Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson.

Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson.

Katie Horwich is here.

Katie Horwich is here.

She is a writer, speaker, mindset coach, and women's empowerment activist. She is the founder of WANT Women Against Negative Talk, a platform that gives women tools, tips, motivation, and inspiration to move forward in their lives fearlessly by shifting their negative self talk patterns. She's also the host of want Cast, the Women against Negative Talk podcast, and now an author of the book Want Yourself, Shift, Shift of Self with shift your I'm missing a word here.

She is a writer, speaker, mindset coach, and women's empowerment activist. She is the founder of WANT Women Against Negative Talk, a platform that gives women tools, tips, motivation, and inspiration to move forward in their lives fearlessly by shifting their negative self talk patterns. She's also the host of want Cast, the Women against Negative Talk podcast, and now an author of the book Want Yourself, Shift, Shift of Self with shift your I'm missing a word here.

Shift yourself talk? Where is that?

Shift yourself talk? Where is that?

Yeah? Shift yourself talking, Unearth the strength and who you were all along?

Yeah? Shift yourself talking, Unearth the strength and who you were all along?

There we go, there, we go.

There we go, there, we go.

Out to Sorry for that little uh iffy intro there, but hi Katie, thank you?

Out to Sorry for that little uh iffy intro there, but hi Katie, thank you?

No are you k I thought it was a wonderful intro. It's a mouse because you know it's a big It's a big subject, which is why I wrote a book on it instead of making an Instagram post and calling it a day.

No are you k I thought it was a wonderful intro. It's a mouse because you know it's a big It's a big subject, which is why I wrote a book on it instead of making an Instagram post and calling it a day.

Yes, well, we were talking before the podcast and the theme this month here on Velvet's Edge is cobwebs. We pick a word every month that we picked the word cobwebs. Obviously it's October spooky season. There's a lot of different meanings there. But you are the perfect guest for me for this topic because, as you mentioned, negative self talk, it's a huge topic, right, but to me, it's also the thing that just kind of lurks in the shadows, like it's the thing driving most things that we do, yet we don't even know that it exists, right.

Yes, well, we were talking before the podcast and the theme this month here on Velvet's Edge is cobwebs. We pick a word every month that we picked the word cobwebs. Obviously it's October spooky season. There's a lot of different meanings there. But you are the perfect guest for me for this topic because, as you mentioned, negative self talk, it's a huge topic, right, but to me, it's also the thing that just kind of lurks in the shadows, like it's the thing driving most things that we do, yet we don't even know that it exists, right.

One hundred percent. It's like, you know, what's so funny is that throughout not just my work of you know, fifteen years or so studying and researching and generally obsessing over self talk, especially during this book process and this book I guess media process, there have been people who have said, you know, I actually thought that I didn't have negative self talk anymore, and so I thought, well, this doesn't apply to me, and then as they got into the work, they realized, oh wow, I actually have more of that in me than I thought I did. And when people say that, I sort of say, that's amazing if you don't feel like negative self talk runs your life. But to say that you have no negative self talk, so to speak, is kind of like saying, well, I never get tired. You're a human, You're not a robot. You're going to get tired, which you know in this case, you are a human, not a robot. So you're going to have all different types of self talk that comes up. But you are so right that it really can be so deceptive and so sneaky and be lurking in the background of consciousness, and sometimes that can come out in ways that we don't expect, in really harmful ways. Yeah.

One hundred percent. It's like, you know, what's so funny is that throughout not just my work of you know, fifteen years or so studying and researching and generally obsessing over self talk, especially during this book process and this book I guess media process, there have been people who have said, you know, I actually thought that I didn't have negative self talk anymore, and so I thought, well, this doesn't apply to me, and then as they got into the work, they realized, oh wow, I actually have more of that in me than I thought I did. And when people say that, I sort of say, that's amazing if you don't feel like negative self talk runs your life. But to say that you have no negative self talk, so to speak, is kind of like saying, well, I never get tired. You're a human, You're not a robot. You're going to get tired, which you know in this case, you are a human, not a robot. So you're going to have all different types of self talk that comes up. But you are so right that it really can be so deceptive and so sneaky and be lurking in the background of consciousness, and sometimes that can come out in ways that we don't expect, in really harmful ways. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because in Want Yourself, you dive into ways to shift your negative self talk patterns. But this is more than just speaking nicely to yourself, right, Can you talk about the difference there.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because in Want Yourself, you dive into ways to shift your negative self talk patterns. But this is more than just speaking nicely to yourself, right, Can you talk about the difference there.

Yeah. So there is some research that I am just completely obsessed with that I put right at the beginning of the book. There's this study that was done with two different groups of people. One group had pre existing low self esteem and then the other group had pre existing high self esteem, and both of the groups thought that positive. They were calling it in the study positive self statements, what we might think of as positive affirmations or positive self talk. Both of them believed, okay, these these work wonders, and so they gave each of the groups pieces of positive self statements to repeat to themselves, and what they noticed over time is that the people who had pre existing high self esteem it actually kept them there made them feel better, and the people who had low self esteem, it actually made them feel worse because what was going on was a form of cognitive dissonance where they felt like they were lying to themselves, and then they had feelings about those feelings. So that combined with the fact that not everybody's negative self talk or self talk in general, let's forget about negative for a second, not everybody's self talk actually shows up as talk and words to begin with. Some people experience it through like visuals. They'll say it's like a movie playing out in their mind, or they have these abstract feelings. If you put those two together, then it's sort of like a, oh, I understand now, why maybe I've been saying these so called positive things to myself and they haven't been making a difference in my life. Because maybe that isn't where you were even starting. And even if you were starting with words, then maybe you weren't in a place where you had that seed of belief in what you're saying to actually take it forward. So I like to get behind the talk which is symptomatic and get to the bottom of the self part of the equation. Yeah.

Yeah. So there is some research that I am just completely obsessed with that I put right at the beginning of the book. There's this study that was done with two different groups of people. One group had pre existing low self esteem and then the other group had pre existing high self esteem, and both of the groups thought that positive. They were calling it in the study positive self statements, what we might think of as positive affirmations or positive self talk. Both of them believed, okay, these these work wonders, and so they gave each of the groups pieces of positive self statements to repeat to themselves, and what they noticed over time is that the people who had pre existing high self esteem it actually kept them there made them feel better, and the people who had low self esteem, it actually made them feel worse because what was going on was a form of cognitive dissonance where they felt like they were lying to themselves, and then they had feelings about those feelings. So that combined with the fact that not everybody's negative self talk or self talk in general, let's forget about negative for a second, not everybody's self talk actually shows up as talk and words to begin with. Some people experience it through like visuals. They'll say it's like a movie playing out in their mind, or they have these abstract feelings. If you put those two together, then it's sort of like a, oh, I understand now, why maybe I've been saying these so called positive things to myself and they haven't been making a difference in my life. Because maybe that isn't where you were even starting. And even if you were starting with words, then maybe you weren't in a place where you had that seed of belief in what you're saying to actually take it forward. So I like to get behind the talk which is symptomatic and get to the bottom of the self part of the equation. Yeah.

So what I'm hearing you say it's so interesting because the people with the low self esteem, it's almost as if it was creating this like shame spiral internally that they weren't even aware of.

So what I'm hearing you say it's so interesting because the people with the low self esteem, it's almost as if it was creating this like shame spiral internally that they weren't even aware of.

Totally one thousand percent.

Totally one thousand percent.

Yeah, so how are they catching that in the moment, like if or how did y'all figure that out? I guess, or in that study, how did they figure it out?

Yeah, so how are they catching that in the moment, like if or how did y'all figure that out? I guess, or in that study, how did they figure it out?

Yeah? In the study, the I mean the way that they figured it out is sort of like taking the stock of like, Okay, well, how are these people feeling about themselves? And I reference the study in the book and people can read like the pages and pages of it. But you know, it's so interesting because when you mentioned the shame spiral, like I don't want to double click into that. Yeah, it made me think about myself and my own life and the people that I work with, who are usually very not only high achievers, but they're people who are already somewhat familiar with this type of let's just call it mindset work. And so what can happen is we can get these narratives that develop of well, I should be over this by now. I thought that I was past this. And then there's, like you said, that sort of shame spiral that comes in that is going to take you along, like I think of a roller coaster. It's going to take you on that ride the second that you decide to dip your toe into it. Because we are hard wired to recognize the things that feel dangerous or not or incongruent to us. We're hardwired to see those things, and so of course we're going to have feelings about them when those times come up. It's just it's more about what we do with those feelings that's what matters, versus how we feel about Well, I thought that I should be over I was over this by now, and I'm not, you know, totally.

Yeah? In the study, the I mean the way that they figured it out is sort of like taking the stock of like, Okay, well, how are these people feeling about themselves? And I reference the study in the book and people can read like the pages and pages of it. But you know, it's so interesting because when you mentioned the shame spiral, like I don't want to double click into that. Yeah, it made me think about myself and my own life and the people that I work with, who are usually very not only high achievers, but they're people who are already somewhat familiar with this type of let's just call it mindset work. And so what can happen is we can get these narratives that develop of well, I should be over this by now. I thought that I was past this. And then there's, like you said, that sort of shame spiral that comes in that is going to take you along, like I think of a roller coaster. It's going to take you on that ride the second that you decide to dip your toe into it. Because we are hard wired to recognize the things that feel dangerous or not or incongruent to us. We're hardwired to see those things, and so of course we're going to have feelings about them when those times come up. It's just it's more about what we do with those feelings that's what matters, versus how we feel about Well, I thought that I should be over I was over this by now, and I'm not, you know, totally.

And the other thing I hear you saying, it's just like paying the word awareness in my mind, because I know you say, because self talk isn't positive or negative. It's the story you're telling yourself. So you have to start there, right And I think so much of those shame spirals are this from my experience with them, I guess it's like I want to attach to the feeling like you're saying, like I feel terrible right now. But isn't it such a thing that if you're actually just recognizing it, like the awareness, like oh look, how I'm I'm doing that thing again? Like that's the first step, right, hundred percent.

And the other thing I hear you saying, it's just like paying the word awareness in my mind, because I know you say, because self talk isn't positive or negative. It's the story you're telling yourself. So you have to start there, right And I think so much of those shame spirals are this from my experience with them, I guess it's like I want to attach to the feeling like you're saying, like I feel terrible right now. But isn't it such a thing that if you're actually just recognizing it, like the awareness, like oh look, how I'm I'm doing that thing again? Like that's the first step, right, hundred percent.

I think that just paying attention, I mean paying attention and getting curious. I believe that it could make so much change happen in the world. However, that can be really really uncomfortable. Yeah, then there's also you know, there's this idea that we should be able to first of all, we should be able to pay attention like it's easy too, and that we should be able to flip the switch right in the moment and just jump straight to the story that you want to write over whatever you're saying. But if we are going with the framework of self talk is inherently neither good or bad. It's information. It's actually about not just about paying attention about when this stuff comes up in us, but going and digging and figuring out, Okay, well what's underneath this? And there might be some tough information under there. But if we go into our own relationship with ourself, like we would go into a relationship with anybody who we love and care for deeply in our lives. And you know, I don't know about you or people listening, but for me, with the people that I care deeply about in their lives, when they're telling me things, I want to say, tell me more like, let's talk, let's dig in, Let's dig in if you're ready. I'm not going to bypass their emotions. I'm not going to tell them to just think positive when they're in a really, really tough place. We're able to take that type of relationship that we have with others and turn it back on ourselves. I mean, imagine, imagine the change that could happen, right right, Well, let's talk a little bit.

I think that just paying attention, I mean paying attention and getting curious. I believe that it could make so much change happen in the world. However, that can be really really uncomfortable. Yeah, then there's also you know, there's this idea that we should be able to first of all, we should be able to pay attention like it's easy too, and that we should be able to flip the switch right in the moment and just jump straight to the story that you want to write over whatever you're saying. But if we are going with the framework of self talk is inherently neither good or bad. It's information. It's actually about not just about paying attention about when this stuff comes up in us, but going and digging and figuring out, Okay, well what's underneath this? And there might be some tough information under there. But if we go into our own relationship with ourself, like we would go into a relationship with anybody who we love and care for deeply in our lives. And you know, I don't know about you or people listening, but for me, with the people that I care deeply about in their lives, when they're telling me things, I want to say, tell me more like, let's talk, let's dig in, Let's dig in if you're ready. I'm not going to bypass their emotions. I'm not going to tell them to just think positive when they're in a really, really tough place. We're able to take that type of relationship that we have with others and turn it back on ourselves. I mean, imagine, imagine the change that could happen, right right, Well, let's talk a little bit.

You mentioned earlier the woman that said to you, well, I just didn't think that I had any negative self talk. So let's actually talk about maybe what is self talk and how do you shift that? So maybe could you give us some examples of things that you've heard or that people may not be even recognizing within themselves, and then tell us some ways to start shifting it.

You mentioned earlier the woman that said to you, well, I just didn't think that I had any negative self talk. So let's actually talk about maybe what is self talk and how do you shift that? So maybe could you give us some examples of things that you've heard or that people may not be even recognizing within themselves, and then tell us some ways to start shifting it.

Yeah, So that's I love that question because I will also say when I first started I mean, I thought of the idea for want, which is my platform women against negative talk. I thought of that back in two thousand and seven initially, and even you know, there was a little lag, there was a little break. I sort of went into the onto the back burner of my life for a while, and I brought it back in twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen, this phrase self talk was something that a lot of people weren't actually familiar with. So I describe self talk as the story that we tell ourselves twenty four to seven as we walk through the world, And that's the story of who we believe ourselves to be and how we sort of belong in the world in general. So what that story does, it's it informs what we do next and next and next and next. So self talk could be everything from positive to negative to completely neutral. A lot of people jump straight to the positives or the negatives, but I think it's worthwhile to recognize that our self talk story is going on all of the time, and it could be objective, right. It could be I think I am going to go to the market right now, or I want to go outside, Like we don't think of that as self talk, but if those are the words that if you're a an eternal monologue person like I am, because the words that are in your brain or the visuals that you're having, that's your self talk. But what we pay attention to usually is the positive or negative self talk, particularly the negative self talk. So negative self talk is sort of where I say, the self talk story takes a dark turn. It's where the story is one that belittles us, demeans us, makes us feel small, and keeps us in a reactive state versus a proactive state. So everything from I'm not good enough, smart enough, talented enough, not enough is a big one that many people struggle with or you know, taking an example, a very an example from my own life, I did for my book launch here in New York City. I did a cabaret and I sang, I performed. It was so much fun. I have not performed like that on a stage professionally for a very very long time. And you know, I've been doing this work for a really long time, so I was able to catch it really quickly. But when I first thought of the idea of maybe I want to do a book launch cabaret, there was a thought that came in of, well, I haven't sung on a stage in like almost fifteen years, Like, am I allowed to do that? I'm I'm an author, I'm a coach, I do all of these things. I'm not a performer air quotes. And then I was able to catch that and be like, Okay, cool, you're feeling uncomfortable and you're also feeling you're feeling that excitement around it, and you don't really know how to reconcile the two, and so that's what's coming up. Was able to recognize that really fast because I've been doing this for a really, really really long time. But there's stuff that comes up like that every day for people that makes us believe that we are ready or not ready, or good enough or not good enough or whatever situation. It can be as small as going, I don't know, walking down the street and giving somebody a compliment and then being like, in your head, oh, that was so weird. I made that so awkward because you feel uncomfortable because maybe you were in a newer, vulnerable situation. So self talk and negative self talk, like you said at the very beginning, I mean, you really hit the nail on the head. It is. These are cobwebs that just are in the backgrounds of our lives, and much like cop webs or spider webs, sometimes you don't always see that they are there, right.

Yeah, So that's I love that question because I will also say when I first started I mean, I thought of the idea for want, which is my platform women against negative talk. I thought of that back in two thousand and seven initially, and even you know, there was a little lag, there was a little break. I sort of went into the onto the back burner of my life for a while, and I brought it back in twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen, this phrase self talk was something that a lot of people weren't actually familiar with. So I describe self talk as the story that we tell ourselves twenty four to seven as we walk through the world, And that's the story of who we believe ourselves to be and how we sort of belong in the world in general. So what that story does, it's it informs what we do next and next and next and next. So self talk could be everything from positive to negative to completely neutral. A lot of people jump straight to the positives or the negatives, but I think it's worthwhile to recognize that our self talk story is going on all of the time, and it could be objective, right. It could be I think I am going to go to the market right now, or I want to go outside, Like we don't think of that as self talk, but if those are the words that if you're a an eternal monologue person like I am, because the words that are in your brain or the visuals that you're having, that's your self talk. But what we pay attention to usually is the positive or negative self talk, particularly the negative self talk. So negative self talk is sort of where I say, the self talk story takes a dark turn. It's where the story is one that belittles us, demeans us, makes us feel small, and keeps us in a reactive state versus a proactive state. So everything from I'm not good enough, smart enough, talented enough, not enough is a big one that many people struggle with or you know, taking an example, a very an example from my own life, I did for my book launch here in New York City. I did a cabaret and I sang, I performed. It was so much fun. I have not performed like that on a stage professionally for a very very long time. And you know, I've been doing this work for a really long time, so I was able to catch it really quickly. But when I first thought of the idea of maybe I want to do a book launch cabaret, there was a thought that came in of, well, I haven't sung on a stage in like almost fifteen years, Like, am I allowed to do that? I'm I'm an author, I'm a coach, I do all of these things. I'm not a performer air quotes. And then I was able to catch that and be like, Okay, cool, you're feeling uncomfortable and you're also feeling you're feeling that excitement around it, and you don't really know how to reconcile the two, and so that's what's coming up. Was able to recognize that really fast because I've been doing this for a really, really really long time. But there's stuff that comes up like that every day for people that makes us believe that we are ready or not ready, or good enough or not good enough or whatever situation. It can be as small as going, I don't know, walking down the street and giving somebody a compliment and then being like, in your head, oh, that was so weird. I made that so awkward because you feel uncomfortable because maybe you were in a newer, vulnerable situation. So self talk and negative self talk, like you said at the very beginning, I mean, you really hit the nail on the head. It is. These are cobwebs that just are in the backgrounds of our lives, and much like cop webs or spider webs, sometimes you don't always see that they are there, right.

I was just thinking when you were talking about that story of like even hitting running into the person on the street. It's those things that we have in our head, right, Like the thing that you believe about yourself and maybe you're like, oh no, this isn't true, or like let's say you're getting into a new relationship. You have a narrative about relationships, so it's like you're happy, you're happy, you're happy, and then that one thing happens, right, and you're like, see, I knew you were just like every other man. Like it's that stuff that's constantly going on. I'm actually starting to recognize some of those things in my life after a decade of therapy, you know, Like it's like these things are so sneaky and subtle sometimes that you just don't fully have the awareness.

I was just thinking when you were talking about that story of like even hitting running into the person on the street. It's those things that we have in our head, right, Like the thing that you believe about yourself and maybe you're like, oh no, this isn't true, or like let's say you're getting into a new relationship. You have a narrative about relationships, so it's like you're happy, you're happy, you're happy, and then that one thing happens, right, and you're like, see, I knew you were just like every other man. Like it's that stuff that's constantly going on. I'm actually starting to recognize some of those things in my life after a decade of therapy, you know, Like it's like these things are so sneaky and subtle sometimes that you just don't fully have the awareness.

But I love what the book talks about because.

But I love what the book talks about because.

You really dove into how much of this is really connected to like our relationship with ourselves and the knowledge of you know, the narratives going on, but also just how much we like ourselves, know ourselves, and you describe it as self like versus self love and kind of talk about those differences. So there was one quote I wanted to say. You say, what holds us back from the idea of true self love is the idea that we're supposed to love ourselves one hundred percent of the time, because chances are that's not going to be the case. And I want to really just talk about what are the differences and then how do we learn to have this kind of unconditional love that maybe we offer other people, but we really seem to struggle as humans to offer ourselves.

You really dove into how much of this is really connected to like our relationship with ourselves and the knowledge of you know, the narratives going on, but also just how much we like ourselves, know ourselves, and you describe it as self like versus self love and kind of talk about those differences. So there was one quote I wanted to say. You say, what holds us back from the idea of true self love is the idea that we're supposed to love ourselves one hundred percent of the time, because chances are that's not going to be the case. And I want to really just talk about what are the differences and then how do we learn to have this kind of unconditional love that maybe we offer other people, but we really seem to struggle as humans to offer ourselves.

Yeah. I love talking about the difference between self like and self love because you know, we are told many times that we've we've just got to love ourselves for exactly who we are. But that's really really hard when we haven't been taught that it is okay to both love yourself and not like parts of you know, parts of yourself, parts of how you're showing up. We conflate the two and we think, well, if I don't like how I'm acting or how I'm feeling right now, I don't like parts of my body whatever it is that must mean that I don't love myself. But I always suggest to people to think of someone or some entity. I always think of my dog, Frankie. Think of someone in your life who you would say, oh, yeah, I love them unconditionally, and then you think about it and you think, okay, well, do I always like how they're acting? Do I always agree with their choices? Am I never once annoyed with them? I mean, if we're too. It sounds maybe like a silly example, but it's actually I think, especially if you're a person who has a dog or cat, that you have that unconditional love for it, it actually actually can make this this even more clear that yeah, sometimes my dog's barking annoys me. Sometimes I don't like that she doing that. I love her so unconditionally, And why aren't we using that unconditional love lens on ourselves as well? Because we are also in a relationship with ourself. And so if you think about how you build unconditional love with someone, you don't just say, you know, okay, I met you and I love you unconditionally. I think that the times where I have heard that happen, it's, you know, in a situation where it's a parent with their with their childs. But let's say that you have someone that you are dating, right, you are going to go through a process with them of learning who they are and getting curious and figuring out like what makes them tick, And then you're going to start to develop that connection with that person. And then you're going to start to develop that respect and that trust throughout time, and all of the sudden, one day you're like, Wow, I love this person unconditionally. So it does take time. And if you're taking that same framework and turning it back onto yourself, really hard to love yourself unconditionally if you haven't spent time getting to know who you are and finding yourself underneath all of the cobwebs to begin with. So it's why I believe that that's what's the beginning of the book. I really wanted to give people. I give them a framework of First, I tell them like, here's why you need a sense of self, and then the book takes you through this roadmap of finding yourself, being yourself, staying yourself, and wanting yourself, and that finding your self part. A lot of people think that it's a search out there, but it's actually a dig in here, and I believe that I actually talk about that part in the same breath that I talk about self love and self like in the book. Yeah, because that's that is the base of the majority of the unpetitional love in our lives.

Yeah. I love talking about the difference between self like and self love because you know, we are told many times that we've we've just got to love ourselves for exactly who we are. But that's really really hard when we haven't been taught that it is okay to both love yourself and not like parts of you know, parts of yourself, parts of how you're showing up. We conflate the two and we think, well, if I don't like how I'm acting or how I'm feeling right now, I don't like parts of my body whatever it is that must mean that I don't love myself. But I always suggest to people to think of someone or some entity. I always think of my dog, Frankie. Think of someone in your life who you would say, oh, yeah, I love them unconditionally, and then you think about it and you think, okay, well, do I always like how they're acting? Do I always agree with their choices? Am I never once annoyed with them? I mean, if we're too. It sounds maybe like a silly example, but it's actually I think, especially if you're a person who has a dog or cat, that you have that unconditional love for it, it actually actually can make this this even more clear that yeah, sometimes my dog's barking annoys me. Sometimes I don't like that she doing that. I love her so unconditionally, And why aren't we using that unconditional love lens on ourselves as well? Because we are also in a relationship with ourself. And so if you think about how you build unconditional love with someone, you don't just say, you know, okay, I met you and I love you unconditionally. I think that the times where I have heard that happen, it's, you know, in a situation where it's a parent with their with their childs. But let's say that you have someone that you are dating, right, you are going to go through a process with them of learning who they are and getting curious and figuring out like what makes them tick, And then you're going to start to develop that connection with that person. And then you're going to start to develop that respect and that trust throughout time, and all of the sudden, one day you're like, Wow, I love this person unconditionally. So it does take time. And if you're taking that same framework and turning it back onto yourself, really hard to love yourself unconditionally if you haven't spent time getting to know who you are and finding yourself underneath all of the cobwebs to begin with. So it's why I believe that that's what's the beginning of the book. I really wanted to give people. I give them a framework of First, I tell them like, here's why you need a sense of self, and then the book takes you through this roadmap of finding yourself, being yourself, staying yourself, and wanting yourself, and that finding your self part. A lot of people think that it's a search out there, but it's actually a dig in here, and I believe that I actually talk about that part in the same breath that I talk about self love and self like in the book. Yeah, because that's that is the base of the majority of the unpetitional love in our lives.

Well, you did the perfect transition for me because I wanted to move to this for pillars that you talk about the four steps of self, will you explain a little more about each one? I know you did just kind of dive into the finding.

Well, you did the perfect transition for me because I wanted to move to this for pillars that you talk about the four steps of self, will you explain a little more about each one? I know you did just kind of dive into the finding.

What does that look like? Though?

What does that look like? Though?

Like I always love to give the listeners tangible tips and it's like, okay, finding yourself that sounds overwhelming to me, Like that seems like you need to go on and eat prey love journey. You need to like be able to you know, have that kind of experience in Aha, there I am, But what.

Like I always love to give the listeners tangible tips and it's like, okay, finding yourself that sounds overwhelming to me, Like that seems like you need to go on and eat prey love journey. You need to like be able to you know, have that kind of experience in Aha, there I am, But what.

Does it actually look like?

Does it actually look like?

Right?

Right?

It's sort of like when people say just like be true to yourself, know yourself, yeah, and it's like, oh, okay, sure, And then you know, it's such a simple phrase that again we think that there's something wrong with us that we can't just know ourselves, our love ourselves. And when I think of finding yourself, it is really about developing first that base of trust and truth to begin with, and being able to learn how what it means for you to stay with an integrity within yourself, so also figuring out what is yours and what did you sort of pick up along the way. So I talk about this a little bit earlier in the book, but there is a concept that the phrase was actually created by a performance coach named Judy Wilkins Smith called emotional DNA, And it's basically the blueprint that is within us that you know, informs the way that we think and act and interact. And the thing about emotional DNA is that we don't just pick it up from the people who have come before us, right like, we're getting that and building those DNA strands all around us in this moment and doing the same for other people as well. And so a lot of times people can say, Okay, I want to shift myself talk, but I don't know where to start. And I always tell people to start with start with their self talk origin story, if there's a a certain belief or phrase, if you will, that they want to shift. Getting curious as to when did I first notice this popping up in my life? Was this because somebody else said this to me, was this because I was trying to fit into a situation and not judging it and not trying to shift it right away, but just getting curious where it freaking came from, where it began. And then after that then you can start to get curious around the sort of deeper meaning behind your self talk. So, okay, well, if I am let's take a complaint for example, if I am complaining about something, do I actually like the reality of solving this problem, reality the shift, or do I just like the feeling that I'm constantly figuring it out so to speak. When you're not, you're keeping yourself in the loop. And that's all really good information to figure out. Okay, well, how do I function? How do I interact with the world, how do we interact with myself? And then after that it's really about figuring out what your version of things that we sort of take for granted and don't I'm going to use the phrase again, don't double click into like positivity, Like what does real deal positivity mean to you? And that's really important because if you are looking to find yourself so to speak, can be really tempting to put on let's just call it a confidence costume and put on someone else's version of positivity. So it's about redefining these phrases and these concepts like self love to really make them work for us. And so it's not so much about Okay, well what do they say or what do they think? It's well what do I think? And some people have never done that before and never really been able to get to that place where they can figure out, like where do I actually want to go and what do I want to bring with me as I go there? Because so often we want to skip to the very last part, the want yourself part of the equation. But you can't want yourself if you don't know who that self is that you've brought along the way. Does that make sense?

It's sort of like when people say just like be true to yourself, know yourself, yeah, and it's like, oh, okay, sure, And then you know, it's such a simple phrase that again we think that there's something wrong with us that we can't just know ourselves, our love ourselves. And when I think of finding yourself, it is really about developing first that base of trust and truth to begin with, and being able to learn how what it means for you to stay with an integrity within yourself, so also figuring out what is yours and what did you sort of pick up along the way. So I talk about this a little bit earlier in the book, but there is a concept that the phrase was actually created by a performance coach named Judy Wilkins Smith called emotional DNA, And it's basically the blueprint that is within us that you know, informs the way that we think and act and interact. And the thing about emotional DNA is that we don't just pick it up from the people who have come before us, right like, we're getting that and building those DNA strands all around us in this moment and doing the same for other people as well. And so a lot of times people can say, Okay, I want to shift myself talk, but I don't know where to start. And I always tell people to start with start with their self talk origin story, if there's a a certain belief or phrase, if you will, that they want to shift. Getting curious as to when did I first notice this popping up in my life? Was this because somebody else said this to me, was this because I was trying to fit into a situation and not judging it and not trying to shift it right away, but just getting curious where it freaking came from, where it began. And then after that then you can start to get curious around the sort of deeper meaning behind your self talk. So, okay, well, if I am let's take a complaint for example, if I am complaining about something, do I actually like the reality of solving this problem, reality the shift, or do I just like the feeling that I'm constantly figuring it out so to speak. When you're not, you're keeping yourself in the loop. And that's all really good information to figure out. Okay, well, how do I function? How do I interact with the world, how do we interact with myself? And then after that it's really about figuring out what your version of things that we sort of take for granted and don't I'm going to use the phrase again, don't double click into like positivity, Like what does real deal positivity mean to you? And that's really important because if you are looking to find yourself so to speak, can be really tempting to put on let's just call it a confidence costume and put on someone else's version of positivity. So it's about redefining these phrases and these concepts like self love to really make them work for us. And so it's not so much about Okay, well what do they say or what do they think? It's well what do I think? And some people have never done that before and never really been able to get to that place where they can figure out, like where do I actually want to go and what do I want to bring with me as I go there? Because so often we want to skip to the very last part, the want yourself part of the equation. But you can't want yourself if you don't know who that self is that you've brought along the way. Does that make sense?

It makes total sense. And it's such a bigger conversation. When as you were talking, I was just thinking, this ties into everything because we create such a constructor. I believe this at least in this world that you know, you kind of have to fit in a certain box and success looks a certain way or happiness looks a certain way. And on this journey of life, the older I get, the more I'm I guess getting to know myself and realizing all of the things I was trying on in my twenties and in my thirties. There were all things that I thought other people would deem successful or happy or positive or any of the things, you know, like you just explained. And it's just interesting because I think a lot of this accepting yourself, finding yourself, being yourself comes with like getting to know yourself, but also, like you're saying, laying down all these other narratives we've picked up along the way and saying what is mine? What is someone else's? And where do I want to go with this, like truly honestly authentically as myself?

It makes total sense. And it's such a bigger conversation. When as you were talking, I was just thinking, this ties into everything because we create such a constructor. I believe this at least in this world that you know, you kind of have to fit in a certain box and success looks a certain way or happiness looks a certain way. And on this journey of life, the older I get, the more I'm I guess getting to know myself and realizing all of the things I was trying on in my twenties and in my thirties. There were all things that I thought other people would deem successful or happy or positive or any of the things, you know, like you just explained. And it's just interesting because I think a lot of this accepting yourself, finding yourself, being yourself comes with like getting to know yourself, but also, like you're saying, laying down all these other narratives we've picked up along the way and saying what is mine? What is someone else's? And where do I want to go with this, like truly honestly authentically as myself?

Which is it?

Which is it?

Yeah, it's not necessarily something I think we can just be, you know, when we're fifteen, be like here, I I am world, you know, because you don't have the life experience yet, Like it does kind of just seem like one of those things that might come with some time and awareness.

Yeah, it's not necessarily something I think we can just be, you know, when we're fifteen, be like here, I I am world, you know, because you don't have the life experience yet, Like it does kind of just seem like one of those things that might come with some time and awareness.

Yeah, And it's I love that you brought that up because people always ask me about, you know, how can we start to talk to kids and teens about this stuff? And you know, it's it's really it's difficult work to do, but at the end of the day, it's actually way easier than we give it credit for. The toughest part oftentimes is number one. Many times, we haven't made any of this work habit, so it doesn't feel habitual. So it feels new, and it feels scary, and it feels a little bit uncomfortable because we haven't been in the habit of it. And then there's also again the feelings that we sometimes have been taught that we need or should need to feel around the uncomfortable stuff. And so yeah, it just becomes like this this big mess. And I think that there's a way to have these conversations with kids and with teens where it's actually it's actually really meaningful and can be really impactful because even though they're going through different things than you know, full grown adults are, and yes their brains are still forming, and yes they have different life experiences in that point, and maybe not as many life experiences, there is still you know, so many people when they think of their self talk origin stories. They begin in childhood, they begin in teendom. And so even even practicing with the kids and the young people in your life, asking like genuinely asking, not a rhetorical question asking oh, well, where where did you Where did you hear that from? Or when did you start to believe that? Or oh you said that you aren't good enough for this or that they don't like you? What made you feel that way? That is the beginning of starting to practice the habit. And I think so often we want to jump to the solving everything. But if we can view the work of shifting our self talk less as a stop and start and more of a shift that happens over time with habits, and those habits getting stronger and like I said, more habitual, then we end up setting ourselves up for long term success. Like I mean, I am a baby of the eighties and child of the nineties, and this was not the conversation that was happening back then. But can you imagine, you know, if in the eighties and nineties, if we had these types of conversations that were actually pragmatic and not just pie in this guy right in our lives you know, right?

Yeah, And it's I love that you brought that up because people always ask me about, you know, how can we start to talk to kids and teens about this stuff? And you know, it's it's really it's difficult work to do, but at the end of the day, it's actually way easier than we give it credit for. The toughest part oftentimes is number one. Many times, we haven't made any of this work habit, so it doesn't feel habitual. So it feels new, and it feels scary, and it feels a little bit uncomfortable because we haven't been in the habit of it. And then there's also again the feelings that we sometimes have been taught that we need or should need to feel around the uncomfortable stuff. And so yeah, it just becomes like this this big mess. And I think that there's a way to have these conversations with kids and with teens where it's actually it's actually really meaningful and can be really impactful because even though they're going through different things than you know, full grown adults are, and yes their brains are still forming, and yes they have different life experiences in that point, and maybe not as many life experiences, there is still you know, so many people when they think of their self talk origin stories. They begin in childhood, they begin in teendom. And so even even practicing with the kids and the young people in your life, asking like genuinely asking, not a rhetorical question asking oh, well, where where did you Where did you hear that from? Or when did you start to believe that? Or oh you said that you aren't good enough for this or that they don't like you? What made you feel that way? That is the beginning of starting to practice the habit. And I think so often we want to jump to the solving everything. But if we can view the work of shifting our self talk less as a stop and start and more of a shift that happens over time with habits, and those habits getting stronger and like I said, more habitual, then we end up setting ourselves up for long term success. Like I mean, I am a baby of the eighties and child of the nineties, and this was not the conversation that was happening back then. But can you imagine, you know, if in the eighties and nineties, if we had these types of conversations that were actually pragmatic and not just pie in this guy right in our lives you know, right?

Well, yeah, because I do think as you were saying that, I'm thinking, okay, yeah, if I had been taught that's maybe some of those narratives weren't real because in my brain. The things I've realized about the negative self talk or the narratives, it just appears to be fact to me, do you know what I mean? Like, it's like this thing that I'm saying, I think that that is just the fact, that's the truth. But if someone was to ask me, well, where did that come from? And I go back and trace it, it's like, no, that was a negative experience when I hadn't know the eleven that made me start believing that about myself or whatever it was. And so it would be an interesting thing to start teaching kids to kind of be conscious of what they're picking up as fact or is that actually true? Where does that come from? So that you can kind of pinpoint, like you're saying, the origin. And I do think that that would help maybe shift some of the narratives as you go through life and have your life experiences and grow and evolve. And you've kind of touched on the optimism, which in the book you call dead end optimism, but you also mentioned casual negativity. So can you talk about what both of those mean and how those things can hold us back.

Well, yeah, because I do think as you were saying that, I'm thinking, okay, yeah, if I had been taught that's maybe some of those narratives weren't real because in my brain. The things I've realized about the negative self talk or the narratives, it just appears to be fact to me, do you know what I mean? Like, it's like this thing that I'm saying, I think that that is just the fact, that's the truth. But if someone was to ask me, well, where did that come from? And I go back and trace it, it's like, no, that was a negative experience when I hadn't know the eleven that made me start believing that about myself or whatever it was. And so it would be an interesting thing to start teaching kids to kind of be conscious of what they're picking up as fact or is that actually true? Where does that come from? So that you can kind of pinpoint, like you're saying, the origin. And I do think that that would help maybe shift some of the narratives as you go through life and have your life experiences and grow and evolve. And you've kind of touched on the optimism, which in the book you call dead end optimism, but you also mentioned casual negativity. So can you talk about what both of those mean and how those things can hold us back.

Yeah, So a lot of times we when I talk about dead end optimism, it's sort of a let's just it's called a cousin of toxic positivity. Okay. Dead End optimism is to be very blunt with this metaphor, like it is optimism that is going nowhere. Yeah, like it hits a dead end, but there's nowhere where it to go, so it just keeps. So, you know, I tell a story about carousels and so, and I love carousels, and it's very easy to just stay on and keep on going. And the thing that happens is eventually, if you just keep on going around on that carousel, carousel's going to break down. You're going to get really dizzy and disoriented, or people are going to be like, oh, well, that's what is that person doing, you know, like it's going to feel like fake and contrived that Oh I'm I'm just staying on these sort of plaster ponies that are going nowhere. And that's the way that I view dead end optimism, where it's not necessarily in the same exactly the same as toxic positivity, where toxic positivity will be just love and light over a negative situation. That is a form of dead end optimism. But I think the dead end optimism is a little more similar to casual negativity, which we'll talk about in a second, which it's the stuff that we don't even realize that we are doing, to that we think that we're doing with the goal of keeping ourselves happy, positive, and that can be as simple as people ask how you're doing, and do you always say I'm great, great, great, And it can be more of like the toxic positivity, where you're talking to other people and you're saying everything happens for a reason, which you know it's if I never heard that phrase again. I think there are so many other wonderful phrases that we can use, and it really it can get us in this loop of feeling like we need to be searching for happiness all the time, but happiness is pleading, happiness is oftentimes circumstantial. You mentioned casual negativity. It's the flip side of dead end optimism. Casual negativity is the negative talk and particularly self talk that we use that is as automatic and as emotionless as we say the sky is blue. So with dead end optimism, maybe someone is asking how you're doing, and you're really not doing fantastic, but you're like, I'm great, right, and that's just you know, your your default reaction. Casual negativity is saying like, ugh, I hate my body, or oh that was that was so that was so silly of me, without any emotion attached. This often comes up. I notice it with people in with self deprecation. And sometimes many times self deprecation can come from a real place, but a lot of times it can come from just a desire to connect with people. And that is a form of casual negativity that if we're going back to earlier in the conversation we're talking about the people who say, oh, I thought that I should be over this right now. I think of self talk like a language that we are teaching ourselves all the time. And so if in the emotionless moments, that's the language that we're using that oh I hate this, or this is bad, or I'm so this whatever, then how can we ever ever imagine to shift it in those times when we really do not feel good or we really don't believe in ourselves. If we're practicing it in the easy moments, then that's what we're gonna go back to, not necessarily because we believe it, but because it's easy. It's what we're fluent in. It's what we've already been speaking.

Yeah, So a lot of times we when I talk about dead end optimism, it's sort of a let's just it's called a cousin of toxic positivity. Okay. Dead End optimism is to be very blunt with this metaphor, like it is optimism that is going nowhere. Yeah, like it hits a dead end, but there's nowhere where it to go, so it just keeps. So, you know, I tell a story about carousels and so, and I love carousels, and it's very easy to just stay on and keep on going. And the thing that happens is eventually, if you just keep on going around on that carousel, carousel's going to break down. You're going to get really dizzy and disoriented, or people are going to be like, oh, well, that's what is that person doing, you know, like it's going to feel like fake and contrived that Oh I'm I'm just staying on these sort of plaster ponies that are going nowhere. And that's the way that I view dead end optimism, where it's not necessarily in the same exactly the same as toxic positivity, where toxic positivity will be just love and light over a negative situation. That is a form of dead end optimism. But I think the dead end optimism is a little more similar to casual negativity, which we'll talk about in a second, which it's the stuff that we don't even realize that we are doing, to that we think that we're doing with the goal of keeping ourselves happy, positive, and that can be as simple as people ask how you're doing, and do you always say I'm great, great, great, And it can be more of like the toxic positivity, where you're talking to other people and you're saying everything happens for a reason, which you know it's if I never heard that phrase again. I think there are so many other wonderful phrases that we can use, and it really it can get us in this loop of feeling like we need to be searching for happiness all the time, but happiness is pleading, happiness is oftentimes circumstantial. You mentioned casual negativity. It's the flip side of dead end optimism. Casual negativity is the negative talk and particularly self talk that we use that is as automatic and as emotionless as we say the sky is blue. So with dead end optimism, maybe someone is asking how you're doing, and you're really not doing fantastic, but you're like, I'm great, right, and that's just you know, your your default reaction. Casual negativity is saying like, ugh, I hate my body, or oh that was that was so that was so silly of me, without any emotion attached. This often comes up. I notice it with people in with self deprecation. And sometimes many times self deprecation can come from a real place, but a lot of times it can come from just a desire to connect with people. And that is a form of casual negativity that if we're going back to earlier in the conversation we're talking about the people who say, oh, I thought that I should be over this right now. I think of self talk like a language that we are teaching ourselves all the time. And so if in the emotionless moments, that's the language that we're using that oh I hate this, or this is bad, or I'm so this whatever, then how can we ever ever imagine to shift it in those times when we really do not feel good or we really don't believe in ourselves. If we're practicing it in the easy moments, then that's what we're gonna go back to, not necessarily because we believe it, but because it's easy. It's what we're fluent in. It's what we've already been speaking.

That makes so much sense to me, and I think it's so rap but then negative more to me than I mean, I'm sure that that positive I do. I'm not even thinking of examples, but you're right, it's like, I'm great, I'm this. It's like even when you're having a really hard day, and not that you should dump all your stuff on a stranger, but like, but you care your answers.

That makes so much sense to me, and I think it's so rap but then negative more to me than I mean, I'm sure that that positive I do. I'm not even thinking of examples, but you're right, it's like, I'm great, I'm this. It's like even when you're having a really hard day, and not that you should dump all your stuff on a stranger, but like, but you care your answers.

I always say mine. If people are like, okay, Katie, like that's great, but what do you say? People are like, how are you doing? I'm like I'm doing. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah yeah. And it sort of like makes people giggle because that's not an answer that many people give. So I gift that to your listeners right now. And it's also allowing me within myself to stay congruent and to stay I mean, it sounds like it's a small example, but that's an example of staying with an integrity in myself because I've got my own back and I'm not lying to myself, you know, back to that study, I am not saying I'm great and then walking away and saying, oh well, now I feel really bad because I'm not great. I know that I'm not great, just if you don't want to get into it, or if it's not the place or time or whatever, an answer to how are you doing saying I'm doing or you know, it's it's a lot right now or something like that. It can be as simple as that. But I think that it's so important for us to give ourselves the grace and space to meet ourselves exactly where we are over and over because what then also ends up happening If we're going back to the language metaphor, like we learn a language not just by practicing in our heads, but by practicing with other people, And when we practice that language with other people, then they also get to practice the language. So then just becomes this ripple effect. If you are giving yourself permission to meet yourself where you're at, that might give someone else permission to meet themselves where they're at, Like you have no idea how you are rickicheting off of all of the people in your life every single day, and that I view it as something that is really amazing and incredible, and it could go in multiple directions, but I believe that there is so much beauty and real change that can be made on a personal and more mapro level if just more people did.

I always say mine. If people are like, okay, Katie, like that's great, but what do you say? People are like, how are you doing? I'm like I'm doing. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah yeah. And it sort of like makes people giggle because that's not an answer that many people give. So I gift that to your listeners right now. And it's also allowing me within myself to stay congruent and to stay I mean, it sounds like it's a small example, but that's an example of staying with an integrity in myself because I've got my own back and I'm not lying to myself, you know, back to that study, I am not saying I'm great and then walking away and saying, oh well, now I feel really bad because I'm not great. I know that I'm not great, just if you don't want to get into it, or if it's not the place or time or whatever, an answer to how are you doing saying I'm doing or you know, it's it's a lot right now or something like that. It can be as simple as that. But I think that it's so important for us to give ourselves the grace and space to meet ourselves exactly where we are over and over because what then also ends up happening If we're going back to the language metaphor, like we learn a language not just by practicing in our heads, but by practicing with other people, And when we practice that language with other people, then they also get to practice the language. So then just becomes this ripple effect. If you are giving yourself permission to meet yourself where you're at, that might give someone else permission to meet themselves where they're at, Like you have no idea how you are rickicheting off of all of the people in your life every single day, and that I view it as something that is really amazing and incredible, and it could go in multiple directions, but I believe that there is so much beauty and real change that can be made on a personal and more mapro level if just more people did.

That, I do feel like the more honest I am with others, it's interesting to see the honesty I get back because I think it's once we set that, like you're saying, we set that foundation up, it kind of gives people a safety and that like, oh okay, cool, we're doing this, like we're not just like gonna fuzz through this. The other thing I wanted to point out, and I've always heard this, and I wish I had the study to reference, but that our body recognizes a joke or a serious statement as the same thing. So like, if you know, one of my things, and I think a lot of women probably struggle with this is the way I talk about my body like I feel fat today, or oh I feel bloated, or you know, like these pants look terrible or blah blah blah whatever it is that day. But I know I've really tried to start changing that because my body's amazing, like the things that it does, and you know, even if I feel like I'm in my best shape or my worst shape, it's still functioning every day in a way that is truly miraculous. Like the fact that our bodies do all the things that they do is insane, you know, And so really just trying to shift small things like that because over over time, like you don't realize, like you're cutting yourself down constantly, even if it's a quote unquote joke or if you're playing into the joke, like, oh, I'm just crazy. That's another big one I hear with women is like, oh, she's crazy or whatever, and it's like, no, she's not. She's having a reaction or a feeling or something, And I just don't like that word.

That, I do feel like the more honest I am with others, it's interesting to see the honesty I get back because I think it's once we set that, like you're saying, we set that foundation up, it kind of gives people a safety and that like, oh okay, cool, we're doing this, like we're not just like gonna fuzz through this. The other thing I wanted to point out, and I've always heard this, and I wish I had the study to reference, but that our body recognizes a joke or a serious statement as the same thing. So like, if you know, one of my things, and I think a lot of women probably struggle with this is the way I talk about my body like I feel fat today, or oh I feel bloated, or you know, like these pants look terrible or blah blah blah whatever it is that day. But I know I've really tried to start changing that because my body's amazing, like the things that it does, and you know, even if I feel like I'm in my best shape or my worst shape, it's still functioning every day in a way that is truly miraculous. Like the fact that our bodies do all the things that they do is insane, you know, And so really just trying to shift small things like that because over over time, like you don't realize, like you're cutting yourself down constantly, even if it's a quote unquote joke or if you're playing into the joke, like, oh, I'm just crazy. That's another big one I hear with women is like, oh, she's crazy or whatever, and it's like, no, she's not. She's having a reaction or a feeling or something, And I just don't like that word.

Yeah. Well, and there's so much historical I mean, that's like a whole other podcast, but there's so much like historical context around that, right it's a hysterical woman. Yeah, And and you know, women like being put into hospitals and being institutionalized, for getting their periods, for having feelings, for being honest. I mean, there is so much that if we really really were to zoom the lens out, we'd be like, oh, of course, so many of us are in the position we are right now when it comes to our self talk. Because this isn't just something that we one day woke up with this is that environment that we were born into that has been built over, you know, decades, centuries.

Yeah. Well, and there's so much historical I mean, that's like a whole other podcast, but there's so much like historical context around that, right it's a hysterical woman. Yeah, And and you know, women like being put into hospitals and being institutionalized, for getting their periods, for having feelings, for being honest. I mean, there is so much that if we really really were to zoom the lens out, we'd be like, oh, of course, so many of us are in the position we are right now when it comes to our self talk. Because this isn't just something that we one day woke up with this is that environment that we were born into that has been built over, you know, decades, centuries.

Oh yeah, it's the same for men. It's just different narratives exactly.

Oh yeah, it's the same for men. It's just different narratives exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's interesting and I talk about this a ton on the podcast that the listeners are probably like, oh, here she goes again, but.

And it's interesting and I talk about this a ton on the podcast that the listeners are probably like, oh, here she goes again, but.

I'm hearing it for the first time.

I'm hearing it for the first time.

But I think that it all ties in the way we're talking to ourselves and the narratives that we say in general. Like the big place that I've noticed it in my life is when I really started to switch narratives around dating, like the discussion between my friends as always there are no men in Nashville. Men suck men, you know, just like those kind of negative things, and I just one day was like, I'm not going to believe that anymore, and I'm going to start saying there are good men out there. There are men who are willing to do whatever it is that I wanted or whatever it was. And the more that I said it, it was just so interesting to watch what I was drawing in and it completely changed. So I can only imagine if we're doing that to ourselves constantly, if we change the narratives within ourselves, like what kind of things we're attracting and bringing into our lives with the shift of the narrative.

But I think that it all ties in the way we're talking to ourselves and the narratives that we say in general. Like the big place that I've noticed it in my life is when I really started to switch narratives around dating, like the discussion between my friends as always there are no men in Nashville. Men suck men, you know, just like those kind of negative things, and I just one day was like, I'm not going to believe that anymore, and I'm going to start saying there are good men out there. There are men who are willing to do whatever it is that I wanted or whatever it was. And the more that I said it, it was just so interesting to watch what I was drawing in and it completely changed. So I can only imagine if we're doing that to ourselves constantly, if we change the narratives within ourselves, like what kind of things we're attracting and bringing into our lives with the shift of the narrative.

I love that you just brought that up because I think that that's something that many of us have said at some point in time, right. But that's great example of you shifting because I'm sure that you have whether they are friends, relatives, colleagues, I'm sure you know some great men period in your life. So you saying that to yourself, that's you're telling yourself something that you already believe. But what I hear is you not only telling yourself that, but you deciding that you are going to then look for it. So the subtext that I hear is there are good men, so I'm going to go find them. And that is that is like the perfect example of a way to make a shift that is sustainable because you are starting with that seed of well, yeah, there are good men out there because I know them. They might not be available to me right now to date, I might not want to date that there are good men out there. Versus I think sometimes people can say things like you know, my person, my person is coming to me, They will be to me soon and that can be really hard because if you don't have something in your life that is starting that little seed of beliefs to be huge. But if you don't have that seed of belief that's started, which I think with that phrase in particular, that can be really hard for people. Then it's going to feel really tough and really really really really discouraging. You're saying this to someone who did not like to date whatsoever. And actually, my husband and I met when we were on one of the dating apps and I found a loophole in the app where I could start to block people. So it was people that I hadn't been matched with yet that they were just, you know, the if the app was matching me with maybe ninety eight percent and above pect a perfect fit if you will. These were the people who were ninety eight percent below ninety eight percent. So I was like, well, if I just cycle through these jokers, there's going to be no one on this app for me to talk to, and like, I am working the system. So I was just blocking, blocking, blocking, blocking, blocking, And I mentioned this story in the book. I got to my husband Jeremy's profile, and I had this feeling that was just the subjective feeling of oh, I know him, and I had never met him in my life. I obviously know that now, but I was in a place where, after being single for a very long time and after going on some not great dates, where I was just like, this is not for me. I was like, I'm not I'm not getting into something unless it's really something that I want to get into, unless it's really really worth my while because I have other wonderful things going on in my life, Like this person needs to enhance my life more than anything. I'm looking for someone to complete me. I'm looking for a teammate, and like, I know those exist because I have friends and family members who have that type of relationship with their partner. And also like I know that it's it's a little harder to find that person, but I don't really I don't really want to go out and seek them out. So I'm just going to cycle through these people. And it's just it's so funny because when he popped up on the app and it actually turned out that we did have a very odd mutual connection where his older brother was my ex boyfriend slash friend's best friend growing up when they were when they were kids. So I texted my friend and I was like, so, what know about this Jeremy person. He's like a lot, that's Josh's younger brother. But I had that sense of objectively, oh I know him, Oh this like you should look into this. And I couldn't ignore that. I mean even if I wanted to, I couldn't ignore that. But it wasn't it wasn't fueled by any other sort of narrative that I had had going on in my life. I just knew that I was looking for someone to enhance my life and whose life I could hopefully enhance. And I was like, well, when I feel something, I'll feel something, and when I don't, I don't, I won't. And so I felt something and I followed that feeling. I feel like dating is a really really great not always the easiest, but a really great example of places to shift your self talk.

I love that you just brought that up because I think that that's something that many of us have said at some point in time, right. But that's great example of you shifting because I'm sure that you have whether they are friends, relatives, colleagues, I'm sure you know some great men period in your life. So you saying that to yourself, that's you're telling yourself something that you already believe. But what I hear is you not only telling yourself that, but you deciding that you are going to then look for it. So the subtext that I hear is there are good men, so I'm going to go find them. And that is that is like the perfect example of a way to make a shift that is sustainable because you are starting with that seed of well, yeah, there are good men out there because I know them. They might not be available to me right now to date, I might not want to date that there are good men out there. Versus I think sometimes people can say things like you know, my person, my person is coming to me, They will be to me soon and that can be really hard because if you don't have something in your life that is starting that little seed of beliefs to be huge. But if you don't have that seed of belief that's started, which I think with that phrase in particular, that can be really hard for people. Then it's going to feel really tough and really really really really discouraging. You're saying this to someone who did not like to date whatsoever. And actually, my husband and I met when we were on one of the dating apps and I found a loophole in the app where I could start to block people. So it was people that I hadn't been matched with yet that they were just, you know, the if the app was matching me with maybe ninety eight percent and above pect a perfect fit if you will. These were the people who were ninety eight percent below ninety eight percent. So I was like, well, if I just cycle through these jokers, there's going to be no one on this app for me to talk to, and like, I am working the system. So I was just blocking, blocking, blocking, blocking, blocking, And I mentioned this story in the book. I got to my husband Jeremy's profile, and I had this feeling that was just the subjective feeling of oh, I know him, and I had never met him in my life. I obviously know that now, but I was in a place where, after being single for a very long time and after going on some not great dates, where I was just like, this is not for me. I was like, I'm not I'm not getting into something unless it's really something that I want to get into, unless it's really really worth my while because I have other wonderful things going on in my life, Like this person needs to enhance my life more than anything. I'm looking for someone to complete me. I'm looking for a teammate, and like, I know those exist because I have friends and family members who have that type of relationship with their partner. And also like I know that it's it's a little harder to find that person, but I don't really I don't really want to go out and seek them out. So I'm just going to cycle through these people. And it's just it's so funny because when he popped up on the app and it actually turned out that we did have a very odd mutual connection where his older brother was my ex boyfriend slash friend's best friend growing up when they were when they were kids. So I texted my friend and I was like, so, what know about this Jeremy person. He's like a lot, that's Josh's younger brother. But I had that sense of objectively, oh I know him, Oh this like you should look into this. And I couldn't ignore that. I mean even if I wanted to, I couldn't ignore that. But it wasn't it wasn't fueled by any other sort of narrative that I had had going on in my life. I just knew that I was looking for someone to enhance my life and whose life I could hopefully enhance. And I was like, well, when I feel something, I'll feel something, and when I don't, I don't, I won't. And so I felt something and I followed that feeling. I feel like dating is a really really great not always the easiest, but a really great example of places to shift your self talk.

You know.

You know.

Oh yes, there's so much self worth stuff that goes that's tied into all of that.

Oh yes, there's so much self worth stuff that goes that's tied into all of that.

Oh yeah, when you were saying the thing about the subtext behind well there are men, there are good men out there, and changing that narrative, the subtext subtext would be and I deserve that, and I am worthy of that, you know, like it did tie back into my own relationship with what I thought I was worthy of, which again ties into my negative self talk And where did that that narrative come from? And really diving into all of that with my relationship with myself and once I did shift those things, the things that I were drawing in just as far as the guys that I was dating, was completely different, Like just completely. It's just so interesting how much of our outer world really is a projection of what's happening internally.

Oh yeah, when you were saying the thing about the subtext behind well there are men, there are good men out there, and changing that narrative, the subtext subtext would be and I deserve that, and I am worthy of that, you know, like it did tie back into my own relationship with what I thought I was worthy of, which again ties into my negative self talk And where did that that narrative come from? And really diving into all of that with my relationship with myself and once I did shift those things, the things that I were drawing in just as far as the guys that I was dating, was completely different, Like just completely. It's just so interesting how much of our outer world really is a projection of what's happening internally.

Yeah, do you think that that was mostly because of you know, what we've talked about, or do you think it's partially because of like the I forget what the actual study is. But like when people talk about seeing the color red, if they say, okay, the color red is everywhere, then the only thing, oh yea is the color red? Like I want to raze it because is it because you were looking for those people or do you think that it was you know, that was what you were attracting or like a little bit of both.