Today we are discussing the psychology of climate anxiety especially in light of recent announcements of a code red for humanity due to climate change. I’m joined by Tenaya, our in house expert on all things sustainability, to discuss how climate anxiety manifests, the psychology of climate denial and how to take care of yourself when faced by dread about the future of the planet. References / things talked about: The IPCC report: https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/ Tim Hollo’s article on climate doomism being as harmful as climate denial: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7385966/climate-doomism-is-the-new-climate-denial/ Fire Country by Victor Steffensen: https://www.hardiegrant.com/au/publishing/bookfinder/book/fire-country-by-victor-steffensen/9781741177268 Rob Willer on moral reframing in political conversations: https://www.ted.com/talks/robb_willer_how_to_have_better_political_conversations/
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the very unprofessional podcast where we talk through some of the biggest changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Welcome to the new maybe not very exciting episode, if nonetheless, this week we're going to be discussing climate anxiety, which is a huge issue for us in our twenties. I think this is the first generation to realize that our kids are not going to grow up in the same world that we live in. So I thought we'd kind of discuss it today and I'd bring on a guest to join me. Hi yourself, Oh, hello, Hi, I'm to now. Yeah, I'm Jemma's resonant climate guide. I don't know guide is a good word for it. Sounds very professional. And for all those wondering there calling this across the web, across the interwebs, across the interweb, it took a bit of a took a few trial runs, but we're here now. We're techie kids. We're techie kids. I've got a pizza in front of me, I've had a few glasses of wine. How are you going this afternoon? Good? Yeah, I have tea, so not as exciting, but just as good. Yeah. Um, sorry, there's me chewing before we get into it. I feel like I want the audience to know you a little bit better. So can you tell us about how we met? What's your deal? Yeah, you from Gema and I met at college and um we bonded just exclusively over Taylor Swift. Um, that's literally that's how I picked you. On my head, I'm like, yeah, it's general. We love Taylor Swift, that's true, and my friendship is obviously more than that, now you know that's it's literally, it's just Taylor Swift. That's all we talk about. Yeah, we don't even know why we're doing this episode. Yeah, I can't think of anything. Yeah, this has not been endorsed by Taylor Swift, so why are we doing it? But I remember the first time I was like, oh my god, me intine are friends was when Folklore got released and we came over. I came over and died like a listening party at your house. Yeah. You brought so many good snacks, yeah, and then I ate them all. Well, it was a joint effort, Yeah, we tried, I think. Yeah, well yeah, so what are we talking about today because it isn't Taylor Swift. Yeah, it is not Taylor Swift. Um, we are going to be talking about climate anxiety, which is, um sort of something that I am. I get. I'm involved with climate anxiety because I study um, climate science and policy at university. And yeah, I have the the things you want to know. You know, well, I don't have all the knowledge, but she has a fair amount. I also like personal experience with this as well. Um, and like so, like I kind of already explained. I think the reason I'm really interested in discussing this is because I don't know if you agree to now, but climate anxiety is going to become a fucking pandemic. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. Yeah, And I really think that is just going to be overwhelmed, like we are facing let's be real, like mass extinction, natural desats, does the end of the human race? And yeah, I think, yeah, sorry, I feel like our mental health, like you know, sector is already overwhelmed, and then adding climate turned onto that it's just it's it's going to go downhill. Yeah, especially as like the world deteriorates even further and more people are surviving natural disasters. Um, I really wanted to say, I read this excellent quote the other day. I think it was maybe even on your Instagram to now classic classic, Yeah, follow her if you want some good climate change in for graphics that make you feel furious and also clim at the same time. But I read this excellent quote and it was like, essentially climate change is going to be conveyed through tragic videos of natural disasters we see on our phone until one day we're the ones filming. That was pretty profound because I'm I'm sure we'll get into it, Like we've both already had experiences with things like bush fires, floods, you know, global warming in general, Like it's not uncommon at this stage, and it just shows how it's just going to become like increasingly more prevalent with this next generation. And like, another big reason I wanted to talk about climate anxiety is because, like I said, it's on the rise. Many psychologists feel the unequipped to handle a growing number of patients who are just despairing about the future of the planet because we're not like the systems and the processes were used to deal with general anxiety or depression, they're just not really equipped for this kind of like existential dread, which you kind of agree with that, like, but it's very unique. Yeah, definitely. I think you know, so much of like mental health response it's quite individualistic, and this is like which is important and needed, but this is like a massive, you know, worldwide problem that everyone faces, and you know everyone's going to face it in really different ways as well. That's a really good point. I hadn't actually thought about that. Like so often the struggles that we have mentally are very individualistic and you know, you can go to therapy for them and maybe work through it. But this is going to be something that's just like so much bigger and like not to be existential, but like we're not going to save our planet, like we we're going to try. But yeah, but maybe this is my climate anxiety and climate like dread sinking in. Like I just don't think that we're going to be able to fix it, and there's that's just a huge source of dread and how to like mental health professionals really adapt to this, and like all over the world, various psychiatric organizations and governments, they've all recognized climate changes are growing threat to mental health, not just in terms of PTSD you're to like exposure to floods and bush fires and the like. They're just like a general common concern about the future of our climate, which I think is also really interesting and like I just don't imagine it's going to disappear either. And I think I was saying to you yesterday today when we when we were talking on the phone about like the Morrison government. Yeah, yeah, I've seen the memes recently on Twitter. Oh did you see the memes? Oh, there we go. You know it's going to hit the news when there's memes about it. But essentially the Morrison government still but whatever announced that they wanted more school chapelains to help children due to climate anxiety or more specifically, alarmist climate activism that they claimed to increase mental health concerns amongst children. Yeah. I think they chasers some today really well. They tweeted and they were like, um, after the chaplain like chaplain incident, we're taking the week off. Like there's no need for satire because the government's sort of just providing it there. Yeah, in the flesh. I literally love it. I love how they're like it's left wing organizations like get Up and extinction rebellion, like they're they're making kids stress because they're alarming messages, which is like the truth. And it's like you maybe think that kids are actually just like stressing because it's like the end of the world, Like yeah, maybe, And I said it was like, yeah, even like the mental health of children is politicized rather than you know, actually like addressing the issue. Like instead of being like, oh, yeah, climate change is actually a problem, they're like, oh my god, the fucking get up is poisoning them. Yeah, it's it's a massive amount of blame shifting unfortunately. Yeah, and like it's almost satirical, like it's ironic commerce. It's just like there's some things like this you just can't help but almost want to laugh at, like just how ridiculous that like narrative shifting is. And I we also talked about how there's been some really interesting recent discussions about whether to add climate anxiety as a disorder into the DSM. So the DSM being like the International Manual of like all clinical mental health disorders and conditions, So should climate anxiety as serious as it is be able to be classified as a mental health disorder And this would mean more governmental funding for this type of issue and more space for research into effective clinical approaches to minimize climate dread and existential dread concerning the planet and our climate. You know, there's not really much more funding towards actually saving the planet that can be done, but it would help in terms of addressing us from a clinical perspective. Anyhow, the reason I wanted to bring you on is you have such amazing general knowledge. Yeah, what do you start? You have like a basically like a degree in environment and climate change. Yeah, my um, I do politics, philosophy and economics as well, but that's a bit boring. And environment Yeah, Environment and sustainability is the degree that I really enjoy. And then I'm minoring climate science and policy and I work for an environmental charity. So she's got the whole package. Guys, it's all. It's all here. A lot of climate dread to come with that, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. Also a fun fact we're working together next year. We both got grad jobs at the same place, so this is the first of many collaborations. Today, I'm sure, I'm very excited, but yeah, I feel like everyone knows what climate change is. We don't need to tell you what it is if you have not heard about it, you've been sleeping under a rock. But one thing I really want to talk about is the IPCC reports. Can you give us a little bit of an overview. Yeah, So the IPCC or like the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change, there is just like a lot of acronyms in like the UN climate science world. But they release their report on the Physical Science of Climate Change, which is part of AAR six. So it's like they go through cycles of reporting them the climate and this particular report it's just about the physical science and they the IPCC doesn't actually do the science themselves. They just assess current science. So like they looked at about fourteen thousand publications, there was like thirty four authors and like over like seventy eight thousand review comments. UM, so heaps of science is obsessed. It's basically like the best sort of analysis of current climate science in the world. And they're timed to um sort of tie into policy debates. So like we have six coming up, which is like um in Glasgow when they'll it's a conference basically following on from the Paris Agreement to try and keep global warming below two degrees and this report will really help that you what are you expecting from this from this conference? Hopefully more intense climate sort of commitments to reduce emissions. So Paris, there was a lot of change between Paris, which was in twenty sixteen and now like we had Trump in, you know, who pulled out of the Paris Agreement and then Biden signed the Paris Agreement back in and then so you have like, you know, one of the world's biggest polluters, the US, flipping from completely like climate denier tom really like solid pledged climate action. We had China committing to net zero by twenty fifty, Japan committed to net zero I think by twenty oh sorry, China is committing by twenty sixty. Ye. Yeah, So just a lot of different pledges. So it'll be interesting to see whether other countries like Australia that haven't we haven't changed our commitments, whether or not we'll sort of up the game or not. What's our current commitment. Our current commitment is I think twenty six or twenty eight percent reduction on two thousand and in emissions on two thousand and five levels. I think it's a really it's a very weak political standpoint. It's not great, Well, who can blame us? Well, but who's surprised, Like no one's Morrison, Like COVID package was like, let's just give heaps of money to like fossil fu organizations and like it will trickle down, Yes, yeah, I know, and very much into like a gas lead recovery, which is not a recovery at all. I know, it's still gas, it's still a fossil fuel and it's still terrible. Yeah, it's like our recovery is going to be only for the next ten years and then well we don't know what to do after that. Yeah, exactly, So good luck everyone, bye bye, see you in hell. But what did the reports say? Specifically? Because it's been in the news heaps, maybe for people who haven't read it, can you give us a little bit of a sum up of what's it? All doom and gloom? Like, what what's it telling us? Yeah it was, it was all doom and gloom. M not gonna lie. And it's actually really interesting because every single government, which is part of the IPCC, which is like you know, I think most governments across the world, they had to go through and approve their summary for policymakers line by line, So basically the whole report was approved by every government worldwide, so you've got about Yeah, yeah, it's really so it's sort of it actually on some cases it means that the IPCC and their reports under represent sort of. It's like, I think the statistic is that IPCC reports are twenty times more likely to be worse than what they state, like their predictions. It's twenty times more likely that it'll be worse than their predictions because they actually tend to under report slightly because they have to make sure that everything is very, very certain because it's all being signed off by a bunch of governments, which means that it will probably be worse than what they predict, but you know, we'll just see. But also the prediction was already pretty bad. Yeah, so they said, you know, I think the press release line was like this is code read for humanity, and they said, the you know we're getting like extreme heat is more intense and frequent, heavy rainfall is more frequent, and intense droughts increasing, there's more frequent fire, whether the ocean's warming, acidifying and losing oxygen, and it's just basically saying that our you know, the Paris agreement, like all governments worldwide basically tried to keep committed to try and keeping global warming under one point five degrees or at least under two two degrees. But where this report is saying, we will one pcent see that this century and less massively deep productions in emissions are happening because we've already hit one point one degrees of warming. Yeah. Actually, the thing that really got me when I was I went to a seminar about this report, and it said, if we want to hit net zero by twenty fifty, which would keep us on like sort of the low the low emissions pathways to try and keep it under two degrees, we need to have a reduction in emissions the equivalent of what the COVID pandemic did to us every two years. So we need to like have that massive amount of sort of economic downturn every two years. Currently. Obviously there's ways that we can like decouple emissions from GDP, so like if you know, at the moment where it's very tired together, so when GDP grows, emissions grow and blah blah blah, and we can change that. But yeah, at the moment, it's like we need to have a COVID pandemic level of reduction in emissions every two years, and it will be really interesting because like, I don't think COVID is going away anytime soon, but when it does, which will be probably within the next decade, and like that sounds like a long time for like us right now, But in terms of like climate emissions, it's not really as soon as like COVID starts to kind of become less of the issue that everyone's worried about. Vaccination increases. We don't really know what's going to happen. But what will happen I think is that a lot of governments will seek to bounce back by sorry, pizza burp, A lot of governments will probably seek to bounce back by pumping heaps of money into like industries, international travel. We will open up again. International trade will become less regulated, like will not less regulated, but more kind of open, because we're not so worried about border restrictions and you know, crossing into other territories and the spread of a deadly disease. So it's almost like we're going to kind of slide back, perhaps even worse than we were before. And I know this is like a weird conspiracy, but I seriously think like Mother Nature if she's out there, COVID was definitely deliberate, like he was like, Okay, you fucking stupid humans, time to get a grip. He's a deadly disease. Well, actually, like it was very linked to sort of what we like science predicted and a pandemic like this. Like really, there was an article that was that got quite an attraction in Nature in like twenty eighteen, and it was like our expansion into areas it had previously been untouched by humans, so like just building more and expanding population meant that the likelihood of pandemics was basically a one hundred percent and it will be one hundred percent in the future, like our continual expanding into like wild sort of spaces. Dapid up and recalls them wild spaces. So yeah, it means that this is definitely like you know, yeah, I like to think of c s response to to be like you should it's but though obviously a lot of people were dieting. That's really horrible. So not oh, I'm not saying I'm obviously I'm not blaming on any cobra. I'm just saying that like in terms of like our interactions with nature, And yeah, that sounds really bad and it's obviously a lot more nuance than that, but it shows what happens when you start to fuck with the planet in ways that like previously we've had control over um. And I think that article maybe we will link it in the show notes so people can give it a read. Did it kind of basically predict COVID? Yeah, Like from what I remember of it, it was very much like we are going to have a pandemic because we just keep like, you know, pushing into natural spaces and like the likelihood of them, you know, animals in those spaces carrying diseases that we haven't been interacted with, etc. Etc. Yeah, yeah, wow, and that's essentially what happened. So yeah, all very doom and gloom. Sorry about the noise in the background. My housemates making pasta is wearing her headphones, so I don't think she realizes I'm recording a friend of the show. Yeah, but you're like all very doom and gloom. And I think this is like a huge contributor to climate anxiety, because I think I even the word climate anxiety and that kind of term of clinical reference we've been using in recent years. There's almost not broad enough who it's not just about the climate. It's just about like the general decline of our state of life and our capacity to like have hope for the future. It's so much more than just like I'm worried that it's going to get warmer. It's like we need to kind of address it more and be like, no, it's not just to worry about that. It's about all those repercussions. I'm worried about food scarcity. I'm worried about natural disasters. I'm worried about pandemics. I'm worried about the ability for my government to provide for its citizens once it's fine our industries run out, yeah, definitely, and water scarcity and ingles and people and like the climate refugees. We're just going to become a massive problem. So the reasons really do abound, Like there's there's so many reasons to be stressed about this. I think, um, yes, I have definitely like sat in climate lectures and just cried, Like I remember really vividly one about talking about the bleaching of the Great Barrier reef and how like we'll basically lose under a high impact emission scenario, I think, which is sort of like if we continue business as usual, there's obviously a lot more nuance to it. But um, you know, I'll coral there will be like no coral reefs basically across the world because they'll all be bleached and die. And I was sitting in this like just like crying. Yeah, wow, that's kind of yeah. I remember Phoebe telling me this as well, like so many of her lectures, there's no positive spin to this stuff, like yeah, that's yeah, you can't really spend it positive and no wonder that like and I think I kind of mentioned this, but like, and I love that point you made about how so many mental health issues and state or internal mhm, it's control it like the nukes seventies and eighties, kid, Yeah, the Cold War. I don't even know if it was in the seventies and eighties, the Cold War. We all know what that was. Um, Like, our like psychological tools and our therapy tools and now counseling tools don't have never faced anything. Just nothing comparable in the literature, nothing that is able to kind of how do you sue someone who's like I'm worried that the planet's going to end, and it's like, well, you know, it's not anxiety. It's like, well it is like, yeah, it's actual reality. Feel okay, Like you just don't. It's just um, but maybe let's talk about some ways that we can kind of push through this, because you know, there is still stuff that we can do. What are your thoughts on that? On kind of overcoming climate anxiety? Is someone who has dealt with their fair amount Yeah, personally, Um, Like obviously, I you know, have the privilege to just sort of go outside and spend a lot of time in nature, which is such a nice way to sort of experience the world and be like, Okay, it might suck and the future looks really grim, but um, there are you know a lot of there's a beautiful sunset in front of me or something like that, you know, to sort of appreciate, um, but in reality, a lot of I think you can see it in what I study and what I work for that like, my response to climate change is really to sort of take action. Like I yeah, I was like eleven and I was in front of a glacier in Canada, which is the most privileged statement to stay well probably not, but just a very privileged statement in a very privious place to realize how much the climate is changing. But it had these signs and it was like, this is where the glacier was in like nineteen o two, and this is where it was in nineteen seventy and this is where it is now, and it had retreated like two kilometers or something, and I was just like, so I was looking at it, and I was like, this is so sad, and my brain was like, okay, well I have to do something. But yeah, that just I think for me actually like just me personally action like taking climate action, and yeah, it can be can just help make like feel like I'm making a little bit of a difference. And if that's like you know, divesting my money out of fossil fuels and into ethical companies or like emailing my local MP or picking companies to buy from that are sustainable, that's you know, that's okay. But you know, also having conversations like this, like um, doing a lot of community base like looking how can a community help. Is there like a community food coop or a garden or a way that I can feel connected to the people around me because that's I think the way that we're gonna get through this. Yeah, And it's interesting because I think there, you know, you do make that point like they're small actions, realistic, like it isn't going to make a huge difference. Yeah, but no, but honestly, but this is the thing. It's like, but what you're doing it for is your own mental health. So it's kind of like still a metal here, Like the gold medal would obviously be to you know, fix all that's wrong with the world, fix the climate, fix greed, blah blah blah blah blah, and like small actions they do help, um, but it's also like they help you. And if the only thing you count control is how you're feeling in response to some of these to some of these big you know, changes in nature and change changes in our climate, like that's you really just have to go through that, don't you. Yeah, I think you know, like we know that one hundred companies have been the source of like over seventy percent of the world's whole emissions since like you know, the twentieth century, and so it can feel very small and very um, you know, useless. But again, like again, I think it's like exactly like you said, it's like something that helps your mental health and like the mental health of the people around you if you're engaging in um anything, you know. I think we're not going to be able to sort of tackle an issue like this, you know, And it's never going to be solved either, it's only really going to be adapted or mitigated to But like the strategies need to be based around community and like interconnectedness, so lovely. Um yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I'm I'm on the same page with you today. Amazing. Wow, we should set a podcast. Yeah, just us, just us, and all we talk about is climate change and Taylor Swift and if you're not interested, get out, Yeah, get out? What else is there to be interested in the world. The greatest pop star of all time and the greatest crisis of all time. We've really been getting her number one. Having said that, Taylor Swift's climate like, she's not good for the environment, like her miss And I don't want to hate on Taylor, but I'm just gonna say her Miss American documentary, there were so many plastic water bottles and I was like, Taylor, it's twenty twenty or twenty nineteen whenever that was filmed. You can use a reusable water bottle. I know you can, Like, babe, you've got the money. They cost five dollars. Yeah, I will come and work Taylor Swift, because you're obviously going to listen to this podcast. Yes, I have the information. I'll come and work for you and like sort that out. Yes, she can be your climate consultant. Ever more Folklore Tour, which will be happening next ye please please. But also the other thing is like remember her, like when you went to the nineteen eighty nine World Tour and they everyone had those wristbands that where did they all go? In? Landfill? Yeah? And so much electricity to run those concerts. God, we can't have both to nail, but we can't. They can be renewable. You can have a totally reasonable festival system. It's all. This is what my work does, and it's possible. Yeah, possible, Like I mean that's what Yeah, yeah, I think that with every like major, I don't know. I love thinking in like, um, like there's two sides of the same coin type of thing, like as with you know, every single massive. This is a very wicked problem, but it also means like a huge amount of opportunity, um like climate change sort of adaptation and mitigation. Like, um so, changing the way we act and also changing how we respond to climate events has like massive opportunity in terms of improving like um inequalities and sort of like so for example, like we know that educating and empowering women like an actual sex education is basically one of the best ways to reduce climate emissions because it reduces population rates. And you know, so you're educating women, which is obviously an incredible thing, and you're lowering emissions or the same as like, um you know, if you have like instead of connecting to a single electricity grid, you can develop decentralized grids, so like smaller villages or towns have like renewable energy instead of connecting to a main grid, and it means that like they have sort of more secure energy and more like better access to energy. So it's basically and then you know, obviously like fast nations or indigenous peoples across the world have massive incredible knowledge bases about land and sustainability and so like using or like amplifying their voices as well means that like, yeah, with the problem solving opportunities. Its massive and in terms of like, um, even like secondary secondary order consequences of like controlling disasters around climate change. Like, um, I'm obviously specifically thinking about bush fires, but like taking our indigenous and like knowledge is so important. Like as much as we've like developed science and like white people have created like education institutions, Like I'm sorry, we really don't know much compared to people who've been like living with the land for many, many years. Yeah, that's a really good book. Oh sorry, there's a really good book called Fire Country that I just finished by Victor Stephenson, and it's it's about like fire management in Australia, and yeah, the possibilities if we could roll out m you know, First Nations led fire management across the country would just be insane, like you know, and so foreign people have like yeah, and like they've lived through ice ages and you know, so many climate changes that like their resilience and learning from that is just a really incredible opportunity that we can sort of combine climate action and like climate justice generally. Give me that book. We can do a book slop. Yeah, okay, I will Yeah, I'll give you something I've been reading it's probably fiction, but still very love fiction. Yeah. Oh yeah, okay, great, I'll give you like a really good book, something light hearted. I feel like you need that climate anxiety. You need something to take the edge off. Okay, I can see. Something else that you've brought up is that climate doomism can be just as harmful as climate denial. And I know we're going to talk about climate denial later, but what do we really kind of mean by that climate doomism can be just as harmful as climate denial? Yeah? So this was actually an article that a Tim Hollow wrote, who is a He's running for the seat of the Greens and the federal the next election in the Cama Nations Capital. Yeah, and he wrote an article about this and I read it and was like, oh my god. Basically it's just sort of saying that, yeah, we can't focus and by climate joomism, you know, he means like, oh, like when climate change comes, which I mean it's here already, but okay, um, you know, I'm just going to go off into the mountains of New Zealand and live off the land, and that sort of very privileged thing to say that, like, oh, we can just escape climate change, and I think it's totally I mean, look, we've all had our moments like, um, I have definitely actually with Friends of the Show Aaron when the election results came out like three, you know, when Scymo won the election, we just did shots and had a cry at like two o'clock in the morning because of this, and we're like, oh my god, we're gonna go and just like fuck this all, you know, And that's such a natural reaction but has to be done sometimes. Yeah, but in a bigger sense, like that sort of doom and gloom totally shuts off from the possibility of action. Um. And it is also only like there's no it's sort of it's bullshit, like there's no place even the mountains of New Zealand are going to be affected by climate change. There's no place where we can go. Um. That sort of is like oh yeah, I've just I'm just going to leave climate change behind. Like, no, we're all going to be affected obviously most people, like people were affected very very differently, but um, yeah we don't. Yeah, like you were saying such a privileged statement. It's like I'm just going to move to New zeal And. It's like yeah, but what about all like the island of communities, where are they going to go? Yeah, like Tavalu that is going under water, and you know it's just like whatout yourself as like yourself as being Yeah exactly, I've major individualists like but I don't think it's like I don't think people say it seriously. I think it is a very very natural reaction to climate anxiety and climate doom and being like oh, when situation has become uncomfortable and put you in a situation of danger, like, you do want to escape. You don't want to create a fantasy, and you do want to create an outcome that is because you just cannot eat a perpetual So I get what people say. I think it needs to shift. Sorry, yeah, I think it needs to shift to like yeah more, you know, the climate is something that is changing, but we can like at least try and make the outcome a little bit better, like together in a in a sort of united way. Yeah I sound like a cult leader, but you know, and I know that's the vibe that we all need. You know, right now we have Spot Morrison and Batman is just as boring as a fish and as dumb as a scarecrow. So, um, we do probably need something cult leader would be better. At least we could get something done. But I do see this like really positive point you've kind of put in, which is that you know there is some optimism. You don't need to move to New Zealand, right, you know, not right now at least like the world is kind of slowly moving moving on climate change. Like you said, most major developed countries are net zero by twenty fifty or like somewhere near that promise in terms of like the UK, UM, EU, America, China, UM, Japan, New Zealand. I don't know about Russia, I'm not, but they like countries are committing and you know there's a lot. I mean, um, the school strike for Climate and like Greta Thunderags, Fridays for Future Movement like that was those connected sort of marches were like the biggest I think I'm pretty sure that were the biggest ever um like worldwide movement of of protests for climate actions. So like things are changing, um and even in Australia the government is really slacking, but like all Australian states have committed to netzeria by twenty fifty UM and renewables are predicted to like outpaced fossil fuels in electricity generation by the end of the decade. So yeah, it's really hi podcast, Hi ask her to come back from my little walk outside se Sorry, guys, a little bit of a divt. We like to keep it classy and candidate on this show. So oh yeah, there we go. There's my housemates. He's fucking fabulous, he's wonderful. Um, I really want to talk about climate denial and why convincing people to make their problem can be so hard. And I've got like a bit of a story about this. So someone that I know, someone that, yeah, I don't know how many details I want to go into, someone who was like a close family relation of thoughts. Yeah, I've already told you this, so I think maybe I have. But um, they're like a full blown climate denialist, like climate change doesn't exist. The government's just trying to control us, The government's just trying to send us broke. The government doesn't care about small business, Like this is all this is all fake, Like the planet has changed so many times, this is like nothing new. It was really infuriating when I think I first recognize what harm these kind of arguments do M Yeah, because it is I think you've said it here, like it's linked to such a left and right wing divide. I don't really know how that has happened. Surely it's like a human like surely you like I would always like to think that like this innate sense of like loyalty to the next generation and like wanting our children to an inherit a better planet. Like everyone left and right has kids they love. Everyone has a sense of humanity like, but I guess not. I guess it's still very polarized and politicized and um just kind of this split between like conservatives and elites and regional communities and um more in the city communities that kind of stuff. Yeah, so we're like, yeah, we're second only to the US in the world in how much climate policy is like linked to political sort of left and rights. Like obviously, um, not everyone is like that, um. And in Australia there's yeah yeah, And in Australia, you know there are people that um sort of are on either side that do or don't believe in climate um. And you know there's like places like the UK where climate it's a really bipartisan issue, But Kia, I think we've we just haven't done a very good job at like including both sides in discussions. You know, we have like yeah, like you said, the sort of like these activists going on road trips, which is a great way to dump up support, but also can be so isolating for regional communities or mining communities that are like you are literally, yeah, you're literally protesting to remove my job, Like what the you know, that would be so unimaginably difficult to look at and you know, a response. It's so natural to respond and be like no, fuck you. Yeah, but yeah, and then we have these really weird contrast too. Of like you know, the Deputy PM Michael Colemack was like, agriculture needs to be exempt from any like emissions reduction policy because at the moment, agriculture contributes about thirteen scent of emissions and that will continue to increase. But then like the CEO of the National Farmers Federation, who you think would be his like sort of biggest supporter, was no, we don't necessarily want to be exempt. We just want to be included in the transition. And that's like very yeah, we definitely just need way better dialogue around like just transitions and supporting a really solid transition because we have such potential for hydrogen and solight and wind as long as we do a right Yeah, we definitely do, and that's a huge thing. I think two issues here that really leak to kind of social psychology, and I'm sure we'll talk about this a little bit later on, but I think a massive thing that we've seen is the failure to appreciate that Australia is not one country. Australia is highly divided between regional and like metropolitan areas or like city areas, and the lives that people lead leading those communities are completely different, and there has been very little, i would say, effort to actually relate to people who are like, yeah, they're like people in Mackay who are like working coal mines, like that's their livelihood. You really think that they're going to want to listen to you, like you you know this person coming through telling you like, oh yeah, you need to get you know, you need to get bired, like you need to lose all your income, fuck your kids, fuck the pleasures that you have in life for a bigger purpose, but also include you in the in the in the plane up for what happens afterwards. We're just going to tell you what to do now. Um, Oscar is giving me a bum sup, Like yeah, I just think, yeah, he's yeah. I just think that we have done a really bad job at actually trying to be empathetic and trying to actually relate to people who don't come from Elder's backgrounds Um. And that creates massive in groups, and our groups um huge, like in terms of like I think we were talking about this yesterday. Um, you have this in group, and the in group is like, you know, the people who are climate change is is real and like you anyone who like buys res non reusable straws is going to hell and they get choked by a turtle and like blah blah blah blah blah. And like the thing is they create such an in group where they're like everyone else who doesn't believe this, who they must be idiots, they must be stupid, like oh, you know these bogans, which I hate that word. It's like, no, these people are highly intelligent. It's just that you have absolutely no way of appreciating the sacrifices they're going to make that you don't have to. And when you create these in groups and out groups where everyone in the in group believes they're right, everyone in the out group is to demonized minority, How the hell are you meant to you know, create collaboration on an issue that is, you know, at its core a huge collective action problem. Um, sorry, no, no, it's so it's so like you know, with becoming increasingly more sort of polarized and like we don't want to connect. I know, you know, it's so easy for me to see someone posting something slightly questionable on Facebook or Instagram or something, and um, I'm just like up unfriend and you know, like I know that because of social media, there's like there's all these statistics there's been like an increase in friendships that are like fracturing over politics. Yeah, and you know Facebook, um like literally actively work to polarize users in either direction. They've done all these studies on it. And it's really scary because like, um, so much like particular like like climate deni or climate skeptic arguments often build around mistrust and we just have this, like you said, in group and out group where you don't trust anyone that's outside of your group and it means that we can't sort of connect. And even I saw this like statistic that was like online comments, um, like something written you can dehumanize the writer more than someone speaking in person. So we're having these like online written things that's just like so disconnected and so um sort of alienating to either side. And it really does build on these like in group out group kind of mechanisms that we have built into our brain, and that like you're going to become more and more trusting of the group that may be feeding you misinformation from either side because you relate to them, because you trust them, and become you'll become more hostile to that group who's trying to change your mind, perhaps by humanizing you, because at the end of the day, like we want to maintain our self esteem. And if someone's saying like, oh you climate tonight, you're an idiot, you hate your kids, well what the fuck? Like you don't want to then have to go on and acknowledge in the future that actually you were a climate nil like denialist. You're just going to sink your feed into the sand even more and just try very hard to prove them wrong, because you know, believing what they're saying that you are denying something that is very real, means that you have to agree with all their other arguments and all the other critiques of you as an individual. So I think that that is something that really frustrates me, and I think it's probably why Australia has the most kind of what was the way that you put it, like the most kind of split on either side or polarization because of firstly, huge finite industries that create contribute to climate change, and also huge splits between regional original rule and then city populations as well. But you know, every now and again we're going to come across someone who wants to deny climate change. That's fine with them, they're within their rights. But how do we kind of connect with them? You know, I'm sure you've met people like this before. Do you have any tips now to convince maybe like you're aren't or you're like ex boyfriend's stepdad. Yes, I have. I've definitely, um attempt not attempted to accidentally ruined some extend Christmas dinners over various issues and climate changes is one of you love to see it? Yeah, But um, the sort of key to the whole thing is like connecting over something other than the political issue, so like you can't. I'm like, I watched such a good Ted talk on this and I literally have no clue, Like I hadn't saved it, so I don't know what it's called, but it was just a really good Ted talk saying that, like just research is showing that there are like people do not change their minds unless they have an existing connection with the person that's trying to convince them of something. So I cannot walk into a room with someone that I'm not friends with. Um or actually, like I was handing out pampa, it's for um, it's probably obvious the Greens at a recent election, and um, like a guy who was handing out pamphlets for Clive Palmer came up to me and started like being like it's rained recently. Climate change is another thing, and I was like, oh my god, And I was like I'm not even gonna go anywhere because you just can't, Like people will not change their minds unless you sort of already have a connection, and so it's like you sort of need to just find a common ground first. Um, yeah, which I think you would know about, like psychologists like a shared reality, like we engage with the shared reality. Yeah, it's huge. It's like UM and creating like mutual understanding and it's like humanizing the other person. It's really big in terms of UM getting therapists to trust like therapists use it to get people to trust them as well, and like child psychiatrists and child psychologists. It's huge. Basically, it's like we're on the same playing field, Like we're on you have to have some link to link before you can introduce things that might be counted on what the person already believes. It just makes so much common sense, doesn't it, Like yeah, yeah, it's a huge concept in this Yeah. And then like from then once you have that connection. UM, I was reading about like the success of something called moral reframing, so we know, like just this is a massive generalization obviously, but UM, conservative people tend to be led by values of like tradition, authority, purity, and loyalty. But then you have like UM liberal like lowercase liberal UM, they sort of go for equality, fairness and preventing harm to others. UM. And you know, if you walk into a discussion with someone who's a climate denier and might be conservative and UM, you know, your sort of asking them to change. You know, if you go in with a classic like we're destroying the world, you're asking them to change. It's sort of like change their whole value set, which is like not productive and it's not going to work. But um, this moral reframing thing is sort of talking about like reframing the issue to fit their values. So for example, like like more progressive people would potentially connect because they value like care and harm reduction would connect with their statement like, um, we're destroying and harming our planet and we need to stop, whereas conservatives might more relate to an argument like it's important to keep out air and our oceans clean and pure because that appeals to their values and impurity. And so it's like both things and the same message, you know, like we need to protect the planet, but they're just like shifted to sort of realign with the values and context and history of the person that you're talking to. It's like marketing, basically, you've got to sell the same point just in different packaging. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, which is so true. Do you want to talk about this next bit if you're about what happens if you're not in the in group. Yeah, so, um, like you talked about before, there's definitely this in groups and out groups. But you sort of if you can't necessarily connect, then you need to find someone who's like, um, what I think people refer to is like trusted messengers, like someone that is connected to with both sides. And then also like bringing in I think just most so many conversations need to be like you just need to go in like respecting the other person and just trying to like enjoy it and ask questions and like you learn something from every single person. So if you go in with a really open mind, you're going to come out with like, okay, maybe like you then understand why they believe the things they believe, and then you can shift like the way you speak about things to sort of like realign with like the moral reframing, but realign with you know, Okay, maybe they grew up by a river and you can talk about caring for like a local river and reducing pollution in that river. You know, you can be like if you walk into a conversation that sort of mindset, like you're not going to change their mind overnight, but like small little conversations over and over U will hopefully like maybe shift someone's actions so that you know, both sides can understand the other better. You're absolutely right. And um, for those who kind of may be are skeptical about that, this idea of a trusted messenger, it's used so frequently, think about when celebrities endorsed political candidates. That's oh my god, Yeah, I did not think of that thing. Yeah, yeah, it's massive. It's a big thing that the US was trying to do in terms of vaccine hesitancy right now, getting trusted messengers. So for example Olivia Drigra, But I was also thinking members of a church, not just the church like teenage girl crushes, but like, yeah, like getting trusted members. They also got a Republican. He was like a manager of a bunch of Republican runs for presidents. So he's very well known monks conservative communities specifically specifically the sixties and the ninth I don't know what that was, but people born between the sixties and the nineties, and they got all these like um, what do they call like groups together, focus groups, and they got him to present different arguments, and they found that all the arguments were just as effective because he was a trusted messenger and a lot of people afterwards. And you know, he was very conservative, yes, but he came into it not criticizing, just being like, let's have a discussion, giving them the facts. And he also found that when a family member talk to someone about you know, getting vaccinated or perhaps changing to eco friendly dish soap, whatever small actions, people are most likely to go along with it because they trust their family member has their best intentions at heart. So yeah, it's a huge thing being a trusted messenger or they actually is just so powerful. They actually found that if you teach kids about climate change in schools, you don't like, it's just teaching them about climate change, so there's nothing to do with like how to talk to others or how to talk to your family about this. It's just like I think they were like maybe let's say year eight or something. It was like middle school in the US. They found that kids that learned about climate change their parents down the track were more likely to become more sort of supportive of positive climate action than other children. So yeah, children in particular have a massive impact, which is why I like it's so important to it's so positive to see massive like climate strikes because a lot of those kids, and those kids are hopefully gonna say something and you know, sort of talk to their family about those issues, and it's like you know, they're yeah, it's just absolutely so powerful. This happened with my grandma and she she had the kind of conservative views around climate change, and then all her grandkids started talking to her about it. And I think also when you're related to someone, you know what serves their values the best and what they care about the most. And for her, like I grew up in Crumbin which is like this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful community and you know every year now there's fires one half of the year, floods the other half. It's just natural like these days. And it was like telling her about that and giving her grandkids to explain it to her. That really kind of sunk in. And I think that's like a massive message that we have today is just have conversations with your family and your friends, even if they do believe stuff. You never know who they're going to meet. Who doesn't I know who they're going to talk to, when they're going to talk to, making it a more normalized thing. And it's also just a good way to you know, this is about climate anxiety. It's a really great way to kind of deal with that knowing that there is a collective involved in this, It's not just you, because I feel like sometimes this stuff can feel like you have the way of the world on your hands to make ethical environmental decisions, but it is something that we're all facing together, and that kind of gives me a bit of comfort sometimes knowing that it's I'm not kind of in it alone, and no, I think like just going in and talking to like friends about it can be so rewarding and to just understand that you're not alone and there are people out there that really are so passionate about and there's so much change happening in so many communities, and you know, people that might at first seem like climate you know, denies or whatever might just also be the people that can see and have the best amount of knowledge for like how to really sustainably transition. You know, like there needs to be like I think, yeah, conversations can be so enjoyable because you sort of understand where people are coming from, um and you know, yeah, like when you're talking about your grandma, my Graham, exactly the same like did not believe in climate change, and then the fires came in twenty nineteen, and I just persisted in talking about it at you know, on just an occasional phone call and be like, I'm learning about this, and you know, she believes and climate chationout. So it takes can take years, it can take decades, but I think we you know, it's it's really positive when people connect and sort of yeah, try and tackle things. Yeah. I think that what really kind of similar was because obviously you know this, like me and um, me and my f like survived the bush fires. We like escaped out of Maria during the bush fighters, and it was a really stressful time where we actually weren't sure like whether we were going to like come out alive. And like, I think that something that hasn't really sunk in for me, Like, but looking back at that situation now, I'm like, oh my god, people died like I could have died. Like we were on in the middle of a road, like we could have died. And I think when I told my grandma about that situation and when things were getting really serious, when my family members couldn't get through to us, when they weren't sure whether we've decided to stay or leave. Like I think that was the point where she was like, oh, yeah, this is something that like, you know, I could have fostered grandkid because the actions of you know, of me and not caring about the stuff. So anyhow kind of an emotional way to end it, isn't it. Nay, we love the vulnerability. Yeah, we do love the vulnerability. And I want to say a huge thank you for coming on. We've been talking for like almost an hour, so if you have made it this far, I hope you are educated. Today is one of the most intelligent and just well spoken people I know, and so I really want to thank her again for thank you, Thank you so much for having me anytime, literally anytime. Yeah, Well was a great discussion. It was a great way to end my what day is it? My Thursday? I'm here anytime? Yeah? What day is it? We're in lockdown the day anymore time? Construct it really is the climate change, isn't so? Ye, get out there, get talking your girl in a COVID safe way and with mak with a mask, yes, and gloves and also hands anny, and you're checking care of that. Thank you. But yes, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you want to hear more about some of the things we've been talking about in recent months, feel free to subscribe. You can find me on Apple, Podcast, Spotify, Google, wherever, follow us on Instagram, Follow to Naya if you want, and I'll link some of the articles she mentioned in the show notes. But thanks again to Naa. Thank you. See you guys next week. Hi,