Jana needs to reframe how she looks at boundaries, so Lysa TerKeurst (author of of “It’s Not Supposed to Be This Way”) is here to help Jana understand healthy boundaries set from a place of love.
We learn 3 important words that can change the way you see boundaries.
And Jana’s friends Kathryn and Kristen discuss the long healing process of relational trauma and the triggers that can happen at any moment.
Wine down with Janna Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Oh I'm so excited. Why to be back? I was like, who, what is she planning? I was in a life for way too long. Yeah, I concur that was like a week you really, um, you really bounce back quick. I thought about that today, like you're like podcast tomorrow, and I was like, you're not even in the state yet. It's crazy. Like when I get back from those long trips, I feel like I need like forty eight hours of silence and decompression. And we got in it like what two am? Yeah, we got it like yeah, two and then I couldn't fall asleep to like about like three am. And then this would never work for old Janna. I was always taking the early flights, I know, but old Janna would be like two am. That is way past my bedtime. For sure. It was. It would be like eight oh nine here, and we were all like frantically cleaning up. It's time to go a fifteen. You know why, I'm a grandma. I like to go to bed early. What can I say? I know, but Nujiana doesn't go to bed early all the time, not all the time. She needs to. She nothing good happens after midnight? Isn't that what they say? That is a very good point. I haven't really pulled a midnighter. But anyways, we're getting off topic here. I have something I'd like to talk about that really has bugged me. I'm nervous. That's why I said, why are you excited? I knew it was something I can tell, But why do you guys go straight to it's y'all? Well, because you were like, I have something to talk about, hit record, I'm like, oh, that that gives us no chance of the process. That kind of feels like an am and Marcus here's that's even extra terrifying, Marcus counting on it. No, I have zero friend is shoes. I have the best queendom ever you guys, although I didn't feel a little attacked yesterday on our queendom text message because of my I went on a few dates in l A and UM and marks like material here for it? Y I know a little? Is it? The person I'm familiar with? My body is not a wonderland. I can't talk anymore because I'm just eased. Please don't edit it out so good. I'm blushing blushing that but it wasn't even about that. It was it was about uh something else that he was Why don't even bring up queendom. There's nothing that goes on in that chat we can talk about. I found the one thing and I posted it. It It was like the yeah you about yeah, literally, well and so, but you guys were like calling me out basically because there was one thing with one guy where I said, you know, he's okay, mm hmmm, he likes the color blue. Okay, Okay, got it, what you have to use, He's not going to enjoy it until it's politically incorrect. I could get possibly because it's a belief system, okay, And so maybe I would well know, everyone knows I'm a Christian, Okay, so you went out with somebody who didn't, who wasn't a Christian? Is that fair to say that's it? Yes? Great? And so I had just look at Mark like he's a dad. I'm like, tell us, yes, no. But I realized how important that is for me for the other person to have that same quality or same belief, same belief, same belief for not only what I want in my life, but like my children. And why am I like tiptoeing over like the fact of them when you get canceled for that, like, I shouldn't feel tiptoeing over like what my belief is. Tanya has talked about this at length to Tanya is now dating a Jewish person. She's very shocked by that because she always said she would never date a non Christian and so that's been an adjustment for her. But that's been a very interesting storyline for her coming around to that. The person that I went on a date with was Jewish, okay, and so thank you for like, because I'm like, I just feel like you can't say and I'm like, I'm like, why can't I talk about my faith without And so I'm I hope, I'm glad that Tanya has talking about that. That's great. It makes me feel a little better. Um, but yeah, And so I basically went into my queendom chat and said, I'm now realizing how much this means to me. And we sat down and we had a really this guy is like great, you know, like really good dude, and um and he's Jewish and it has nothing and I have no problem with that. The only problem not problem, but it's like what I want from my family and my kids and is it can we pray to the different things and that's still work in a relationship for what I want now because before I could probably give I wouldn't care at all. Um, not that I won't care at all, but like I could never date an atheist, just because that would be really tough for me, so staring at me. So I basically went into queendom and said like, hey, guys, like everything checked boxes, but this was like a big thing, and this is a big thing for me. But then Pam's like, well, then why haven't you got rid of the other dude that is also Jewish? So why is that one My beef with other dude is not that he's Jewish? Suck? So I think that that's a pamelin and the defense attorney. All she was doing was saying, here's one way we can get rid of this guy once and for all, because everyone's every time I'm like, oh, look at he texted, and they're all like snows, like they're sending like snooze emojis and like he's so boring. Like if people knew how mean we are to you sometimes chat, I don't mean though, I was just like, wait, how did I miss this. I don't know. I don't think. I don't think I'm a tough love girl. I'm just saying I have a lot of jokes in there, but I don't think I. I was just more shocked that I missed this huge piece of information and like why, I'm like the last few people I've not continued having more dates because they of their faith based Yeah, Pamelan was just going, listen, this guy's gotta go. If you're gonna do it for when, we gotta do it for the other. And I'm going, whatever gets this guy out of this group chat once and for all, because I'm so over him. This is like the most this is the least interesting human I've never talked to in my entire life. If you're a guy of a guy equivalent of a corporate email. Every time he texts thank you Janna, that was lovely. I'm like, we can't have Christmas with this guy. I'm friends giving sucks. I'm bored already. We are all dating him, it matters. That's the thing you have to understand. Because we were all dating him, we don't want to invite him the Easter, and now we can't any I wish I could say his nickname because his nickname describes how I feel about him. But it's sucking transcends religion. What sucking transcends all religions. So the question is why are you still with him? For or not? Not? You know with him, but why you? Why is he still in your life? If your friends can't stand him? To me, that would be a major red flag. He's not fun Jewish guy. I can do fun Jewish guy. I'm excited for fun Jewish guys. The other one is fun Jewish guy. I don't even know that the other one Jewish. We went on one day. We don't even know him. We don't know any of them, but we don't, but some of us felt like we knew the first one. So this is boring Jewish guy, the most boring human b j G. Okay, that has nothing to do with Ian boring. But what but Jan, it doesn't that affect you that your friends have this opinion of him? That's a really good question. That's actually a really good question. Mark, what we're with? Mark? Always when Mark asked, she has to answer it? Actually doesn't I do that answer? And and every other person I would I would want if they didn't like my whatever exploit like which you know they ended up not but like I would be like peace out. But there's something about this guy, or if there's something about this moment in your life. It's a nat Gio episode and we are here for the chase. It's a huntress on the prowl to lock this boring assid he's not interested or he's playing hard to get, he's playing impossible. So he gives enough this I've carefully to sect did dissected, dissected. Um. He gives her enough, but it's not anything, but it's enough. Like I saw it yesterday, bread crumbing. Uh huh yeah, what's smaller than a bread but very unavailable bread crumbing. Yeah, it's like disappearing bread crumbs. I'm like, I think that was it. It's gone. I can't tell. I don't know. Now I'm lost in the woods and we're still we're still here, but you really don't. You didn't let us talk to him, like every other guy was like, oh I want you to meet him, I want you to talk to him. He's like this one's like off limits. Yeah. Like when he would ever FaceTime, I would run away normally anyone else on FaceTime I'd be like, well, these are my friends, and I like I run in the other room. What does that say, Mark? Yeah, is that because you know he sucks and they're going to get your patient about it? Or you want to keep this just you and him? You want to keep this private. What's the motivation here? Why is this different from other guys? That's what I'm trying to get at. So he started off as just he was the start of my like hawk grow summer, just very fun. We had fun, flew out to meet him a few times. We had fun, like it was. It was a good time. But there's something very mysterious and um impossible. I mean there definitely is like deep deep, deep deep down, there's definitely something in me that's like, of course I want to be the one that like he chooses because he's such a hard one to get, like he's so unavailable that I'm like and this is like, this is my issues from like way back in my twenties. So there's a little piece of me that that Janet that kind of comes up. There's a piece that just wants to have fun and know that that's which is what it is. Like my therapist is like when it stops being fun. You need to like stop. But like, there's also the other piece of me. It's like, well, maybe like because I know that I'm the longest person he's hung out with since his divorce. But don't you think that if you did land him whatever that means to you, it would immediately get not fun and boring? Can I answer that? Like? Why are we hunting him? I know I'm done, I'm done. I am I'm done. I'm over it that when I got the black heart the other day, I'm done, I'm done. I deserve better. You do deserve absolutely deserved. He sent you a black heart because he has a black heart. No, no, I sound like this cute little like video when I was on set the other day and then all these times back was just a black heart? Wait you, it's not engaging. Did I realize that it was a video that I sent queendom? Realized that you've actually sent it to him and he sent you a black Hearty? What does that mean? You have to go get a black heart? There's intention there? What does that mean? I don't know. Let's call him up? Could we not? Because I already fell asleep? Thank you? No? It did it? Didn't know we we had it. We actually did have a conversation and um, and he was like, you know, I'm like protecting you from like my personal detachment issues. And so I'm like it was basically the call like I'm into you, but I'm just not that into you kind of call. So I'm like, I get it now. So I'm I'm I'm detaching. You do what seem like? You're detached? You don't see Mark? Do you want to get on the queendom chat? Oh my god, if Mark was on chat you would die. Um No, I am you can detacht like you can care about him, and then you can also make him go away. I promise you. I'm like, I know that he's not my person. That I can one thousand percent say with certainty and clarity. That's why you probably don't care what we think. Yeah, because it's not like you think you're actually going to ultimately end up with him. Can I go back? I mean I wish I could say I don't know what's his nickname. You know what it is, but it says his name, so I can't. It's not like Waddle Like with Swaddle, I could talk about spattle right now and Swaddle doesn't know who saddle that one. We had to wrap up like a little baby and hold him. We needed Jana really bad, right, uh huh, So what's what's the end game? Or maybe it's changed, but what was the end game? If you knew he wasn't your guy? Well, so I don't reach out to him anymore. Yeah, yeah, so I'm just like, but what was the end It was really attractive to her. The goal was the fling. He was really fun for Hot Girl summer. Yeah, great connection. We had a great connectical connection. Yeah, physical connection. We have good deep conversations. Did you shake your head when we talk when we're together, Yeah, when we like, I love like he's very intellectually and like intelligent and so that was. And he's older, you know, he's upper forties, so um yeah, it was like it was it was and I will say this too, because he was always kind of busy working. I was able to go to these really cool places and then just be alone during the day and me like have fun in the city and I got to write and like I really got to Like I sent the girls a photo when I went to um this one part of California, and I was just like if anything, like he gave me like this adventure piece of me, Like I got to really adventure and fly alone and be alone all day, you know, almost all night to just like having fun and like you know, just exploring new cities. B Yeah, for sure. So it sounds like he was great for this season of your life. But it's fall now. Yeah yeah, hawk Girl Summers over fall in love is here and we cannot fall in love with boring guy. No, no, no. And he he basically kind of said it to like, you know, he's like I'm dating other people, and you know, he basically gave me that like I'm into you, but not that into you. Well, if he was into you wouldn't have to. Yeah, so I'm over it. Having said that, I'm over it, I am. I'm over it. I haven't. I haven't contacted him anymore, just you know, since Yester, since yesterday at three pm. No, but I'm done. I'm not going to reach out to him again. Yeah. That's well, all relationships what they come into your life for a reason. This season for a lifetime, you know, he was he was a really fun season. But the whole point was my girlfriends were like, why are you like, because he was Jewish. So she's like, they're like, why are you? But again to me, I know, he wasn't my forever, so like, I don't, I didn't care. You're just it's a different reason, Like you're literally going out for different reasons with different guys. You know what I mean? A reason a sports season or a lifetime. Oh man, you know what. I feel like we almost should save my other topic for another day because we have an amazing guess coming. But it's just so good. Did she hear yet? Oh she's not here? Okay, great, we're gonna talk about. This involves someone that I had a season with last year, right I I am a little peeved. Yeah, I said the word peeved. I'm furious you heard it here at first. So when this person and I were hanging out, I named his beer company? Is this the tell all part of it? I named it? I've proof. Okay. Now, this person also got very angry that he named someone else's business and wasn't getting compensated for It's not it's not it's not uncommon to be upset about that. It's not uncommon to be upset about I cannot handle all of that today. I love this much about that. So I even gave the whole like what it stands for, how you should promote it? And then he would send me what is this design? I was like, this design looks great. So then I get a call from Decker Jesse James because I also told her, and she goes, oh, it's out, and I go he did not use the name, oh and the same design and my promo for it. So here's my thing. I'm not asking for a check, you know, like, I get it. It's fine. He could have at least email here's my beef email and say, you know what, thank you for the name. We're going forward with it, and I appreciate it. That's all I wanted is branding genius. But like, is that wrong of me to be upset about that? Or no, call me out? Please call me out. I'm never going to call you out because this happens to me every day of my freaking life. What do you mean? People take my words all the time, so and it annoys me. I had a friend of mine who named their son Legend unfriend who in Michigan. But I was like, it was like two months after he was born, and I was like Bye, I don't think this is I don't this is my life. I'm the ghostwriter. I do not. I think you have every right to be annoyed, and I think you should have gotten anymail. Yeah, I agree, and ey's the email for legal reasons. But if he says an email, he's admitting that you came up with it. I have proofs between him and his partner saying I think doesn't have two choices. I think you pursue financial compensation or you have to let it go. But could I actually pursue financial compensation if you have I would talk to an attorney about that. But if you have proof, then probably what if they have an ambassador program? She could link it and get her money back because I don't like a beer. Okay. All I'm saying is it just would if I'm not going to go after money like although because again I was in this very brief relations wouldn't call it a relationship, very brief dating stint with this person. It just would be nice to say hey, because I mean people steal not strongs, but like songs, different song titles all the time, and how many songs are they're like, um, whiskey or what? What whatever, but like just something being like I mean, wine down wasn't even close to that one girls, but I still was like, I'm sorry, and you know, like how can we make this or because I didn't even know, but this person knew took what something my name that I made for it. But then also I did give it to this person. But then my thing is, I'm like, then, why were you so upset about the other person's business that you named? So it's a little bit of hypocrisy on his on his side, but that's part of the reason he's no longer in the roster anyways, hypocrisy Mark, What do you think talk to a lawyer or just let it go? I think I think you have to let it go unless you want to pursue a legal action. That's different. But if if not, I don't think it's worth reaching out to him. I don't think you know, it's like they say, you'll be much happier if you accept the apology that you never received. I think you have to go to that mode right now. And I think a break from legal action sounds really good for all of us. I agree, and also I just I also I would have just loved an email that's it. That's all I would have what goes when it comes around though, I really do believe that. Mm hmm. Well anyways, um, let's take a break and then we're going to get Lisa on, who is just an angel. I gotta go grab a beer. Okay here, I'll give it to It's for free, so I know. Well, first of all, we have a massive off air catchup to do because we we Oh my god, I can't wait to hear all of it. Um. So Lisa has been like my I mean, you've truly just been like been on the journey with me and I've just been it's been such an honor to be um just you know, with your words and um going through what we both have been going through. And I just I've I've looked up to you for so long, so much so that Christen to my friend here, she just screamed, knowing that she didn't know that you were coming on. I didn't know it was you. I needed a minute to get myself together, right because she's epic. Yeah, I've bought a lot of your books for a lot of my friends. Thank you. That's so kind. And I wish I was there in the studio with you, but in your lap it would be awkward. She really really UM. Okay, so you have your new book out right now, but first I just want to say, like, how how are you doing? I want to just do you have a little heart check in first, a little heart check? Thank you? I love heart checks. UM. I feel like I'm sitting with my therapist right now because he always says, let's do a check in. So, um, you know I'm doing really well, Janna, I UM. I think healing from relational trauma. UM, whatever relationship it is, is long, and I think it it takes a while, and it should take a while. I think to the level that you love people is to the level that you're going to experience hurt. And so when you love deeply, you hurt deeply. And I think that there will be layers of this that I unpacked for years to come, because for me, it's not just the facts of what happened. The longer part of my healing journey has been the impact that all of this has had on me, and so well, I think I can forgive and and quickly more quickly moved through the facts of what happened. That's like accepting it and grieving it and deciding to move on from it as I've moved moved through it. But I think the impact of this is going to be something that leaks into my life for years to come. And I think that's okay, Yeah, it's it's interesting you say that too. I was just talking to UM. I was on a panel the other day and we were saying UM, and even with my therapist too. You know, people say, UM, like do you think you have to be over it? And I'm like, in today's society, it's like, why haven't you moved on yet? Or the person that hurts you? Why haven't you moved on yet? If this happened whatever, like get over it, move on. And it's like grief and trauma and UM. You know, things that hurt can come up in different times in your life and different moments, and it can be you have you have to process that, you know, instead of shoving it down. And I think people just think it's like, all right, be be over it, be done with it, and it's like it doesn't work that way. Well I wish it was. I wish it would, UM, but I just I haven't seen that to be the case. I mean, things in my life too. I'm like, why am I now just feeling these emotions? And my therapist is like, that's grief, like, and that's that's you know, those are experiences that you had with your X and they're gonna come up at different times and you're gonna feel different things. But then I don't know about you, but I'm like, I shame myself and go I should be over this. Why am I crying? Does this mean I'm not healed? Or does this mean I'm like going the wrong way? So how do you kind of navigate that? Well? Also, I think part of it is that we get triggered in our pain. I'm not really sure why my iPhone sends me memory pictures like this this on this day four years ago, and then this this picture or this movie that they've set to like this lovely music, and you know, those memories used to be my greatest gift and now sometimes they're my greatest struggle. And I think memories work that way. You know. Grief to me is like dreaming in reverse. And what I mean by that is like, well, usually when you dream, you're looking forward to something, but when you're grieving, you look back at what you thought was or maybe what was, and you want to try to go backwards, but you can't go backwards. So that's why, to me, grief is like dreaming in reverse and it it's it's a process. But also what complicates it for me is those triggers. So like when a memory pops up on my phone and I didn't invite it. I didn't go shopping for pain and I didn't look for it. It just comes and all of a sudden, I'm in the grocery store and I find myself bending over, like putting my head down on the banana display, and the poor underpaid fruit attendant is looking at me like, ma'am, back away from my bananas. You know he doesn't. He doesn't get paid enough to deal with women like me, and um, you know, those triggers. We can't time them. That's part of the issue with triggers. They just hit us apre at the grocery store, or if we're helping our kids with their home work, or if we're out having a you know, a lovely dinner with our friends. You can't time a trigger. I wish I could schedule triggers hitting me like I wish it could be like Tuesday night, I'm going to be in a bubble back taking communion and uh, you know, having like crazy music on and all, you know, and just like and then I can just cry and cry and cry it all out. But you can't time triggers. But I started to look at it now, Jamna, is that's a grace from God because it's letting those triggers, are really letting the full impact of this leak into our life in bite sized pieces where we can deal with it, because maybe God knows, if the full impact would have hit us all at once, it may have really killed us. M. I've used it too, is like a way to show up for myself a little bit like the ambush. Um. So I've been heavy into grief and trauma therapy for like the last how many months five um. But one of the things she had mentioned to me was to sit and give, you know, like I give my kids fifteen minutes of floor time a day, and so she said, to give your grief fifteen minutes of floor time of day, like turned towards it, ask what it needs from you. So when the triggers happen, it feels like an ambush to me because I'm like, I didn't. I'm not looking at you right now, I'm not asking for you right now. But I feel like the stronger part of me is is showing up for myself in the way that like when I do get triggered, I say it, or I'm dealing with it because I'm a compartmentalizer, you know, like I'll just go, Okay, well that hurts, and then I swallow it's hard to swallow, and then I put it away. But if I can, you know, turn to my husband or whoever's with me and say like, you know, I don't like this, or this hurts my heart, or this is making me feel this way. It's like really standing in my own self and showing up for myself a little bit more than I had before instead of just going that's obnoxious. And I do want to get to my bubble bath at Tuesday night at eight p m. And I'll cry about it. Then. I love that thought of turning toward it and asking, you know, the grief, what what do you need for me? I really love how you phrase that. I'm going to use that thank you. You should use that. You're a magical human. I have a question to you because you've written so many obviously you know forgiving what you can't forget, and I mean, there's there's so many amazing books you've written. But is there something in there where you're like, I still struggle with this piece of it, where you almost feel like I wrote this, But am I not not a hypocrite? But like, um, like that you still struggle with that piece. Yes, of course, I give myself permission to still be on a journey. And I'm pretty clear in my books like this is not this is not like an art to perfect. This is a journey to take and you are going to have setbacks. I'm going to have setbacks. And I think acknowledging that to my reader even while they're reading the book gives them permission to understand that they're going to have setbacks too. And it's it's not about having a setback. It's really about taking the setbacks as they come and determining to still get back up and if you need to lay down for a while, lay down for a while, but but then don't get stuck there, like, let's get back up, Let's get back on track toward the goal of of healing from this and and not only healing from it. But I think we all have a choice when we go through something hard, is this going to be something that permanently add something to me or permanently subtracts something from me? And I feel like when you go through relational trauma, it's already taking enough. So I'm not willing to let this subtract anything from me. I am willing to let this add things to me, like even more compassion for other people and even more compassion for myself. And so, yeah, I have setbacks, but I also have compassion for myself when I have those. M H. I mean, obviously, I know we talked um during your very public breakup, and how are you with that now? Walking through that with especially you know, the um being so heavy in the Christian world, and like, how how are you dealing with outside opinions and voices that I know you know you've at times struggled with. Yeah, Well, one thing I did proactively, I'll answer how I'm doing a second, but I want to get this little part in. One thing I did proactively was some of the Bible verses that I felt like maybe weaponized against me or I've heard weaponized against other people, such as God hates divorce. Okay, that's a really tough verse from Malachi. And what I decided to do is, you know, get proactive and really look into the real meaning, intention, and context of those verses, so that I didn't hear statements like that and get defensive, but rather I was already educated to be able to answer them intelligently. And here's what's interesting about that particular verse is that in the original language, before the King James version, that interpretation of that scripture was never there. It only started God hates divorce only started at the King James version before that, what that verse actually said, when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect. So you see me being educated on that when people say, well, you know, and people not a lot of people have said this to me, but I've heard it so much that I can hear it in my head, people saying it's me, God hates divorce. I do believe God hates what divorce does two people. And I think we've all kind of heard that sidestep, you know, But I wanted to be educated and say, did you know, like what in some versions of the Bible have discorrect interpretation. So I say, let's get several versions of the Bible and let's actually open it up to that verse in Malachi. And they're shocked when they see that in some versions it says God hates divorced, but in other versions it says when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect. So me being educated makes me a whole lot less defensive and a whole lot more intelligent in my response to that. And I think I've felt empowered to be able to talk about how I'm doing now using some of that intelligence, because this is both a heart thing and a head thing. Um for me, Um, I will always be sad that my marriage of thirty years ended. I will I will always be sad, But I look at it now that while that is a part of my life, it is not the sum total of my life. And you know, it is scary to try to figure out where do I go from here? You know, I'm not young like you are. At least this is why we have to have our after talk, because I told you, like you, you've got to stop doing that to yourself, like you're beautiful, you're successful. There I'm She always says, like, you're younger, You've got time. I'm like, you've got just as much time to find someone that is going to love you and treat you the way that you deserve to be treated. I agree with and that like breaks me when you sit because I'm like, I'm like, I gotta I wish you could. I could you could see yourself from like how we see you, and like how I know someone that is deserving and will love you will see you. And I don't know how old you are, but I don't know how old you are, but I will tell you this, I would rather find a man in the older years of life to date. Like to me, I don't even know, so say you're say you're forty. I would rather be dating forty and up than to try to do this at thirty because I feel like there's some wisdom if you can find the right one. Let's like, but there is some wisdom that salt and pepper wisdom is what I call it in our house. But like you know, there's something that you gain as you get older, whether you're a man or a woman, and I would rather date that or lean towards that. Well, you also know yourself so much better. Yeah, it's like, you know, I'm going through divorce after fifteen years and I'm thirty eight, and it's like, man, I am such a different person when I last date it. You know, it's like I don't even know what to do because I'm just it's just all new, which is scary. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely scary. But the best part of my life was after my divorce. I was divorced once before, Jake from State Farm, not the popular one Lisa, and my whole life was on the other side of that, and it was the darkest time of my life. M M. I'm sor during it daring dark. There's shame that comes with divorce, people saying they were disappointed, and just I felt like I was already down and they just kept kicking and I was. I was like, I'm I don't even like it was like I surrender, you know, Yeah, I understand that, and I'm I just grieve every time someone has this as part of their journey. So thank you for sharing both of you that I um, you know I want I'm fifty three, just so let's just put that on the way. I don't know what you're up to and let's put that in the after show. You're so sweet. Um, So, I guess what I mean by I'm older now. What I mean by that is, you know, being married almost thirty years, I had so cemented in my brain where my life was going. And so when I say I'm old now, it's not that I feel like I'm too old or past the stage where you know, I can still find, you know, a different version of my life that will be happy and joyful and wonderful and all of that. I think what I mean is it's it's a very hard shift to make when you really thought your life was going this way, and it had been for three decades this way, and then now my life is going this way, and I I am working really hard to make sure that my in goal here is not to find another man or another husband or anything. I If that happens, that's amazing, and I'm open to it now, which I think in some of our earlier conversations, Jana, I was not open at all. And that's all I want you to have. I just want you to be open. Well, hope deferred makes the heart sick, so we don't need the hope deferred Okay, well, thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad my kids are listening to this because they are huge wind down. Okay, well for the people in the back, but I'll just say that, Um, you know, I'm open to it, but I don't see that as the ultimate sign of redemption. I can. I can find redemption by living a life that still is honorable to my kids and um, and that still honors who God cre needed me to be. I love that so much. I think that's like where I've finally, Lisa, I've gotten to where I'm like, I the man doesn't define my worth or my redemption story. It's like, my redemption story is the healed, happier version with me and my kids, And like how like that that is? Like, and I think that's the same. It's going to be the same for you. I mean, if you keep looking for your worth and a man, you're never gonna you're never gonna find it, or that that to be there, like look and I'm finally happy. It's like, no, I'm actually finally happy who I am today without being like yeah, of course, you know, I love would love the companionship, but the right companion, the right companionship, and I want to be settled in my heart. You know, it's like more than just happiness. I want to be settled because you know, when you've got these feelings that I'm longing for something and I need that something to make me feel settled. Um. I want to feel settled on my own before I get into any kind of future relationship if that's in store for me. UM, so that I'm not looking to have them right some of my wrongs or or how I've been wronged, or even to make me feel a certain way. I want to feel a certain way so that I can bring that into a relationship and grow a relationship from there. Absolutely, I really feel like the dusted off version of you is going to be your most favorite version of you. M thank you, and it keeps coming to me. So I just have to say it, thank you. I'm gonna rub that in my heart, do it. I can't handle what's happening. Autographed my baby Lisa. So you have a new book out called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, UM Loving Others without Losing It's a release date. It's November eight. So you have a new book coming out in November eight. Good boundaries and goodbyes, loving others without losing the best of who you are and to art. Is there a pre sale link that we can we can link to it right now? Yes, yes, absolutely, Um, it's available for free sale at you know, many different retailers. For sure. I am really excited about this message, And let me tell you why. The number one reason I'm so excited about this message is because I lived a long portion of my life misunderstanding boundaries and almost feeling as a Christian woman that I didn't have permission to draw the same kind of boundaries that other people could draw because maybe it was on con or maybe it was a little bit un Christian or whatever. I had so many misunderstandings. So I lived a life before I understood boundaries, and now I'm living a life now that I have a proper understanding of boundaries. And I am so grateful for what I've learned in the research and the writing of this book. And probably the biggest lesson is boundaries are not just a good idea, They're actually God's idea. So if there are Christians that are listening, you know to that have the same feeling of like resistance to boundaries, or anybody listening that has resistance to boundaries, I just want to say that they are so foundational to even the way that God created the earth. In creation, God had boundaries the very first conversation God ever had with another human, in his first recorded conversation with Adam. The whole purpose of the conversation was to establish a boundary where the room lines were and where they were not. And so I just feel like I have been so set free, and I'm I'm so eager for other people to have access to this information, and I just think it's life transformative. And then also the goodbyes part is, in all the years of me growing and learning, I've never been taught how to say a good goodbye, and I've fumbled that quite often in previous goodbyes. And now I just feel better equipped. Even if the good and the goodbye has nothing to do with the other person, even if that goodbye in essence was really awful and hard and everything in my heart, I can settle it as I'm going to give a good goodbye even if I never get that back in return. But I'm going to walk away with this and from this, and I'm not going to add the added burden of regretting how I said goodbye. So I think both sides of it, the good boundaries and goodbyes are just going to be very profoundly helpful for people. They have been for me. I think I can't wait. I can't wait just because I'm getting better with boundaries, but I feel like I struggle where I still don't want to upset someone someone else's feelings. So it's sometimes I've gotten I mean, way better, but it's still I go to the well I don't want them to be upset or I don't want them to be hurt. So I'm gonna just kind of and again, I've gotten better, but I still feel like I do that in certain situations. And you know what, Dinna, I think it's so interesting that you're saying that, because I have felt that too. I still feel that tension a little bit. Um. I don't want to disappoint people and so, and I guess to some extent, I have been afraid if I don't do this, then they're going to be upset with me, They're going to be disappointed in me, they may reject me, they might walk away from me. But if that thought hops into my head that that person is going to be disappointed in me, um that they may reject me, they big walk away from me. Then that's an indication that I'm in a relationship with that person probably eventually is going to disappoint you know, see me as a disappointment, reject me, and walk away from me. So that can't be my reason not to draw a boundary. Healthy people appreciate healthy boundaries. It's only unhealthy dynamics and and unhealthy people that resist boundaries. And usually it's the people who need boundaries the most to respect them the least. And so I personally think that when we say boundaries, it can feel like, oh, I'm putting this boundary on someone else, and ultimately we know we can't control another person, So that's that's a wrong tactic to put it a boundary on someone else. What we really need to do is to boundary are our self, and it's not to be controlling or manipulous. It's so that we can keep ourselves safe and healthy, so that we can give the very best to that relationship. Yeah, I've I've kind of started rephrasing because for some reason, boundaries to me just sounds like harsh or like hard. So I feel like, now I'm kind of going more like, Okay, how do I honor myself in this moment? Like what do what do I actually need? Do I want to be alone? Like? So sometimes I over a plan with like three different people, you know, and then I'm just like I didn't really want to be doing any of this stuff, but I don't want to sound like, Okay, what what is honoring myself look like in this moment? Do I do I want to go out tonight or do I want to just stay in and be alone? So it's like I think sometimes that helps me in a way rephrase it because I don't know why boundaries just seem so like negative to me, and I that's that's my own, my own issue, and I know I need to work past that to look at boundaries as a healthy thing. I've read somewhere that I um it is, boundaries are not against anyone, but they are for you. Well, but see, I think you know what I think just came up and saying that is in my relationship with my ex husband, boundaries were made to be so negative. And so you know, it's like because I had to set certain boundaries and I was and I was made to feel terrible for those boundaries, even though it was something for his recovery. Was it really your boundaries though? Or were his boundaries? Well? I had some of my own, Like I don't want you to go to a strip club. I don't want you to be boundary in the morning, not you. But either way, the boundary got in a negative and then it's my fault for having those boundaries. So that's where like I need to almost retrain that I'm madly in love with boundaries and has no negative context to me at all. It is like everything the people that expect them. I love the word it's hot to me. Actually the whole title boundaries and good boundaries and goodbyes. Well, I've never heard anyone say that one of my book titles was hot. So thank you this. You definitely don't know Christian but Lesa. You understand though, right like having to feel that I do, I do. So let me give you three new words that um that have really helped me a lot. It's access, responsibility, and consequences. So to the level that I give someone access to me is to the level that I need to require them to be responsible with that kind of access. So let's focus on these two words first. So if I give someone level ten access to me, but they're only willing or capable of bringing level three responsibility, the distance between the amount of access I'm giving me giving them and the level of responsibility they're giving me, that distance is dysfunction. So and it's also a need for a boundary. But I know that I cannot force the other person. I can ask them to lift up their level of responsibility, but to the level of access I've given them. But if they are unwilling or incapable of anything more than a level three responsibility, then it's my responsibility to put a boundary on myself and reduce their level of access down to a level three. So there's equilibrium in the relationship again. Otherwise the third word consequences. Otherwise we are both going to suffer consequences because of the difference between the access and the responsibility. And that has helped me so much. And what I mean by access is how much access am I giving someone physically to me? How much access am I giving someone emotionally to me? And a actually um financially um, even in my capacity, you know, like you gave a good example, like I've agreed to go out with three different friends tonight, but I really just want to stay at home. So you've given them access to capacity and you can express to them I don't have the capacity to do this. But if they sort of are demanding back, then they're not being responsible with what you have said, and that is I have limited capacity. So part of it is our responsibility to communicate what we need for someone to have responsibility for the level of access that we've given them. But once we communicate that, then if they do not honor it, then we can't keep trying to get them to up their responsibility. We must then be responsible enough for ourselves to reduce the access been explained ever by are That's why she's like, my like soul, like, this is why boundaries are hot, because it's just it's the excess regulator. That's all it is. Do you feel better? Do we have circled back the hot? We're going to keep doing that. So there's that, that's right. I told her. I was like, I go way one of my kids this weekends. I'm like, we're going out, We're getting dressed up, I'm doing your makeup, We're going like the town, so maybe to Florida. I don't know. We'll talk and I will give you a little tidbit because this year I've focused on working on myself rather than spending so much time trying to talk to other people into being responsible with the access that I've given them. It's freed up enough time for me to get really healthy, and I've lost over forty pounds for you. Actually reports today I'm actually wearing being shorts at the beach. You are as long as I love you, I just I just want you to feel good because you are just You're beautiful inside now and I just so thankful for our friendship. And I cannot wait to read this new hot book spoke out. Um, can we please please please please please please catch up off air this weekend. I would love Okay, I will call you this weekend. Um, but thank you so much for coming on. Girls. Do you have anything else? I mean there's a million things, but we've already just add the book to cart Yeah, I know. I'm like, I wanted to write down a couple of things you said, and I was like, it's okay, it's recorded. Yeah. Um, thank you so much, friend, and I will I'll call you this weekend. That's awesome. Okay, and hey, if either of you want to call me too, we're now all three friends after that day. Absolutely that she just gave her might not I'm going to talk about healthy accent, Lisa, for giving what you can't that you're going to be responsible with the accent. I am super responsible, but I love really hard. I'm not intent all the time, but once I know I can be intense. She just snuggled. I love your confessional. Let's do more of that great girls trip here we come. All right, friend, thank you so much. Thank you all right by Henny. So beautiful, isn't she inside? I know what. I just shorts Lisa hot shorts. I just I love um. She's because I called her when UM we connected, because we did Mike and I did a podcast with her and then I called her UM. I don't know if I can share it yet, but I did write about it in something that I'm working on UM, and I gotta ask for her permission even for that, but she gave me so much good advice and information, and since then, like we've just become like we have like checkens. I love that because she's just and I just love, you know, the Christian woman that she is, and like I've leaned obviously more into that and so just to have her voice and um strength and opinions and then like I love how vulnerable because like we're all, you know, we're all all that little peace in us that just feels like we might not we might be done. I'm like, you're not. And that's I was like, oh, I was like, you know, you're not done. It's not don't worry about your age or you know. It just feel overwhelming though too, you know, like the rebuild, but even though tears that she brought here, and it's like I just like I feel because I like, you know if I don't know if you ever feel it too, cat like being you know, almost divorced. Now it's like you just we're all okay alone, but there's still the yearning for that little bit of that love. And I was like, I'm going to adopt a child and I will just never be married. That's what I thought. Well that's what I think. Well, that's definitely what I mean. I think it was game over, not interested, But I mean it's interesting hearing her say like her age or whatever, and like, well I'm older than you, Janna, like you can still go out. Well, you know, I have it in my head, well I'm not as pretty as you, Janna, like you can still go out. You know. We all have like something something there that's like you feel like it's holding you back, you know. So it's all very It's good to hear someone like that, And from the Christian point of view, I love that because there is a lot of pressure in the church. There's a lot of a lot of darkness and divorce to for Christians. Like I felt the weight and heaviness of it the minute she said it. It It just all came back to me. It was just like this shame like knockdown, knockdown, knockdown. And I think it's gotten better a little bit probably then from even went through it. But yeah, I mean it's it's tough, and our quality of friendships is different. Can you imagine to like someone who is you know, she speaks so much in that world, than to have to be faced with that and it's like in something she didn't want. Yeah, you know, this wasn't He was not faithful, he was not a good man to her, and it's like having not stripped from her too, even though she heard she tried and worked on it's like it's like it's so that the I was good, Like that unfair. But also there's there is redemption. It's not with the other man. It's redemption and like the beautiful person that she is and who she's helping, like that's that's that's the story, that's the redemption, Like that's the Christian story. A perfect life is not a Christian story. It's the growth and the redemption, forgiveness and boundaries. Hot Hot Love founder by Guys