Today we’re bringing in a special guest, someone very close to the show and my heart. The wonderful Jack - one of our co-writers and podcast inspos - joins the podcast to talk creative pathways, reflecting on your younger years, our inner child and our concepts for the next greatest Australian novels.
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the very unprofessional podcast whereby we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Today is an exciting episode because it's our fourth installment of our Let's Get Friendly series where I bring on a special guest, someone who's a friend of the show, just to talk through their experiences in their twenties, what they've been, what they've learned so far, big changes and transitions before and after, moment, strength, weaknesses, goals, all of the above. And today I'm bringing on a very special guest, one of our co writers. Actually, he helps out with heaps of my episodes and I draw a lot of inspiration from him. He's an amazing friend. So yeah, we're welcoming Jack today. I hope you guys enjoy the episode. Everyone. This is Jack. Hey, guys, Hey, and gals and gals, Yeah, come on, none of that in here. I'm a bit nervous audience. This is actually this is my first podcasts. It's interesting being on one because I listened to them a lot, and so just navigating this new territory at yeah yeah, really, culture for anyone listening. Yeah, see, see and this and this is what I'm nervous about. I'm nervous about me, me saying things that are going to be held against me, and it's all out of the public, everyone can hear it. So but yeah, no, that's me. I listened to podcasts. Oh yeah, that's the whole identity. I could believe about anything that makes me sound like arrogant, but I don't think i'll have to. I'm just not. Yeah. Yeah, no, beyond the candid, I'll be brutal. This is going to be like one of those really intense interviews that they do on like the New York Times. Yeah, sounds good. That's the tough questions. Yeah. Oh, I don't even know if we have any of those appropriate interview They aren't, they aren't. Yeah. Good, I'm good. I'm good. I'm still warming up to it. I'm still wearing your podcast. Your podcast generally is see you know it's a hard time. Yeah, no, no, to be there anymore. No, No, you make a fair point. You make a fair point. So no, but thank you, thank you for making this special for me. You're welcome. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I'll be gentle. I promise. Also, if you get are in the background, she's making me dinner. That's my house. Sounds good, the show sounds good. She's cooking up the storm. So yeah, a bit of a that was a bit of a segue. We just had a bit of a yarn. But yeah, I want to say thanks for coming on the show, Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's one of my guests. I feel like we've been friends for a while, like a long time. Yeah yeah ages ages all four years, I guess now. Yeah, oh my god, it is weird. Yeah, you know, I was thinking this the other day. We've known each other, well, I've known you my entire adult life. True, true, Sorry, I was just taking a sip of my wine for people listening audibly, which is everyone. Um, I'm a big I'm a big walker when I talk. So I'm walking around with a glass of wine in my room. But oh, are you doing a stroll getting a steps up jet? Exactly exactly. But no, that's that's interesting, right because I I guess I I guess I met you rude before you turn seventeen eighteen eighteen, yeah, when you were seventeen, yeah, turning it. Yeah, I still remember the first time I met you. Actually, oh yeah, I told you, I think because I remember the first time I met you, but you go first. Oh, let's see what our interpretations are. The first time I met you was like second day of B and G orientation. Yeah yeah, and I was with one of my friends and we sat down at a table with you and one of your friends. Um, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, which who I also knew very well. Yeah, but um sat down and I remember I was like the person who was sitting next to me messaged me and was like, wow, they're really cute. And I messaged about being like which one. It's like really funny, love it, love it? Yeah. And then I don't know where we went from there. We just became Oh. And then I remember the first bonding moment where I was like, we're gonna be buddies because we went for like wrong walk yeah yeah, like all around the A and your campus and it was very weak. We did all those yeah yeah we did. Um no, No, that's I like that. It's funny. No, because because mine I think I think it's good that we agree that the first time we saw each other was at the table. But um, but my first impression of you. I remember sitting down when it was you Ali and then Davey sitting next to me, M and I just remember like sitting down for one of those random activities, not really knowing what to expect, and then you guys started talking to us, and you were so like engaging and interesting. I just remember being very like you started talking. You you blonded the time. I remember, um, and you just started kind of talking and talking about yourself and you. I just remember you sounded very interesting, but also you're very interested in what everyone else had to say. Um, it was really cool. So and you were talking about you said. One of the first things you said I think was, um, you mentioned you were studying Russian, and I was like, that is that is cool? That is unique. Yeah. Yeah I did study Russian. I was I was a good Russia. I was the lousiest Russian shooter ever. Yeah. I would never go to any of my shoots because it was all men, yeah right, kind of like and I just remember just being like, and they were like, we should do a study group. Yeah yeah, right, like all men in the Russian cohort. That's bizarre. Yeah, And there was this one lady but she was a mature age student and I just remember this really funny like my Russian shooter hilarious. She was really funny and m but she was definitely like very communist, like yeah, all of the like. And I just remember one time we saw these people doing yoga and she was like, oh, looking out the window, we saw these people doing yoga, and she was like, oh, look, it's like indigenous people dancing. And we were like yeah, no, no, no, no, that's yoga, Like they're doing yoga. And I mean it was because it almost sounds like she I don't know, I don't know what her background is, but she she was studying Russian. Her background. I was just utah, okay, yeah, okay, her backgrounds Russian. Um we hope, we hope yeah, um okay yeah yeah. And she'd always put like, um, lenin and all of her like examples, like we'd be doing like intense grammar, but all of the questions would involve Lenin and like, and her thing she would always say is like learning says to study studies should be like it's like right, right, conjugate this sentence, you know, mother Russia will rule the world. Yeah, well that's nice. So that's how we met. Yes, yeah, yeah, I guess that also explains how you're kind of connected to the show because we've kept up our friendship for many, many years. Yeah, we've done well, We've done really well. We actually have it's really fun memories. Oh let me let me, let me think, let me think. Um, there's a lot, there's definitely a lot. I mean, just recently, I've been joining the walks we've been going on during lockdown, um gem and I've been going up on a few walks through nature and it's it's always fun, I think. I don't know, I'll sound very random and a bit tokenissy here, but it's it's it's very fun kind of adventuring around in the nature. It is. Yeah, And what did we fine? We went on a walk this weekend. I think we had our biggest hall of fight because basically what we do is we go we go off the beaten path. Yeah, you know, you know where individuals aren't we don't. We don't go down the path that everyone else goes down, which is we run with the ruse. Yeah. We was just about to say that we run with the ruse. We disturbed them. We just trashed mountains. No, we don't no exactly exactly, but we went for a walk this weekend. What did you want to tell them what we found our magical spot? Oh yeah, okay, no, this is this is fantastic. So um so so Jemma just decided to take this this kind of detourl We're heading down the mountain and you, I think you just decided to view off left randomly. But we stumbled across this little flat land. It was kind of like a mountain, but it was almost this um this plan kind of extended out from it um and it was really cool because there was this bonfire in the middle surrounded by logs. Um. It kind of felt like we we entered someone's you know, camping spot. Yeah, it was really nice. Yeah, it's really nice. And the boulder. I'm like shocked we found this, Like I don't know, like I don't know. This's just just like amazing to me because it's like a concept that's like very like, um, you know those books used to read when you were a kid of like kids like adventuring and they'd find the hidden treasure. Yeah, yeah, like they'd find something they weren't meant to find. And I felt like they had that moment because we spotted this like boulder and I think you noticed there was like like there's something safe. Yeah, yeah, and we realized we could move the boulder and we opened up and then underneath this like a goon bag like a shovel sausages. It was funny, noo, It's like it was very weird. I don't know why anyone would ever do this, but they seem to dig the hole in their camping spot with a little spade and they'd put goon and cooked sausages in there, and it was all mixing around in the dirt. So I don't understand. Maybe they were trying to hide the garbage. Um, yeah, maybe I can't understand why anyone would return there, take the dirts, dirty sausages out and get cracking with the goon again. I didn't even think about that actually, yeah, because the goon bag was like full. Yeah yeah, no, they hadn't made it in yeah. And then we were like we were like we pinned it on the map, so we'll have to go back there. I still remember how to get there. And like then we found this really cool like dug out like camp thing. Yeah, and we were like Oh, we make like this is where like the guy sleeps, like when he comes up here, like yeah, when it sleeps after retiring from his from his like bonfire. And then we found the gut tire and we Yeah, it was really it was great. Yeah, we're piecing together like little clues were wide and narrative, and we were creating little characters out of these clues, which was I think sounds pretty dorky. It was fun. What were their names again, Oh, Bevon and Devon and I think yeah that's true. Oh god classic. It was like back Mountain but in broke back story. Yeah, literally a camera love story. That was That was a good memory we did find. And then we had a little meditation as well. Yeah, yeah, no that was nice. That was actually was not Yeah no, so gems, gems, Um, I think you've been getting you to meditation recently, haven't you. Yeah, is this a new thing? Yeah, I think it's a new thing. It's like I guess we'll talk about it later. We can talk about it now. I just find it, like I think Lockdown's very stressful and like I was finding it hard to like stay present. Um, you know, so it's like I do like three of these a night and they're so good. It's The app is called Smiling Mind. If anyone wants to download it, it's free. Yeah, And I was like Jack, we should do one like in the middle of nature, no one around us. We should do like a listening one. Yeah, and just like see how we feel, see what we feel and did you did you feel anything? Yeah? I mean, because usually my experience is meditation, I never really feel feel much. Um, this was This is really quite lovely though. I'll give it a little spruit for any potential meditation meditators out there, but it's it was really nice. The whole practice of the meditation was being aware of what you're hearing. And for those who don't know meditation at least the one, this was all out awareness of drawing awareness to what you're feeling, to what you're thinking, toward you fear, toward your hearing, smelling, and were kind of halfway up the mountain and there was really strong wind coming through and at the same time you saw the wind kind of splash across your face and trickle your hair. You could hear all the leaves kind of get pulled in the same direction that you were being thrown. Yeah, so it was I'll sound like a very basic white boy here, but it felt very kind of out one with some of the trees and nature. Yeah, I mean that sounds weird. Yeah, no it doesn't. It doesn't sound weird. It was I had the exact same feeling. I felt like the wind was like tickling me. It was like, really weird. I was like trying not to giggle because I was like, it sounds is so present. Yeah, yeah, really lovely. And I think it was like listening to your conversations as well. It was like the most beautiful experience. I would really recommend it our conversations. Yeah, of course, all the voices in my head. Yeah, it's it's hard having dialogue with you. It's like a yeah, it's like four people speaking. Um. One of my fondest memories actually was um, obviously the pure imagination moment. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, that was. We promise never to tell the story, but just I mean I feel like we should now that we're not going. It's not going to sound as good when we explain it because I feel like it's just okay, okay, it's your podcast. Yeah yeah, sorry, guys, we're teasing them, and but we used to spend so much time in your first year room. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, and you had that that modeling job handing out Link chocolates, oh fantasy. Yeah, that's right. Did you You came and visited, didn't you? No, No, I had. Yeah. So I had this modeling job, um through a modeling agency, and um and um. You know, they gave me pretty glorious job of dressing up as a Link chef chocolate tear just like you see in the advertisements, and standing in the aisles of coals and woolies and handing out samples of chocolates. Um. What that meant was that when they didn't nor get used, I was able to take them home, which meant that I had about I would have been something like two hundred limpballs in my room for oh my god, about a month after it was. It was so good and I don't feel like a bit of a big dog, and you know, hand them out to people. I mean maybe it was a bit patronizing back then. I don't know, No, I wasn't patronizing. I just remember you throw a limpball at me. And it just got to the point where we so many yeah, well because because I was getting sick of eating them because there were so many. So I was like, let me just let me spread the love a little. Everyone can have a limpball. So when you were done with your bounty, he decided to share it. No, no, clearly, I'm very I'm very selfless. No, it was really nice. No, no, but no, no, I speak speaking chocolates. Memory that I've of you gem in first year and even in second year, you would always have a little sweet straw. Oh yeah, so so it would be over at your house, at your apartment after you know, going for a run or just studying down. I would always come up and they're usually a bit of a bit of like an hour or two our call off period where would hang out and um, you just cracker in the sweets. I have a little chocolate beees. It's delicious. Oh yeah, I remember that snaptraw that snare was right, like you know how they say like in America, like the Freshman fifteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that was my freshman fifteen because it was like always, oh my god, it was the best. I'd always wanted one. Yeah yeah, yeah, no, no, what that's the thing about it, It's like, um, it was really fun in first year, first moving away, because you can realize you can do anything your parents didn't want you to do, like you have ice cream for breakfast and get lollies whenever you wanted. Um yeah, yeah, anyway, and you have your money, you have your joy. Yeah, true, true, true. With freedom comes great responsibility. I don't know if that's the quote, but yeah, no, no, no, with yeah, great great power to be an adult, comes great responsibility. Yeah, and I don't think we were very responsible. I remember, like, I have so many fun. This is like it's kind of like a trip down memory, la how we developed into our twenties now, like some of those like those stilly experiences that we have. Yeah, yeah, I kind of tape it off, but oh my god. I just remember my diet was so bad. And I remember I spent my scholarship money on tickets to Europe when I was like manic one day. Oh true, true, the snap trip to Amsterdam. Oh my god, I was silly, but it was fun. It's fun, fun, And I just remember, yeah, spontaneous, it was very spontaneous. Yeah, it was you know, you shouldn't probably do that again. I remember being on like a China Airlines flight, being like am I going to die? Like? I also just have so many fun memories of us watching Louis Thureaux in your room and I would come back from church. So that was a church girl. Yeah yeah, no, no, no, I remember I remember one night we um I know, would often be hanging out and then we'd egg each other on to get some go for the little Markers run and I remember what we came back with a bunch of mark has sat down with a pillow in the middle and then click play on Louis throw um great tentry. Yeah. So yeah, that that was our baby selves. That was true first. I feel like we've come a long way since then. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. What are you up to now? Um? Well, at the moment, let's see, I'll I mean, how do I describe my life put? I'm up to now? Job wise, I'm working for a government relations firm as an analyst, which is fun. I am finishing off my degree and you here and next year I'm moving across to Sydney to live with you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm Kane, I'm Keen. It's gonna be good. You've sold it really well. Actually the same I'm excited. Oh Sydney summer. This is yeah. I mean have I told you my theory before. It's not really a theory. I'm just really excited for it because half the nation has been the lockdown Canberra, Sydney, Melbourne. Um, everyone in Sydney is going to be coming out of lockdown around this summer m The beaches will be open, the bars will be open, and it's it's just gonna be an awesome time because I think everyone's got this pent up social extroverted energy UM, or at least the ones whore extroverts, and it just keen to have a fun time. So I love a good time. Yeah, we're gonna have such a good time. Are you scared? Like, I don't know about you, but I've been super scared of what's going to happen after lockdown? Like am I going to become like, you know, like very introverted because I feel like that's what's happened to me. Fine, yeah yeah, yeah, no, No, that's that's interesting. I don't know, I don't think. I don't think I'm scared of becoming an introvert. I think I'm I'm scared of all the normal responsibility coming back in a way. It's like it's like, at least at least social life has hit a bit of a pause, and so it's really good time to take some time for yourself. But then when when it comes back, you know, there's there's events and things that keep you busy. Um, and I think you're going to miss a bit of me time. So actually, yes, so I think it'd be the same as you. I think I'm scared I'll be I'll at least want to be more introverted than I have to be. Yeah, and I feel like we're both extroverts. So I think it's like kind of scary when you go away from the norm of how you've normally like lived your life. Yeah, I've like like I've adapted so much to being alone that now like the idea of being around people is like quite frightening. So I feel like, yeah, we're gonna have to The Sydney experience is going to be a whirlwind. Yeah, No, for sure, No, because because you don't really a doubt, Like I don't know, at least I found your whole kind of mentality changes around life a little bit. It's not a bad thing. It can be what have you been doing in Lockdown. You've been doing writing as well, which has been very fun for me because I get to read it. Yeah. Well, one of my degree course this year is creative writing, and so I've been doing a bit of creative writing, which has been super fun. Um. It was like I've just kind of gone back into it because I at the start of last year I started doing a bit of screenwriting because you know, it's been a fun. Um. And then yeah, and then I picked up this creative writing course for this semester and I've just been really enjoying it. And then I've also been doing a lot of article writing too, which has been also very very fun. Um. Yeah. Yeah, and thank you for reading them and giving me a feedback. No, you've done You've done a great job. I feel like because you wrote like basically, well, help to contribute to like a whole screen play last year or like a mini series basically. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, it was fun. It was a really good time. It was a really good time. You want to plug it on the show what's it called? Oh? Sure, Well, it's actually that's the thing. I can't really plug it because it's there's nothing out there but me and mate last year through and sorry, actually end the last year started this year through together a few episodes for it was it was the idea we had was it was going to be a little mini web series called shouse Mates. Um and I'm going to sound more like a bit of a basic white boy here because I've written a screenplay about unique kids who's doing uni things and so very relatable you know, um And so yeah, I bet it was just a real I know. It was the first time I really stepped into creativity at all, um and I've just absolutely loved it. But it was really interesting because I found I don't know, I've given a I've been doing a lot more creative things across the last year. It's almost like a found little version of my childhood self. You're in a child. That's a huge YEA. A child is a psychology. I thought it was always like pseudo spiritual. I think it's like new age psychology. It's like, I think it's a huge thing with like psychotherapy and like New Age spirituality of like tapping into your inner child. But it is like a dialogue that sometimes happens when you use dialectical emotional theory or behavioral theory. So it's like what you want to do is start a dialogue with therapist or someone trusted where you just talk about things and it's about like accepting the things that I guess a lot of people's psychological situations come out of stuff that happened to them in childhood, right, Okay, I guess it's a way of like communicating that, and by communicating it, you get back in touch with your inner child and what hurt them and like kind of them. So it's kind of like it it sounds sorry, you go no, No, you go ahead. I was just gonna ask it sounds is it kind of seen through like a trauma or suffering lens at least? Or is it a lot wider than that. No, that's actually a really good question. I haven't actually thought about that. I did often. I think it's more of like a deprivation lens and like a caregiving lens of like what didn't you receive, like getting back in touch with like basic intuition and instincts as well. And I think that's exactly what you're describing. It's like you've learned how to like be creative, and I think creativity is so much associated with having fun and it's about play and especially some of the other things you're doing. Like, oh, Jack, I love you so much. I just think that you've flourished so much. I've had I've had one glass of wine, but I'm there here, Like you've just flourished so much into more of your because you always were creative, always do you always have been in many ways, and I think that you've really flourished into that recently because you've tapped into your intuition and what feels good and for you. It's like you you've produced so many cool things this last year yea d Yeah, but like a psychologist would argue that, like you've kind of shed the boundaries of what you thought you wanted to be, you know when we first entered UNI. Yeah, you're really you're really set on being a politician. Yeah, and I still think you'd be excellent at that, but like you would be amazing. And you had this upbringing of growing up in north West North Beaches, Northern Beaches, yeah yeah, yeah, like nor Sydney Yeah yeah, Sydney Boys School. It's like there's a lot of structure around that and you've been able to break out of it. So like what do you think you're process because I just remember like when I would you could always be manifesting these political aspirations and now you're just doing such a more creative path of acting. Yeah, journalism, So what do you think kind of allowed you to tap into that? Can you notice like a point where that became more present in your life? Yeah? No, no, that's really interesting. Um. I guess to touch on the point of like, how how we've changed since since first year, because do you remember when like it was like two or three weeks ago we're reading the journal entries from our first yourselves? Yeah, um, but yeah I was. I was astounded by how how different I was to the point where you know, I thought I was a bit of a douche. Maybe I was still and we'll think I am in ten years, but yeah, I think, but no, but no, But I guess back to the question, I think the biggest thing for me was I think it was it was kind of happening towards the end of the last year. I went through a bit of a breakup, and I I was quite upset with life in general and quite depressed. It's a bit of a morbid entry into the creative world. But it was for me. It was like I was feeling quite bad on a daily basis, and the saving grace for me, the kind of thought that I really touched myself too in that time was that if I can write about how I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it, and I can give a very honest exposition of my inner world right now, even though it sucks, then that kind of gives up this part of my life a bit of meaning. And so it was I kind of started doing doing free form, like just random stream of consciousness. It was called morning Pages. It's a little technique from that another podcaster Enjoys and Harris Tim Ferris, I know, I know so, but um but no bit. And the technique is you wake up in the morning and you you just free form right for about something like ten minutes and you just get every single thing in your brain out um. And then when you did that, usually wanted to write a lot more um and And I don't know it just it provided me a heaps of comfort, and I started to over time develop a little bit of a passion for that form of expression, and that extended into you know, me wanting to write a bit of the screenplay, do a bit of acting. Um, and I guess journalism as well, and to kind of express something bigger than myself through that. Wow, anyway, hooked the ramble ramble too much. Yeah, that's like I didn't even know that about you. That I didn't know that you were doing that. Maybe you told me and I just wasn't listening, But yeah, I don't. I don't think I taught many people. I don't think it really taught many people. But yeah, well that's incredible. But I feel like that's such a good thing. I think also, like where you were staying, like you came from a point of paying Like all great artists kind of have pain, you know, no one, even happy stories have a deeper meaning or have some kind of contrast to them that is painful to do a suffering So I feel like it actually probably was the perfect time for you. Um. I remember we tried to give painting a go, but yeah, yeah, but that was around the time I was getting into creative things. Yeah, and I think you suggested should we do some painting? M Yeah, that was hilarious. No, because you sat across from me, and you you kind of sat there and and just made this beautiful like landscape piece or from memory ocean, you know, sun um shaw. It was. It was this lovely little beach. It wasn't even a beach, just like a shoreline. Um. And then I just did little scribbles and they ended up looking like a preschool preschool art um not exaggerating, right, it looked terrible. I'm just gonna say, I love you so much, Jack, and you're going to make dearest friends. But it was a piece of shit. It was yeah, yeah, it literally it was like I think it was angle. I just didn't make it. Yeah, it just didn't make sense. But you tapped into what here's the thing though, this is the lesson. You tapped into what was your creative method or avenue or I don't know what it's called, your discipline of creativity. I'm sure the world will come to me. But it's funny you mentioned the journal entries because I think we're both huge journalists. And I'm just gonna say we were to the other night for the audience. We were I don't know why were we doing this one FaceTime with Meg friend of the show, Yeah, and a good friend of the show actually, and we were we somehow ended up reading our journal entries from like when we were eighteen, and it is really insane to see how much you have grown as a person, because I think back then you will really focus just on I hope you don't mind me saying this, but like having the life, like being in a relationship, having a good job, being physically fit. And I'm not saying you don't care about all those things now, but I think now the metrics of how you weigh your success as an individual or how you doing your worth is more to do with things that like individually satisfying and tap until like we've been saying, like that free flowing kind of creative spirit. Whereas some of them, I remember what both of our general entries were pretty embarrassing. Let's be honest, Like, yeah, some of the ones I read, No, that's very that's very cunny to say. I think that's very Yeah, that's a really nice, nice way to put it. But no, yeah, I mean even yours as well. I felt both very different. Um, I think you've I think you've kept the same expressive part of yourself really alive from then. Um, but yeah, this is such a different time, wasn't it. Yeah, Well, it's funny to see how we've it was really I think I think we were both found it very profound. Yeah, and I would so recommend like that technique. I'm Tim Ferris's firstly to excellent advice in the bedroom, Like remember you're telling me about that thing. Um, I think that that's really good advice. Like that's an incredible technique. Not to steal his idea, but like in terms of talking about psychology, like just to go back to your to your point, like the idea of journaling all of your feelings, everything that's in your head. It is almost a form of meditation itself. Did you find that that it was meditative or yeah? Absolutely, no, absolutely, I think I think, Um, I think the way he puts it is you you let the monkey brain out for like ten solid minutes, um. And I think when he says to the monkey brain, he he's articulating the kind of messy, um, fast paced energy of a stressed mind. And it's kind of like the constant anxieties and worries and just just just thoughts. And so I don't know, I find at least when you kind of let those flight gates open, everything is kind of out there on a page. So you, You're provided with a lot more clarity for the rest of the day. And yeah, I guess it was meditative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got it all. I've got it all. Yeah, I have to. I don't know if this is like a good question. I'm just really interested just for like our friends, But like, at what point do you think you kind of turned to being more fiction fiction based than nonfiction, Like I'm guessing at the start you were talking about your feelings had to run the breakup and other things that were going on in your life. When you feel that it turned to something a bit more expressive or a bit more abstract or not so much based in reality, how do you mean that? Sorry, Like, you know, you've been really into the creative writing and creative expression, like, oh, the before lockdown, so I jack it was. I don't sure if you're still in the process of auditioning for acting school. Yes, ye, which I fully support. By the way, I want to have a thank you. Yeah. Well, I think after friends are not rich, so you'll be buying me dinner. Oh my god, it's gonna be like we're gonna have dude, We're gonna have so much creative input next year like just the struggling like creative like journey, and then like the corporate sell out like yeah, yeah, no, it's gonna it's gonna be very interesting, Like you could write a show about that. In fact, I could run another screenplay about my life esque like yes, yeah, yeah, and then we and then we make it to the Hollywood by you know, sending around the screenplay and applying applying for I think that's great. I fucking hope on your day. No, absolutely, no, No, it was a friend, but you know, yeah, no, no, no, for sure, for sure. But I think I think if you'd be a really good person to show, you know, to bring into that world with, I think it'd be cool. You'd have you have some very cool insight and support. Um no, yeah, no, backing school. Yeah. So I will be a playing for it, but I think slim chance of getting in if I get in, which is very slim. I don't. I don't think I'm too keen on it, but I think it's good to keep the options open. Yeah, why why he was keen on it as you previously were. I just I just don't. I just don't think it's the right thing for me now. I think at the moment with work, Like I'm obviously working in politics, there's a certain element of like you have your finger on the pulse um and you'll have very good accents to information through people in certain periods of time, and when you step away from that for a while, it kind of dissipates. And I'm just enjoying the world too much to kind of shut down the opportunity too early. Wow, if that makes sense. Yeah, So what do you think it's changed? Because I feel like we were doing we were practicing intense monologue, Like I just think you're bloody talented, Like we did this one. I remember we were going through all the monologues that you could possibly audition with, and there was that one that we did. You remember what the name was. Yeah, No, it was I can't remember the name, but I remember how it went. It was pretty intense. Yeah, And so I think back then you were really keen on it. Do you think that, like, why were you so keen on acting and back and then do you think it was like something that you felt was unfulfilled And now that you've kind of things have changed, do you realize that actually, yeah, there's other stuff that's out there. Do you think it was yaking with such a drastic change, or like, what do you think it was? Yeah, no, no, I'll give I'll kind of step back a bit and give it a maybe convoluted answer, but I hope it provides me to clarity it for me. For me, it's like the way I've seeing my my brain kind of work across the last year, particularly around these care ambitions and taking risks. There's kind of two sides that I see myself wrestling with. There's there's a very idealistic side that UM gives gives me a lot of credit to be successful. So for example, in the acting domain, when I'm kind of standing and looking down the career path, my idealistic brain will be like this, this is something that makes you very happy when you do it, which which is which is actually quite true and not very idealistic, but it's the idea that if you if you in this industry, then you will be very successful UM, and a certain certainty in that UM. And then a more I guess critical or realistic side of the brain, which I guess takes that with the reality is that it comes with in that Okay, you think you're gonna be very successful. Every person who goes into it will be, um, only only one percent really are. So in terms of weighing how I want to spend the next how all my life to look like, you know, threes and acting school and then you know, maybe maybe getting a few great jobs that I love, but not having a lot of financial stability and regretting not taking a more stable career path would be the one I don't enjoy as much that that's that's the realization I came too. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Does that make sense? Let me let me know if it's to be convoluted. No, no, it made perfect sense. And I think that, like it's actually really interesting hearing that about you as a friend and being like, oh, I didn't understand. That's like how your brain was kind of working in terms of like you kind of having to weigh up. And I guess this is something that we deal with a lot in our twenties, is like, do take the road of passion and yeah, the one which you believe you'll feel fulfilled but perhaps not stable. Yeah, exactly. Everyone listening to this can relate. You know, we all have these aspirations of living in a van or being an artist or being a musician, or doing something that's against the against kind of the stream of life life, but then having to handle those practical limitations of oh I need to eat and yeah, yeah, you know, how much is this struggle really going to be worth for a few moments of like not even glory bit of satisfaction. Yeah. So it's kind of like you've done that equate. It's taking you a few months, I guess, but you've done that that equation in your own time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think there's a lot of Yeah, it's it's it's interesting as well because when you when you're wearing it up, I think there's a lot of emphasis on the individual in our culture, and there's a lot like the obsession with personalities and that sort of thing makes you inclined to believe that you know, you are the you are the one that won't make it, and that sort of thing. Um, but I think, yeah, I think it's I think it's worth, you know, at least wrestling with that with some potential realities. Um yeah, would you call it delusional? Would you call it delusional? Though? Because I feel like, hmm, yeah, it's no, that's interesting that's interesting. I think I think I would call it slightly delusional. But the weirdest thing about it is that if you don't have that, I don't think you'll ever be successful in that field. Yeah, like you really you need to have that conviction. Maybe don't. I don't, but at least the people, the people I've listened to who you know, and watching interviews with that that have done on that, the underlying thing is there is that conviction. So I think I think it may be slightly delusional, but it doesn't mean it's a it's a bad thing as long as you're willing to take the potential costs of you know, not being that successful. Yeah, we really are people, Yeah it is. Yeah, he's a cursed So I have to ask because I feel like we're both kind of at this stage where we have this like two road diverged situation. Yes, yeah, where I was like, we've got the corporate option, the stable option, the career progression house at thirty marriage at thirty five kind of option, and then we both have I think this is why we really connect as friends, is because then we both have these like very strong creative desires. Yeah, that seem like possibilities, And I wonder, you know, in ten years time if regardless which path, do you think you would be happier on, Like, do you think that you would? Yeah? Yeah, like all things considered. Do you think you would be happier as a successful actor, happier you know, regardless of of the stuff, the struggle that you've had to go you've had to go through. Or do you think you're going to be happier as someone who is working in politics? I'm sure very successful. Have you thought about that about it? But what do you think? Yeah? Yeah, no, absolutely absolutely. UM. I think it's like you're right when you're when you're stepping out of university and looking at getting what I guess the first job in your career is going to be. It can be two paths, um. I think for me. And I don't know how this resonates with you, because because by the way, Jenner's an absolutely incredible painter, um and also a really good writer, But you haven't written as much lately as you usually do. UM like very good writer, m very very good. UM. And yeah, at least for me, the I I because that's I think I started to the reason I was wearying on acting was because I did see it as a bit of a fork and that you know, if I didn't get into it now, then I never will. UM. The thing that really did it for me I really long conversation with my dad about you know this and what what um and weighing up my choices and how it would reflect And the best thing he said a bit he said to me was you know, just because you say no now, it doesn't mean the opportunity closed forever, which which sounds really basic. The kind of the way he framed it was that you can go off and have the current conventional career that you you know, might also quite enjoy and do the things creatively that you do you like, so you know, write, act whatever in your free time. UM, And there'll always be opportunities down the line to further explore that, particularly if you've been to you know, building it up in the background, if that makes sense. So I sounded it like a sellout, But no, no, I think that, like I swear it's true. What do you think? Well, I think that sounds exactly like something your dad would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, something your dad would say, yeah, Like you know, I go to your house and I get like tower cut readings from your parents, like yeah, and like energy readings like I think you're right. Well, his exact words were, you know, um, when when you ask us, His exact words were, when you ask something of the universe, you know it will provide you an opportunity, um many opportunit needs along your life path, which you know which which I usually take it face about you, but it was it was very reassuring. That's what you need to hear. I think at that. Yeah, yeah he did. He said what you needed to hear, which is such kind of a beautiful thing, like, yeah, exactly, shout out to nevill and no, I'm definitely what I needed to hear, not what I think I wanted to hear, which is cool. But yeah, how do you see the two roads diverging in your place in it? We've talked about this a bit, I think actually, like we talked about it the other day, um, And I think I'm kind of at a bit of a I don't know, I am a little bit confused. I love having this podcast, but I think it is such a creative outlet and obviously, yeah, but it has been a thing where I think I've become quite existential and thinking about like the concept of like one life and um, you know is you know you're here to be head anyway, perhaps you should really just enjoy it. And it's kind of do you enjoy the risk and the idea of a big payoff with you enjoy the common luxuries? And that's a huge thing I've been you know, this like that I've been kind of thinking about recently is whether to take a creative path. And I think that, like what your dad said has been kind of my reasoning as well, in the less spiritual way, because he's a very spiritually blessed person, and more so, I was just kind of thinking, like, you know, I never know what opportunities may come up in the future and what financial freedom might actually be able to bring me in terms of realizing dreams moving to Kurumbin and having my art studio and having my creative studio and being able to bring women people and elderly people and anyone to come and join me. So it's like, you know, having I guess money is kind of the activates a lot of your future ambitions. And you know, Jack, like the guy who played Han Solo didn't become an actor to who is like forty true and true, You're going to be such a silver fox, like I would stop it. Yeah, I'm I'm worried about being silver fox. Every My mum's a hairdresser, and every time we go to Sydney, she she will find like one or two gray hairs growing when I'm getting my haircut. Um. God, So I don't know if I can spoil the look. I hope I can, but yeah, I think that you can. Your mom is an excellent hairdresser as well. I remember last time we went up there and I had like this two hour like your dad, because I feel like I'm close close to your family. I really Yeah, no, they love you. I honestly, they speak so highly of you. Um like like kind of on part with Milan, who's been my best friend since preschool. They really like it territory did um No, they're really They're just such lovely people. I think very highly of them as well. Actually, so hopefully you share this that you did this show with me so you can like me more. Yeah yeah, yeah, but I'll show my parents. Hey guys, hey mom and dad. Hi. I remember like going up there. They just provide such wide advice in your mom. I'm just going through a break up at the time, and your mom gave me like the post breakup haircut, you know, and they look good. They look good as well, thank you. They're not looking as great as than your mum. Yeah banging, um, yeah, they're not looking as good as they called banks yeah banks, yeah, yeah, you're such a guy sometimes yeah bangs And I remember, yeah, anyhow that was an event later that evening, so yeah, but yeah, they do provide excellent advice and like, yeah, I think what your dad said is completely real and just something that we all have to consider and a big shout out to people who do choose to take that roadless travel and it is like something that we all come across. But in terms of the kind of lifestyle you have now tapping into your creative side, what's that kind of one habit that you've picked up that you kind of want to see yourself doing in ten years would you would you hope that you're still writing and still acting or do you see? Yeah, I think I see. I don't really know. I think. Um, like as we're talking about earlier, first year Jack would would have a ten year kind of trajectory. But but if if it's like anything, the last you know I'll make. This is a really boring answer, but but but I've stopped making really long term plans in life because I realized that what I enjoy and what I'm discovering about myself changes so often that I'm constantly relearning how to live a happy life. Um. But I think that things that I've learned as a solid which which makes you very happy, which I'd want to do in the future. It's definitely definitely writing creatively, um in you know, I'll on on my off days, I'll usually have a routine where I'll get up in the morning and get down on the keyboard and I'll do an hour at least. So I hope I'm still doing that because I think it's a really good way to kind of express yourself. Um And it's a good of a pressure about for me. It really releases a lot of a lot of energy and thoughts and ideas that I have. Um yeah, that would be the one thing I think that I want to keep consistent, you know, he keep keep you know, kind of kind of like when I first started doing it. Keep keep expressing what I'm thinking and going through the moment um and you know, turning that into some form of entertaining art. Yeah, would you ever write a novel? I've never asked you this. Do you think you could write an oh something like that? I write, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's that's a really good question. I I don't. I think I would love to, but I don't think I have yet. This is this is a kind of I really haven't tested it, but I don't really think I have the attention span right now. Um, I find that what I like, you definitely know this. What I enjoy changes every week, and so I would get one. I like. The best part of short stories is that you can write it in two days or three days. Um. Novels, it's like a it's like a six month, twelve month, eighteen month journey. Um. I think it's maybe later in life, when I settled down, start and start getting a bit more stable with my passions, I can commit to something. Um yeah yeah, if it was yeah, yeah, well yeah, if it was, tell me tell me now you go, no, I want to hear. If it wasn't, well, I think I think if it was, I'd love to do like a little like Aldus Huxley, kind of utopia. Um. He did this, he did he wrote this book. He's he's the author of Brave New World, which is the bad utopia, the dystopia. But he did this awesome book called Ireland, and it is he spent about five years researching all of these different things about spirituality, social psychology. Um. A lot of it was a lot of Eastern religion and Western science kind of fused, and he wrote this really beautiful utopia based on you know what we knew about humanity at the time. That was really cool. What what was what? What was it like? So it was it was based on an island and the there are a few really cool principles of it, which was that all the children belonged to First of all, the population was very small, um. And all the children exactly yeah um. And all the children belonged to like every parent sort of thing. So it was like kind of collective child child rearing. Um. And there was a lot of meditation that was emphasized, a lot of There are a few principles. I read it eight years ago, so I forgot it. Forgot an example. They are, yeah, yeah, well it was cool. Yeah. We were talking about Boda the other day while he was weirdo yeah, yeah, exactly, I know. No, yeah, literally he sat on a tree for two weeks. I need to realize, you know, at the end of it, this is a bit much. I need to chill out and take the middle path. I would just be craving char time. Can you get delivery to your bordhis tree? Yeah, yeah, I know, I think I yeah, no, I don't want to disparage the listeners, but um, we respect every religion here. We definitely Hey, but you know what we need to do next year because I feel like we could both write novels and maybe fucking bab Yeah. Well, I just think we need to just like do some really crazy stuff and just like really pushing ab our boundaries and just have like wild experiences like I feel like we liked it. Next year we need to just have just do something like I feel like what you're talking about, Like, I know you're talking about more of a utopian, dystopian future world. M thinking my some yeah, I think it's more based than not so much political and sociological idealism. It's more Yeah, I love to write like an excellent like coming of age story like some yeah, raw and and it's yeah, yeah, terrify life is, but also just how just experiences and the human experience. And I feel like it's such like an amazing time to kind of like make those because I feel like all good stories come from a place that's very real. Yeah absolutely, no, I really I really like that idea. That's that is that's fantastic. I really like that. Well yeah no no no, but like but no, it's it's a really cool thing though, and I think, um, it definitely be worth like sitting down and talking about it. Yeah, because because because I think, yeah, you go yeah, no, no, no, you go just living well, like being like poor, We're not going to be poor. I felt it's bad to say, but like young people in Sydney, like I just I don't know, maybe that's like a cliche like something that's been done before. Maybe I'm idealizing our future life, but like yeah, just having all those experiences and I think, also, you know this very well about me, Like I'm very obsessed with like capturing your youth. And yeah, that's why I do like my one second a day, That's why I do these podcast episodes, just like being able to have something to look back on and relate to and being like, wow, like you know, my biggest spirits being like forty with kids and not being able to know to know to look back on and reflect on all the experiences that I had absolutely so profound, and I just think like messy, just messy. Yeah, yeah, No, I like that, No, because I think I was I was thinking of doing this for a while, but kind of going back through my journal entries and kind of looking at the kind of shape my life has taken and have grown um and like by way of Cathars, it's maybe revisiting those painful moments and capturing that somehow. And so I like your idea of capturing like a messy coming of age use Yeah, because I also like, like, I think I think, you know, at least at least my years growing up, you see adults who have it all kind of together and what a stability and you said, really hard expectations on yourself. So I think the kind of raw art forms that I've definitely been emerging the past few years about how messed up and scary and terrifying life can be the best I can give the most comfort. Yeah, absolutely, And I think like the that's it's a good point. And I think that like my favorite book, like A Little Life, it does that really well. Maybe that's where I'm getting my inspiration from because I just read it. But it follows these like people from the ages of when I was sixteen to like forty, living like in New York, following all these different career paths, and I'm just their lives and all the things that happened to them, and the conflict and the love and not just the drama, but just like the nuance of human interaction. Oh, it's just the most like real life is just I think. And that's just like that book excellently, I think. To read it, Yeah you don't. I think it's very long, but I think you would really like it at this point of life. Actually, i'll give you my copy, No, thank you. You're either there's a there's a real beauty in like capturing those little moments. Yeah, and and kind of I don't know, it's really hard to describe, but you kind of it's almost like where where you kind of touch life, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's you can really you can really feel it. Yeah, it's like it's like you can really feel it's very granular. Um. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, No, no, no, you're You're absolutely right. And I think that like the big part of what I love this book is there's no moral. There's no like moral of the story. Like it's not trying to teach you anything. It's not like all those books you have to read in high school where it's like same of you know, redemption or guilt or honesty or bravery. It's just it's not trying to you anything. It's not giving you a moral. Like I think it's the most adult book I've ever read because it's just like, yeah, this is the brutality of life, and it's joyful and it's hard, and it's not kind of force anything on you in terms of an ideology. It's like a reflection. And reading it, I was just like these characters just make such like she just creates such a beautiful, beautiful world that feels so real. And I think I've said I like said this to the guy that I'm saying. Um. The other day I was like, oh fuck, I forgot what I said. Oh yeah, Like I haven't read the final I'm so terrified of it ending because it just is so real, Like I know that something bad. Yeah right, I know, and I just I've never read it. I've read the book so many times. Last pages. Yeah yeah, because it feels like I love I love spoiling things, so I'll have to hold myself together after I read it. But oh, I know what happened, Like I don't want to spoil it, but I just know, like it's all leading up to this point, and I'm just like terrified because it's just so fucking real and so existential and it's just like too much for me. I think, Yeah, No, it's you're either, it's it's it is really reassuring seeing those types of things where there's no theme or moral lesson, it's just it's it's people trying to reflect their own realities. Um. I think it's been a huge thing that's come up in the TV scene at the momentum where you have like like this, what's the show Euphoria was a really good example where kind of it's not thematic, it just gives like like this, very very real stories about what people go through. Um, and it has this I'll never forget. It has these amazing introductions to each episode where it the episodes will kind of take a focus on a particular character, but it gives you the kind of character's story and upbringing in background at the start of it. So, for example, there's Um. One of the stories focuses on a closet homosexual and he Um goes through this background of of you know, him being shamed by his dad for for being feminine and making the football team and all this thing. Um, and then you kind of see his story play out in the episode and you always thought he was a bit of a dick in the previous ones, and it just completely covers a complete the image. Wow, just flips the narrative. It's kind of also like the way back which you and Tom recommend it to me, where it's just like just his dirty life, like yeah, yeah, that's it, Like that's it. I don't know, maybe there's like maybe someone who studies literature can like give us like the name for what kind of a job that we're talking about, Like, yeah, perhaps that's why we will never write a novel because we don't know enough about literature. But yeah, I feel like there's a name for it that someone leave it in the show. I don't know, reach out notes team. Yeah, no, definitely, Yeah, we've been recording for almost an hour. Yeah, you're right. So yeah, before before we went on, you said it was going to go fast, and it went very fast. I hope it embarrassed myself because I was very nervous at the start and I don't like coming across in a that way, so I think I was being careful about that, but I hope it was right. No, dude, this was like, literally, I think the best part about good friends is realizing that no matter how long you've been friends, you can still discover something new about someone like yeah, and still have incredibly engaging conversations that are just like really lightening. So I have to say, I'm like, thank you for having me on. It was. It's it's really cool invitation to have a very just in conversation and you ask very very good questions. So am I the next Oprah? Could I be? Yeah? I think so, I think so. Yeah, if Australia had an opera, thanks babe, it's going to be my new That's going to be my highlot of the week now. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on. You're such a dear friend. So it was, And I think we've been talking about doing this episode for a while, and I'm sure the listeners who are still listening you'll hear from him again. We've got another episode in the work. We barely even talked about it, actually, considering how much we've discussed it. But yeah, I'm kind of glad that we didn't touch on it because I feel like it's such an episode in its own right. Yeah. No, a little sneaky surprise. Yeah, yeah, a little sneak So you'll be hearing more of Jack's voice. Yeah, yeah, hey, guys, enjoy it him. But yeah, thank you so much to Jack, one of my my co writers, as I said start, who helps me out with so many of these ideas and we have so many discussions and he's you're just such a big inspiration. You really pushed me to do this. So a real gratitude um extending out to you. But yeah, thanks Jackie, thank you. That's that's really kind. And yeah, thanks thanks for being such an awesome friend. And yeah, sorry you go, you're doing your outro. I need I need to stop talking. You're doing No, No, I was just I was just going to say this is it's so good that you've committed to this for so long. You've the podcast has been amazing and no, I'm I'm often in are of of the things you do constantly so but I don't say that often. True friends, true but true. Thanks thanks to Jack for stoking my ego there. Um remember to well if you liked the episode, which I hope you hope you flipping did because it was buddy good. I hope you subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple podcast, wherever you're listening right now, follow us on Instagram. Um, and yeah, I hope you really enjoyed the episode, so thanks for listening and bye Jack, So yeah, see you guys. Th