This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast. So here's the thing about John Rowa. When I say that John Roa is a lifelong entrepreneur, a technologist, a philanthropist, a business investor, a writer, Or that he even founded and managed six technology companies since learning to program at age eleven, or that his largest company, Octa, went on to be one of the fastest growing companies in America in both two thousand thirteen and two thousand fourteen, and was then fully acquired by Salesforce in two thousand and fifteen. That all sounds really impressive, but that's actually not the reason I was drawn to talk to John. I heard a clip advertising his podcast, The John Rowa Show that openly discussed the mental breakdown that came as a result of all of that success, and that was what caught my interest. I'm drawn to people who want to get real and tell the truth about life, the truth about their imperfection even in their victory, and the oath that comes even after the breakdown. That is the movement that John Roa is starting with his podcast and other similar minded entrepreneurs, and that is what we talked about. Today. The greatest gift my podcast has given me is introducing and connecting me with people who may have different outward walks of life, but the inward struggles are all the same. That connection is the most beautiful thing on the planet to me, and I'm so grateful I got to experience it in hearing John's story. I hope you do too. Here's our conversation. Okay, so here's what I love. It's not necessarily about, you know, hearing about people who accomplish great things, because I think we hear a lot of stories like that, and I mean, obviously, don't get me wrong, that's super interesting, but I'm even more interested in the reality of what those accomplishments look like. You know, I think as a society, we focus just a lot on the things that hit big or the people, what people are known for, but we leave out all of that messiness that came before or after, and it just makes everyone listening to the great story feel like complete shit about their own abilities and their own life. So that's what honestly, that's what drew me to you. Um we both have podcasts on my heart, So I heard an ad for your new podcast, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But we started, You've started this conversation of building and selling this wildly successful business, which is what most people dream of, but then also on the other side of that, just having this almost nervous breakdown and all of the stuff that came with that. So I want to know that story. Um, So let's back up a little bit. Let's do a little bit of the back story, because I want people to understand you first. But um, will you just tell people? I know, I read that you started your first business when you were fifteen. Yeah, that's right. Yet, Okay, so if you always just had this entrepreneurial spirit I have, and I didn't even know there was a term for it, you know, like even pulling myself an entrepreneur. When I was young, all I wanted to do is solve problems. That's that's what how my brain works. So I'd see something that I just wasn't okay with, you know, with with existing, and immediately my brain would just kind of say, right, I gotta fix that. And as you as you get a bit, you know, older, and I did that as a child, right, and so as my teenage years, fixing the problem became like starting businesses to fix problems and so so yeah, I mean it's just how my brain is built. And you know, we we love to romanticize entrepreneurship and we love to um to look at like these tax c eos is kind of almost like the rock stars and celebrities of our day. But it's there's a lot of downsides that come along with the entrepreneurial mind. Um, it's not necessarily going to make your life that fund. You're not easy when your brain is always on and it's always like what can we change or solve or build or fix or and so you know it. And so I've been kind of cognizant of a lot of those kind of negatives of it because you can't ever just kind of be satiated and be chilled out. But yeah, when I was an early teenager, UM, I started programming, building computers, hacking like a proper tech nerd, kind of before it was like in vogue or today we're we're teaching like, you know, kindergarten students how to program it stuff like the whole different world today. But back then, you know, mid nineties, this was kind of an a typical path and I just I just loved computers. This was obsessed with everything about them and U and then the access that it gave us as your early age of the Internet, exploring stuff, breaking into stuff, hacking, doing wild ship and I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And then it's spun into us, and then it spun into about thirty five businesses over the next twenty years. Thirty five. That's my best number. I actually don't know how the stuff I well, I was gonna ask you because I mean you always hear out the business that actually puts people on the map. But how many businesses do you think you actually created before you had a super successful one? Was it the thirty five number? Well, here's the thing. It's like it's it's kind of hard to say because to me, creating businesses is like a very fluid thing. So you know, there's probably about six or seven companies that were like properly started, you know, like full startup um, you know, employees and revenue and like existed for years. There's probably another number of dozens that, like, you start and then you're like, wow, this is the dumbest thing ever done. I'm gon show this thing now. And so there's you know a number of fans like quick failures, then there's probably another hundred and fifty that I at least like theorized or put like a plan to and and all of that. So kind of hard to say like which which category you count as like starting a business, but you know, I've been in at least the theorization stage of hundreds probably at this point. So obviously the most successful business you're known for is ACTA. And I mean when you read about this company, it's your largest company. It went on to be one of the fastest growing companies in America in both two thousand thirteen and two thousand fourteen, and then you sold it um So you build it up, you sell it, and then you would think you would just ride off into the sunset and you live your best, most free, most amazing life. But what really happened, well, and this is the funny part is I technically did and ride off into the sunset. Well, what I did when I sold it was I went I've been living on an island in Greece the last four years, so I quite literally did go do that. The reason that I needed to do that is because you know, I started this company at twenty six years old, um, ten years ago. I'm thirty six now, so ten years ago almost exactly start this company. At this point, I have a lot of, um to call it, experience as an entrepreneur. And what I mean is a lot of failures, a lot of hard lessons. But I had no success. And so at twenty six years old, um, I I basically failed out of high school. I barely passed. I got kicked out of a few colleges. So I wasn't exactly an academic superstar. I had really never held a proper job because I just wanted to do my own thing, and so I was a couple of kind of silly jobs, but none of those worked out that well. And I'm from Detroit. My families from my father worked in the auto industry. So when the economy crashed, you know, over ten years ago in Detroit, crashed with it, my whole family was screwed over as well. He lost his job and a lot of his pensions. So but me and the family were not in a great position ten years ago, and I was. I was something like a hundred and eighty grand in debt total from private university, from traveling from star busnesses and so that came into forum, like student debt that came in the forum with maxed out credit cards. Like it was a really shitty point in my life. And uh, and it kind of got to this precipice, which is like, I mean, they're gonna figure it out now or probably never figure it out. It's just kind of like it was. It was basically like started tag company at works or go work at like Starbucks. And I don't mean that to be self deprecating. I mean literally like, just do anything to start making some money and just get back on my feet. I started they called doctor, and it was um completely done on a whim. Like it was a design and innovation consultancy. I'm not a designer, haven't started design. I don't know how to design. I just saw an opportunity in the marketplace and kind of stead of like I think this is a service that I can sell, and I think this is a service that people would want to buy and spend a lot of money on. And I'm pretty sure that if I can sell it, there's gonna be people I can then hire to do the work. And that was it. I mean that that was my entire basically yeah. So you know, this was at a point in time, you know, the iPhone release into how and seven and Apple kind of changed the game when it came to the appreciation of design that user experience at the consumer level. We kind of appreciated how much better good design is for for how we use a product, and then all these apps and stuff, and so my theory was like, Okay, everyone wants to design better stuff for their companies, for their products, apps, experiences, whatever, but it's very difficult to do, right. There's a reason that Apple is a trillion dollar companies is not an easy just so I I kind of figured that instead of every company trying to hire designers and build design teams, there must be room for a very modern kind of design consultancy where we would be kind of their outsourced design team for for lack of a better way to think about it. And and that was it. And so I kind of went to where the money is, which is in tech is venture capital. And so I want to do the investors. And again, I have no portfolio, no team, no experience. I have nothing to stand on except conviction. And so I go to the venture capital investors who are putting you know, millions of dollars into startups and basically said, if your portfolio companies can't build beautiful products, they're going to fail, and if they fail, you lose your millions of dollars. So I want you to earmark, you know, two grand of the two millions for me and my team. We will come in and make sure that your companies design amazing stuff for their products, and therefore it will make your investment more fruitful, right, and then reduce the chance of your investment failing. And that was my entire pitch and and it worked. And this is in Chicago twenty time. Like I said, so, we had a few venture capital firms and we basically started doing the design for all of their portfolio companies. And I just hired guys that I've worked with in the past and LA and other places around the country. And and you know, again, I'm not the designer, so I could kind of put together what I thought the company wanted, that I'd go hire somebody who can do the work. And that was how it started. And then you know, two years later, it's one of it's the thing. I think it's the single fastest growing agency in the country at the time. And one of the fastest companies of any kind of time. So it's just it just exploded. And you know, we had no investors, no board, I had no partners um, there was never any investors. I bootstrapped company the whole way. I think by next investment pre revenue was eight hundred dollars in the company UM and and so you know which best stuff All sounds cool, right you turned, you know, but one ends up happening to grow a company like that. And this is what I didn't realize out of just frankly ignorant and inexperience, was to you, you need capital with growing company. So it's got to come from somewhere. So I could have gone to investors, but when I wanted them, they didn't give a shit about me. And when they wanted me, I was like, you can go about yourself. You're too late, like you missed. I was like, I'm now doing this on my own. The problem with that is that it's got to come from somewhere. So I started taking personal guarantees on projects, and like, for instance, like you sign a you know, five year lease for twenty yrandom month or whatever, and someone has to personally guaranteed that like bankruptcy won't cut it. So I'd be signing my name in my life away at all this growth of the company, and you know, a couple of years in I probably have I don't know how many millions of dollars and personal guarantees against me. Well I'm still broke. I take that. I mean it's serious risk, and what that risk does to your psyche is good, especially when you're kind of feeling, you know, kind of a loan on an island, right Like, I didn't feel like I had a lot of support. I didn't feel like I could explain this anybody. I kept it all internal. Um. I didn't tell friends or family. I actually I think it was fine the whole time, which is very common amongst entpreneurs. You know, we were we we kind of thing's great. Um. You know, I think I wrote this in a book, but there's yum. You go into a room with like a hundred entreprene of person and and everyone is like, I'm crushing it. And you're like, well, if you are going out of business, so how are you all crushing it? You know, like everyone is so full of ship because we have to front this image that we know we're doing that. We're gonna, you know, make it, even though most of us won't. They're playing a loser's game, well, pretending we're winning the whole time. And so for me, it was like, Okay, the company's working, we are making money, we have employees, this is all good. At the same time, I'm like, this could die at any given second, and it's so I'm fucked for life. I'm not I'm not going to call out of this, maybe until I'm dead, you know. Like, so what that does to you is just really dangerous, right, And I'm you know, I've dealt with mental health is used my whole life, um more like garden variety stuff, and that was some anxiety and some levels of depression. When you get in that environment, everything becomes very real, right, and so it exacerbates all that to a huge degree. And so I started really struggling with my own mind and keeping everything moving forward. And then I started to walk down all of those kind of classic self destructive paths when you get there. And it's the same thing that like I now realized when you read some article about some like like the the Justin Bieber stuff, and like fifteen years ten years ago when he was like, you know, getting arrested, like stealing monkeys and driving Lamborghinis around and crashing and like you get it. You're like, there's this self destructive pattern you fall into because you're just like fun everything, like you can't handle it. You just want to kind of go out and break stuff. It's kind of where I got to. I was, I was angry, I was like you know, and I was also been at some point kind of making money, which which desperbates the whole thing even more. And so you know, I became a bit self destructive. And so it was a lot of you know, it was like working very hard, you know, suit and tie and crushing business. But then as soon as the kind of lights were off, it was like, you know, lot of partying. It was drugs, women, it was it was all of the vices and in mental health wrapped around all of that mental issues and it got pretty crazy. And then um to what you alluded to earlier, you know, the company is now crushing a huge company, and I had a full on mental breakdown, like not not a not not in the way people kind of say like, oh, I had a terrist breaking Like I had a proper mental breakdown, hospitalized for almost it was almost five days, UM within a few stay disassociate amnesia. It was it was bad. UM. You know, the chances had I not been twenty nine or whatever I was at thirty at the time, I probably wouldn't have survived it if I was like double that age, you know. But because I was young and you can kind of bounce back, I did. But it was it was touch and go. It was really scary. And that's when I kind of realized I had to make some some serious changes and UH and put a planet together to sell the company. And and you know, despite you're worried that the company is like it had died any second, the company is amazing. Thing that we built was a great company. But I just could never kind of fully kind of reconcile that. So we put a plan together and then UM five years ago, almost exactly, UM sold the company to Salesforce, who's the biggest tech company in San Francisco, and UM and it was great. You know that everyone was very happy with a deal, and all my employees UM got jobs at Salesforce, and most of them are actually still there, which is crazy. That's not normal. Acquisitions, and and I worked there for a bit as an executive. Didn't love it. It's hard to be a hired or acquired and executive, especially when you're still trying to fix your mind and body. And so I did some work on myself, some some work with a doctor, and then I took off and moved to Miconos, Greece and built a house and I've been living there in the last four years in the summers and then in London and the winters, and and I wrote a book about this. So the whole, the whole reason I'm back and having these discussions is that I really want to tell the real story to to what you said earlier, Like there's a lot of b s out there. There's a lot of people who who are not forthright about the real experiences, and and I wanted to kind of hopefully start a trend amongst entrepreneurs and amongst CEOs and stuff to be more open and honest. So I wrote this memoir. UM. It's called A Practical Way to Get Rich and Guy Trying UM, And it's with Penguin Random House and it comes out Kember eight. So I don't know when this podcast airs, but it might be close to that date. And it's everything I've told you. It is a gnarly wild twisting, sometimes sad, sometimes hilarious look at success um. And then off the back of that, we did the podcast. Yeah, there you go. There's everything, and I want to talk about both of those in detail. I have so many questions just hearing this initial story. I mean, I I want to go back a little bit, because how in the world are you running this insanely big, you know, fast growing company and doing all of the partying, all of the like crazy ship that you were doing, Like how were you functioning? You know? Well, there's two sides to it. The first is like I don't know right because I don't reflect the need stories and it is ridiculous. Like the stuff that we would do right before and right after significantly important business stuff was was so egregious, was so irresponsible. At the same time, I've now met a lot of entrepreneurs that make me look like you know, Pinocchio, you know what I mean. This is really and it's not just among entrepreneurs, Like think of like the you know, think of like Wall Street as hey Day, everyone's like coke and lunch and like, yeah, you know, hookers in the in the border at after the meetings like so, so the the the kind of connotation in the connection of excess and kind of self destructiveness with success is long run on a new thing. Um. But I think tech entrepreneurship being this like old rush and being so significant in our daily lives and everyone wants the chases this dragon. It's very common. It's very very common. Wow. I mean, yeah, I work in the music industry, so I've seen that a lot with new artists too. It's a very similar like the second you start to get big success, it's just I don't know if it's just so overwhelming or if it's a combination of overwhelming and exciting, and so you just kind of go for it. Um. I read somewhere just to interject, because I think this is a really important piece of that. I think, you know, and I've talked to so many people now, not just entrepreneurs, but athletes, musicians, everything else, and I think a lot of it comes down to imposter syndrome, because when you start best early, you kind of don't believe you're supposed to write, and then you're kind of like, oh, ship that. I like that I fake it to get here? Am I am? I not supposed to be here? Is someone going to find out that I'm a fraud? Like until you start to you start to really struggle to reconcile if you deserve it, if you've earned it, all those things, and that leads to just mental chaos, and I think that leads to a lot of that break. So that's a lot of what you were feeling when the company was growing. You feel like that just maybe, I mean I relate to that so much. I think everyone who has started to feel some sort of success or like I'm in a creative world and so I always go, oh my god, what are the people going to find me out? You know, like when are they going to just go she's not really as good as she is presenting herself, or she's like faked that she knows what she's doing, but really she's just figuring it out every day. Like were you feeling that as the business was growing every single day? Yeah? And it was like, um, it was like a ping pong match in my head. What do you mean? Like do you know what Newton's Cradle is one of those like in business class with those five balls, like you pull one to side and drop it and hit the fie balls and flies off the other side. Yes, that's what I felt like. It was going through my head all day. Like on one side, I was like I meant to do this. I deserve this. You know what I'm doing, right, Um, you know I'm capable, I'm smart, And that ball would drop and hit the other ones and the one flies off the other side, being like, you're a fraud, you faked it to get here, You're a liar. You don't deserve this. Um, you know this is gonna crumble and then everyone's gonna realize that you didn't know what you were doing. And then it would and then you would bounce back and you're like you're the man, and you just go back and forth and back and forth, and like it's it's maddening what that does to you. I almost wonder when I hear you say that, it feels a little bit like the battle between your ego and your critical voice inside of your head, you know, like, because your ego will tell you these things to pump you up, or like you deserve this, and and it's kind of this false sense of whatever that is, and then you have that critical voice is this complete opposite scales, so really like you're probably somewhere in the middle if you can get there, like mentally, but the vacillation between the two is so extreme it's crazy. And it's this is a and even amongst people that you're like, that person can't possibly have imposters. And and it's usually the people who are most ironically who are actually most qualified, have the most impostors in there, Like people who are kind of hacked. The actual frauds don't seem to have this. I's the ones who were actually meant to do it. Their brains have this struggle. Like there are quotes from like Maya Angelou and and Howard Schultz to see you on foundering Starbucks and Tom Hanks and these kind of people. I forget what Tom Hanks's exact quote was, but it's it's unbelievable. He's like, when are they going to figure out that I am a complete fraud? And I don't know how to act like you know, and you're like your Tom Hanks. I mean, it's it's crazy, but you generally don't hear it from people who actually are the kind of fraud Like I'm guessing these like C List actors and how they would aren't thinking this right, that they think that they're the ship. Yeah, it's the people who are really the highest levels of the highest function seem to struggle with this more, which is strange. Yeah. I mean I was reading. When I was reading, UM, a lot of your friends who are also very successful people wrote reviews of your book, which the book is called How to Get Rich and Die Trying. It's actually available for pre order now, so I'm gonna link it in the bio of this podcast, but it comes out on September eight. That can't wait to read it. But a lot of your friends, UM, did reviews of the book and they were shocked that you had all of these feelings in meldown. I mean, these are your friends, like people who knew you, and they said they were picking up the book thinking, oh, I'm just going to read about you know, John's success and the great story to rise and you know, accomplishing all these things, and they were like, what this is what was actually happening during this whole thing? I mean, so you kept this hidden from everyone everyone, UM, family, friends, because you know, part of it with self defense, Yeah, a mechanism because if people knew two things would happen. Number One, I'd have to explain it, which I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be in a position to have to explain what I was doing and why I was doing it. If you didn't have to explain it, you could kind of pretend it wasn't real. So that was part of it. The other part was that they would start to worry. Right naturally, your friends and family would help you, and I was like, you're not gonna be able to help me, you know it, Even though that's completely ridiculous. They probably could have done tremendous things for me. I didn't. I didn't believe anyone could help me. So I kind of had this mindset of like I'm going at this alone, like you guys, stay away and I'll let you know when i'm back kind of thing. Um And you know, like I was dating um, a wonderful woman when I started the company, and we lived together and whatever, and I broke up with her, and that my justification was I can't do both. I can't be a good boyfriend and run this company. And it's one of those things I was so convinced that I was, like, you can't do both, it's impossible whatever. Ten years later, I realized it might have been my greatest mistake not having partner and those kind of things, because I have a lot of highly successful friends today and the ones who were in loving, productive relationships are so much better at both life and business. Um, it's but it's these things I convinced myself. But I had made this rule book in my head for what I had to do, and I just refused to kind of you know, adjustice. Um, I read that you said we're so scared too, were so scared to admit that we aren't superheroes, And that was that was so interesting to me to think about because, you know, especially right now, I feel like with the social media world, everyone is constantly just trying to convince other people that we all have our ship together, right, Like it's just this constant like here's my best self, and none of us are actually doing that, Like it's all bullshit. So why do you think we're so scared to just admit that we can't do it all? I think there's two components, right. I think there's there's a natural inclination, especially amongst self starters and leaders, that we want people to believe in us, right, Like, if we're trying to start a business, you mean people to say like I'm gonna I'm gonnattach my wagon to that guy, you know what I mean? Like, and in that you're asking a lot from people, and so they need to at least we tend to think that they need to think that we are somehow as gift ded or as smart or as whatever that as possible. Therefore, the chances of them, you know, wanting to associate with us or invest in us, or believe in us or work for us or whatever it is will be heightened, right because it's it's it's twenty six and I'm starting accept if i'd gone or out of people being like I don't know what I'm doing, right, I am. I am winging it, you know, like it's unlikely get my first client R. Whereas I go to people and I'm like, I'm starting the best design company in the world and They're like, okay, you know, Like so I think that part of it is it works. And so because we we have a tendency to be drawn towards people who do appear to be superhuman. And this is why Celebritism exists today as it does not just today, it has for decades. You know, the reason that we photographed ms walking on the streets if they're not just sucking walking on the streets, Like it is not that interesting that later DiCaprio is going to the coffee, right, But we are obsessed with this glamorization of people that are somehow above us in some kind of way. Right, So I think that that's that's one component um. And the second is I think it is getting worse. And this what you allude to, ithis like the social media thing is there's just this kind of like there's just this constant battle to to be to fit into this narrative of whatever it is, beauty, success, whatever. And and if you're the one who's standing outside that narrative, if you feel like I might get left high, right, So like if everyone's having a good time, don't happen a good time too, even though it's likely none of us are. So I think as soon as that momentum comes, we feel somewhat like obligated to participate into it. I know I do it right, Like there's yeah, I mean even to this day, and I try so hard not to you know you're going to post the picture, and you're like, you of course have to grab the best and most perfect one, right if you have three options, if you have like completely like horrible photo of you and a good photo of you, have like one that's like banging, you're there's no way you're posting on the other two, right, And and you're kind of like, Okay, yeah, why would I Why would I show my not best self? But then you're also like, because I should, that's generally who I am if I not best self. But but we're kind of, you know, in somewhat this point trained, and people would even look at that visible why would you post this shitty photo of you? Right? And I think when you see people who are truly elevated above this and can be self deprecating and whatever, it's pretty amazing. But it's hard to do. It's freaking hard to do, and it's definitely hard to do consistently. Like I think, I like, there's some days do you feel this where it's like you know, you're like, you know, I'm gonna be wholeheartedly living my best life, but like my real life, and I'm gonna show people who I really am. And I can show up and do that, And then there's other days where I'm like fuck that, Like I need to look like a bad bit, you know, like post like the thing where I look the hottest I've ever looked from the best angle. Just I think we need both and I can't quite figure out what that is. But um, one of the things I've noticed in the pandemic is like kind of feel like people are getting a little exhausted of the perfect life ship. Like we're all kind of just in this collective trauma going yeah, it's not so perfect, Like this is hard, and I want to be honest about that, Like, have you noticed a shift at all? You know what I think it is. I think people are like overcorrecting because life is so shitty that people are like going in the other direction of like maybe even for showing that perfect life, to just correct for how fucked up things are. And in some ways, in some ways it's it's like if I just posted how mundane and shitty life can be, no one would really want the other obbligation. Like now that we're in this social validation world of likes and shares and like whatever retweets, I think there's that as well. Is you? Is you kind of build up this mindset of like no one wants to see when something bad happens. Like I'll be very honest, like yesterday for me, it was a fucking awful day. I had a very bad day yesterday. Um from a business perspective, like we got some kind of news I didn't want and like I was in the dumps yesterday. But I'm like, what am I What should I then do? Like post a video and explain how sad I am? Like it's just you know, it's like it's a weird. It's a weird thing, you know, because I'm sure some people would appreciate it. But I'm also like that, so I just want to like why would I just go out and tell the world that I'm sad today? You know. So it's a it's a strange place to be for sure. It's a fine line. Well, speaking of perfect life, I mean you mentioned that you have been living in Greece for what four or you lived in Greece for four years, and I mean when you hear your story, like you're in your thirties, you basically sell this company and make enough money to worry, like you wouldn't have to work another day in your life and like still live a luxury lifestyle and so like you do realize most people listening be like, oh okay, poor John. You know, like it's not like it doesn't necessarily for a person who gets up every day and goes to a nine or five job, like that sounds like a dream. So can you tell us that, Like, what does it actually feel like, because I mean, from outward, you know, the outward appearance, it sounds pretty freaking amazing. Well, I mean, and listen, a lot of it is. I'm not going to pretend like it's not. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to. I don't want sympathy. I'm not I don't want them to feel bad for what I experienced. Like the only person responsible to what I did to myself was me. And I'm not looking for any sympathy. I'm not looking for any you know, any of that. Um, you know, my life has been very polarizing. There has been some absolutely incredible things and some just so up, you know, horrible things, and they've kind of come in somewhat equal parts, and so, you know, and that's when you get into the book. I think, I think you'll see this is I I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm not even be looking for like I'm not suhere. The word is like there is there is a sense of redemption because I have some bad behavior. There's some things that I regret. So I have you know, grown up and evolved and I'm a better person today than I was. And so in some ways like redemption feels nice is personally I don't care iverybody else sees it that way. But there is absolutely no sense of like, oh look how hard it works become a millionaire. That book, the book is. The point of the book is like I want to be more open and honest about life, and I want to start with mine. I can't start with yours. I can start with mine. And so I want to talk about myself. I want to talk about breakdown and burnout and substance abuse and and you know, and and also informed ways that we could help each other and ways that I could have, you know, swarve myself out had I wanted to. So so just to kind of baseline it with that is, I'm not looking for sympathy. So with that's said, I mean parts of that we're looking awesome like, let's be honest, I I achieved my lifelong dream, right, I wanted to do my own and I and and yeah, I took a pretty pushed the bunk up, papping up there, but yes, I got there, and like she has, being your dream feels good. And then basically I felt this pulling which a lot of entrepreneur, especially in tech, do, which is you've made your money, now go do it again. And and and it's amazing because the moment you tell the company, everyone in the world like, what are you doing next? What's next company? How much can I investine me? And And I've seen so many people do this, so many entrepreneurs go right back into the game. And I'm like, fuck that. I'm just like feeling anywhere near that again. And my my best friend Hamsa and I were in Chicago. I was, well, we were actually in l A. I was dating a girl in l A. Um, we just started dating. And She's kind of like, we should go on vacation. You know, I'm just going to meek and out screeze. And so we went and I a should brought ham some of my best friends with me, which was a really funny trip. Get to Greece, and you know, at this point, I'm on no employment, I have no restriction, I have no I have nothing. I can literally do whatever I want, which is a very strange places. You know, yeah, yeah, that it is very odd to you have worked as hard as I did and then just one day you wake up and you're like, no one cares any more. That's very odd. There's nothing. There's nothing, there's no employees, there's no schedules, no less systems, there's nothing. It's very strange. So we go to this island and it's a very special place and it's I just I don't know, I walked off that planet and I just come was like, this is where I want to beach for a while. I don't want to get kind of fall back in those traps. And the girl friend I did last very long, but that's friends state with me. And I built a house. I built, you know, kind of this you know, this dream house. And and then I met some guys who are opening like a beach club and messaging that and I just said like I'm gonna I'm gonna try to reset and I'm gonna try to just enjoy life for for a walk. And that's what happened for you know, for summers um and I'm living in London in a between around Europe. Uh. But then ultimately, you know, you can't do that forever. And yes, like I'm not going to pretend that like it was bad. It was. It was a great time my life. It was frankly the best or years I've ever had in my life period. Um, but you can't do that forever. And I want to become this island bum who's like sixty years old, still running around and and and I also got very passionate about telling this story and talking about these issues and kind of bringing this to LFE. So that's why I wrote the book. I wrote it over the over sold it to Random House in nineteen and then we're now here in to come out. And that's what brought me back to the US. Yeah. Well, and I really like that you're actually telling this story because again, what we always see and even what you've admitted to presenting while your company was growing during the sale, all of that stuff is just perfection and knowing what you're doing. And I think that it's such an important conversation. Um that like the money or the flashy life, and like celebrity or whatever it is that you have it, it doesn't take away from basic human needs. Right, So, like, no matter what your life looks like on the outside, like we all are still connected on that level. Like we all have these same needs, we all have these these same feelings, and we're not superheroes at the end of the day, not not even close. And in fact, the people that I think we like to believe our superheroes are probably the most flawed of anybody. Yeah, you know, the people that we that we publicly like look up to are usually not not always right, but generally I would say in my experience with such people, like they have a higher level of of um, you know, kind of imbalance in their in their personal lives. And it makes sense write a lot of pressure lives, stress and also having that brain that kind of keep with some new stuff and to become that point zero one per center of whatever it is you do to be the best at your craft. You're you're not gonna table person, You're just not. Yeah, So was it worth it? Like if you could go back, would you just get a normal life and you know, or get a normal job, live a simple life, or do you think you would do this again. Well, So to separate the questions, was it worth it, Yes, but only because I know the result, and so no, I wouldn't do it again. And so that's that's a nuance because with with reading the story to the end, it's worth it only because it worked, right, But there were so many ways it couldn't have worked, and if it hadn't worked, it would not have been worked. So if I had to go back and do again, and not knowing that, it would be the exact saying like if you said, right, we're gonna teleport you back ten years, try to do it again, but like variables will change, I never would because it had to have worked the way it did. Um. People even say like, what would you do differently? And it's like, well, there are things that fundamentally I would do differently, right, Like I would probably have maintained our relationship and not gone at this alone. I would have probably engaged for therapists. I would have probably not become a degenerate party boy. Right, Like, there's a number of things that I would have I can say I do differently, But what if those didn't lead to a different results? Right? What what if? What if trying to be a you know, an an engaged boyfriend, and what if um, you know, getting therapy that would kind of slow you down and kind of eating route would have dulled my spear right and and made me not as effective at what I did. So I don't know if that's true. I'm just saying that my particular story, I can't say I would. I would want to do differently because it achieved a result, But philosophically, like, yeah, I mean I regret a lot of what happened, and like I'm still paying some prices for it, right, I still have ongoing mental issues from the breakdown. My memory is shipped and other things happened, so you know, like, you know, there's a lot of reflection. But it's a very nuance thing to say, Like, but I want the normal life. No, I'm just not built that way. I you know, I've known that for a very long time. Do I want a more normal life now? Yeah? I actually live more than life now. I live in Manhattan, you know, still enjoy life, but like it is pretty relaxed. You know. I do my podcast, and I had my book, and I my friends, and like life is not what it was, and I never want to go back to it. Yeah. Well, we've mentioned your podcast a couple of times and it's how I found you. It's called the John row Is Show. I was actually listening yesterday to the one that you did with Kean Harold, who is amazing by the way his I mean amazing, um. But at the end, you guys were talking about the entrepreneur addiction. So what is the entrepreneur addiction? And again I can't speak for anybody. And one thing about prepreneurship is there hasn't been enough studies done. There hasn't enough you know kind of work done to truly understand it. So a lot of this is conjectured. But you know, what you do find is that, you know, entreprene entrepreneurial mind is something that's biology created or born with it, right, and it's kind of like the athletic mind and body or the you know whatever, Like there's a predisposition for this path. It doesn't mean you're going to make it, but you're predisposte attracted to the things that entrepreneurs need to be attracted to. So you like risk, you like solving problems, and you like being in charge, like all of those things. Are kind of prey. And what I've observed is you see a lot of people who get pretty addicted to it and it becomes very much their identity because when they're when there the CEO in the driver's seat, you know, you do there are times that you just feel a bit too cool, right, Like people want, you know, they want to do stuff with you, they want to take you out, they want to you know, going to interview. You're being photographed and people know who you are, and like, I got awesome, I can ask for an in for autographed thems. I'm like really, like, I'm the CEO of a tech company. It's like, I mean that was like somebody in Chicago who would like seen me in some you know, newspaper. It wasn't like a big thing, but it's it's almost like, as dumb as that sounds, you're kind of like, this is this is cool, you know, And there are those moments you get drawn to that. And then having been on the other side where it totally goes away where no one gave a shit about it, that I was free to tell you that's better and I'm glad that what I don't have is an addictive personality. I've I've done a lot of things that you know, the you know, the kind of the drug sex and rock and roll thing. But I was never addicted to any of it. If I was, if I truly had that personality, i'd be dead. That's probably a long time ago. I did it all because it kind of met met that I needed to do to free my brain and whatever. So the same with entrepreneurship. I could totally see the draw going right back in and doing it again. I want to be important again, I want to be photographed again. I wanted to you know, see those that those checks hitting my bank account, like all of that was a draw. Thankfully I didn't get caught up in it. But a lot of people do, and a lot of serial entrepreneurs do. And it's they do it forever, you know. They do it, you know, far past where there's enjoyment, far past where there then they have of value. They can't get richer, they can't, you know, and they still need their families behind it, the lives behind They still chase it forever. And it's like you see it quite a bit. So do you think you'll ever just retire? No? I mean, you know, I never do nothing. I just enjoy doing things too much. But but with that said, like my criteria for where my energy goes is far more specific and kind of far higher bar. And so, like you know, right now, I have you know, the book in the podcast. That are two awesome projects. And I'm working on on a on a screenplay kind of loosely based around the book with some guys in Hollywood, which is really exciting. That's another cool, kind of like fun creative project. I am fearized start up that I would, you know, i'd be in charge of, but like you know, I feel one million times more capable to like balance all this out and to do it without it becoming destructive. And it's a startup that is with somebody who's a pretty big figure in Hollywood, and it would be something that's like not only enjoyable to do, but it's it's like a really cool um premise. It would help people, it would it would actually enhance the livelihoods, and so stuff like that is what draws me to it these days. But like, I'll never go back to what I was doing. It will letter be all I want anymore. And like, you know, I really do want a family, you know, I want to meet somebody. I want to you know, that's my next phase of my life that I'm really am ready for, and especially when that happens, the balance will all be that direction, Like I will never compromise that, Like I've I've seen everything enough to know what that takes to do right, and I'll never it caught back up in that. So what are that I asked you this earlier before we got on the phone, and I said, I want to know the top three tips that you would give all young entrepreneurs. And it sounds like, you know, everyone's story is very different, and you seem to me like you've become the person you've become because of your experiences. So I would imagine it's a little difficult to tell anyone to do any one step specifically. But could you narrow it down to maybe some top things that you know either you regret or that you know, just tips you would give if you could go back, that you would just do it differently. Yeah, I mean you just hit the nail on the head. Is that I I don't often give advice because I never felt like I knew what I was doing, and I feel like advice is one of those things that we do to kind of sound and feel smart, you know, like like if I'm eight of advice, that must mean I'm like and I don't believe I think it's smart in anybody. So but with that said, I think there are some things like and this is my kind of why arranging advice. The first one I would give to anybody who thinks they want to do this is don't do it. And what I mean by that is is you have to be so locked in and wanting to do this that if someone like me saying don't do it, it's not for you to be like, Okay, I guess I shouldn't do it. You're not gonna go very far right. I wrote this article on medium that got a lot of traction. It was called give me thirty minutes and I will kill your entrepreneurial dream. And what I wrote is people call me all the time. People you know, I love talking to people who have ideas or whatever, and I don't I don't sit there and like shoot the ideas down. I just asked them all the hard questions that no one's probably asked, and by the end of that call, I would say five percent of the time they're like, Okay, yeah, I'm not going to do this. And the reason I enjoyed doing that is because if if this was really like you're calling or your dream, no body in the world is going to stop you, especially random dude on the phone. But if I've talked to you out of your quote unquote dream in thirty minutes, it's not a dream and you're going to fail anyway. I just save you a bunch of time. So so kind of like the tough love of like you really got to be built for this before you go do it is kind of number one um for the people that cross that chasm, right, the people who are kind of say I'm gonna go do this. You know. This is something that I've talked a lot of my friends about who have have gone down kind of the venture path is like, you can't force anything that's the true. You can force it, but you shouldn't force it. When it comes to ideas and startups. Um, I forced Octa. I I brute forced that thing to work, and that's what made it so difficult, Like this wasn't this nice organically building thing. And I've realized now that the best ideas in the world they have a tendency to naturally start occurring and you you build this natural momentum and you you're doing the right thing, and if you have to force it too much, it's kind of like the romantic relationship, right, like if you're just kind of start working, if it's gonna be tough, absolutely, are you gonna have fights, Absolutely, They're gonna be challenges along the way, absolutely, But like it's actually at the beginning. If you're like kicking and screaming and you're like, you know, fighting really and you're trying to force this thing together, it's probably not the right relationship for you. And I think that startups the exact same thing. Like if you get an idea, you start sharing to people and people get excited, and you meet this person and this thing comes up and like all of a sudden, this you know, and on these piece start forming in front of you. You've got to know you've got something. So whereas if you're just kicking and screaming to make people listening to you and you're getting no momentum, there's probably a pretty good reason for that um, which which I think goes into number into advice number three, which is you gotta be ready to kill ideas very fast, very freaking fast, Like the moment that you have those indicators that this is not the right thing, shoot that fucker dead and move on to the next one. Like, do not get caught up in it. Do not think that, you know, like people just don't get it, you know, I just need to keep working. It's like now people get it, you know, Like you know, you should see momentum pretty quickly. If you're onto something, not instantly, you gotta put the work in. But like, do not get to wed to an idea. Ideas are worthless, completely worthless. What's what matters is execution and and if and if you're not getting that traction, that momentum, you're probably not going on the white path. So either change it or kill it. How do you not take it personal? Though? You know, I think that that's something you have to be evolved into, because especially in the early days, entrepreneurship is very personal. Right, It's your idea, your baby. You hear that all the time. This is my baby. And I remember thinking that. I remember having certain early six nature as well, like I had a familial or even like parental kind of like attachment to my ideas and I failed every single time because you you're not A business is not your baby. And I wrote this in the book, The business is like a big cold steel ball that you're pushing up the hill of the entire time you're doing the business, like this thing has no personality. This thing is not your baby. And granted you'll of course have some personal attach and I'm obviously being you know, overtly like dramatic to make my point, but the notion is you need to do whatever you need to do to make this thing work. And if that means, like, if you're super attached some idea as something the wrong one, you got to kill it and do a new life here. And someone tells your ideas like and it's a person that you should listen to. You gotta listen to that and not be like, oh, they just don't get it, you know, like this person doesn't understand me. Like no, you know, you need to be able to adapt very very quickly. And the more attachment you have can really be destructive for startups. Interesting. Well, the book is called How to Get Rich and Die Trying. It's available for pre order now in the link that I'm gonna put in this podcast bio. It's out on September eight. The podcast is called The John Rowan Show. Can you give us just a couple of details about what kind of things you'll be talking about? I know you do mostly interviews, but like, what kind of people are you interviewing? Yeah? Yeah, definitely. So the guests on the interview are all super successful people, right, So these are the point that point with you're a one percent I talked about earlier of whatever their craft is, and so there's going to be athletes and musicians and CEOs and everything else of the sort. And really we're having a discussion like you and I just had. I The only thing I asked with them is hyper honesty. We have no scripted, no questions. I want them to tell how it is. And so I only find guests who are kind of at that point of their life and career, but they can have that discussion, right, So we hit on all topics to tell crazy stories. But it's like this is this is raw, hyper honest discussion. And to me, that's how you learn. Right, if if somebody comes down just gives their fucking press like pr speech, there's something to learn there, right, they're just selling they're telling you what they think that you want to Here when a person can open up and everyone can't do this right, like, this is why we work very hard. I'm certain kind of guests like me, ten years ago, I couldn't have done this. I couldn't have told my real ship because I was still acting that role. So I find people that are kind of at that point where they can come in and do this and have this real discussion. And to me, there's so much wisdom and insight to be gleaned from those chats. So so yeah, that's the that's the podcast. It's every Monday morning that comes out, and and yeah, it's been an absolute blast to do and every single discussion. When I finished with my my guest, I feel so empowered and so much more intelligent than I didn't we started the discussion because you're connecting, right, That's that's what we all want ultimately anyway, we want to and we want to learn, right, I always want to learn new thing. And if you if you give me some fucking business leadership book or some motivational speaker, I don't war I'm saying, right, I just learned how funderling they are. That's all that's all I learned. Whereas when you hear somebody who's like, you know, someone who's in saying the success will talk like properly raw about whatever their experience in life is, that's when, at least for me, that's when I really learned. I agree with that, John Roa, thank you so much for being here, and seriously thank you for your vulnerability and just the willingness to talk about the hard stuff. I really have enjoyed the podcast so far. I can't wait to hear what other conversations do you have? Tell people where else they can find you? Yeah, so um, we keep a social media account running just my name John Rolla j H r o A UM. And then the podcast has its own show, our own handles, the John Rowa Show. The website is Rolla dot com r o a dot com that has all the good stuff and um. And then like you said that, the book A Practical Way to Get Rich and Diet Trying is for pre sale now and comes out in September eight, so so hopefully people pick that up. And I love to talk to people out, you know, whatever they experience reading the book or questions they have, so um, I try to respond to like messages and m so like, do you get in touch? It does anything you guys want to speak about? UM, and obviously would love for you guys to listen to the podcast and UM and Kelly, I've been enjoying yours and so I appreciate you having on discussion and and yeah, I really do appreciate the opportunity. Well, thank you so much again, you guys, go check out genre the John row A show. A Practical Way to Get Rich and die Trying. I think I've been saying how to get rich. I'm so sorry, but it's a practical way to get rich and die trying. Definitely pre order that nonimal would you say it's a long title. If it is a long title, But I actually love it because it sucks you in because I was like, oh, a practical way to get rich? Perfect, oh and die trying? Okay, cool, all right, John, thank you again, and thank you guys for listening.