When a “hall pass” just isn’t enough… would you try an open marriage?? Jana sits down with sex therapist Dr. Tammy Nelson for an honest conversation about what an open marriage actually is, and how we define cheating in 2023.
Jana discovers why open marriages skyrocketed during the pandemic, and the answer will shock you.
And, Dr. Nelson reveals lessons we can learn from open marriages that can help strengthen traditional relationships.
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast Thursday Therapy. Welcome, I'm gonna do my It's Thursday therapy. I got like anxiety when you said that. I was like, are we having a therapy session every Thursday? Oh my god, this is happening. Okay. So road rage, Okay, do you have it? Not? Really? No, it's fascinating to me people that have road rage. It really is. I mean, like I got frustrated on the way here because they were going slow, but like, no, I typically don't. That's fine, You're like, okay, come on, dude, Like I don't like it when a person drives the exact speed limit. Don't do that or slower because if you're going if the speed limits forty, and then that means then I'm really we're only going like eight and that's just not acceptable. Oh I just just cool a little, like you don't know, you don't, because then usually you're gonna fall below the speed limit. Right, if you're a forty at the dots be limit person, you're gonna spat up a couple. Just speed up just a little bit, yeah, just a little bit. But like sure that bothers me. So I I'm new to the freeway right freeway driving, I accidentally and mind you, it was not a massive cut off at all, like I've been where my little triangle light thing wasn't even on to show that the car was close to me. This big old, massive truck. Let me just preface it with that. So I'm moving over into the fast lane and so again he's he's behind me, not speeding up, not anything. But the second that I move to the left, you've got a little closer. But again the little light thing still wasn't on. So I go left. It's like I ruined his entire day. She's gets so he speeds up so sped up so fast to the back of my jeep and then starts swerving his big truck like side to side, and I'm like, what what did I How did I possibly just ruined your your day? Like that just be and I didn't even cut you off. Yeah, my light was not I'm gonna keep going back to that. That's a kind of my light was on my little side whatever. But so it's just and then I think back to men that I've dated that have had the worst road rage, and I'm like, it's a guy thing. It's like I really think it is. It's a guy thing. It's just like wild to me because I'm like, why do you let them affect you that bad? And that's my thing. I'm like, yeah, I might get a little frustrated, but for to actually ruin my couple of minutes after that, I just I don't understand it. And also it's slightly terrifying because you never know who's like, oh yeah, I used to get into it with one of my access because he would do the big truck move and I'm like, this person could have a gun, could get out of the car. I'm like, it does It's not that big of a deal. So, yeah, they cut you off lumber. Yeah you didn't get a wreck. But I will say I agree with you on the Slow Show you have to go somewhere. But then that's when I was going back to I go, uh, there's God's in a roadblock in my in my way for a reason. There's always like I wasn't supposed to be there at this time. It sucks because I hate to be late. That's the only time because I just don't like to be late. Yeah, I know me neither. Thursday Therapy Thursday Therapy wind Down Edition. I think it's interesting because a lot of people that listen to the show, it's fun to do the whole um pop culture chat, have some amazing guests come on. But I want to dive deeper on Thursday episodes with certain topics because there's a lot of people that listen to the show for some of the therapy stuff and they want to and might not have the means or the capability to be able to go to therapy. And so we're going to get some amazing therapist experts on the show for Thursdays to dive into different topics that can be helpful for everyone, not just my life, but for other people that might be dealing with things that and they can't get to a therapy. I love that it's a great idea, and because we've been so open about therapy, might as well do a therapy Thursday. Uh, And we are going to have. Her name is Dr Tammy Nelson, So she's a PhD. She's a sex in a Relationship expert. She's a speaker, author, licensed psychotherapist UM thirty years of experience. She's works with couples, individuals, and she says open relationships have soared since the pandemic, with a forty five percent increase in inquiries about discussing the subject with partners in the last three months. So she's done. Like Ted talks about some of this stuff, and it's interesting because one of our things too, she says. Um seventy of those in open relationships said that they were somewhat or very fulfilled, compared to twent in closed relationships. Among those who are not yet an open relationships, seventy people in monogamous relationships want to introduce some for of nonmonogamy. They just aren't sure how to start the conversation. Couples are more interested in spicing things up a bit, says Dr Nelson, So we're gonna have run. Wow. She's got a book too, by the way, Open Monogamy, a Guide to co creating your Ideal relationship Agreement Book. Hi Tammy, Hi, how are you welcome to therapy Thursday? How you doing? I'm great? How are you? I'm good? I'm good. I really wish Kristen was here at this for this conversation too, because I'm so excited to dive into this, I guess conversation about what I think couples are maybe too afraid to say that they want in a relationship because from just reading some of the percentages about how you said that seven you say sent of these are open, said that they, you know, were more fully uh businically happier than being in a closed relationship. And I just I personally, I don't know if you don't know my background at all, but I would have a very hard time having an open relationship and for me, But I'm just curious, like since the pandemic, Like, why do you think since the pandemic? Well, I think a few things. One is that, um, you know, people, especially young people and I don't know how old you guys are, but your young nearing forties, okay, perfect, you're in that sweet spot. I think that people spent a lot of time um together in a in a very small, um contracted environment where they were overly responsible for family, they were working from home, there were lot of stressors and um concerned about uh extended family and not a lot of community. And so two things happen. One people realized my partner can't be everything to me, and two they joined me crazy. And the other piece is that a lot of people found that you know, maybe living in a village is not a bad idea, Like maybe we get outsourced someone to go search for search and hunt for toilet paper, and maybe we get outsource someone for even for our sexual needs. Maybe we could outsourced someone who's going to stay home and and homeschool the kids because that's not my thing. Maybe we could homeschool um kids and I can go back to work, you know, like maybe it takes more than just the two of us, Like maybe we need more resources. Because you couldn't bring in your family, your parents because you were afraid to get them sick. You didn't have preschool or um any kind of after school activities to support you. You didn't have work to go to, so you didn't have a community at work. There really was this sort of awakening like wow, it's not good to be isolated, and maybe we need to go back to sort of this tribal idea of everybody working together to make things easier. So are you talking polygamy then no, Polygamy means being married to more than one person, because when I hear what I like, I like to have a person like you knowing not just about sexual Yeah, it's just about having someone help well the other ways was you know, is a legal term. It means being married to more than one person, just like monogamy means being married to one person. And you know, we use monogamy interchangeably with sexual fidelity, which will do today just for the sake of simplicity. But polygamy was traditionally about men having a bunch of wives. It wasn't about wo men having a bunch of husband It was really working or you know, for men. And a lot has changed over the past century. You know when we talk about monogamy today and um, this sort of flexible, fluid definition of monogamy um for this newer generation. I mean, this is not your grandmother's monogamy. This is women being the gatekeepers of how they want their partnerships to be. Whether it's they want traditional monogamy like the grandmother had, or they want which is I doubt exactly the way your grandmother had to or they want a much more open potential of romantic and sexual relationships with other people, but they want a primary partner at home. We get to choose. Now, this is the first time in history, like women get to make that choice. It's all different. Now, are you married yeah, do you can mask it? Do you have another marriage? Well, we have a very flexible and fluid agreement that if we want to do something, we would talk, talk about it and make decisions together. And I think, um, you know, unfortunately I'm really really busy, so I don't know if I get to take advantage of that potential agreement. UM. I think the fantasy of the freedom of that makes the um makes the relationship much more um, much more safe. Like it's kind of like if you know you can have freedom to do what you want because you're you know, your relationship is super solid and it brings like a different level of trust and and connection. So here's my question around that, because to me, I'm like, I've always equated sex with love, love with sex. It's changed now through you know, doing some work in therapy and all those things. So I kind of thinking of it now it's like, well, why why do how does this this? Like why like why go somewhere else for sex? Like like what is what is really truely? Oh, you just want to be able to see someone else, Like shouldn't there just be I don't know. I guess I just struggle with the fact of them wanting to go somewhere else to have sex outside the marriage. It's like the marriage is so much more than just sex and and and I don't know is that like does that make I agree? It's hard for me to wrap my head around that concept as well. Well. I think a couple of things that you said, you know, there's a should or shouldn't, and then there's them wanting to. What if it's you, you know, like you don't want to, and that's fine for you. That's a decision that you make and you're gonna want to be with someone who probably feels the same way. But there's a lot of people out there that I don't feel like that's what should or shouldn't happen. They might feel differently, and so for them is different, you know. Like I work with a lot of couples who have there's a wide range of monogamy. I call it the monogamy continuum. And for them, I helped them talk about the monogamy gap, like does one of them want a little bit more fluidity or more openness than the other one, Like that's the problem. It's not that they should or shouldn't, or they want or they don't. I find that people have all kinds of ranges of what they want or don't want. Like one might say I want an open relationship and the other one says, I don't want that at all. But then when you ask them what does that mean, they might mean like, I don't know, I just want to have like a threesome someday. That's my fantasy. But one's like, oh, well, that's not what I thought. I thought you meant like you were going to go off and fall in love with other people, And that person is like, god, no, I would never want that. You know, Like we have this black and white idea of what these things mean, but it's very nuanced and subtle for actually the actual people that are thinking about it. You know, it's ideas to communicate about it and try to have an open conversation and then if it does happen though, because I think we've had we've had a few people on right cat were the conversations where you know, um, they were both kind of allowed to but then when he did or it wasn't, they changed their mind. They changed their mind later because I feel like that trust peace or the insecurity piece comes in and then now you have a whole other can of worms that you now have to work on within your marriage, and that bomb that you have as a husband and wife has now just been um, you know, hurt because there's now this other person that came into the marriage and now you're having to deal with trust issues and insecurities and it's like is that worth that potential outcome? Well, you know, monogamy is no longer defined by morality, it's defined by um honesty. So the problem was not that they opened their marth. The problem was that they weren't honest about something. You can somebody else can ruin your marriage, whether you're open or closed, or you're you know, pretend monogamous or not. Like the amount of affairs today, there's seventy million people on Ashley Madison, which is a million seventy million worldwide, and there's a lot of people that are cheating. So if you think that you know that everybody really who's married is monogamous, like that's a lie. They're not monogamous, they're non consensually non monogamous. They're pretending they're monogamous. So the problem is not that you know, somebody else comes into your marriage and ruins it The problem is that people are not honest about what they're doing. So the majority of people that are having successful open relationships, I don't see them, right, It's like a it's like a self selected population. They don't come to therapy because it's working for them. So I don't see those people. I might set the people that you're talking about. Where something happens it does work, it's usually because they broke their monogamy agreement. They had an agreement somebody. You know, you can still cheat in an open relationship. You know, somebody did not follow the agreement that they made, And that's really the problem. It's the you know, you said you were going to do this and you didn't, or so how do you come back from that? Like, what do you do then to come back from that place? I don't know if there's coming back ever. I don't think ever come back after an affair or a trust breach or whatever you want to call it depends on what it is. Um there's no going back. I mean, I think if you try to go back, starting to end up here again, I think you can make a choice. Depending like there's a lot of reasons that people cheat, but depending on whether this is a can opener, you know, you cheated because you want out, or it's um a wake up call, like, oh my god, I can't believe this happen, and we gotta like think about what we're gonna do here, or how this, how this is affecting us. Like sometimes it's UM, maybe the best thing that could have happened, because now we've got to really look at what were we thinking. Or maybe it's UM a way to steer us in a different direction, you know, So depending on what it is, you have to sort of draw a line in the sand and say, Okay, whatever vision we had of what our relationship was, it's not what really was going on. And so now we can decide do we want a different relationship going forward. If we do, we can have it with each other, but we're going to have to have a whole new agreement and a whole new conversation about what our monogamy is gonna look like. So we had friends and I won't go into it deeper, that kind of had that situation Janna that I don't know if they considered UM, I guess it was considered open, but then there was not honesty, and what would be considered a cheating situation, Shin, and it was that's they basically had to go back and you know, rediscover what they wanted to make their marriage. They are still married and they stayed married, but they changed a lot of things about that. I don't think that they're still participating in that situation. I think they decided that that wasn't something that worked for them once they went past those boundaries. But I do think it's I mean, I think it's possible when people change their mind and you know, or something didn't work for them or whatever. But like you said, it was the lack of honesty at the end of the day that got them to that point. Yeah, I think I think the honesty is the I mean, it's the distrust is the killer. That's which killed my marriage for sure. It's like, just be honest, I don't want to discover, like you know, let's remember begging, like just tell me, like so I can just I just can know, or and like and then like we can we can work on this. It's but the dis honesty that's I mean, that's that's the that's the killer. And you're right, you don't you don't come back from that you've got to either go, okay, that we're going to make a new marriage and this is new boundaries and a new a new vowsheet what we will and we won't do, or you go your separate ways. But yeah, it's it's a it's a whole new world out there. I mean, that's it's a hard one to wrap around me. You're right, we're used to kind of like the black and white situation, and it's you know, this situation is not that well. And you know there's an assumption I think that when you get married or you have a committed partnership that you know saying once I do and I promise I'll never cheat on you, it was gonna last for the rest of your life. Like we live a long time. You know, we're supposed to be together ten, fifty, sixty, sometimes seventy years together. And if you don't revisit what that means, often you're gonna go through a lot of eases in your life. You're different at forty than you were at five, totally different at fifty, and totally different at sixty. And you know that's like kind of like saying, well, I told you I loved you when I married you, so I'll let you know if I change my mind. You know, like you have to revisit the whole idea of what it means to be together and what it means to stay sexy, and what it means to keep your relationship alive, and what it means to be honest. You know. Are we supposed to tell each other every time we masturbate in the shower or every time we have a fantasy of someone else? Like, what does it mean to cheat? And maybe that conversation will change? Maybe you don't want to know. Maybe it's too much honesty, you know, but to really be explicit about that? Could she wait? Are you saying that cheating could be if someone masturbates and has a fantasy, sometimes people feel really betrayed. Really, I would not want to know. I don't want to want to know what I'm thinking about feeling very I think I if my last for sure, but any time before that or after, I wouldn't have I don't want to I don't want to know. Lily thinking about like, just I'm gonna pretend that you think it's me and real cute little ni tights and whatever. Well, let me ask you a question. Would you feel like they were cheating if you walked in and they were masturbating and looking at porn. So porn is interesting for me just because of my past relationship and because I know what what kind of led to the eventual addiction. I think with my with my ex. So I think when you it's a slippery slope when people watch porn because you're getting this insane fix watching these two couples or three couples or a girl sucked the dick or whatever it is that it then you become almost numb to the porn. So then you now want it in person, or you want it, you want that to happen in real time to you. And so I think, and that's the experience that I've had with um a partner, And so I think, you know, my new relationship, I mean, you know, we haven't obviously discussed that, but I mean I don't. I almost don't want to, just because I just want to kind of put the blinders on right now since it's a new relationship. I mean, I love it, but I think it would definitely offend me more if I knew he was thinking about that would seem more personal. Yeah, him thinking about another woman that I might know or that whatever versus. Even though I still don't love the porn thing, I wouldn't feel as much like it was like a cheating situation than like thinking about like the friend I have down the ship. I mean, they have porn videos and I v F things. I mean, guys, need you know what I mean? Like that either walking into these rooms and watching these vhs of porn, like, well, your wife is waiting for you to get the sperm out, you know, so it's like, you know, I don't know, I just give you a video. But yes, so I see what you're saying, what you're asking for. Sure, I definitely say two. And that's something that I haven't I guess I haven't really thought about. But yeah, with my ex, for sure, that would have like sent me through the roof. But now I don't know. I haven't, I haven't been happen and I haven't had to touch that, and I don't I never had a problem with it before. I'll say that. Sure, I mean, there's no right answer. You know, it's really about the two of you. Like I don't have any judgment about anyone's monogamy, but I do think that the important thing is to make it explicit so that you don't walk in on him, and because you've never talked about it before, you know, say you're still together for five years from now. I hope you are, if this is the one for you. But you walk in on him five years from now and he's master being to porn and you go, oh my god, you're cheating on me. And he says, what are you talking about. I've been doing this since I was ten, Like, this has nothing to do with you. Like that's where the betrayal comes from. When you have these implicit assumptions about what monog can me. It is supposed to be like for you, maybe I'm just making this stop for you, maybe cheating, and for him, and he's like, this is me, this is my private sexual stuff. It has nothing to do with you. So it's really more about the conversation than it is about like what is cheating and what isn't? Because I'm not the I'm not the arbitr of cheating, But I'm more interested in helping you to have the conversation of like, is it cheating if you send pictures of yourself to your ex? Is it cheating? If you post pictures of yourself in a bathing suit on TikTok? Is it cheating if you you know, friend someone on Facebook? Although you guys probably don't use Facebook anymore, but you know, like what is these days you have to talk about those things? You know, when when I first got married to my first husband, that wasn't even a thing, like you never talked about that. Today cheating is like it's so much more complex, so much more of a conversation that you have to have. See, I think I definitely think texting someone inappropriately emotionally or whatever, that to me is cheating. Now a lot of people won't think that's cheating because it's not physical. You tried to nail in my brain for years, like Janna, that's still wrong. I'm like, well, it was just like a well, and it's like she's saying, it's you have to have a conversation on whether you think that you know, And I think back to the days when I was reaching out while I was still in a relationship with guys and reaching out to other people to try to get validation, and that's it's still crossing a boundary. It's still a line that you shouldn't cross. And I you know, I definitely was wrong in those situations too in my past, so I can see I can see it and go okay, now moving forward, like yeah, hey, like no sliding into d M s or texting women that you don't really need to be texting. You know What's so that would that would that would be a huge one for me in moving forward and maybe having the conversation versus That's an expectation I think we would a lot of us would have, right, But I think, but we need to make sure that he feels the same way right and anyone right, because I mean, would she'd be so pissed if you wanted to nixt d ms and saw like him chatting though yeah, yeah, and we yes, I mean we've recently had a lot of conversations and we've been married for fifteen years, but about what is acceptable for each other. But that's something we never talked about really before. Interesting because it's like I had some assumptions of things that he did or didn't do that he was like, what are you talking about? I don't you guys also got married so young, Like she was saying, like, you got married when you were twenty three years old and I was like, well, I just kind of assumed that, and he was like, no, like what you know, And so we've had a lot of conversations around that. So it's interesting because you just I mean, there's things that I assumed he did, he doesn't do, There's things you know. It's just like a lot of Yeah. So it's just like having those conversations and being like, just so we're clear though I'm not comfortable with this. That's good though, that's conversation. Yeah. And in your book, I mean, what is for our listeners that are you know listening right now? What is something is? It's a it's a basically create co creating your ideal relationship agreement. So it's a guide. So are you basically walking through saying like, hey, this is what this this looks like, this is what this could look like, or how like what kind of guide are we talking about here? Yeah, I mean it's really for anyone to just start the conversation like you were saying, you know, even after fifteen years of marriage, like wait a minute, where are we do you start the conversation with? Um, hey, do we tell each other every time we have a what else? Or is that like no, I don't want to know do we tell each other about you know, poor do we Is it okay that I'm texting my ex? You know, it's about opening that dialogue. And then what if we want to have a threesome with someone, And what if we want to go to a party and flirt with other people? And what if I'm dancing with somebody else? Like all the way across the continuum to you know, people who do want to have a more open relationship. What if they want to go to a sex party. What if they want to have sex with other people when they're on vacation, but no, you know, no penetration. What if you know, you can get really granular to all the way to people who want to be polyamorous and say, you know what, just because I'm married, I'm not dead. I'm going to fall in love with someone else, but I don't ever want to lose you as my primary partner. I think there are people who feel that they can do that and that they can stay central in their marriage or in their primary central relationship. And you know, like we said, you know you can have betrayal in any of those areas. And so the reeman, the guide is a way to have those conversations and also, like we said, to have maybe a veto power, like like when do I get to say this is not okay, we need to take a break, or we need to like chill out. I don't like this person, or right, I don't like this text, or you know, how do you have the really tough conversations to make your relationship last and to keep it sexy and alive, so you're not just the person that's always shutting everything down, like you can't talk to them and I don't like they did, Like that's not gonna work forever. You want to keep things open and juicy and alive, even if it's just a fantasy and you never do anything. Sometimes that's more than enough. You just talk about stuff that can kind of be exciting, never doing anything, um but knowing that your partner is open to the ideas, and maybe that's all you need, right I kind of I look at you know, with relationships, the relationships moving forward, it's if there's something that you might think that I won't like, then don't do it, you know, if you have to, if you have to question, but also talk to me like that's like you said, like you gotta if you don't know, communicate because I think that's Um, yeah, I just I would love to be respected in a relationship when I'm not there, like to me and you might not know how to respect me. So you have to have that conversation with your partner to say this is what respect looks like for me and for us. Yeah, yeah, you would. You know you want honesty, you know. Sometimes not talking about things can make it feel like people are keeping secrets. Yeah, and it feels like something's wrong, like why didn't you tell me you talk to your ex when you were visiting your Then I could feel like, Okay, now something's going on, when really it might feel like yeah, but I knew it would bother you, so I didn't tell you as protecting you, you know. So there's a whole kind What does honesty really mean? And how honest do you really want me to be with you? And what is it to show respect? Like you said? Well, thank you Dr Tammy Nelson for coming on the show. Everyone get her new book Open Monogamy a Guy to co creating your ideal relationship Agreement. Um, thank you so much, appreciate you, Thank you guys, and good luck in your relationships with you. Ever have any questions, you can email me. I'll happy to help you. Okay, thank you? Uh could you do it? I mean she had me at the beginning though, when she talked about the different like the whole tribe helping you, like raise your kids and stuff. Yeah, I love a sister wife, thank you, just like I just want them sleeping with my man like I would. I would love a tribe of of of that. But yeah, just just like us all helping out with each other, but not sexually. But I do think there is a world though, where you can What I love about that entire thing is just about the honesty piece. If people were honest. The fact there's seventy million people on Ashley Madison blows my mind. Yeah, and that's the part that's sad because it's never about the affair. It's always about the lie. And that was something that you know, my therapist in l A, a couple of syrapists always said it's always about the deceit, that it's never about the act itself. And so if you're open and you're honest and you have those communications or if you have that communication with each other, like who knows maybe it could work and maybe you could have the most beautiful relationship ever. And yeah, you guys both get to have a hall pass once a year. I don't know, and never maybe maybe you never tell each other because it's just like that might be two people's fantasies that end up together, right, just like that's not going to be like my fantasy was a bubble bath, and like you know, like that's where I'm at right now. But I don't know. Maybe it's going to change. And if it does change, and then I'm gonna talk to whoever I'm with, Yeah, and they'd be like, hey, this is kind of hot, Yeah, kind of like this come home from work. You know. Maybe I don't know, Like who knows. But if if, if it's like we change, you change just like you and you have, like you change, you evolved. You have to communicate that change and what your needs with your partner. Yeah. Absolutely, I still think that there are some vowels that have that are taken in a marriage. And that's the hard part that makes me sadly. Maybe it's like my old school like even in old school, she's been married. But you know what I'm saying, Like it is I will say unfortunately but kind of unfortunately in my view, a little bit of an older school way of thinking, and I do hate to see that go. Um. I thought about that a lot while she was talking. I'm very open to hearing everything she has to say. Um, but it does kind of make me sad because I think there are vowels for a marriage, you know, for a reason too. It doesn't mean it can't work for some people, I guess too, you know, if that sit there on the same page. But I mean, my grandma and grandpa were married for seventy years and to the day, I mean to the day my grandmas and my grandpa dad obviously last year, and my grandma she has this guy on the lake that wants to take her on a date, and she's just like, I've only dated your grandpa, Like I'm not gonna and it's like I believe in that kind of love. I just do. I haven't. I didn't find it for a long time, but I believe I want that kind of love, you know. I want that we're gonna do this together. But I know this day and age things are different, and I here's what I want. I don't want my man on Actuley Madison. Whoever I end up with, I do not want him on actually mess and I'd rather him talk to me about what he's struggling with. So we can I can spice it up or do something. Yeah, before they go that route, have a conversation and maybe there is a change in feelings and maybe we could do this to spice it up. I mean, look what it He didn't take an affair in y'all's marriage, but it took some hard communication and separation and and now you guys are better than ever. So it's like sometimes having those discussions can strengthen marriage and relationships. So there's things that can spice it up that you don't have to go. I mean, you know, I don't know if, but teach their own just therapy there so the therapy same by