Hi everyone at Sophia, Welcome back to work in Progress. This is the third episode in our four part mini series Well and Good, a series of shorter episodes that focus on all things sustainability. I am so jazzed to introduce you to our guest. Today. We have with us the smart and savvy fashion writer and clothing sustainability expert Alden Wicker. Alden is the founder and editor in chief of the website eco Cult, which has been mentioned by The New York Times, Teen, Vogue, MSNBC, NPR, and Nylon Magazine, just to name a few. It features shopping guides and researched articles about the big ideas and issues in the international sustainable fashion industry. Alden is also a contributing freelance writer for publications like Glamour, Popular Science, Newsweek, Box, and Refinery twenty nine. She knows her staff, and as someone who also now works in sustainable fashion, I feel extra fortunate to have been able to sit down and speak with Alden about the industry in the years that she has spent developing her knowledge and skills as an expert in it. I thoroughly enjoyed my eye opening conversation with Alden and I can't wait to start using her consumer fashion tips, and I know you all will feel the same. Enjoy. Hello, and welcome to work in progress. Alden. I'm so excited that you are here with me today. You are the founder and the editor in chief of Eco Cult. You are a sustainable fashion writer and expert. You have spoken at the u N. You are this incredible human and I want to know how you wound up doing the work that you do. But before we we get into why so many of us know you to day, I I want to go backwards with you. I always like to know how people started. I became aware of you as this fashion expert and this very cheek woman and someone who tells the truth about you know, industries and humanity. And and how something that I think so many people treat as ornamental or frivolous is actually a huge global industry that's so impactful. But I wonder how you became this way? Were you always into cool outfits and scarves and and speaking out about you know, people's quality of life? Who who was all in it? I don't know, eight or ten years old? Uh well I was at Dork first of all. Um. Yeah, so my mom got subscriptions to Newsweek and Time, and I would I would read them and try to absorb whatever I could get through my head. Um at that age. And um, I do remember I read about the peak oil, which never actually happened, but it's it's a problem for other reasons. And I would go to the mall after reading that and say no to plastic bags because bags are made from oil and I didn't want to contribute to some to this environmental problem. Um. And so you know, I would go in Claires and I'd be like, no bag, please, I'll put my Claes purchase in my limited to in my limited to bag. Thanks. So that was I mean, I was a huge dork about that. And you know my mom cares about the environment as well. And I would tramp around in the woods around our house and um, but I was not fashionable at all at all. And I still feel like I'm trying to catch up. I get that I had to wear a uniform for so much of my school girl years, I guess you could say. And now I dress up as other people and trying to figure out what I like to wear still feels like a mystery to me. Um, because I literally have to be people other than myself for work. So I really feel you on that. And the photos of me tramping, you know, trampling around in the woods as a kid, are mortifying in terms of my fashion choices. But I really I just I liked what I liked. So maybe maybe that's why, you know, maybe that's why we've ended up here. Um when you say the woods, where did you grow up? Yeah? I grew up in North Carolina, in a very very tiny town outside of Rali, and we had hud eighty acres of woods around our house and so I could just take off for the whole day and wander around. And my mom let me do that. She was like so she wanted me to be independent. And then when she was she needed a break, she dropped me off of my great aunt uncle's cow farm on the other side of town, and I would tramp around trying to avoid u cow pies in the middle of the field. So I had a very uh, I had a lovely childhood, really protected and full of love. I love that I am. I wound up spending gosh the years from the time that I was just twenty one to twenty nine in Wilmington, North Carolina, So that makes me you're mentioned of being from there, makes me feel very nostalgic. Yeah. I mean, if you started speaking with a North Carolina accent, I would pick it back up very quickly. Put me, put me in a restaurant or a bar there, and give me a beer and we're back. It happens real fast. What was that like for you? I mean you, you know you say it felt safe and idyllic and you got to be curious and explore. Um were you Were you doing that on your own? Did you have siblings? Yeah? I have an older sister, so also, you know, I don't know if you're an older younger sibling. When you're the younger sibling, your older sibling protects you from from anything bad going wrong, right, So, um, it felt very protected in that way. And also our family are big readers, right. We would all, you know, eat our cereal for breakfast with a book next to us, so always reading and finding out things. And my mom was single for most of that time because my dad passed away when I was three, So she modeled for me being a good mother but also knowing how to use a drill. You know. She liked to buy houses and renovate them. And so I would be over there and she'd hand me a hammer and teach me how to put a nail in. So um, that is so cool. Yeah, it's really great to grow with the mom like that because now I didn't ever need to ask, you know, and now I've learned, I guess how to ask for help. But for a while I was like, no, I can always do it myself. I don't need anybody, at least of all a man. That's so funny. I think that I got a lot of that because for my parents, I was I was am the only child, and I think my mom and your mom sound very similar energetically. And my dad is actually an artist who's a photographer and and also grew up you know, for so much of his I foun a on a farm in Canada. And so it's really interesting because I kind of got all of the dynamics you were talking about from them as well. You know, they wanted to make sure that as a girl, I would be solid in you know, any sort of on any end of the spectrum, whether it was you know, more traditionally or stereotypically female or male. They wanted me to be able to hold my own, you know, so whether that was like knowing how to use a power drill and my dad had a mikita. I just thought that was so cool. I was like, I can wield a mikita, yeah, you know, or or my mom, you know that nikita is like that be'st the best drill. It was a fabulous drill, really, you know what you're talking about. And my mom wanted to make sure that when I turned five, I started learning how to box because she was just not having, you know, me run into any situation I could handle. And I think it's so cool, you know, whatever the circumstances of your family are as you mentioned. You know, you said your dad passed when you were young, and I'm so right. I can't imagine how hard that must have been. It was, it was it was harder for my older sister. She protected me from from that, and my mom protected me from that, so I didn't really realize I didn't absorb that trauma the way they absorbed it for me. So that's also another way I was really protected. Wow, yeah, I imagine because you were I mean, you were so young. What a moment, and I don't know, you're you know, despite what I can only estimate, it was a very devastating loss. The amount of love you were surrounded by is palpable. Even in the way that you tell the story stories of your mom and and the stories about your sister. It's it's really cool to to see that like huge grin on your face as you speak about them, and and I don't know if you know, but yeah, I'm looking at you. You light up when you talk about them, and it's it's really it's really special. Yeah, they're really they're really special people. Yeah. Were you and your sister, you know, in terms of running around and being out on thee And did you guys get into fashion together or was that really your your sort of venue for discovery. Yeah, you know, it's weird that I ended up in fashion, and I think, you know, I cared deeply about the environment. I also took as many classes as were available in my two majors in college, so I majored in in communications and journalism and uh in business and the business was just in case of journalism didn't work out. And I graduated and the food movement was really taking off. You know, you had food inc you had omnivorous dilemma and learning about where my food came from and the environment and how choosing something that's environmentally friendly can also improve your own health. It really changed my life for the better. I mean I had food issues, typical food issues of a of a girl in college, and um, I was able to shed those by learning about where my food came from. And so I thought, what about where everything else comes from? Right? Our beauty, our fashion? You know, what about how we travel? So I started learning about it and writing about it. And then I found an eco cold in two thousand thirteen, and it was about everything. It was about sustainable lifestyle, and at that point in my journey, I thought, Okay, this is how I'm going to contribute to the to the movement. I'm just going to research, share information and uh and and of course include pretty pictures. Right There's it was the heyday of blogs. Everybody was starting a blog and I thought, Okay, that's how I'm That's how I'm going to do it. And then um, not a few weeks after that, the RNA plausa garment factory collapsed in Bangladesh and that was over one thousand one garment workers died. It was horrific pictures of people mourning their loved ones in the rubble, and um, the world woke up to the fact that people make our clothes with their hands, right, think, a lot of people thought it was just machines or something, and it took off. And you know, there's a lot of amazing people speaking about food, right, there's a lot of people speaking about clean beauty. But at the time, I was one of the only people researching writing about sustainable fashion. Um, it was not sexy, God blessed. But the first editor at Refinery, Connie, He's amazing. He was like, Okay, fine, you keep pitching me, I'll let you write about it. And of course, now here we are right, like everybody is aware that this is a problem. And the more strings you pull, the more you learn. So I love it because there's always more to learn and there's always more to advocate for. And it's brought me in contact with people all of the world, all types of people, and it's really taught me lessons about life as well, because fashion is connected to everything. That's so cool. Now when you when you talk about you go col and moment that you know, it feels like such an inflection point in terms of what you're referencing, the awareness of fashion production. Um, the fact that this expression of identity is, as you say, made by someone. Every shirt was made by someone, you know, the way that it needs to be personalized, that the source feels so important. I'm I'm curious because you reference the you know, the awakening coming from food and where food comes from. And I think the parallel path of the agriculture industry and the fashion industry and the truly the frontline workers at the source of both. You know, that's that's a big system to begin analyzing as a young woman. What was it that led to that kind of awakening for you? What was it that led you to want to be an activist, to really go down the rabbit hole of of supply chain in the first place. Yeah, I mean, I think it was the same thing that made me start refusing classic bags that I was nine, where I just I don't know, I guess I was like, Okay, there's a problem here, and um, and I love researching and sharing information and I love speaking to people. That's why I'm a journalist, right, And there's just always more to learn, and some of it is really surprising and it satisfies my sense of curiosity, and because it touches so many different things, it's just it's just never boring, right. And you know, a couple of years ago, UM, I convinced my husband to quit his job and um we packed up our apartment when we traveled around the world for fourteen months. And yeah, it was absolutely incredible. And it was so much more incredible because every time I drive to a new country, somebody would reach out who is on my newsletter or followed me on Instagram at the time, and they would say like, oh my god, welcome to our city. You know, I work for a nonprofit here in Argentina and we worked with artisans using you know, alpaca and Wanaco fiber, and we would love to have you over for lunch, you know, like those sorts of connections, or please come and visit my plant dying workshop and weaving workshop outside of Omnibod in Gujarat, India, like we would love to have you. And it was such an incredible experience. And I got to do that because because fashion is you know, some people think it's just a woman's thing and it doesn't matter and it's just about looks. But it's about so much more. Right, it's about our identity, it's about it's a tool, right, it keeps us warm, it keeps us cool, and it's an economy, and it's a way to make money. It's all of these things, and so we wear it all the time, and so it's so important and it touches everything, and it's a way to reach out across the world. And you know, it's an excuse for me to reach out across the world and say, hey, person in a country I've never visited before, I want to learn about what you do. Can you tell me about what you do? That that's an incredible place to be. Yeah, it's beautiful. And when you think about, as you said, the industry, the economy, and also the legacy, you know, what an amazing thing to be able to go into a museum and and see human history through the clothes that have been preserved. You're right, so many people treat it like it's not a serious industry. But either are designers whose clothes I've been lucky enough to you know, see, or or at times like this borrow and I think about it and and I'm like, this is like wearing a building. It's architecture, it's engineering. It's at its highest I think capacity or or perhaps you know, achievable goal. It's really wearable art and what it can mean for people in terms of their expression of identity. Um, the social movements that have been tied to fashion, you know, the secret messaging that that was signified by what the suffragettes were wearing, and and what pride celebrates around the world, and how entrenched that celebration is in fashion. You know, if you think about Brazil and Carnival. I mean it really matters to people, not just for as you mentioned, form and function, but for real you know, identity, for for how we see ourselves, how we feel about ourselves. Yeah. I definitely had a day during the pandemic probably you know, three months into the original shutdown here in California, I was like, I gotta start wearing pants. I can't wear spots anymore. It's really it's doing something to my mental health. I feel. I just felt yucky, and so I started getting up and even just the act of putting on like a vintage T shirt that I love in a great pair of jeans to be in my house made me feel different. And it's such a reminder that it impacts us in greater ways than I think we we admit at times. Yeah, yeah it does. I mean, speaking of identity, I mean people people do express their identity, either a modern identity or a traditional identity through their clothing. And you know, I think that's also a really wonderful way to connect with other cultures, is to just learn about how they make the clothes and also like these different materials. You know, when the lockdown happened and everybody was switching to sweatpants, I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I bought a couple of pairs. Yeah, but I also started doing this thing where I bought I had this blue coal balt blue captain that I bought from a designer here in New York, and it's full silk. It's it's incredible, and I was like, I'm just gonna wear this every day. I love that because then I could pretend that I meant to do this, I meant to stay home and this is just how I live my life, you know, lounging in this full silk, heavy heavyweight silk captain around and it made everything a lot more bearable, and it really it kind of shifted a little bit my understanding of fashion as well, because I just it just brought me back to the reason why fashion, right, it's a tool. But also if you can reconnect with the feel of it, right, if you can choose fabrics, especially natural fabrics that just feel good, it really can make the act of choosing and wearing fashion not only feel really good, it also just makes it more sustainable because you're really you're choosing things that you love, you're you're wearing them, You're reconnecting to yourself through fashion. So those are all things that I recommend people do instead of sort of stressing out about choosing the right fabric that's certified or you know, recycled or anything, but just choosing like knowing learning about these fabrics and learning about how things are made and these different traditions and why different cultures where what they do, so that also you can avoid you know, appropriating and wearing something and not knowing where it came from and then sort of being caught out, you know, like you know, where did you get that? And you're like, I don't know, urban outfitters, But if you had learned about say the squash blossom necklace and it's important to importance to Native Americans, and you would know that, you know, you cannot get it for from a market, like they're very precious things. And so learning about these things and being curious about them is a way to give respect to fashion and give respect to its makers, give respect to yourself. I love that and the idea that we all deserve that kind of respect and that these transactions deserve to be done with respect. I'm curious about these learnings that you reference, because again, you you've become an expert, and ego called is a long standing I mean, you're you're close to being a decade into this. What are some of the things you've learned that have been the most surpris rising a fabricue, learned about a story or a tradition. What's one of those things you can share with us, Oh man um yeah, okay. So so one thing that's really fun is um So, I got to visit this brocade weaving unit in India outside of Omnibad, which is not a tourist town, and so we went out there and they have these huge looms and they've been doing it the same way since the turn of the last century. And it's a precursor to the computer because the way they do these beautiful brocade fabrics, which by the way, are so fine that they sell them to Tie Royalty for some of their fashion. So it's got this rich history of the silk road, right. It's made in India and then shipped over land to to Thailand. So the way they do these is they have these giant looms and then they have these punch cards with holes in them, and those punch cards are the signs, and they slopped them into this old wooden loom and that ends up making this brocade design and it's it's sort of it's a binary system like a computer, but it's it's physical. It was so incredible to see that and to just feel that connection to the past of fashion, where you know, cultures were trading right like they were, they were buying from each other and then recreating it or requesting tweaks, and and the idea that this kind of fabric and this fabric exactly had was now being worn in Thailand. Um, even though it's made in India. It just sort of exploded my my mind around if it's high quality and it's made with love, can really help us make these connections. Wow, that's so cool. It makes me want to go back through your website and read every article from from the year that you were traveling. What what has it been like to to run the site? You know, you said it it was the era where so many people were starting blogs and now we're in this you know new time. Tech is constantly changing, communication is changing where people source their news. What what has this journey been like to to run a media company for you? Yeah, it's been well, test up, ups and downs. But you know, I have to say that I did get sucked very far into Instagram, and um, you know, I founded the blog because I wanted to share information. Um. And I loved to write, right, and so you know, and I wanted to make a change in the industry. And then, um, of course, you know, I made a little Instagram account because they're supposed to bring traffic to the blog. And then and then along the way, I realized that I'd become an influencer, right, and I was feeling I was feeling increasingly not okay with with it because people have such short and attention spans, right, I wanted people to sit down with me and learn about these things. The way they would with an article, and it didn't feel like people were doing that right, like scroll tap tap, scroll tap tap, and I had to leave. I had to get off. I didn't like myself on social media, right, I mean, it's just people fight a lot on social media, and I was just like, this isn't my best self. This is what I came to do. I came to make a change, and I want to I want to support people the best way I know how. And so um, I took a step back from social media and I just focused on Eco Colt and you know, everybody was migrating to social media, but I realized that there was still a space for for me to answer people's questions. And so people are looking for answers to a lot of these questions, right like who are the best sustainable denim brands? Or is a fabric like Ryan Biscos biodegradable or you know, there's just questions that people have and they were finding them on ecoc cult And I realized once I just really focused on on doing that thing that like my soul work, right, you know, sharing this information instead of taking pictures in my face and putting it online, and you know, taking another picture of my face and putting online, and you know, seeking out situations that make people envious, right like, oh, here, I'm in this beautiful place. Here, I'm in this beautiful place. I realized that people really connected with that, and so traffic went up. Wait wait, wait, way up. Yeah, even after I got off of social media, which really surprised me. And so now I have a team of people who are helping me. I have contributors from all over the world. I have somebody who runs my social media for me who's absolutely wonderful. And and I'm just continuing to focus on not only ecocol but also my freelance journalism work for places like The New York Times or Vogue or Vox. And so I just get to be me, and I get a nerd out on these topics and and yeah, call up really smart people and ask some questions, which I know you like to do as well. Yes, Oh my gosh, I mean being able to do this is like heaven. And and it's funny because you know, you talked about get in a business degree as a backup for journalism, and I started laughing when you said that, because I was like, oh, I studied journalism as a backup and kids acting didn't work. It's like we all toggle what we believe is the most intense risk and then find what feels like a relative other plan. And it's and it's been so cool because I realized you run a business as a journalist, and I I use my platform as an actor to have conversations based in journalistic curiosity, and so how cool. It's like we're really nailing it. Yeah, Oh, that totally makes sense that you also learned how to tea journalism because you're so good at this. I love him, like I feel closer to you now. Um. You you mentioned something you know about the fact that you can use the website to answer people's questions to say these are the most sustainable dynam brands for example, and and so much more. There are so many people out there who want to shop more sustainably, but I can't seem in in some of the you know, writing and like you said, comments on social and stuff that I've seen so many people are frustrated because they can't seem to find steady um or affordable brands is easily. There's also I think a big misnomer that sustainable is like really crunchy and you know, not actually fashionable, which isn't true. So as an expert, how do you dispel that myth that sustainable and chic are mutually exclusive because they're not. Uh? And and what brand recommendations do you have for people listening who are newer to this kind of sustainable exploration. Yeah, so, well, first thing that I want to say is it's really important to understand that sustainability is not a binary right. So I've been trying to walk away from saying like this brand is sustainable and this brand is not sustainable because it's a continued right. You have brands are doing nothing and then you have brands that are really trying to do everything and everything in between. So I like to say, like, this brand is more sustainable than the typical brands. And yes, like there's I guess are there people who still think it's crunchy. I mean, there's so many great brands out there in every style that are just like it's streetwear and officewear and bathing suits. There's like a dozen different bathing suit brands made from a cycle fabric. I mean, you can really find almost exactly what you want. And if you can't. You can find a second hand so that's great. But I mean I can talk about a few brands that I really like. So I really like what Lanma Cartney is doing. I think you're wearing one of her pieces right now. I did. I got we because we did a video element today. I was actually really lucky and I got to borrow this unbelievable jumpsuit that she made. And I admitted this to you before we started recording. But the sort of l o l of it all is because it doesn't belong to me. It's like a foot too long. I'm too short for it. My god, I haven't rolled up around my ankles. But from the from the desk up for our for our video, it goes along with this podcast, it looks great. So I'm really I'm thrilled and I feel very special that I got to pull it for today. But it felt like the right theme, you know, for for first month and a whole conversation around sustainability at the core of all this. Yeah, and I totally feel you. I'm five ft two. I just assumed that I have to get everything shortened when I buy it. I have a whole pile of things that I bought way too optimistically in the pandemic. And when I say a whole pile, I mean like five or six things. So I bought a suit from this new brand called Another Tomorrow, and it's just power dressing, right like if you are going to run a company like this is the brand to go to. But I have to get it tailored, and so I bought it last March. I am going to get it tailored probably this month. I love that. I am ready to step out in beautiful clothing. I'm so ready. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen soon. I love that. I love that. And you mentioned I don't think a lot of people consider streetwear to be a sustainable, you know, vertical of fashion, because it's always kind of changing. It feels like something where there's a lot of turnover. But you said there's a great sustainable streetwear brand. Who's that? Oh God, you're gonna get me because I'm not. I don't personally wear a streetwear and now I have to think about um. In terms of streetwear, there's a brand called Christopher Rayburn and he does up cycled streetwear that's super cool from yeah, from materials, that otherwise would have gone to waste um and a lot of other sustainability things that he does as well. So that's a good streetwear brand that I would recommend. Okay, cool And when you talk about you actually just mentioned that you don't personally wear streetwear, but you're looking at who's doing cool things in that space and in so many other uh you know, verticals or arenas whatever we want to call them of fashion. I think it can be hard for us to figure out at times what our personal style is. I was mentioning to you earlier. I struggle with that because since I was in college, I've literally dressed up as other people for a living. So sometimes I'm looking at things and I'm thinking, well, I love that, but can I wear that? And it can really help to have, you know, a friend or you know, when I'm working and I get to work with a professional kind of way in I'm curious to know more about digital sustainable stylists. What what was your process to find one? How can other people find one? What even is a digital sustainable stylist? Oh my gosh. Yeah, So Cassandra. Cassandra did murt she is uh silas that has gone sustainable and she lost the service during the pandemic where she would do everything at home and for you like digitally. And she reached out and said, asked me if I wanted to try it. And I actually have used a stylist before, not for an event, not for like a red carpet event like you would, but just to come over and tell me what I should get rid of, because you know, when I moved here from the South, I have a lot of sun dresses. I did not own a leather jacket, and I was just like totally overwhelmed and I just needed someone to tell me what to do. So Cassandra will do this, and she's super sweet, and I ended up doing this service where you know she will just you feel out of survey. I sent her a pinchest board, I told her what I wanted, and then she picked out sustainable brands to fill some of the holes in my closet. But she'll also, I was talking about this with someone else the other night, she'll also do a closet clean out. So like you know, you can do the zoom call and train it on your closet and you can hold up all the things and and she'll she'll help you clean it out and also like tell you things like based on what you love, you know, to be like do you love it? Like yes, I love it? Okay, if you love this, you'll probably also love that. And she'll help you restyle things so you can wear them if you haven't figured out how to style them, which I really loved as well. I mean, she I think I'm wearing the scarf because she told me like I should try. She was like, you need you need something good for your zoom calls. That's like cute, that's up here, and she was like, try wrapping a scarpor on your neck and and now I'm doing it, and um, yeah. So it was a really fun process. And I think it is inherently sustainable to work with a stylist if you can afford one, and her services is more affordable than a typical stylist would be because it's digital and um and she's got all these different tiers and it's just inherently sustainable because you know, you're not going to go out and buy a bunch of stuff that doesn't look good on you and then try to make it work and then end up donating it. So it's just so much more sustainable to buy less and buy better, and the stylist can help you figure out what that better looks like for you. Yeah, I really love that there's a brand I'm I'm sure you know that I'm a big fan of and again, like not an ad, I just think they're so cool Kuana and that's their whole thing. Fewer but better and they're doing recycled cashmir now and all of this stuff that I'm just so impressed by. I get really excited about companies that are really living the ethos of reducing impact and giving us as consumers, um, you know, things that are of quality so that we keep them for longer. And I'm curious, you know, what are the when we think about the way the industry can make an impact like that, and how a lot of brands also aren't. And as you mentioned, I mean the horror that you could return something you ordered online and it's cheaper for the brand to throw it away and restock it. That that makes me itchy, like literally it makes my skin crawl. So where are we really? You know, how is the fashion industry actually doing in terms of sustainability? Is it doing well? Is it doing horribly? Like where are we now and where do you think we're heading? Oh yeah, so, oh no, you're making me nervous. No no, no, no, no, no, okay, no no no, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. So there is a couple of large brands that know this is a problem and they're they're trying to fix. Okay, So it's always like the same dozen brands, Like you have your levies, you have your H and M, Nike, Adi Das, Patagonia. You know, I Land Fisher is always in there, and sometimes Gap is in there, and they're trying to measure their footprint. They've set targets to reduce their emissions. You know, they are trying to get toxic chemicals out of their supply chain. Um. They they're part of all these initiatives. Um, so they know it's a problem. Okay. The problem though, is that it's all voluntary and you have ultra fast fashion brands coming in underneath them and undercutting them and just committing agregious labor environmental violations. I mean you have like you know, you have Boo hoo that was like paying a few dollars an hour in the UK factories And what makes me really sad, is like there's this huge fure on that, and then sales continue to go up and like we're at a moment where it's actually a really cool moment that people are like, oh, okay, like this isn't working, maybe I should be political about it. And we're seeing really cool things like there is a nonprofit named Remake by Aisha Baron Blatt, and they do such good work advocating for garment workers. I mean, when the pandemic hit and all of these huge corporate brands just turned to the factories and said, you know what, we're just not going to pay you for that order that you've already put on the ship to us, like it's made, you know, the labor went into it, the fabric went into it, and they were like we don't want it. We're just not gonna take it, and we're not gonna pay for it. And Remake came out swinging and was like, no, we are going to make life so difficult for you until you pay for those orders. Is it a long term solution. No, But they clawed back millions and millions of dollars for these garment factories, which then could pay their workers for the work that they did, and so that's great. And so they're doing work in California right now to reform the labor conditions there so that there's no wait theft and garment workers are getting paid fairly for the work that they're doing. So that is incredibly exciting. So yeah, I mean to summarize, we're at an inflection point where you know, there's a problem. We tried doing it voluntarily, it's not really working. Okay, Cool, We're going to start organizing. We're going to start getting political. We're gonna use our voices to demand change, not just by shopping, but by yeah, advocating. Yeah, it's very cool and it's cool to see the way that so many organizing groups are coming together. I have a really good friend, Ianna Elizabeth Johnson, who is a marine biologist and a climate activist, and she wrote this um. She edited this collection of essays called All We Can Save and one of the essays is the is the one that when Russell, the famous model, wrote to the producers of fashion talking about how she literally has been a vessel for fashion, but what does that mean for garment workers? And it's hands down one of the most powerful things I've read on the subject, and it just moved me so much. And to see her advocating for exactly this, you know, end of the spectrum we're discussing today alongside other scientists advocating for ocean protections, and it's it's really also interconnected. And I just find the fact that we are all able to be more and more connected to each other and to support each other's advocacy that my hope is that that means that this rising tide will lift all of our ships. Yeah, it's you know, for a long time, scientists, we're not including fashion in this conversation kind of change or out around plastic waste, and now we're starting to see that shift. And fashion should be held accountable, just like we're trying to hold the oil industry accountable, just like we're trying to hold packaging, you know, for beverages accountable. Like these are all things that fashion is connected to, and so it's not just a woman's issue for sure, and I I'm just very inspired to see where it's going if it does feel like people are doing smart and exciting things. I've actually been learning about a lot of this for the past few years from my friend Nina Farren, who founded this incredible company called fashion Kind that is all about essentially trying to make a dent in the luxury market because, you know, her, her studies in business school, examining you know, the numbers of all of this, and and and the industry of all of this really led her to see that when you can create shifts in a luxury market, you can create shifts in high story markets and and everything else. And I find that I've find the awareness of exactly where you're kind of political power can come in to be so important. And she just said, look, I want to create market shifts, and I've I've been working with her now and um I'm officially on the advisory board now. And and the idea that we can support makers, you know, the folks making these beautiful garments and bags and things around the world, you know, I mean just the artisans in Latin America alone that we're working with are are some of the most inspiring humans who have had the opportunity to you know, meet digitally. And I'm so excited about what the potential because of a piece of art there is for a new conversation. What is consumption mean? What is collecting me and what what is a living wage as you mentioned for a worker mean, because there is no way to buy an eight dollar T shirt and not have harmed someone. So how do we as customers, consumers, businesswomen, how do we learn to create better impact? So I'm just really excited about the potential you know, in the industry. I'm curious where you think it's going. You know, what do you think are the biggest issues or or challenges in the industry right now? And where do you think the solutions come from? Yeah, so I think, Um, well, if I may, I want to go back to what you just said about luxury faction and the power it can have, because you know, I think everybody should add access to fashion that they can afford it. So there, I think there's definitely a place for mass market fashion that is made more sustainably, but also there's always there, always has to be a place for luxury fashion because that is the kind of fashion, like you said, that supports the ability of an artisan to sit and make a high quality product in the way her culture has always made that product right at a seticand loom. Thank you so much, Yes, thank you for pointing that out because really, I have to admit, when I first met with Nina to talk about this, I was a little turned off by the notion of luxury. I thought, we're talking about how we need to democratize the world and make things more accessible and make you know, make it more fair. And then I realized the idea that less expensive is fair comes at the very human cost of the underpaid worker in a sweatshop, the person who dies in a collapsing factory in in Bangladesh. And and I I agree with you that we need to figure out how to bring accessibility much more mass market, but do it in a way that supports the workers on the other end. And so the data really pointed me too. If you want to learn about this in a real big way, start here. And I'm really I'm honored that I was given the space to begin learning about this stuff. So I I I appreciate you, you know, pointing out the reality that living wages matter and in ways that sometimes we don't connect the idea of of living wages too. You know, we don't think about that when we buy a T shirt, but we should. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, And to your question about you know, where the industry is going well, some of the biggest problems that we're seeing right now. I mean, there's so many different things, but the biggest problems right is there's the climate crisis. Um fashion is responsible for anywhere from five four or five eight percent of global carbon emissions according to varying estimates, and that's that's a big choke that we could address. Whether with the fashion it's responsible for four percent of global fashion waste. I mean New Yorkers alone, in New York City, average New Yorker throws out fifty four pounds of textile waste every year, and in New York State as a whole, we're throwing out the equivalent of two million dollars worth of fashions like clothing, accessories. Yeah, every year. If we just recovered it, if we could just like recover it, it would be worth that much. But it's too complicated and expensive, you know. So fashion waste is a huge problem. But there's glimmers of hope, right. I Mean, somebody was telling me about how Frances instituted this thing where you can't burn your fashion anymore. Right, So a lot of fashion brands were doing this thing where if they didn't sell their merch for one year, they would destroy it. They would burn it or shredded or whatever, perfectly fine stuff because they didn't want it to you know, end up secondhand, like second you know, on the wrong person. Right. So Frances like, you can't do that anymore. And so somebody was telling me that that act has revved up certain parts of Italy because the fashion brands are now going, okay, we can't burn it. Here are like traditional artisans who work with leather and recycle and can recycle will like, can you take this merchandise apart and make something new and fresh with it for the next season? That stuff would have been destroyed and now it's providing employment to people. It's being used again like before it was just so wasteful, and like just that little tweak has created a whole new, more sustainable industry and I would love to see that everywhere. That's I mean, that's something that really got me excited to hear about. That is so so cool. What that feels like, such an achievement, that's a big globally impactful win. What what do you when when you take the idea of impactful winds into the personal, into the singular moving forward, what do you most want to achieve with Eco call Oh, that's such a good question. So I'm very concerned with being accurate. And so right now we're going through the process of just going through our entire back catalog of articles, which still get a ton of traffic. And I don't know of a websites do this, but I hired a fact checker and I've just been sending her a couple of these articles every month and saying like, can you go through them and just make sure they're accurate? And so that's really exciting because I'm learning from her. She's going through and I'm adding to my knowledge, and then we're making sure that everything we put out is incredibly accurate. And so it's helpful for you know, it's helpful for consumers, of course, but like also what I where I really want to go is I want the industry to be able to turn to Eco Cole and know that they can get an answer to their questions. So like if there's a designer at Caring or you know, like a Gucci, or there's a designer at any of these companies that are like, hey, maybe we should think about going more sustainable, they can literally google the answer and they'll be able to find it. And the idea that this work can have ripple effects across the industry and you know, reach people who are are pulling the levers in that way. Like that feels really really good to me because you know, before it was about like, oh, if I just convinced everybody to shop more sustainably, like that will be the way I have an impact. And now I'm like, no, I want to talk to the people who who are who have this power to to make these changes and give them the information they need to do the right thing. I love that, And it just feels like it's all such positive energy toward progress. Yeah, exactly, yes, And that's really you know, that's the theme of this show, of these conversations, and and it feels like the most perfect segue to ask you my favorite question to ask everyone who comes on the show, which is, you know, whether it be something that is personal or professional or or falls somewhere in between, what feels like work in progress in your life right now? Yeah? So, um, I'm still kind of addicted to my phone. Um, And I know that it's like a common answer, but I have been trying so hard during this pandemic to do everything I can to just start my day off analog right, like the journal, I meditate, I do yoga, but I still wander out. I have I keep my phone outside of the bedroom, and I still wander out after I've said the very demanding cat at six thirty in the morning, and I still wander out, and I pick up my phone and I sit down and I check the email. And why am I still doing this? Like It's the habit that bothers me the most right now. So that is something that I'm still working on about, you know, pulling back a little bit further and being alone with my thoughts instead of giving into that dopeyman hit every morning like what email did I get? You know, like what newsletters? And I like who liked my things? Like who commented? You know, I'd rather just sit with my journal and write. You know. Yeah, I think that that's really such a good goal. And you've given us so many great resources that I'll give you one. I started reading this fantastic book called How to Break Up with Your Phone. It's, i mean, smaller than this journal. It's a quick read. The irony being that it started to make me feel so panicky about the changes I'd have to make that I only got through the first half of it. Um, So I've committed to myself that now that I'm home from shooting, I'm going to start over from the beginning and read it until the end. Um. So maybe we can book club that and and see what kind of change we can make. Yeah, I would love that. I mean, thank you for the recommendation. It's exactly what I need right now, you know, it's really excellent. Well all, then, thank you so much. This has been so just phenomenal and and I must admit that getting into, you know, a conversation about a massive polluter industry, I was a little nervous about how dire it was going to feel by the end, and you've really inspired me to feel hopeful and to remember that, you know, there's a lot that we can do and innovate and and a lot of change we can make. So I'm very grateful for that. Sophia, thank you so much for having me. It was well get to talk with you, and I can't help but be hopeful when you know someone like you is is curious about this and wanting to share the message with everyone. I mean it's great to know that like this is important to people like yourself, and you're willing to um yeah share that with your audience as well. Thanks, I mean lut