You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin from News Talks EDB and it is.

You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin from News Talks EDB and it is.

Time for the panel and today I'm joined by a broadcaster and journalist, Wilhelmine shrimp Didn Good morning, Willamine, Good morning, Happy Sunday and to you. And we're joined by resident economists at ope's partner's ed mcnightheh d.

Time for the panel and today I'm joined by a broadcaster and journalist, Wilhelmine shrimp Didn Good morning, Willamine, Good morning, Happy Sunday and to you. And we're joined by resident economists at ope's partner's ed mcnightheh d.

Get A Francisco.

Get A Francisco.

Great to speak to you, Good to have you both with us.

Great to speak to you, Good to have you both with us.

Hey, it was really interesting. We started the show this morning by looking at his study by some health researchers here in Australia and they took a look at twenty five years of data and the impact vaping had on the smoking trends of fourteen to fifteen year olds and what they what they learned was that we thought with the introduction of the e cigarette, smoking would decline fast and it hasn't. And they also learned that young people have on those vapes a lot more they than we thought they would be that the amount of vaping they're doing day to day has increased dramatically. And of course I think we're well, I don't know, I'm keen to hear what you think I think we've completely drop the ball on vaping legislation, and I wonder whether we've relied on vaping too much to stop smoking. But I think it might only really come down to these teams. I think for a lot of other people, for older people, will I mean it actually vaping may have been really useful to get off smoking.

Hey, it was really interesting. We started the show this morning by looking at his study by some health researchers here in Australia and they took a look at twenty five years of data and the impact vaping had on the smoking trends of fourteen to fifteen year olds and what they what they learned was that we thought with the introduction of the e cigarette, smoking would decline fast and it hasn't. And they also learned that young people have on those vapes a lot more they than we thought they would be that the amount of vaping they're doing day to day has increased dramatically. And of course I think we're well, I don't know, I'm keen to hear what you think I think we've completely drop the ball on vaping legislation, and I wonder whether we've relied on vaping too much to stop smoking. But I think it might only really come down to these teams. I think for a lot of other people, for older people, will I mean it actually vaping may have been really useful to get off smoking.

Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting discussion, and obviously the reason why that this was brought in was because it was designed to be the smoking cessation tool. But I agree with you, we haven't just dropped the ball in vaping legislation. I think we've been dropping it since vaping was actually introduced and integrated into society, the regulations, so it completely lacks in the beginning, you know, the fruit flavors, the colorful marketing was allowed, and it was really attractive for children. Then nicketeen levels are incredibly high in comparison to other parts of the world. And then there were shops just popping up what felt like on every corner of every street within a stone's throw of schools. Before there was restrictions came in and they had to be a certain kind of distance between where those shops were and where the schools were it was really easy to pick up, and then the horse bolted and then we tried to put it all back into Pandora's box, but it was too little, too late. And I think a prime example of that was I think it was only about eighteen months ago that we reduced the maximum cap on nicketeen levels from fifty milligrams per milla leader to twenty in single use vapes, and that was bringing us in line with other parts of the world. I could honestly talk for so long about this. I did a deep dive on this a few years ago when I was in my full time journalism days, and as part of that, I spoke to fourteen fifteen sixteen year olds. They'd all vaped, and they did it regularly or they'd tried it, and I even sent a fifteen year old actor and this admittedly was about three years ago. I sent them into a mix of dairries, petrol stations and specialists vape shops, eight retailers in total. Six of them six out of eight actually sold vape pods to her, no questions asked. So it's no wonder that kids are picking it up. And even though as regulations have been brought in. I just feel like the enforcement of them, particularly on those shores and sorry, in those stores, is not district as it should be, and that's why keeps are picking it up.

Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting discussion, and obviously the reason why that this was brought in was because it was designed to be the smoking cessation tool. But I agree with you, we haven't just dropped the ball in vaping legislation. I think we've been dropping it since vaping was actually introduced and integrated into society, the regulations, so it completely lacks in the beginning, you know, the fruit flavors, the colorful marketing was allowed, and it was really attractive for children. Then nicketeen levels are incredibly high in comparison to other parts of the world. And then there were shops just popping up what felt like on every corner of every street within a stone's throw of schools. Before there was restrictions came in and they had to be a certain kind of distance between where those shops were and where the schools were it was really easy to pick up, and then the horse bolted and then we tried to put it all back into Pandora's box, but it was too little, too late. And I think a prime example of that was I think it was only about eighteen months ago that we reduced the maximum cap on nicketeen levels from fifty milligrams per milla leader to twenty in single use vapes, and that was bringing us in line with other parts of the world. I could honestly talk for so long about this. I did a deep dive on this a few years ago when I was in my full time journalism days, and as part of that, I spoke to fourteen fifteen sixteen year olds. They'd all vaped, and they did it regularly or they'd tried it, and I even sent a fifteen year old actor and this admittedly was about three years ago. I sent them into a mix of dairries, petrol stations and specialists vape shops, eight retailers in total. Six of them six out of eight actually sold vape pods to her, no questions asked. So it's no wonder that kids are picking it up. And even though as regulations have been brought in. I just feel like the enforcement of them, particularly on those shores and sorry, in those stores, is not district as it should be, and that's why keeps are picking it up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, Look, I've got teenagers and I know a lot of teenagers, and my goodness that this was out of control from the minute it hit. So it should have we only allowed vaping to exist as a tool to stop smoking. Should have we said you need to be able to you know, your GP should be prescribing this to you.

No, Look, I've got teenagers and I know a lot of teenagers, and my goodness that this was out of control from the minute it hit. So it should have we only allowed vaping to exist as a tool to stop smoking. Should have we said you need to be able to you know, your GP should be prescribing this to you.

Well, I don't think you'd ever want to be that restrictive. But what I would say is initially the government thought that the existing legislation did cover this. I believe there was a court case where Philip Morris, one of the cigarette companies, ended up winning, and for two and a half years there was no legislation. So it wasn't that legislators had necessarily dropped the ball. They actually thought that it already was covered. But one thing that I just don't want to understate is how much smoking has decreased over the last thirteen fourteen years. It's gone from sixteen percent of adults down to seven percent today, quite a massive nine percent drop, and one thing you've got to keep in mind as well, Francesca, though, is what we call the floor effect, which is basically, as we get to lower and lower levels of smoking, it takes more and more effort to eke out the last little bit because the truth of the matter is some people are just never going to give up no matter what and what. This study didn't show. It didn't say, well, smoking's gone up since Fates have come into New Zealand. It just said that the rate of decline has slowed down. Some of that is to be expected because those stragglers just aren't going to.

Well, I don't think you'd ever want to be that restrictive. But what I would say is initially the government thought that the existing legislation did cover this. I believe there was a court case where Philip Morris, one of the cigarette companies, ended up winning, and for two and a half years there was no legislation. So it wasn't that legislators had necessarily dropped the ball. They actually thought that it already was covered. But one thing that I just don't want to understate is how much smoking has decreased over the last thirteen fourteen years. It's gone from sixteen percent of adults down to seven percent today, quite a massive nine percent drop, and one thing you've got to keep in mind as well, Francesca, though, is what we call the floor effect, which is basically, as we get to lower and lower levels of smoking, it takes more and more effort to eke out the last little bit because the truth of the matter is some people are just never going to give up no matter what and what. This study didn't show. It didn't say, well, smoking's gone up since Fates have come into New Zealand. It just said that the rate of decline has slowed down. Some of that is to be expected because those stragglers just aren't going to.

Quit, But there is that concern ed. It's like that whole. This isn't the same situation, but it's like that whole You have a joint and the next thing you know, you're on heroin. And that's that's what they're worried about. They're worried about that the vapor could potentially lead to smoking with the younger audience. Because I agree with you, look, I think that as a tool to stop smoking for the majority of your population, it can be. It's very useful. But I think when we're looking at these younger kids who have been targeted, it is rife out there with this age group. We need to kind of try and work out maybe how to differentiate between them and everybody else trying to stop smoking.

Quit, But there is that concern ed. It's like that whole. This isn't the same situation, but it's like that whole You have a joint and the next thing you know, you're on heroin. And that's that's what they're worried about. They're worried about that the vapor could potentially lead to smoking with the younger audience. Because I agree with you, look, I think that as a tool to stop smoking for the majority of your population, it can be. It's very useful. But I think when we're looking at these younger kids who have been targeted, it is rife out there with this age group. We need to kind of try and work out maybe how to differentiate between them and everybody else trying to stop smoking.

Yeah, well, I think will have Been is right when she's talking about setting a fifteen year old and then being able to get a vape, because that's just not right, is it. I mean, the fact that even still three percent of fourteen fifteen year olds are smoking, that's really concerning because that's a bit of forcement issue. They shouldn't be able to get vapes, they shouldn't be able to get cigarettes.

Yeah, well, I think will have Been is right when she's talking about setting a fifteen year old and then being able to get a vape, because that's just not right, is it. I mean, the fact that even still three percent of fourteen fifteen year olds are smoking, that's really concerning because that's a bit of forcement issue. They shouldn't be able to get vapes, they shouldn't be able to get cigarettes.

It's an education thing as well, I think, you know, I think that it is obviously such a useful tool, but we also don't have enough time. We're only just getting to the point now where there's enough time to actually have longitudinal studies to actually measure the health effects of this. And that was the whole thing when we brought it in, is it was this amazing tool to get people off cigarettes, but we didn't know what the long term effects of that was. And only now are we kind of coming up to that time where we're starting to learn and so it's all about educator around that. And now that information has been drip fed. Hopefully the tools will be there, but it might be a little bit too little, too late. But any kind of measure to try and improve what's happening now is obviously good.

It's an education thing as well, I think, you know, I think that it is obviously such a useful tool, but we also don't have enough time. We're only just getting to the point now where there's enough time to actually have longitudinal studies to actually measure the health effects of this. And that was the whole thing when we brought it in, is it was this amazing tool to get people off cigarettes, but we didn't know what the long term effects of that was. And only now are we kind of coming up to that time where we're starting to learn and so it's all about educator around that. And now that information has been drip fed. Hopefully the tools will be there, but it might be a little bit too little, too late. But any kind of measure to try and improve what's happening now is obviously good.

I think for some fourteen to fifteen year old's education is great, but I don't think it hits home for a lot of them when they can wander up to the dairy and grab themselves, you know, illegally a bait when they want to. I've found that it's come down to peers. So what you've noticed is kids are all trying it, and then it gets to a point where if you really like sport, you've suddenly gone, wow, this isn't making me feel great. I can really feel the impact of this on my lungs. And they stop, and then all of a sudden, everyone else arounds them go suddenly he goes, oh, yeah, yah, it's okay, Yeah, I don't have to do it. You know, like it almost feels like it comes more from peers going, God, this stuff's horrible. I'm really struggling with my sport, and everyone else goes, yeah, sually, I don't really like it either, and that is sort of having more of an impact. I find on teenagers kind of stopping what their peers are sort of saying about it and things. Anyway, let's crack on. Simme and Brown came down on our medical offices of health, our public health physicians who are required by law to talk about things that deal with broader health issues in local communities, because what might be right in the cargo might not be the same for somewhere on the West Coast or the North Island and things. So we have people who work in regions medical offices of health who you know, talk about what might be best for that community, and it is their job to talk about fast food and alcohol and smoking and vaping and all these kinds of issues and things. So I just think it was a bit tough that Simmy and Brown came out and said, look, where did you prefer it? If you didn't, could you just talk about these things we'd like you to talk about. And if you are going to talk about something, or you are going to work in an advocacy role, which is their job, you're going to have to pass that throw us first. Now, ed, is he overstep in the mark or do you think it's perfectly fine to tell these public health physicians how to do their job.

I think for some fourteen to fifteen year old's education is great, but I don't think it hits home for a lot of them when they can wander up to the dairy and grab themselves, you know, illegally a bait when they want to. I've found that it's come down to peers. So what you've noticed is kids are all trying it, and then it gets to a point where if you really like sport, you've suddenly gone, wow, this isn't making me feel great. I can really feel the impact of this on my lungs. And they stop, and then all of a sudden, everyone else arounds them go suddenly he goes, oh, yeah, yah, it's okay, Yeah, I don't have to do it. You know, like it almost feels like it comes more from peers going, God, this stuff's horrible. I'm really struggling with my sport, and everyone else goes, yeah, sually, I don't really like it either, and that is sort of having more of an impact. I find on teenagers kind of stopping what their peers are sort of saying about it and things. Anyway, let's crack on. Simme and Brown came down on our medical offices of health, our public health physicians who are required by law to talk about things that deal with broader health issues in local communities, because what might be right in the cargo might not be the same for somewhere on the West Coast or the North Island and things. So we have people who work in regions medical offices of health who you know, talk about what might be best for that community, and it is their job to talk about fast food and alcohol and smoking and vaping and all these kinds of issues and things. So I just think it was a bit tough that Simmy and Brown came out and said, look, where did you prefer it? If you didn't, could you just talk about these things we'd like you to talk about. And if you are going to talk about something, or you are going to work in an advocacy role, which is their job, you're going to have to pass that throw us first. Now, ed, is he overstep in the mark or do you think it's perfectly fine to tell these public health physicians how to do their job.

Well, there's kind of two sides to it, because on one side, you think, isn't there a big element of free speech and if these people want to go out and advocate for not having a McDonald's or advocating for less vapor or whatever they think is the right thing to do, surely that should be allowed to do it. But then as an employer, I kind of look at it from the other side and say, well, shouldn't the government have the ability to say, these are our priorities, we really care about vaccination, these are our goals. We want you as public health professionals to help us meet those goals, and so could you speak more about these sorts of things because that is going to help the organization meet the goals and that's what we're paying you for. So I think there's probably an element of, you know, should he be able to direct the public health professionals. There's probably an element to it. Whether he did it the right way, I think there's probably some big question marks about that.

Well, there's kind of two sides to it, because on one side, you think, isn't there a big element of free speech and if these people want to go out and advocate for not having a McDonald's or advocating for less vapor or whatever they think is the right thing to do, surely that should be allowed to do it. But then as an employer, I kind of look at it from the other side and say, well, shouldn't the government have the ability to say, these are our priorities, we really care about vaccination, these are our goals. We want you as public health professionals to help us meet those goals, and so could you speak more about these sorts of things because that is going to help the organization meet the goals and that's what we're paying you for. So I think there's probably an element of, you know, should he be able to direct the public health professionals. There's probably an element to it. Whether he did it the right way, I think there's probably some big question marks about that.

I think that's exactly what they are doing, though, Wilhelmina. These are the people who are out there talking about things like immunization one hundred.

I think that's exactly what they are doing, though, Wilhelmina. These are the people who are out there talking about things like immunization one hundred.

Percent, and you know, they are the ones on the front line. They are going to know better than anybody what the issues are that we actually need to focus on. So might have their priorities, it might not actually be what we need and what we want to see on the frontline and what communities actually need. So I think it's quite concerning that they are sort of being shepherded and directed down a particular route when actually that should be the ones who are finding their issues, flagging them first, and actually you know, trying to motivate change and in whichever the area they think needs focus on. So I think it is a little concerning, and I really hope that they aren't completely silenced.

Percent, and you know, they are the ones on the front line. They are going to know better than anybody what the issues are that we actually need to focus on. So might have their priorities, it might not actually be what we need and what we want to see on the frontline and what communities actually need. So I think it's quite concerning that they are sort of being shepherded and directed down a particular route when actually that should be the ones who are finding their issues, flagging them first, and actually you know, trying to motivate change and in whichever the area they think needs focus on. So I think it is a little concerning, and I really hope that they aren't completely silenced.

Thank you so much, Willamina Shrimpton and Ed McKnight.

Thank you so much, Willamina Shrimpton and Ed McKnight.

For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to news Talks they'd be from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.

For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to news Talks they'd be from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.