In this episode we are joined by clinical psychologist and author of 'The Defining Decade' to talk about all the frustrations, stressors, misconceptions and hard moments of our 20s and why it's only going to get BETTER from here. We talk about:
Listen now to hear all of Dr Meg's amazing advice and hear a bit about her new book, coming out next month.
Link to The Defining Decade: https://www.amazon.com.au/Defining-Decade-Meg-Jay/dp/0446561754
Pre-order Meg's new book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Twentysomething-Treatment/Meg-Jay/9781668012291
Follow Jemma here: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast here: @thatpsychologypodcast
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what.
They mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here. Back for another episode, back for another topic, and today, back for another guest episode. I love doing these every now and again, and I'm super selective with the people that I bring on because I want them to really have something to say about the twenty something experience, about what it means to be, you know, growing up during this time and at this age and during this decade. And I feel like one of the main experiences a lot of us have, one of the universal twenty something experiences, is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost. And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken a lot about this, who has written numerous books about this experience. Dr Meg Jay. Thank you so much for joining us.
It's my pleasure. Jima, I'm so glad to be here.
So if you don't know who make is, you've definitely heard of her work. She is the author of The Defining Decade, one of my all time favorite pieces of nonfiction.
Thank you. Yeah, So I am a development While I was saying, I love the title of your podcast, because that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and I specialize in twenty somethings, which is a thing. It wasn't a thing twenty years ago when I started, which we could discuss that later too, But you know, it's a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges, its own unique solutions, and so that's what you know, all my days and all my books are about.
So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people in their twenties? I think it was a natural inclination for me. I started this podcast as someone in their twenties. I'm still in my twenties. What was the fascination for you with this, with this decade?
Yeah, so, I believe it or not. I have been specializing in twenty somethings for twenty five years, so maybe for like, roughly your full life so far. And so when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in clinical psychology, and I was studying something called adult development. And when you say that to people, they're like, what's adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And you know, adult development is if you look at a twenty year old and you look at a hundred year old. Adult development is all the stuff that happens from twenty to one hundred. But when I started studying adult development, most of what was done there is about you know, midlife crises or you know, the elderly, or you know, maybe it was you know, the child rearing years. But there really hadn't been much of anything done on the twenties. And we can talk about this more in a minute, but it had been somewhat recent that the twenties were sort of their own developmental moment. That I mean, they're really, if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years. They're not that like the thirty something years and beyond. They're really their own thing. So I was sort of discovering this, along with a lot of research about all the amazing developmental things that are happening in our twenties. There's more change between twenty and thirty than any other decade in adulthoods and I was living in a college town, right, so I was inundated with young adults and twenty somethings who were sort of, you know, my first clients in guinea pigs and all this. So it just and I had just finished my twenties, so it just felt like there was so much there. It was really where all the action is, and no one was focusing specifically on that space. And one of the ways I figured that out was a lot of people would come to my office and ask the same questions. I would tell them the same things, and I thought, you know, I need to be able to recommend a book for people. So I went into the bookstore looking for something back when people did that, and there was nothing. It was like the girlfriend's got dear twenties, you know, maybe there was just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow, this is you know, an untapped need that there's this period of time which is very unique and people aren't really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it. So I started doing that and I have never looked back. I've never wanted to do anything else. It is just, to me, the most important decade of life. It's also super difficult, which we can talk about. But I love it.
It's so funny. You was saying, like you've been doing this for twenty five years. It's like your career is a twenty something year old.
Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, it's all about it's all about that decade, one way or the other.
So you said something in there and you were like, it's the most formative decade, which I really agree, but it's also the most difficult. Like we it really exists in this vacuum between adolescents and what I sometimes refer to as like real adulthood, like in your thirties, when all the things that you thought, you know, you would experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying a home, they kind of for a lot of us are happening a lot later. What do you think creates this real difficulty for a lot of us during this period.
Well, it's really that is that you know, you're absolutely right, adult milestones are now you know, in about adult milestones, I mean, you know, figuring out your job and finding a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home, maybe having a kid, like that's all sort of thirty than to twenty now, and so in the twenties, it's just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a lot more to sort of worry about than there is to hold on to. The brain doesn't like that, so your mental health does not like that, and so it makes the twenties. You know, from where I'm standing, it's an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made all their biggest decisions and to help them do that more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the other side of the room. The twenty something that I'm work with is living with more uncertainty than they will really at any other time of life. And that's what makes the twenties so hard, is that it's probably the only time of life where you'll wake up in the morning and you'd think, gosh, you know, I don't really know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's gonna love me, or if I could pay my bills, or where I'm going to work, or if I could be happy. And that's really really hard. And I don't think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is.
Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that this uncertainty is so scary for us? Like, how does that manifest in maybe our behavior is even now mental health the patents that you see in twenty somethings.
Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But but the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you don't know what's around in the corner, you're going to assume, you know, it's a beyor not, you know, it's a little bunny rabbit, and things are fine. That's how we survive that. Your brain is wired to keep you alive, not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stressed. We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or you know, whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around. Yikes, I don't know what's about to happen in my life. So it's not something the brain likes very much. But in the twenty first century, it's this sort of staggering amount of uncertainty that twenty somethings live with I mean they live with it day in and day out for five, ten, fifteen years, and so that really takes a toll on people's well being, on their mental health. Life does get better, and we can talk about that too, But the twenties are tough, and I think we kind of maybe imagine are told that they're going to be this, you know, best years of our lives, but they're probably not, and you don't even want them to be. You want life to get better as you go.
I say that a lot. Actually, I was saying it to someone before. Our twenties are when you have been probably the least amount of money you will ever be making, right. Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels so uncertain, you'll probably quite emotionally vulnerable. You don't probably like your job that much, and there is such an expectation of like, these are your best years. These are like you better like really hold on to them because once they're going, like they're going to be the source of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like, is that really as good as it's going to be?
I mean, let's hope not. No. I mean that's what I say to my clients. If your twenties turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong, because empirically we know that. Actually it may be hard to imagine as a twenty something, but life does get thirty somethings or happier than twenty somethings, And even old forty somethings are happier than thirty somethings. Even the fifty somethings are happier. I mean it, Actually, people do become happier, more grounded, Their relationships are better, they have purpose, they have meaning, they have sort of that emotional stability that life security. So life really does get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of myth keeps perpetuating that your twenties are going to be amazing. I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on, but they're very hard and all those things you mentioned of, like you're broke, you're moving to a new city, don't have friends, new jobs, stressful, you know your boss is you know, stressing you out, et cetera. That's real, and you know, the twenties are actually, I think, well for most people, maybe more difficult than they are.
Sometimes that makes me hearing you say that, because I I'm such an optimistic person. Right so, right now, I'm like, my life is like the best it's ever going to be. And so for some reason, when people are like, oh, it gets better at thirty, it gets better at forty, I'm like, but what if it can't get any better, so it has to get worse? Like what if I've got the inverse, like what if this is? What if I'm the exception like it?
But then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I find that hard to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not like just this random growth curve you're on. It gets better because you as a twenty something whatever cool stuff you've built that you're super psyched about. And I'm very happy to hear that you feel like you have a great life. You're going to keep doing that. So you're going to build you know, there'll be more relationships or deeper relationships, or your career is going to just get even better, or your financial security will be better. And I mean that's sort of why it happens, is that people, I mean, there's generally an upward trajectory in life, and of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow, you know, with the big stuff, but you know, in terms of people's individual lives. I mean, I love it if you feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff in your twenties because you're just going to keep building on that.
That's so so reinforcing to hear. The other thing that I that actually a lot of people, this is what I really want to talk about, is like feeling like there is almost it's a bit of a race, and feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's a race to buy a house, it's a race to have it all figured out. Why do you think so many of us feel this sense of just being behind during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like behind what?
Right? Well, that would be my question against clients. Do say but I'm behind, And I say behind?
What?
Behind? Who?
You know?
If you say behind what, there's usually a who, Well, so and so has such and such and I don't have that, Or well my parents had X, Y and Z when they were my age, and I don't have that. So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's comparing themselves to. But kind of the maybe maddening, But a truly wonderful thing about your twenties and beyond is you can't there's just so many different paths. You can't compare. Like when you were in school and everyone was in the same grade and you could compare your biology test with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way. Not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And you know, we've all had different paths through life and are doing different things. So I mean, you really can't compare two different lives, but we do. So Usually when people say that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or some ideal that they had. But you know, a lot of what I do is I like to say that education is an intervention, and so writing books and talking on podcasts you kind of get the real information out there. And you know, I remind people, well, let's look at, you know, the average age of some of these milestones. You know, in the US anyway, average age of marriage is like twenty nine, fir his kid is maybe thirty, home ownership is thirty five, and these are just averages. So the more career driven or educated you are, these things can often happen even later. Because you're spending more time in school. So you know, I think most of the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think they're worried that they will be, because it's these are such long form projects and you can't see, like I'm halfway there. You know that you don't know right that you don't know that you may meet a partner in two years, but you can't really know for sure. So I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to get there.
And it's interesting because I think that at the root of that is again that uncertainty, that instability of like it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like that. In that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information. I know you talk about this in your new book, like there's such an opportunity there to make up your own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong will go wrong because you haven't seen the alternative yet, because do you have no real conception of what it will mean to meet the love of your life maybe tomorrow, to one day wake up and be in your own home and be super happy and not be dealing with work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just feel like, how do we become comfortable with the in between, with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing, where there is a lot of uh yeah, just unknown, a lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel.
Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking. So as you mentioned to have a new book out, most people have read or who are listening to your podcast or probably read The Defining Decade, I've got a new one coming out called The twenty something Treatment, and it's really age specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine, twenty something mental health. And one thing I address is it's been a chapter called how to Think, but it's really about catastrophic thinking. So when you're face with uncertainty, the brain's number one go to is catastrophic thinking. And it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty is danger. Right, It's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be happy, I'm never going to find anyone, I'm never going to make friends. You know what if I die broken alone that it's it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst, and again that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you, but it's you know, that's a lot to a lot of kind of catastrophizing in a ten year period in your twenties. So we really have to work on shifting from that sort of what if mindset, you know, what if I never figure it out? What if my life goes sideways to what is or what else? And we can talk about that, just kind of shifting from fears to facts, or from from fears to flexibility, so that we can, you know, not just kind of stay stuck in the fears of what if stuff never works out?
Yeah, Like, can we talk about it? Because I read so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book, and I was I devout. It was amazing. I was like, oh great, I feel so lucky. But that was the thing that really stood out to me, was this concept of the what is or the what else? Because I have not heard of that before, and it does feel like something that is very like just like one of those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one ever said this? Like shifting it from like because I'm such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm I'm a naturally very anxious person, and I always think like, oh, but what if they don't like me? What if like everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow I wake up and every single member of my family has died in a plain accident. Whatever. It's like always that and I and I have found it very hard to break out of that thinking. Sometimes that feels like once my brain is set or on the worst case scenario, there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this? What else? And what is the Yeah?
Yeah, actually I'll use the example you did it earlier. I mean you weren't quite catastrophizing, but you said, I worry that my life is just going to get worse from here. Yeah, you know when you said that because I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's going to get better, but you you kind of said, well, but what if it gets worse, which is of course what you know, twenty something brain is going to do catastrophizing, So so that's your what if that's the fear? What if my life actually gets worse instead of better? I mean, of course that would be everybody's fear, so shifting to what is is actually kind of what I did with you about that of like, well, let mean, let's look at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually said you've built a pretty good life now in your twenties, right.
Yeah, I know I have. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.
Okay. So the facts are that you have. I don't know all the details of your life and not trying to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast, but it sounds like the facts are you've managed to create something good even in your twenties, which is very challenging. Is that correct?
Yeah? And I just think all those other things like good friends, good family, I've got a long term partner that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything off a little bit.
Okay, So the facts are you did all that. So why would you completely like go sideways in your thirties and like lose the all the sort of the skills and the know how and the work you put into that. Why would that just go away?
It's so interesting because you're saying it to me, and I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain not be able to answer that question. But I think the thing I always come back to is this like sense of fate. This like I think it's like a huge impost syndrome thing that I think a lot of us in our twenties have where it's like, oh, I got all this just because I'm lucky, and luck runs out, so you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather than your own and like rather than think about your own skills and your own effort and your own labor.
Right, So I'm saying I look at your life and a little I know about it so far, and I don't. I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man makes his own luck. So I would assume that most of what you have you've worked for a lot of that, and there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that. So I would assume for the facts, well you're going to you're not going to know less about that in your thirties. You would keep doing that. So that's kind of shifting from Okay, my brain gets going on the fears. But what if I focus on some facts and I give myself credit for what is not what if, But what is the other thing to do? Because sometimes people are like, oh, I don't have any facts, I don't know anything. You know, this is could go either way, and so you think about the what else? So what else could I tell myself? Besides everything is going to go sideways, my life's gonna get worse. I mean, that's well, that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you be saying?
Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same, in which case, speaking from experience, that would be great, or it could get better. And I feel like that's a really nice thought I.
Have, right, So just letting your brain kind of have these play with these different possibilities of Okay, you've got your what ifs, but you've also got your what is and you've got your what else? None of that like I know, I you know, this is not my first rodeo talking to Twist.
On their way.
No, none of that gets rid of the what if. But it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides, like I am sure my life is going to be awful, and like we can't. You know, sometimes clients will say, well, help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that. You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily, your brain needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if I mean it needs to do that. But I will say, as you get older and you have a more grounded sense of the what is it, does it But then you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out, or I've figured this out five times before I can figure it out another couple of times, like that actually does happen. You have more what is.
I really like hearing that I honestly what you said. Then the last point you made of you figure this out a couple of like five or six or whatever twelve times you've already you've done it before that it just becomes like such a skill set rather than feeling that. In our twenties, you know, so many of the big problems of like oh my god, I didn't pay my taxes, or like I don't know what I'm doing. I just got fired, or somebody just broke up with me, or oh, a friend of mine, like I'm feeling lonely. That's a big one, Like I'm feeling lonely. I'm always going to feel this way. It's like the first time that we really truly experienced that, especially because of how many major you know, you talked about adult development, and part of that is like social context, right, you know, you shift from a very structured schooling environment to being on your own and people moving everywhere and work kind of being the center of your life. And I remember to include like a personal story about this. I used to have such a problem with loneliness when I was in my early twenties, when I was younger, and anytime I felt lonely, I was like, oh my god, this feeling is never going to go away. This is my life now. I'm a lonely person. And it was only until probably a few months ago and I was traveling and I was like, oh my god, it happens every time I'm away from home. I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling's never going to go away. That I went back and was like looking through old journals of mine, being like, this is a pretty routine experience for me at this point, Like it's just like on a regular cycle. This is like every six months, I'm having this feeling. Maybe I should learn that actually it does go away. So I really like that, what else? And then also what is like I do have the skill kind of mentality.
Yes, and you know, I mean you said a lot of really important things and they're one is what you were talking about. There are just so many firsts in your twenties. You don't have a lot of what is or data points or you know, maybe you can draw back on, well I got through this at you know, in school or a camp or in sports or whatever. But you know, there's so many firsts. I think people feel like the first time they get laid off, you know their lives are over. But you know after well, here's a factoid for you. Your average tw something's gonna have nine jobs by the age of thirty five. So by the time you're on job, you know, three or four six, you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job. I mean, you know, that's just that's what will happen. Or after you've had your heart broken three times, it still hurts because that's how the attachment system works, but you know you will survive it and you know, maybe even feel better and maybe and meet someone who's better suited for you. So you have more data points as you go along. And that's just one thing that's really hard in your twenties. It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot of data points to say, I see what this is. I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again. But you're accruing those now. So that's sort of what's happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as your brain is learning Okay, I can do this.
I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like, oh my god, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes in my brain, especially the heart break one as well. Love. You just feel it so deeply. I'm sure. I don't know. I'm not in my thirties or forties, but in your twenties, I remember, like it's not that the breakups have gotten easier, it's just that there is a sense of like that that they will end. In a way, it's like, Okay, you know I've done this before. I kind of have like a toolkit almost of like this is how long this is probably gonna last. These this is the first month, this is the second month, this is month six, like this is this is a routine now. Whereas I think, especially like when I was like twenty or twenty one, like that was world ending to me.
Oh, yeah, of course it's been there are yeah.
Been there, done that.
I mean, it's it's I've been there, done that more than once. But you know, I think many twenty somethings don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor to feeling depressed in your twenties. I mean, as would make perfect sense or you know, like a big attachment loss, and so people often feel quite depressed after a breakup. And you know, one thing I work with my clients on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart is working, your attachment system is working. If you really cared about someone and really loved someone and maybe even envisioned to future with them, you should be super sad if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of worried if somebody was like whatever, easy come, easy go after you know what felt like a significant relationship to them. So, you know, some of the struggles that twenty somethings go through, actually a lot of them anxiety at work or sadness after a breakup. This is normal developmental struggle. That actually shows that your brain and your heart are working properly. They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If you're feeling stressed or anxious about work, or you're feeling sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and hope in a lot of ways.
So actually, I want to focus on this a little bit more because there's an example you give in the book, and I'm am I going to spoil it. I don't know, maybe it's up to you for it, go for it. And I've got her name or their name, but because of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now, that is something that I see all the time. And you know, I think it's like sixty five seventy percent of us have a secure attachment style. But by the way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and social media, you would think that all of us are like anxious avoiding it, right, anxious ambivalentus.
Right.
We talk about that a little bit more because it's one of my little secret like pet Peeves, when it comes to like online psychology, that.
I mean, other people diagnosing themselves with that.
Yeah. Yeah, people late, it's.
It's having a moment.
Yes.
I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say, you know, I'm getting to know them, well, I have an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know, not so sure. So so there's a big difference between having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious, or having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure. And I would say that the vast majority of twenty somethings that I work with there, they don't have an insecure attachment style. They're they're in a state of insecurity. So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this is diagnostic and character logical and true of me across all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all ages and stages. No, like, very few twenty somethings of mine would say, yeah, I don't. I'm not secure with friends, I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody, you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way, consistently across time and across situations. Most twenty somethings for reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty. They're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who their friends are, they don't know if somebody likes them, they don't know if this person wants to go out with them, they don't know if this new relationship is going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty. That is not having an insecure attachment style. And I don't love for twenty somethings to you know, diagnose themselves, not just because they're often not accurate, but they can kind of wrap their identities around the sense of abnormality. See, I have an insecure attachment style, and if only I had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship with work or someone would want to be with me. And that's usually not okay. So it's just normal to feel nervous and worried and anxious about whether a new relationship is going to last, or about you know, whether someone's going to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an abnormal attachment style.
Yeah, I really like hearing that. Actually because I feel like there's definitely been points in my life right I've thought that that was who I was, And I really understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts that that is us we deny and we suppress, when actually it might be like the gateway too much more open and better life. So one of the other big things about our twenties, and it's about feeling behind, but it's also about dealing with uncertainty, is like, how do I know that I'm making the right decisions. I feel like we have so many options of career pathways and people we could date, and cities we could live in. Something you talk about in the first book, though, that I think really applies here is this concept of sliding versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little bit more?
Yeah, So, the sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean, I've popularized it putting it in my book, but it's research by Scott Stanley really about living together, but it could apply to anything. But it's this sense of like, do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens, it's convenient, it's gradual. We didn't really think about it, or do we really actively decide this is the right person for me, I want to make this commitment, or this is the right job. I'm going to stay here another year for these very good reasons. And I think a lot of times, we know, what with relationships, whether you're living with someone or even at work, people can kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're already there. Well, it's just easier to stay another year than to imagine starting over again, So I'll just do another year, And so we can sort of slide into living with people, being in relationships with people longer than maybe we should be, staying in jobs longer than maybe it's really serving us, because it's the sort of the easier path. It's just something we can slide into rather than really saying this is you know, given all choices, this would be the best one for me.
So I guess that's leads to my next question is how do we know which one is the best one for us?
Because I feel, well, that is a good question. I actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So in my In my book coming Out you Know any Minute, the twenty something Treatment, I talk about what are called large world problems and large world problems or problems where all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't be modeled. So like if you know, small world problem is you throw dice and you can, you know, bet on the chances of getting a three. You know how likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it. You can even bet some amount to win or lose. Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing a city, or a partner or a roommate, or a college or a job, or how many kids to have. I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model all the options, you can't know all the consequences, so you really you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not amidst you know, known factors. So you know, so many people come to me because they want to know is it right to stay with this person or to break up? Or should I take this job or should I take that job? And there is no I mean, we could talk it to death. You can try to, you know, do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller and get your cards read and you know, but nobody, no one can hack that for you. That it's ultimately really that's what truly a decision is of Okay, I don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best, So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decision. So we kind of try to, you know, make the most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I think you reassess, you know, a year into the job or a year into the relationship, and do a real gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan out for me so far? Am I happy? More happy than unhappy? What should I be? You know, kind of paying attention to and then you decide, well do I sign up for another year of this or do I not?
That's really interestingly, you do a gut check, how do you I like some of those questions you said, like am I happy? Uh? Then I would be without this person, without this job. What are some of the other ways that we can maybe sense dissatisfactional sense that there might there might be time to look for something that's better for us?
Mm hmm. I often ask clients is there something that you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years, or is there something about this relationship that you hope is not the way it is in five years. And if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well then why are we doing it now? How long are we going to do this now? That usually if people look out five years, like oh yeah, I definitely don't want to be in this dead in relationship in five years. Okay, well why are we here now? And how much longer are we going to hang out? Or the same goes for the job, or gosh, I hope my boyfriend and I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in five years, Well, then let's fix it this here.
That's I think about that a lot. I will say I'm in a great relationship. There's no I'm I've done the questions and they've never they've always turned. But I do. In previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to break up with this person, but I don't, but being like, let me just wait six months because I was like delaying the pain. I was delaying the inedible. And then I had a friend say to me and she was like, well, wouldn't you rather be six months into it in six months time rather than starting in six months time.
And she was like, what good for her?
Yeah? I was like, oh wow, Like you're so she's like the time is going to pass anyways, Like you're going to get to the point, Like she's like, you're going to have to break up with this person. It's just whether you start the process now and then in six months time give me like, oh, thank gosh, I've done that already, or whether you wait and you delay it. And it's like it's emotional procrastination where you understand, Yeah, it's like you understand that there's going to be a lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision, So why not just wait? Why not just why not just make that a future you problem? And you don't realize that that future you is going to be there pretty quick.
Like.
Yeah, honestly. And that's like and I feel like it's interesting because I said this to some I always say this on the show, like you can reverse one hundred percent, Like the only decisions you can't reverse the ones that you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like, oh, I guess having children, you can't really reverse that decision.
But well you can always adopt.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like, especially when it comes to career risks and career risks and wanting to move to a new place, wanting to travel, you know, there is so much regret in in action, probably more regret then taking action because at least again we're going to return to what you were saying before, Like when you actually do something about a desire or an urge you have, you're not faced with the what if being what if I'd done that righting right?
And you learn, you learn something. But you know, I think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about. But oftentimes twenty somethings will delay decisions so that they you know, sort of like keep all their options open so they don't make a decision, so nothing is like it's like they're they think they're stopping time. I mean, they're not stopping time. And not making decisions is a decision. So you're deciding, you know, not to break up with that partner, you know, you were sort of not making a decision on it. That's a decision. You were deciding to sink another six months into a relationship that you were sort of done with Yeah, and your friend was right to say, like, shoot, you could be six months through the breakup at this point, so.
Definitely that's good. And I did stay for another six months there I probably should have listened to but you know, well, we absolutely But I like that idea of like you feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time is still pausing, right, You're just.
It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort of being in school is you know, there's no syllabus, there's no I mean, this gets back to am I behind. There's no syllabus, there's no schedule that you have to meet. The grading system is whatever you decide it is depends on your value system and what you're trying to achieve, not what other people are saying you should do or what the person sitting next to you is doing. And you know that means there aren't any right or wrong answers. There are just your answers, which seems kind of like an annoying non answer, but it's actually really liberating when you when you really lean into that of that's you know, I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it right or wrong, or on time or ahead or behind whatever. None of that really exists. It's it's just it's your life, your choices, and you're going to make most of these choices more than once. And I mean even within one relationship that you know may last your whole life. Every day you're choosing how's that relationship going to go today? Or what am I going to work on or what's what conversation am I going to have with my partner to make it better. That we're constantly able to sort of improve the choices that we make.
I like that as well. It's like not just a it's not just one decision, it's an active choice like throughout your life to be there, right to stay there, whether that's a relationship with job, a city. So I've got one final question for.
You, Okay, all right, I'm ready.
Yeah. I don't know that's very anticlimacticve of me, although I do feel like you have a really good answer to this. What do you think of some expectations that we should like go of in our twenties that would make us happier?
You know, I feel like you've done a really good job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel like the biggest expectation that people need to let go of is that their twenties are going to be the best years of their lives. And we talked about this, but they're probably not going to be, and that's really really good news. That's a huge bummer if the best years of your lives or your twenties and then the rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that, it's not probably going to happen, but you know, kind of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your twenties is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because it's a very challenging time. So I would say, bad expectation that everything's going to be great and or you're going to have everything figured out by thirty. I talk a lot, really in both books about there's this cool study I won't get in the weeds about at least it says eighty It says eighty percent of life's most defining moments take place by age thirty five. That is true. However, you know most of those defining moments are you know, happened in fits and starts, so I actually posted something on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture of me at thirty five, pregnant with my first child and getting my PhD, my diploma, and that was thirty five, and I was joking like, oo if I got these two in right under the wire. But when you follow them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know, I started studying to get into grad school, you know, in the middle of my twenties. I bumped into my partner for the first time in my mid twenties, and then met them again in my late twenties, and then we got married after that. So all so, you know, you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're probably going to happen by the time you're thirty five, and some of them may be happening in small pieces now. You just don't know it. So the idea that everything's going to be done by thirty is ridiculous. Don't stress, But you might have started most of these things. You just don't get to see the fruits of your labor quite yet.
Wow. I really like that outlook, and it just makes things feel like very exciting and surprising.
Yeah, life is exciting and surprising and want you want. I mean, I want your twenties to be awesome, but I also want your thirties and forties and fifties to be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork for that, then life really does get better. I mean, why would it not.
What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much for this little little pleasure. Now I want to quickly say, you have just joined Instagram and everything I did. Yeah, and you've done your first little like you've dipped your toes into social media.
I have. I have.
Yeah.
That's it's funny because I was off social media. I mean, to be an author, to be sort of out there, I was off social media more than you would expect. I didn't have an Instagram. I had a very inactive Twitter account. That was it. Whatever. I was just sort of off of it. And I think part of it was I was focused on writing books. You know, I have clients, and you know, I don't know how you feel, but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want to bump into their therapist on social media.
I know. But the same advice that gave you like to everyone right right.
So for me, it was more of you know, I'm gonna kind of you know, lie low and write books and try to reach people that way, which is super important to me because you know, and good therapy is not accessible and affordable not only to everybody, but really not to most people. So part of writing books is about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media has evolved, and as I have been convinced that hello, that is where people get their education and their information and their news now, then if I want to help people, that's where I need to be. Also that I know y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup.
Brain that well, actually.
No, that's not true. But you know now that it feels like obviously this is where a lot of people are getting, you know, good information, or they could be getting better information, and so I wanted to be a part of that of the better information.
I really really like that because I feel like you have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there, and it's nice to have people online who have degrees have like have done research on this stuff to really set the fact straight. So, well, where can people follow you? What's your Instagram name?
Well, I'm Brand News to please come out and full force because I have like two followers, but I'm at doctor meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, pretty much anywhere where people would be. I'm doctor meg Jay is the handle and I've just recently joined. So there's, you know, some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea, especially with the twenty something treatment coming out, is to get the content out because, like you said, there's a lot of misinformation and I would love to you know, kind of get it on that conversation and help people out.
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited and I'm super excited for people to get their hands on your book. I'm going to leave a preyo to link in the description of this episode and a link to The Defining Decade. If you haven't read that book and you are a fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go, so had and.
Yell right exactly.
It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started the podcast, and then I started the show and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned, So I will yeah, I will leave a link to both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share it with a friend if you think that they would enjoy this they would get something out of this conversation. I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion, please feel free to send it to me at that Psychology podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Spake on Instagram for some more behind the scenes content. We will be back next week with another episode. Until then, stay safe and we will see you soon.