about how you answered questions at first, but there were sections of you know, your experience or bits of information that you did not go into full detail on it first, whether that's an experience of you know, trauma or that is at the behest of the people.

And now for our sponsors. So when you think about again, it's like to me, it just reads is chaos at every level, and to your point, a lack of respect, you know, for institutions and for people. As we get to the other side of January sixth, you know, when he tells the rioters and the domestic terror organizations that he loves them in his video statement that was finally released, what is the fallout? Because you know, you write in the book about how you answered questions at first, but there were sections of you know, your experience or bits of information that you did not go into full detail on it first, whether that's an experience of you know, trauma or that is at the behest of the people.

You work for.

You work for.

When when in the aftermath did it shift for you? When did you decide you had to tell the whole truth, regardless of who it incriminated. When did you even first get approached about this? You know, what's what's that kind of aftermath timeline look like in your life?

When when in the aftermath did it shift for you? When did you decide you had to tell the whole truth, regardless of who it incriminated. When did you even first get approached about this? You know, what's what's that kind of aftermath timeline look like in your life?

Yeah? I and in writing the book too, I very deliberately wrote it so the reader could experience sort of how my mind was operating at the time. But ever is a good point that I there are some things that I don't directly address, and I don't ever want to speak to something that when I haven't fully made sense of myself and be irresponsible the way that I'm messaging about things, just because these are such dangerous times and I, you know, I recognize the platform that I have and I have seen firsthand how it's you know, and I want to always be responsible at that plot and I hope that I am, and I think that I have been responsed a little so far in this portion of my life. But I but that said, I just want to preface that because I on January sixth, in January seventh, specifically, I was very clear with my colleagues, including Mark, that it wasn't Antifa that stormed the Capitol that day, and the administration, the former president, and we the administration staffers, were solely responsible for what happened that day, a day never would have happened if the President hadn't summoned people to Washington, d C. Someoned a mobbed Washington, d C. And unleashed these dangerous people on the Capitol. And it also didn't have to get to that point. He could have put out a statement. He didn't have to include violent rhetoric in his speech that morning. It got to that point because he created that situation. And you know, I remember on the seventh I had this. It was I didn't even want to go to work that day. I was in really just this deep disassociation mode at that point, where I was there's still a job to do. We have to we have to land the plane. And I'm not by any means saying it was the right decision. I'm not by any means excusing the fact that I say, but I did say, and that's just a fact. On January twentieth, after Joe Biden was inaugurate to I left the White House. I remember passing the Capital right after he was Inaugury's It was like, right around noon, I just felt this sense of relief and I was like, it's you know, it's finally over. And then I crashed and I felt that wall of burnout. And I went to see a member of Congress that is a Republican that didn't serve on the January sixth Committee during that portion. In the few days after the election, and he had asked me, you know, he's starting to press me, like what was happening inside the West Wing that day. I was sort of in that state of denial. But then I felt myself crack a little bit because I hadn't broken what I call like the code of conduct to remain loyal and stay silent. And I just remember I kept saying to my O, it was bad. It was really bad. I none of it makes sense to me. None of this makes sense, and so it's it's still is a while. Like I knew that I wanted at that point to distance myself from chump World, but it's very difficult to when you're in that environment, especially with the access that I had, and I wasn't working Actually that's I was working for him. So I was supposed to move to Florida with him. That didn't end up. I didn't end up moving to Florida, but he kept me on his payroll for three months. We can beg the question of why. I have my theories of it. So then the committee's formed. I had started to make sense of the January sixth and the atrocities surrounding that day, but there wasn't a sense of accountability nobody was saying or doing anything about it, and there wasn't It didn't seem like there was this push for something to happen, and things weren't moving along on the hill until the summer of twenty twenty one the Committee's formed, and then eventually I'm subpoena, and I knew from the moment that I was subpoena that I didn't want work with a Trump World attorney because I had been very close to the administration and people who had worked with Trump World attorneys, and I knew, either spoken or unspoken, that there was an expectation that if you accepted legal help, you're committing to staying loyal to Donald Trump. And I knew from the onset that I wanted to be forthcoming and truthful to the committee. And I didn't think that anything I knew was necessarily incriminating or could lead to prison sentence. It could lead to accountability, it could lead to something being done. So this never happened again. I spent three months searching for a non Trump World affiliated attorney, and then it came to the point where I had to testify either with an attorney or without one, and I did turn back to Trump World. And I talked about this a lot in the book too. It's a too long for this conversation, but there is a lot of personal struggle in those months where I was looking for the attorney and I had gone through two depositions with that attorney who gave me legal advice not to be completely forthcoming with the committee. But I also accept responsibility that I accepted that legal advice. Now I am an adult, and I could have made a different decision, but I didn't feel empowered too, and I was scared. You know, I wasn't in Trump world. They were sort of aware that I wanted to be out of it, but I felt stucked back in at that point. And at that point, I was surrounded completely by men. I had no one to turn to. I was completely alone and isolated. I hadn't really kept in contact with many people in DC. I was just trying to get through this period. Fast forward, pages of my deposition death Positions are published and I'm reading them, and I had this think that was like this true like mental breaking point for me, because I saw in those pages that I really had become the person I didn't want to become. An I was complicit in those days, but I was more complicit than and I wasn't upholding the oath that I swore to protect and defend our constitution and our democracy. I was defending Donald Trump. And that's like, yeah, I mean, it's I don't It shouldn't have taken that long, and it it didn't. But I shoved a lot of those emotions under the rug because I was really just in survival mode at that point. I felt like I had no other choice. But I recognized in that moment that I did and I had to do what was right, what I defined is right to turn things around. And yeah, it was important to me that people were held accountable. So how did you make that shift?

Yeah? I and in writing the book too, I very deliberately wrote it so the reader could experience sort of how my mind was operating at the time. But ever is a good point that I there are some things that I don't directly address, and I don't ever want to speak to something that when I haven't fully made sense of myself and be irresponsible the way that I'm messaging about things, just because these are such dangerous times and I, you know, I recognize the platform that I have and I have seen firsthand how it's you know, and I want to always be responsible at that plot and I hope that I am, and I think that I have been responsed a little so far in this portion of my life. But I but that said, I just want to preface that because I on January sixth, in January seventh, specifically, I was very clear with my colleagues, including Mark, that it wasn't Antifa that stormed the Capitol that day, and the administration, the former president, and we the administration staffers, were solely responsible for what happened that day, a day never would have happened if the President hadn't summoned people to Washington, d C. Someoned a mobbed Washington, d C. And unleashed these dangerous people on the Capitol. And it also didn't have to get to that point. He could have put out a statement. He didn't have to include violent rhetoric in his speech that morning. It got to that point because he created that situation. And you know, I remember on the seventh I had this. It was I didn't even want to go to work that day. I was in really just this deep disassociation mode at that point, where I was there's still a job to do. We have to we have to land the plane. And I'm not by any means saying it was the right decision. I'm not by any means excusing the fact that I say, but I did say, and that's just a fact. On January twentieth, after Joe Biden was inaugurate to I left the White House. I remember passing the Capital right after he was Inaugury's It was like, right around noon, I just felt this sense of relief and I was like, it's you know, it's finally over. And then I crashed and I felt that wall of burnout. And I went to see a member of Congress that is a Republican that didn't serve on the January sixth Committee during that portion. In the few days after the election, and he had asked me, you know, he's starting to press me, like what was happening inside the West Wing that day. I was sort of in that state of denial. But then I felt myself crack a little bit because I hadn't broken what I call like the code of conduct to remain loyal and stay silent. And I just remember I kept saying to my O, it was bad. It was really bad. I none of it makes sense to me. None of this makes sense, and so it's it's still is a while. Like I knew that I wanted at that point to distance myself from chump World, but it's very difficult to when you're in that environment, especially with the access that I had, and I wasn't working Actually that's I was working for him. So I was supposed to move to Florida with him. That didn't end up. I didn't end up moving to Florida, but he kept me on his payroll for three months. We can beg the question of why. I have my theories of it. So then the committee's formed. I had started to make sense of the January sixth and the atrocities surrounding that day, but there wasn't a sense of accountability nobody was saying or doing anything about it, and there wasn't It didn't seem like there was this push for something to happen, and things weren't moving along on the hill until the summer of twenty twenty one the Committee's formed, and then eventually I'm subpoena, and I knew from the moment that I was subpoena that I didn't want work with a Trump World attorney because I had been very close to the administration and people who had worked with Trump World attorneys, and I knew, either spoken or unspoken, that there was an expectation that if you accepted legal help, you're committing to staying loyal to Donald Trump. And I knew from the onset that I wanted to be forthcoming and truthful to the committee. And I didn't think that anything I knew was necessarily incriminating or could lead to prison sentence. It could lead to accountability, it could lead to something being done. So this never happened again. I spent three months searching for a non Trump World affiliated attorney, and then it came to the point where I had to testify either with an attorney or without one, and I did turn back to Trump World. And I talked about this a lot in the book too. It's a too long for this conversation, but there is a lot of personal struggle in those months where I was looking for the attorney and I had gone through two depositions with that attorney who gave me legal advice not to be completely forthcoming with the committee. But I also accept responsibility that I accepted that legal advice. Now I am an adult, and I could have made a different decision, but I didn't feel empowered too, and I was scared. You know, I wasn't in Trump world. They were sort of aware that I wanted to be out of it, but I felt stucked back in at that point. And at that point, I was surrounded completely by men. I had no one to turn to. I was completely alone and isolated. I hadn't really kept in contact with many people in DC. I was just trying to get through this period. Fast forward, pages of my deposition death Positions are published and I'm reading them, and I had this think that was like this true like mental breaking point for me, because I saw in those pages that I really had become the person I didn't want to become. An I was complicit in those days, but I was more complicit than and I wasn't upholding the oath that I swore to protect and defend our constitution and our democracy. I was defending Donald Trump. And that's like, yeah, I mean, it's I don't It shouldn't have taken that long, and it it didn't. But I shoved a lot of those emotions under the rug because I was really just in survival mode at that point. I felt like I had no other choice. But I recognized in that moment that I did and I had to do what was right, what I defined is right to turn things around. And yeah, it was important to me that people were held accountable. So how did you make that shift?

You know, because you're saying you were pretty isolated, You didn't have many of your DC contacts around, you were completely surrounded by men from the Trump administration. Did you feel overtly threatened? Was was it just that you felt so pressured? And how did you how did you shift it? Who helped you change from sort of feeling like an agent of Trumps to a person in service of the country.

You know, because you're saying you were pretty isolated, You didn't have many of your DC contacts around, you were completely surrounded by men from the Trump administration. Did you feel overtly threatened? Was was it just that you felt so pressured? And how did you how did you shift it? Who helped you change from sort of feeling like an agent of Trumps to a person in service of the country.

One of my best friends in the world, Alissa Ferrick Griffin. I worked with her in the Trump administration. She resigned before wait, before January six She spoke out on January seventh, and was this lone voice of courage at the time of somebody that worked in the administration was willing to speak truth to power and call out how we all were complicit. And she was my best friend then, but I sort of felt this moral split with her. Were on one hand, like I agreed with everything she was saying, and I did feel a little envious of the fact that she had the confidence to do that, but I also felt that she broke the unspoken code of loyalty. So we had a little bit of a falling out. So as I'm having this moment of this moral reckoning, I'm trying to figure out what I can do. And Alyssa and I had spoken a few times after January sixth, but I've reached out to her, and I look back on this now and I was like, you know, she had no reason to help me, which texts me back. She was this lone voice of courage, and she experienced a lot, a lot of damaging fleck to her career and who she is, both from the left and the right. And you know, I in having this platform too, And what I'm also trying to bring to people's attention is like, you don't shame people out of freaking out of that idea a lot mindset, and I'm again I'm guilty, but I can speak to that from my own personal history. I saw for a year and a half how she became a villain of the left and the right. People called her a grifter. On the right, people say that she was being an opportunist, and then people on the left were questioning all of her intentions. You know, So it's right and not without complete you know, there is an authority to do that, and she should have to anser, we should all have to answer questions to that, and I don't shy away from that. But there also is a point where we need to be welcoming, because this is never going to change and stop unless we can welcome people back in with open arms. I say that because Alyssa did text me back and she invited me to her townhouse in Georgetown, And I look back on this moment sort of this like cinematic moment for me now, because I was so scared to walk up to her front door and I almost left, and she opened the door, and she has two glasses of wine in her hands, and she just walcomes me inside. And I look back on that moment now and it's the like I'm stepping through the doors of going back to the right side of history and correcting my wrongs and doing what I can to hold myself accountable and to change course for myself. But I'm also being welcomed back into this world of you know, female empowerment and having her support system. I mean, she's been phenomenal throughout all this, but I was really the first time in a long time that I started to be surrounded by women again, and I had forgot how empowering that could be. Well. Listen, I helped arrange with Liz Cheney for a third interview with my Trump orld counsel, and then eventually, you know, we got to the point where I was then being encouraged to potentially take a contempt charge of Congress to stop cooperating. And Liz Cheney's the next person who opened the door and helped me find her in the January sixth to help me find new counsel that represented being pro bo, a council that represented me and my sole interests.

One of my best friends in the world, Alissa Ferrick Griffin. I worked with her in the Trump administration. She resigned before wait, before January six She spoke out on January seventh, and was this lone voice of courage at the time of somebody that worked in the administration was willing to speak truth to power and call out how we all were complicit. And she was my best friend then, but I sort of felt this moral split with her. Were on one hand, like I agreed with everything she was saying, and I did feel a little envious of the fact that she had the confidence to do that, but I also felt that she broke the unspoken code of loyalty. So we had a little bit of a falling out. So as I'm having this moment of this moral reckoning, I'm trying to figure out what I can do. And Alyssa and I had spoken a few times after January sixth, but I've reached out to her, and I look back on this now and I was like, you know, she had no reason to help me, which texts me back. She was this lone voice of courage, and she experienced a lot, a lot of damaging fleck to her career and who she is, both from the left and the right. And you know, I in having this platform too, And what I'm also trying to bring to people's attention is like, you don't shame people out of freaking out of that idea a lot mindset, and I'm again I'm guilty, but I can speak to that from my own personal history. I saw for a year and a half how she became a villain of the left and the right. People called her a grifter. On the right, people say that she was being an opportunist, and then people on the left were questioning all of her intentions. You know, So it's right and not without complete you know, there is an authority to do that, and she should have to anser, we should all have to answer questions to that, and I don't shy away from that. But there also is a point where we need to be welcoming, because this is never going to change and stop unless we can welcome people back in with open arms. I say that because Alyssa did text me back and she invited me to her townhouse in Georgetown, And I look back on this moment sort of this like cinematic moment for me now, because I was so scared to walk up to her front door and I almost left, and she opened the door, and she has two glasses of wine in her hands, and she just walcomes me inside. And I look back on that moment now and it's the like I'm stepping through the doors of going back to the right side of history and correcting my wrongs and doing what I can to hold myself accountable and to change course for myself. But I'm also being welcomed back into this world of you know, female empowerment and having her support system. I mean, she's been phenomenal throughout all this, but I was really the first time in a long time that I started to be surrounded by women again, and I had forgot how empowering that could be. Well. Listen, I helped arrange with Liz Cheney for a third interview with my Trump orld counsel, and then eventually, you know, we got to the point where I was then being encouraged to potentially take a contempt charge of Congress to stop cooperating. And Liz Cheney's the next person who opened the door and helped me find her in the January sixth to help me find new counsel that represented being pro bo, a council that represented me and my sole interests.

Wow, we'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. So Trump's counsel was telling you to take a contempt of Congress charge.

Wow, we'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. So Trump's counsel was telling you to take a contempt of Congress charge.

Suggesting it was the weekend after the Department of Justice had not convicted Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino of defying their congressional subpoenas. So at that point, the committee wanted me to cooperate more, and my counsel had suggested that it was in my best interest to stop cooperating. That contempt was a small risk, but it was one I'm paraphrasing, but one essentially that was worth willing to take. The direct quote, isn't the book isn't too? Yeah, I wanted to continue cooperating, and I want There is no world where I would have taken a contempt charge, But to me, I was like I will. At that point, I was willing to represent myself despite what would happen. But I did reach out to Liz Cheney and she has been a phenomenal support system. But also I think the speakon of confidence in such a dark time in American history, we're seeing somebody like Liz Cheney, who is so conservative, sit on a panel of mostly Democrats and be able to speak the truth about what happened. That's it shouldn't be this moving moment, but it is, like, because that's the point that we're at.

Suggesting it was the weekend after the Department of Justice had not convicted Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino of defying their congressional subpoenas. So at that point, the committee wanted me to cooperate more, and my counsel had suggested that it was in my best interest to stop cooperating. That contempt was a small risk, but it was one I'm paraphrasing, but one essentially that was worth willing to take. The direct quote, isn't the book isn't too? Yeah, I wanted to continue cooperating, and I want There is no world where I would have taken a contempt charge, But to me, I was like I will. At that point, I was willing to represent myself despite what would happen. But I did reach out to Liz Cheney and she has been a phenomenal support system. But also I think the speakon of confidence in such a dark time in American history, we're seeing somebody like Liz Cheney, who is so conservative, sit on a panel of mostly Democrats and be able to speak the truth about what happened. That's it shouldn't be this moving moment, but it is, like, because that's the point that we're at.

Yeah, well, we're at a point where the right is willing to sacrifice the country so that the right can maintain power. And the unfortunate reality of that is that then anyone who says, hey, maybe we shouldn't do that, you know, they say, like, it's us versus them, It's the Democrats versus the Republicans, and it's it is refreshing when you can all sit together and say, no, no, we're supposed to work in cohort for the country. It's not supposed to be, you know, half of us battling the other half to calm down corporate interests. It's like it's supposed to be for I have average citizens, And I would imagine that there's a reckoning that happens when you've been such a high powered White House staffer. But you also go, look, I'm just a human who is trying to figure out how to exist at my moral core and deal with the realities, as you say, you know, to be accountable for the ways that you lost yourself in something.

Yeah, well, we're at a point where the right is willing to sacrifice the country so that the right can maintain power. And the unfortunate reality of that is that then anyone who says, hey, maybe we shouldn't do that, you know, they say, like, it's us versus them, It's the Democrats versus the Republicans, and it's it is refreshing when you can all sit together and say, no, no, we're supposed to work in cohort for the country. It's not supposed to be, you know, half of us battling the other half to calm down corporate interests. It's like it's supposed to be for I have average citizens, And I would imagine that there's a reckoning that happens when you've been such a high powered White House staffer. But you also go, look, I'm just a human who is trying to figure out how to exist at my moral core and deal with the realities, as you say, you know, to be accountable for the ways that you lost yourself in something.

Like this going into it too, you know, I knew how powerful Trump. Trump attacks a lot of people, but this attacks on women are specifically violent and vitriolic, and I knew that going into it. I'd seen him do it to a host of women. I had seen his.

Like this going into it too, you know, I knew how powerful Trump. Trump attacks a lot of people, but this attacks on women are specifically violent and vitriolic, and I knew that going into it. I'd seen him do it to a host of women. I had seen his.

Were you scared?

Were you scared?

I was, and I wasn't. I had made peace with it, I was. I Looking back, I probably should have been more scared than I was, but at that point I was. I had the surge of confidence knowing that I was going I was on the correct course at that point. But I was scared also, mostly for my family too. I remember feeling because I knew that what I was once I had learned that, I would testify life by myself. You know, I was scared for them because I couldn't protect them at that point, and I knew that my decision was putting them in harm's way of Trump's attacks as well, not necessarily directly on them. But you know, look at what happened to Ruby Freeman and Shame Moss or Rusty Bombs, like these people get trapped in their homes and can't leave, and you know that's that's the former president of the United States. Like that to me is like, again, I was complicit in all this. That is the fact that he is even being considered for a second term and it's the front runner, and he's facing ninety one indictments and DJ has the largest criminal case in American history against the former president right now. Like that, It's just asinine to me.

I was, and I wasn't. I had made peace with it, I was. I Looking back, I probably should have been more scared than I was, but at that point I was. I had the surge of confidence knowing that I was going I was on the correct course at that point. But I was scared also, mostly for my family too. I remember feeling because I knew that what I was once I had learned that, I would testify life by myself. You know, I was scared for them because I couldn't protect them at that point, and I knew that my decision was putting them in harm's way of Trump's attacks as well, not necessarily directly on them. But you know, look at what happened to Ruby Freeman and Shame Moss or Rusty Bombs, like these people get trapped in their homes and can't leave, and you know that's that's the former president of the United States. Like that to me is like, again, I was complicit in all this. That is the fact that he is even being considered for a second term and it's the front runner, and he's facing ninety one indictments and DJ has the largest criminal case in American history against the former president right now. Like that, It's just asinine to me.

But it feels like the upside down, doesn't it.

But it feels like the upside down, doesn't it.

It's yes, and it's I ken, and I can't believe that we're living through this period of American history. And I do feel this burden of responsibility to not only speak truths because I am a former Trump ever, I am someone that was very loyal to him, and I was on the inside. But I can also speak truth to who he is. And he's made clear to us for years who he really is. And I should have seen it then, but I didn't, and I see it so clearly now. And I think of the people that do support him, and there is the base, people who will never waiver their support for him. But unfortunately, there as we approach this the next election cycle, there is also this constituency of people who I think about. I'm going to use my parents as an example, though they would never vote for Trump again in their lives, but all use working class Americans who he has conned into staying in his grip and who he is convinced that he is the better option than Joe Biden, which is not the case at all, Like it isn't because he is as no respect for so many reasons, but shortly like, no respect for the rules, well, no respect for the Constitution. But I think of people like that whose minds could be changed. But again, we don't shame people out of their preconceived notions. We don't shame people out of voting a certain way. We have to have some sense of moral clarity here that we have to be able to welcome people back, and we have to create an environment where we're not excusing the fact that they supported Trump for we're educating them on the actual dangers that we're not saying. You know, he's bad, he's everything that he is, But we have to point out what he is actually threatening, which is our rule of law, which is our democratic experiment. We are not guaranteed. And you know, I really think that this next election, like it is, it's a test on the survival of our of our system of government. In so many ways, and I do fear if he's president again that it's you know, I'm not going to doomstake attashed by so that the Constitution is going to become obsolete, but it feels like in my way of life, and I think that will really be the shifting point where it's going to be nearly impossible to come back from. And just looking at history, you look at countries that have undergone similar transitions like this, and ideologically like it's it is so difficult to come back from something like that.

It's yes, and it's I ken, and I can't believe that we're living through this period of American history. And I do feel this burden of responsibility to not only speak truths because I am a former Trump ever, I am someone that was very loyal to him, and I was on the inside. But I can also speak truth to who he is. And he's made clear to us for years who he really is. And I should have seen it then, but I didn't, and I see it so clearly now. And I think of the people that do support him, and there is the base, people who will never waiver their support for him. But unfortunately, there as we approach this the next election cycle, there is also this constituency of people who I think about. I'm going to use my parents as an example, though they would never vote for Trump again in their lives, but all use working class Americans who he has conned into staying in his grip and who he is convinced that he is the better option than Joe Biden, which is not the case at all, Like it isn't because he is as no respect for so many reasons, but shortly like, no respect for the rules, well, no respect for the Constitution. But I think of people like that whose minds could be changed. But again, we don't shame people out of their preconceived notions. We don't shame people out of voting a certain way. We have to have some sense of moral clarity here that we have to be able to welcome people back, and we have to create an environment where we're not excusing the fact that they supported Trump for we're educating them on the actual dangers that we're not saying. You know, he's bad, he's everything that he is, But we have to point out what he is actually threatening, which is our rule of law, which is our democratic experiment. We are not guaranteed. And you know, I really think that this next election, like it is, it's a test on the survival of our of our system of government. In so many ways, and I do fear if he's president again that it's you know, I'm not going to doomstake attashed by so that the Constitution is going to become obsolete, but it feels like in my way of life, and I think that will really be the shifting point where it's going to be nearly impossible to come back from. And just looking at history, you look at countries that have undergone similar transitions like this, and ideologically like it's it is so difficult to come back from something like that.

Well, and I think, not only is it important to be honest about the fact that we wouldn't we would likely not make it back. I also think, you know, whether or not you think he's the best or you think he's milk toast, it's also helpful to look at Joe Biden and go look whether he was your number one candidate or not. He's passed more legislation than any president in sixty years. You know, he's had one of the most successful administrations of all time. What he's done for child poverty, what he's done for infrastructure, what he's doing for the economy, what he's done for the job market. You don't have to like the guy, but you do need a president who can govern effectively. So I hope to your point, we can call people in with wins and community betterment rather than foster this sort of sense of us versus them. And you talk about it as a moral imperative, and I think that that's really important. I think it's important, sure not to catastrophize, but also not to sugarcoat it, not to protect it's completely it's important, and I wonder for you, you know, thinking about things on the other side of this. You know, I know you've really laid those into your testimony, and you put everything in a book so that the records would be down and people could look at the truth. And as you say, you know, even in the beginning of the book, I appreciate that you reference. You know, not only was the book written from your experience, but it was written from testimony and call logs and visitor logs like you put the facts somewhere so that a president, a former president who loves to lie and his staffers who helped him do so, can't lie about the truth of what you said. But when you pull back from the sort of American legacy of which your story is such a big part and you go into that moral imperative. I think again, maybe it's because I'm a woman who like thinks about your position as a young woman, and I just think when you think about your personal story with being on this journey and having to find yourself and center yourself in truth and separate yourself from the administration and find the support of folks like Liz Cheney and you know, your friend who welcomed you into the house with two glasses a wine. Like for the women who are listening to this, who certainly aren't working for a president, but might be facing a similar moral struggle in any kind of relationship, you know, professional or personal, Like, is there any advice that has really helped you face things like this courageously? Is there something you'd offer, you know, to those women who are at home or in their cars with us today going the circumstances are different, But I know that struggle.

Well, and I think, not only is it important to be honest about the fact that we wouldn't we would likely not make it back. I also think, you know, whether or not you think he's the best or you think he's milk toast, it's also helpful to look at Joe Biden and go look whether he was your number one candidate or not. He's passed more legislation than any president in sixty years. You know, he's had one of the most successful administrations of all time. What he's done for child poverty, what he's done for infrastructure, what he's doing for the economy, what he's done for the job market. You don't have to like the guy, but you do need a president who can govern effectively. So I hope to your point, we can call people in with wins and community betterment rather than foster this sort of sense of us versus them. And you talk about it as a moral imperative, and I think that that's really important. I think it's important, sure not to catastrophize, but also not to sugarcoat it, not to protect it's completely it's important, and I wonder for you, you know, thinking about things on the other side of this. You know, I know you've really laid those into your testimony, and you put everything in a book so that the records would be down and people could look at the truth. And as you say, you know, even in the beginning of the book, I appreciate that you reference. You know, not only was the book written from your experience, but it was written from testimony and call logs and visitor logs like you put the facts somewhere so that a president, a former president who loves to lie and his staffers who helped him do so, can't lie about the truth of what you said. But when you pull back from the sort of American legacy of which your story is such a big part and you go into that moral imperative. I think again, maybe it's because I'm a woman who like thinks about your position as a young woman, and I just think when you think about your personal story with being on this journey and having to find yourself and center yourself in truth and separate yourself from the administration and find the support of folks like Liz Cheney and you know, your friend who welcomed you into the house with two glasses a wine. Like for the women who are listening to this, who certainly aren't working for a president, but might be facing a similar moral struggle in any kind of relationship, you know, professional or personal, Like, is there any advice that has really helped you face things like this courageously? Is there something you'd offer, you know, to those women who are at home or in their cars with us today going the circumstances are different, But I know that struggle.

A single piece of advice that's so difficult because I you know, I again, the book was really difficult for me to write in a lot of ways because I knew that if I was you know, it took a long time for me to decide to write the book for a lot of reasons, but I knew if I was going to write a book, it was going to be to write a book that was true to my experience and also very vulnerable and candid to what I wanted to share about. Even my personal life too, which I just think is so important, and I, you know, I oftentimes I think about memoirs that have changed my life, for books that have changed my life, of people sharing their stories, and that's altiate the way that I think about things. And you know, as a young woman in a position like this, it was difficult in the sense of, yeah, I am I felt like I writing the book, I was up against this army of men, Republican men who have attacked me now for over a year. But also that there is there is this void sometimes that I see of more on the right, but just this void of like I'm trying to figure out how to say this diplomatically, but a overall in American society of people that I just feel like we're entering this period of people not holding themselves accountable to things. I guess I just think about my experience with all this, and I think there are so many times that I didn't feel like my voice mattered, and I didn't think that I need talking about any of this mattered, whether or you know, I wasn't thinking about that in a legal sense. Really that I never went into this, nor do I still have this mindset of you know, I had this goal to hold people in legal jeopardy or to legal account I think it's important to hold people accountable in the court of public opinion, and I thought that's what my testimony could offer. To this day, I think that's what my testimony can offer. But I also think that what I've done can offer that specifically to young women. I think young women oftentimes feel like their voice doesn't matter, or they won't be heard, or their judgments will be questioned and their decisions will be questioned and new way if unfortunately, women are afraid to come forward after sexual assault because there is this culture of misogyny and people that have historically been powerful. And you know, the book is titled enough for many reasons, and some less obvious than others. But you know, at the end of my acknowledgments, I made it a point to say this, and to me, this is where the title connects with me. The most, and Alyssa was a tremendous asset and a great friend. She opened the door. I call her my north star like she helped guide me home. But it was when Liz Cheney sort of took my hand from Melissa, and Liz reminded me that my voice alone is enough and that I am powerful enough not only to create change in American society, but that it change starts with one person. And I think for young women, I think that they even if they have no interest in government, like, it's so important, especially now, to have that message out there and to have people that can speak to that and that they feel supported by. And you don't have to be Republican demrict. I don't care what you are like. It's I want everybody, especially women, to be supported in this next stage of American society, and also to be that be able to provide that support system because I was surrounded by this culture of misogyny for so long, and we need to focus on creating generations of girls who can feel empowered to run for office, who don't feel like they have to work as an underlink to the chief of staff, or they can be president, or they can serve in these senior roles, but they also they don't have to to create change in society, and it's so important that we cultivate this environment of welcoming and you know that that girls are that were, that they're enough.

A single piece of advice that's so difficult because I you know, I again, the book was really difficult for me to write in a lot of ways because I knew that if I was you know, it took a long time for me to decide to write the book for a lot of reasons, but I knew if I was going to write a book, it was going to be to write a book that was true to my experience and also very vulnerable and candid to what I wanted to share about. Even my personal life too, which I just think is so important, and I, you know, I oftentimes I think about memoirs that have changed my life, for books that have changed my life, of people sharing their stories, and that's altiate the way that I think about things. And you know, as a young woman in a position like this, it was difficult in the sense of, yeah, I am I felt like I writing the book, I was up against this army of men, Republican men who have attacked me now for over a year. But also that there is there is this void sometimes that I see of more on the right, but just this void of like I'm trying to figure out how to say this diplomatically, but a overall in American society of people that I just feel like we're entering this period of people not holding themselves accountable to things. I guess I just think about my experience with all this, and I think there are so many times that I didn't feel like my voice mattered, and I didn't think that I need talking about any of this mattered, whether or you know, I wasn't thinking about that in a legal sense. Really that I never went into this, nor do I still have this mindset of you know, I had this goal to hold people in legal jeopardy or to legal account I think it's important to hold people accountable in the court of public opinion, and I thought that's what my testimony could offer. To this day, I think that's what my testimony can offer. But I also think that what I've done can offer that specifically to young women. I think young women oftentimes feel like their voice doesn't matter, or they won't be heard, or their judgments will be questioned and their decisions will be questioned and new way if unfortunately, women are afraid to come forward after sexual assault because there is this culture of misogyny and people that have historically been powerful. And you know, the book is titled enough for many reasons, and some less obvious than others. But you know, at the end of my acknowledgments, I made it a point to say this, and to me, this is where the title connects with me. The most, and Alyssa was a tremendous asset and a great friend. She opened the door. I call her my north star like she helped guide me home. But it was when Liz Cheney sort of took my hand from Melissa, and Liz reminded me that my voice alone is enough and that I am powerful enough not only to create change in American society, but that it change starts with one person. And I think for young women, I think that they even if they have no interest in government, like, it's so important, especially now, to have that message out there and to have people that can speak to that and that they feel supported by. And you don't have to be Republican demrict. I don't care what you are like. It's I want everybody, especially women, to be supported in this next stage of American society, and also to be that be able to provide that support system because I was surrounded by this culture of misogyny for so long, and we need to focus on creating generations of girls who can feel empowered to run for office, who don't feel like they have to work as an underlink to the chief of staff, or they can be president, or they can serve in these senior roles, but they also they don't have to to create change in society, and it's so important that we cultivate this environment of welcoming and you know that that girls are that were, that they're enough.

I love that well for you when you think about those aspirations for young women and you think about your own future, what do you think is next for you? What career path do you want to take now?

I love that well for you when you think about those aspirations for young women and you think about your own future, what do you think is next for you? What career path do you want to take now?

I wish I had it all figured out, I uh, incandidly like I I don't. I never really pictured myself either. There were times I contemplated, like what a role in a like a press role would look like in government that I always saw myself as an behind the scenes operator. At the end of the day, I never really saw myself in for facing role, especially in the near trajectory of my career in future. So adjusting to this period, it's been rewarding, and I have been fortunate to receive such outpouring support and love from people and both sides of the aisle. That said, you know, I think in this next year, I see it as my responsibility to keep talking about this and talking about this in a productive way, because as we talked about a short while ago. It does look like he's going to be the Republican nominee next year, and Donald Trump can never be near the Oval office again. And if I can, if I can change one person's mind, or if I can help open their mind. You know, I've never asked people to believe me. I've put myself under oath in front of the country. I've participated in over eleven government depositions. At this point, I have written a book, I've gone on the press. I am adjusting to this forward facing role. It's not comfortable, but I see it as my responsibility and honestly my obligation, and it's sort of the next step in me continuing to right my wrongs and to correct course for myself. And it's the way that I think is the most productive to give back is to keep speaking truths to the danger of Donald Trump, to the dangers of people around him, to hold them accountable in the court of public opinion. Leave it to the investigative bodies to do there, to conduct their investigations. But we're approaching an election season, and you know, if I think that my voice can add value and start to help shift that that mindset to create this environment where we're also saying enough, we've had enough of as the time is now and this has to end at some point.

I wish I had it all figured out, I uh, incandidly like I I don't. I never really pictured myself either. There were times I contemplated, like what a role in a like a press role would look like in government that I always saw myself as an behind the scenes operator. At the end of the day, I never really saw myself in for facing role, especially in the near trajectory of my career in future. So adjusting to this period, it's been rewarding, and I have been fortunate to receive such outpouring support and love from people and both sides of the aisle. That said, you know, I think in this next year, I see it as my responsibility to keep talking about this and talking about this in a productive way, because as we talked about a short while ago. It does look like he's going to be the Republican nominee next year, and Donald Trump can never be near the Oval office again. And if I can, if I can change one person's mind, or if I can help open their mind. You know, I've never asked people to believe me. I've put myself under oath in front of the country. I've participated in over eleven government depositions. At this point, I have written a book, I've gone on the press. I am adjusting to this forward facing role. It's not comfortable, but I see it as my responsibility and honestly my obligation, and it's sort of the next step in me continuing to right my wrongs and to correct course for myself. And it's the way that I think is the most productive to give back is to keep speaking truths to the danger of Donald Trump, to the dangers of people around him, to hold them accountable in the court of public opinion. Leave it to the investigative bodies to do there, to conduct their investigations. But we're approaching an election season, and you know, if I think that my voice can add value and start to help shift that that mindset to create this environment where we're also saying enough, we've had enough of as the time is now and this has to end at some point.

It has to end now, all right, girl, I'll see you on the campaign trail.

It has to end now, all right, girl, I'll see you on the campaign trail.

Then. I feel like nowadays I am I have more Democratic friends even in the House. Like I did a talk with Jamie Raskin a few weeks ago at George Washington University, and we've talked about going on. I would gladly endorse and speak with Democrats to meet again. This is not a partisan is you at all?

Then. I feel like nowadays I am I have more Democratic friends even in the House. Like I did a talk with Jamie Raskin a few weeks ago at George Washington University, and we've talked about going on. I would gladly endorse and speak with Democrats to meet again. This is not a partisan is you at all?

No, it's literally Project Save America.

No, it's literally Project Save America.

That's that's where we're at. Save America. It's probably trademarked by Trump. Yes, save the soul of America. Save save the future of America. But again, we all have to come together in this time, and I think that's it's a powerful image to create too. So let's plan something done.

That's that's where we're at. Save America. It's probably trademarked by Trump. Yes, save the soul of America. Save save the future of America. But again, we all have to come together in this time, and I think that's it's a powerful image to create too. So let's plan something done.

Can't wait. I really appreciate you coming today. I appreciate your candor and and you know the thoughtfulness with which you'll walk us through these realities. But also to your point, take accountability. I think it's a really powerful example to set. I hope that the example you set encourages more young people to get active in politics, and yeah, we've we've got work to do, so let's go and do it.

Can't wait. I really appreciate you coming today. I appreciate your candor and and you know the thoughtfulness with which you'll walk us through these realities. But also to your point, take accountability. I think it's a really powerful example to set. I hope that the example you set encourages more young people to get active in politics, and yeah, we've we've got work to do, so let's go and do it.

Let's do it. Thank you Sophia for having me on.

Let's do it. Thank you Sophia for having me on.

Thank you Cassidy, Thank you that's on the book.

Thank you Cassidy, Thank you that's on the book.

Thank you it is

Thank you it is