You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin from News Talks EDB.

You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin from News Talks EDB.

Jojo Moyes has written seven novels before her twenty twelve novel Me Before You Changed Her Life. It's sold over fifteen million copies and was adapted for a major Hollywood film, with Jojo herself writing the screenplay. Now Jojo is a global star. She sold over fifty seven million books and has a hit number one in twelve different countries. She recently released her seventeenth book, We All Live Here, and Jojo Moyes joins me, now, good morning, thank you so much for your time.

Jojo Moyes has written seven novels before her twenty twelve novel Me Before You Changed Her Life. It's sold over fifteen million copies and was adapted for a major Hollywood film, with Jojo herself writing the screenplay. Now Jojo is a global star. She sold over fifty seven million books and has a hit number one in twelve different countries. She recently released her seventeenth book, We All Live Here, and Jojo Moyes joins me, now, good morning, thank you so much for your time.

Oh, good morning, lovely to be here.

Oh, good morning, lovely to be here.

Our families in their dynamics endlessly fascinating to you.

Our families in their dynamics endlessly fascinating to you.

Yes, I always say when I'm giving talks in front of people, in front of audiences, I could say I could pluck any single person out of that audience and get two books out of them, because we all have you know, the two people who won't speak to each other, or the great mystery about Auntie to flow up the road, or you know, there's always tension, secrets, people who don't get on, people who love each other. It's just got everything you would want as a novelist.

Yes, I always say when I'm giving talks in front of people, in front of audiences, I could say I could pluck any single person out of that audience and get two books out of them, because we all have you know, the two people who won't speak to each other, or the great mystery about Auntie to flow up the road, or you know, there's always tension, secrets, people who don't get on, people who love each other. It's just got everything you would want as a novelist.

The traditional the tread wife might be trending at the moment, Joijo, but when you look around, the reality of modern families is that they look different these days, right.

The traditional the tread wife might be trending at the moment, Joijo, but when you look around, the reality of modern families is that they look different these days, right.

Yeah, absolutely, And that was one of the things that I was thinking about when I came to write this book, which is I did not grow up in a traditional family, or I did for a bit, but my family now, not my personal family, but the family I grew up in now has kind of grown and blended. And I have two step brothers, one of whom is in New Zealand. I have half sisters, I have a half brother, and we'll get on. We all like each other. And so I just wanted to reflect those different shaped families that have evolved, whether they're kind of you know, gay, straight, mixed race, blobby at the edges just a little bit, you know, not the shape that we grew up perhaps expecting.

Yeah, absolutely, And that was one of the things that I was thinking about when I came to write this book, which is I did not grow up in a traditional family, or I did for a bit, but my family now, not my personal family, but the family I grew up in now has kind of grown and blended. And I have two step brothers, one of whom is in New Zealand. I have half sisters, I have a half brother, and we'll get on. We all like each other. And so I just wanted to reflect those different shaped families that have evolved, whether they're kind of you know, gay, straight, mixed race, blobby at the edges just a little bit, you know, not the shape that we grew up perhaps expecting.

Did that least conventional family dynamic allow you to play around a lot more with the characters and their relationships and the strains and the things between them.

Did that least conventional family dynamic allow you to play around a lot more with the characters and their relationships and the strains and the things between them.

The one I came from or the fictional one.

The one I came from or the fictional one.

The fictional one, the one in the book.

The fictional one, the one in the book.

Yeah, oh, definitely. I mean, I have a great fondness for the film The Odd Couple, and so I'd always wanted to do something with two old men because, although they probably didn't think they were older that at the point it was made, there's just something really funny about two old men with a grudge against each other. And I did try to make those characters women at one point to see how that dynamic would work. I often kind of play around and see what works best. But I'm afraid she says making a sweeping generalization, old men were just funnier. And so once I was able to kind of think about that dynamic, these the dad and the biological dad and the stepdad who couldn't forgive each other after thirty five years, who couldn't let go of their grudge, everything else just kind of fell into place around it, and it just made me laugh writing them.

Yeah, oh, definitely. I mean, I have a great fondness for the film The Odd Couple, and so I'd always wanted to do something with two old men because, although they probably didn't think they were older that at the point it was made, there's just something really funny about two old men with a grudge against each other. And I did try to make those characters women at one point to see how that dynamic would work. I often kind of play around and see what works best. But I'm afraid she says making a sweeping generalization, old men were just funnier. And so once I was able to kind of think about that dynamic, these the dad and the biological dad and the stepdad who couldn't forgive each other after thirty five years, who couldn't let go of their grudge, everything else just kind of fell into place around it, and it just made me laugh writing them.

I wanted to talk to you about forgiveness because it is such an admirable thing to be able to forgive, and often you hear people forgiving others of terrible things that they've done, and I think, wow, that is amazing and it's what we should all do. But it's actually really hard. Isn't it.

I wanted to talk to you about forgiveness because it is such an admirable thing to be able to forgive, and often you hear people forgiving others of terrible things that they've done, and I think, wow, that is amazing and it's what we should all do. But it's actually really hard. Isn't it.

Yeah. I listened to a really interesting interview recently though, with a woman who had forgiven one of those terrible crimes. I'd forgotten which it was, but she said, I decided that if I couldn't forgive this person, it was like an umbilical cord that held me to them because of the bitterness I felt and the anger I felt, and so I wanted to cut that cord, and I wanted to be free of them. So the forgiveness was a gift to me and not to them. That was just incidental for them. But what a brilliant way of looking at it. But yes, forgiveness, I would say is the kind of key emotion in this book because it's about how all families are full of people messing up. I mean, all our parents mess up. Is because we all go into parenthood not having a clue, you know, how to do it. We've never done it before. It doesn't come with a rule book. And so Lilah, my main character, when we meet her at the start of the book, she's so angry with her two dats for various reasons, but why she realizes halfway through is that she's in danger of passing that exact same dynamic onto her own children. But most of us kind of we're so busy muddling through that we don't look at the patterns that we're repeating. I mean, I'm fascinated by all the psychotherapy and I love it. It just I love watching why we fall into the traps that we do, and how we sabotage our own happiness. And I think forgiveness is an absolutely key emotion, as you say, if you can manage it.

Yeah. I listened to a really interesting interview recently though, with a woman who had forgiven one of those terrible crimes. I'd forgotten which it was, but she said, I decided that if I couldn't forgive this person, it was like an umbilical cord that held me to them because of the bitterness I felt and the anger I felt, and so I wanted to cut that cord, and I wanted to be free of them. So the forgiveness was a gift to me and not to them. That was just incidental for them. But what a brilliant way of looking at it. But yes, forgiveness, I would say is the kind of key emotion in this book because it's about how all families are full of people messing up. I mean, all our parents mess up. Is because we all go into parenthood not having a clue, you know, how to do it. We've never done it before. It doesn't come with a rule book. And so Lilah, my main character, when we meet her at the start of the book, she's so angry with her two dats for various reasons, but why she realizes halfway through is that she's in danger of passing that exact same dynamic onto her own children. But most of us kind of we're so busy muddling through that we don't look at the patterns that we're repeating. I mean, I'm fascinated by all the psychotherapy and I love it. It just I love watching why we fall into the traps that we do, and how we sabotage our own happiness. And I think forgiveness is an absolutely key emotion, as you say, if you can manage it.

Because it's interesting you said that because Lila, you know, she is trying to make sure that she doesn't fall into the traps of her parents. You know, she doesn't drink because her father drink and things like that. But as you say, it's still very easy. You know, the way we're nurtured has an impact, doesn't it.

Because it's interesting you said that because Lila, you know, she is trying to make sure that she doesn't fall into the traps of her parents. You know, she doesn't drink because her father drink and things like that. But as you say, it's still very easy. You know, the way we're nurtured has an impact, doesn't it.

Lingers Yeah, And she just goes on to make a whole bunch of mistakes of her own, completely fresh ones.

Lingers Yeah, And she just goes on to make a whole bunch of mistakes of her own, completely fresh ones.

I also really enjoyed this book because it kind of explores that Sandward generation, that stage where you've got your kids, you've got a busy work life, and your parents are elderly and they need you to Why did you want to write about that? Sort of period.

I also really enjoyed this book because it kind of explores that Sandward generation, that stage where you've got your kids, you've got a busy work life, and your parents are elderly and they need you to Why did you want to write about that? Sort of period.

I'm sure we write about the things that preoccupy us as writers, and of course, being that age, I am preoccupied by a lot of those issues. But also I feel quite strongly that women of that age get kind of a raw deal in fiction, because most middle aged women in fiction, I mean, you know, from fairy Tales onwards, we were either witches crones, or we were good mothers who were killed off at the beginning of the book. And then you know, when you look at things like Jane Austen, you've got the missus Bennett's and kind of terrible mothers or the meddling kind of duchesses from the neighboring village. But they're just very rarely funny, they're very rarely sexy, they're very rarely good friends with each other. And as I've got older, my female friends have been such a support to me. And they're funny, and they're goofy, and they do stupid things. And just because we're in our fifties doesn't mean I mean we don't kind of act like idiots sometimes. But they're also really strong, really capable, and you know, I did an interview recently where I said that all these women, they're holding up the sky. They're holding down all these things that you just mentioned, the jobs and looking after the elderly families and managing the bet appointments and you know, making sure everybody's got uniform and it's just all I remarked upon labor generally, so I wanted to celebrate it, but do it in a way that didn't make women look like martyrs.

I'm sure we write about the things that preoccupy us as writers, and of course, being that age, I am preoccupied by a lot of those issues. But also I feel quite strongly that women of that age get kind of a raw deal in fiction, because most middle aged women in fiction, I mean, you know, from fairy Tales onwards, we were either witches crones, or we were good mothers who were killed off at the beginning of the book. And then you know, when you look at things like Jane Austen, you've got the missus Bennett's and kind of terrible mothers or the meddling kind of duchesses from the neighboring village. But they're just very rarely funny, they're very rarely sexy, they're very rarely good friends with each other. And as I've got older, my female friends have been such a support to me. And they're funny, and they're goofy, and they do stupid things. And just because we're in our fifties doesn't mean I mean we don't kind of act like idiots sometimes. But they're also really strong, really capable, and you know, I did an interview recently where I said that all these women, they're holding up the sky. They're holding down all these things that you just mentioned, the jobs and looking after the elderly families and managing the bet appointments and you know, making sure everybody's got uniform and it's just all I remarked upon labor generally, so I wanted to celebrate it, but do it in a way that didn't make women look like martyrs.

It's that mental load, isn't it. And we do have to be careful not to be like Mars. You know, it's haven't we all. I had a hilarious conversation with my partner recently, our oldest child left to go to university, and he turned it, look at me and goes, that's going to make your mental load better? And I was thinking, no, no, no, I didn't need to get rid of a child to reduce the mental load. You just needed to step up and help more. I just thought that was wonderful. Yeah, it's a wonderfully warm book. You've got these honest, complex characters. As you say, they're dealing with a lot of you know, issues and adversity and pain, but you've balanced their stories so nicely with humor and grace. Is that something you like doing moving your readers but also making us laugh.

It's that mental load, isn't it. And we do have to be careful not to be like Mars. You know, it's haven't we all. I had a hilarious conversation with my partner recently, our oldest child left to go to university, and he turned it, look at me and goes, that's going to make your mental load better? And I was thinking, no, no, no, I didn't need to get rid of a child to reduce the mental load. You just needed to step up and help more. I just thought that was wonderful. Yeah, it's a wonderfully warm book. You've got these honest, complex characters. As you say, they're dealing with a lot of you know, issues and adversity and pain, but you've balanced their stories so nicely with humor and grace. Is that something you like doing moving your readers but also making us laugh.

Definitely. I didn't do it for the first seven books. I mean, there might have been the odd slight smile in there, but I didn't use humor until I got to Me Before You. And the reason I did it then was the subject matter was potentially so bleak. I thought, I have to leaven this with some laughs, and although that might sound a bit unlikely, you know, a story about a man who wants to end his life being leavened with laughs. I thought about the fact that we had had two people in my close vicinity who we had cared for who required twenty four hour care, and I realized that it's always the emergency services who have the best jokes, and it's people who you know who are dealing with the darkest things that often have the best sense of humor, because that's how we cope as human beings, or perhaps that's just how the people I know cope. And so maybe for You suddenly took off in a way that obviously none of my other books had even come close to, and I realized I love making people feel stuff. It's not just.

Definitely. I didn't do it for the first seven books. I mean, there might have been the odd slight smile in there, but I didn't use humor until I got to Me Before You. And the reason I did it then was the subject matter was potentially so bleak. I thought, I have to leaven this with some laughs, and although that might sound a bit unlikely, you know, a story about a man who wants to end his life being leavened with laughs. I thought about the fact that we had had two people in my close vicinity who we had cared for who required twenty four hour care, and I realized that it's always the emergency services who have the best jokes, and it's people who you know who are dealing with the darkest things that often have the best sense of humor, because that's how we cope as human beings, or perhaps that's just how the people I know cope. And so maybe for You suddenly took off in a way that obviously none of my other books had even come close to, and I realized I love making people feel stuff. It's not just.

Making people cryet Although I'm to say. I do love making people cry, but I really love making them laugh. You know, if someone reads a passage and they start sniggering.

Making people cryet Although I'm to say. I do love making people cry, but I really love making them laugh. You know, if someone reads a passage and they start sniggering.

And what made you laugh? What made you laugh? Because when I read a book, I love being made to feel something. If someone can make me laugh in a book, I will buy that author again and again and again. Like, if you can make me feel something, I'm coming back to buy that book every time. So yeah, I love doing it.

And what made you laugh? What made you laugh? Because when I read a book, I love being made to feel something. If someone can make me laugh in a book, I will buy that author again and again and again. Like, if you can make me feel something, I'm coming back to buy that book every time. So yeah, I love doing it.

When you sit down to write, do you have the whole story planned out? You mentioned before that you did play around with a couple of the characters, but there are a lot of characters and a lot of moving parts here. Do you do you have sort of a basic structure in mind?

When you sit down to write, do you have the whole story planned out? You mentioned before that you did play around with a couple of the characters, but there are a lot of characters and a lot of moving parts here. Do you do you have sort of a basic structure in mind?

Yeah. I mean there's a running joke that writers are either plotters or panthers, and I am a plotter. I have a vague idea where I want everything to go. Sometimes the characters run away with you a bit, and sometimes things don't go one hundred percent the way they meant to. But I know basically how I want the reader to feel at the end of the book, and what are the things that I want to have really fallen into place? And then it's just a matter of how I get there.

Yeah. I mean there's a running joke that writers are either plotters or panthers, and I am a plotter. I have a vague idea where I want everything to go. Sometimes the characters run away with you a bit, and sometimes things don't go one hundred percent the way they meant to. But I know basically how I want the reader to feel at the end of the book, and what are the things that I want to have really fallen into place? And then it's just a matter of how I get there.

I read a piece you wrote after the first round of publicity. There are parallels in this book to your own life. But this book is not about you. It's just, you know, it's another book from your imagination. However, a lot of questions directed it. You were very personal with the assumption made that this was a personal story turned into fiction. Did you find that frustrating?

I read a piece you wrote after the first round of publicity. There are parallels in this book to your own life. But this book is not about you. It's just, you know, it's another book from your imagination. However, a lot of questions directed it. You were very personal with the assumption made that this was a personal story turned into fiction. Did you find that frustrating?

It did? Well? Yeah, I was a bit naive, I think because I'd written sixteen books before this, and nobody had ever assumed it was anything to do with me, just because I wrote a book about a middle aged divorced mother who writes books, although she writes nonfiction. Then suddenly, you know, I did this German interview and the first thing the guy said was, so you got excuse my terrible aks. And by the way, you got divorced up to twenty two years. How come you didn't know the guy was wrong for you? After ten and I thought this was going to be about writing, and I literally I think my jaw must have just hit the floor. And I can't even remember what I said. I think I just budged it and said, well, people change or something really weak. But I slightly wish i'd just poked him in the eye and gone, wait, that's just none of your business. And also I get on really well with my ex not but that's any of anybody's business either. But I just, yeah, it's not me, None of it's me. I will never write a book about a middle aged woman writer again. I've learned my lesson.

It did? Well? Yeah, I was a bit naive, I think because I'd written sixteen books before this, and nobody had ever assumed it was anything to do with me, just because I wrote a book about a middle aged divorced mother who writes books, although she writes nonfiction. Then suddenly, you know, I did this German interview and the first thing the guy said was, so you got excuse my terrible aks. And by the way, you got divorced up to twenty two years. How come you didn't know the guy was wrong for you? After ten and I thought this was going to be about writing, and I literally I think my jaw must have just hit the floor. And I can't even remember what I said. I think I just budged it and said, well, people change or something really weak. But I slightly wish i'd just poked him in the eye and gone, wait, that's just none of your business. And also I get on really well with my ex not but that's any of anybody's business either. But I just, yeah, it's not me, None of it's me. I will never write a book about a middle aged woman writer again. I've learned my lesson.

I mean, as it had balancing the public figure and keeping your private life private.

I mean, as it had balancing the public figure and keeping your private life private.

Only when the publicity mill comes around. Because I lead a very quiet life, you know. I go to very few seliby events. I'm mostly trudging around with my dogs in the local park or hanging out with my friends who I've had since I was very young. Yeah, I've done the odd red carpet, but sure there's always a point to it. Not very good. I had a little taste of it with the fame stuff, with the me before you thing, and it turns out I'm rubbish and I just I look like a rabbit in headlights. I'm just an introvert who likes to be behind my desk. Basically, I'm too old to be interesting anyway.

Only when the publicity mill comes around. Because I lead a very quiet life, you know. I go to very few seliby events. I'm mostly trudging around with my dogs in the local park or hanging out with my friends who I've had since I was very young. Yeah, I've done the odd red carpet, but sure there's always a point to it. Not very good. I had a little taste of it with the fame stuff, with the me before you thing, and it turns out I'm rubbish and I just I look like a rabbit in headlights. I'm just an introvert who likes to be behind my desk. Basically, I'm too old to be interesting anyway.

I don't think that's the case, Jojo. I'd love to talk to you about AI because it's an ever increasing threat to ants and creative industries. And you said in an interview recently that you knew that your work had been scraped by AI, and that probably every successful author's work had been scraped. Does that just drive you wild?

I don't think that's the case, Jojo. I'd love to talk to you about AI because it's an ever increasing threat to ants and creative industries. And you said in an interview recently that you knew that your work had been scraped by AI, and that probably every successful author's work had been scraped. Does that just drive you wild?

It drives me completely mad, because it's theft. It is theft that you know you're taking something that I put blood, sweat and tears into to train your technological devices. And I also think it's a disaster for the climate. You know, my own kids have schooled me on the amount of water it takes to use AI, and it's shocking a huge amount, and at a time when you know the planet can really not afford it. I just think, just use your brains. People. They're really good as a rule, and you can train them to do all sorts of amazing things without cost to anybody except you know, you grow a few but more brain cells. I would love it if we could be slightly less entrill to the take bros.

It drives me completely mad, because it's theft. It is theft that you know you're taking something that I put blood, sweat and tears into to train your technological devices. And I also think it's a disaster for the climate. You know, my own kids have schooled me on the amount of water it takes to use AI, and it's shocking a huge amount, and at a time when you know the planet can really not afford it. I just think, just use your brains. People. They're really good as a rule, and you can train them to do all sorts of amazing things without cost to anybody except you know, you grow a few but more brain cells. I would love it if we could be slightly less entrill to the take bros.

We've spoken a little bit in this interview about me before you the twenty twelve book, which was huge. How much did they change your life? To Joe?

We've spoken a little bit in this interview about me before you the twenty twelve book, which was huge. How much did they change your life? To Joe?

It changed everything, It changed everything. I went from being a kind of a writer who pretty much couldn't get arrested, I couldn't get another book contract, and that book suddenly propelled me to a place where the most important thing was I just had readers. And that's the one thing that you dream of when you've been writing as long as I had. You just want people to read your book. But you know, it gave me financial security. It gave me access to really amazing other creative people. So I've got to meet a lot of my heroes and hang out with them, and I've got to travel to places I would never have been. I sometimes think my fourteen year old self would not have believed how my life turned out, and it's all thanks to that book.

It changed everything, It changed everything. I went from being a kind of a writer who pretty much couldn't get arrested, I couldn't get another book contract, and that book suddenly propelled me to a place where the most important thing was I just had readers. And that's the one thing that you dream of when you've been writing as long as I had. You just want people to read your book. But you know, it gave me financial security. It gave me access to really amazing other creative people. So I've got to meet a lot of my heroes and hang out with them, and I've got to travel to places I would never have been. I sometimes think my fourteen year old self would not have believed how my life turned out, and it's all thanks to that book.

If you could, what would you go back and tell your fourteen year old self?

If you could, what would you go back and tell your fourteen year old self?

Now you have no idea how good this is going to be. I was quite doomy as a kid, so I think I would have probably gone, I don't believe you and stuck my head under the doubt.

Now you have no idea how good this is going to be. I was quite doomy as a kid, so I think I would have probably gone, I don't believe you and stuck my head under the doubt.

Jo Jo boys, it's been an absolute fleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time, Thank you so much, and feeing of you. Keen to get your hands on JoJo's new book, We All Live Here. It's in bookstores now.

Jo Jo boys, it's been an absolute fleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time, Thank you so much, and feeing of you. Keen to get your hands on JoJo's new book, We All Live Here. It's in bookstores now.

For more from a Sunday session with Francesca Rudgn, listen live to news talks. It'd be from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio

For more from a Sunday session with Francesca Rudgn, listen live to news talks. It'd be from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio