The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support The Middle at Listen tooth Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. Before we get to talking about senior citizens, let's talk about a baby. A one year old baby named The Middle. We are a year old as a weekly show as of this week.

The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support The Middle at Listen tooth Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. Before we get to talking about senior citizens, let's talk about a baby. A one year old baby named The Middle. We are a year old as a weekly show as of this week.

Oh my god, are we even teething yet?

Oh my god, are we even teething yet?

Are we actually?

Are we actually?

First step, I went, I.

First step, I went, I.

Went and looked online to see what one year olds do exactly, and they can say Mama, dada, A lots of things. I don't know about The Middle or Tolliver, but anyway, very exciting and we've actually, we'd looked back over the last year, we've had one hundred panel guests or more more than ten thousand calls into our system. We've done each shows on the road, so a lot a lot happening here and this hour, Tiver, we're talking about social security, one of the largest items in the federal budget, but one that doesn't get talked about too much because changing it is so unpopular. It is funded by American workers and employers, and people are allowed to start getting their benefits at age sixty two, or if they wait, they get their full benefits at age sixty seven. But of course the baby boom generation has put big strains on Social Security with so many people retiring at once and right now, the Trustees of Social Security say that unless changes are made, big cuts would be necessary starting in about nine years. So our question this hour will social Security be there for you when you need it? And what if any reforms would you like to see. And we're going to get to your calls in a minute at eight four four four six four three three five three. But first last week we asked you what the value of NATO is to the United States. We got a lot of interesting callers. Here are some of the comments that came in after the show.

Went and looked online to see what one year olds do exactly, and they can say Mama, dada, A lots of things. I don't know about The Middle or Tolliver, but anyway, very exciting and we've actually, we'd looked back over the last year, we've had one hundred panel guests or more more than ten thousand calls into our system. We've done each shows on the road, so a lot a lot happening here and this hour, Tiver, we're talking about social security, one of the largest items in the federal budget, but one that doesn't get talked about too much because changing it is so unpopular. It is funded by American workers and employers, and people are allowed to start getting their benefits at age sixty two, or if they wait, they get their full benefits at age sixty seven. But of course the baby boom generation has put big strains on Social Security with so many people retiring at once and right now, the Trustees of Social Security say that unless changes are made, big cuts would be necessary starting in about nine years. So our question this hour will social Security be there for you when you need it? And what if any reforms would you like to see. And we're going to get to your calls in a minute at eight four four four six four three three five three. But first last week we asked you what the value of NATO is to the United States. We got a lot of interesting callers. Here are some of the comments that came in after the show.

Hi, this is Eric, and I am calling you from Canton, Ohio. Is bad for the United States and probably should not have existed past nineteen ninety one. There is a great case to be made for the United States leaving NATO, and I'd like to make it.

Hi, this is Eric, and I am calling you from Canton, Ohio. Is bad for the United States and probably should not have existed past nineteen ninety one. There is a great case to be made for the United States leaving NATO, and I'd like to make it.

Hi, my name is Kathy and I'm from Denver, Colorado. I need to use a football metaphor to make it very clear. If I'm a football player and I'm being challenged by a powerful team, let's call that one. I don't know Jay Russia, and I want to try to vanquish my opponent, I would say that I would like to have a team of people rather than me having to do it all by myself.

Hi, my name is Kathy and I'm from Denver, Colorado. I need to use a football metaphor to make it very clear. If I'm a football player and I'm being challenged by a powerful team, let's call that one. I don't know Jay Russia, and I want to try to vanquish my opponent, I would say that I would like to have a team of people rather than me having to do it all by myself.

My name is John. I'm calling from Meriden, Connecticut. NATO serves another function, which is all the disparate members are much stronger together than would be a part and represent something to be reckoned with.

My name is John. I'm calling from Meriden, Connecticut. NATO serves another function, which is all the disparate members are much stronger together than would be a part and represent something to be reckoned with.

Well, thanks to everyone who called in and you can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour, Will social security be there for you when you need it? And what if any reforms would you like to see? Tolliver? How can listeners reach us?

Well, thanks to everyone who called in and you can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour, Will social security be there for you when you need it? And what if any reforms would you like to see? Tolliver? How can listeners reach us?

They can call us at eight four four four Middle. It's eight four four four six four three three five three all right to us that listen to the Middle dot com.

They can call us at eight four four four Middle. It's eight four four four six four three three five three all right to us that listen to the Middle dot com.

So let's meet our panel economist Julia Coronado is the president and founder of Macro Policy Perspectives. She also teaches finance at the University of Texas Austin. Julia, Great to have you on.

So let's meet our panel economist Julia Coronado is the president and founder of Macro Policy Perspectives. She also teaches finance at the University of Texas Austin. Julia, Great to have you on.

The middle It's my pleasure, Jeremy.

The middle It's my pleasure, Jeremy.

And also joining us is CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Leisman, perhaps the first person in America to know what the Fed is going to do every time they meet. Steve. Great to have you with us as well.

And also joining us is CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Leisman, perhaps the first person in America to know what the Fed is going to do every time they meet. Steve. Great to have you with us as well.

Great to be here, Jeremy, Thanks for having me.

Great to be here, Jeremy, Thanks for having me.

Well, before we get to the phones, let's start with the importance of this program, Julia Coronado. Experts say that without it, twenty two million adults would fall below the poverty line. So, especially for our younger listeners, for whom social security may be a term that they hear but don't exactly know what it is. Why do we need social security?

Well, before we get to the phones, let's start with the importance of this program, Julia Coronado. Experts say that without it, twenty two million adults would fall below the poverty line. So, especially for our younger listeners, for whom social security may be a term that they hear but don't exactly know what it is. Why do we need social security?

Okay, so I will be the bearer of some good news, Jeremy. So, first of all, social security should not be thought of as government spending or a government spending program. It is a social insurance program. We take money out of young people's paychecks to provide a steady, guaranteed payment to older people. In their retirement years. So it is a transfer from one group of households to another. It is not the government spending money, it is you spending money. You get to choose what to do with that money. That's number one. Number two is you know, it really is pretty easy to fix Social Security Right now, these scheduled taxes will pay more than three quarters of all benefits. So if we were forced to balance the program today, yes there would be some cuts, but most of the benefits are already slated to be paid for. So the changes we need to make to the program to balance it are not that huge, and we can get into the specifics if you are interested. But I think there's a couple of very simple reforms that would put it right in balance, and they would protect the people that rely on it the most well.

Okay, so I will be the bearer of some good news, Jeremy. So, first of all, social security should not be thought of as government spending or a government spending program. It is a social insurance program. We take money out of young people's paychecks to provide a steady, guaranteed payment to older people. In their retirement years. So it is a transfer from one group of households to another. It is not the government spending money, it is you spending money. You get to choose what to do with that money. That's number one. Number two is you know, it really is pretty easy to fix Social Security Right now, these scheduled taxes will pay more than three quarters of all benefits. So if we were forced to balance the program today, yes there would be some cuts, but most of the benefits are already slated to be paid for. So the changes we need to make to the program to balance it are not that huge, and we can get into the specifics if you are interested. But I think there's a couple of very simple reforms that would put it right in balance, and they would protect the people that rely on it the most well.

So if it is so simple to fix it, Steve Lisban, why is it such a third rail in American politics that nobody really wants to make the hard choices and make the tough changes to Social Security to keep it solvent in the long term.

So if it is so simple to fix it, Steve Lisban, why is it such a third rail in American politics that nobody really wants to make the hard choices and make the tough changes to Social Security to keep it solvent in the long term.

It's politics, It's I mean, Julia's right. The economists could fix it overnight. You put three of them in a room and they could come up with a variety of revenue, benefit and eligibility rules, and you could put it on.

It's politics, It's I mean, Julia's right. The economists could fix it overnight. You put three of them in a room and they could come up with a variety of revenue, benefit and eligibility rules, and you could put it on.

A pretty pretty good safe course for many decades.

A pretty pretty good safe course for many decades.

But it's politics and the way it's demagogue and I just want to say one thing that's important, I think to your viewership is that the wrong people in the public are engaged in this debate. The people who care a lot about social Security are the people who are receiving it right now, and they are politically almost no danger at all of having their benefits cut or their eligibility.

But it's politics and the way it's demagogue and I just want to say one thing that's important, I think to your viewership is that the wrong people in the public are engaged in this debate. The people who care a lot about social Security are the people who are receiving it right now, and they are politically almost no danger at all of having their benefits cut or their eligibility.

It's the young folks.

It's the young folks.

That are going to get this or they're going to be affected by any changes to Social Security, and most of the polling that I've seen shows they're almost not involved in the.

That are going to get this or they're going to be affected by any changes to Social Security, and most of the polling that I've seen shows they're almost not involved in the.

Issue at all.

Issue at all.

So, if you're young and listening to this program, other than the fact that it helps Jeremi's demographics, when it comes to when it comes to the listenership, ye get engaged in this issue because it's important.

So, if you're young and listening to this program, other than the fact that it helps Jeremi's demographics, when it comes to when it comes to the listenership, ye get engaged in this issue because it's important.

I've got news for you, Steve. Every show that we have in Tolliver will vouch for this. There are people under twenty five that call and sometimes under twenty that call in and I'm putting a call out to you right now if you are twenty and under thirty under, I want to hear from you this hour. But why don't we get to a caller on the line. Here? Kate is in Fort Collins, Colorado. Kate, welcome to the middle. Go ahead your thoughts on Social Security?

I've got news for you, Steve. Every show that we have in Tolliver will vouch for this. There are people under twenty five that call and sometimes under twenty that call in and I'm putting a call out to you right now if you are twenty and under thirty under, I want to hear from you this hour. But why don't we get to a caller on the line. Here? Kate is in Fort Collins, Colorado. Kate, welcome to the middle. Go ahead your thoughts on Social Security?

Hi, Yeah, I'm not one of those that are under thirty. I'm already collecting Social Security and it just seems like you keep hearing that it's going to end in nine years. And in nine years I'm going to be in my mid eighties, and it scares me to death that it won't be there, and that the increases every year don't match the rate of inflation. It seems like my husband and I have to cut back more and more every year because the jump in our yearly benefits is just a few dollars.

Hi, Yeah, I'm not one of those that are under thirty. I'm already collecting Social Security and it just seems like you keep hearing that it's going to end in nine years. And in nine years I'm going to be in my mid eighties, and it scares me to death that it won't be there, and that the increases every year don't match the rate of inflation. It seems like my husband and I have to cut back more and more every year because the jump in our yearly benefits is just a few dollars.

And would you like to what would you like to be done to it?

And would you like to what would you like to be done to it?

Kate?

Kate?

What do you think would be a reform that would help keep it solving in the long term for you and others?

What do you think would be a reform that would help keep it solving in the long term for you and others?

Well, I really think that if people, both people in corporations, paid the taxes that you know that they should be paying, that Social Security could easily be funded I heard heard it's somebody is saying it's a simple solution and it's mostly politics, but something has to be done so that more people are are paying more into it. And yet the young people that are you know, are now paying into it, have it available for them like, you know, like.

Well, I really think that if people, both people in corporations, paid the taxes that you know that they should be paying, that Social Security could easily be funded I heard heard it's somebody is saying it's a simple solution and it's mostly politics, but something has to be done so that more people are are paying more into it. And yet the young people that are you know, are now paying into it, have it available for them like, you know, like.

When they when they retire. Yeah, Kate, thank you. Let me take that to Julia cornado U. And you know, one of the things you talked about there was taxing people more. This is one of the big solutions that's out there for Social Security is you know, right now it's like one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars up to about one hundred and sixty eight that you get taxed on. But some have said just keep going beyond that or maybe to a whole until four hundred thousand of income and then take it after that. But what do you think about that?

When they when they retire. Yeah, Kate, thank you. Let me take that to Julia cornado U. And you know, one of the things you talked about there was taxing people more. This is one of the big solutions that's out there for Social Security is you know, right now it's like one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars up to about one hundred and sixty eight that you get taxed on. But some have said just keep going beyond that or maybe to a whole until four hundred thousand of income and then take it after that. But what do you think about that?

That's the easiest reform.

That's the easiest reform.

So, first of all, I really hope that Kate doesn't lose sleep over this. It will be there when you are eighty ninety ninety five. May you live long and prosper, and it will be there. Nobody is talking about cutting benefits or even you know, even proposals like limiting the cost of living adjustment, that's just simply not politically going to happen. But what Jeremy you just mentioned that is the most commonly favored reform. So right now people pay pay taxes, as you mentioned, up to one hundred and sixty eight thousand, six hundred in their income, and lifting that cap so that you pay the Social Security tax on all of your wages salary income. That would close three quarters of the gap. That really is the easiest reform. The people that can afford it the most would pay the most, and no benefit cuts necessarily. Now that, of course, you still have a small gap, so you can also make some adjustments to the benefit formula at the very top end, so it's still a comprehensive program.

So, first of all, I really hope that Kate doesn't lose sleep over this. It will be there when you are eighty ninety ninety five. May you live long and prosper, and it will be there. Nobody is talking about cutting benefits or even you know, even proposals like limiting the cost of living adjustment, that's just simply not politically going to happen. But what Jeremy you just mentioned that is the most commonly favored reform. So right now people pay pay taxes, as you mentioned, up to one hundred and sixty eight thousand, six hundred in their income, and lifting that cap so that you pay the Social Security tax on all of your wages salary income. That would close three quarters of the gap. That really is the easiest reform. The people that can afford it the most would pay the most, and no benefit cuts necessarily. Now that, of course, you still have a small gap, so you can also make some adjustments to the benefit formula at the very top end, so it's still a comprehensive program.

Middle and lower income.

Middle and lower income.

People still get their fully scheduled benefits, they're fully scheduled cost of living adjustments. But higher income people pay a little more and get a little bit of a benefit reduction.

People still get their fully scheduled benefits, they're fully scheduled cost of living adjustments. But higher income people pay a little more and get a little bit of a benefit reduction.

But Steve Leesman, just briefly, if you do something like that, doesn't it turn it from the system that Julia was talking about where everybody pays and everybody takes out into more of a system where the richer giving more money, and then people who are less wealthy are the ones taking it. It becomes a different kind of a system.

But Steve Leesman, just briefly, if you do something like that, doesn't it turn it from the system that Julia was talking about where everybody pays and everybody takes out into more of a system where the richer giving more money, and then people who are less wealthy are the ones taking it. It becomes a different kind of a system.

Yeah, that's a great point, Jeremy. And first I'd just like to also add my sense of calm to Kate. She's not going to lose her benefits. That's not really the issue. It's not where anybody is talking about a people her age or older. Anybody is talking about and the issue of what happens in nine years is the money that had been an excess that had been put aside for paying Social Security.

Yeah, that's a great point, Jeremy. And first I'd just like to also add my sense of calm to Kate. She's not going to lose her benefits. That's not really the issue. It's not where anybody is talking about a people her age or older. Anybody is talking about and the issue of what happens in nine years is the money that had been an excess that had been put aside for paying Social Security.

When we did not have the baby.

When we did not have the baby.

Will try that money runs out, but the government still has multiple means and we can talk later about the fungibility of the money in so Security.

Will try that money runs out, but the government still has multiple means and we can talk later about the fungibility of the money in so Security.

But let me get to your question.

But let me get to your question.

We will he standby. I'm going to come back to you right after our short break because I do want to have Tolliver tell us about the last time Social Security was changed in a big way, which Tolliver was in the nineteen eighties.

We will he standby. I'm going to come back to you right after our short break because I do want to have Tolliver tell us about the last time Social Security was changed in a big way, which Tolliver was in the nineteen eighties.

Yeah, a bipartisan reform to Social Security that raised the retirement age and sped up payroll tax increases. Here's President Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty three.

Yeah, a bipartisan reform to Social Security that raised the retirement age and sped up payroll tax increases. Here's President Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty three.

This bill demonstrates for all time our nation's ironclad commitment to social security. It assures the elderly that America will all always keep the promises made in troubled times a half a century ago. It assures those who are still working that they too have a pact with the future. From this day forward, they have our pledge that they will get their fair share of benefits when they retire.

This bill demonstrates for all time our nation's ironclad commitment to social security. It assures the elderly that America will all always keep the promises made in troubled times a half a century ago. It assures those who are still working that they too have a pact with the future. From this day forward, they have our pledge that they will get their fair share of benefits when they retire.

Those reforms Oliver, by the way, added decades to the solvency of Social Security.

Those reforms Oliver, by the way, added decades to the solvency of Social Security.

Okay, so we'll in something new every week.

Okay, so we'll in something new every week.

If something like that happens again, we shall see if they can get it, get a bipartisan deal in Washington, but we will have bipartisan calls. See that coming up on the middle, This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking you, do you think social Security will be there for you when you need it, and what, if any reforms would you like to see? Tolliver, what is the number of people to call in.

If something like that happens again, we shall see if they can get it, get a bipartisan deal in Washington, but we will have bipartisan calls. See that coming up on the middle, This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking you, do you think social Security will be there for you when you need it, and what, if any reforms would you like to see? Tolliver, what is the number of people to call in.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us that listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us that listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

I'm joined by economists Julia Cornado and CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Lisman. And before we get back to the phone, Steve Lisman, your point about social Security not as a welfare program where the rich are giving to the poor, but as something that everybody pays into, everybody takes out of right.

I'm joined by economists Julia Cornado and CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Lisman. And before we get back to the phone, Steve Lisman, your point about social Security not as a welfare program where the rich are giving to the poor, but as something that everybody pays into, everybody takes out of right.

So this is why they have what they call in the business at tax max, which is the maximum amount of earnings which are taxed for Social Security. When Roosevelt put the program together, the idea was to not make it a welfare program so as to ensure broad based political support for it and its continuity. So they put a maximum amount that could be taxed. So it wasn't a matter of, as Julia said, it was a matter of really the wealthy giving to the poor. It was a matter of, well, for a while, it was pay as you go, the amount that came in equal to how much was being paid out, and then actually there was a surplus for a long time as the baby boomers came through. And just a little bit of trivia, that tax max that Julia talked about before at one hundred and sixty eight thousand was three thousand dollars in nineteen forty when the program started.

So this is why they have what they call in the business at tax max, which is the maximum amount of earnings which are taxed for Social Security. When Roosevelt put the program together, the idea was to not make it a welfare program so as to ensure broad based political support for it and its continuity. So they put a maximum amount that could be taxed. So it wasn't a matter of, as Julia said, it was a matter of really the wealthy giving to the poor. It was a matter of, well, for a while, it was pay as you go, the amount that came in equal to how much was being paid out, and then actually there was a surplus for a long time as the baby boomers came through. And just a little bit of trivia, that tax max that Julia talked about before at one hundred and sixty eight thousand was three thousand dollars in nineteen forty when the program started.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, we're going to talk later about the difference in life and expectancy, but between nineteen thirty five and now too. But let's get back to the plans. Yeah, and Gary, who is near Houston, Texas? Gary, Welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Well, we're going to talk later about the difference in life and expectancy, but between nineteen thirty five and now too. But let's get back to the plans. Yeah, and Gary, who is near Houston, Texas? Gary, Welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Hello. I want to point out that Social Security was established due to the Great Depression and the suffering of elderly people. And I've been on Social Security for ten years, and I think one thing they overlooked is that elderly people generally end up widowers and widows. And then when you lose your your spouse after how many years, and you lose that percentage of your income, and then on top of the with your grief and the economy as it is at that point in time, which ain't good these days, you have to deal with the fact that you need more but you have less. And maybe they could look into some kind of alternative for elderly people that lose their spouse.

Hello. I want to point out that Social Security was established due to the Great Depression and the suffering of elderly people. And I've been on Social Security for ten years, and I think one thing they overlooked is that elderly people generally end up widowers and widows. And then when you lose your your spouse after how many years, and you lose that percentage of your income, and then on top of the with your grief and the economy as it is at that point in time, which ain't good these days, you have to deal with the fact that you need more but you have less. And maybe they could look into some kind of alternative for elderly people that lose their spouse.

And in your situation, Gary, how much are you relying on Social Security for your income right now?

And in your situation, Gary, how much are you relying on Social Security for your income right now?

One hundred percent. And I've been I work for fifty years and I've been on Social for ten years, and my wife was on Social for five years, and when she passed away, that was a third of my income. And now I need even more because she's not here to help me. I need to get people to help me. And I have even less to take care of it. And I'm older and I can't do all the shopping and working and cooking and cleaning like she did, and they need to, you know, possibly consider a hardship clause and Social Security. Most elderly people either die or lose their spouse at some point. And yeah, it's not funny, but yeah, it's what they call. It's what they call a secondary loss right. You lose your family and all the work they did, and then you lose your income to boot you.

One hundred percent. And I've been I work for fifty years and I've been on Social for ten years, and my wife was on Social for five years, and when she passed away, that was a third of my income. And now I need even more because she's not here to help me. I need to get people to help me. And I have even less to take care of it. And I'm older and I can't do all the shopping and working and cooking and cleaning like she did, and they need to, you know, possibly consider a hardship clause and Social Security. Most elderly people either die or lose their spouse at some point. And yeah, it's not funny, but yeah, it's what they call. It's what they call a secondary loss right. You lose your family and all the work they did, and then you lose your income to boot you.

Know, Gary, Gary, We've got it, And thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Let me go to Julia on that because Gary brings up something else, which is so many people in this country. I think twenty percent of retirees according to the ARP have no other savings at all besides what they're going to get from social Security.

Know, Gary, Gary, We've got it, And thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Let me go to Julia on that because Gary brings up something else, which is so many people in this country. I think twenty percent of retirees according to the ARP have no other savings at all besides what they're going to get from social Security.

That's right, No, that's right, and it is an issue, that's a real issue. In fact, I just dealt with that with my own stepmother and father when he passed and she saw a decrease in her income. And that's common too, even if whether you have a pension or a social or are relying on social sect security, you do tend to see a drop in income and then you're forced with making a decision of well do I move to a smaller home or an apartment, and at a time when you probably don't want to move. So it is a challenge. It's a challenge across retirement planning. And of course solving that problem would mean more benefits paid out or you know, somehow pooling it between spouses. But because every family and every couple is different, coming up with a formula that's comprehensive and fits all situations is very tricky. So I think Gary's putting his finger on you know, a very difficult part of aging and planning any kind of a retirement program, including social security.

That's right, No, that's right, and it is an issue, that's a real issue. In fact, I just dealt with that with my own stepmother and father when he passed and she saw a decrease in her income. And that's common too, even if whether you have a pension or a social or are relying on social sect security, you do tend to see a drop in income and then you're forced with making a decision of well do I move to a smaller home or an apartment, and at a time when you probably don't want to move. So it is a challenge. It's a challenge across retirement planning. And of course solving that problem would mean more benefits paid out or you know, somehow pooling it between spouses. But because every family and every couple is different, coming up with a formula that's comprehensive and fits all situations is very tricky. So I think Gary's putting his finger on you know, a very difficult part of aging and planning any kind of a retirement program, including social security.

That you know, the character of a society is how it takes care of us most vulnerable, and that's the caller Garry is right. I am interested. I don't know if he's anymore, if he ever had a four to one K or a pension at the place where he worked for fifty years. And one of the things that's happened is these defined benefit programs have gone away, and that was a major pillar of people's retirement. And in the absence of those, that's one of the reasons why so many more people are relying upon social Security right now. And so I think the caller makes a great point.

That you know, the character of a society is how it takes care of us most vulnerable, and that's the caller Garry is right. I am interested. I don't know if he's anymore, if he ever had a four to one K or a pension at the place where he worked for fifty years. And one of the things that's happened is these defined benefit programs have gone away, and that was a major pillar of people's retirement. And in the absence of those, that's one of the reasons why so many more people are relying upon social Security right now. And so I think the caller makes a great point.

Yeah, let's go to Peter, who's in Chicago. Peter, welcome to the middle. Do you think social Security will be there for you when you need it?

Yeah, let's go to Peter, who's in Chicago. Peter, welcome to the middle. Do you think social Security will be there for you when you need it?

Hi?

Hi?

Yeah, well, well I certainly hope. So I'm just over fifty and i've sort of I've always assumed that it would be there. I mean, I have been doing planning on my own. But as you said, the pensions don't exist anymore. My parents are both educators, they had pensions. But I don't really know how to fix it. But there's one thing that has always bothered me in the discussions around social security is when people refer to it as an entitlement program, because to me that that has this ring of that the people who are receiving it, I think that they're entitled to something. Well, they actually are entitled to it because they have paid. We've paid into this program our whole lives, and and so that that sort of makes it, you know, it gives it this this false idea that that this is some sort of handout or a gift or you know, something like that, and and it's it's really it's a contract.

Yeah, well, well I certainly hope. So I'm just over fifty and i've sort of I've always assumed that it would be there. I mean, I have been doing planning on my own. But as you said, the pensions don't exist anymore. My parents are both educators, they had pensions. But I don't really know how to fix it. But there's one thing that has always bothered me in the discussions around social security is when people refer to it as an entitlement program, because to me that that has this ring of that the people who are receiving it, I think that they're entitled to something. Well, they actually are entitled to it because they have paid. We've paid into this program our whole lives, and and so that that sort of makes it, you know, it gives it this this false idea that that this is some sort of handout or a gift or you know, something like that, and and it's it's really it's a contract.

Well, how would you fix it?

Well, how would you fix it?

How would I fix social Security?

How would I fix social Security?

Yeah? Would you change any conversation?

Yeah? Would you change any conversation?

Yeah? I think, well, I think that we need to. I do appreciate that you're having in other conversations about this. You are getting people who are in the you know, in their twenties who are calling in and who are aware of this, and and because I think I think we need to have need to change the national conversation around this, and and and and also I mean it's a big cultural shift that needs to happen for for for this to come to a different place.

Yeah? I think, well, I think that we need to. I do appreciate that you're having in other conversations about this. You are getting people who are in the you know, in their twenties who are calling in and who are aware of this, and and because I think I think we need to have need to change the national conversation around this, and and and and also I mean it's a big cultural shift that needs to happen for for for this to come to a different place.

Yea forever, great, Peter, Peter, thank you very much for that. And you know what I said, we were going to get younger calls, and now not just Peter in his early fifties, but we're let's go to somebody in there. Third, pretty young Christian is in Denver. Christian, welcome to the middle.

Yea forever, great, Peter, Peter, thank you very much for that. And you know what I said, we were going to get younger calls, and now not just Peter in his early fifties, but we're let's go to somebody in there. Third, pretty young Christian is in Denver. Christian, welcome to the middle.

Go ahead, Hey, thank you so so much.

Go ahead, Hey, thank you so so much.

So you're thirty, I hear yes.

So you're thirty, I hear yes.

Sir, so, I honestly am planning for retirement without social Security. And the reason and my girlfriend is as well, and the reason being is that the industrial world is undergoing quite the demographic collapse. I mean, look at Japan, look at China, look at Germany, look at Italy and their tax base for people in their twenties and younger, the primary tax source for entitlement programs like social Security, it's drying up. So we are planning for a world where we have an inverted demographic pyramid, and social security relies on the demographic pyramid being healthy. And so yeah, there are ways to fix social security in the short term, such as my parents who are baby boomers can still get the benefits that they're entitled to, but for our generation that's not going to work.

Sir, so, I honestly am planning for retirement without social Security. And the reason and my girlfriend is as well, and the reason being is that the industrial world is undergoing quite the demographic collapse. I mean, look at Japan, look at China, look at Germany, look at Italy and their tax base for people in their twenties and younger, the primary tax source for entitlement programs like social Security, it's drying up. So we are planning for a world where we have an inverted demographic pyramid, and social security relies on the demographic pyramid being healthy. And so yeah, there are ways to fix social security in the short term, such as my parents who are baby boomers can still get the benefits that they're entitled to, but for our generation that's not going to work.

So let me just ask you one quick follow up, Christian, do you feel any are you annoyed when you have to pay part of your paycheck into Social Security given that you don't think you're going to get anything out of it, or do you just it's okay with you?

So let me just ask you one quick follow up, Christian, do you feel any are you annoyed when you have to pay part of your paycheck into Social Security given that you don't think you're going to get anything out of it, or do you just it's okay with you?

I mean, who wouldn't be annoyed by that? But there's you know, there's bigger issues at hands that need to be solved in order for that to be picked. So of course it's annoying, but part of the social contract is this is what I have to do to take care of my parents.

I mean, who wouldn't be annoyed by that? But there's you know, there's bigger issues at hands that need to be solved in order for that to be picked. So of course it's annoying, but part of the social contract is this is what I have to do to take care of my parents.

Christian, thank you very much. Steve Lisman, what do you think about about Christian's views? Now, I'm sure he's not the only one in this country who doesn't think who's that that agent doesn't think they're going to get anything out of Social Security?

Christian, thank you very much. Steve Lisman, what do you think about about Christian's views? Now, I'm sure he's not the only one in this country who doesn't think who's that that agent doesn't think they're going to get anything out of Social Security?

Well, I think he's smart from a couple of different standpoints. I think there will be some reduction in benefits for younger people when they put this thing back, you know, try try to make it solvent again.

Well, I think he's smart from a couple of different standpoints. I think there will be some reduction in benefits for younger people when they put this thing back, you know, try try to make it solvent again.

I think you're.

I think you're.

The agent which you're entitled to get full so security benefits will probably rise. When when Julia talked earlier about the ease with which it's solved, it's solved on both sides of the equation. It's solved on the benefits side. It's solved on the tax side. And that's probably if there ever is a you know, when they do come to a solution, and they will because when it reaches some kind of crisis point, they'll come to it. But but what I try to tell young people is to save as much as possible right now, live below your means. You hear the what I'm saying about that Tolliver right there, that's what you want to do too late. And and here's the deal, which is that old, young, old Tolliver will will thank young Tolliver for doing things like maxing out your four O one K for whatever the company is providing you. Any ability you have to put money away. My guess is that it sounded. You know, I'm guessing Kristen has the ability to do that. Not everybody does. Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck to the extent you can. Saving money for the future is a very easier road to financial freedom and not being at the whins of how the government's going to fix those security.

The agent which you're entitled to get full so security benefits will probably rise. When when Julia talked earlier about the ease with which it's solved, it's solved on both sides of the equation. It's solved on the benefits side. It's solved on the tax side. And that's probably if there ever is a you know, when they do come to a solution, and they will because when it reaches some kind of crisis point, they'll come to it. But but what I try to tell young people is to save as much as possible right now, live below your means. You hear the what I'm saying about that Tolliver right there, that's what you want to do too late. And and here's the deal, which is that old, young, old Tolliver will will thank young Tolliver for doing things like maxing out your four O one K for whatever the company is providing you. Any ability you have to put money away. My guess is that it sounded. You know, I'm guessing Kristen has the ability to do that. Not everybody does. Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck to the extent you can. Saving money for the future is a very easier road to financial freedom and not being at the whins of how the government's going to fix those security.

Juliet Cornetta, your thoughts on that, And let me just ask also, based on what Steve was just saying there, do you think that the government should be spending more attention on getting people to save in addition to what they might get from Social Security, because so many people don't feel like they have enough when they retire.

Juliet Cornetta, your thoughts on that, And let me just ask also, based on what Steve was just saying there, do you think that the government should be spending more attention on getting people to save in addition to what they might get from Social Security, because so many people don't feel like they have enough when they retire.

I would say, I mean for sure, and the government does provide a lot of tax incentives for things like four oh one K programs. But let me just say a couple of things here. One is, I don't like the idea of increasing the retirement age. And here's why, so we already that was one of the reforms in nineteen eighty three that helped, you know, stabilize the program, was raising the normal retirement age from sixty five to sixty seven. But I actually did a lot of research on social Security and the redistribution within the program over your lifetime when I was in graduate schools part of my thesis, and one of the ways that you know, we've got this very progressive tax and benefit structure in the program. But one of the things undoes the progressivity of the program is that I income people tend to live longer, so they draw benefits longer, whereas working class people, people that are working in manual labor jobs, they tend to have shorter life expectancies. So the more we raise the retirement age, the harder it is on people. The other thing, and I know Steve is sympathetic to this because we Steve and I have been through a few cycles, a few crises, if you will, in the macro economy, and when an older worker loses their jobs, they're the last person to get hired. They're often the first fired, last hired. And so a lot of people don't plan for unemployed, for becoming unemployed. They become unemployed unexpectedly in their fifties sixties, and it's a lot harder to find a job that paid what the job you left was. For those reasons, I don't favor raising the retirement agin.

I would say, I mean for sure, and the government does provide a lot of tax incentives for things like four oh one K programs. But let me just say a couple of things here. One is, I don't like the idea of increasing the retirement age. And here's why, so we already that was one of the reforms in nineteen eighty three that helped, you know, stabilize the program, was raising the normal retirement age from sixty five to sixty seven. But I actually did a lot of research on social Security and the redistribution within the program over your lifetime when I was in graduate schools part of my thesis, and one of the ways that you know, we've got this very progressive tax and benefit structure in the program. But one of the things undoes the progressivity of the program is that I income people tend to live longer, so they draw benefits longer, whereas working class people, people that are working in manual labor jobs, they tend to have shorter life expectancies. So the more we raise the retirement age, the harder it is on people. The other thing, and I know Steve is sympathetic to this because we Steve and I have been through a few cycles, a few crises, if you will, in the macro economy, and when an older worker loses their jobs, they're the last person to get hired. They're often the first fired, last hired. And so a lot of people don't plan for unemployed, for becoming unemployed. They become unemployed unexpectedly in their fifties sixties, and it's a lot harder to find a job that paid what the job you left was. For those reasons, I don't favor raising the retirement agin.

I try to exactly where we got where it.

I try to exactly where we got where it.

Is, Jui.

Is, Jui.

Maybe I'm a little I don't know what the word is less humane about this. I see what you're saying about that, but look, people in general are living longer.

Maybe I'm a little I don't know what the word is less humane about this. I see what you're saying about that, but look, people in general are living longer.

It is true that wealthier live.

It is true that wealthier live.

Longer than lower income individuals, but lower income individuals also live longer. And remember what we're talking about. We're talking about access. To use another acronym, the FRA, the full retirement age. It's not as if you cannot get benefits if you retire earlier. But the idea that you could get and plus you, when I talk about the politics of this, I just simply do not see it being solved. If the Republicans are going to agree to something on the tax side, which they have to do, then the Dems have to gree to something on the benefit side. If you saw what happened today, there's been some hearings about a bill in Congress, and the CBO came out with the report, and the Democrats demagogue did and the Republicans have this idea about raising the fright to sixty nine. It could be sixty eight, whatever it is. But I just think if you're gonna be realistic, and this, by the way, applies to solving the deficit problem, you're gonna have to have some decline in spending along with some increase in revenue.

Longer than lower income individuals, but lower income individuals also live longer. And remember what we're talking about. We're talking about access. To use another acronym, the FRA, the full retirement age. It's not as if you cannot get benefits if you retire earlier. But the idea that you could get and plus you, when I talk about the politics of this, I just simply do not see it being solved. If the Republicans are going to agree to something on the tax side, which they have to do, then the Dems have to gree to something on the benefit side. If you saw what happened today, there's been some hearings about a bill in Congress, and the CBO came out with the report, and the Democrats demagogue did and the Republicans have this idea about raising the fright to sixty nine. It could be sixty eight, whatever it is. But I just think if you're gonna be realistic, and this, by the way, applies to solving the deficit problem, you're gonna have to have some decline in spending along with some increase in revenue.

All of that's true. I'm getting the rapper.

All of that's true. I'm getting the rapper.

Well, I'll just let me because we have a full roster of calls right now, let me sneak one more in here. And Edie, who is in Columbia, South Carolina. Edie, welcome to the middle. What do you think about social Security?

Well, I'll just let me because we have a full roster of calls right now, let me sneak one more in here. And Edie, who is in Columbia, South Carolina. Edie, welcome to the middle. What do you think about social Security?

Well, thank you so much for taking my call. Yeah, Honestly, I feel like this is deja vous all over again, because we had this discussion in the late nineties. There were tons of hearings all over Capitol Hill and all over the country on how to reform Social Security. First, I would like to say to Gary, I just watched my father go through the same thing he's going through, and my heart goes out to them. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the surplus that we've talked about, the two percent that was build and not build that was accumulated on Social Security, called the Trust Fund. You know, everyone feels like that's going to be there and giving Social Security a few extra years, But in truth, that trust Fund was actually used as a loan to fund better government programs. So I mean, it's it's just taxing all over again. And you know, I feel like the Reagan and tithononeial reforms weren't really reforms. They were simply tweaking around the edges. Real reform could come, even though difficult, could come from something like for young people making part of this a personal retirement account so that they could accumulate wealth over the time of their lifetime, have an account that they could then own and pass on to their children and therefore you know, actually you know, had generational wealth that would you know, dramatically reduce poverty in the company.

Well, thank you so much for taking my call. Yeah, Honestly, I feel like this is deja vous all over again, because we had this discussion in the late nineties. There were tons of hearings all over Capitol Hill and all over the country on how to reform Social Security. First, I would like to say to Gary, I just watched my father go through the same thing he's going through, and my heart goes out to them. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the surplus that we've talked about, the two percent that was build and not build that was accumulated on Social Security, called the Trust Fund. You know, everyone feels like that's going to be there and giving Social Security a few extra years, But in truth, that trust Fund was actually used as a loan to fund better government programs. So I mean, it's it's just taxing all over again. And you know, I feel like the Reagan and tithononeial reforms weren't really reforms. They were simply tweaking around the edges. Real reform could come, even though difficult, could come from something like for young people making part of this a personal retirement account so that they could accumulate wealth over the time of their lifetime, have an account that they could then own and pass on to their children and therefore you know, actually you know, had generational wealth that would you know, dramatically reduce poverty in the company.

Let me ask let me ask Julia Cornado about that. Julia, it sounds a little like privatization of some of social security. But yeah, what do you think about that idea?

Let me ask let me ask Julia Cornado about that. Julia, it sounds a little like privatization of some of social security. But yeah, what do you think about that idea?

Well, we did explore that in the nineties. You know, there was a few proposals. One was to invest the Social Security Trust Fund in the stock market instead of government bonds. That was problematic because of course, who gets who makes those decisions and you know, and and is there room for you know, how do you decide to invest who controls those investments was was an issue. The other proposal was individual accounts within social Security and I actually went on a journey myself as an economist looking into this policy. I thought that that was a great idea, again for the reasons outlined that, you know, building individual wealth, having more ownership. The details of it, the cost, the administrative costs of individual accounts are astronomical.

Well, we did explore that in the nineties. You know, there was a few proposals. One was to invest the Social Security Trust Fund in the stock market instead of government bonds. That was problematic because of course, who gets who makes those decisions and you know, and and is there room for you know, how do you decide to invest who controls those investments was was an issue. The other proposal was individual accounts within social Security and I actually went on a journey myself as an economist looking into this policy. I thought that that was a great idea, again for the reasons outlined that, you know, building individual wealth, having more ownership. The details of it, the cost, the administrative costs of individual accounts are astronomical.

Well, Tolliver, as we've been mentioning, Social Security started in the wake of the Great Depression.

Well, Tolliver, as we've been mentioning, Social Security started in the wake of the Great Depression.

Yeah, the Social Security Act was signed into law by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in nineteen thirty five. Here's FDR himself.

Yeah, the Social Security Act was signed into law by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in nineteen thirty five. Here's FDR himself.

Because it has become increasingly difficult for individuals to build their own security single handed, government must now step in and help them lay the foundation stones, just as government in the past has helped lay the foundation of business and industry. We must face the fact that in this country we have a rich man security and a poor man security, and that the government owes equal obligations to.

Because it has become increasingly difficult for individuals to build their own security single handed, government must now step in and help them lay the foundation stones, just as government in the past has helped lay the foundation of business and industry. We must face the fact that in this country we have a rich man security and a poor man security, and that the government owes equal obligations to.

Both government government government.

Both government government government.

You know, you know, I got to watch so many FDR videos to get right for that clip, and uh, he was really I mean, he got really energized and excited in some of them. But that accent is really quite something.

You know, you know, I got to watch so many FDR videos to get right for that clip, and uh, he was really I mean, he got really energized and excited in some of them. But that accent is really quite something.

You're gonna be talking like him every.

You're gonna be talking like him every.

People will think that that's how we talk.

People will think that that's how we talk.

You know.

You know.

Eighty years from now, we'll be right back with more of the middle. This is the middle of Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you, will social Security be there for you when you needed? And what, if any reforms would you like to see. You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. I'm joined by CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Lesman and economist Juliette Coronado. And let's go to Lee, who is in New Orleans. Lee, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.

Eighty years from now, we'll be right back with more of the middle. This is the middle of Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you, will social Security be there for you when you needed? And what, if any reforms would you like to see. You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. I'm joined by CNBC senior economics reporter Steve Lesman and economist Juliette Coronado. And let's go to Lee, who is in New Orleans. Lee, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.

Hey guys, Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

Hey guys, Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

Government.

Government.

I know a familiar sound. I have a couple of questions. Forgive him if I don't get the fact exact. But didn't we transfer the bulk of the money at some year, you know, one hundred years back, just the years back, whatever it was, to the general fund, Like there was a pile of money and they just switched it over to the general fund, diluting the amount of money that would still be there had it been left in its own original stage.

I know a familiar sound. I have a couple of questions. Forgive him if I don't get the fact exact. But didn't we transfer the bulk of the money at some year, you know, one hundred years back, just the years back, whatever it was, to the general fund, Like there was a pile of money and they just switched it over to the general fund, diluting the amount of money that would still be there had it been left in its own original stage.

Steve, this is hey Lee, stay stay there, leave but Steve Lee, spend Why don't you answer that question?

Steve, this is hey Lee, stay stay there, leave but Steve Lee, spend Why don't you answer that question?

Lee?

Lee?

You remember Al Gore talking about the lock box lock box, right, There is no lock box.

You remember Al Gore talking about the lock box lock box, right, There is no lock box.

There never was a lock box. It's all just government money.

There never was a lock box. It's all just government money.

It's just this what do you want to say, this precept, this big notion that the money that comes in, just like the highway money for the gas tax, is supposed to go to roads. It doesn't always go to roads or the notion that social security it doesn't work that way. We had a big excess in social security tax payments or revenue, and that funded the government for a while. It just reduced the amount of funding the government had to do. So there's this I don't.

It's just this what do you want to say, this precept, this big notion that the money that comes in, just like the highway money for the gas tax, is supposed to go to roads. It doesn't always go to roads or the notion that social security it doesn't work that way. We had a big excess in social security tax payments or revenue, and that funded the government for a while. It just reduced the amount of funding the government had to do. So there's this I don't.

Know, okay, So from the more point made, the social security should be fairly solvent. And it's a political hot potato the they toss around every year. But I have a brother who's a Social security judge, and he told me some of the most ridiculous things. Wasteful spending on social security's part of social security disability. People that work, they're fifty years old come into his court and say, oh, I can't get a job. I needs help.

Know, okay, So from the more point made, the social security should be fairly solvent. And it's a political hot potato the they toss around every year. But I have a brother who's a Social security judge, and he told me some of the most ridiculous things. Wasteful spending on social security's part of social security disability. People that work, they're fifty years old come into his court and say, oh, I can't get a job. I needs help.

And they look.

And they look.

He looks back and goes, mister so and so, mister John Doe, you've never had a job. But we're paying these guys found dollars a month for the rest of their life. They've never put a penny into it.

He looks back and goes, mister so and so, mister John Doe, you've never had a job. But we're paying these guys found dollars a month for the rest of their life. They've never put a penny into it.

Uh.

Uh.

He said, it's fraught with fraud, it's fraught with wasteful spending. It's ridiculous. It's a typical bureaucratic uh debacle, you know. And and the dichotomy is I'm an old fossil now. I've been putting in since I had a paper route, And am I gonna get it when I'm When I'm just a few years down the line, I'm sure it's still gonna be there. But this whole dichotomy of the inverted pyramid where not as many youngsters are putting in now, I mean, let me.

He said, it's fraught with fraud, it's fraught with wasteful spending. It's ridiculous. It's a typical bureaucratic uh debacle, you know. And and the dichotomy is I'm an old fossil now. I've been putting in since I had a paper route, And am I gonna get it when I'm When I'm just a few years down the line, I'm sure it's still gonna be there. But this whole dichotomy of the inverted pyramid where not as many youngsters are putting in now, I mean, let me.

Let me, let me take that to our guests, and I will say that the only reason I let you ask two questions is because I love your accent from New Orleans. It makes me want to go there right away.

Let me, let me take that to our guests, and I will say that the only reason I let you ask two questions is because I love your accent from New Orleans. It makes me want to go there right away.

But Lee, thank you for that.

But Lee, thank you for that.

Let me let me go to Julia Cornat Julia.

Let me let me go to Julia Cornat Julia.

Uh.

Uh.

Disability is a is a part of Social Security, just like survivor benefits are a part of social security. The main portion, though, of social Security is for senior citizens, retirees.

Disability is a is a part of Social Security, just like survivor benefits are a part of social security. The main portion, though, of social Security is for senior citizens, retirees.

That's right, That's right now.

That's right, That's right now.

Disability actually, in terms of the overall budget is quite a tiny share of it. And one of the really interesting things we've seen in the last oh, I'd say ten years is that actually people we do see people moving off the disability roles. When the job market is strong, you actually see people. It's more worth it to go and get a job, and so, you know, I'm sure there's people that you know, maybe don't deserve the benefits, but really that's not the biggest problem that the program faces, Tulliver.

Disability actually, in terms of the overall budget is quite a tiny share of it. And one of the really interesting things we've seen in the last oh, I'd say ten years is that actually people we do see people moving off the disability roles. When the job market is strong, you actually see people. It's more worth it to go and get a job, and so, you know, I'm sure there's people that you know, maybe don't deserve the benefits, but really that's not the biggest problem that the program faces, Tulliver.

I know a lot of comments are coming in online as well.

I know a lot of comments are coming in online as well.

Absolutely Dion in Desert Hot Springs, California says, I believe that one solution would be for our wealthy people, especially members of Congress, to be booted off the program the same way a welfare recipient would if the latter made too much money. I believe they could reapply should their financial situation change, but if they are rich, they don't need the safety net.

Absolutely Dion in Desert Hot Springs, California says, I believe that one solution would be for our wealthy people, especially members of Congress, to be booted off the program the same way a welfare recipient would if the latter made too much money. I believe they could reapply should their financial situation change, but if they are rich, they don't need the safety net.

Wait wait, wait, Tulliver, Actually that's a really, that's a really, that's something hasn't come up yet. But Steve Leasman means testing people that are rich shouldn't be able to get the benefits. What about that idea?

Wait wait, wait, Tulliver, Actually that's a really, that's a really, that's something hasn't come up yet. But Steve Leasman means testing people that are rich shouldn't be able to get the benefits. What about that idea?

Yeah, well, then you create essentially a welfare program. I mean, that's okay, if that's what you want to do, and then and and and and and the program can survive the politics of that. I think there's a justication. I do believe also that tax on Social Security does go up with wealth. I was trying to afford this program. Understand the taxation on social security. I am not far from having to solve that problem in my real life, but but I do believe it goes up with it.

Yeah, well, then you create essentially a welfare program. I mean, that's okay, if that's what you want to do, and then and and and and and the program can survive the politics of that. I think there's a justication. I do believe also that tax on Social Security does go up with wealth. I was trying to afford this program. Understand the taxation on social security. I am not far from having to solve that problem in my real life, but but I do believe it goes up with it.

It's means tested that way.

It's means tested that way.

But look, it's like I said, part of the solution, My solution is to take a little piece of everything. One of the things you hear and folks at home, I don't think you should buy this is that this problem won't solve it. This solution won't solve the problem. Of course, it won't solve the problem. It'll solve a piece of the problem, as will the tax part, as will the benefit part, as will this getting to compromise. And this show is about the middle. And that's what we lack in this country, is the middle. We don't have people that come and say, come on, folks, use your common sense. If you don't want revenue and you don't want benefits cut, you take a little revenue cut, and I'll take a little benefits cut, and we'll put it together and we'll solve the damn thing. So eight doesn't have to lose sleep at night.

But look, it's like I said, part of the solution, My solution is to take a little piece of everything. One of the things you hear and folks at home, I don't think you should buy this is that this problem won't solve it. This solution won't solve the problem. Of course, it won't solve the problem. It'll solve a piece of the problem, as will the tax part, as will the benefit part, as will this getting to compromise. And this show is about the middle. And that's what we lack in this country, is the middle. We don't have people that come and say, come on, folks, use your common sense. If you don't want revenue and you don't want benefits cut, you take a little revenue cut, and I'll take a little benefits cut, and we'll put it together and we'll solve the damn thing. So eight doesn't have to lose sleep at night.

Let's go to Miles, who's in Edwardsburg, Michigan. Miles, welcome to the middle What do you think about Social Security?

Let's go to Miles, who's in Edwardsburg, Michigan. Miles, welcome to the middle What do you think about Social Security?

Can you hear me?

Can you hear me?

I can hear you?

I can hear you?

Yeah, go ahead, Okay, Hey, I think they go to get rid of the five hundred and sixty thousand limits and just tax people.

Yeah, go ahead, Okay, Hey, I think they go to get rid of the five hundred and sixty thousand limits and just tax people.

Yeah, just tax everybody up to a higher level.

Yeah, just tax everybody up to a higher level.

Yes, And then why do you have to have a limit and get rid of a tax? Don't tax sat Security to when people penalize them for working, they're still paying taxes, they're paying federal, city, state, county, and just let them keep working and they're paying them to. So Security, bad medicare all.

Yes, And then why do you have to have a limit and get rid of a tax? Don't tax sat Security to when people penalize them for working, they're still paying taxes, they're paying federal, city, state, county, and just let them keep working and they're paying them to. So Security, bad medicare all.

Right, myles, thank you. You know, actually, Julia Cornado Donald Trump one of the so there, if you look at what the two candidates want to do about Social Security, the thing that Donald Trump has proposed is not taxing people on their Social Security benefits, which the experts have said would actually make the problem. Harris hasn't talked about it in the campaign, but when you go back and look at some of her previous statements, she has talked about taxing people beyond that one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars cap. But yeah, your thoughts there.

Right, myles, thank you. You know, actually, Julia Cornado Donald Trump one of the so there, if you look at what the two candidates want to do about Social Security, the thing that Donald Trump has proposed is not taxing people on their Social Security benefits, which the experts have said would actually make the problem. Harris hasn't talked about it in the campaign, but when you go back and look at some of her previous statements, she has talked about taxing people beyond that one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars cap. But yeah, your thoughts there.

Again that that is the low hanging fruit. You don't necessarily need to eliminate like eliminate the cap altogether. You can just move it up a lot higher. But that is the easiest way to raise a lot of revenue. That that is the lever that he gives you the most bang for your buck. And then you know, as Steve said, you maybe you need to balance it with some benefit adjustments, and that can be done as well. You know, not taxing Social Security benefits makes the program's finances worse, so that would be going the other direction. But in general, you know, if you look at the kind of the middle household, that middle median household down, social Security has done a phenomenal job protecting people's well being in a very stable, secure way. And most proposals look to keep that, to maintain that, to not balance the program on the backs of the middle but to just take a little bit tax the higher income people a little bit more and and maybe adjust the benefits at that level as well. And again it can be done while protecting the middle down.

Again that that is the low hanging fruit. You don't necessarily need to eliminate like eliminate the cap altogether. You can just move it up a lot higher. But that is the easiest way to raise a lot of revenue. That that is the lever that he gives you the most bang for your buck. And then you know, as Steve said, you maybe you need to balance it with some benefit adjustments, and that can be done as well. You know, not taxing Social Security benefits makes the program's finances worse, so that would be going the other direction. But in general, you know, if you look at the kind of the middle household, that middle median household down, social Security has done a phenomenal job protecting people's well being in a very stable, secure way. And most proposals look to keep that, to maintain that, to not balance the program on the backs of the middle but to just take a little bit tax the higher income people a little bit more and and maybe adjust the benefits at that level as well. And again it can be done while protecting the middle down.

Let's go to William in Philadelphia. William, welcome to the middle. What do you think about Social Security?

Let's go to William in Philadelphia. William, welcome to the middle. What do you think about Social Security?

Well, I bless social Security as far as I'm concerned, because social Security is helping me survive. That's the only income I have.

Well, I bless social Security as far as I'm concerned, because social Security is helping me survive. That's the only income I have.

Are you worried about it going away?

Are you worried about it going away?

It will never go away. And let me tell you something. This is just my opinion. If anybody in Washington says it's going to go away, you think that January sixth, twenty twenty one riot was something you don't want that. Let me tell you something. In my opinion, you do not want that. I've never worried about social Security. I'm seventy two years old now and I never worried about it. Because of what I just said.

It will never go away. And let me tell you something. This is just my opinion. If anybody in Washington says it's going to go away, you think that January sixth, twenty twenty one riot was something you don't want that. Let me tell you something. In my opinion, you do not want that. I've never worried about social Security. I'm seventy two years old now and I never worried about it. Because of what I just said.

You think people will be out in the streets if they made any changes. William thank you for that call. And Steve Leasman, you know, we can't talk about this in a vacuum. There are a lot of issues that are going on right now. But if part of the issue is people paying into Social Security versus the amount of people who are taking the benefits, what about immigration? Does that fit into this discussion?

You think people will be out in the streets if they made any changes. William thank you for that call. And Steve Leasman, you know, we can't talk about this in a vacuum. There are a lot of issues that are going on right now. But if part of the issue is people paying into Social Security versus the amount of people who are taking the benefits, what about immigration? Does that fit into this discussion?

Yeah, cue the hate mail here, because this is where I'm going to get it. One of the rules of economics is there's no free lunch. But immigration is probably the closest thing to a free lunch for Social Security as we could possibly get. The deal is this, immigrants come in, they are younger, they work longer, and especially by the way, undocumented immigrants, they tend to pay into the Social Security system. Sure, some of them work off the books. We'll talk about that a little bit more in a second, but to the extent they're on the books, they pay into the system, and they do and they are not eligible for the benefit of Social Security. Now, there is a great debate about how many undocumented immigrants are paying into the system. What I understand to be the case is that employers tend to be more concerned about not paying taxes for their undocumented immigrants work than they are hiring an undocumented immigrant, because the penalties are so much more severe for that in terms of back taxes. So there's an argument about that. I think people would many people might say, well, they're undocumented immigrants, they're not paying taxes. We do not believe that's the case. There have been several studies that they tend to put billions of dollars into the tax system. Yes, there are other costs that to the undocumented immigrants, but they also tend to pay taxes and cannot receive the benefits. I don't know if our economist Julia Carnado would qualify that as a free lunch, because that would be a violation of economic theory.