Jana explores the challenge of facing rejection in the entertainment industry with help from Pamela Warner, a talent manager (and mother of a famous actor!).
Pamela takes us through her experience of balancing responsibilities as a manager and a mother, and how to form successful relationships in the industry.
Plus, she has some incredible advice for any parent whose child wants a career in show business.
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. On this week's Thursday Therapy, we have on Pamela Warner. So she's the mother of award winning actor Malcolm Jamal Warner, famed for his role as Theodora Huxtable on The Cosby Show, which we're in for eight seasons. She has a new book out about managing kids show biz kids. So let's get her on. Hi friend, Hey, good morning. How are you.
I'm good? How are you?
I'm good. I'm excited to chat with you because I feel like you're The book that is just released, it's called The Parenting, A Parent's Guide to Managing show Biz Kids has come at a really good time for me because I've got I've got two well, i've got three kids, but two of them. So my son is five, my daughter's eight, and then I've got a three month old.
But boy, you're busy girl.
My answer full. And it's so I just got offered a movie and there's a role in there where they essentially asked like, hey, you know, one of the like one of the kids in the movie is she's you know, seven years old, your daughter's eight. Would you maybe want to consider having your daughter play the daughter role. And she's come on set with me since she was a baby.
You know, it's a rope. She's experienced.
Yeah, she's you know, she gets it. She you know, she understands, and she always like brings her like coloring book, you know, on the you know, in the hair and makeup trailer, and she's just she's grew up on the sets, so so she likes them. But there was a piece of me that and this just happened last night, Like all of this just happened last night, and I'm like, I don't know the answer, because just a few weeks ago, I had one of probably one of the biggest auditions I tested for. It was between me and another girl. I ended up not getting it. And listen, in the acting world, as you know, you're rejected ninety nine point nine percent of the time, right, And most of those rejections I get it, you know, and I'm fine with them. I audition, I leave the room, I forget about it. But the ones where you sign the contract, you get really close and you're like, wow, this is going to be that big next Desperate Housewives, and I'm this close and it's going to change my entire career and then when you don't get it. I mean I I probably cried for three straight days and just like I'm just I'm just a dalist and I suck and like why are you? Like, I'm like what do I like? Who even am I? I'm like, I'm just nobody and I'm never gonna And I'm like, there's that that piece of the industry where it just completely makes you feel like you are a worthless piece of sh you know.
Well I do, I understand, and not not me, but I remember experiencing this with Malcolm many many years ago, and there was a role that he really wanted. It was between him and another kid, and he didn't get it and he was so despondent. So I mean it was just awful and so it broke my heart. And I just said to the agent, if he has to go through this, and I don't think this is what I want to do. Right. He was a child, you know, he was a child and he was learning. This is just it's just it's part of the business and there's no magic anything. It's just it's on such a whim. The whole business is, particularly with casting, it's such a whim of the person of the gatekeeper. It could be, you know, a lock of your hair was out of place, who knows, who knows, And I think it's something that is can be detrimental to an actor. You have to do what you said you normally do, just walk away from it. But some things you want more than others, more than others, But you have to find a way to get over it.
Because yeah, and I obviously I did. But the piece that made me pause last night was like, and I know the kids, you know, well, they don't make the teams, like someone that we're close with, like their kid didn't make the travel him and they're upset. Like I understand that's a part of life, right, But I'm also like, well, if this is something that she's going to then enjoy, I'm like, do I really want this for her? And that's where the pause came.
Yeah, yeah, do you want to? Do you want? But this is my book was written for that, for that parent who has no idea of anything about show business. They don't they don't even know what stage left, stage right, They didn't even notice. They have no clue. Right in your situation, you're an experienced entertainer, actress and you're a mother, and so you have to make a decision. You know, you have to make a decision. I remember when the decision first came to me about management, because I had another manager first initially, and when I had to make a decision about him, and then I had to make a decision with myself. Do I really want to be this in involved? Do I really want to take the reins of this? Do I really want to I had to do the self evaluation and it came up, yes, I do, because I'm the best person for the job of the best person to child. You have such an advantage because you know the business and she's old enough that you can have conversations with her and you can talk to her. Now. The other conversation with yourself is how much of this will it take away from what I want to do? And that's that's a big question. How does this impact my career goals and what I want to do for myself? And only you can answer that. You can say, well, I'll do fifteen percent, or you can get a manager. You can get a manager to handle that, oversee everything. Because she's a.
Minor pamely, You're like, I'm a manager, you're like sending her tape right now.
You know they're different. You know, it's all old saying. You know, there's more than one way to skin a cat. So the final decision making is with you. And how will it impact your dreams? How will it impact your dreams? Because so many times parents their dreams get put aside, and that's that's just the way it is.
So well, you know in Pamelin, when you say that too, I go, My whole world now is just to support my children. So like I work to support my children, you know, and like that's my yes, Like obviously this last role would have been, you know, something that like I wanted for me. But everything else I do and most of the things I do now is to check the box and to support my kids. Have a roof over their head, have a good living for them, you know, you know, pay pay their house, of their dads, you know what I mean, Like I do the things that I have to do to support my children, and so absolutely, but in their dreams are now I'm excited for their dreams. Now, I'm like, what do you want to do? Do you want it? So it's like we'll try this for we'll do this like, you know, I'm like, whatever we got to do to give you the life you know and to follow your dreams. And it's like their dreams are now they excite me and like what is it?
You know?
But also I go into that, you know, when I see your book that you know about show biz, I'm like, oh gosh, I'm like, is someone that doesn't moms that don't know? Like what are your tips in the book for parents that just don't know the industry at all?
Well, the tips I think are just what I've said to you. You got to think about this, think about it, do your research, try to understand the business and will this fit within your family dynamic? Will it fit for you? Is this really something you want your child to be involved in? It's it's you have to do your inner research and you have to do your online research. Because I can't I can't say yes, do this. I can't say no, don't do it. It's really up to the parent, right what what what works for them? You know what so that you can so that you can follow help them have their dreams realize. But I was going to say with you you also, yes, you're you're doing you're you're taking care of your children. But what gets missed sometimes is the parent doesn't get taken care of and with you know, you have to find a way to balance all of that so that you're also fulfilled because you're not just a mother. You know, you're you're you're all these other things, and you don't want any of that stuff to go by the wayside. Luckily, for me, I never knew what I wanted to do, so it was okay for me to pour all my into making Malcolm's dreams come true. And now at this, at this stage in my life, oh okay, they're things that I want to do, but I no longer I'm not a hand I'll always be a parent, but I'm not a caretaking parent at this point.
You know, right, what do you think along the way was your Oh I should have done this? Maybe differently when it relates back to the show biz piece.
For me, I think I should have made more. I should have done better. I should have done a better job at networking.
I should have interesting.
Done a better job at forming relationships. I should have done a better job of promoting myself as his manager. I was very comfortable to kind of be in the background and I really wish I had a network more and developed certain relationships with people in the industry. I didn't do it shyness, being shy, not really understanding what networking and these how these friendships can pay off, you know later down the line. Didn't understand it because no one told me, no one, you should do X, Y and Z. And then that's why I wrote the book. And as we're talking, I should have put that in the book too, but I did. But that could be in the workshops. I can say that in the workshops. But I think those are the things that I wish I could have done. Other than that, I don't think there's not much that I would have changed. And even in terms of even if I had a dream, it was more important for me that he's taken care of, that he was taken care of, that my son was taken care of. If I had have had a dream, I probably would have abdicated that for what I did do was to give my full attention to his career and his well being.
Sure, yeah, and I think something else too that you know, I don't know if you wrote this in the Boo book as well. And of the movies that I've done I've I've only seen moms on set with the babies, not saying the dad's arm, they're I'm sure they're working or you know, handling the house stuff back home or whatever. But what I'll say to and again, I'm curious if you wrote this in as well, but I feel like the moms don't feel like a lot of them, yes, I you know, I they don't want to get in the way, right and so they maybe not they don't feel like they have a voice. So there's certain things that have happened on set where I'm like, hey, you should that. Don't allow that, you know what I mean, like and say something about it, because this is you know, either past hours or they're not doing something right, or it's not good. It's too hot and they're you know whatever. Like you you have, you have a voice, and you can use that, Like don't don't be like, oh no, everything's fine, because I'm like, it's not fine. He's sicks, you know, he looks like he's about to pass out on set, you know, figured it out, you know, I mean, like you could have a voice, you know, And I think it's hard. I can imagine it being hard for the moms to just feel like, well, they don't want to overstep or they don't want to get in the way of something. But your child's working like they should. They should know that they have a voice to speak and use their voice, but you know, not be like two overstepping. Right. So it's like the balance, how do you do that? Right?
I think a lot of times people come into a situation like that, that's their mindset anyway that they don't want to overstep. They'll do that at the market, you know what I'm saying at the grocery store that say, well maybe I shouldn't you know that? What a person that has that that demeanor will have that in any situation. So I think that it's once once again it's about research. What are the rules and regulations? Go contact the union, find out what your rights are, find out what is best for the child. Uh, this is where your research comes in. I think that I do understand because it's so it's so big, and it's so and you don't want to make a mistake and you don't want to cause a disruption. But as long as you have in the forefront of your mind the well being of your child, you have to become a mama bear, not not a not not a stage mom or someone who is in intenable. But you have to protect your child at all, at all costs. And if you do see that it is too hot, if you do see your child is not feeling well, you have you do have to speak up. Some people did just that's just not their nature to speak up period. But some people, yeah, and even though they can see it and feel it and want to, they would, they they would, they won't do it. But I hope that that the that my book will give them a little more impetus to to speak up.
Sure, Now in all areas of work too, you know that shouldn't just yeah, be on that in all areas like you should you have a voice, and that should be a very known thing. Exactly do you do you touch on social media at all? Because now that is a totally different showbiz world as well when it comes to TikTok and all of that.
Now, I do not touch on social media because that kind of goes across the board. It includes all forms of entertainment. And once again, it's about doing your research. It's about doing the research and what will work for you. I do not I do not explore the whole social media because it's a lot. It's a lot, and it's complex, and I don't want to give incorrect information. And I think that in doing the research, the parent will find how that works for them for their child and their family.
What do you have a favorite memory of your son being on the Cosby Show.
I don't think that there is any one particular thing that I can that stands out. I think his overall, the way he approached his work on the show, he was very serious. He was he was very very present. He understood what his responsibilities were as far as in that ensemble. He listened and took direction very well. But that started at home. You had to listen and you and you had to you know, you had to listen to what I had to say. If you weren't listening and I had to keep repeating, it meant that you really were not paying attention to me. So he got that. He got that first hand. I think overall, his enjoyment of being there, his enjoyment of the show, so there wasn't. I think it's his overall time on the show was memorable in terms of his approach and how much he really did enjoy working on that show. He enjoyed it.
Do you think any of that, I mean, the stuff that happened with Bill obviously, does that Did that come in effect just kind of dampen the now looking back at the show, or do you still have like are you able to separate? Is he able to separate? It too?
That did not taint our feelings. It did not taint any of the time or any of the feelings, the good feelings that we had about the show, not in any way, Not in any way, because that's that's that's what that's his personal, private life. This was worth an ensemble cast two different worlds, and it did not change. It did not change our relationship with him. It did not change our love, admir or respect for him. And that was not our that was not our lane. That was his lane.
You know, yeah, yeah, that's good. I was curious how that would But that makes sense. It's like one's personal and one is you know, you as long as you show up to your work and obviously you create a friendship, right, So that's that's hard. But at the same time, you know, you just have to be in your lane. What do you think, what do you want? Like the biggest takeaway to be from your book that.
You are not voiceless, that the voice, and that your knowledge is power, and that you I just don't want parents to feel lost and just like a babe in the woods. I don't want them to feel that way because that's the way I felt when I first got into the business on this level, before Cosby Show, it was an extracurricular activity. It was just something to do, you know. I didn't take it seriously. That world was not on my radar on any level. But once it became a business, and once that show took off I did, I was completely and totally lost, and it was it's a it's not a good feeling because you're making or you don't know if your decision is a career enhancer or a career destroyer. You don't know. You just do not know, and you don't have any any perspective because it's not your world. And so just the just the heart, the stone in my heart. Am I doing? Am I making the right decision? Am I doing the right thing? But I always kept in mind, like I said before, what is best for my child? So with my book, it gives basics, It gives basic information that some parents don't have and just don't know just the basic basic things because each situation is different, and so they will grow in their own way with their child and their child's career. Their child's career is not going to be like another child's career or like the career that that my child had. You, but there's a foundation and a basics, a basis, basics for all of it. And that's what I've written, just the basics. The basics. They yeah, but.
Those basics though, are so important because I think there's so many people and even just the people like how do I get into acting or how do It's just there's just basics on all of it, like you just have to you know, you know, especially with a kid. I mean again, you have to know what are there? You know, what are the standards, what are the rules? What is this and what does what does this mean? And so because it all is confusing and it's a lot, and for someone that doesn't know that world, it's it can just be it can be overwhelming. Yeah.
I've also included a glossary in the book, so there are terms so that when someone says whatever you're not you know, you can pull your book out and look at it.
Maybe you know absolutely well. I love it. Thank you for coming on. Everyone, go get a Parent's Guide to Managing Showbiz Kids. It was released on February fifth, so go get your copy. Pamela, thank you so much for coming on.
Wine down you and good luck with your career. Thanks baby, good one's buddy career.
Thank you appreciate it, Thank you all right, bye friend,