Wine Down with Janna Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast. All Right, it's your Wine about It Thursday Therapy episode. I am really excited to have Terry Cole on. She's a licensed psychotherapist, global relationship and empowerment expert, and the author of Boundary Boss, which we're gonna be talking about today. It's the essential guy to talk true, be seen, and finally live free. She's worked with many clients from stay at home moms to celebrities and Fortune five hundred CEOs, and so let's get her on to talk about her book. Hey, Terry people, how are you, Terry. I'm Janna Yan Janna. How are you doing? You know what I'm doing pretty good? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I feel I'm feeling good. I had therapy yesterday, so I'm feeling you know, centered, and but you know, they still have things to work on, right like we all do life life exactly. But I mean, I'm excited to talk to you. Your book sounds amazing and it's I saw a little thing from it. So this book is for women who are exhausted from overgiving, overdoing, and even over feeling if you're getting it all done at the expense of yourself, give yourself the gift of boundary boss. And if you could, like, what is a boundary boss to you? It's someone who knows themselves. You know your preferences, your limits, your deal breakers, you have the ability to share them readily with the people in your life. Really, being a boundary boss means living a self determined life because you're not spending all your time people pleasing and self abandoning. Right. It's interesting though, I've so I'm kind of how do I say I've I've been a people pleaser. I'm going on the opposite. I'm learning to not just people please and I'm learning to have better boundaries. But it's interesting. I had I kind of ran into a little bit of a situation the other day where someone had texted me something and I'm like, normally and I did even in that moment, I laughed, I go hah, even though I didn't think it was funny, and I kind of wish this person wouldn't text me that, right, So, trying to do better in my work, I'm like, I'm going to set a boundary to hey, don't please don't. I don't need to have these text message being sent to me right, So I said, hey, for the future, I would appreciate it if you don't send these kind of text messages as I just don't like, I'm in a different place in my life and I don't really care about this message and so I would just appreciate that moving forward. But their response was wow, like wow, just trying to be respectful, and I'm like, and I go, my tone was not a great I'm just simply saying but I'm like. I then felt like I had to defend myself for my boundary and that's where I was like, and so I did because I wanted them to know, because I know text is so hard right with tone. So then I said, I think you're mister understanding my text tone. I also just need to express to you that I don't want to get these messages anymore, and that's okay for me to ask that. But then I felt guilty and then I was like, oh, shoot, should I call this person and be like, hey, sorry, But I'm like, no, I'm not sorry. I said what I needed you took it as offensive. So now I'm kind of like, what do I do. Well. Part of it is you're not that fragile, so you being uncomfortable for a little, It is okay because you're doing something new. This will become if you keep going, Jenna, this will become your new normal. And we can care that someone else didn't like, love our boundary and lovingly hold on to our boundary. Right, You weren't making that person wrong. He didn't say you're a jerk for sending it to me. You basically said I would not like to receive these going forward, and lang could help you know, I like to. I have a lot of them sentenced stem sort of starters of And even in that situation, let's just say, if we had a redo, you could type I'd like to make a simple request that in the future you leave me off of this type of text forward or whatever the person was doing like this, I'd appreciate. Thank you, right, thank you, I appreciate that. So I also assume that people are going to do it I want them to do when I've set a boundary, So thank you for respecting my boundary. So what we're setting them up a by calling it a simple request, because here's the truth, everything we ask from anyone is a simple request. That doesn't mean they're going to do it, but certainly, it's not complicated for that person to stop sending you text messages right right now, it's simple right now. But then now they think I'm being aggressive. Here's the thing though, what they think is their side of the street. Oh it's so hard for me because I want to say, like, that's my tone. Wasn't like that, Like I don't like that's where my work is still getting there. But also, let yourself be uncomfortable. Have compassion for the fact that you did something that felt scary. You did a brave thing that you know is aligned with better mental health for you, which is why you did it, And give yourself credit for that, and let yourself feel a little uncomfortable. Here's the thing. We hate to feel misunderstood, right, we hate to feel that someone is misconstruing. But here's what really matters is what your intention was, which was to set up a limit with this person that you are asking them not to cross by don't text me those things in the future. That's your right. You could go be totally agro and like completely block them, like you know that there's you're not being extreme right in what you said or what you did, but your desire to control their feelings. Right. This really goes this is you know, disordered emotional boundaries, but it goes into codependency. Right. There's a certain amount of codependency that comes when you think about, like what is codependency? Right? We hear all about it, but does anyone really understand is that you're just wanting the other person to be happy above your own happiness. Listen, that's a simple way of putting it. But it's more than that, right, Right, Because if I were to describe it, I would say my definition of codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the decisions, the circumstances of the people in our life, to the detriment of our own internal peace, or to the detriment to our mental wellness, our financial wellbeing, our physical wellbeing. Right. Because maybe you're giving somebody money or whatever it is, and what is at the base the basement of that, The foundation of that is disordered boundaries. Because we are unclear where we end and that person begins. We feel overly responsible for their feeling, We feel overly responsible for what we think they're thinking. Right, we want to change it. But again, at the base of this is a covert or overt bid or desire to control the other person, and sometimes we just have to go it's okay. If they misunderstand me, it's okay. You don't want to have to justify the crap out of your no or out of your request, or out of anything, because it is your right to have your text message space be a sacred place for you. Right. You want to protect yourself and whatever that thing was that you didn't like, that's your right. And if people are going to get offended, and they will at times, especially if this is new behavior, and especially if these are established or older relationships. So when we think about starting to have better boundaries in life, communicating more effectively the people that it can be the most challenging with our family of origin because when you think about what are boundaries, what are relational stuff, It's they're like dances, right, It's like I do this, you do that, you do that, I do this. It's like a well sort of orchestrated and understood way of behaving. When we change that dance, the people we've been dancing with the longest, obviously they're going to notice that you're changing your steps, and that's okay. They feel threatened. The reason why people get offended. Part of it is ego, of course, but a lot of times when we're starting to change and you or do something different or establish new boundaries, people are afraid that we're going to change so much that we no longer want them in our life, or that they'll lose us in some way. They may not be conscious of this, but I can tell you being a therapist for twenty five years, this fear is real. And so it's not just their desire to sort of control you or make you admit that you were wrong. It's a fear that this is like a new interaction in this relationship. We don't normally interact this way, and it's scaring me. So I always say, listen, we can set boundaries with kindness, with love. We can set boundaries with more heat when we need to right if it's like Bob from Accounting, who's being inappropriate, Like a little heat might be good, but that's on us. And I think a lot of the myths around healthy boundaries is that if you have them, year a bit. If you have them, you're rejecting people left and right, or verbally punching people in the face. Or being all aggressive, and that really isn't true because healthy boundaries usually have some flexibility to them. Right. If we think about the ways that boundaries can be disordered, you can have boundaries that are too loose, which are called poorous boundaries. You can have boundaries that are too stiff, right, and this is having rigid boundaries. So if you have someone who's like, hey, it's my way or the highway, get out, that's not someone who's healthy. That's someone who has disordered boundaries. They're rigid boundaries because that's unnecessary unless something is extreme, unless someone is being violent, words an abusive, or a toxic toxic situation. Generally, we don't need to be like my way or the highway. We can assert ourselves. Whoever's on board, grade, whoever's that's fine too. So I think the myths around it is that a lot of times people mistake rigid boundaries is for being masterful at boundaries, and it just perpetuates the myth even more right, it just makes people not want to be good at boundaries with all of this fear of what will other people think about me? That's definitely the piece that I've struggled with is the boundary, sticking by the boundary piece because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings offend them. And just like you said, I mean definitely called me out on that. It's like my uncomfortableness too, and that where it's you know, a situation happened even a couple months ago where it's like normally I would hug an enemy and I'm like, I don't need to have I don't want to hug that person. I'm not I'm not going to and that uncomfortable feeling I sat with and then it went away, but I was like, Okay, it showed me that I can do it. But also it still was like I'm the kind of person like I just want I just want everyone to be happy, you know, like happy, happy, happy, everything's fine, Like even like how i'd handle with my ex husband. Now it's like I just I just I just want everyone to be happy, right, so blessed. I don't want the drama. I don't want the I just I don't want any of it. So that piece is almost interfering with my boundary piece. Well, here's the thing. I totally understand you. I am you. I was like, I totally get it because we're lovers, right, We're like, life is good. Let's just all get along, Like, what's the problem. It's not a big deal, it's fine. Like we're always the ones who were like, I'm happy to take one for the team. It's fine, forget it, let's do what she wants it. I'm But what happens is if that worked as a long term goal, there'd be no problem with that. But the thing is it doesn't. What ends up happening is that if we self abandoned too much in the service of keeping the peace, quote unquote, you know, as Cheryl Richardson would say, you know, you start a war within yourself that the result is feeling resentful. So when we overgive or over accommodate or whatever it is that we're doing, we end up feeling like, instead of taking responsibility in our own mind for like I offered to do this, what happened for me in my twenties is that I started feeling I was really resentful of everyone. I kept thinking like, I can't believe how entitled these people are. I cannot believe that this person would ask me to do this after everything I've done for them, Like I'd be so pissed at the ask rather than I never saw that. I didn't know that I could just go no, Like I actually don't have the bandwidth it, that doesn't work for me. I can't do it. I wish you good luck, Like it didn't enter my mind. I felt like I had to do it. About fifteen years ago, I was walking with one of my girlfriends in the West Village, Kate Northrup, who's also an author and do the stuff, and the whole entire walk over to where we were going, she was complaining about this person who was so entitled and she had done so much for her and that she just got off the phone with her and she just asked her to do something else, and like who raises these people? And why is she like that? And I can't even believe it. Just the nerve, It just pisses me off. She's so unappreciated, blah blah blah. Till we get all the way to the place and I just said to her, yeah, Kate, she's got some nerve putting you in the position to have to say no. And she was like, holy shit, Terry, why don't I just say no? I'm like, that's what I'm saying dude, Because here's the reality, Janna, and you know this. People are going to ask you anything. They're going to ask you ridiculously intrusive questions about your life about anything. They're going to ask you to do things for them that you don't want to do. Sometimes it's because they're ignorant. Sometimes it's because they're selfish. Who the hell cares? That is their side of the street. What you do is your side of the street. So when I got healthier through therapy and the year, you know then it became a therapist and all that stuff, I realized I keep looking out. I can't stop blaming other people. I'm so into it. I'm like, this one's a jerg and this one's selfish, and this one and this. When I started realizing that it was my job to keep my side of the street clean, and then it wasn't my job to people please all these people because it was becoming very unpleasing to me to be a people pleaser, my life changed. I realized it could be simple. I could simply say I love you and I can't do it right. I could simply say I came up with ways because I used to always lend people money like ps. Just don't That's all I'm saying. And I can't real they are. Don't lend anybody money. It's just going to be a shit show eventually, trust me when I tell you it's very Yeah, i'mlily that is going to end well. But then I just got healthier and I was like, oh, you know what, I'm gonna have a policy. It's not personal, it's a policy. Someone asked me, some of my family has been lend money. Hey, you know what, I have a no lending policy. It's not personal to you. It's just my thing because this is how I protect my relationships. Sure done, you know, just say no, Yeah, thanks Nancy Reagan. I never right if that only worked with drugs, right? Um, It's it's interesting because I feel like boundaries right has been one of the the hot words like gaslighter, gaslighting, narcissist, Your boundaries. I'm curious, like where like it's all boundaries have always been there, But why are we just talking about it now? I think a lot of things, honestly, because I've been talking about this, researching it for twenty years, you know, so I felt kind of alone back in the earlier two thousands, but you have the me too. You know what things really broke in twenty seventeen and the whole thing about informed consent. All of this became boundary conversations, so it was always an issue. I think we should establish, though, for people watching and listening, what are boundaries, because I think there's a lot of confusion about that. So can I quickly go into that, please, please do well the way that I teach it, I want you to think about your own boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement. It lets other people know what's okay with you and what it's not okay with you. So your boundaries are comprised of your preferences, your limits, and your deal breakers. So that's like your non negotiables. So the important thing is you have to not just know them, which most people honestly don't. This is part of what I teach when I teach boundaries, people don't even know their preferences and their deal breakers. As you just said, Johnny, your preference is for there to be in no problems, right. Your preference is peace. You want there to be peace in the valley. You would like everyone to get along, and you don't want any crap. That's basically your preference. But it really can't be because I'm talking about your personal preference, and because we can't control others, so you have to know what they are and have the ability to readily communicate them transparently. So it's like thinking about it as a language unto itself, because it is. And when people go I'm bad at boundaries, I don't know how to do it, blah blah blah, I always say, listen, you wouldn't feel bad about not being fluent in French. It's like nobody taught you French. You wouldn't feel like something's wrong with me. I must be weak, I must be I'm a pushover. No, this is literally a language that you can learn. I teach it to people all the time. It's just saying I want to Because what is on the other side of you being able to assert and hold onto your boundaries with ease, with grace, naturally, without a slamming heart, without your sweating, without being so afraid of reprisal, is your liberation? Is your full expression of yourself? Is you authentically being you and developing who you are authentically? When we live in these boxes that are created by these disordered boundaries. People don't know us. We're saying yes when we want us to say no. We're kind of taking one for the team. As I said before, right, we're like someone gives you something you don't like it, you're like, oh, that's okay, you know, or like I'm not going to say anything about it. Or they want to do something you don't want to do. You're like, oh, I'll go along because they want to ye as opposed to seeing that your preferences matter, and it doesn't mean you have to get your way. It means it's information that if we're endlessly going along to get along with others, they don't know us, Like that's a fact. They really don't intimately know you if you're not sharing what your preferences, your limits, and your deal breakers are. And then we're so shocked that people can't read our minds and we're so offended and we're so hurt and we feel unimportant or whatever it is. But there is a cure for that, which is effective communication. And if people are like, where do I start? Where do I know what this lady's saying? I think it makes sense, but I don't even I have no idea the state of my boundaries. I always have people start by doing a resentment inventory. Oh interesting, tell me more about that. Well, we're just going to write down what you're feeling resentful about, like who the person is, what you're feeling, the situation, why you're resentful, and then in that third column we can leave a blank for anow because you may not know the answer, but you're going to think about what boundary is needed in this situation, because when we feel resentful, this is telling us. It's like a GPS for where either you need to establish the boundary because maybe you haven't said anything, so the person is doing something that's bothering you or hurting your feelings but they don't know what because you're not telling them. Or maybe it's where a boundary is being violated. Maybe you have said something but the person continues to trample on the boundary. Either way, what we know about resentment is that some need is going unmet if you're feeling an ongoing resentment for someone, so identifying like the top five in your life right now would be so helpful because it tells you where to put your time and energy. It tells you what relationship needs something from you right where you need to have a conversation potentially and if you don't feel like you can right now. Just identifying what is creating resentment for you is so powerful because so much of this janet is in the basement, as I call it, in your unconscious mind. Like a lot of times it'll show up as confusion because it's almost like we don't want to know because then we feel like we're going to have to have a conversation we don't know how to have. Do that makes sense? You know? When I hear you say this, it's like it's asking for what you need, right, So it's like the word is boundary, but it's also asking for what you need. So and any time you ask for what you need, there's always better communication that follows. Now. The only little caveat to that is sometimes I've asked people, well, I'd say, like my ex like for what I need, and it was never met. So I think there's the resentment came in when that need was or that like, hey, I maybe I need a little extra reassurance this month or or what or you know that's I know that's a different than a technically a boundary, but it's still you know, under I think the same umbrella where it's like you're asking for what you need. But then if that if that feels like it's not happening or they're not listening, then that like the resentment brews even more. Yes, but let's be specific about asking for what we need. We have to be very specific, like with what it is. So I've had a lot of therapy clients who will be like, you know, I'm telling my partner, I just need them to be more sensitive. They just need to be more sensitive to me and what I'm going through. And I'm like, Okay, they don't know what you mean, right, They hear your words, they intellectually understand what you're saying. But you have to say, hey, it would mean a lot to me if when I'm talking to you with the end of the day, if you put your phone down right because I really need your full attention and it really makes me feel unimportant. That's clarifying your need. Yes, yes, yes, exactly more clarity because again even the broad stroke of what we need then they don't understand. But what the situation that you share, Janna, is you're using and I imagine you did use the information, like when we make a boundary request, and I think that getting our needs met absolutely is a boundary request. What is happening is we're giving the people the opportunity to step up or not. So if your ex was incapable or unwilling or whatever the reason was, that was verifiable data for you about what that soul was willing or capable of doing, and then you have decisions to make with real data, right, not with making assumptions or projections like actual data ware. I asked for what I needed, I was specific, the person basically couldn't deliver, didn't deliver, didn't want to deliver what am I willing right to tolerate? And how many times can this boundary be broken before it's like, hands are up, I can't walk this broken boundary life with you? Right. Well, this is why we put people into categories, or I put people into categories where we have boundary first timers. So there are people that maybe you thought for years that they were like a bossy bully or a boundary bully. Let's say, right, but you haven't said anything to them, so we're going to consider them first timers. But then you have the people who are the repeat offenders, which is what you're talking about, where yes, it might take a minute for an established relationship to do a new boundary dance. That's true. But if you find yourself in groundhog day of frustration having the same conversations with no change behavior, now you have your decision to make about is this a deal breaker? Is this a preference? Is this a limit? Like not all boundaries are created equal, right, A preference is I really don't want to go to bed late at night. You go to bed late at night, but I don't my preferences. You would come to bed earlier with me. Maybe your partner will sometimes maybe they won't, but that probably wouldn't be a deal breaker. Let's say monogamy being faithful. For some people, that's a deal breaker if you tell the person, hey, if you step out, we're done, because that is a deal breaker for me. You let the person know if they step out, then you and the relationship. So they're not all created equal. But it's important that we know what's important to us, what matters to us in the relationship, and we communicate that to the best for our ability with repeat offenders. Though, one thing that we usually need to do is to establish consequences. Right, if you have someone who, let's just say they were always late, but they don't let you know. Right, and you're the person at home, maybe maybe you're making dinner, or you're ordering in or whatever the thing is, planning to eat together, you make the request, Hey, I'd like to make a simple request that if you're going to be more than ten or fifteen minutes late, that you giving it a text heads up, so I'll keep the food hot, or I won't plan to eat so whatever. If they keep not doing it, an appropriate consequence would say, hey, we've had this conversation four times. Four times you told me you were going to let me know, you didn't. If it happens again, I'm eating without you. I'm no longer planning to have dinner with you. You can, I'll put it in the fridge. You can eat alone when you get home. Now. That may sound petty, or that may sound like who cares. But for some people, if you eat together every night, you're doing something different. That says I'm not just going to tolerate the same behavior over and over again and complain about it. There has to be some kind of consequence, and sometimes the consequences ending the relationship eventually, right, I mean, listen, those are all really and it's it's interesting because the holding to the boundaries and then the consequences is something that I was awful at. So I would, you know, be like, all right, well, if you do it again, I'm leaving you. Well I think I said that five million times, and then we came to a place where the person doesn't believe then your your non negotiables, and your I guess quote unquote threats right to leave the relationship. So they're not going to stop doing what they're doing if you don't stand by what your bottom line was. And that's that was kind of like a hard lesson that I learned. Apps. It's so true because the bottom line is we're teaching them, but they can keep doing it by not enforcing a consequence. Yeah, well literally teaching them, you know. But by doing boundaries and all these things, you can finally live free and you can feel good about it. And so in order to do that, check out Boundary Boss the essential guy to talk true, be seen, and finally live free. Terry, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you,

Wine Down with Janna Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast. All Right, it's your Wine about It Thursday Therapy episode. I am really excited to have Terry Cole on. She's a licensed psychotherapist, global relationship and empowerment expert, and the author of Boundary Boss, which we're gonna be talking about today. It's the essential guy to talk true, be seen, and finally live free. She's worked with many clients from stay at home moms to celebrities and Fortune five hundred CEOs, and so let's get her on to talk about her book. Hey, Terry people, how are you, Terry. I'm Janna Yan Janna. How are you doing? You know what I'm doing pretty good? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I feel I'm feeling good. I had therapy yesterday, so I'm feeling you know, centered, and but you know, they still have things to work on, right like we all do life life exactly. But I mean, I'm excited to talk to you. Your book sounds amazing and it's I saw a little thing from it. So this book is for women who are exhausted from overgiving, overdoing, and even over feeling if you're getting it all done at the expense of yourself, give yourself the gift of boundary boss. And if you could, like, what is a boundary boss to you? It's someone who knows themselves. You know your preferences, your limits, your deal breakers, you have the ability to share them readily with the people in your life. Really, being a boundary boss means living a self determined life because you're not spending all your time people pleasing and self abandoning. Right. It's interesting though, I've so I'm kind of how do I say I've I've been a people pleaser. I'm going on the opposite. I'm learning to not just people please and I'm learning to have better boundaries. But it's interesting. I had I kind of ran into a little bit of a situation the other day where someone had texted me something and I'm like, normally and I did even in that moment, I laughed, I go hah, even though I didn't think it was funny, and I kind of wish this person wouldn't text me that, right, So, trying to do better in my work, I'm like, I'm going to set a boundary to hey, don't please don't. I don't need to have these text message being sent to me right, So I said, hey, for the future, I would appreciate it if you don't send these kind of text messages as I just don't like, I'm in a different place in my life and I don't really care about this message and so I would just appreciate that moving forward. But their response was wow, like wow, just trying to be respectful, and I'm like, and I go, my tone was not a great I'm just simply saying but I'm like. I then felt like I had to defend myself for my boundary and that's where I was like, and so I did because I wanted them to know, because I know text is so hard right with tone. So then I said, I think you're mister understanding my text tone. I also just need to express to you that I don't want to get these messages anymore, and that's okay for me to ask that. But then I felt guilty and then I was like, oh, shoot, should I call this person and be like, hey, sorry, But I'm like, no, I'm not sorry. I said what I needed you took it as offensive. So now I'm kind of like, what do I do. Well. Part of it is you're not that fragile, so you being uncomfortable for a little, It is okay because you're doing something new. This will become if you keep going, Jenna, this will become your new normal. And we can care that someone else didn't like, love our boundary and lovingly hold on to our boundary. Right, You weren't making that person wrong. He didn't say you're a jerk for sending it to me. You basically said I would not like to receive these going forward, and lang could help you know, I like to. I have a lot of them sentenced stem sort of starters of And even in that situation, let's just say, if we had a redo, you could type I'd like to make a simple request that in the future you leave me off of this type of text forward or whatever the person was doing like this, I'd appreciate. Thank you, right, thank you, I appreciate that. So I also assume that people are going to do it I want them to do when I've set a boundary, So thank you for respecting my boundary. So what we're setting them up a by calling it a simple request, because here's the truth, everything we ask from anyone is a simple request. That doesn't mean they're going to do it, but certainly, it's not complicated for that person to stop sending you text messages right right now, it's simple right now. But then now they think I'm being aggressive. Here's the thing though, what they think is their side of the street. Oh it's so hard for me because I want to say, like, that's my tone. Wasn't like that, Like I don't like that's where my work is still getting there. But also, let yourself be uncomfortable. Have compassion for the fact that you did something that felt scary. You did a brave thing that you know is aligned with better mental health for you, which is why you did it, And give yourself credit for that, and let yourself feel a little uncomfortable. Here's the thing. We hate to feel misunderstood, right, we hate to feel that someone is misconstruing. But here's what really matters is what your intention was, which was to set up a limit with this person that you are asking them not to cross by don't text me those things in the future. That's your right. You could go be totally agro and like completely block them, like you know that there's you're not being extreme right in what you said or what you did, but your desire to control their feelings. Right. This really goes this is you know, disordered emotional boundaries, but it goes into codependency. Right. There's a certain amount of codependency that comes when you think about, like what is codependency? Right? We hear all about it, but does anyone really understand is that you're just wanting the other person to be happy above your own happiness. Listen, that's a simple way of putting it. But it's more than that, right, Right, Because if I were to describe it, I would say my definition of codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the decisions, the circumstances of the people in our life, to the detriment of our own internal peace, or to the detriment to our mental wellness, our financial wellbeing, our physical wellbeing. Right. Because maybe you're giving somebody money or whatever it is, and what is at the base the basement of that, The foundation of that is disordered boundaries. Because we are unclear where we end and that person begins. We feel overly responsible for their feeling, We feel overly responsible for what we think they're thinking. Right, we want to change it. But again, at the base of this is a covert or overt bid or desire to control the other person, and sometimes we just have to go it's okay. If they misunderstand me, it's okay. You don't want to have to justify the crap out of your no or out of your request, or out of anything, because it is your right to have your text message space be a sacred place for you. Right. You want to protect yourself and whatever that thing was that you didn't like, that's your right. And if people are going to get offended, and they will at times, especially if this is new behavior, and especially if these are established or older relationships. So when we think about starting to have better boundaries in life, communicating more effectively the people that it can be the most challenging with our family of origin because when you think about what are boundaries, what are relational stuff, It's they're like dances, right, It's like I do this, you do that, you do that, I do this. It's like a well sort of orchestrated and understood way of behaving. When we change that dance, the people we've been dancing with the longest, obviously they're going to notice that you're changing your steps, and that's okay. They feel threatened. The reason why people get offended. Part of it is ego, of course, but a lot of times when we're starting to change and you or do something different or establish new boundaries, people are afraid that we're going to change so much that we no longer want them in our life, or that they'll lose us in some way. They may not be conscious of this, but I can tell you being a therapist for twenty five years, this fear is real. And so it's not just their desire to sort of control you or make you admit that you were wrong. It's a fear that this is like a new interaction in this relationship. We don't normally interact this way, and it's scaring me. So I always say, listen, we can set boundaries with kindness, with love. We can set boundaries with more heat when we need to right if it's like Bob from Accounting, who's being inappropriate, Like a little heat might be good, but that's on us. And I think a lot of the myths around healthy boundaries is that if you have them, year a bit. If you have them, you're rejecting people left and right, or verbally punching people in the face. Or being all aggressive, and that really isn't true because healthy boundaries usually have some flexibility to them. Right. If we think about the ways that boundaries can be disordered, you can have boundaries that are too loose, which are called poorous boundaries. You can have boundaries that are too stiff, right, and this is having rigid boundaries. So if you have someone who's like, hey, it's my way or the highway, get out, that's not someone who's healthy. That's someone who has disordered boundaries. They're rigid boundaries because that's unnecessary unless something is extreme, unless someone is being violent, words an abusive, or a toxic toxic situation. Generally, we don't need to be like my way or the highway. We can assert ourselves. Whoever's on board, grade, whoever's that's fine too. So I think the myths around it is that a lot of times people mistake rigid boundaries is for being masterful at boundaries, and it just perpetuates the myth even more right, it just makes people not want to be good at boundaries with all of this fear of what will other people think about me? That's definitely the piece that I've struggled with is the boundary, sticking by the boundary piece because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings offend them. And just like you said, I mean definitely called me out on that. It's like my uncomfortableness too, and that where it's you know, a situation happened even a couple months ago where it's like normally I would hug an enemy and I'm like, I don't need to have I don't want to hug that person. I'm not I'm not going to and that uncomfortable feeling I sat with and then it went away, but I was like, Okay, it showed me that I can do it. But also it still was like I'm the kind of person like I just want I just want everyone to be happy, you know, like happy, happy, happy, everything's fine, Like even like how i'd handle with my ex husband. Now it's like I just I just I just want everyone to be happy, right, so blessed. I don't want the drama. I don't want the I just I don't want any of it. So that piece is almost interfering with my boundary piece. Well, here's the thing. I totally understand you. I am you. I was like, I totally get it because we're lovers, right, We're like, life is good. Let's just all get along, Like, what's the problem. It's not a big deal, it's fine. Like we're always the ones who were like, I'm happy to take one for the team. It's fine, forget it, let's do what she wants it. I'm But what happens is if that worked as a long term goal, there'd be no problem with that. But the thing is it doesn't. What ends up happening is that if we self abandoned too much in the service of keeping the peace, quote unquote, you know, as Cheryl Richardson would say, you know, you start a war within yourself that the result is feeling resentful. So when we overgive or over accommodate or whatever it is that we're doing, we end up feeling like, instead of taking responsibility in our own mind for like I offered to do this, what happened for me in my twenties is that I started feeling I was really resentful of everyone. I kept thinking like, I can't believe how entitled these people are. I cannot believe that this person would ask me to do this after everything I've done for them, Like I'd be so pissed at the ask rather than I never saw that. I didn't know that I could just go no, Like I actually don't have the bandwidth it, that doesn't work for me. I can't do it. I wish you good luck, Like it didn't enter my mind. I felt like I had to do it. About fifteen years ago, I was walking with one of my girlfriends in the West Village, Kate Northrup, who's also an author and do the stuff, and the whole entire walk over to where we were going, she was complaining about this person who was so entitled and she had done so much for her and that she just got off the phone with her and she just asked her to do something else, and like who raises these people? And why is she like that? And I can't even believe it. Just the nerve, It just pisses me off. She's so unappreciated, blah blah blah. Till we get all the way to the place and I just said to her, yeah, Kate, she's got some nerve putting you in the position to have to say no. And she was like, holy shit, Terry, why don't I just say no? I'm like, that's what I'm saying dude, Because here's the reality, Janna, and you know this. People are going to ask you anything. They're going to ask you ridiculously intrusive questions about your life about anything. They're going to ask you to do things for them that you don't want to do. Sometimes it's because they're ignorant. Sometimes it's because they're selfish. Who the hell cares? That is their side of the street. What you do is your side of the street. So when I got healthier through therapy and the year, you know then it became a therapist and all that stuff, I realized I keep looking out. I can't stop blaming other people. I'm so into it. I'm like, this one's a jerg and this one's selfish, and this one and this. When I started realizing that it was my job to keep my side of the street clean, and then it wasn't my job to people please all these people because it was becoming very unpleasing to me to be a people pleaser, my life changed. I realized it could be simple. I could simply say I love you and I can't do it right. I could simply say I came up with ways because I used to always lend people money like ps. Just don't That's all I'm saying. And I can't real they are. Don't lend anybody money. It's just going to be a shit show eventually, trust me when I tell you it's very Yeah, i'mlily that is going to end well. But then I just got healthier and I was like, oh, you know what, I'm gonna have a policy. It's not personal, it's a policy. Someone asked me, some of my family has been lend money. Hey, you know what, I have a no lending policy. It's not personal to you. It's just my thing because this is how I protect my relationships. Sure done, you know, just say no, Yeah, thanks Nancy Reagan. I never right if that only worked with drugs, right? Um, It's it's interesting because I feel like boundaries right has been one of the the hot words like gaslighter, gaslighting, narcissist, Your boundaries. I'm curious, like where like it's all boundaries have always been there, But why are we just talking about it now? I think a lot of things, honestly, because I've been talking about this, researching it for twenty years, you know, so I felt kind of alone back in the earlier two thousands, but you have the me too. You know what things really broke in twenty seventeen and the whole thing about informed consent. All of this became boundary conversations, so it was always an issue. I think we should establish, though, for people watching and listening, what are boundaries, because I think there's a lot of confusion about that. So can I quickly go into that, please, please do well the way that I teach it, I want you to think about your own boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement. It lets other people know what's okay with you and what it's not okay with you. So your boundaries are comprised of your preferences, your limits, and your deal breakers. So that's like your non negotiables. So the important thing is you have to not just know them, which most people honestly don't. This is part of what I teach when I teach boundaries, people don't even know their preferences and their deal breakers. As you just said, Johnny, your preference is for there to be in no problems, right. Your preference is peace. You want there to be peace in the valley. You would like everyone to get along, and you don't want any crap. That's basically your preference. But it really can't be because I'm talking about your personal preference, and because we can't control others, so you have to know what they are and have the ability to readily communicate them transparently. So it's like thinking about it as a language unto itself, because it is. And when people go I'm bad at boundaries, I don't know how to do it, blah blah blah, I always say, listen, you wouldn't feel bad about not being fluent in French. It's like nobody taught you French. You wouldn't feel like something's wrong with me. I must be weak, I must be I'm a pushover. No, this is literally a language that you can learn. I teach it to people all the time. It's just saying I want to Because what is on the other side of you being able to assert and hold onto your boundaries with ease, with grace, naturally, without a slamming heart, without your sweating, without being so afraid of reprisal, is your liberation? Is your full expression of yourself? Is you authentically being you and developing who you are authentically? When we live in these boxes that are created by these disordered boundaries. People don't know us. We're saying yes when we want us to say no. We're kind of taking one for the team. As I said before, right, we're like someone gives you something you don't like it, you're like, oh, that's okay, you know, or like I'm not going to say anything about it. Or they want to do something you don't want to do. You're like, oh, I'll go along because they want to ye as opposed to seeing that your preferences matter, and it doesn't mean you have to get your way. It means it's information that if we're endlessly going along to get along with others, they don't know us, Like that's a fact. They really don't intimately know you if you're not sharing what your preferences, your limits, and your deal breakers are. And then we're so shocked that people can't read our minds and we're so offended and we're so hurt and we feel unimportant or whatever it is. But there is a cure for that, which is effective communication. And if people are like, where do I start? Where do I know what this lady's saying? I think it makes sense, but I don't even I have no idea the state of my boundaries. I always have people start by doing a resentment inventory. Oh interesting, tell me more about that. Well, we're just going to write down what you're feeling resentful about, like who the person is, what you're feeling, the situation, why you're resentful, and then in that third column we can leave a blank for anow because you may not know the answer, but you're going to think about what boundary is needed in this situation, because when we feel resentful, this is telling us. It's like a GPS for where either you need to establish the boundary because maybe you haven't said anything, so the person is doing something that's bothering you or hurting your feelings but they don't know what because you're not telling them. Or maybe it's where a boundary is being violated. Maybe you have said something but the person continues to trample on the boundary. Either way, what we know about resentment is that some need is going unmet if you're feeling an ongoing resentment for someone, so identifying like the top five in your life right now would be so helpful because it tells you where to put your time and energy. It tells you what relationship needs something from you right where you need to have a conversation potentially and if you don't feel like you can right now. Just identifying what is creating resentment for you is so powerful because so much of this janet is in the basement, as I call it, in your unconscious mind. Like a lot of times it'll show up as confusion because it's almost like we don't want to know because then we feel like we're going to have to have a conversation we don't know how to have. Do that makes sense? You know? When I hear you say this, it's like it's asking for what you need, right, So it's like the word is boundary, but it's also asking for what you need. So and any time you ask for what you need, there's always better communication that follows. Now. The only little caveat to that is sometimes I've asked people, well, I'd say, like my ex like for what I need, and it was never met. So I think there's the resentment came in when that need was or that like, hey, I maybe I need a little extra reassurance this month or or what or you know that's I know that's a different than a technically a boundary, but it's still you know, under I think the same umbrella where it's like you're asking for what you need. But then if that if that feels like it's not happening or they're not listening, then that like the resentment brews even more. Yes, but let's be specific about asking for what we need. We have to be very specific, like with what it is. So I've had a lot of therapy clients who will be like, you know, I'm telling my partner, I just need them to be more sensitive. They just need to be more sensitive to me and what I'm going through. And I'm like, Okay, they don't know what you mean, right, They hear your words, they intellectually understand what you're saying. But you have to say, hey, it would mean a lot to me if when I'm talking to you with the end of the day, if you put your phone down right because I really need your full attention and it really makes me feel unimportant. That's clarifying your need. Yes, yes, yes, exactly more clarity because again even the broad stroke of what we need then they don't understand. But what the situation that you share, Janna, is you're using and I imagine you did use the information, like when we make a boundary request, and I think that getting our needs met absolutely is a boundary request. What is happening is we're giving the people the opportunity to step up or not. So if your ex was incapable or unwilling or whatever the reason was, that was verifiable data for you about what that soul was willing or capable of doing, and then you have decisions to make with real data, right, not with making assumptions or projections like actual data ware. I asked for what I needed, I was specific, the person basically couldn't deliver, didn't deliver, didn't want to deliver what am I willing right to tolerate? And how many times can this boundary be broken before it's like, hands are up, I can't walk this broken boundary life with you? Right. Well, this is why we put people into categories, or I put people into categories where we have boundary first timers. So there are people that maybe you thought for years that they were like a bossy bully or a boundary bully. Let's say, right, but you haven't said anything to them, so we're going to consider them first timers. But then you have the people who are the repeat offenders, which is what you're talking about, where yes, it might take a minute for an established relationship to do a new boundary dance. That's true. But if you find yourself in groundhog day of frustration having the same conversations with no change behavior, now you have your decision to make about is this a deal breaker? Is this a preference? Is this a limit? Like not all boundaries are created equal, right, A preference is I really don't want to go to bed late at night. You go to bed late at night, but I don't my preferences. You would come to bed earlier with me. Maybe your partner will sometimes maybe they won't, but that probably wouldn't be a deal breaker. Let's say monogamy being faithful. For some people, that's a deal breaker if you tell the person, hey, if you step out, we're done, because that is a deal breaker for me. You let the person know if they step out, then you and the relationship. So they're not all created equal. But it's important that we know what's important to us, what matters to us in the relationship, and we communicate that to the best for our ability with repeat offenders. Though, one thing that we usually need to do is to establish consequences. Right, if you have someone who, let's just say they were always late, but they don't let you know. Right, and you're the person at home, maybe maybe you're making dinner, or you're ordering in or whatever the thing is, planning to eat together, you make the request, Hey, I'd like to make a simple request that if you're going to be more than ten or fifteen minutes late, that you giving it a text heads up, so I'll keep the food hot, or I won't plan to eat so whatever. If they keep not doing it, an appropriate consequence would say, hey, we've had this conversation four times. Four times you told me you were going to let me know, you didn't. If it happens again, I'm eating without you. I'm no longer planning to have dinner with you. You can, I'll put it in the fridge. You can eat alone when you get home. Now. That may sound petty, or that may sound like who cares. But for some people, if you eat together every night, you're doing something different. That says I'm not just going to tolerate the same behavior over and over again and complain about it. There has to be some kind of consequence, and sometimes the consequences ending the relationship eventually, right, I mean, listen, those are all really and it's it's interesting because the holding to the boundaries and then the consequences is something that I was awful at. So I would, you know, be like, all right, well, if you do it again, I'm leaving you. Well I think I said that five million times, and then we came to a place where the person doesn't believe then your your non negotiables, and your I guess quote unquote threats right to leave the relationship. So they're not going to stop doing what they're doing if you don't stand by what your bottom line was. And that's that was kind of like a hard lesson that I learned. Apps. It's so true because the bottom line is we're teaching them, but they can keep doing it by not enforcing a consequence. Yeah, well literally teaching them, you know. But by doing boundaries and all these things, you can finally live free and you can feel good about it. And so in order to do that, check out Boundary Boss the essential guy to talk true, be seen, and finally live free. Terry, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you,