Have you ever "faked it"?? Jana gets real about being real in the bedroom and what it really means when someone fakes an orgasm.
And Jana sits down with DJ Envy and his wife Gia Casey to talk honestly about surviving infidelity and how to build a strong marriage through trust.
Wine down with Janna Kramer and I heart radio podcast. Stink and I'm so sorry right now, I'm just glad you stink. We'll see who outstinks each other. I'm telling you about glad. This is an audio. Let me tell you about forty and hormones. Yeah, how is forty? It's like great, it's great. I promise come on, come, come, come, come cose with a kick drum. Come come, Janna, come come and the kick drum come come. Um, it's just the hormones to okay, the hormones, like which hormones, all of them just they're all out against me. Um. Yeah, it's just like the sweat. I just feel like I have never and maybe it's just after legend because I was your three year old son. Yep, Jason Leggie are about the same age, which is the same with um Jolian Love. Yeah, we really have a mating season, don't we do? We did? We didn't ship is sailed? Um? Yeah, since I had him, I just feel like I'm but I've also tried natural deodorants and those don't work for me. Um. I feel like like bad, here's my thing, and I really you know, I've I've talked about. I think it was every Um gosh, what's that one natural one I've I've tried a few and they have worked, But I just stink. No, you don't know, No, I do like I need the You always been stinky, like my mom stinky, like I love you. But you know I think I like I just have like a like in my excused always be like refreshing. I needed something to be always would be like and I'm like, hey, that's hurtful. We just look so hot all the time. I need you to stink once in a while. Good for the rest of the America to see sink creamer. Um. It's like when you dig in my head and you're like, is there a weave in there? And I'm like, no, it's all I've got. Please just leave me a little. I'm just very envious of like thick and full hair. I'm envious of you. Well anyways, but I apologize. I just got off a plane, so it's a little Yeah, the show you had a show for I'd like to see out there doing what you're meant to do. Honey, good for you. It was fun. By the way, This is Kristen Brust. She's a local guest. I mean a local guest, an avid guest. I would I say that on a wind down reoccurring reoccurring, Yes, a reoccurring guest. Uncle, you are a local to my heart. And she's so sweet. She wrote me the cutest little sticky note you are stronger than ever. And she wrote these adorable little sticky notes all over my house because she's just she's a gem. Well, I'm here for you, Cramer ever. You're so sweet. Hi, Mark, I haven't seen you in a minute. Hi, Janna, Hi? How are you Ben good? How are you? I'm good? Yeah? It was good. It was It was a very transformation when that's not the right word as it was a shift opening. M Is that good? Yeah? Privotal, pivotal, Yeah, pivotal, pivotal. We're throwing big words out here, and pivotal. You know it's good. I will say I signed up for this UM retreat. I don't want to say where it's at, but I'm so excited. I know it's long, right, it's a week I want to go. I'm I've never been more excited. You should be. That's a really that's like a I don't have you ever done a week by yourself, just chilling, um, focusing on yourself. So I I wanted to. You know, what's really interesting is after my divorce, I was just kind of like, I'm good, Like I knew I wasn't good, but like I think I was. I've been dealing it for was it so long? And then I just kind of wanted to like put band aids on it. Well sure, also survival to say you're good. You had kids to think about, so yeah, um, but I think there was But I did this. Did you see him? And you're so sweet? You're such a good friend. You totally edited my caption because I said steam and not stream, and you're like, hey, best friend, put an R stream. I was like, it's too good of a post, like this is captivating, but I do see an error in line fifteen. If you could just throw an R in there so that everyone doesn't throw rocks in their steam, and then it's gonna I think it's going to really move mountains. This place is really going to help some people. Yeah, so I but I did that. And I tell you what, there were so many things that I was holding onto that I didn't even know I was holding onto. Is this the one you told me that Amy might do with me that will be amazing. Yeah. I mean she made me right on rocks like what I was still holding onto from my past. And I put him in the stream at Sarah's house or like you know, on her land, and it was like insane, like the weight that I felt lifted off of me. It was really incredible. I mean to cerebrize his house with all my rocks, yeah, I'll be like enjoying my peaceful like rocks tossing in stone. I'm like building a damn Oh yeah, um but that's yeah, yeah, okay, but I'm really excited. It's gonna be fun. Yeah, it's gonna be really good for you. What do you do? So it's like this, Um, it's this place where you can read you the thing. It's pretty amazing, basically, I will say this. It's a place where I think for a long time, I have stayed in things because I thought that I deserved it, and I have, Um, I have made I have How do I say this? I've I've stayed in things because I thought I deserved it. I stayed and it was it was all a mirror of how I thought of myself, Like what I thought I deserved, and I think it's realizing like I deserve so much more than that. And but I but I I, I it's like I need And someone told me a really good friend went to this and he was just like he said, it was an amazing place, and just like to really just love yourself because then that's when you're gonna find, you know, and that's when you're going to really attract what you know, um healthy And that makes sense. Yeah, Like I feel like that's the end of the podcast. So it's been great chatting with you that can. But I mean, truthfully, that's it. Like what I keep saying to you is you're like true, like you are stronger than ever. You're getting more whole than you were before. Like the focus on health is what you're really working on. So things that or even people that came into your life a year ago or six months ago or those people may not even fit anymore because you've transitioned into a more whole and healthy human along the way. Yeah, and also realizing like if I see things that are going to bring up my past trauma, like why am I Like that's just not healthy for me to stay in now, you know, And um, you know. And that's the thing, Like I think how a healing because I'm always going to be healing, and I think there was a piece of me for sure that like I always it's like, well, I ever get over my ex. I'm over my ex. I'm over your ex for sure, that's what you're wondering. Yeah, And it's like I don't want to keep It's not I'm not I don't want to keep talking about my ex. Like I want to help. I want to be a voice of like this is how I got through really tough seasons, whether you want to stay or whether you want to leave. But I've forgiven him, like through this last like a few weeks, Like there's something that it's like when I released that, I was like and I saw this thing where it's like I don't need to carry that anymore. And it's like I forgive him a wish it like, and it's like there's like this really amazing feeling and I like and I don't have to hold on to it anymore. And the people are around you should be supporting you in the letting go, yeah, and not you're not that person and so they don't. You don't get to be stuck in that relationship anymore and no one gets to verbally, physically whatever it is, keep surrounding me with the old memories or like. But it was also me though too, Like I for sure it was like I've talked about it all the damn time. Yeah, well he's still very you know, you have kids, I think, yeah, And like they always say, like healing isn't linear all of that, but I think it was just just going through. It's like heard season, it's like you almost have to. I realized now it's like you you really need to. I don't know, because it's like I still I still don't know. I say that, but I'm gonna like I'm not even gonna finish my thought because I feel like you, I think I'm always going to have what quote unquote baggage, I'm always going to have trust issues, I think. I don't know. I don't know if it will ever go away. That's not do you know what I mean? I think it'll go away. And if someone ignite my trust issues, that's going to be I can't stay in that. And you know, like that's something that I know now that it is not healthy for me to stay in something that causes me to like, yeah, backtrack, backtrack, or feel like I'm being in the same thing. But I also but I also think I've let my sorry, I think I've I've been so afraid to let love in. And I think, um, it's because I didn't love myself. I'm watching from my seat, you trusting yourself more, and that's when I think you'll be able to lean into people a little more because you'll trust yourself because no matter what, the bottom, falling out just means you're back with a person that you trust, which is you. It's less intimidating. Yeah, but I also don't want to push people away though either, you know. But there's a reason I think why I push certain people away. There's a gun need to be pushed, there's a gut thing, or there's a whatever, there's something that I'm not listening to and staying ground and end communicating that from a good place. Yeah, And I think that's the work that like I just had like just lightbulb moments with our our therapist Amy and just letting go of like my my, like letting go those rocks, letting go of the like it was just it still sucks, like of sure, of course, but I'm like, I don't I do. I forgive them, I forget like it's it's a it's so nice to just feel it's lighter. It's so much lighter. So in a roundabout version, I'm going to this place just to to cement it, like I'm cementing what I've learned the last few weeks. I'm excited for you to be alone with yourself for me too. And you have to give your phone away and they're like, is that a problem? I was like, I will throw it at you, like to be good. Do you get to write you letters that you need to read you're there camp send you like a snack pack and a letter. I'm so. I was talking to Sharna Burgess, She's so sweet. She reached out to me because she was saying that she, um, you know, she went to when it was life changing. So I'm I just I'm really excited because now I feel like, oh, it's it's sad that I've realized it now, you know, I've had to kind of walk through certain stages of of things, but it's nice to go Okay. I'm really happy to be right here and I feel like finally I'm kind of on the not the other side. But I'm I'm I'm really like tapping into it. You just keep elevating along the way. Yeah it feels good, he does. But you're also getting cozier with yourself along the way. Yeah, I do, Like, yeah, we don't. Well, you are, you're a good person. You should cozy up with yourself once in a while. At my core, I'm a good person. Right at your core, you're a great person. Thank you, And you're a healthy person. You just have to give yourself some time. Yeah, And I don't want to. I don't ever be like defined by like, oh, she's got a lot of issues. It's no I everybody in freaking America has issues. That's why people are listening. It's true. People are just yeah, we all have issues. The thing is that, like everyone just feels like we have to be ashamed of that. It's like the minute you give it light, it can't breathe anymore. It's perfect, you know, like my marriage is not perfect all of the time. Oh amen? Anybody? Yeah, the whole church just said amen. Did you hear them? Like I do? I know I am going through a little phase with myself right now where I'm just like, I need to talk better to myself. I'm hard on myself. So we're just we're all just trying to do stuff. Yeah, And I found myself to like when I don't I love myself, I get I'm not nice to know, and it's like, that's not who I am, that's not whoever like i'm. That's just that's not who I am. I also think there's certain people that don't bring out the best in us too, and it's not their fault, like it doesn't have to be. They bring the triggers and the like the drop and then then it's like, well, well that's not who we are. But then then that's a cycle that's just and at the core, it just may not be a match. Like I was divorced before, had a previous husband before my current husband, and I he's a fine person, he just wasn't my person, you know, like a good dude. And I at some point was like, he is just not going to go live his best life because I'm never going to let him because that's who I am when I'm with him. I need him to be like a cheerleader and you know, and he just was young and I'm like dude timing too. I think people like need to come together at the right time. Yeah. Yeah, The two thousand eight version of me is like same Yeah, two thousand fourteen was hit or missed too, to the point of, um, you don't want to be known as the person with issues. Um. There's a study recently that one of the best things people want to see in a dating app or when they meet somebody, one of the most appealing things about somebody in the first date is to find out that they're in or have been in therapy, because I think the most desirable people are the ones that realize they have issues and are working on them, which is where you are right now. That's a great place to be because so many people live in denial of their own issues, refused to face their own issues, and those are the people that you need to stay away from, and unfortunately you've spent some time with, but that those are the best people, the ones that understand it because we are all messed up in our own ways, and the ones that get that and are working on that, those are the people that you want to be with. Ownership is hot, Mark, Ownership is absolutely and that's the thing, Like I've kind of always said like I don't have the prettiest past, Like I have felt so much shame about my past, and it's like I don't want to carry it. I don't want to have to like feel that. And it's like and I will never judge a human being for you're going to make me cry. This is this is us as we describe UM, Like, I will never judge a human being for anything they do in their past because I give an immense amount of grace to people. I mean to the point where it's Sarah the other day was just like you give so much grace and you give so much um like room and space. Yeah that like it's almost like too much in a way where it's like it's it's now people will take advantage of you. But it's like I just want honesty, Like if I ask you a question about your past, just be honest, right, Like Lou, just be honest. And I think it's like and just what I'm talking I'm not talking relationships. I'm talking like friendships and just like and just having that like you said, like the having the depth and the aware nous of like who you are as a person, like um, you know, doing the work, and I know some people hate that term, but it's like it's it's there's no perfectly healed person. No, there's everyone has their stuff, and it's just not bringing out the worst, but also realizing, you know, triggers that come along the way, and I don't know, it's just I think it's m I finally did sit down with myself and say, I was so shameful about divorce, the most shameful I could be. I was shameful about relationships before that too, because I cared about what people thought so much that I was like, you know, a failed relationship for an EmPATH is like it might as well just be like first degree murder. It's like it just feels like that. It's like, if I've failed at connecting with another human for the rest of my life with one human, then I might as well just be like what's my worth? You know? And what does it say about you? You know? And then I remember just getting to a point where I was like, I am so tired of being shameful because I just love hard. Like when I decide I am going to be with a person, I decide and it is just like aggressive, you know. That's why I'm on your couch right now. When I decide, it's like forever and I that's not a bad thing. In fact, the world could use a few more of us, I feel like. And so instead of it looking like a shameful past to me, it was just like, you know what, I would rather love the wrong people and try really hard or love not They're not bad people, but just the wrong people for me and at least gave my all then have something to show for it than to have not tried it with them. Yeah, And I think where I've had a hard times, I've I've always like I look back my past and like I was just like love me, love me, love me, like you know, And it's just I didn't love myself enough and I and I stood by things that were not good. And it's like if I was to tell my daughter, if I was to tell my friends, what would they say to me? That's how I should look at myself, That's how I should see myself. And you know, I think letting go of the letting really truly go of the past and having that inner forgiveness and his I mean, and you know, to forgive him, it's just letting all that go has just been like I got a piece of me back, a chunk, a big, big, big, big chunk, and then the other chunk is still it will always be. You know, I don't think I'll ever be. No one's like I said, no one's perfect. We're all going to have our moments and traumas and our quote unquote baggage. But you know, I think it's a good job. I think it's good. And then the conscious choice to just reiterate those decisions, like everything you do from the acceptance and the putting rocks in the stream from that, every little step is like compound interest. So every time you don't settle, every time you say you know what, I don't think that's the right person for me, or no, thank you or whatever it is, that's just compound interest on top of a really good choice. So it's the investment you made in the trust in yourself and then the compound interested that like that looks really healthy as it grows. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be. I don't know. I think sometimes we put pressure on ourself because we're so all or nothing that it's like, oh, now I messed up because I accidentally like like you know, liked the wrong person or something, and it's like not really. I think people will come together if in the right time, and yeah, if they're meant to, it always ends up working out. God kind of lets you. Yeah yeah, and God shaping that personally shaping you. It's good. Yeah. Oh, love life friends. I think it's just everything though. It's like how I like how I want to. Even when I was tilding with the airport, I was just like I felt like I was so happy. I was like, hi, you know, just like the that's the O g Jan Yeah, it's like yeah, it is literally like she's back. I felt this. My friend Kat was like, you know what, I'm not putting KB in your cup. She made us all like these like a little customized cup. She's like, I'm not putting Kaby in your cup. I'm putting Kristen because Christen from Detroit needs to come back. And I was like, Michigan, Kristen is in there, and she's just I really like people. Yeah, No, I I same. I was just like I almost I felt that was like I feel like I just feel good. And here's the thing too, which is something I've always wanted to say, is when I got asked to do maybe another book. Um she I love my editor. I know she's listening and I love you. But she was like, let's wait until you have a relationship. And I was like no, Like I I don't want people to say to me, oh, but you like you're so happy and like you look so happy, Like I want to be happy because I'm happy. Well you are in a relationship with myself. Yeah, Like that's the That's like, that's the like, that's what I want people to see. Like I'm happy no matter i'm with I'm with someone, if I'm not with someone, if I'm with my kids, if I'm with you, I just want like that's like, that's me. That's what I want. Like I don't want a man to define my happiness. I don't want you know, my kids, Like, I just want to be myself and happy. Michigan Janel Lake girl like that and I was like I felt that today in the airport and I was like, Okay, I'm here. I had this moment where I was like, well, we get to see each other in July in Michigan, and I was like I was like I need us to just be like laked together toes in the lake sweatshirts. That's not a zackground flood kid, I let you take over the musical interloke. Um oh man, I just think there is I think we I think two things. One, we spend so much time trying to fix things that aren't really broken, and I think we can just pour into ourselves and remember what's good. And too, I think we just take those crap and we just go, Okay, this needs to be fixed, and we do the work. But it's like sometimes there's like the inner you it just needs to be found again too, because I think like pretty things about me got buried by what the things people said about me. They it just got buried. And I'm like, actually, I like me. I like that I'm overly friendly. I like that I know that the Southwest guy is a Sagittarius and his favorite colors green. Like I want I just like people, yeah, you know, yeah, Like I like the person next to me. I want to know too much. I want to know why did I get to meet you today? David? You know? Yeah, And that's how I met freaking Sarah Gretzky was um which you've never met her, but on a plane you have actually this is where we do where because we're doing like a medical house call for people with mom dementia. Fine, everything's fine, that's right. I did a show with you, and I remember now it's all coming back to me. I had watching those years out of my life. But I think the blackout here was wrong, some major blackout years. Um, I don't know how I met you on a plane No, damn me. We meant Texas. Yeah, but it was crazy because I was just like we have like study jumped on each other and you were like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna I'm gonna text you this product. Like but that's what use my coat. I wasn't an influence influence. I liked how we just were so like friendly with each other. And that's what I liked you. I love you well. I will just say this, whether you're in a relationship, whether you're not in a relationship, whether you're single, married, friendships, whatever, just be happy with yourself. And I know that you're okay, flaws and all. Yeah, you're a really great person then and you I was like, I was like talking to everybody else but nothing, they're really great people. Let the noise seep in. Yeah, No, more. No no noise, no noise, no explaining, no noises, no need, no need if you know my heart, no need. Yeah right, cheers. Um, let's take a break and then we've got a really awesome guest on alright, so just let us know when they come out, we'll start talking about that. Okay. So we're going to have a married couple on our show next. Um. Dj Envy who's on the Breakfast Club and Gia his wife. They've been together for twenty years, are married for twenty years, um, living together for twenty seven years. There's like that's older than the people that work on your show. It's older than Riley. Um. So they have a book out right now called Real Life, Real Love. UM Life Lessons on Joy, Pain, and the Magic that holds Us Together, UM, which I love when couples write a book together because I feel like it's so I mean, granted, mind didn't work out, but I knows where we're going. I know that was with the no that I was, but I will just say I think there's something that's still like for the couples that have read the book, Like I had met someone at my show last night, They're like, I read your book. And I was kind of like, oh sorry, just like no, it was so helpful for us because I think everyone's journey to the end is different, but they're still Like. I think there's something about like Mike, what Mike and I were able to do and um and talk about messes in our marriage and then the non perfect stuff and people need to hear that. Yeah, and I think it's um inspiring for other UM couples. And so it just got released in April nine teeth. It's apriline Teeth that's available on Amazon. UM. But in there she wrote, and it's in the press a lot right now, is that she has faked an orgasm for ten years with Homeboy. Well, I mean, I hope it's Homeboy, because if not, she doesn't even look old enough to be married for twenty seven years. She doesn't, but she's stunning. Um. Yeah, she's beautiful. That's a real Could you fake it for that long? I want to talk about it now before they come on because it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I could not fake it. I mean, have you ever faked before? Yeah? I have to. Why do we do that? Marriage? Though? I'll tell you that pressing from low cash is getting after it. He knows how to ride that whatever. Well that was dirty. He got to ride that whatever. He doesn't actually do their writing there. But that's fine. Okay, I'm hot. I have faked it a few times, actually more than a few times in my past relationships. I want to ask specifics, but I go for it. In Mike's marriage, well, we didn't have sex that much for me to fake it, but not a ten times. Um uh, yeah I did, but like not a lot. And why is it just to get it over with or is it to satisfy his ego? So I will say this in my in my relationship with my with Mike, Um, I I didn't care about coming. Does that make sense? I just wanted to please him so badly because I think of my like wanting to feel loved and chosen that I definitely I just wanted to make him happy and that's set then a precedent to not um reciprocate. So that was my fault, okay, I think for sure. And then in the end of it, I was kind of like, all right, homegirl needs to have an orgasm, So like, can I pull out my vibrator or can we Because I'm like and then I started to get frustrated about it because I'm like, you're also dealing with a lot of and it's not even if it's not great sex, then it's like yeah, and that's a huge piece for me. It's like I'm a very sexual person. I love that to be a part of our relationships. Like something happened and I was like, guys, it was even kind of crazy for me, and they're like, if it was something crazy for you, like exiting the building. So but I think, I think, and then just to make them feel good about themselves, I don't know, but I guess, and I never told them. I think I've I've told one person that I that I have and just because it was like I just didn't I don't know, I just wanted to turn you on or whatever, and I just wasn't feeling it. But now I'm like, h like, if we're doing this, like I don't care how long it takes, let's go as like, let's learn each other, Like let's be in this marks Like would you be upset if a girl faked it or your wife? I mean, yeah, my wife and years this summer, so yes, because it's not nearly as enjoyable if it's not mutually enjoyable. So if I'm not doing what I need to be doing, let's figure that out together. Yeah. Like I will say, in previous relationships, there's ben times where I'm like take it or leave it. I could not do that tonight, But in this particular relationship, I'm like down all the time because it's great for both of us. M hmm. I feel like guys could technically fake though I've done it before. You have, I have when I got to go first check my people. Sometimes I'm tired. I just wanted to be and uh, yeah, you know, I've only done a couple of times that I have done it. Oh, I thought you meant sex in general. I was like, wow, but okay. I think it's interesting though, because I feel like with guys, and I'll say this, like, I've definitely been hard on past guys that I've slept with, Like if they couldn't come, I'd be like why I can't like it? Then I made it so personal about that I wasn't pretty enough, I wasn't you know, sexy enough. I wasn't doing the right moves for them, and I made it such a personal and negative thing where it's like guys have probably just as maybe not just as much. I don't know. I don't know y'alls things down there, but like you have you can be mental to where we can be mental, and I feel like we take it. It's like it's so hypocritical of like a woman to be like, how could you not when it's like, but we don't all the time. So it's like I kind of look back and go, oh, I should have been a little softer in those moments. Yeah, because it's like it must be hard for dudes too, actually, because that makes it, That makes it worse if you're hard on them, so to speak, if you may if you if you blame it on things like that and they want to prove to you that it's not stuff like that, then they're really in their head and the next time it's gonna be even more of a challenge because it is such a mental thing. I mean, you could be mentally in another place and still open for business where real structural implications that are affected by our brain, right, Like you might be tired, you might be hungry, like or distracted or sometimes there doesn't seem to be any reason for it, but why do women take it so personal? I would take it personal. I mean I would be so now granted with like my ex it was like, but I bet you wouldn't do that if like and like that's like that was really crappy for me to continue to bring in the past, you know, so like slightly warranted though, but it doesn't matter, like those are my those are my reactions, like I should have handled them. In general. I just never going to give a lot of grace there by my bad. I'm now healing on the other side and trying to like, you know, and I'm just trying to say, like and even in you know, other dating relationships, I just get so down about it, and it's like that's not that's not how it's not fair. Men really do go through it though, seriously, and I have read several articles even just recently about like as they get older, it just becomes like something like they they need sometimes help. That's a real thing. I mean, how many commercials do you see for E D these days? It's constant. There's clearly a major industry happening there. So yeah, it's not a nice, lettered incident. You also have to kind of think of them they're they're a little bit separate because like we wake up with one most days and not because we were having a sexy dream. It's just how that circulation is going through the body in that particular time. It's not process right. It's interesting though, because hearing Eastern you say that you faked it, I would actually be more upset about you faking it. Then you're not coming at all? Does that make sense? But yet I would get more mad at But but then just say these words like it's no big deal. It's just really feels like I'm in fifth grade. I'm sweating. It's no big deal to you. I mean, you know, I know it is. It's fine. You just say, like a doctor, Yeah, well no, I would say that you're semen. Yeah, it's just yeah, it's It's very interesting, how it would you like me to say penis penis, penis penis? You know five? My three year old penist with a tea at the end jays the other day speaking, He goes, I have a vagina, and I was like, oh, well you don't. But you know, we could always talk about that in the future. That's what a eurologist should be called. The eurologist should be called the penist. That would be a much or someone that plays the piano, and it was like it was somewhere between his private parts and the piano. I just can't figure it out. But as a penist, Well, this just got really off topic. But I just want to say, like, let me round around this again. Don't be a hypocrite. If he don't, don't get him all. You know, Um, it's okay if you guys aren't. It doesn't mean he doesn't think you're sexy. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean anything. Sometimes you're just not in it. But just don't lie about it. Don't fake We don't girls, we don't. Let's not fake it, guys, don't fake it. Just be like you're so sexy. That is what I would say, say, like you're so sexy. I'm just so diet or something like give me a little love tap or something like say I'm good looking or something until like lessen the blow if you not Coming's other things they could do as well. What guys if they don't want to do that anymore. Oh So that's where I get like, like, oh no, don't worry about it. And this is where we differ is where we differ. I'm like, you have not completed the job. You have not you have not completed. I do not let a contractor leave my house without things working properly. Yeah, she's right, and you should let him because at least he feels like he got the job done, because he feels like a failure otherwise. Yeah, like I'd rather just be like look at me, Like, let's like there's other things. Can we just talk about how how uncomfortable Catherine would have been on this podcast. Catherine would have been out. I honestly had a vision of her dropping her headphones and rolling. You're welcome Catherine for having this conversation while you're not on here. Oh man, Um, let's take a break. So we are really excited to have both of you on. And obviously you have your new book that um just came out on Amazon and just kind of running through it because obviously I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Um, what for you? I mean, because you guys talked about the infidelity in the book or no, yes you do, okay, so was that a heart? So I wrote a book with my ex who also he's not my ex, but we we wrote a book when we were still together about infidelity and his past affairs. And for you like, was that what? What? Um? Why did you guys decide to write about it? Well, the whole book. We decided to write book as I feel like, Um, it's one thing that that we don't do enough right, you know, especially for men. Right, we can go to the ballbershop and we can talk about our favorite sneakers, our favorite basketball player, we could talk about music, but never do we ever get a chance to talk about relationships. Right. I wish there was a time when I can go to the ballbershop and be like, Yo, my girl is bugging or my wife is bugging. She just did this. What can I do? What do you suggest? We don't have those platforms to open up. So that's why we wrote the book to have those platforms and to have those conversations. Um. Like you know we talked about in the book my wife faking orgasms. I had no idea, but you know, we waited ten years to have that discussion. And I wish I could have had that discussion earlier with some of my people, and the same thing with my infidelity. I wanted to be able to talk and talk how I've changed and evolved from that situation. That was very difficult to write about because now because what I did, but who I was hurting. You know, I'm hurting my best friend, I'm hurting the person I said I love, I'm hurting my wife. I'm hurting the person that that is everything to me. And I didn't realize it. And I didn't realize it because I didn't know the definition of love. Like it's easy. We always say, yeah, I love you, I love you, But do we know what that means? Like do we look and say, what does the definition of love? Like? If I really love somebody, do I want to hurt them? If I really love somebody? Do I want to lie to them? Do I want to keep things from them? Do I still get butterflies? And I didn't necessarily know that definition, So to write it is kind of just trying to encourage people to talk about different things in their relationship and there's not surface issues. How far out are you, guys from the cheating UM twelve years? Okay? I uh? In kind of brief story like I have also been in. I was in a relationship where my husband cheated UM. We ended up writing a book together talking about the affairs we unfortunately didn't make it. Um, But for you, what was the turning point when you're kind of like, okay, I do trust this man? Like how how many? Because I remember Max, like can you get over it? Or like move on? It's the past, and like how long are you gonna It's like I don't know how long? You know, like I don't, I don't know these are and I'm trying to let go of it. It's not an easy thing to let go of. Um, But I'm just curious, like for you, like, was there a turning point where you're like okay, and what did you do to to get to that other side to be where you guys are at today. Well, what you just said was one of the reasons why it was very important to me to write the book and to share what we shared in the book, because a lot of the time, when there is a misstep or infidelity, the person who made that misstep feels entitled to the forgiveness, They feel entitled to the moving on of it. They entited, they feel entitled for you to get past it in a timely fashion that doesn't seem to inconvenience that. Meanwhile, all the while they are the ones that made the decisions to put you and the relationship in that predicament in the first place, yet they're not willing to do the work that it takes to remedy that situation. So I was very very clear once I decided that I was going to forgive, it wasn't just on me. I wasn't going to forgive to take the burden off of him. I was forgiving to take the burden off of me so that I didn't have it on my back, so that I wasn't carrying around that resentment and harboring that hurt every day. I forgave for me, and he just happened to be someone that benefited from that forgiveness. But once I decided to forgive, he was held to a standard. There was things that were required of him. He had to do the work to try to gain back everything that he single handedly had lost in our relationship. So what made me decide that we were going to go the long hold was the fact that he was willing to do the work and pay all of the reparations to restore our relationship to what it once was. And for me, the key was until where you felt as though he was saying, I apologize, What more do you want from me? Blood? He didn't approach it with that mentality. He approached it with the until mentality. I am going to do everything humanly and spiritually possible to restore this relationship until you are healed, until you're able to try again, until I'm back in your good graces, until until until. I don't care how long it takes. One day, we were having this conversation yet again as we're pulling into the garage, and he said to me, and I remember this vividly, I will spend every day of the rest of my life making up to you and moving to you that I want to be with you and no one else but you, you and our family as old that I want. I don't care what it takes. I knew what his intention was once he realized the wrong in his way, and I I couldn't help but take in how hard he was willing to work to restore us. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Like it made me tear up. Yeah, And because I think you you you did something with your shame where I think a lot of guys hold onto it and they project it would I feel like dj VY, like, what did you because there's something that you must have done with that shame piece that you didn't let it project onto you know, your wife who so like my ex, like he felt so much shame that that's why he never he wanted me to get over it or he you know um or he um was upset or angry and his projection that was all his shame. Yeah, I mean, that's why it's it's hard for me to read the book and even to do the audible of the part because you have to relive it. Um. But at that point, I didn't care about the shame. I didn't care how I looked at it, didn't care how it made me felt. I care about who I heard, and I heard her. So if if I had to eat that for twenty years, I'm gonna eat it for twenty years because I heard her like I did this to her. She didn't do it to me, She didn't do anything to me. I did it to her. So however long it would it took, I don't care. You know, if I need to whatever I need to do to make this right and to make her feel comfortable and to make her trust me again and to allow her to heal. I was able to do it. Do you, guys take some time to like decompress after you do interviews like this, because I'd imagine that you wrote about it, which is therapeutic in its own way. You share about it on these interviews. When you get off of interviews like this, most likely people are asking you, I'd imagine a lot about it, And I love you being a voice of it, both of you and just your such advocates for the healing on both sides, because resentment isn't sexy and I lived that life too for a while where I was resentful. But that doesn't look good at me at all. Do you when you take when you get done with these interviews, do you do you have to have some time, just some private time with y'all so that you can just kind of get back on the same page. Does it bring up anything? Do you just feel like good work you got, we got this. No? And the reason why is because for me, the forgiveness is real. That's right, it was, that's amazing, and mind you, it was thorough, and mind you, I didn't forgive in the matter. I didn't decide I was going to forgive and then it was executed within weeks months. It took me years to forgive thoroughly. It took me years to learn how to not have the urge or the need to punish him make him hurt the way that I hurt. I feel that so fair. You know you go through something like this, and both of you said that you've been through something like is, so you can understand. It seems as though everything in the world after that happens to you kind of goes back to cheating. You turn on Netflix. The first three suggested um shows have to do with cheating. You look at a billboard and it seems to do cheating on the radio, Divorce one one it's it seemed as though I was inundated with things that would cause me two remember, and every time I felt that way, I wanted to make sure that he felt that way too, Like it's not going to just be me suffering, It's going to be you. I had that need two to punish him, But once I got closer with God, I realized it's not my job to punish. That is not my job. If I'm going to forgive and I'm going to move forward, I have to relieve myself of all of those urges, because those urges aren't rooted in godliness, They're not rooted in good goodness. So I had to change my perception. But then once I got through it, and I got to a point where I said, you are a changed person. You are in fact not that person that did those things, and that hurt me. At that point. You are humble, you are loving, and you are willing, and you prove it every single day. You do not deserve the things that I feel the urge to make you feel, So I am not going to do it anymore. And once I started walking down that path, my forgiveness was thorough and I was, in fact healed. And it's funny because people will ask me now like you can laugh about some of the things that happened, or find a joke in there somehow, some way, And it's because I'm free because of the work that he did to prove to me the degree to which he loves me. And we talk about it in the book in a section called the New Deal. And the new Deal is about those reparations, and it's about the restoration that has to happen and the steps that the person that offended as well as the offender, have to go through to regain yourselves individually and yourselves as a whole to see that beauty in the relationship again. And it's a very intense. It's probably one of my favorite chapters in the entire book because when people ask me, how did you forgive? You open up the book and it's right there in the New Deal. Oh God, I love it. I'm like, I'm I'm I'm ready. Yeah. Well, it's also like having a second marriage inside of your marriage. Like you guys get a chance at marrying each other again in a different way and knowing any stronger. What is it? What is to you, guys real love? Like what does real love look like to you? M hmm. Well, like I said before, it's the definition of not wanting to hurt my partner, not wanting to lie to my partner, to be absolutely positively honest, to understand that she is part of me, like in this relationship. What people don't know is is when you have a relationship, you're supposed to be on the same team, right, And a lot of times we don't look at it like that, Like when we get into it, when we used to get into an arguments, it was me trying to destroy her or her trying to annihilate me. That's not what real love is, like love which it should be an understanding, it should be us against the world. And once we figured that out, it made our relationship stronger. Um, I would say one thing people talk about everything that we went bad went bad and in our relationship, right if you read it in the book, and I used to think, damn what I wouldn't change that, And no, I wouldn't because at the end of that, it made our relationship strong. It made us to find what real love is. So now we're at a point where, like you know, before, if I left my phone at home, I would be like, oh my gosh, what's gonna be on my phone? Now I'm like, oh, I can leave my phone for weeks. Say take my form. Matter of fact, babe, can you post something on Instagram for me? And you know, I mean to the point where if you ever see a caption of mind and it's felt wrong, I didn't, it's felt right. She usually does from this relationship to yeah, she always she always like, hey, that's friend, I love you. But at an art of the thing without relationship, where we have access to each other's everything passed forwards, Instagram, emails, pictures and phones. Everything. Well, if nothing hide, then what's the You know, there's nothing to hide. But let me tell you there will be people. There'll be women. Let's just say it could be men, but for this case, I'll just say women that will read the book and then present that idea to their partner, and their partner would turn it on them and say, yeah, but you should trust me enough that you would never want to go through my phone. Yeah, and that's a mind bleep. There's a section in the book about mind bleeping, which is where you ignore the obvious, You ignore what you see, you ignore your intuition because you're being led by the fact that you want this relationship to work so badly that you're damn they're willing to believe and accept anything. So yeah, I mean, that's a that's a really good point. Someone that I um had had dated, you know, after whatever, a little of a little blip, but I remember that I had a question about something and he's like, you know, it's it's on my phone, Like you just need to trust me, And I was like, well, I have trusted could could I see it? Like just too, and he was just like, no, you just need to trust me. And I was always kind of like, well, if there was nothing, really, then why didn't you just show me build the trust, like right? Or or or was I just asking for too much? You know? Like was was that just all my trust baggage issue? Like? Was that not fair of me to say, well, if you're saying it, can I see what you said if that's really what you said, just to like kind of like help me and he like you not and help, you know, hold my heart in that space, sir. That was a mom Let me tell you. I have a twenty year old daughter, right, And my twenty year old daughter had a boyfriend and the boyfriend went through her d m S and she was like fine, So my daughter was like, let me see your d m S. They were on the boat. He ran upstairs on the boat, came down ten minutes, came down to fifteen minutes later, say here, now you can see. I was able to be like, well, you know why he came by fifteen minutes later, right, And she's like, no, why, I said, because he raised everything he didn't want you to see. And I said, you know, and he was mind bleeping. You say no, well trust me, No, no, it's not it. No, if you have nothing to hide, give me your phone like you just took mine, but he couldn't see. Let me answer your question. Um. From my point of view, you asking to see whatever it was that you wanted to see, shows in and of itself that there was trust that was missing. Your intuition told you that. You don't need to be able to explain that. That is what our intuition is. But core is if in your relationship his actions coupled with your actions created an environment where you felt secure, you would have never had the intuition to say to him, I'd like to see can you show that to me? And if a person cares about you and your feelings, they're going to forego their pride and the protectiveness of the phone to say, well, it's none of your business really and say, you know what, I care a lot more about you than my pride. So if me showing this to you is going to give you security and help to grow our trust, then go ahead take a look at it. But if they don't, it either means that there is in fact something to hide, or be that there's not. But they value their own pride more than your security that would have built And if you knew that you had act I have access to a Shawn's phone. How many times have I ever looked in your phone? Well? See the thing like, I don't want to be in a relationship where I actually ever in my life I want or feel the need to look at someone's phone. Ever, I don't ever ever. I did that for seven years. I don't want to do that anymore. In the next ree like, I just well, I do not want that. And it's like, but I do know I come with trust issues, so at the times I might ask, and it's like, is that an unhealthy thing for me to ask in that situation? No, because your partner should care about you enough knowing that you may have trust issues. So it's about being each other's keeper. You should provide an environment for him in which he feels comfortable and that he can he can function in a loving way, and he should do the same for you. Like I said, I have the ability to go through his email, his phone, his Instagram, all the social media, but I never had because he's provided me the comfortability that I don't find it necessary at all. And Furthermore, if I was in a relationship where I felt as though I had to, I would not be in that relationship. Yep, your partner knowing who you are and what your needs are and maybe having a conversation about that, letting them know, Like I need to be able to build trust because maybe I've been hurt before or I've been betrayed before, so there's a learning curve with me. But if there's nothing to hide, then you will hide nothing, right, Okay, all right, Well I don't feel it's like crazy, then thank like this is actually the most like divinely timed conversation we could have. Yeah, well, I I'm I'm I know I'm not married, but I'm going to read your book because it sounds like there's a lot of things that can help me in relationships to come and um current and past and also um, thank you, And I really appreciate you guys being just a vessel for people that are going through hard times and that I love this. This is what I wanted. I wanted the this, the heartache, but to turn into beauty and but only half of the but and I love that you guys are doing that. So I'm a sing that's the d d J M v P. Yeah for sure. Um, but I love you guys. Thank you so much for coming on being an authentic and just being very vulnerable and everyone go get their book on Amazon right now, real life, real love. Thank you guys so much, really appreciate it. Love you all so much. I'm proud of you first speaking truth. M We live in Nashville. I used to, we used I used to live in l A. But now I live here. So yeah, alright, well next time we come to nash got doing a person, let's do it seriously, let me hold your next Okay, bye, guys, Sea, thank you so much, appreciate it. Uh, They're amazing. I love them. I love you. I love you. That was the most timely conversation which was so good and so real and just honest but like strong. I just yeah, what's meant, will stay, what's not we'll go, And that's okay. And if it's not a hell yes, then it's a hell no. Yeah amen to that. Um. I have another one good too. They show you who they are, believe them. Yeah, I that with friends with and coworkers with everything. Yeah, like that's that's kind of my motto. In life now um alright, guys, have a great week and see you next week.