Welcome to the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.

Welcome to the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.

We are now just two months away from a presidential election that will hit Vice President Kamala Harris against former President Donald Trump. But it's worth noting that the former president has never conceded after losing the last election. The transfer of power happened just weeks after the US capital was stormed on January sixth, twenty twenty one, as Congress was preparing to certify the results of the election. So what if something like that were to happen again, No concession, claims of fraud, an attack on the Capitol, but this time a split in military allegiances as well. That's the topic of the new documentary film Wargame, which was released in theaters this month. In it, a number of former military and government officials played different parts in a real time simulation of a January sixth style disruption.

We are now just two months away from a presidential election that will hit Vice President Kamala Harris against former President Donald Trump. But it's worth noting that the former president has never conceded after losing the last election. The transfer of power happened just weeks after the US capital was stormed on January sixth, twenty twenty one, as Congress was preparing to certify the results of the election. So what if something like that were to happen again, No concession, claims of fraud, an attack on the Capitol, but this time a split in military allegiances as well. That's the topic of the new documentary film Wargame, which was released in theaters this month. In it, a number of former military and government officials played different parts in a real time simulation of a January sixth style disruption.

Mister President, I do think is going to potentially escalate.

Mister President, I do think is going to potentially escalate.

Rapid if we over react. I think it's going to come back and it'll haunt your entire presidency. But we want to be ready if we need to react.

Rapid if we over react. I think it's going to come back and it'll haunt your entire presidency. But we want to be ready if we need to react.

My understanding is they've already breached to the point of being trespassers. I think that what you need, mister President, with all due deference to the secretary, and I completely understand what you're saying. I think what the public saw in twenty twenty one was underreaction. I don't think anyone is anticipating we need the full strength of the military, but we have to respond so we don't have a repeat of what happened in twenty twenty one.

My understanding is they've already breached to the point of being trespassers. I think that what you need, mister President, with all due deference to the secretary, and I completely understand what you're saying. I think what the public saw in twenty twenty one was underreaction. I don't think anyone is anticipating we need the full strength of the military, but we have to respond so we don't have a repeat of what happened in twenty twenty one.

Since the film's debut at the Sundance Film Festival earlier this year, a number of things have happened that make it even more relevant. In March, the Supreme Court ruled that states cannot bar Trump from the ballot over his involvement in the events of January sixth. The court later ruled that presidents have substantial immunity from prosecution for official acts. Then, last month, Trump survived an assassination attempt that ratcheted up fears of political violence and escalation. So to the new documentary War Game, which puts a number of former military and political leaders in a simulation about another January sixth.

Since the film's debut at the Sundance Film Festival earlier this year, a number of things have happened that make it even more relevant. In March, the Supreme Court ruled that states cannot bar Trump from the ballot over his involvement in the events of January sixth. The court later ruled that presidents have substantial immunity from prosecution for official acts. Then, last month, Trump survived an assassination attempt that ratcheted up fears of political violence and escalation. So to the new documentary War Game, which puts a number of former military and political leaders in a simulation about another January sixth.

They all play different roles.

They all play different roles.

Former Montana Governor Steve Bullock plays the president who has just won a close election, but his rival says the election was a fraud. Former North Dakota Senator Heidi Hidekamp is the president's senior advisor and so on. The film was directed by Tony Gerber and Jesse Moss and was the brainchild of the Vet Voice Foundation, who CEO, Jenessa Goldbeck, is a Marine Corps veteran herself. I started our conversation at the Sundance Film Festival by asking Goldbeck where the idea for wargame came from.

Former Montana Governor Steve Bullock plays the president who has just won a close election, but his rival says the election was a fraud. Former North Dakota Senator Heidi Hidekamp is the president's senior advisor and so on. The film was directed by Tony Gerber and Jesse Moss and was the brainchild of the Vet Voice Foundation, who CEO, Jenessa Goldbeck, is a Marine Corps veteran herself. I started our conversation at the Sundance Film Festival by asking Goldbeck where the idea for wargame came from.

We had three retired generals Pennanopped and the Washington Post after January sixth, twenty twenty one, and they were all advisors to our foundation. We are a national, nonpartisan organization that represents over a million and a half veterans and military families across the country. And one of their recommendations was for the administration to do an exercise like this. This is a very standard way of training in the military, to do an exercise where you game out situations and vulnerabilities that you could be exposed to. And we realized we had the network to put on an exercise like this ourselves, to do it in a nonpartisan manner, to involve administration officials from the last five presidential administrations from both parties, people who are deeply concerned because the reality is that, as I said in the clip, the alarms are flashing red. There is an increasing amount of extremism in this country. And the military is a microcosm of our society. So when you have folks who are well trained, who understand how to seed violence and create discord and division, and they also have military training, it becomes an extremely challenging and frightening scenario. So we really wanted to see what happens if there's another contested election. But this time rogue elements of the military participated.

We had three retired generals Pennanopped and the Washington Post after January sixth, twenty twenty one, and they were all advisors to our foundation. We are a national, nonpartisan organization that represents over a million and a half veterans and military families across the country. And one of their recommendations was for the administration to do an exercise like this. This is a very standard way of training in the military, to do an exercise where you game out situations and vulnerabilities that you could be exposed to. And we realized we had the network to put on an exercise like this ourselves, to do it in a nonpartisan manner, to involve administration officials from the last five presidential administrations from both parties, people who are deeply concerned because the reality is that, as I said in the clip, the alarms are flashing red. There is an increasing amount of extremism in this country. And the military is a microcosm of our society. So when you have folks who are well trained, who understand how to seed violence and create discord and division, and they also have military training, it becomes an extremely challenging and frightening scenario. So we really wanted to see what happens if there's another contested election. But this time rogue elements of the military participated.

And I said, you're a Marine Corps veteran. Is there something in your background that you saw people that you thought maybe they would go rogue in this way or is this just something that a fear that existed.

And I said, you're a Marine Corps veteran. Is there something in your background that you saw people that you thought maybe they would go rogue in this way or is this just something that a fear that existed.

Well, we know that military veterans were overrepresented in the folks who participated in the insurrection on January sixth. We know that extremism is a rising problem in our active duty forces. There have been multiple studies that examine this issue. You know, when you're serving in the military, you're serving in a nonpartisan manner. You may have your own political beliefs and values. That's one of the great beauties of the institution is that people from all walks of life can come together and achieve a common cause. But when we have these elements in our society that are now believing that actually committing violence and trying to overthrow the duly elected US government is patriotic, that's a pretty big challenge for us to tackle. And I think the military has acknowledged that it is an issue, but there are many things that they still could do.

Well, we know that military veterans were overrepresented in the folks who participated in the insurrection on January sixth. We know that extremism is a rising problem in our active duty forces. There have been multiple studies that examine this issue. You know, when you're serving in the military, you're serving in a nonpartisan manner. You may have your own political beliefs and values. That's one of the great beauties of the institution is that people from all walks of life can come together and achieve a common cause. But when we have these elements in our society that are now believing that actually committing violence and trying to overthrow the duly elected US government is patriotic, that's a pretty big challenge for us to tackle. And I think the military has acknowledged that it is an issue, but there are many things that they still could do.

Jesse Moss, you're one of the directors and a producer as well.

Jesse Moss, you're one of the directors and a producer as well.

Why make this into a film? Who is it for?

Why make this into a film? Who is it for?

Well, first and foremost to confront questions that I have. That's where start as a filmmaker. How do I make sense of what happened on January six and what is our political future? Bringing together these experienced public servants, they were asked to improvise their roles and their words based on their lived experience, and that was the exciting combination that we saw. This was documentary, live, improvisational theater, dystopian science fiction, and political thriller all at once. And what kind of film would it be? What kind of story could we tell? And could we invite people to a conversation about what we all care about, which is our country, our institutions, our values.

Well, first and foremost to confront questions that I have. That's where start as a filmmaker. How do I make sense of what happened on January six and what is our political future? Bringing together these experienced public servants, they were asked to improvise their roles and their words based on their lived experience, and that was the exciting combination that we saw. This was documentary, live, improvisational theater, dystopian science fiction, and political thriller all at once. And what kind of film would it be? What kind of story could we tell? And could we invite people to a conversation about what we all care about, which is our country, our institutions, our values.

Tony Gerber, you're also a director of this film.

Tony Gerber, you're also a director of this film.

The issue of how to portray January six has become very polarizing. Was it an insurrection? Was it a rebellion? Was it an event?

The issue of how to portray January six has become very polarizing. Was it an insurrection? Was it a rebellion? Was it an event?

Was it, as Donald Trump says, a tourist visit gone wrong.

Was it, as Donald Trump says, a tourist visit gone wrong.

He's now referring, though, to people who were convicted as hostages January six hostages. How do you keep this film from being seen as political when such a large portion of this country doesn't even want to think about January sixth anymore.

He's now referring, though, to people who were convicted as hostages January six hostages. How do you keep this film from being seen as political when such a large portion of this country doesn't even want to think about January sixth anymore.

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I can tell you that, you know, famously, Francis Ford Coppolas said that a movie gets written three times, first time in the writing, second time in the shooting, third time in the editing. In the case of our documentary, the fourth time will be when.

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I can tell you that, you know, famously, Francis Ford Coppolas said that a movie gets written three times, first time in the writing, second time in the shooting, third time in the editing. In the case of our documentary, the fourth time will be when.

It's released into the world.

It's released into the world.

Right. But I can tell you that in making this film, we really leaned away from the potential for the story of this war game and our film to be spun by QAnon voices.

Right. But I can tell you that in making this film, we really leaned away from the potential for the story of this war game and our film to be spun by QAnon voices.

For example.

For example.

You know, it's important that this film brings people together. It's not a look back at the last January sixth, it's a look forward, and it's a film that's really intended not just to remind folks of a potential nightmare, but to also bring hope right and belief in our political system and our institutions.

You know, it's important that this film brings people together. It's not a look back at the last January sixth, it's a look forward, and it's a film that's really intended not just to remind folks of a potential nightmare, but to also bring hope right and belief in our political system and our institutions.

It is a very different time now, though, than it was when you made this film. Donald Trump is almost certain to be the nominee of the Republican Party again for president. He has said he should be immune from prosecution even if he crosses a line. He has said he wants to be a dictator on day one. Do you think the film should be seen in a different light now than when you filmed it.

It is a very different time now, though, than it was when you made this film. Donald Trump is almost certain to be the nominee of the Republican Party again for president. He has said he should be immune from prosecution even if he crosses a line. He has said he wants to be a dictator on day one. Do you think the film should be seen in a different light now than when you filmed it.

I wish that it were less relevant in some way. But it's true that Trump was on the periphery when we began this project. But we know that the threats that this exercise in this film confront go beyond one person. They are a kind of cancer in our country and a division that you talked about, and now I think that, regardless of the outcome of the twenty twenty four election, this is a problem that persists within the military and the military's role its functioned as this bulwark of our democracy, something we take for granted is something we have to talk about to foresee the unforseeable. It's sometimes hard to look at those things, but we have a responsibility to and it's our job as filmmakers on it in an inventive and creative way to bring you to that conversation.

I wish that it were less relevant in some way. But it's true that Trump was on the periphery when we began this project. But we know that the threats that this exercise in this film confront go beyond one person. They are a kind of cancer in our country and a division that you talked about, and now I think that, regardless of the outcome of the twenty twenty four election, this is a problem that persists within the military and the military's role its functioned as this bulwark of our democracy, something we take for granted is something we have to talk about to foresee the unforseeable. It's sometimes hard to look at those things, but we have a responsibility to and it's our job as filmmakers on it in an inventive and creative way to bring you to that conversation.

Governor Steve Bullock, you're what I think we could call a moderate former governor of Montana. What is your sense of how the average American people in your state view the events of January sixth and how worried they are about it today.

Governor Steve Bullock, you're what I think we could call a moderate former governor of Montana. What is your sense of how the average American people in your state view the events of January sixth and how worried they are about it today.

There was a poll nationally that said a quarter of Americans think that January sixth was incited by the FBI. You look at it right now, there's one hundred and seventy one members of Congress, one third representing thirty seven states that say that are election deniers.

There was a poll nationally that said a quarter of Americans think that January sixth was incited by the FBI. You look at it right now, there's one hundred and seventy one members of Congress, one third representing thirty seven states that say that are election deniers.

Well, something like sixty six percent of Republicans in the Iowa Caucus has believed that Biden was not a legitimate president.

Well, something like sixty six percent of Republicans in the Iowa Caucus has believed that Biden was not a legitimate president.

So, yeah, where are we today in Montana? We're all across the country. We're at a very dangerous point. And I think the idea of the film isn't to look backwards is to look forward. The notion that literally twenty five percent of Americans think the FBI created this in January sixth is such a challenge that needs to be discussed, and it doesn't need to be discussed necessarily just in Washington. C right needs to be discussed in communities all across red and blue, because this isn't about politics, right, this is about a country and norms and a rule of law that we all expect.

So, yeah, where are we today in Montana? We're all across the country. We're at a very dangerous point. And I think the idea of the film isn't to look backwards is to look forward. The notion that literally twenty five percent of Americans think the FBI created this in January sixth is such a challenge that needs to be discussed, and it doesn't need to be discussed necessarily just in Washington. C right needs to be discussed in communities all across red and blue, because this isn't about politics, right, this is about a country and norms and a rule of law that we all expect.

What do you think, Senator Heidihydekemp, You also would be considered a moderate. You represented North Dakota and the Senate. Are your neighbors in North Dakota worried about this?

What do you think, Senator Heidihydekemp, You also would be considered a moderate. You represented North Dakota and the Senate. Are your neighbors in North Dakota worried about this?

Should they be?

Should they be?

No?

No?

I think that one of the reasons why this film is so important is denial. The country's in denial, right, so we deny that it even happened. That was like a tourism problem that was incited by the FBI. But these people are hostages, and so there's no consistency in how we're looking at it, and that's why so important. We found out that after the January sixth committee hearings that people started understanding and appreciating because they saw it on television Prime time, and they watched it and it reignited the feelings that they felt on January sixth, which was horror about what was happening in our country. That then gives it there's a period of gaslighting that goes on that really wasn't that bad. Those folks are patriots, blah blah blah. We have to have events like this movie to remind people. So that's why the movie is important. The biggest enemy of protection of the democracy is people saying can never happen again. I'm not saying it's probable that it could happen again. Is it possible? Absolutely, When people believe that somehow along the way something has been taken from them, that there is a rigged system and they can't even appreciate the fairness of their elections, I want to make just one point of optimism. I watched the twenty twenty two midterms holding my breath because a lot of the people on the ballot were selected by Donald Trump. And the question was were those people when they lost, going to deny the election results? All but one they all conceded. And so that's a bit of optimism. And so when we create the idea that the norm has to be established of understanding and realizing that our elections are fair. They achieve a result that promotes democracy. But if we deny that, it could happen again. Guess what we're unprepared for? What could happen?

I think that one of the reasons why this film is so important is denial. The country's in denial, right, so we deny that it even happened. That was like a tourism problem that was incited by the FBI. But these people are hostages, and so there's no consistency in how we're looking at it, and that's why so important. We found out that after the January sixth committee hearings that people started understanding and appreciating because they saw it on television Prime time, and they watched it and it reignited the feelings that they felt on January sixth, which was horror about what was happening in our country. That then gives it there's a period of gaslighting that goes on that really wasn't that bad. Those folks are patriots, blah blah blah. We have to have events like this movie to remind people. So that's why the movie is important. The biggest enemy of protection of the democracy is people saying can never happen again. I'm not saying it's probable that it could happen again. Is it possible? Absolutely, When people believe that somehow along the way something has been taken from them, that there is a rigged system and they can't even appreciate the fairness of their elections, I want to make just one point of optimism. I watched the twenty twenty two midterms holding my breath because a lot of the people on the ballot were selected by Donald Trump. And the question was were those people when they lost, going to deny the election results? All but one they all conceded. And so that's a bit of optimism. And so when we create the idea that the norm has to be established of understanding and realizing that our elections are fair. They achieve a result that promotes democracy. But if we deny that, it could happen again. Guess what we're unprepared for? What could happen?

That was former North Dakota Senator Heidi Hydekamp speaking with me as part of a panel at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah. She plays the president's senior advisor in the documentary film Wargame. In just a moment, we'll hear from more members of the panel, including retired Army lieutenant colonel and Trump whistleblower Alexander Vindman, about the issue of a split in military loyalty.

That was former North Dakota Senator Heidi Hydekamp speaking with me as part of a panel at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah. She plays the president's senior advisor in the documentary film Wargame. In just a moment, we'll hear from more members of the panel, including retired Army lieutenant colonel and Trump whistleblower Alexander Vindman, about the issue of a split in military loyalty.

Stay with us.

Stay with us.

More of the middle coming up. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Over the last several months, we've tackled a number of topics, from healthcare and the media, to inflation to the ongoing wars in Gaza and Ukraine. All of those topics have come up and will come up in this presidential election year. But the fact that we vote on those issues and can have a say in what our government does about them is based on the idea of a democracy that listens to its citizens and respects their will at the ballot box. The film Wargame puts former military and government officials in a simulation in which there's another January sixth style riot at the US capital and there are split allegiances in the military. In one part of the film, Rogue, members of the military take over McDill Air Force Base in Florida as the US capital is being attacked. Former Senator Doug Jones, who plays the Attorney General, alert Steve Bullock, who plays the president.

More of the middle coming up. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Over the last several months, we've tackled a number of topics, from healthcare and the media, to inflation to the ongoing wars in Gaza and Ukraine. All of those topics have come up and will come up in this presidential election year. But the fact that we vote on those issues and can have a say in what our government does about them is based on the idea of a democracy that listens to its citizens and respects their will at the ballot box. The film Wargame puts former military and government officials in a simulation in which there's another January sixth style riot at the US capital and there are split allegiances in the military. In one part of the film, Rogue, members of the military take over McDill Air Force Base in Florida as the US capital is being attacked. Former Senator Doug Jones, who plays the Attorney General, alert Steve Bullock, who plays the president.

Mister President, we're picking up intercepted chatter among military that they're taking what happened at McDill and now they're trying to spread that to other bases.

Mister President, we're picking up intercepted chatter among military that they're taking what happened at McDill and now they're trying to spread that to other bases.

How many soldiers are McDill.

How many soldiers are McDill.

Twelve that have gone rogue is what I understood, Not that many. These are twelve, you know, gung ho killers out there who decided to take it in their own hands. You got two four star generals down there.

Twelve that have gone rogue is what I understood, Not that many. These are twelve, you know, gung ho killers out there who decided to take it in their own hands. You got two four star generals down there.

The concern we're getting is the chatter that this may spread, and y'all need to be aware of that.

The concern we're getting is the chatter that this may spread, and y'all need to be aware of that.

As we continued our conversation at the Sundance Film Festival in Utah, I asked retired Army Major General Linda Singh, who plays the chief of the National Guard Bureau in the film, how realistic a split in the military is.

As we continued our conversation at the Sundance Film Festival in Utah, I asked retired Army Major General Linda Singh, who plays the chief of the National Guard Bureau in the film, how realistic a split in the military is.

The answer is, you know, the military is a microcosm and we heard Danesa say that of society. So for us to think that it could not happen in the military, then we're putting our heads in the sand. Right, We're just saying we're definitely in denial. And I think you know, what we have to pay attention to is that, you know, we recruit from everywhere in the country, and so if we're bringing in individuals that come from all walks of life, you have to understand that we're going to get individuals in the forces that will represent things that we wouldn't see just bringing them in from an enlisted perspective, right when we bring them in to the door. And so even you know, when I think about, you know, how we have this exercise and how things were playing out. You know, I was at the forefront of the civil disturbance in Baltimore. We talked about this very issue. We talked about what was going on across the country. So to think that you know, it's not going to happen that it doesn't exist. I think that we're missing the point.

The answer is, you know, the military is a microcosm and we heard Danesa say that of society. So for us to think that it could not happen in the military, then we're putting our heads in the sand. Right, We're just saying we're definitely in denial. And I think you know, what we have to pay attention to is that, you know, we recruit from everywhere in the country, and so if we're bringing in individuals that come from all walks of life, you have to understand that we're going to get individuals in the forces that will represent things that we wouldn't see just bringing them in from an enlisted perspective, right when we bring them in to the door. And so even you know, when I think about, you know, how we have this exercise and how things were playing out. You know, I was at the forefront of the civil disturbance in Baltimore. We talked about this very issue. We talked about what was going on across the country. So to think that you know, it's not going to happen that it doesn't exist. I think that we're missing the point.

What happens when that does happen? Is there?

What happens when that does happen? Is there?

How is that dealt with? When there's when you find out that somebody is being disloyal in the military.

How is that dealt with? When there's when you find out that somebody is being disloyal in the military.

Well, I mean, you know, first off, we do have systems in place. But this is where true leadership has to come into place, right, I mean, this is not about you know, oh, I have to protect my soldiers, I have to protect my airmen. No, this is where true leadership comes into place, and leaders within the organization you need to tamp down on that very quickly. If you don't tamp down on it and deal with it, then it is going to be pervasive and it will ruin just the overall kind of togetherness, teamwork, everything within the organization. And so what I think is really really challenging is sometimes leaders are afraid to tamp down on it because I want to get my recruitment numbers. And we have to say, okay, are we going to let this actually run rampant through our organization or are we going to worry about recruitment numbers?

Well, I mean, you know, first off, we do have systems in place. But this is where true leadership has to come into place, right, I mean, this is not about you know, oh, I have to protect my soldiers, I have to protect my airmen. No, this is where true leadership comes into place, and leaders within the organization you need to tamp down on that very quickly. If you don't tamp down on it and deal with it, then it is going to be pervasive and it will ruin just the overall kind of togetherness, teamwork, everything within the organization. And so what I think is really really challenging is sometimes leaders are afraid to tamp down on it because I want to get my recruitment numbers. And we have to say, okay, are we going to let this actually run rampant through our organization or are we going to worry about recruitment numbers?

So is that a bigger problem?

So is that a bigger problem?

Now?

Now?

Is there a bigger problem with recruitment so people are being brought in that may be a problem down the road.

Is there a bigger problem with recruitment so people are being brought in that may be a problem down the road.

I think it's a bigger problem now because we've not only seen where they're allowed to be able to kind of share this voice and show up in places where they shouldn't even in uniform, right, but even through the pandemic, we've watched uniform members say well, I'm not going to get a vaccine.

I think it's a bigger problem now because we've not only seen where they're allowed to be able to kind of share this voice and show up in places where they shouldn't even in uniform, right, but even through the pandemic, we've watched uniform members say well, I'm not going to get a vaccine.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

The military is the most vaccinated force there is, which you're not going to get a vaccine. And so I think that we're seeing it more and more now, and we need to deal with how are we going to recruit, how are we going to retain, and how are.

The military is the most vaccinated force there is, which you're not going to get a vaccine. And so I think that we're seeing it more and more now, and we need to deal with how are we going to recruit, how are we going to retain, and how are.

We going to discipline?

We going to discipline?

And we can't be afraid.

And we can't be afraid.

To kind of talk about those things.

To kind of talk about those things.

But of course, in this film and in this exercise, it all has to be done very very quickly. You don't have a long time to figure that out. Alex Vinman, you are a retired Army lieutenant colonel who was director for European Affairs for the National Security Council. Do you think that any sort of coup style split is likely in today's climate?

But of course, in this film and in this exercise, it all has to be done very very quickly. You don't have a long time to figure that out. Alex Vinman, you are a retired Army lieutenant colonel who was director for European Affairs for the National Security Council. Do you think that any sort of coup style split is likely in today's climate?

So I think we came up with a scenario that we thought was about as realistic as you can get. If we look at the numbers of folks that were pushed out of the military for refusing to take their vaccinations, there were four thousand of those. Another portion that ended up taking the vaccines, but they were very reluctant about it and have now have hard feelings and are probably further radicalized than they were four years ago when this first unfolded. I think the fact is that it doesn't really take a huge number of military to cause chaos. We looked mainly at national guard units, reserves, folks that are really part of the tapestry of their societies more so than the folks that are active duty day to day. Serving in that kind of environment between law enforcement, reserves, national guard, I think there is a real possibility of radicalized elements coming up in states and attempting to interfere with certification of elections, and then even I think within the national the active duty force, that's a threat.

So I think we came up with a scenario that we thought was about as realistic as you can get. If we look at the numbers of folks that were pushed out of the military for refusing to take their vaccinations, there were four thousand of those. Another portion that ended up taking the vaccines, but they were very reluctant about it and have now have hard feelings and are probably further radicalized than they were four years ago when this first unfolded. I think the fact is that it doesn't really take a huge number of military to cause chaos. We looked mainly at national guard units, reserves, folks that are really part of the tapestry of their societies more so than the folks that are active duty day to day. Serving in that kind of environment between law enforcement, reserves, national guard, I think there is a real possibility of radicalized elements coming up in states and attempting to interfere with certification of elections, and then even I think within the national the active duty force, that's a threat.

Now.

Now.

I am a big believer in the values army values and the integrity of the military, and the vast majority will live up to their obligations ninety seven, ninety eight, ninety nine percent will do that, But it doesn't really take a huge amount, and we need to be prepared for it. That's why this wargame was so critically important to to harden us for a future scenario.

I am a big believer in the values army values and the integrity of the military, and the vast majority will live up to their obligations ninety seven, ninety eight, ninety nine percent will do that, But it doesn't really take a huge amount, and we need to be prepared for it. That's why this wargame was so critically important to to harden us for a future scenario.

Is it about the information that they're getting? I mean, is it just about disinformation? Misinformation that is making them, when they've decided to go into a career in the military, be disloyal to the constitution.

Is it about the information that they're getting? I mean, is it just about disinformation? Misinformation that is making them, when they've decided to go into a career in the military, be disloyal to the constitution.

So that's that's why I think this may be at least my perception is that this is a bigger threat in the National Guard and the Reserve, where you're not your day in, day out life is not within the institution of the military, which does have kind of a moderating, kind of homogenizing effect. You don't get as many radicals coming out of that segment. There are, but just maybe not as money. Now, the folks that do this on a less habitual basis, they're part of the they're communities that are radicalized, They're part of the information loops that are being targeted by the MAGA movement by foreign empties on a day to day basis and don't have that moderating force from the rest of the Malti carry. Those folks are just susceptible and from my standpoint, producing something like wargame, the exercise that we did, the reports that we wrote, sharing that with the government is important, but it's frankly much more important to be able to share this with society at large, not just the interested parties in Washington, d C. But frankly with the rest of the country that may have different perceptions and needs to be alert to these threats.

So that's that's why I think this may be at least my perception is that this is a bigger threat in the National Guard and the Reserve, where you're not your day in, day out life is not within the institution of the military, which does have kind of a moderating, kind of homogenizing effect. You don't get as many radicals coming out of that segment. There are, but just maybe not as money. Now, the folks that do this on a less habitual basis, they're part of the they're communities that are radicalized, They're part of the information loops that are being targeted by the MAGA movement by foreign empties on a day to day basis and don't have that moderating force from the rest of the Malti carry. Those folks are just susceptible and from my standpoint, producing something like wargame, the exercise that we did, the reports that we wrote, sharing that with the government is important, but it's frankly much more important to be able to share this with society at large, not just the interested parties in Washington, d C. But frankly with the rest of the country that may have different perceptions and needs to be alert to these threats.

A lot of our listeners know who you are.

A lot of our listeners know who you are.

You were seen as a hero by many when you blew the whistle on former President Trump and his phone call to the Ukrainian president. You've now been vilified on the right. You are an actual victim of this polarization in this country. How did that play into your experience in doing this wargame?

You were seen as a hero by many when you blew the whistle on former President Trump and his phone call to the Ukrainian president. You've now been vilified on the right. You are an actual victim of this polarization in this country. How did that play into your experience in doing this wargame?

So I've been part of the Voice Foundation and Vote Vets really just about since the moment I left the military service, and the reason I made that decision in the first place is it was in uniform, on active duty, I was vilified and demonized by the Trump administration and the far right, and I couldn't really do anything because in the military, I'm bound by the uniform Code of Military Justice. I couldn't defend myself. Once I was forced out by the Trump administration, the gloves were off and they did that to themselves. So immediately I took the opportunity to punch back. I wrote about my experiences with the Trump administration. My wife and I had ended up participating in some ads indicating the threat that Donald Trump poses to our democracy. Tried to be impactful in twenty twenty, and I see it as a commitment to make sure that other public servants are not demonized and ulified the way I am. And I've been given a voice and I'm going to use it in a constructive way.

So I've been part of the Voice Foundation and Vote Vets really just about since the moment I left the military service, and the reason I made that decision in the first place is it was in uniform, on active duty, I was vilified and demonized by the Trump administration and the far right, and I couldn't really do anything because in the military, I'm bound by the uniform Code of Military Justice. I couldn't defend myself. Once I was forced out by the Trump administration, the gloves were off and they did that to themselves. So immediately I took the opportunity to punch back. I wrote about my experiences with the Trump administration. My wife and I had ended up participating in some ads indicating the threat that Donald Trump poses to our democracy. Tried to be impactful in twenty twenty, and I see it as a commitment to make sure that other public servants are not demonized and ulified the way I am. And I've been given a voice and I'm going to use it in a constructive way.

So simple, Chris Jones, you are also a former marine.

So simple, Chris Jones, you are also a former marine.

You actually placed someone in this film who is not loyal to the Constitution. Let's take a listen to another clip from the film and talk about it on the other side.

You actually placed someone in this film who is not loyal to the Constitution. Let's take a listen to another clip from the film and talk about it on the other side.

A new video has been released on social media by the heads of the so called Order of Columbus, the extremist group which has a long challenged the legitimacy of the US government. Retired Army Lieutenant General Roger Simms, who the Order refers to as the Patriarch, is claiming to have evidence of a stolen election and the group is backing those members of the military who have appeared to have gone rogue. Now, this video was released just a short time ago. We're going to play it for you. A word of warning, some of what you'll hear is disturbing.

A new video has been released on social media by the heads of the so called Order of Columbus, the extremist group which has a long challenged the legitimacy of the US government. Retired Army Lieutenant General Roger Simms, who the Order refers to as the Patriarch, is claiming to have evidence of a stolen election and the group is backing those members of the military who have appeared to have gone rogue. Now, this video was released just a short time ago. We're going to play it for you. A word of warning, some of what you'll hear is disturbing.

We have undertaken an extensive investigation of the twenty twenty four election, and it is Hatham who is attempting a coup to consolidate his illegitimate power and eliminate our god given freedoms.

We have undertaken an extensive investigation of the twenty twenty four election, and it is Hatham who is attempting a coup to consolidate his illegitimate power and eliminate our god given freedoms.

So the Red Cell is motivated not just by a failed candidate trying to steal the presidency, but also by a religious figure, someone with military experience who comes with a lot of credibility, like former General Michael Flint, a convicted felon who spent his career fighting against insurgencies. It is not unrealistic that figures like him it could play roles in an attack.

So the Red Cell is motivated not just by a failed candidate trying to steal the presidency, but also by a religious figure, someone with military experience who comes with a lot of credibility, like former General Michael Flint, a convicted felon who spent his career fighting against insurgencies. It is not unrealistic that figures like him it could play roles in an attack.

Those of you who are feeling weak tonight, those of you that don't have an all fire in your body, get some tonight, because tomorrow wee the people are gonna be here, and we want you to know that we will not stand for a lie. We will not stand for a lie.

Those of you who are feeling weak tonight, those of you that don't have an all fire in your body, get some tonight, because tomorrow wee the people are gonna be here, and we want you to know that we will not stand for a lie. We will not stand for a lie.

A figure like that can be used to help recruit Americans into a belief system that justifies violence against other Americans to achieve political goals, which is the definition of terrority.

A figure like that can be used to help recruit Americans into a belief system that justifies violence against other Americans to achieve political goals, which is the definition of terrority.

Chris Jones, give our audience a sense of your role in this and the Red Cell and what that is.

Chris Jones, give our audience a sense of your role in this and the Red Cell and what that is.

The guy you saw talking, Chris Goldsmith, was leading myself and two other folks. And you know, when when we first got involved with this, the thing he had us set out to do was, you know, we look at the far right full time. We do a lot of work, you know, investigating and interdiction stuff, and so we just had this massive body of evidence of all these ingredients that you could use that that already exist. And so you know a lot of our prep for this was literally going through every single you know, not just organizations, but but you know, mechanical things that you would need to conduct the types of attacks that happened in the war game, you know, and show that like we're not. There's very little imagination involved in our preparation for this. It was you know, this already exists, this sentiment already exists, these organizations already exist, and then our job was really to you know, not just play out these things occurring in real time, but you know, generating a lot of misinformation, disinformation and.

The guy you saw talking, Chris Goldsmith, was leading myself and two other folks. And you know, when when we first got involved with this, the thing he had us set out to do was, you know, we look at the far right full time. We do a lot of work, you know, investigating and interdiction stuff, and so we just had this massive body of evidence of all these ingredients that you could use that that already exist. And so you know a lot of our prep for this was literally going through every single you know, not just organizations, but but you know, mechanical things that you would need to conduct the types of attacks that happened in the war game, you know, and show that like we're not. There's very little imagination involved in our preparation for this. It was you know, this already exists, this sentiment already exists, these organizations already exist, and then our job was really to you know, not just play out these things occurring in real time, but you know, generating a lot of misinformation, disinformation and.

A lot of it in a very low tech way, like you're sending out basically the equivalent of a tweet.

A lot of it in a very low tech way, like you're sending out basically the equivalent of a tweet.

Right right, and there's like a simulated social media space, and we were you know, when you watch this stuff in real life, you really kind of unfortunately get a knack for knowing how to do it yourself. And so yeah, I mean we had a very low five video editing software and that was probably the most advanced tool that we had to use. But you know, we also made a point to go around to the physical locations and show that, you know, this isn't you know, a scenario that someone's cooking up Tom Clancy style. Is like, we went to this place and showed that this is how long it would take us to do these things.

Right right, and there's like a simulated social media space, and we were you know, when you watch this stuff in real life, you really kind of unfortunately get a knack for knowing how to do it yourself. And so yeah, I mean we had a very low five video editing software and that was probably the most advanced tool that we had to use. But you know, we also made a point to go around to the physical locations and show that, you know, this isn't you know, a scenario that someone's cooking up Tom Clancy style. Is like, we went to this place and showed that this is how long it would take us to do these things.

You were actually on Capitol Hill on January sixth, documenting what was happening.

You were actually on Capitol Hill on January sixth, documenting what was happening.

What did you see there?

What did you see there?

Oh man?

Oh man?

I mean, you know, that was like the worst day of my life in a lot of ways. But I think the thing that in hindsight really struck me was that this was, in a lot of ways the perfect storm of you know, most of the folks were there who were you know, attacking police journal with all this stuff. You know, they they're suburban soccer moms and dads, and the right people had been given a large enough platform, and the right types of narratives that really emotionally appealed have been deployed so effectively, and the right financial sources have been deployed that day to move all of those people there. That people that if you put a gun into their hand and said do you want to shoot the President would say no, whether they've disagree with or not, We're more than willing to become violent and use that.

I mean, you know, that was like the worst day of my life in a lot of ways. But I think the thing that in hindsight really struck me was that this was, in a lot of ways the perfect storm of you know, most of the folks were there who were you know, attacking police journal with all this stuff. You know, they they're suburban soccer moms and dads, and the right people had been given a large enough platform, and the right types of narratives that really emotionally appealed have been deployed so effectively, and the right financial sources have been deployed that day to move all of those people there. That people that if you put a gun into their hand and said do you want to shoot the President would say no, whether they've disagree with or not, We're more than willing to become violent and use that.

Why is that? What did you learn about?

Why is that? What did you learn about?

Not the Proud Boys, but just ordinary people who took part that day? Broke the windows, went in, or at least went in after the window was broken, into the Capitol.

Not the Proud Boys, but just ordinary people who took part that day? Broke the windows, went in, or at least went in after the window was broken, into the Capitol.

Why did they do that?

Why did they do that?

You know, I've looked at this stuff long enough and have been involved in enough other you know, insurgencies and stuff like that to know that we're not that special, right that it does not take a lot to turn somebody who's never done anything violent into part of a island insurrection. You know, I think that.

You know, I've looked at this stuff long enough and have been involved in enough other you know, insurgencies and stuff like that to know that we're not that special, right that it does not take a lot to turn somebody who's never done anything violent into part of a island insurrection. You know, I think that.

You really saw.

You really saw.

How close we are, and I think My biggest thing was that, you know, underneath all of these decisions these people were making, we're very real. You know, we talk a lot about real and perceived grievances. There is something that these people were legitimately upset about.

How close we are, and I think My biggest thing was that, you know, underneath all of these decisions these people were making, we're very real. You know, we talk a lot about real and perceived grievances. There is something that these people were legitimately upset about.

And the only media or.

And the only media or.

You know, social way to engage with those things, in political ways, to engage with those things that they felt they had access to, was waiting for the President to say, go to the Capitol and tear it down.

You know, social way to engage with those things, in political ways, to engage with those things that they felt they had access to, was waiting for the President to say, go to the Capitol and tear it down.

Elizabeth Newman lety bring you you in you.

Elizabeth Newman lety bring you you in you.

You served in the Trump administration as Assistant Secretary for counter Terrorism and Threat Prevention in the Department of Homeland Security. You've got a new book out called Kingdom of Rage, The Rise of Christian Extremism. In the Path Back to Peace, you raised alarms about the threat of domestic terrorism.

You served in the Trump administration as Assistant Secretary for counter Terrorism and Threat Prevention in the Department of Homeland Security. You've got a new book out called Kingdom of Rage, The Rise of Christian Extremism. In the Path Back to Peace, you raised alarms about the threat of domestic terrorism.

What is the root cause of it? Do you think?

What is the root cause of it? Do you think?

So that would take much longer than we have time for. But in a nutshell, our country has dealt with domestic terrorism probably since our founding. There's an argument to be had that even the Revolution checks some of the boxes, right. This terrorism is one form of extremism. Extremism the definition I use is when an in group perceives that their success or survival is threatened by an outgroup and hostile action is necessary. It's that hostile action piece that becomes so critical to your definition because your in group outgroup success or survival piece is very normal in our politics. The other side, this is the most consequential election of our lifetime. If so and so gets elected, it's the end of the United States as we know it. I mean, we're just so used to it, so that such that when we had an election in twenty twenty and now again in twenty twenty four, when you have people like Colonel Vinman saying no, really, it's hard for us to even hear that. This is different than those other political speeches you've heard in the past. But the difference is the hostile action piece. That we have individuals in our country who perceive that threat so significantly that they're willing to commit some form of hostile action. On the spectrum of hostile action, we start down at the bullying harassment stage. Might be non criminals, so the government's not allowed to go and police that. But from a community standpoint, we can as parents, we can as educators, we can we can say stop it. That's not how we deal with our conflict, but that can pretty quickly escalate into criminal action, actual vandalism of property, actual intimidation and threats of an individual or an organization, and then you get into hate crimes, terrorism, genocide being the extreme end of that spectrum. And I think been living in a soup, a toxic soup of extremist rhetoric for a long time as a country, and then a permission structure was created some point in the last ten years that you can take those ideas that yeah, violence is appropriate sometimes and actually start acting on them. And to have that permission structure, you need a couple of factors. It's at any given time in our population, there are going to be any number of individuals that we would describe as vulnerable to radicalization, but the percentage that actually radicalized is much much smaller, and the percentage that actually mobilized to violence is much much much smaller than that. But in recent years that vulnerable population has swelled and is huge the poles. The surveys done by multiple different outfits academics, anywhere from twenty five percent to forty percent of the American public believe that violence is justified to achieve your political aim. That is the definition of terrorism. Now, if you were to ask somebody that do you think terrorism is justified? Of course they'd say now, But when you ask it in kind of this other language, they start to admit, yeah, yeah, I think that's possible. And so we're in a tinderbox right now.

So that would take much longer than we have time for. But in a nutshell, our country has dealt with domestic terrorism probably since our founding. There's an argument to be had that even the Revolution checks some of the boxes, right. This terrorism is one form of extremism. Extremism the definition I use is when an in group perceives that their success or survival is threatened by an outgroup and hostile action is necessary. It's that hostile action piece that becomes so critical to your definition because your in group outgroup success or survival piece is very normal in our politics. The other side, this is the most consequential election of our lifetime. If so and so gets elected, it's the end of the United States as we know it. I mean, we're just so used to it, so that such that when we had an election in twenty twenty and now again in twenty twenty four, when you have people like Colonel Vinman saying no, really, it's hard for us to even hear that. This is different than those other political speeches you've heard in the past. But the difference is the hostile action piece. That we have individuals in our country who perceive that threat so significantly that they're willing to commit some form of hostile action. On the spectrum of hostile action, we start down at the bullying harassment stage. Might be non criminals, so the government's not allowed to go and police that. But from a community standpoint, we can as parents, we can as educators, we can we can say stop it. That's not how we deal with our conflict, but that can pretty quickly escalate into criminal action, actual vandalism of property, actual intimidation and threats of an individual or an organization, and then you get into hate crimes, terrorism, genocide being the extreme end of that spectrum. And I think been living in a soup, a toxic soup of extremist rhetoric for a long time as a country, and then a permission structure was created some point in the last ten years that you can take those ideas that yeah, violence is appropriate sometimes and actually start acting on them. And to have that permission structure, you need a couple of factors. It's at any given time in our population, there are going to be any number of individuals that we would describe as vulnerable to radicalization, but the percentage that actually radicalized is much much smaller, and the percentage that actually mobilized to violence is much much much smaller than that. But in recent years that vulnerable population has swelled and is huge the poles. The surveys done by multiple different outfits academics, anywhere from twenty five percent to forty percent of the American public believe that violence is justified to achieve your political aim. That is the definition of terrorism. Now, if you were to ask somebody that do you think terrorism is justified? Of course they'd say now, But when you ask it in kind of this other language, they start to admit, yeah, yeah, I think that's possible. And so we're in a tinderbox right now.

That was former Trump administration Homeland Security official Elizabeth Newman.

That was former Trump administration Homeland Security official Elizabeth Newman.

In a moment, we'll.

In a moment, we'll.

Continue our conversation about the documentary film Wargame and talk about one of the most powerful but also dangerous tools in the president's toolbox, the Insurrection Act, a law from the seventeen nineties that allows the president to use the military against Americans on US soil. More of our conversation from Sundance coming up on the middle.

Continue our conversation about the documentary film Wargame and talk about one of the most powerful but also dangerous tools in the president's toolbox, the Insurrection Act, a law from the seventeen nineties that allows the president to use the military against Americans on US soil. More of our conversation from Sundance coming up on the middle.

This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.

This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.

Let's continue our conversation from the Sundance Film Festival in Utah about the new documentary film Wargame. In it, a host of elected leaders and military officials had to react in real time to a January sixth style event, but worse because there was a split in military loyalty. Some in the armed forces believe that the loser of the election was actually the winner. Former Montana Governor Steve Bullet plays the president, and I asked him who he.

Let's continue our conversation from the Sundance Film Festival in Utah about the new documentary film Wargame. In it, a host of elected leaders and military officials had to react in real time to a January sixth style event, but worse because there was a split in military loyalty. Some in the armed forces believe that the loser of the election was actually the winner. Former Montana Governor Steve Bullet plays the president, and I asked him who he.

Believed the enemy was in a situation like that.

Believed the enemy was in a situation like that.

Was it the ordinary citizen breaking into the capital, the radicalized blogger sending out orders online, or the Michael Flynn esque former general telling members of the military to disobey orders from their commander in chief.

Was it the ordinary citizen breaking into the capital, the radicalized blogger sending out orders online, or the Michael Flynn esque former general telling members of the military to disobey orders from their commander in chief.

I don't know that. I was thinking, who am I fighting against? But what are we fighting for?

I don't know that. I was thinking, who am I fighting against? But what are we fighting for?

Right that?

Right that?

At the end of the day, and we even talked about some in the movie. You have what happened on the January sixth, but what's going to happen the day after? I think Elizabeth talk about the in group and the outgroup, and look, we all many people would want to say Trump cost all this.

At the end of the day, and we even talked about some in the movie. You have what happened on the January sixth, but what's going to happen the day after? I think Elizabeth talk about the in group and the outgroup, and look, we all many people would want to say Trump cost all this.

I don't believe that.

I don't believe that.

I think Trump was the result. Two thousand and six twenty sixteen, eighty percent of household saw their income stay flat or go down. People start thinking, Okay, I do the right thing. I'm going to live that dream, whatever that is, and when it's not getting there, that's how you get the potential for more radicalization. So I looked at it, certainly at a micro level, right that Here's what's happened in Arizona, Here's what's happened in vill Air Force Base. Here's what the Red Cell might be doing. But as we tried to get a hold of the situation, the premise behind it is that the election was decided by six tens a one percent, But it was never oh, that forty nine point four percent of people are bad. It wasn't about the politics. It was about sort of the institutions, and then how do we start bridging those institutions once you get control of the situation.

I think Trump was the result. Two thousand and six twenty sixteen, eighty percent of household saw their income stay flat or go down. People start thinking, Okay, I do the right thing. I'm going to live that dream, whatever that is, and when it's not getting there, that's how you get the potential for more radicalization. So I looked at it, certainly at a micro level, right that Here's what's happened in Arizona, Here's what's happened in vill Air Force Base. Here's what the Red Cell might be doing. But as we tried to get a hold of the situation, the premise behind it is that the election was decided by six tens a one percent, But it was never oh, that forty nine point four percent of people are bad. It wasn't about the politics. It was about sort of the institutions, and then how do we start bridging those institutions once you get control of the situation.

Elizabeth, what was the scariest thing that came up in this exercise that you think we need to be worried about as we had into this coming election.

Elizabeth, what was the scariest thing that came up in this exercise that you think we need to be worried about as we had into this coming election.

Well, the game designers and the Red Cell were pretty realistic, at least in my understanding of the nature of the threat, and they took advantage of I don't want to call them design flaws. It's just that so many of so much of the way that our government functions is based on norms. It's not written into law, it's not written into policy, and we've experienced in the last eight years what happens if somebody says I don't want to live by those norms, and there are consequences if we as a society decide whether it's down at a low level somebody getting up with the fast food worker and deciding that violence is the response. You know, that's a norm violation all the way up to a president saying I don't have to follow the rules, I am immune to the laws. That those have consequences. So I think the while there were many good outcomes of the exercise, and you'll have to go see the film to learn more about them, I was still left with this pit in my stomach that there are a lot of policy questions left unanswered. There are a lot of places that we both in the government and then as a community, we need to be wrestling with this and coming up with answers before it happens. If you're dealing with it on the day of and you don't know what your playbook is, you're most likely going to lose, or in the way that I view it, you're most likely going to lose life.

Well, the game designers and the Red Cell were pretty realistic, at least in my understanding of the nature of the threat, and they took advantage of I don't want to call them design flaws. It's just that so many of so much of the way that our government functions is based on norms. It's not written into law, it's not written into policy, and we've experienced in the last eight years what happens if somebody says I don't want to live by those norms, and there are consequences if we as a society decide whether it's down at a low level somebody getting up with the fast food worker and deciding that violence is the response. You know, that's a norm violation all the way up to a president saying I don't have to follow the rules, I am immune to the laws. That those have consequences. So I think the while there were many good outcomes of the exercise, and you'll have to go see the film to learn more about them, I was still left with this pit in my stomach that there are a lot of policy questions left unanswered. There are a lot of places that we both in the government and then as a community, we need to be wrestling with this and coming up with answers before it happens. If you're dealing with it on the day of and you don't know what your playbook is, you're most likely going to lose, or in the way that I view it, you're most likely going to lose life.

Can I add something to society comment? Though, I mean, he's right about economic disenfranchisement, but people have, and let's just admit it, they have made fear of the other American the American that doesn't look like you. That person's getting ahead, that person's taking something from you, and those people are for that person, and I'm for you. And in a way that we've never seen, at least in my lifetime, people who would expouse those beliefs, whether they are white supremacists, have been invited to the party because they are a critical piece of a voting block right now, and that's something that needs to be extinguished. And so we can't leave just the oververt racism of what's happening in this country out of our discussion.

Can I add something to society comment? Though, I mean, he's right about economic disenfranchisement, but people have, and let's just admit it, they have made fear of the other American the American that doesn't look like you. That person's getting ahead, that person's taking something from you, and those people are for that person, and I'm for you. And in a way that we've never seen, at least in my lifetime, people who would expouse those beliefs, whether they are white supremacists, have been invited to the party because they are a critical piece of a voting block right now, and that's something that needs to be extinguished. And so we can't leave just the oververt racism of what's happening in this country out of our discussion.

We have one more clip that gets to something that is really fascinating in this film, really the crux of the film.

We have one more clip that gets to something that is really fascinating in this film, really the crux of the film.

There is a tool the president has.

There is a tool the president has.

It's fully legal, also comes with a lot of consequences.

It's fully legal, also comes with a lot of consequences.

It's called the Insurrection Act.

It's called the Insurrection Act.

It was passed in seventeen ninety two, and it gives the President of the United States the power to use the military against civilians on US soil in certain circumstances.

It was passed in seventeen ninety two, and it gives the President of the United States the power to use the military against civilians on US soil in certain circumstances.

Listen to this.

Listen to this.

This is going to be a defining moment of your presidency.

This is going to be a defining moment of your presidency.

So the media sports and we have to understand why they will want to give command and control.

So the media sports and we have to understand why they will want to give command and control.

We do the.

We do the.

President the in Direction Act is a trap.

President the in Direction Act is a trap.

We need to have a further converssy.

We need to have a further converssy.

It's a defining moment in their governors show.

It's a defining moment in their governors show.

Then we have what President, Your audience is the American public, and they want to know that Congress is coming back to certify.

Then we have what President, Your audience is the American public, and they want to know that Congress is coming back to certify.

So we do have to come into agreement here. Because time is moving on. You have to decide which way you are going to want to move. Just President, ten minutes remaining.

So we do have to come into agreement here. Because time is moving on. You have to decide which way you are going to want to move. Just President, ten minutes remaining.

The President is sweaty.

The President is sweaty.

He's going to have to make a decision.

He's going to have to make a decision.

Mister President, are you invoking the Insurrection Act or federalizing National Guard?

Mister President, are you invoking the Insurrection Act or federalizing National Guard?

What neither has happened yet.

What neither has happened yet.

I'm not asking you, I'm asking the President.

I'm not asking you, I'm asking the President.

Are you doing either?

Are you doing either?

Missident President?

Missident President?

Mister President, President, President Governor Bullock, Mister President, easy day, wasn't it? Did it make you wonder whether you really wanted to run for president back in the day? What was going through your mind as you were considering whether to invoke the Insurrection Act?

Mister President, President, President Governor Bullock, Mister President, easy day, wasn't it? Did it make you wonder whether you really wanted to run for president back in the day? What was going through your mind as you were considering whether to invoke the Insurrection Act?

Well, first, a lot of voices, as you could say, I mean Jack had said at some point the fog of.

Well, first, a lot of voices, as you could say, I mean Jack had said at some point the fog of.

War, and you didn't have all of the information along the way.

War, and you didn't have all of the information along the way.

As a governor, you're the commander in chief of your National Guard had got to work with folks like General say on a regular basis, but try to get a hold in control of the situation while recognizing that like, look, that's the nuclear option when you're sending in US military against your own citizens when half of the country didn't even think you were properly elected. Like, once you go there, you can't put that back in the bottle. So it was both thinking about how do you control the situation and then what do we do the next day to start hopefully healing this country.

As a governor, you're the commander in chief of your National Guard had got to work with folks like General say on a regular basis, but try to get a hold in control of the situation while recognizing that like, look, that's the nuclear option when you're sending in US military against your own citizens when half of the country didn't even think you were properly elected. Like, once you go there, you can't put that back in the bottle. So it was both thinking about how do you control the situation and then what do we do the next day to start hopefully healing this country.

Heidi Hidekamp, you're a senior advisor to the president. What were you weighing as you thought about how to advise him on whether to use the Insurrection Act?

Heidi Hidekamp, you're a senior advisor to the president. What were you weighing as you thought about how to advise him on whether to use the Insurrection Act?

I think when you are trying to defend democracy and you take the most extreme power that government has, which would have been the Insurrection Act, basically declaring military law, then you need to think about whether you're actually defending democracy or whether you're just taking an easy way out. And the other thing is, and you will see it when you see the movie. We had incomplete information on whether the governors were actually deploying the resources that they already had at their ready, which is realistic.

I think when you are trying to defend democracy and you take the most extreme power that government has, which would have been the Insurrection Act, basically declaring military law, then you need to think about whether you're actually defending democracy or whether you're just taking an easy way out. And the other thing is, and you will see it when you see the movie. We had incomplete information on whether the governors were actually deploying the resources that they already had at their ready, which is realistic.

Probably what would actually.

Probably what would actually.

Happen, absolutely, and we kept saying, get the governor on the phone. You know, we're trying to trying to parse through that whole system. And the interesting thing about this exercise is Steve and I both come from state government. We were both attorneys general. That's really where my heart is. Even though I served in the Senate, I see myself more as a state official, and I think we looked at this through a lens of state government and state responsibility in each one of these locations and the value of the federalist system, federalism system that we have where states have that autonomy and so to take that away from states was another huge factor that led to recommendations Governor Bullock.

Happen, absolutely, and we kept saying, get the governor on the phone. You know, we're trying to trying to parse through that whole system. And the interesting thing about this exercise is Steve and I both come from state government. We were both attorneys general. That's really where my heart is. Even though I served in the Senate, I see myself more as a state official, and I think we looked at this through a lens of state government and state responsibility in each one of these locations and the value of the federalist system, federalism system that we have where states have that autonomy and so to take that away from states was another huge factor that led to recommendations Governor Bullock.

I guess and without sort of saying how it all ends. One of the things that I was heartened with through the exercise too, was like you had incredible military, former four star generals involved, and you know, and part of you might think, okay that a four star general would say everything looks like a nail and we're the hammer. But how thoughtful they were in providing counsel to us as well.

I guess and without sort of saying how it all ends. One of the things that I was heartened with through the exercise too, was like you had incredible military, former four star generals involved, and you know, and part of you might think, okay that a four star general would say everything looks like a nail and we're the hammer. But how thoughtful they were in providing counsel to us as well.

General thing, Yeah, if you were in that situation at that moment and the President said, we're invoking the Insurrection Act.

General thing, Yeah, if you were in that situation at that moment and the President said, we're invoking the Insurrection Act.

As a person in the military, what do you do? You just have to do what he says.

As a person in the military, what do you do? You just have to do what he says.

Well, so that is where I have to really stand on principle, which I think I did in the exercise, right. I really wanted to make sure that we understood what that meant. And I think for you know, when you get a chance to see wargame, I want you to understand what that really means to you as a citizen. That means that you're taking someone like us, and you're asking us to go and fight against our families, our friends, our aunts, our uncles, our neighbors. That happens abroad. It doesn't happen here in the US, not anymore. And so that is a nuclear option that you've got to be prepared for the consequences when someone pulls that card. It has long standing, far more consequences than you can imagine.