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5. Let’s Get Friendly with Phoebe - emotional labour, high integrative complexity and boundaries

Published Jul 31, 2021, 12:18 AM

The second instalment of our let’s get friendly episodes with the glorious Phoebe, here to talk about situationships, setting healthy boundaries and climate anxiety.

 

Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the Very Unprofessional podcast, whereby I your unqualified guide talk through some of the big changes and transitions about twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Welcome back to a new week on the podcast. I hope it's been a fabulous time for all those listening. It's a very special episode, yes, because it's part two of my Let's Get Friendly segment and I have none other than the amazing Phoebe with me on the show. I've got the gig giggles. I'm excited. I'm really excited for thanks having me. Yeah, Oh, it's a pleasure. Honestly, Phoebe was one of the first people I think I told about doing this. Yeah, it was AMZ exams and oh you were like, instead of studying, you were creating the artwork for it, and I was like, yes, yeah, o Jemma, and also you were a huge spiration behind it as well. No, because we would have all these conversations about sadness. Sadness firstly busts of that, but also just like really cool psychological concepts when we used to study it, the themes building together. To be fair, though, I have zero knowledge about psychology, like at all, and so it'd be me being like, yeah, maybe a bit, and You're like, and it's because of this, and I'd be like what she was like a case study for me. I was doing, like I hate Decision one patient zero. I was doing like abnormal psychology and like social psychology at the time, and I was like saying, I'm abnormal. Don't crack that with me. Okay, we need to We're already on the tangents. So yeah, I thought i'd invite Phoebe on because she has been such a huge motivator and a real gem of the past year. Um do you want to tell them how we met? How did we meet? Um? Yeah, say, well we met it was a mutual friend. Yeah, we met for a mutual friend. And I think you know, when you meet those sort of people that you have um A very like, you just know that you're on the same page. You just know that your lives are heading in similar directions. You just know that you've got a similar worldview, you've got a similar perspective. And yeah, it was just really refreshing to meet Gemma at that time and time of my life. Yeah, it genuinely was. And it start off. We've gone alose little study dates, Yeah, we would. And we have always talk about how the reason we get along really similar, really well is because we were raised the same, very similar values. Our moms are very similar people. Yeah, I don't know about our dads, but I reckon that maybe I don't know. Yeah, that's something we can talk about, attachment style, get into it. But I remember the first time I met I remember I met you on FaceTime. M hmmm, oh yes, I remember this, yeah, and I was like I was in a pretty I didn't have many people that I really loved hanging out with. And then I met you on your twenty first birthday. Oh my god, my twenty first birthday. I'm nearly twenty two, actually like a week and a bit, so we've basically been we've known each other for a year now. That's pretty cool. Yeah, crazy, And I remember meeting you on your birthday and I was in a rotten fucking mood. I think my ex boyfriend had done something kissed me off. Um. But then the next time we met, I was like, it was like I met my like a soulmate, my twin flame stuff, and I was like i'n to get along. It was. It was very like and I remember what. Every time I'd see you, I'd be like, so we're gonna be friends. Yeah, yeah, let's let's make this friendship happened. Yeah. It's like, Um, I have this thing where I'd like, I'll meet people and I'm just like them, I like pick them, and I'm like, I feel so special. It's like the Bachelorette. You've like, give me a rose. Yeah, I give you a bunch of roses if I could afford it, but I can't. So yeah, I thought we'd get one here today just to talk about what's been going on. You have so many valuable lessons um from your twenties. Yeah, twenty two two years. I know, it's so exciting years experience. UM, and we kind of bond over a lot of different highs and lows, highs and lows, and those are the best people I think to talk to because then you know, you can actually really share perspectives and we get pretty deep into it. Love tiktoks. I do love my tiktoks. So a bit of an issue. Craco for the wine, Yes, have a glass with us if you got a bottle of wine. It's after three pm. Maybe treat yourself. Treat yourself. Oh we can hear it? Can you hear that? Everyone on the podcast you're listening, Welcome back to the podcast. Really embarrassing. I once had to host a what was it it was? I think it was Valetta for smaller Okay, Valeta for my college, and um, they asked me to host like the DEA And they're like, oh, can like in the breaks between like awards, can you do something else? Like? Sure? What I did ASMR in front of my entire college? Were you drunk? Partially? Was not actually that drunk? And so I did ASMR Like, hey guys, welcome to the college hall. I'm not sure. I just stocks myself. No, I don't live there anymore. You don't live you don't love it, But you did? You did? But I did? And I did ASMR in front of everyone. Oh my god. So phoebe, Um, we have hips of topies we want to talk about. Um, you were in SR. Oh cheers of chars. You're in SR when we first met, and I was the faithful year of twenty twenty to be an SR. Yeah, how was your twenty twenty? Um? I would say it was interesting. It was definitely an interesting year. Ended up starting off the year. I think you had Kate on the podcast two episodes ago, a few episodes ago, and she said, like, started off like, yeah, she's an SA cool going forward, and then obviously COVID hit and it screwed everyone over just a little bit um. End up going home. My mum became a celebrity. That was very odd. And then can we say her name? No, we probably shouldn't. I mean you can. My last name is so common you can probably google her, but look up essay chief health minister. No, no, she's not politician, chief health offical officer. Sorry yea, And so she just got It was very weird time for me, just because it was like everyone was like, I'm at home with my family for like six months, and I was like, I'm home and my family are working twenty four seven and not just working like they are like the most essential workers in South Australia. Yeah, so that was kind of fun. But then second half of the year was suddenly you come back from like I lived with my grandma when COVID was on and came back and it was like, oh my god, being plunged back into college and I just got a very over college, Yeah, very quickly. Yeah, and you had a lot of it was hard for you because you were you were twenty one years old dealing with pastoral concerns of people who were your same age, Like how did you find that? That's a huge, you know, mental health experience in itself. I think it's hard enough being a SR without a COVID year happening, because that definitely added I think a lot of like in a college situation, we weren't like there was a lot of restrictions. We were placed into positions where as leaders of the college, we had to enforce rules, like we were this sort of like police officer role, and that was very unusual. And you were not paid for that, not paid for it, I mean we like didn't pay rent, but it was still debsidering the work you were doing. Yeah. Yeah, I remember midem SEM two last year, I just was like I've lost it. I've lost it completely. But then, to be fair, I am extremely dramatic and think that my because I care. I'm a nerve, I care about my grades a lot, and I thought that the world was ending because of SR and I didn't have time to study as much as normal, and it was all fine. I worked out in the end, because everything always does work out in the end. And Phoebe is one of these people that like you just you're you're you're almost downgrade your experiences to be like, oh, I got hit by a bus, but like I only broke my legs. I still have a finger. It's fine. So let me just clear up. You did have a fucked year, like you're dealing with like many many crises and your own kind of stuff at the same time, and that's what we became friends. So yeah, I mean see positive stuff came out of it. You were literally like a godsend for me, Like I hadn't really consent for me. God, we need actually flirting because it's just going to basically be a date between Deva and I, but you're just you're just like sitting at the table opposite and overhearing it all. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like a first date. But like we already know each other. But I'm like asking you all these like so, how was that for your hobbies? It's your favorite color? Oh, what's yours? It's actually green? Oh, mine's blue? Vapor with primary colors. It's green a primary color. No, no, green's not. Oh sorry, you're not allowed to come into the club. But yeah, and then how would you be happy talking about how the year ended? In what way? In what way? Um? Romantically? Okay, because I feel like we need to talk about situation. Yeah, okay, We've got a few things that we're going to discuss. Just to do some signposting, as you do in an essay. Um, we're just true academic feature spit where we're gonna signpost what we're going to be talking about. Um. One of those things is love life and lack thereof, or abundance there abundance thereof? When it rains a pause? Um, is it pouring for you right now? Maybe? Maybe? Um, in the sense that like I wouldn't say that I've ever really been in a proper relationship. Yes, Just do you have like any insecurity about that? Would you say or not really? Um? Or do you just not think about it? I mean I was massively judged in like the first few years of college as I think society societally, yes, socially, socially, culturally, culturally, Um, there's this sort of pressure to like you're either super promiscuous or you're a prude. Like there's no there's no clear in between. And like my dating history is just a lot of like random three month things with people, and very few of them have I had like a genuine connection with Yeah, have you? And because I feel like that, Um, that can be pretty hard. Like a lot of your friends were a long term relationships around that time and you were kind of there. Did you want more from these people or were you happy with some of them? Yes, some of them, know, I don't know. It was the one over, the more recent one of the offing that yeah, yeah, I left you. It's a little bit. We should talk about that, like the psychology of like rejection. Would you want to tell me about the psychology of a situationship and why they happen? Should we define a situation? Yeah? Do you want to define it? And then I'll explain. Yeah, So a situationship is you seeing someone, you're dating someone you're not. You don't have a label on it. You've spoken about it, Um, there's no label, or you might not. You might not have spoken about it. There's no label, but you do things that a serious relationship would. Oh, you guys were doing serious like stuff that was more serious than than me and I don't have COVID, Like, um, the time when you had to take him to the hospital and like call his dad. Yeah that was fun. Um Yeah, just doing things like very very like long term relationship, not just like casual seeing someone. Yeah, it's it was something more. Okay, So thanks to Phoebe for explaining what a situation ship is. Okay, I'm going to give like a brief psychological explanation. Behind you can open the chucky. It's really exciting. Guys. It's some corn flake chocolate. Only you would buy that because cereals the best. Yeah. So a situation ship, I think a really good way to kind of apply, like a good framework to apply is like social psychology. So naturally, when you think about our instincts as people, it's to breed, it's to survive, it's to chocolate across the room, it's to you know, improve the chances of our gene survival. But it's also to feel socially stable, socially secure and supported. But I think in the modern day as well, there is this huge pressure which comes from a more modern social kind of aspect to not settle down, to be free to be young, and it depends on your kind of Yeah, you're a perspective on dating. So I think the reason why situation ships arise is as I'm merely a cure for social loneliness. And it's the sense that like when you are with this person, you feel seen, you feel heard, you feel supported, you feel like if you're in the wild, you would have a body. And I have this great perspective that I well, I don't think it's great, but I just think that long term relationships and partnerships aren't actually natural. And I know there is like some definite studies that suggest that some people have like given it off of pseudoscience and pushing a certain perspective of certain ideology. But I think that we weren't naturally made to live eighty years with someone. You know, when relationships as a concept or partnering or coupling as a concept began, you know, the life expectancy was like thirty five years true. And I think, so I think you can be with somebody up into eighty like I we have. You're you're much more romantic than I am. Yeah, I think. I mean, my people in my family have been together for a very very long time since I're eighteen up being like uscrew you for having beautiful, loving relationships. But I think I do agree in that sense that people come into your vision just for friendships as well as relationships. But people come into your life for like brief spurts. Yeah, they come into your life for like at a time and a place, and they stay for a certain amount of time for a reason. And I've just been in the situation where a lot of people have stuck around for three months, but I've learned a lot from them. I learn a lot from those people you have, And I think that a lot of the time, the reason why we do get into those short term things is because we crave social intimacy and emotional and physical intimacy, especially when well at any age in your life, at any age. And I think as well, because I think Gemma and I think are very similar on the fact that we've similar sort of life goals and what we want for ourselves and our career and what we want to do. And I know that like for me personally, I know, like I want to live in New Zealand, I want to move to Darwin, Like I've got these these plans and I know deep down every time I see someone that I'm like, well, I'm want to always prioritize doing what I want to do over yah, being in a long term, committed relationship, and I'm sure, great, somebody is eventually going to come in and fit into that spot. Yeah I hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. But but like I don't think, like you know, you need, the chances of that actually happening is so low. And we hear all these stories like, oh, I met my life partner when I was at UNI, my brother if you're watching, if you're listening, listening, listening, no, but extrue, we hear all these stories and like, it just doesn't happen for everyone. You know, you're also maybe just not ready. You don't know who you are at the time. I think since that situationship has ended, you have discovered so much more about yourself. Absolutely, and I know for a fact that this person would not have been able to fit setting boundaries. Let's talk about that in terms of situations. But I also want to ask, what did you learn from that experience at the start of the year, because you learn a lot. Yeah I did. I Well, I learned what it's like to really feel something like I think, um, but I learned that I I like bound I think it's the boundary setting thing. So so prior to that situation ship, I had another situation ship, like I think I was almost like six months or something. Who was this with somebody? I put the number the start of the oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah um, and I just let that carry on. I just let it just keep just keep happening. I was, oh, whatever, like eventually he'll move by me or eventually blah blah blah, um I want to date me. Um. But with this situation ship, I was very clear. I was like, right hit the three month mark, clearly liked him, clearly, told him, was like, hey, had this big chap. He was like, oh, he's a few random things that can we tell them? I mean I think we can. Parents are divorced, can't commit, can't commit, can't commit. Too many of you can't commit parents are divorce. But if but if, but if you wanted to day here date me great. So anyway, I was like, well, no, you have no people want to stay friends actually And I was like, no, you there's there's no access here. If that's like, I've got to set this boundary, and I'm so glad I have. Yeah. And also here's a big lesson that I've learned. If they want to date you, they will date you. They will, they will date you. Like there is no point forcing people making PowerPoint presentations like fucking trying to convince them and changing yourself for somebody as well, that's the biggest loss that you can kind of do. Very proud of you for setting that parents out of myself. And you did the classic You did the big social media block afterwards as well. I did. I'm a huge fan of that, like honestly, huge fan, huge, huge fan of the old block. I mean immediately, I did do that one as a mistake. I didn't realize Facebook like delete. I love it, great idea. It was an accident because I didn't realize that when you delete, like when you block, someone unfriends them, and I didn't quite realize that. Yeah, but um, a huge fan of it because then there I have this theory that if somebody's not directly in your life, they actually don't exist. Oh, Phoebe tells me this all the time, So it's like this, I feel like it's a little bit delusional. She always says to me, like whenever I'm going through stuff and you know, I call her four I am at my ex boyfriend's mum's house, like stupid. She's always like just block them, like just just stop seeing them, because then they don't exist. They genuinely don't explain that a little bit more because I feel like I don't know how to explain it. But like it's I mean, at the end of the day, like what is this is gonna get sont please just sound like superficial deep like um, but nothing like what is real? You know, and if that person doesn't have access to my life, my everyday sort of emotions and feelings, like I mean, there's how many people on the planet, so many of them don't exist to me, Wow, that's actually really good because I don't know how many of the like none of these people are ever going to think of me. I'm never going to think of them. If somebody's not in my life and the day to day or the weekly or the monthly or I'm keeping up to day on social media, they don't exist in my books, They're out of your atmosphere. I actually love that explanation. I'm going to steal that so many people in the world you don't know exactly, don't exist to you. They don't well, I think, haven't come into my life yet. And you can choose to kick people out exactly. And that's where we get into this boundary discussion because I have to have one of these recently where I was just like, what do you want from me? What do you want from me? Because I'm not going to I'm just at the stage of my life where I value my and I know you're the same. We value out independence and our creativity and our own success success. I think we're very successful women. Gemma. Yeah, I think we are very successful. That's why I love hanging out with you because every time we talk about our goals and our dreams, you never make me feel bad for saying things that I think are areposterous. And that's creds to my mother for that, like honestly or like so when you went to letting tangent. But we'll talk about this because a big time. I think the best kinds of friendships, and I've talked about this with people on the show before, are those where every time you see them you learn more about them. They're full of surprises. Every relationship like that is beautiful, like true. And I remember this one time, you'd just come back from TenneT Creek, which is in the middle of Northern Territories. Yeah, smack bang, population three thousand, and I was just amazed because you just had this whole new perspective on your future. Yeah, and then on your life. You want to move from situation if I want to talk about boundaries, but put a pin in it. We're going to talk about TenneT Creek and Phoebe's amazing philosophies and learning and lesser from that, But boundaries was. I think we both prioritize our own personal growth so much more than we did when we were younger. Oh absolutely, or even a few months ago. I think when I was younger, I valued it, but it was in the sense that it was because I thought that's like, that was how other people would like me. More like I wanted to succeed. I remember, like from high school, I was very I was a huge overachiever, but a huge perfectionist because I had this crippling anxiety of how I was perceived to other people. I had to be the best at sport, I had to have the best atar. I had to be Oh my god, I was like on the debating team and all of that sort of stuff, and I know I did I did. I did it all I did. I did the music, I did the horse riding, I did this ka, literally everything you could think of, because I was like, that's how people are gonna like me. And now I only do things because I'm like, actually, I enjoy these things for myself. Fuck yes, big. That's a huge thing you learn in your twenties, and I think like it's that shift from external to internal validation and you realize that your real self shouldn't be a concept of what others have of you. Absolutely, your real self should be who you. Firstly, it should be close to your actual self. And that's like a bit of psychology, like your real self should be close to your actual self and that's how you prevent like feeling disordered and disrupted and distressed. But also it shouldn't be based on what other people want of you, and that I like have this amazing spiritual healer friend in Corumbum and her name's Helena, and she's just beautiful. She's remarkable, and she always said that to me, like when I was going through hard times, the only person that gets to create your happiness is yourself. And that's a huge shift that you've definitely had in recently. Absolutely, I mean it probably helps with other things. No more contraceptive pill and oh yeah, we need to talk about the pill. Sue. The pill sucks both of It sucked us both up royally, Like I was so sad six months ago and then now I'm beautiful and my skins beautiful as I went on it for my skincare and now my skins better. Let's let's get back on track. Boundaries. So both of us have we're not setting boundaries in its conversation, but both of us have such very, very vivid ideas of our future. If you're not going to fit in with that, what is the point of keeping you around? Yeah, exactly. And if you're not going to fit into the life that I have now, I'm not going to let you lead me on. I'm not going to let you Like. This isn't just in terms of relationships, this is anyone that comes into setting boundaries with friendships. I think it comes a point where you really have to sit back and be like, does this person with my with my ideal self, with my higher self? Actually, would they be in my life when I picture how my higher self is, Am I still going to be sleeping with that guy who like never reciprocates anything you've got to do, like a cost benefit analysis, but not for the present but also for the future. Yeah, wow, that's hard. Big Excel spreadsheet you need for that? If only I knew how to use it. So we'll teach you one day. Surely you can add no words into the shop. I had a mass test for like my agg cause like a week or so ago, and this guy made me an Excel spreadsheet so I didn't have to do the mass Oh this guy. Yeah, anyway, I know who this guy is that he's gonna listen. Well, you know who you are. But I had this recently where you know, I was feeling led on by this guy. I felt like really insecure, and I had a chat with him and I was like, Okay, what is this? What do you want for me? Is this casual? Because that's what I want, But it seems like you don't even want that, and that's not going to work with me right now. I'm not going to be sitting around waiting for you to message me. Absolutely not going to work with my life priorities. Don't have time, that's the big thing as well. I don't have time. Yeah, I'm working part time, ming full time. I don't have time. Yeah. I have so many amazing friends who I would like. Tonight, I was meant to go on a date canceled because I wanted to record it with your friends. Like, sorry if you're listening, but that's why. No, my grandma isn't in hospital. I'm drinking wine with my really good friend. Yes, and we're talking about you and we're on a date now. Yeah, I'm dating my friends and I'm dating myself exactly, boy baby, Oh yeah hell yeah yeah. Situationships have covered it. Yeah, we have covered it, I think, and I think there was. There's lots of things to learn from it, but also still learning. I'm still learning. But set I think set boundaries with yourself and with other people, including your friendships. Like once a friendship as well crosses a boundary, don't look back absolutely if you like I know how I see. It's like, if you wouldn't let your friend treat you like this, don't let someone that you're romantically involved treat you like that either. If you wouldn't let your boss treat you like that, even if you want to make it even more strict for yourself, like maybe you're a bit of a pushover like I am. Yeah, Well it's hard because I'm gemma and I were both sorry'm earning chocolate. Um, we're both. We always say yes to helping people. That is our downfall. It's a huge downfall. We've gotten ourselves into a lot of trouble doing that, I think, and for giving people when we should. There's definitely people you should and it's good to have conversations with them, and sometimes you know, it's but worth being in a while we're doing we do too much, you do too much for other people. Yeah, and I guess this is kind of also what we want to talk about, doing the emotional labor for us. Yeah, thanks, that's smooth too. Emotional labor, Yeah, emotional labor and something especially for men, especially for men, And we'll talk about that when we get back. So, I think a big pitfall a lot of women in their twenties fall into is like doing the emotional labor for men and women, but mainly men in their lives. I've had that happened to me, so many times friends lovers feels me to say that after lovers scratch that, but you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely, And how do you kind of see it because you brought this up with me? Yeah, well, I wouldn't say that in my teenage years. So obviously I moved to Canberra when I was eighteen. I wouldn't say that I did much emotional labor when I was in high school or anything. Yeah, who could know exactly, and like to preface that like I would like, obviously, I grew up with an amazing family, huge privilege to have such like a stable home life and all of that. Um, and so I never really had to do any of this sort of like emotional labor. And then coming to UNI and college. Um, I think I've always been a bit like a bit more of my cancer. That's my star sign of a bit the cancer's emotional. What else I actually don't know. I don't really follow astrology. That I only follow astrology to like tell that to economic guy as Freddie as a cancer very gentle. Yeah, well, because I just see it on tiktoks of what the cancer is. And but I only keep up to date because I like to go on like when I go on dates and I'll be like, oh, you study economics and like cryptocurrency. Oh, I like something similar in astrology, you know, but pieces and cancers are both water signs. Yeah, well apparently it's the water sign. Is that means you're yeah, you're wearing your neptune jumper at the moment, which is really appropriate for your water. So I do like this jumper and you're a big beach baby. I think as well, except I get some burnt, but that's okay anyway, So emotional labor um and I think what I came to UNI, and like I grew up. I've got two brothers, so I I have a lot of male friends. Pick me go out. No, I'm like, generally I just have a girl a lot of I just have a lot of male friends. Even in high school, some of my closest mates have always been guys. And I think that's I've got a brother who's really close an age to me, So makes sense, makes sense. Um, I love foodie, no, no, no jokes anyways that I have noticed that as a result, particularly when it's my male friends that are single, Um, I just somehow they don't have a girlfriend or a boyfriend to do it for them. I seem to become not a mum. I wouldn't say I become a mum. I'm definitely not the mom friend. I become sort of this this person that is always going to be there to give advice and support sister. Yeah, like, well I am. I am the elder sister that makes problem. I become this sort of like person for all my guy friends, not just guys, even even female friends, to be honest, but just like and I'm just giving so much. And that was I think when we when we bonded, like Grandma last year or whatever, definitely over that sort of topic house, I am doing too much, you were doing you still do too much. And I find this as well, like this is kind of inappropriate. And if an employer ever listens to this, like, I'm sure they're probably gonna fire me. But I don't know, live a little like I used to always say, I felt like a psychologist and like a prostitute in one like I would. It was especially with guys that I was like sleeping with where I couldn't quite figure out what they wanted for me. And I remember like I would go over to their rooms and I would just spend like the whole night just like talking them through their childhood trauma, talking them through their actually and this falls into the situationship territory as well. Yeah, it's like, okay, so I'm really like this takes energy out of me. And that's a big thing to realize. When you offer someone so much of your advice, so much of your space, your time, your words, like, it really takes things away from you, and it leaves you mentally exhausted. It does, And I like, I have like incredible friendships with all these people. That's not just quickly We're not to say that, like please come to us, but also I like, I love I love caring for my friends, like I love languages. I'm acts of services. I love doing acts of service for other people, and I feel like yours is also words of affirmation. Is that it yeah, okay, words of affirmation and acts of service like, and I do genuinely enjoy doing like things for other people. But it definitely does get to a point that when you when you're you yourself are struggling, and then I mean I've definitely felt that when I've been struggling, I felt incredibly alone. You wish someone would do what you would do for them. Is that kind of feeling, because I think I'm the type of person that will hold it very deep inside and then I just lose it in my brain, in my brain, and it's usually my family that then has to cop the consequences and they're like, but but now you're telling us that all these tiny, ten little things have built up into this and I'm like, yes, oh my god, I left it all the way you lug in. That was Woud's open exactly. And that's because I think I like get you take on a lot. It's like your mum the other day when we were writing that job application for you and one of the criterias like works well under pressure, and then you told your mom and your mom was like, hell no, because my mom is the one yeah no, and she's And that's the thing, like, if you don't have a like, I really want to drill into this emotional labor thing because I feel like it is a massive concept where it's like boundaries do really because of the patriarchy. Yeah, And I feel like you end up adopting I found so many times I end up adopting a maternal role where I'm like, I'm here to comfort you, I'm here to support you, I'm here to help you through everything, and I'll willingly enter that role not expecting anything back. But I think and like, deep inside, you know that they won't even give it back to you. They won't ever provide that service to you, even if you wanted it, because that's your role, that's your function. Especially as women who have their lives together, not that we have them completely together, like not at all, but women who are emotionally mature. It's like people seek you out, realize that you have that kind of your reasons something from me, and they see your weak spot. They're like, I know that if I just play the sad person in this situation, or like if I just show them even the tiniest bit of you know, the things I'm going through, their empathy bone is just going to light up and they'll just they're just knee jerk reaction is just to care for you, to take you under their wing, and it just it kind of makes me a little bit annoyed. Sometimes it makes me very annoyed. I mean, yeah, very annoyed. Like I'm having this situation with someone at the moment and I'm just like, what do you want from me right now? Like why am I here? And it just becomes so obvious that the only reason they talk to me is because they need me to provide them with emotional support. And it's so exhausted. It's not even just emotional support, it's it's being asked to do things like driving them somewhere click of the half, and it's and little things like that. I'm happy to do it. There was a time at college that I used to edit people's papers for them, and for free, for free, when you have your own stuff going on. Yeah, you used to give too much, Phoebe. I know your heart's too big. I could have made so much bank that time year, but no, I edited people's papers. You could have had free time exactly. I actually like editing people's stuff, but I should have, you know, but what part do you like more? Do you like that you're doing something for someone? I'm like called out. I know I'm not trying to call you out, but it's like worth like really analyzing, like what kind of it is? Because there is an incentive to do it. You wouldn't be doing it if you were being forced against your will. But it's like, what kind of incentive is that? But I really do see it, and I see it with so many of my female friends, and I think it's an important disclaimer. I think I've gotten very good all the people who I would any person in my life right now would willingly drop everything and help them out, because I also know that they would do that back for me. It's not a transactional relationship, absolutely, and I think I'm in a similar boat where it's spin almost four years of too much. Now I'm like, well, if you're if you're somebody that's receiving this service, I guess from me, that's because I know you're doing return. Yeah, And it's like important to recognize that. And it kind of leads back into our boundaries conversation how much are you going to are you willing to give to people? And how much do you want to be a yes person? Because being a yes person gets you in trouble, Like I don't know, in the last six months of fun things too get Yeah, it does. But then it's like if you say yes to everything and disclaim it, it's yes to certain things. I mean in terms of career opportunities to say yes to everything, Yeah, every single opportunity to get say yes to it. In terms of doing too much for other people, sometimes it's good to say no. Yeah, And I think sometimes we both don't say no when we really want to. Like how many times have you found that in the past couple of months where you're in a situation You're like, I really don't want to be here and here you are. Yeah, that was me last I'm not going to say that, but I've had that recently, and I think it links back to remember when one of the first things we talked about psychologically was like this high integrated and low integrated complexity. Good segue. It was a good segue, wasn't it, Because it's really I want me to explain it. Yeah, jem is going to explain it because I sometimes we'll have a conversation and I'll go, what's that thing again that you and it's this because it really applies to Phoebe in a nutshell. So okay, okay. So there's this concept and it's in psychology, and it's low integrative and high integrative complexity, and it's these ways of viewing the world, and it's often associated with things like your political views as an example, but also just your general perspective, way of applying things to the world, way of interacting with the world. So people with low integrated complexity see things as very black or white, good or bad, you know, evil or angel I don't know, very like it's very this or that. So, for example, you know, the war in Iraqa is like a really good example of this. People who supported that, you know, they saw people in Iraq as terrorists, which isn't true, but they saw them as that, and they were really able to be like, they're bad guys, we're good guys, therefore we can invade. Whereas people with high integrative complexity, they're often a lot more intelligent. Yeah, I know, right, it's just leading into compliments, often a lot more. It is a date I tell yeah, I know, I want to Can I sleep problem? But keep going with the definition. Yeah, So people with high integrative complexity lot and more creative. They think about things in a nuanced way. So if you have a dilemma save a friend, you're not going to think or someone wrongs, You're not going to be like, they did this, therefore they're bad. Because anyone who does this is bad. You're going to be like oh, this person did this thing to me. Okay, let me think about it from their perspective, let me think about different interpretations. Let me pull this apart and analyze it from various perspectives. I want to problem solve this, like your brain refused to see things in this just like dichotomy of different categories, so high integrative complexity. It's people who it's very difficult for them to make decisions around things. Does that sound familiar? I do feel a little bit cool out, but yes, but I gave you so many compliments true, true, too, true, and now now they had of hits like I love you, but I love you but yeah, that was really nice. But yeah. So it's like they find it really hard to make decisions. They find it very easy to see the good in people, which kind of leads back to that like people pleasing yes person type idea, because if you see everything from every single perspective, if you just tear ideas apart until they are their bones, you get to them be selective about how you get to view a situation, so in terms of the war and around because it's a really good example of people who have low integrative and high integrative complexity you might see this war and you might be like, yeah, but how can this what contributed to this? Like is there any possibility that we're actually the bad guys? Because isn't the things that we're upset about the same things that we're doing to them like this, that that, And then you get to really create a more nuanced and complex view. And I think Phoebe has high integrative complexity. That is, like I have to permit one of the highest compliments, not that either is better than the other, but like a huge compliment compliment. I feel like one is well do you need both in the world? And I really appreciate Jema saying that because it almost confirms that I'm studying. So I study. I study environmental science and international relations. But we forget about I forgot that you stay, We forget I study that one um And in my environment degree, I do a lot of systems dynamics, which is that idea you can create these systems diagrams where you can connect. So for example, I did I did a project recently on climate change in health. I read this paper, yes, um and about how climate change impacts health and for some people like well, I guess, so I guess. I guess a warming climate is going to why affect about some of the reasons. Okay, well there's three the three categories. There's like direct reason, there's a flood from climate change. You die, Oh that got really curiously. The second level is like um, like through um diseases, like affectiblen diseases. There's going to be an increase of malaria in Australia due to rising temperatures. So why why because oh, because the climate is changing. Yeah. Yeah, they like it hot, they like it hot, and the mosquitoes are going to be coming right to Australia carrying that malaria. And the third one is like mental health, so you'd go, oh, how's how's like mental health or socioeconomic as well. You could say there's going to be higher rates of domestic violence as a result of climate change because rising temperatures can cause a natural disaster and a drought, and that causes mental stress, and that causes partners to lash out onto each other. And it doesn't I don't think it causes it triggers it. No, yeah, it triggers it. And so you can create these system diagrams where you can connect the political to the social to the economic, and you can go into these subcategories of each and you can figure out which variables affecting what. And I don't know, I find that fascinating. Yeah, I find it really And this is kind integrated complexity. Because I said, when me and Phoebe first became friends, we used to do lots of study together. I don't remember you would your approach to an essay would take you so much longer than anyone else. No, it wouldn't take me longer. I would ponder for like weeks over it. I'd be like, what about this perspective? And then I would write like maybe six different essay like plans, like just plans. I wouldn't even start writing. Then it would be the two days before the essays due, and I we would see each other and then yeah, and then I would smash out like, I think this is just such a skill. You should see her do this. I will say esay in like two days and just like and then I retype it multiple times, and then I realized that I hate it, so I delete it all and then I retype it all again and then boom, dumb perfectionist syndrome. But it's because oh, my God, like, you should just hear it. She was doing this one on fishing once. I've never ever heard someone get so like you just you just got yourself into a rabbit hole. You were like, but then what about this? What about that? Like just context? The essay was about how does um what was it again? It was Sri Lanka, wasn't Yeah, the polk straight and how a decrease in fish like over fishing in the polk straight is causing violence, but it's creating like a like a cycle of violence. Yeah, anyway, between Sri Lanka, if anyone wants that essay, they can reach out to me and I will send it to them. I'll drop her instant in there in the description and you can hit her up because it was really good. I read it. It It was really good. And then remember I went home and I was getting YouTube video recommendations and I was like, God, the algorithm is knows it does We were in close proximity. But yeah, so what are your thoughts on high integrative complexity? And well, I think you have it, Okay, I want to know other downfalls to it? Yeah? Absolutely, Like so normally people would be like, oh low, especially we exist in a pretty you and I like in a pretty elitist society. Remember it is highly elite, absolutely, and I comes from such a privileged background, to such a privileged background, and everyone here is I would say, the ah, I know a few people who I would. It's like funny because when you start studying psychology, you begin like doing these things where you just like categorize everyone into these It's pretty dangerous because you probably shouldn't do that, but you know, you see these patterns of behavior and like traits that people have, and you're like low integrative, high integrative, like you apply these different concepts to them. So I do definitely recognize people in my life who are low integrative. And Phoebe did say, like, low integrative doesn't necessarily mean negative, absolutely not. It just means low levels of abstraction. So high levels of abstraction. Firstly, if you have high integrative complexity, more likely to have a higher iq UM. So congrats on that one. Well, sometimes it doesn't show through. I'm sure I could think of any absensible that's when I'm like, gosh, she's in a low integrated sy moment. But a downside is also you're more likely to have greater levels of anxiety. Oh yeah, bingo, fingo, smack bang bingo, and think about it, because it's like, if you get a problem, it would be so easy. I wish I could be the person who's like, I know the answer to this, because I have these very clear categories of what's right and what's wrong and what's this and what's that in my mind. But if you do have that high integrative those those categories are not clear, which leads to significant overthinking and can lead to like pretty bad anxiety. I think it's harder to the dots on problems that don't need to be connected. Yeah, oh yeah, oh absolutely, And I'm sure do you find this heaps with like environl like you do a lot about like climate change. Yes, it would be pretty scary being someone with high integrative and approaching issues that are just by nature incredibly complex. We kid problems, We kid problems and you talk about them. Do you ever get like really bad climate anxiety. It's hard because I personally like I do, but I don't. I because like with climate change, I'm going to be lucky, Like I'm I'm very very privileged, and that's just like the luck of the drove of where I was born, um and the family I was born into and all of that. It's gonna be in the country. It's gonna yeah, in the country, but it's going to be the people who are low socioeconomic uma, los socio economic, rural, rural, people of color, Indigenous people. It's gonna be those people that are going to be hit the heart artist. And so I feel climate and anxiety for other people, maybe not for myself so much. Isn't it crazy? Like didn't Just recently there was like a us UN report that Australia is like the lowest yeah, And I'm like, Okay, here's the thing. Yes, we have significant impacts of climate change. Like I lived through the bush fires a couple of years ago. Like we were in that wasn't like two years ago. Yeah, we were like stuck in Bateman's Bay, like literally on the doorstep of one of the biggest bush fires in Australia. The consequences of climate change in this country are very apparent, exactly. And I think one of the reasons why I'm interested in climate change is because it like so I'm interested in the social side of it, maybe the socioeconomic side of it, And because it's not just an environmental issue. It's like I remember in my first year of UNI, we did this diagram, like you can construct so many different sort of diagrams of it, but it had it had social and a little like a circle in the middle, had economic handly outside then it had environment. And it's like, if you affect the environment, you affect everything. You affect every single aspect of your life. You affect the political, you you impact the social and the economic, like if you like obviously it depends on the problem, but like if you affect the social, it kind of can only sometimes will only affect the social. Yeah, if you affect the example of that, Ah, oh, I don't know. You put me in the spot, but sorry, yeah, it's it's I don't know. I think that's why I'm interested in because it has such a consequence on all these other facets of people's lives. Yeah, And I think the big thing is like in Australia, you know, we're contributing so much, but it's going to be creating problems for those our governments quite frankly doesn't care about Like and how what do you mean you didn't say that? Oh, sorry, it's not Peebe saying it, it's me. Yeah, Like there are just certain populations that our government neglects. It's really like indigenous groups being a primarily one primary one absolutely, but it's not just them. It's like, you know, climate change is like the best collective action problem there is, because the worst the best in terms of like it's the perfect example of exactly the issue whereby like we contribute to the problem because we want the benefits of coal and shit like that. And then we could do a whole another episode in this because we want a tangent. We can come back to this another day we'll do We'll do a climate anxiety and what we could do a group one with like me and Aaron and some of the Envirol girls. I feel like I need you guys to talk about it more because I just have very like we're going to come back to political ideas, and I think we need to talk about your time in these some of these communities in Tenant Creek, so um Tenant Creek. We kind of brought it up before, but I think it's been a huge it was a huge kind of turning point for you and very rarely do you have those where you're like, oh, this is a moment that I need to take a hold of, recognize and this will be impacting me for years to come. So how did you end up in Tennant Creek? Yeah? So I'm not going to go too much into detail work because of my work, but I'm really fortunate to have a job in the public service that allow me to travel, um which it travels to on a topic that I'm interested in and social social issue environment which is social. So I was really fortunate I got to do a work trip pretty early on in my job to Tennant Creek. Yeah, and middle of nowhere. Came back with a lot of thoughts to my friends. We had a great chat about it when you get Yeah. Yeah, so for context, Tennant Creeks might bang in the middle of Norman territory. I had never been there. I'm from Adelaide originally MM lived in Camp Railad. Yeah, that's pretty much it. And what did you find when you went there? Because you were going there for work, but you came back with like it was insane? Yeah, And I think anyone, I think anyone that would travel to remote locations in Australia Regional Victoria, Regional New South Wales so for context, I'm I'm interested in rural regional issues. Like that's I'm not a city girl. All my friends are telling me they're like wanting to move to Sydney or Melbourne. I can't think of anything worse out I don't. I can't think of anything worse. I want to My dream is to move to a farm in New Zealand, in the middle of nowhere with a hot farmer. Oh, Phoebe wants a farmer. So I'm not to farm. One's a wife, okay, and um yeah, and so Tennant Creek is one of the most has really high rates of violence, has really high rates of sexual assault. Yeah yeah, including towards children. Um. It also has a really sad history. It's in the Northern Territory. We'll say, like I would like to say, like, you know, my respect to the traditional owners that I got to they welcome me onto their land or among you people. And but as a result it has got this really sad colonial history with the stolen generation and like I'm not indigenous. I don't want to speak too much on that, um, but it was so I've traveled to develop like I mean the term some people like academics uses developing countries, and I've traveled to places like that, and I would say that some of the standards of living in rural like remote Australia or worse than in places where we have a foreign like foreign aid budget too. Really yeah, it was it was just it was really it was quite upsetting. Um yeah, but you came back and you kind of just had this new vigor like what what did it kind of teach you about what you wanted to do in the future. Yeah. So I think I mean, growing up family full of doctors, they've I mean a family full of doctors that are all like public health physicians, so they're not they're not you know, your surgeons or anything. But um uh sort of came back knowing that, Like I mean, my mum always says, my parents, my mom and dad always says to me that, like, you're not put on this earth to make money, and they're like, you put on this earth to make this earth a better place for other people. And I know because it is bloody angels, and so I really like them saying that because it has made me go. I don't think I'd feel fulfilled if I was doing something that was only serving the purpose of making money and so going to Tennant Creek with all the problems that Tennant Creek has, I'm sure you can google it and the Barclays a whole um because that place is beautiful, beautiful people, beautiful environment. There's a lot of hope, there's a lot of hope for the future. And I mean, I'm such an outsider, Like I'm such a clear outsider. I was basically a tourist. But it's good you can recognize that sort of suggesting you're an expert. No, I have no clue how to you know, do solve these incredibly complex problems. But it has made me go like I will not be happy in my life if I don't work on something that I feel like I'm doing good for the world. That sounds so like savior of me. But I think your intentions are incredibly pure, and it's just that you've found this thing that you've been like, well, this is this is it? Like this is something that is the fact that you know, these areas aren't prioritized, the fact that no one seems to care because Australia is such like I'm just gonna say very lonely, Australia is incredibly racist. Yeah, it is the colonial history of Australia, and um, how we treat anyone that's not white is disgusting. Like I'm I'm I'm a white person whatever, like that's who I that's who I am. But I have people in my family that are migrants that are not white, and I have have you know, I've like it's it's so obviously, so easy to see. It's so easy to see, Like you don't have to be you don't have to that doesn't have to be your lived experience to appreciate that it's someone else's Like, that's empathy. Yeah, it's basic empathy being like and that's the thing I don't understand. It's like a lot of people I've met people like Australia isn't racist, Like I've never seen it. It's like look closer, which really look closer, and like, obviously I have no lived experience of racism, but it was pretty damn obvious to me. The Tenant Creek is living the people living in Tennant Creek are living a very very different Australia to the Australia that I grew up in. Wow, and what did that kind of So you've kind of mentioned what that made you think about for the future. But like in five years time, do you see yourself because you apply for a job in Tennant Creek, you came back home. Yeah, yeah I didn't. I've removed it. Yeah, oh I'm gonna do I'm gonna do it honors next yearn oh yeah yeah, but she but it was yeah, sorry not to out you, but like you kind of came back and I'm like, yeah, this is what I want to do. Like any help I can be just by listening, just by knowing the systems, like I'll do it. And I think there's a there's a there's a I have. I think you've got to use like your privilege for good. Like I I went into an amazing school, I have an amazing family. I hate, got to do any extra crewker activity I ever wanted to do, got to go to an amazing university. I'm financially supported, I'm financially stable, like I'm a white woman. I should use this power, like I guess you could call it a power for good. I mean, in terms of the Climate change staff, I find that it's I will be somebody from like a conservative background. It's more likely to listen to me, yea than someone else, somebody else that doesn't have the privileges that I have and that they don't respect. They don't respect that person and they're never going to listen to them or change their mind. But I have a higher chance of being able to yeah, yeah, facilitate a conversation because they're not going to walk on with prejudice exactly, like, oh, you're one of the us. Like there's in groups and out groups all over Australia and you just have to look for them. And I think as well, there's like a clear lack of communication channels between different community groups around Australia wherever that that be regional areas or whatever, and trying to understand how government works or how does how does the power system work? How does who's in power and Australia work. So I think, because I come from this background, I understand how these systems work. We've navigated them because we didn't have trouble navigating exactly. So I feel like it's I almost feel like I should make space by like taking a step back, but creating a space a communication channel for yeah, people I don't know, Like I don't want this to come off as like it doesn't think it's sort of like white savior or whatever, because you see you're very aware, like you know, you know that where you've come from. But I want to, like I want to use my skills for goods, like the education that I got, Like I might as well do something that's like doesn't just benefit like myself white people in Australia, for every future generation. But yeah, five years time and you're doing honors next year like so many year, Yeah honors. That should be cool if I can get that sort of any words of wisdom before we say goodbye. I asked Peate this question. I think it really does for a conversation. But like the biggest lesson you've learned last year? What has it been in your in your second year of your twenties? Okay, um, I feel like I'm still learning. So it's you could ask me this question every single week and it'd probably different answer depending on like what Isn't that the best part though? It's like every every week there's a new lesson to kind of be learned from the situation's life throws at you. I think in your twenties you have to you have like oh, it's hard. Oh it's okay. This is like a response that is like what it's like? Yeah, I know, it's like, um, I was gonna say, like in your twenties. I thought you're gonna say, in your twenties, should say yes, And then we've talked about how you shouldn't say yes. Well, because okay, So I think everything to sum up the conclusion conclusion of this podcast, including remarks concluding remarks situationships terrible, set your boundaries, set your boundaries of friends, because that also includes protecting yourself from doing emotional labor that is unnecessary, which we talked about. Emotional labor is fine if it's reciprocated and if you know where you stand and you also should What else will be spoken about high integrated, low integratate if we talked about something exactly, but big psychological concepts. I think the main thing is just like, look after yourself. Is that your lesson? Yeah? I mean I'm terrible at it, but um, look after yourself. Know what you want out of life, and if you figure out what you want out of life, go get it, go get it. Amazing words to That's the thing, isn't it? Like? Because I am so lucky to have had such a supportive family that have told me to just go get whatever I want, Like, yeah, you can do it, you deserve it, like you just learn good things in your life. Exactly, well, amazing, very starring words from feeding You. I'm so sorry for such a chaotic podcast. Trust me, when we listen back to it, it's going to sound smooth as long. Okay, Well, thank you so much for coming on and for devoting your Friday night and snacks for us to talk about these things. I hope you guys have enjoyed our wisdom. It's a bit of a ramble, but that's the point of these episodes. If you don't like it, you don't have to listen. So there's my kind words for you, and Len I'll meet you. Yeah, Phoebe is a great friend, and I'm so glad she said yes. So I hope you got something out of it. And we'll see you next week where we're going to talk about the psychology of social anxiety. I'm keen to tune in for someone. Bye.

The Psychology of your 20s

A podcast that explains how everything is psychology. Even your 20s. Each Tuesday and Friday we deep 
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