I get a team. I hope you're great. Our favorite one of our favorite geeks. I better not say favorite geeks, because we have quite a few, but definitely our favorite professor of cellular and molecular biology. Did I get that right, Doc rov yep, that's close enough. Definitely that is back, Doctor Bill Sullivan. Welcome back to the U projects. Good to see you again, sir.

I get a team. I hope you're great. Our favorite one of our favorite geeks. I better not say favorite geeks, because we have quite a few, but definitely our favorite professor of cellular and molecular biology. Did I get that right, Doc rov yep, that's close enough. Definitely that is back, Doctor Bill Sullivan. Welcome back to the U projects. Good to see you again, sir.

Good to see you now you and RTD coming along.

Good to see you now you and RTD coming along.

Don't ask it. Well, I'm at the writing stage, so I've done all my all, my research has done all my Now it's a different system over here, but yeah, so all my all my studies and research is done on my data is in. I'm just writing papers now and writing I've got to I've got to have two, preferably three papers published, and I've got to write my thesis, which is about eighty thousand words. I'm doing all of that. You have to get what's called academic milestones here where you've got to stand in front of a panel in my university, Monash University, in the neuroscience neurocyclab you've got to do four times in front of them and get four green lights, which I've finished. I'm done, so I'm kind of on the home straight, so I hope, I hope to hand everything in in about four months. But then you've got to get feedback and so we'll see.

Don't ask it. Well, I'm at the writing stage, so I've done all my all, my research has done all my Now it's a different system over here, but yeah, so all my all my studies and research is done on my data is in. I'm just writing papers now and writing I've got to I've got to have two, preferably three papers published, and I've got to write my thesis, which is about eighty thousand words. I'm doing all of that. You have to get what's called academic milestones here where you've got to stand in front of a panel in my university, Monash University, in the neuroscience neurocyclab you've got to do four times in front of them and get four green lights, which I've finished. I'm done, so I'm kind of on the home straight, so I hope, I hope to hand everything in in about four months. But then you've got to get feedback and so we'll see.

But it's a process. But congratulations are making it so far. The AX defense is probably one of the biggest hurdles.

But it's a process. But congratulations are making it so far. The AX defense is probably one of the biggest hurdles.

Do you know what for somebody who last week, So we're recording this Monday, eleven thirty four Australian time or Melbourne time anyway. Last week I did four presentations, like thousands of people I spoke to last week. Two of the events were nearly a thousand people at each event. I'm so comfortable up there. It's just my thing. That's like my happy place. Blah blah blah. I stand in front of all professors. I am so fucking terrified. I am like I have because I don't you know, well, it's not my natural habitat right. And obviously I'm a lot more comfortable and familiar now November one, it'll be five years, so it's more normal and more natural now. But oh my god, Doc, it's like for me, for somebody who's relatively confident talking and doing what I do for a living, You've never seen anyone more inept. You would never pick that I'm a professional speaker. Watching me in front of those four.

Do you know what for somebody who last week, So we're recording this Monday, eleven thirty four Australian time or Melbourne time anyway. Last week I did four presentations, like thousands of people I spoke to last week. Two of the events were nearly a thousand people at each event. I'm so comfortable up there. It's just my thing. That's like my happy place. Blah blah blah. I stand in front of all professors. I am so fucking terrified. I am like I have because I don't you know, well, it's not my natural habitat right. And obviously I'm a lot more comfortable and familiar now November one, it'll be five years, so it's more normal and more natural now. But oh my god, Doc, it's like for me, for somebody who's relatively confident talking and doing what I do for a living, You've never seen anyone more inept. You would never pick that I'm a professional speaker. Watching me in front of those four.

It's a very different audience. You go from a bunch of people who might be nodding their heads to a bunch of people who are shaking it the other way and just looking for, you know, the holes in your knowledge. And once you lead a little it's like sharks, right, they sense that little bit of blood and they will go after that topic that you might not be so familiar with. It's rigorous.

It's a very different audience. You go from a bunch of people who might be nodding their heads to a bunch of people who are shaking it the other way and just looking for, you know, the holes in your knowledge. And once you lead a little it's like sharks, right, they sense that little bit of blood and they will go after that topic that you might not be so familiar with. It's rigorous.

Look, I mean, I think they were quite kind to me, but at the same time they're obviously I mean, their job is not to make me feel good. Their job is not to nod or smile or agree of course one percent right, And you've probably done lots of presentations where your audience is at least somewhere between somewhat receptive and what we would call warm. Like a warm audience is they want to hear you, they like you, you know, it's all round. It's a pretty good experience. But when you stand in front of an academic panel, I call it going to court, because it's like going to court. You're yeah, you're just another student. Of course, you're just another student and you're just number whatever number you are, and you're doing this doctoral program and you're researching this stuff and ready set off you go. So but very good for me because you know it's I think that for me anyway, that getting in a different place, in a different environment, being really uncomfortable and also being to be honest, especially initially somewhat inept, you know, learning to do academia after twenty years away from university and I mean a different level. Obviously for me, it was just a massive learning curve. And I said this the other day. I was talking this big audience about insecurity and self doubt and overthinking and imposter syndrome, and I said, I know, I look confident and we were talking about, you know, just all this kind of stuff. I said, honestly, for the first four months of my PhD, the thing I thought about most is how do I get out of this without being totally publicly humiliated, because I don't know if I can do it.

Look, I mean, I think they were quite kind to me, but at the same time they're obviously I mean, their job is not to make me feel good. Their job is not to nod or smile or agree of course one percent right, And you've probably done lots of presentations where your audience is at least somewhere between somewhat receptive and what we would call warm. Like a warm audience is they want to hear you, they like you, you know, it's all round. It's a pretty good experience. But when you stand in front of an academic panel, I call it going to court, because it's like going to court. You're yeah, you're just another student. Of course, you're just another student and you're just number whatever number you are, and you're doing this doctoral program and you're researching this stuff and ready set off you go. So but very good for me because you know it's I think that for me anyway, that getting in a different place, in a different environment, being really uncomfortable and also being to be honest, especially initially somewhat inept, you know, learning to do academia after twenty years away from university and I mean a different level. Obviously for me, it was just a massive learning curve. And I said this the other day. I was talking this big audience about insecurity and self doubt and overthinking and imposter syndrome, and I said, I know, I look confident and we were talking about, you know, just all this kind of stuff. I said, honestly, for the first four months of my PhD, the thing I thought about most is how do I get out of this without being totally publicly humiliated, because I don't know if I can do it.

Yeah, it's tough, but as one of my former mentors told me, you know, the process has value. These individuals aren't up there to be mean or cruel. It's to expose what you know and what you don't know. And it's easier to say this than actually do it. But that is a worthwhile process because when you see the gaps in your knowledge, that's a learning experience and it tells you what you need to focus on, what you need to do a deeper dive on, and it tells you what you do know. So that's that's the part of the process that's good. And from someone who's in the sciences, you know, if I'm out talking about science to a general to the general public, and just like science, communicating or telling them really fascinating aspects about biology or what have you, that's a whole different ballgame than talking to people about your own research and what you think you discovered in the lab. Because they are looking for problems, they are looking for flaws, and that is for the benefit of moving science forward. It's not to be mean, it's not to be cruel. It is to try to get to the truth or as close as humans can possibly approximate it. And in the science, you know that that in the sciences, it's critically important to have people more or less rip your work apart, because if you are promoting a certain discovery and it's wrong that's going to damage the entire field.

Yeah, it's tough, but as one of my former mentors told me, you know, the process has value. These individuals aren't up there to be mean or cruel. It's to expose what you know and what you don't know. And it's easier to say this than actually do it. But that is a worthwhile process because when you see the gaps in your knowledge, that's a learning experience and it tells you what you need to focus on, what you need to do a deeper dive on, and it tells you what you do know. So that's that's the part of the process that's good. And from someone who's in the sciences, you know, if I'm out talking about science to a general to the general public, and just like science, communicating or telling them really fascinating aspects about biology or what have you, that's a whole different ballgame than talking to people about your own research and what you think you discovered in the lab. Because they are looking for problems, they are looking for flaws, and that is for the benefit of moving science forward. It's not to be mean, it's not to be cruel. It is to try to get to the truth or as close as humans can possibly approximate it. And in the science, you know that that in the sciences, it's critically important to have people more or less rip your work apart, because if you are promoting a certain discovery and it's wrong that's going to damage the entire field.

Yeahcent agree. And it's I'm lucky because because I'm both a student and you know, a speaker, so I get to I get to learn in a different way and understand and research and have these kind of light bulb moments and revelations, and then I go to talk, you know, like the next day, I got to talk to a room full of people, and I can I can unpas my own research and my own not only the research, but also my own thoughts and insights in a manner where like you said, now you're being the science communicator and you're trying to share these what can be complicated thoughts and ideas and constructs in a way which not only makes sense to people, but perhaps is a genesis for them to go and explore more. You know, Like even when I just say to people, do you ever think about how you think and why you think the way you think? And like the origin story of your thinking? You know? And people like this, so I don't, Yeah, and do you ever think really deeply think about how other people think? And without judging or critics, but just why does she think the way that she think? Where does that come from? And what is she thinking right now? And what is her experience not mine? You know, we're in the same conversation but not the same experience. I wonder what her experience is. And so when you know that. I don't know who originally said it, but Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand and then to be understood. You know, just that if I can start when I'm in an interpersonal exchange, whether it's me and one hundred or me in one or me in a podcast audience like we are now, and I can try to get some insight into who I'm talking to and I care about that, then I'm probably going to do a better job at building connection and rapport and you know trust, I guess over time.

Yeahcent agree. And it's I'm lucky because because I'm both a student and you know, a speaker, so I get to I get to learn in a different way and understand and research and have these kind of light bulb moments and revelations, and then I go to talk, you know, like the next day, I got to talk to a room full of people, and I can I can unpas my own research and my own not only the research, but also my own thoughts and insights in a manner where like you said, now you're being the science communicator and you're trying to share these what can be complicated thoughts and ideas and constructs in a way which not only makes sense to people, but perhaps is a genesis for them to go and explore more. You know, Like even when I just say to people, do you ever think about how you think and why you think the way you think? And like the origin story of your thinking? You know? And people like this, so I don't, Yeah, and do you ever think really deeply think about how other people think? And without judging or critics, but just why does she think the way that she think? Where does that come from? And what is she thinking right now? And what is her experience not mine? You know, we're in the same conversation but not the same experience. I wonder what her experience is. And so when you know that. I don't know who originally said it, but Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand and then to be understood. You know, just that if I can start when I'm in an interpersonal exchange, whether it's me and one hundred or me in one or me in a podcast audience like we are now, and I can try to get some insight into who I'm talking to and I care about that, then I'm probably going to do a better job at building connection and rapport and you know trust, I guess over time.

Yeah, yeah, well that was one of the major motivations of writing my book, Pleased to Meet Me, was trying to understand not only myself, but other people who don't operate the same way I do, or don't believe or think the same things. I think a lot of us and I'm not trying to, you know, you know, be mean to anyone here, but I think a lot of us just walk through life without thinking about such questions. We're kind of on automatic pilot zombie kind of if you will. And all it takes sometimes is one person to say, have you ever considered why you do this particular behavior or why someone else would never do such a thing? You know, just you know, those basic questions going back to the Greek philosophers who said no they self, which is something that can't be said enough in you know, during the education process. And I don't think a lot of people let it sink in.

Yeah, yeah, well that was one of the major motivations of writing my book, Pleased to Meet Me, was trying to understand not only myself, but other people who don't operate the same way I do, or don't believe or think the same things. I think a lot of us and I'm not trying to, you know, you know, be mean to anyone here, but I think a lot of us just walk through life without thinking about such questions. We're kind of on automatic pilot zombie kind of if you will. And all it takes sometimes is one person to say, have you ever considered why you do this particular behavior or why someone else would never do such a thing? You know, just you know, those basic questions going back to the Greek philosophers who said no they self, which is something that can't be said enough in you know, during the education process. And I don't think a lot of people let it sink in.

Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying you're not doing it, saying it to be mean, and you're not. I'm the same. It's like it's self awareness, not self loathing. It's like just yeah, you know, it's like do I get things wrong all the time regularly, Okay, so don't beat yourself up. Just recognize or try to recognize what you're doing wrong or where you're flawed, or where your ideas really don't match the reality or the facts. And then then you know, open the awareness door and the humility door and the student's mind like just you know, it's it's that need to be right that is such a psychological and emotional and educational handicap. It's like absolutely, you know, if you have to be right, good luck being a good student.

Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying you're not doing it, saying it to be mean, and you're not. I'm the same. It's like it's self awareness, not self loathing. It's like just yeah, you know, it's like do I get things wrong all the time regularly, Okay, so don't beat yourself up. Just recognize or try to recognize what you're doing wrong or where you're flawed, or where your ideas really don't match the reality or the facts. And then then you know, open the awareness door and the humility door and the student's mind like just you know, it's it's that need to be right that is such a psychological and emotional and educational handicap. It's like absolutely, you know, if you have to be right, good luck being a good student.

Yeah or yeah. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble that way. And I would never want to go through life with that kind of attitude because there's nothing more to learn, right, You're not growing, You're kind of just stunted and you're fruzen there. And to me, that's a really boring way to live.

Yeah or yeah. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble that way. And I would never want to go through life with that kind of attitude because there's nothing more to learn, right, You're not growing, You're kind of just stunted and you're fruzen there. And to me, that's a really boring way to live.

Well, I think also, Doc, you know a lot of people to your point of living kind of on autopilot or groundhog day. And it's not an offense because I think a lot of people realize that they are to an extent living unconsciously in that they tend to do the thing today that they did yesterday in the day before and week before, the thing that didn't really work the last hundred times. They are still doing it. You know. And my listeners will be sick of me saying this, but I don't think I've said it to you. It's like one of the one of the common conversations I have with people when I'm sitting down one on one is you know, they will say to me something like, you know where they are in their life, their job, their journey, their health, their whatever they say oh, this wasn't my plan. You know where they're currently at. This wasn't my plan. And I say, oh, okay, can I see the plan? And they're like what, I go the plan? Can I see it? And they're like, what do you mean? I said? You just said this wasn't my plan. Can I see the plan? And they're like, well, there's no plan. You know, there's no plan plan.

Well, I think also, Doc, you know a lot of people to your point of living kind of on autopilot or groundhog day. And it's not an offense because I think a lot of people realize that they are to an extent living unconsciously in that they tend to do the thing today that they did yesterday in the day before and week before, the thing that didn't really work the last hundred times. They are still doing it. You know. And my listeners will be sick of me saying this, but I don't think I've said it to you. It's like one of the one of the common conversations I have with people when I'm sitting down one on one is you know, they will say to me something like, you know where they are in their life, their job, their journey, their health, their whatever they say oh, this wasn't my plan. You know where they're currently at. This wasn't my plan. And I say, oh, okay, can I see the plan? And they're like what, I go the plan? Can I see it? And they're like, what do you mean? I said? You just said this wasn't my plan. Can I see the plan? And they're like, well, there's no plan. You know, there's no plan plan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's yeah, I get what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's yeah, I get what you're saying.

Yeah, you know, it's like and we all do. I mean, there's been periods of my time where periods of my time, periods of my life where I was doing things that, especially with my body and my food because I had food addictions and I had all kinds of bullshit emotional and psychological and sociological and behavioral stuff going on where I was for extended periods of time doing things that didn't work. And the reason that I did it, among others was one of the reasons was, you know, because it gave me instant gratification, you know, so overcoming that as well, that need to get pleasure right now, and because I'll fix it soon, but not today, I'll fix it soon. I'll start Monday I'll start January one, but not today.

Yeah, you know, it's like and we all do. I mean, there's been periods of my time where periods of my time, periods of my life where I was doing things that, especially with my body and my food because I had food addictions and I had all kinds of bullshit emotional and psychological and sociological and behavioral stuff going on where I was for extended periods of time doing things that didn't work. And the reason that I did it, among others was one of the reasons was, you know, because it gave me instant gratification, you know, so overcoming that as well, that need to get pleasure right now, and because I'll fix it soon, but not today, I'll fix it soon. I'll start Monday I'll start January one, but not today.

Yeah, which is really hard because that's a little bit against the grain of human nature when we evolved long ago. And I know I see this a lot, so I hope your regular listeners are not getting tired of me ramble on about how important it is to evaluate our current behavior in the context of what our ancestors long ago did. Because we lived as hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years, so those behavioral patterns are deeply ingrained into our brain and dictate a lot of our actions at a subconscious level. So we very often need to step back and analyze our behavior and why we're doing it that way. And when you think about hunter gatherer lifestyles and you can you can read lots of books. It's fascinating literature, but you really gain a lot of insights into maybe some of the irrational things that human beings do, or some of these automatic habits that you're talking about that obviously aren't good for us, and yet we continue to do them time and time again. These are patterns that if you extrapolate back to our ancient past, you can see those sorts of behaviors and since they were with us for about one hundred thousand years. And you know, we've only civilization has been around as we know it only for about ten thousand years, which is the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We really haven't come to grips with the modern world and how we're evolutionarily designed.

Yeah, which is really hard because that's a little bit against the grain of human nature when we evolved long ago. And I know I see this a lot, so I hope your regular listeners are not getting tired of me ramble on about how important it is to evaluate our current behavior in the context of what our ancestors long ago did. Because we lived as hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years, so those behavioral patterns are deeply ingrained into our brain and dictate a lot of our actions at a subconscious level. So we very often need to step back and analyze our behavior and why we're doing it that way. And when you think about hunter gatherer lifestyles and you can you can read lots of books. It's fascinating literature, but you really gain a lot of insights into maybe some of the irrational things that human beings do, or some of these automatic habits that you're talking about that obviously aren't good for us, and yet we continue to do them time and time again. These are patterns that if you extrapolate back to our ancient past, you can see those sorts of behaviors and since they were with us for about one hundred thousand years. And you know, we've only civilization has been around as we know it only for about ten thousand years, which is the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We really haven't come to grips with the modern world and how we're evolutionarily designed.

Yeah, one hundred percent. I wanted to. Okay, so by the way, everyone, we haven't done this. We're going to get to it. I want the second half of the show to be all about doctor Bale's books. So it's called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and the curious forces that make us who we are. I'm listening to it at the moment in between my other stuff. But I'm not just saying this because you're here. I was actually talking to somebody this morning. They said, what are you doing, and I said, I've got our bunch of stuff on you being one of the things I add on in Inverted Commas, and I said, you've got to read or listen to his book. It's it's it is really brilliant, and it is what I love about your book. There's such good use of humor and storytelling, and anyone, anyone can understand it, like it's relevant for everyone. Like there's really nobody that it's not relevant for because we've all got we've all got Jens germs and bloody, we all have bodies, and we've all got to navigate and negotiate health and wellness and life and performance. So I prefer listening, but either buy a hard copy or have a listen everyone. But I want to come to that in a moment because I've got a few questions out of the book, or a few topics out of the book I want to cover with you. But I wanted to know your thoughts on And this is probably not something you talk about a lot or think about a lot, but it intersects with my world and your world. There's a bit of a bro science term that which is biological age. It is used legitimately in science, but also you know, like there are some really crappy protocols that people do are a bioage test in twelve minutes, doc, and then all of a sudden they go, oh, well, I'm forty eight, but my biological age is thirty two because they've done I don't know, a questionnaire, and you know, some some really basic not very scientifically valid test from one of a better term, But what are your thoughts around one? You know?

Yeah, one hundred percent. I wanted to. Okay, so by the way, everyone, we haven't done this. We're going to get to it. I want the second half of the show to be all about doctor Bale's books. So it's called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and the curious forces that make us who we are. I'm listening to it at the moment in between my other stuff. But I'm not just saying this because you're here. I was actually talking to somebody this morning. They said, what are you doing, and I said, I've got our bunch of stuff on you being one of the things I add on in Inverted Commas, and I said, you've got to read or listen to his book. It's it's it is really brilliant, and it is what I love about your book. There's such good use of humor and storytelling, and anyone, anyone can understand it, like it's relevant for everyone. Like there's really nobody that it's not relevant for because we've all got we've all got Jens germs and bloody, we all have bodies, and we've all got to navigate and negotiate health and wellness and life and performance. So I prefer listening, but either buy a hard copy or have a listen everyone. But I want to come to that in a moment because I've got a few questions out of the book, or a few topics out of the book I want to cover with you. But I wanted to know your thoughts on And this is probably not something you talk about a lot or think about a lot, but it intersects with my world and your world. There's a bit of a bro science term that which is biological age. It is used legitimately in science, but also you know, like there are some really crappy protocols that people do are a bioage test in twelve minutes, doc, and then all of a sudden they go, oh, well, I'm forty eight, but my biological age is thirty two because they've done I don't know, a questionnaire, and you know, some some really basic not very scientifically valid test from one of a better term, But what are your thoughts around one? You know?

So?

So?

And if anyone's thinking, what do I mean some chronological age? Obviously I'm sixty one. Biological age, in I guess Layman's terms, is you know how my body works in inverted commas, from a functional point of view, from a health point of view, from a bunch, but basically how well my body works. And I guess biologically, physiologically and functionally how my body is going for my age. It's probably not a great explanation, but it's in the ballpark. But what are your thoughts around biological college versus chronological age? Is it term that you use or not?

And if anyone's thinking, what do I mean some chronological age? Obviously I'm sixty one. Biological age, in I guess Layman's terms, is you know how my body works in inverted commas, from a functional point of view, from a health point of view, from a bunch, but basically how well my body works. And I guess biologically, physiologically and functionally how my body is going for my age. It's probably not a great explanation, but it's in the ballpark. But what are your thoughts around biological college versus chronological age? Is it term that you use or not?

It's not a term that I use or come across very often, But I get the gist of what the idea is about. You know, you have your however many laps you went around the sun versus what sort of health attributes you exhibit? And I think, you know, being a scientist about this sort of thing, I'm very skeptical about these sorts of claims because they don't seem to be backed up by evidence of any kind. They just seem to be someone's idea. It reminds me of the whole dog years. I mean, you can say, oh, my dog's eight, but in human years, that's like one hundred and ten, So my dog's really old. No, your dog's eight, and your dog is eight years old and it acts like an eight year old dog. You know, you don't need to translate it into human years to understand better what the dog is going to be like. So when someone has a chronological chronological age of let's just say fifty, nice round number, and they want to say that I have a biological age of thirty two, what does that mean exactly? And I don't think you can paint it with such a broad brush because there may be some features of you that feel younger okay, yes, but there's other features that you can't turn the clock back on, you know. So I would really like to scrutinize the algorithms or the equations that they use to deduce what a biological age is and what in fact that what the definition of that truly is, because I'll be honest with you, Craig on you know, on some days I feel like my chronological age is far less than my biological age. Yeah, but then I have other days where it's flip flop. So I think it's a little transient if you will. It's it's not like a stable concept. Yeah, well, depends on how you're feeling, what you eat, you know what, what illness you might have. Who knows one hundred percent.

It's not a term that I use or come across very often, But I get the gist of what the idea is about. You know, you have your however many laps you went around the sun versus what sort of health attributes you exhibit? And I think, you know, being a scientist about this sort of thing, I'm very skeptical about these sorts of claims because they don't seem to be backed up by evidence of any kind. They just seem to be someone's idea. It reminds me of the whole dog years. I mean, you can say, oh, my dog's eight, but in human years, that's like one hundred and ten, So my dog's really old. No, your dog's eight, and your dog is eight years old and it acts like an eight year old dog. You know, you don't need to translate it into human years to understand better what the dog is going to be like. So when someone has a chronological chronological age of let's just say fifty, nice round number, and they want to say that I have a biological age of thirty two, what does that mean exactly? And I don't think you can paint it with such a broad brush because there may be some features of you that feel younger okay, yes, but there's other features that you can't turn the clock back on, you know. So I would really like to scrutinize the algorithms or the equations that they use to deduce what a biological age is and what in fact that what the definition of that truly is, because I'll be honest with you, Craig on you know, on some days I feel like my chronological age is far less than my biological age. Yeah, but then I have other days where it's flip flop. So I think it's a little transient if you will. It's it's not like a stable concept. Yeah, well, depends on how you're feeling, what you eat, you know what, what illness you might have. Who knows one hundred percent.

I feel like, sorry about my blurred head. I don't know what's going on there. I feel yeah, like my shoulders feel like they're about one hundred and ten years old.

I feel like, sorry about my blurred head. I don't know what's going on there. I feel yeah, like my shoulders feel like they're about one hundred and ten years old.

Both my rotag in dog ears they are only five, So.

Both my rotag in dog ears they are only five, So.

That's very funny. Yeah, both my rotator cuffs should be in an old person's home. But you know, like my actual muscle strength is probably atypical for my age. But yeah, you're right, there are some things that depending on you know, how it's measured and all of that. But I've just got it here in front of me. And again, this is this is not great science. Estimating biological aid. It involves measuring a variety of biomarkers and factors that reflect the body's physiological condition, which may differ from chronological age. The key variables and factors commonly used to estimate bioage so epigenetic markers, DNA methylation, telemeal length, inflammatory markers, c reactive protein inter lukens, metabolic health, glucose metabolism, cholesterol levels. But even with all this mitochondrial function, physical and functional movements, cardiovascular health, blood pressure, arterial stiffness, body composition, mass, fat hormone levels, bah bah. But even with that, I don't know who developed that and whether or not, you know, those protocols have been validated in any shape or form. But yeah, but it I think the fact remains that sometimes, Yeah, our level of function is older or younger in inverted commas than our laps around the sun.

That's very funny. Yeah, both my rotator cuffs should be in an old person's home. But you know, like my actual muscle strength is probably atypical for my age. But yeah, you're right, there are some things that depending on you know, how it's measured and all of that. But I've just got it here in front of me. And again, this is this is not great science. Estimating biological aid. It involves measuring a variety of biomarkers and factors that reflect the body's physiological condition, which may differ from chronological age. The key variables and factors commonly used to estimate bioage so epigenetic markers, DNA methylation, telemeal length, inflammatory markers, c reactive protein inter lukens, metabolic health, glucose metabolism, cholesterol levels. But even with all this mitochondrial function, physical and functional movements, cardiovascular health, blood pressure, arterial stiffness, body composition, mass, fat hormone levels, bah bah. But even with that, I don't know who developed that and whether or not, you know, those protocols have been validated in any shape or form. But yeah, but it I think the fact remains that sometimes, Yeah, our level of function is older or younger in inverted commas than our laps around the sun.

Yeah. Well, I know my biological age goes down with a cup of coffee, so you know who knows coffee?

Yeah. Well, I know my biological age goes down with a cup of coffee, so you know who knows coffee?

Take me mind changes over the day. I'm about forty when I get up. Yeah, I'm about ninety two by eleven o'clock.

Take me mind changes over the day. I'm about forty when I get up. Yeah, I'm about ninety two by eleven o'clock.

There you go. Just before we leave this topic for the for the benefit of the listeners, there may be something too, like individual markers that you spoke about, like telomere length. Telomere integrity is definitely correlated with cellular aging. But how all these biomarkers interact with one another. We're just in the infancy of understanding all of those complexities. Okay, So I would hate for someone to hear that they have a biomarker that makes them, you know, that is supposed to be unhealthy or only seen in elderly people. Yeah, you don't want to mislead them with that sort of information. And by the same token, you don't want to mislead someone who genuine little like might need to take a statin or something. But hey, your chronal, your biological age is much younger, and then they might not have they might avoid a life saving medicine you know that older people take. So I would I would be very wary about those sorts of comparisons because we simply don't know enough about how the body works holistically. When when you talk about these sorts of biomarkers, now that said, there might be truth to one or two of them.

There you go. Just before we leave this topic for the for the benefit of the listeners, there may be something too, like individual markers that you spoke about, like telomere length. Telomere integrity is definitely correlated with cellular aging. But how all these biomarkers interact with one another. We're just in the infancy of understanding all of those complexities. Okay, So I would hate for someone to hear that they have a biomarker that makes them, you know, that is supposed to be unhealthy or only seen in elderly people. Yeah, you don't want to mislead them with that sort of information. And by the same token, you don't want to mislead someone who genuine little like might need to take a statin or something. But hey, your chronal, your biological age is much younger, and then they might not have they might avoid a life saving medicine you know that older people take. So I would I would be very wary about those sorts of comparisons because we simply don't know enough about how the body works holistically. When when you talk about these sorts of biomarkers, now that said, there might be truth to one or two of them.

Yeah, yeah, and I think I think one of the dangers right now, and I'm probably guilty of this as well a little bit, is that a lot of people get their information from Instagram or Facebook or or YouTube or the Bloody Youth Project or do you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, and I think I think one of the dangers right now, and I'm probably guilty of this as well a little bit, is that a lot of people get their information from Instagram or Facebook or or YouTube or the Bloody Youth Project or do you know what I mean.

It's like, and there's irresponsible podcasters.

It's like, and there's irresponsible podcasters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I mean it is true and you need to and all. So then we get people who have a little bit of knowledge about an area but not much knowledge like zero knowledge and other other related and important areas, you know. So it's like some people might know a lot whatever, for example, about nutrition, but nothing about sleep or training or physiological adaptation in other ways, or stress or anxiety or the impact of environment on the body or you know, and so all of their their solution is all food based, you know, which again is looking through a particular prism you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I mean it is true and you need to and all. So then we get people who have a little bit of knowledge about an area but not much knowledge like zero knowledge and other other related and important areas, you know. So it's like some people might know a lot whatever, for example, about nutrition, but nothing about sleep or training or physiological adaptation in other ways, or stress or anxiety or the impact of environment on the body or you know, and so all of their their solution is all food based, you know, which again is looking through a particular prism you.

Know, yeah, buyer beware, you know. And it's getting tough nowadays to discern in some cases who really knows their stuff and who doesn't. So, you know, it helps if people are being honest, but when people are chasing lakes and follows and advertiser money, there's that integrity kind of goes down the dream. Sometimes I always fall back on looking for the experts who actually know their field very well. So like if you and I started launching into a talk on let's say, you know, black holes or something like that, I am not qualified to talk about that. You know. I can throw a whole bunch of garbage and jargon around that reflects my superficial knowledge of these things, but that's not something I'm qualified to talk about it. We can still have a conversation, but people would have to know, Hey, he knows about epigenetics and genes and stuff, but he knows about as much as black holes as you know that dog he was talking about earlier.

Know, yeah, buyer beware, you know. And it's getting tough nowadays to discern in some cases who really knows their stuff and who doesn't. So, you know, it helps if people are being honest, but when people are chasing lakes and follows and advertiser money, there's that integrity kind of goes down the dream. Sometimes I always fall back on looking for the experts who actually know their field very well. So like if you and I started launching into a talk on let's say, you know, black holes or something like that, I am not qualified to talk about that. You know. I can throw a whole bunch of garbage and jargon around that reflects my superficial knowledge of these things, but that's not something I'm qualified to talk about it. We can still have a conversation, but people would have to know, Hey, he knows about epigenetics and genes and stuff, but he knows about as much as black holes as you know that dog he was talking about earlier.

So well, if we start talking about teleportation, then my ears are going to prick up, because that would be very good.

So well, if we start talking about teleportation, then my ears are going to prick up, because that would be very good.

That would be cool.

That would be cool.

Let's lean in a little bit to your book. So the tenth time, everyone, please meet me germs and the curious forces that makes who we are, Doctor Bill Sullivan. So there's a bunch of themes in the book and a bunch of kind of subject matter that you that you cover before I open the door and go tell us about this. Is there are there particular thing like which do you want to do it this way where I just riff and then you tell us about that, Or are there three or four or five key things out of the book that you would just rather that you know are broadly relevant you want to share with us. I don't mind which way we go.

Let's lean in a little bit to your book. So the tenth time, everyone, please meet me germs and the curious forces that makes who we are, Doctor Bill Sullivan. So there's a bunch of themes in the book and a bunch of kind of subject matter that you that you cover before I open the door and go tell us about this. Is there are there particular thing like which do you want to do it this way where I just riff and then you tell us about that, Or are there three or four or five key things out of the book that you would just rather that you know are broadly relevant you want to share with us. I don't mind which way we go.

Ad or mind either. Just to maybe explain a little bit to the audience that the mean theme of the book It's kind of like an updated user manual for the human body, not just in a physical way, but in a mental way as well. Because what got me interested in it stems from the work we do in my research lab, you know, where we study a parasite that infects a billion and over a billion people and, according to some studies, can affect their behaviors. So this, you know, put that light bulb over my head. What other things might be in our body that control us or influence us that we don't know about, you know, because we need to educate ourselves about how these forces work individually and collectively, so that we can understand who we are, why we do the things we do, and just as importantly, why don't others act the same way we do. Why do they have different beliefs, you know, different habits and so on. So that got me to thinking about genes. That's a pretty obvious hidden feature. You know, most people don't know what genes they have, and most people don't realize that genes go far beyond our physical makeup. They govern a lot of things about our personality and behavior and can be quite strong influencers. It's not to say we're genetically predetermined by any means. Because the second force I talk about as epigenetics, which is how your environment can like turn volume knobs of those genes up and down. So there's certainly room within you your genetic limitations if you will, to change things, so the environment can be critically important. And then I talk about microbes like the one I mentioned earlier, the parasite and the brain that might affect activity. Well, lo and behold, that's just a tip of the iceberg. You know, there's three pounds of bacteria, fungi and other microbes in our gut that increasingly evidence shows has a profound effect on our physical and mental health. And these studies are just mind blowing and really create an entire new arena for potential medical intervention. And of course there's evolutionary ghosts. You mentioned this a little bit at the beginning of the podcast, Craig, where a lot of our behavior is embedded with in evolutionary psychology. So a lot of the things we do, a lot of the things we worry about, a lot of the ways we eat, what sort of foods we're attracted to, what sort of bodies we're attracted to, all have a deep evolutionary past, and it is remarkably insightful to keep that in mind when you're trying to understand human behavior. So the book tries to tie all that together, these multiple forces operating under the hood, because if we understand them, then we can understand ourselves and one another in a more productive fashion.

Ad or mind either. Just to maybe explain a little bit to the audience that the mean theme of the book It's kind of like an updated user manual for the human body, not just in a physical way, but in a mental way as well. Because what got me interested in it stems from the work we do in my research lab, you know, where we study a parasite that infects a billion and over a billion people and, according to some studies, can affect their behaviors. So this, you know, put that light bulb over my head. What other things might be in our body that control us or influence us that we don't know about, you know, because we need to educate ourselves about how these forces work individually and collectively, so that we can understand who we are, why we do the things we do, and just as importantly, why don't others act the same way we do. Why do they have different beliefs, you know, different habits and so on. So that got me to thinking about genes. That's a pretty obvious hidden feature. You know, most people don't know what genes they have, and most people don't realize that genes go far beyond our physical makeup. They govern a lot of things about our personality and behavior and can be quite strong influencers. It's not to say we're genetically predetermined by any means. Because the second force I talk about as epigenetics, which is how your environment can like turn volume knobs of those genes up and down. So there's certainly room within you your genetic limitations if you will, to change things, so the environment can be critically important. And then I talk about microbes like the one I mentioned earlier, the parasite and the brain that might affect activity. Well, lo and behold, that's just a tip of the iceberg. You know, there's three pounds of bacteria, fungi and other microbes in our gut that increasingly evidence shows has a profound effect on our physical and mental health. And these studies are just mind blowing and really create an entire new arena for potential medical intervention. And of course there's evolutionary ghosts. You mentioned this a little bit at the beginning of the podcast, Craig, where a lot of our behavior is embedded with in evolutionary psychology. So a lot of the things we do, a lot of the things we worry about, a lot of the ways we eat, what sort of foods we're attracted to, what sort of bodies we're attracted to, all have a deep evolutionary past, and it is remarkably insightful to keep that in mind when you're trying to understand human behavior. So the book tries to tie all that together, these multiple forces operating under the hood, because if we understand them, then we can understand ourselves and one another in a more productive fashion.

So, given the influence and the impact about biology ad genetics, do you think we have as much control over our choices and behaviors as we think we do.

So, given the influence and the impact about biology ad genetics, do you think we have as much control over our choices and behaviors as we think we do.

I was really hoping that was the case when I began the research for this book, because I liked to think that there's still a great deal of agency associated with being human. And this has been debated for a very long time, and there's, you know, debates that are still raging today. Some people are we don't have any free will whatsoever. Everything is predetermined. We live in a deterministic universe, so you know, how can we possibly have free will? And then there's others that says we've evolved to a point with such a sophisticated brain and ability to make decisions, weigh pros and cons and all that, that clearly there is some level of free will. And there's a whole bunch of people in the middle, and I think I don't fall in the middle of that debate. I skew towards less and less free will, but I would still like to leave that door open. It just feels natural to me. But I know that that is not evidence. That is not a good, you know, experimental way to prove a case for free will. Well, just because you feel like you have it. Our brain makes us feel many things it likes to trick us, so that could very well be another one of the brain's tricks. But like I said as I was researching this book, when you think about, you know, you don't control what genes you were born with. You don't control your prenatal environment, which alters a lot of the expression of those genes. You don't control the environment you had as a young child, which configures the settings on these genes, and a lot of data says that that can't change, you know, or at least can't change much after it's been pre set. And then you think about the evolutionary constraints that were under So at the end of the day, long winded answer to your question, but it's a really insightful philosophical question that I think people should talk about more. Is that I think the circle of free will has shrunk dramatically from this from when I went into the research on this book to when I finished writing it. But I still feel like I could be a bird in the cage, you know, and there's still a little room to walk around and sim songs and be happy. So that's that's what gets me through the day.

I was really hoping that was the case when I began the research for this book, because I liked to think that there's still a great deal of agency associated with being human. And this has been debated for a very long time, and there's, you know, debates that are still raging today. Some people are we don't have any free will whatsoever. Everything is predetermined. We live in a deterministic universe, so you know, how can we possibly have free will? And then there's others that says we've evolved to a point with such a sophisticated brain and ability to make decisions, weigh pros and cons and all that, that clearly there is some level of free will. And there's a whole bunch of people in the middle, and I think I don't fall in the middle of that debate. I skew towards less and less free will, but I would still like to leave that door open. It just feels natural to me. But I know that that is not evidence. That is not a good, you know, experimental way to prove a case for free will. Well, just because you feel like you have it. Our brain makes us feel many things it likes to trick us, so that could very well be another one of the brain's tricks. But like I said as I was researching this book, when you think about, you know, you don't control what genes you were born with. You don't control your prenatal environment, which alters a lot of the expression of those genes. You don't control the environment you had as a young child, which configures the settings on these genes, and a lot of data says that that can't change, you know, or at least can't change much after it's been pre set. And then you think about the evolutionary constraints that were under So at the end of the day, long winded answer to your question, but it's a really insightful philosophical question that I think people should talk about more. Is that I think the circle of free will has shrunk dramatically from this from when I went into the research on this book to when I finished writing it. But I still feel like I could be a bird in the cage, you know, and there's still a little room to walk around and sim songs and be happy. So that's that's what gets me through the day.

And also, yeah, well one that's very insightful, too mildly terrifying to think that I don't have any come just I'm just at the whim of my genetics.

And also, yeah, well one that's very insightful, too mildly terrifying to think that I don't have any come just I'm just at the whim of my genetics.

You are a bird in the cage.

You are a bird in the cage.

Yeah, But I think also, you know, one of the one of the things too, is like what is what is comfortable for us? You know? It's like you said, you'd like to think that or I feel like and that's the thing, isn't It's like what I want to be true might not be true, and it might not suit my story and it might not suit my you know, emotional kind of whatever, you know, But that's that's the thing. Could you give us an example, I think you said something like obviously talking about epigenetics, the way that our our correct me if I've fuck anything up, because I'm not you, but we can turn up or down the volume on certain genes depending on environment might have that. Could you give a practical example of how something might be affected by environment, like a real world Like when you say that, I'm like, I'm trying to think, what does that look like in the real world for one of our listeners.

Yeah, But I think also, you know, one of the one of the things too, is like what is what is comfortable for us? You know? It's like you said, you'd like to think that or I feel like and that's the thing, isn't It's like what I want to be true might not be true, and it might not suit my story and it might not suit my you know, emotional kind of whatever, you know, But that's that's the thing. Could you give us an example, I think you said something like obviously talking about epigenetics, the way that our our correct me if I've fuck anything up, because I'm not you, but we can turn up or down the volume on certain genes depending on environment might have that. Could you give a practical example of how something might be affected by environment, like a real world Like when you say that, I'm like, I'm trying to think, what does that look like in the real world for one of our listeners.

Oh? Sure, So there there's many many examples out there. In the book goes into quite a few some of the more tangible examples that I think, you know, based on the talks they've given that people hook up to or that you know you're just exercise can really alter genus expression in the muscle groups and some of the organs that are benefiting from exercise. So, for example, there was a nicely controlled study I forget what country this was done in, but people were asked the subjects of this study were asked to exercise with one leg but the other leg stayed inactive, and they did this for I don't know, three or four weeks, and then at the end of the study they took some blood samples and looked at epigenetic patterns on the genes, which is basically a readout of which genes expression got altered. So in the leg that received exercise, there was a lot of epigenetic changes turning on genes that correspond with better health, better metabolism, and the other leg this didn't happen. So you can easily change your genes expression just by doing some very basic things. Another really remarkable study, and this is this is one that really blows my mind, is that meditators like monks you were talking about, master meditators, people who are very good and well practiced in the art of meditation, when they study their epigenetic patterns, they have changes at genes that are linked to stress and anxiety, and they're much they're dialed way back down. And then they took that as like a justification to see what would happen in your average Joe if they started to meditate, and in a very short time, I think it was like two or four weeks, just like a half hour of meditation a day, this guided meditation that they listen to, they started seeing the same epigenetic changes at their genes that are die piling down stress and anxiety. It's pretty remarkable. And in addition to that, they see epigenetic changes at physical health points too, So like genes that would be associated with lower blood pressure, for example. And it just blows my mind that there's something we can do mentally, such as meditation, that can actually alter the epigenetic patterns on our genes, which at the end of the day changes gene expression. So this gives us great hope that there can be very simple things that we can do in our lives. A better diet, better exercise, and stress reduction techniques like guided meditation or maybe like nature walks, things like that can make very quick alterations in our genes that could explain the health benefits that most people receive if they start engaging in these healthy activities.

Oh? Sure, So there there's many many examples out there. In the book goes into quite a few some of the more tangible examples that I think, you know, based on the talks they've given that people hook up to or that you know you're just exercise can really alter genus expression in the muscle groups and some of the organs that are benefiting from exercise. So, for example, there was a nicely controlled study I forget what country this was done in, but people were asked the subjects of this study were asked to exercise with one leg but the other leg stayed inactive, and they did this for I don't know, three or four weeks, and then at the end of the study they took some blood samples and looked at epigenetic patterns on the genes, which is basically a readout of which genes expression got altered. So in the leg that received exercise, there was a lot of epigenetic changes turning on genes that correspond with better health, better metabolism, and the other leg this didn't happen. So you can easily change your genes expression just by doing some very basic things. Another really remarkable study, and this is this is one that really blows my mind, is that meditators like monks you were talking about, master meditators, people who are very good and well practiced in the art of meditation, when they study their epigenetic patterns, they have changes at genes that are linked to stress and anxiety, and they're much they're dialed way back down. And then they took that as like a justification to see what would happen in your average Joe if they started to meditate, and in a very short time, I think it was like two or four weeks, just like a half hour of meditation a day, this guided meditation that they listen to, they started seeing the same epigenetic changes at their genes that are die piling down stress and anxiety. It's pretty remarkable. And in addition to that, they see epigenetic changes at physical health points too, So like genes that would be associated with lower blood pressure, for example. And it just blows my mind that there's something we can do mentally, such as meditation, that can actually alter the epigenetic patterns on our genes, which at the end of the day changes gene expression. So this gives us great hope that there can be very simple things that we can do in our lives. A better diet, better exercise, and stress reduction techniques like guided meditation or maybe like nature walks, things like that can make very quick alterations in our genes that could explain the health benefits that most people receive if they start engaging in these healthy activities.

Yeah. One of the probably the terrible classifications that happens in exercise science and some other sciences is body type. And there are a bunch of different ones in different fields. But so endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph you've heard of that, I guess have you heard of that again? Endomorph mesomorph, ecdomorph have you heard of that?

Yeah. One of the probably the terrible classifications that happens in exercise science and some other sciences is body type. And there are a bunch of different ones in different fields. But so endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph you've heard of that, I guess have you heard of that again? Endomorph mesomorph, ecdomorph have you heard of that?

I'm not sure?

I'm not sure?

Yeah, so I'll explain it for me. Yeah. Yeah, So an endomorph is a person. Now this is talk about a crap qualification or a crap classification, but this is what I got taught in my first degree excise science. Right, So people fall into one of three categories, generally allegedly your honor, that is, they are an ectomorph. And they call so people who struggle to gain fat and muscle a mesomorph. Somebody who's naturally more muscular, stocky, robust, athletic, powerful, you know, like a linebacker or something, or offensive lineman or you know, or a or a field athlete, shot put a thrower, anyone like that. And an endomorph is somebody who is predisposed to gain fat more easily and all of that. But the funny thing is that it's like in the real world, it doesn't work like that. Like almost nobody sits squarely in any of those categories. And if you hadn't looked at me at fourteen years of age, you would have said, oh, he is one hundred and two percent endomorph. And then if you looked at me now you would say, well, he's mesomorph, right, is one hundred percent mesomorph. But it's really just because of how I eat and how I live and how I move my body. And yeah, so it's it's it's funny how many things get passed off as science that we grew I grew up in that model anyway, where we would talk to clients and athletes all the time about the mesomorphic or enomorphic or ectomorphic genetic tendencies or predisposition, you know, but it's kind of bullshit.

Yeah, so I'll explain it for me. Yeah. Yeah, So an endomorph is a person. Now this is talk about a crap qualification or a crap classification, but this is what I got taught in my first degree excise science. Right, So people fall into one of three categories, generally allegedly your honor, that is, they are an ectomorph. And they call so people who struggle to gain fat and muscle a mesomorph. Somebody who's naturally more muscular, stocky, robust, athletic, powerful, you know, like a linebacker or something, or offensive lineman or you know, or a or a field athlete, shot put a thrower, anyone like that. And an endomorph is somebody who is predisposed to gain fat more easily and all of that. But the funny thing is that it's like in the real world, it doesn't work like that. Like almost nobody sits squarely in any of those categories. And if you hadn't looked at me at fourteen years of age, you would have said, oh, he is one hundred and two percent endomorph. And then if you looked at me now you would say, well, he's mesomorph, right, is one hundred percent mesomorph. But it's really just because of how I eat and how I live and how I move my body. And yeah, so it's it's it's funny how many things get passed off as science that we grew I grew up in that model anyway, where we would talk to clients and athletes all the time about the mesomorphic or enomorphic or ectomorphic genetic tendencies or predisposition, you know, but it's kind of bullshit.

Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, Like for those sorts of traits, there's a lot of flexibility. There are very few traits that are like, you know, ninety to one hundred percent predictives, most of which are associated with disease states.

Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, Like for those sorts of traits, there's a lot of flexibility. There are very few traits that are like, you know, ninety to one hundred percent predictives, most of which are associated with disease states.

But when you're.

But when you're.

Talking about complex physical attributes and even more complicated behaviors, there's hundreds of genes, maybe thousands of genes that partake in that particular trait. So I think there's a lot of flexibility. So yeah, I get what you're saying. And it's all a matter of your environment too, as to what may be prompted those changes, you know, from struggling with weight and food to achieving a better lifestyle. What some people are going to have an easier time at that than others.

Talking about complex physical attributes and even more complicated behaviors, there's hundreds of genes, maybe thousands of genes that partake in that particular trait. So I think there's a lot of flexibility. So yeah, I get what you're saying. And it's all a matter of your environment too, as to what may be prompted those changes, you know, from struggling with weight and food to achieving a better lifestyle. What some people are going to have an easier time at that than others.

What does your research doc tell us about the role of genetics in personality emotions? And you know, even the way that even now I don't know for what this is not science here, but for one of better term our worldview, the way that we think, the way that we process the world around us. How much of that? And I know it's I know there's no definitive number, but tell us about that a little bit. You know, like if Craig Harper the same same body, same genetics. If I was raised next door to you in the States and mum and dad were Mormons, and you know, you know, I grew up in a different place, I was the same DNA.

What does your research doc tell us about the role of genetics in personality emotions? And you know, even the way that even now I don't know for what this is not science here, but for one of better term our worldview, the way that we think, the way that we process the world around us. How much of that? And I know it's I know there's no definitive number, but tell us about that a little bit. You know, like if Craig Harper the same same body, same genetics. If I was raised next door to you in the States and mum and dad were Mormons, and you know, you know, I grew up in a different place, I was the same DNA.

But I had fifteen kids by now, yeah.

But I had fifteen kids by now, yeah.

I'd have fifteen kids and four station wagons. But the shout out to my Mormon listeners, both of you, Yeah, what tell us about that?

I'd have fifteen kids and four station wagons. But the shout out to my Mormon listeners, both of you, Yeah, what tell us about that?

Right? So that's a perfect example against this genetic determinism concept where just because you have a certain blueprint, if you will in your DNA, how that blueprint unfolds is going to depend a great deal on the environment you're in. And that's the reason for that is epigenetics, because studies have been done on identical twins that have the same exact genome, you know, their clones. But if you set up the example where one of the twins moves away and does something very different or is in a very different environment, they're going to exhibit differences. And when scientists look at the epigenetic patterns on their genomes, despite the fact that all the genes are the same, that epigenetic patterns are not because because they were dictated by the different environments that they were in. And that's what brings about the differences in their appearance and behavior. Many people don't realize that identical twins very often as they age do have subtle differences in their appearance and sometimes dramatic differences in their behavior.

Right? So that's a perfect example against this genetic determinism concept where just because you have a certain blueprint, if you will in your DNA, how that blueprint unfolds is going to depend a great deal on the environment you're in. And that's the reason for that is epigenetics, because studies have been done on identical twins that have the same exact genome, you know, their clones. But if you set up the example where one of the twins moves away and does something very different or is in a very different environment, they're going to exhibit differences. And when scientists look at the epigenetic patterns on their genomes, despite the fact that all the genes are the same, that epigenetic patterns are not because because they were dictated by the different environments that they were in. And that's what brings about the differences in their appearance and behavior. Many people don't realize that identical twins very often as they age do have subtle differences in their appearance and sometimes dramatic differences in their behavior.

Right, yeah, one hundred percent, and you can you.

Right, yeah, one hundred percent, and you can you.

Can take I think I might have said this example on your podcast before, but if if let's say I'm genetically predetermined to be six feet tall, yeah, you stick me in a malnourished environment, that's never going to happen. So your environment is really a critical variable in how your genetic program unfolds, how it manifests itself.

Can take I think I might have said this example on your podcast before, but if if let's say I'm genetically predetermined to be six feet tall, yeah, you stick me in a malnourished environment, that's never going to happen. So your environment is really a critical variable in how your genetic program unfolds, how it manifests itself.

Yeah. So can you can you talk about how some of the biological traits we've inherited through evolution, ah maladaptive in modern society.

Yeah. So can you can you talk about how some of the biological traits we've inherited through evolution, ah maladaptive in modern society.

Oh yeah, Like the classic example is diet. So back when we were hunter gatherers, there was a really strong selective pressure to go after high calorie foods because they were extremely rare back then. So we're talking about sugars and fats. Why do they taste so to us? It's because we are evolutionarily designed to seek out sweet flavors and fats for their high colure content. They gave us an abundance of energy and an environment that really didn't have a lot of calories. There was a strong selective pressure to develop a sweet tooth and a taste for fats, high calorie foods. Salts another thing that we have a taste for. Those items are not rare anymore. They're super abundant. It is so easy to get a ton of sugar, fats, and salt in contrast to the lifestyles our ancestors led. So we are biologically tuned to still seek out sugar and fats, but unfortunately we're an environment where they're readily accessible and people can just continue to eat them all day long. That would have been unheard of in the lifestyle that we had for about one hundred thousand years. So that's what scientists call a genetic mismatch. It is a mismatch between our environment of long ago, the way we were evolutionarily, you know, created versus the environment we have today. Sedentary lifestyle is the same way many people struggle with weight because our lifestyle for most people is sitting down and doing things that don't burn a lot of calories. We don't get exercise, we don't move our bodies very much. That wasn't the case, you know, back on the savannah when we were hunting for food and looking for the vegetables and roots to eat, So there was a lot more activity than what we have now. So we've I kind of refer to this as we're victims of our own success. We've created a world where there's abundant calories, there's very little need to exercise, you know, because there's a lot of people that's an unpleasant activity. Yes, but you don't need to do that if you don't want to. So we've created a world that our body is just not well suited to fit. It's like we're a square peg, but the world we made is round.

Oh yeah, Like the classic example is diet. So back when we were hunter gatherers, there was a really strong selective pressure to go after high calorie foods because they were extremely rare back then. So we're talking about sugars and fats. Why do they taste so to us? It's because we are evolutionarily designed to seek out sweet flavors and fats for their high colure content. They gave us an abundance of energy and an environment that really didn't have a lot of calories. There was a strong selective pressure to develop a sweet tooth and a taste for fats, high calorie foods. Salts another thing that we have a taste for. Those items are not rare anymore. They're super abundant. It is so easy to get a ton of sugar, fats, and salt in contrast to the lifestyles our ancestors led. So we are biologically tuned to still seek out sugar and fats, but unfortunately we're an environment where they're readily accessible and people can just continue to eat them all day long. That would have been unheard of in the lifestyle that we had for about one hundred thousand years. So that's what scientists call a genetic mismatch. It is a mismatch between our environment of long ago, the way we were evolutionarily, you know, created versus the environment we have today. Sedentary lifestyle is the same way many people struggle with weight because our lifestyle for most people is sitting down and doing things that don't burn a lot of calories. We don't get exercise, we don't move our bodies very much. That wasn't the case, you know, back on the savannah when we were hunting for food and looking for the vegetables and roots to eat, So there was a lot more activity than what we have now. So we've I kind of refer to this as we're victims of our own success. We've created a world where there's abundant calories, there's very little need to exercise, you know, because there's a lot of people that's an unpleasant activity. Yes, but you don't need to do that if you don't want to. So we've created a world that our body is just not well suited to fit. It's like we're a square peg, but the world we made is round.

Yeah, and it's like that's right. It's like life used to be uncomfortable, like practically uncomfortable for most of our human timeline or evolutionary timeline, because we had to hunt, we had to gather, we had to grow, we had to fight, we had to find water. There was no electricity, there were no fridgides, there was no you know. It's like, and now we most I mean, I'm generalizing that I could be wrong, but I feel like most people's priority on some level is comfort, you know, And like nobody wants discomfort, nobody wants uncertainty, nobody wants the unknown or the unfamiliar. Everyone wants to know what's coming. Everyone wants to you know, well it's a bit warm, turn on the air conditioning, or it's a bit cold, turn on the heat, you know. And I understand all of that. I'm not totally different either, but it's like, it's in this pursuit or comfort and certainty and predictability that we've made ourselves more vulnerable in a bad way, not vulnerable in a good way. And like the very thing that we talk about, especially in corporate land, that I inhabit probably more than you. In corporate land, they're always talking about resilience, but the way that we live creates the opposite of resilience. It creates weakness, it creates dysfunction, it creates a fucking plethora of problems sociological, emotional, psychological, and physiological, because we are so concerned with getting on the couch, you know, the sofa, either literal or metaphoric, and we're always going to do the hard thing soon, but not today. I think we've backed ourselves into a metaphoric corner in some ways.

Yeah, and it's like that's right. It's like life used to be uncomfortable, like practically uncomfortable for most of our human timeline or evolutionary timeline, because we had to hunt, we had to gather, we had to grow, we had to fight, we had to find water. There was no electricity, there were no fridgides, there was no you know. It's like, and now we most I mean, I'm generalizing that I could be wrong, but I feel like most people's priority on some level is comfort, you know, And like nobody wants discomfort, nobody wants uncertainty, nobody wants the unknown or the unfamiliar. Everyone wants to know what's coming. Everyone wants to you know, well it's a bit warm, turn on the air conditioning, or it's a bit cold, turn on the heat, you know. And I understand all of that. I'm not totally different either, but it's like, it's in this pursuit or comfort and certainty and predictability that we've made ourselves more vulnerable in a bad way, not vulnerable in a good way. And like the very thing that we talk about, especially in corporate land, that I inhabit probably more than you. In corporate land, they're always talking about resilience, but the way that we live creates the opposite of resilience. It creates weakness, it creates dysfunction, it creates a fucking plethora of problems sociological, emotional, psychological, and physiological, because we are so concerned with getting on the couch, you know, the sofa, either literal or metaphoric, and we're always going to do the hard thing soon, but not today. I think we've backed ourselves into a metaphoric corner in some ways.

Yeah, it does. And that's one of the things I try to stress in the book too, is I'm trying to open people's eyes to this mismatch between the world we inhabit today and what our bodies and minds are you know, should be doing, you know. And the way to I think better well being is not necessarily to live like our ancestors did. I don't want to deprive anyone, especially myself, of air conditioning or heat this winter. I like it comfort. I'm not trying to talk anybody out of that. But I also like the comfort of not having heart disease, you know, of not having you know, brittle bones. You know. I want to eat well and exercise so that I can keep my telomeres as long as possible. Right, So you have to think about comfort in a different way. And I go back to what you said earlier about instant gratification. This is the concept we need to kind of exercise out of our mind. We need to get instant gratification off the front burner and put it on the back burner. Why because a lot of instant gratification will make you happy in the short term, but will make you miserable in the long term, and that leads to unhappiness and a reduction in the quality of life. So if you can put aside some of the sweets and eat more healthy, if you can get up off the couch and go for a walk or a run, those are going to lead to better physical outcomes obviously, but it will also increase your well being at a at a mental health level as well. And so it's a different kind of comfort, you know, going for going more for sustainable content throughout your entire life versus a whole bunch of instant gratification right now with a bunch of misery ahead.