The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support The Middle at Listen to Them Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson in Denver, Colorado, this week along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver Fun fact, Denver is consistently at the top of the list of cities with the most downloads of The Middle podcast.

The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support The Middle at Listen to Them Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson in Denver, Colorado, this week along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver Fun fact, Denver is consistently at the top of the list of cities with the most downloads of The Middle podcast.

Really, you know what, that doesn't surprise me. I'm not sure why it doesn't, but it doesn't surprise me. It also has some of the best neighborhood acronyms out there. So you got rhino, you got logo that's a tough one, and lo high.

Really, you know what, that doesn't surprise me. I'm not sure why it doesn't, but it doesn't surprise me. It also has some of the best neighborhood acronyms out there. So you got rhino, you got logo that's a tough one, and lo high.

It's and you don't have Soda Sopa, which was South Park's fake south of downtown south So I've already got I haven't even introduced our guests, and they're already laughing at my jokes. So Colorado is actually the perfect place to talk about the future of American energy because it is both one of the the largest producers of oil and gas in the country and also a hub for clean energy production and research that's wind, solar, geothermal. The state is also home to dozens of climate tech startups and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. It is worth noting, however, that coal and natural gas still play a huge role in generating the state's power, something that is reflected across the country as well. Eighty three percent of our energy nationally still comes from fossil fuels, and while the Biden administration passed legislation to move America away from those fuels and towards cleaner sources of energy production and consumption, President Trump made it clear he has different priorities.

It's and you don't have Soda Sopa, which was South Park's fake south of downtown south So I've already got I haven't even introduced our guests, and they're already laughing at my jokes. So Colorado is actually the perfect place to talk about the future of American energy because it is both one of the the largest producers of oil and gas in the country and also a hub for clean energy production and research that's wind, solar, geothermal. The state is also home to dozens of climate tech startups and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. It is worth noting, however, that coal and natural gas still play a huge role in generating the state's power, something that is reflected across the country as well. Eighty three percent of our energy nationally still comes from fossil fuels, and while the Biden administration passed legislation to move America away from those fuels and towards cleaner sources of energy production and consumption, President Trump made it clear he has different priorities.

As you've heard me say many times, we have more liquid gold under our feet than any nation on Earth and by far, and now I fully authorized the most talented team ever assembled to go and get it. It's called Drill, Baby, Drill.

As you've heard me say many times, we have more liquid gold under our feet than any nation on Earth and by far, and now I fully authorized the most talented team ever assembled to go and get it. It's called Drill, Baby, Drill.

The President has also halted aproved for wind farms and stopped allowing large solar arrays on public land. So this hour, we're asking you, what do you want the future of American energy to look like? Tolliver, what is the phone number?

The President has also halted aproved for wind farms and stopped allowing large solar arrays on public land. So this hour, we're asking you, what do you want the future of American energy to look like? Tolliver, what is the phone number?

It's eight four four four middle, that's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and.

It's eight four four four middle, that's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and.

Twitch, following us all of them at the same time. Joining us on the panel this hour former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter. He's also the founder of the Center for the New Energy Economy at Colorado State University. Governor, great to have you on the show.

Twitch, following us all of them at the same time. Joining us on the panel this hour former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter. He's also the founder of the Center for the New Energy Economy at Colorado State University. Governor, great to have you on the show.

Thank you, it's great to be here. I appreciate it. Jeremy, I should say I left Colorado State University. I'm now a partner at Freestone Strategies here in Colorado.

Thank you, it's great to be here. I appreciate it. Jeremy, I should say I left Colorado State University. I'm now a partner at Freestone Strategies here in Colorado.

But you will be the founder forever of that center.

But you will be the founder forever of that center.

I will be.

I will be.

Lynn Granger joins us as well. She's president and CEO of the Colorado Oil and Gas Association. Lynn, Welcome to the Middle.

Lynn Granger joins us as well. She's president and CEO of the Colorado Oil and Gas Association. Lynn, Welcome to the Middle.

Thanks Jeremy, thanks for having me.

Thanks Jeremy, thanks for having me.

So before we get to the phones, let's just talk about where we are right now with our energy Governor. Last year, your solar and wind generated more electricity in the US than coal for the first time. Solar and wind about seventeen percent combined coal fifteen percent natural gas, though still makes up forty percent of electricity generation nuclear around nineteen. How do you feel about that mix? Is that a new energy economy?

So before we get to the phones, let's just talk about where we are right now with our energy Governor. Last year, your solar and wind generated more electricity in the US than coal for the first time. Solar and wind about seventeen percent combined coal fifteen percent natural gas, though still makes up forty percent of electricity generation nuclear around nineteen. How do you feel about that mix? Is that a new energy economy?

Well, it's certainly a transition from when we established the term new energy economy. I ran as a candidate and called it that, And you know, we were looking at State at the time had like two hundred megawatson wind on the grid. We're going to be at forty five percent for just Excel Energy, biggest power producer, biggest provider of electricity in Colorado. So if you think about kind of that short timeframe, I think it's really important instead of looking at this as a static thing in twenty twenty five, to understand that if I had said we're going to get to this place to where we are now with wind and solar together in Colorado, if I'd said that back in two thousand and eight, there were not have been very many believers. In fact, the biggest advocates back then we're asking me if we could get to twenty five percent renewable by twenty twenty five. They kind of had a slogan twenty five by twenty five, and we're way beyond that and actually moving toward that. We've had administration since mine that have done some pretty remarkable things. The Police administration put in a fifty percent reduction in emissions by twenty thirty economy wide. They're going to rely heavily on the power sector to do that. So Excel Energy is going to reduce the submissions by eighty to eighty five percent, and tri State, an independent power producer for rules, is going to do the same thing. That's a really important step to understand. That happened in a pretty short time.

Well, it's certainly a transition from when we established the term new energy economy. I ran as a candidate and called it that, And you know, we were looking at State at the time had like two hundred megawatson wind on the grid. We're going to be at forty five percent for just Excel Energy, biggest power producer, biggest provider of electricity in Colorado. So if you think about kind of that short timeframe, I think it's really important instead of looking at this as a static thing in twenty twenty five, to understand that if I had said we're going to get to this place to where we are now with wind and solar together in Colorado, if I'd said that back in two thousand and eight, there were not have been very many believers. In fact, the biggest advocates back then we're asking me if we could get to twenty five percent renewable by twenty twenty five. They kind of had a slogan twenty five by twenty five, and we're way beyond that and actually moving toward that. We've had administration since mine that have done some pretty remarkable things. The Police administration put in a fifty percent reduction in emissions by twenty thirty economy wide. They're going to rely heavily on the power sector to do that. So Excel Energy is going to reduce the submissions by eighty to eighty five percent, and tri State, an independent power producer for rules, is going to do the same thing. That's a really important step to understand. That happened in a pretty short time.

Lynn. I'm glad you're here because I don't want to have this conversation in a vacuum. Oil and gas still make up the vast majority of our energy production in this country, but they're not renewable. They're harmful to the environment. We know that. How much should oil and gas do you think makeup of our energy future?

Lynn. I'm glad you're here because I don't want to have this conversation in a vacuum. Oil and gas still make up the vast majority of our energy production in this country, but they're not renewable. They're harmful to the environment. We know that. How much should oil and gas do you think makeup of our energy future?

I think our energy future is incredibly important, and you're right, eighty percent in Colorado, nationally and globally still relies on the use of fossil fuels for energy. I think our interview g future is absolutely in all of the above energy mix, But I think the problem is it can't be in none of the below, and I think that's a lot of the conversations that we're hearing. It can't be no natural gas and no oil. I don't think that's feasible. I don't think that's a reasonable conversation to have, even with the goals that we have set, and so I think we really need to focus on rational conversations about what is reasonable and what is possible for us to do.

I think our energy future is incredibly important, and you're right, eighty percent in Colorado, nationally and globally still relies on the use of fossil fuels for energy. I think our interview g future is absolutely in all of the above energy mix, But I think the problem is it can't be in none of the below, and I think that's a lot of the conversations that we're hearing. It can't be no natural gas and no oil. I don't think that's feasible. I don't think that's a reasonable conversation to have, even with the goals that we have set, and so I think we really need to focus on rational conversations about what is reasonable and what is possible for us to do.

So on that point, none of the below. Would you also say that when President Trump says he wants to stop all new wind development, is that is that the wrong approach? Which should it be all of the above?

So on that point, none of the below. Would you also say that when President Trump says he wants to stop all new wind development, is that is that the wrong approach? Which should it be all of the above?

We absolutely believe it should be all of the above. A lot of our members are heavily invested in the renewable space as well. You know, we've got one member that has the largest solar farm in the nation right here in Pueblo, Colorado. So I think it's absolutely in all of the above solution.

We absolutely believe it should be all of the above. A lot of our members are heavily invested in the renewable space as well. You know, we've got one member that has the largest solar farm in the nation right here in Pueblo, Colorado. So I think it's absolutely in all of the above solution.

Governor, how much do renewables rely still on subsidies from the government. I actually will say I have solar power at home, which was cheaper for me on day one than sticking with my current electricity bill, but that's in part thanks to subsidies.

Governor, how much do renewables rely still on subsidies from the government. I actually will say I have solar power at home, which was cheaper for me on day one than sticking with my current electricity bill, but that's in part thanks to subsidies.

Well, it's a really interesting question, and I want to put it in some context. All of our energy policy has been managed around the tax policies, and a lot of it around subsidies. When I was governor, the Congress was looking at taken away the independent drilling costs, which is a tax credit that oil and gaskets. We in this state subsidize oil and gas by giving them an eighty seven and a half percent tax credit against their advalorm tax. So people like to demonize the subsidies around wind and solar, there's no doubt they're important, and they were reflected in the Inflation Reduction Act. We can see both wind, solar, and then as storage as well all have subsidies in there. So does carbon capture and sequestration, So does geothermal, so does advanced nuclear, all all of these different things, and they're just kind of how we manage it. So it's much cheaper because of it. But what happened, and I'll just be quick about this, what happened is we utilize those tax credits to really create economies of scale. And because of that, I've seen the price of wind come down about eighty five percent since I was governor fifteen years ago. The price of solar came down about ninety The price of storage came down as well, about ninety percent. Those are tremendous reductions. Probably would have happened without initial subsidies. But don't forget we manage our energy policy with tax subsidies.

Well, it's a really interesting question, and I want to put it in some context. All of our energy policy has been managed around the tax policies, and a lot of it around subsidies. When I was governor, the Congress was looking at taken away the independent drilling costs, which is a tax credit that oil and gaskets. We in this state subsidize oil and gas by giving them an eighty seven and a half percent tax credit against their advalorm tax. So people like to demonize the subsidies around wind and solar, there's no doubt they're important, and they were reflected in the Inflation Reduction Act. We can see both wind, solar, and then as storage as well all have subsidies in there. So does carbon capture and sequestration, So does geothermal, so does advanced nuclear, all all of these different things, and they're just kind of how we manage it. So it's much cheaper because of it. But what happened, and I'll just be quick about this, what happened is we utilize those tax credits to really create economies of scale. And because of that, I've seen the price of wind come down about eighty five percent since I was governor fifteen years ago. The price of solar came down about ninety The price of storage came down as well, about ninety percent. Those are tremendous reductions. Probably would have happened without initial subsidies. But don't forget we manage our energy policy with tax subsidies.

What do you think about the subsidies, Well, so I think one, I'm the eighty seven point five percent is our ad of alarm task credit. That really is so we're not double taxed. Right, A lot of our tax goes at the state level where production occurs here in the state. So that's again, so learn we're not double tax And I think yes, I think subsidies have been used in the past. They've been used in our industry. They're used in renewables as well. Again, I think that's that's part of it, and it's helpful.

What do you think about the subsidies, Well, so I think one, I'm the eighty seven point five percent is our ad of alarm task credit. That really is so we're not double taxed. Right, A lot of our tax goes at the state level where production occurs here in the state. So that's again, so learn we're not double tax And I think yes, I think subsidies have been used in the past. They've been used in our industry. They're used in renewables as well. Again, I think that's that's part of it, and it's helpful.

I think there really were some thing is that in the conversations happening in Congress about the Inflationia Reduction Act, there's really a focus, I think on the renewable energy tax credits and the storage tax credit, the electric vehicle tax credit that those things are likely to be put on the chopping block. There's some likelihood and that the other tax credits where we manage our energy policy are not.

I think there really were some thing is that in the conversations happening in Congress about the Inflationia Reduction Act, there's really a focus, I think on the renewable energy tax credits and the storage tax credit, the electric vehicle tax credit that those things are likely to be put on the chopping block. There's some likelihood and that the other tax credits where we manage our energy policy are not.

And so the industry said to.

And so the industry said to.

Me a long time ago, and I really listened to him that, you know, we don't want to pick winners and losers. The United States Congress is doing that right now as they read across the changes in the Inflation Reduction Act.

Me a long time ago, and I really listened to him that, you know, we don't want to pick winners and losers. The United States Congress is doing that right now as they read across the changes in the Inflation Reduction Act.

Let's get a call in and Eric is in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Eric, welcome to the middle. What do you think the US energy future should be?

Let's get a call in and Eric is in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Eric, welcome to the middle. What do you think the US energy future should be?

Yes, I'd just like to say I think it should be drill, baby, drill. I think it should be fossil fuels because for a couple of reasons. First thing is that China and India they're using fossil fuels, and we are in a manufacturing fight. If you will UH to bring manufacturing back to the US, then we need to have a reliable grid, especially with the Trump techs UH tariffs. If companies do start to come back to the US, then we need to have a grid that can support UH factories. Additional UH factories and fossil fuels are going to be the way to go, whether it's natural gas or oil or coal.

Yes, I'd just like to say I think it should be drill, baby, drill. I think it should be fossil fuels because for a couple of reasons. First thing is that China and India they're using fossil fuels, and we are in a manufacturing fight. If you will UH to bring manufacturing back to the US, then we need to have a reliable grid, especially with the Trump techs UH tariffs. If companies do start to come back to the US, then we need to have a grid that can support UH factories. Additional UH factories and fossil fuels are going to be the way to go, whether it's natural gas or oil or coal.

And that.

And that.

Be a part of that of that grid.

Be a part of that of that grid.

Eric, I think in some some States. But you know Germany a few years ago they tried to switch over and they had some very big problems with their industrials. Uh that in their industrial plants, some of them were shutting down, they didn't have enough fuel. And and so I think we need to learn from from from from their error and not try to duplicate it here.

Eric, I think in some some States. But you know Germany a few years ago they tried to switch over and they had some very big problems with their industrials. Uh that in their industrial plants, some of them were shutting down, they didn't have enough fuel. And and so I think we need to learn from from from from their error and not try to duplicate it here.

Eric, thank you for that call. Lyn Granger. He brings up China, and I just want to ask for your response to that. But also the fact is that China is spending way more on clean energy technology as well, and may end up being the exporter of that because they're putting so much into the research on that front.

Eric, thank you for that call. Lyn Granger. He brings up China, and I just want to ask for your response to that. But also the fact is that China is spending way more on clean energy technology as well, and may end up being the exporter of that because they're putting so much into the research on that front.

Yeah, so I think he brings up a good point, and I would just point out, you know, our world is using more coal in the last few years than we have in the history of our world, and that's because China, places like China, and you're bringing on more coal plants. So I think as we look to, you know, invest in renewables, I think it's important to remember that we can't solve climate change from Colorado or the US. It's it is a global problem that we need to address, and I think we shouldn't hurt our state, our country, our economy in the process of that.

Yeah, so I think he brings up a good point, and I would just point out, you know, our world is using more coal in the last few years than we have in the history of our world, and that's because China, places like China, and you're bringing on more coal plants. So I think as we look to, you know, invest in renewables, I think it's important to remember that we can't solve climate change from Colorado or the US. It's it is a global problem that we need to address, and I think we shouldn't hurt our state, our country, our economy in the process of that.

What would you say, briefly, Governor, just that Carlisle is this international group that you know, is anment group that looks at this. They just said, they just released a Reportant said, China did not is not made the big push on electric vehicles or clean energy because of the paris of courts, which is climate right. They did it because of the business case and for energy security. So we can talk about climate and talk about you know, clean air, but also we have to look at the health of implications of it, but even more importantly the energy security implications. And I think there's some real negative energy security implications to do what Eric is suggesting.

What would you say, briefly, Governor, just that Carlisle is this international group that you know, is anment group that looks at this. They just said, they just released a Reportant said, China did not is not made the big push on electric vehicles or clean energy because of the paris of courts, which is climate right. They did it because of the business case and for energy security. So we can talk about climate and talk about you know, clean air, but also we have to look at the health of implications of it, but even more importantly the energy security implications. And I think there's some real negative energy security implications to do what Eric is suggesting.

Tolliver, you know, if you drive across many states in this country, including Oklahoma and Texas, you will see a whole lot of wind farms.

Tolliver, you know, if you drive across many states in this country, including Oklahoma and Texas, you will see a whole lot of wind farms.

Yeah, and some of that is due to a now deceased oil tycoon named t Boone Pickens who decided to go all in on wind back in two thousand and eight.

Yeah, and some of that is due to a now deceased oil tycoon named t Boone Pickens who decided to go all in on wind back in two thousand and eight.

America is blissed with one of the best wind corridors in the world. Using private investment and technology that already exists, we can supply twenty percent of our electricity needs freeing us to build a bridge to domestic alternative fuels for transportation and break the stranglehold. Fore and off, I'm Tea Boone Pickens. This plan will work, but it needs your help.

America is blissed with one of the best wind corridors in the world. Using private investment and technology that already exists, we can supply twenty percent of our electricity needs freeing us to build a bridge to domestic alternative fuels for transportation and break the stranglehold. Fore and off, I'm Tea Boone Pickens. This plan will work, but it needs your help.

Join me.

Join me.

We can take back our energy future.

We can take back our energy future.

Well.

Well.

Unfortunately, Tibun Pickens said he lost two hundred million dollars in the wind business. Tolliver TiVo, No, that's just as much as we have lost on our podcast extra so far. We'll be right back with more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're in Denver, Colorado, asking you what do you want the future of American energy to look like? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?

Unfortunately, Tibun Pickens said he lost two hundred million dollars in the wind business. Tolliver TiVo, No, that's just as much as we have lost on our podcast extra so far. We'll be right back with more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're in Denver, Colorado, asking you what do you want the future of American energy to look like? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or on all social media.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or on all social media.

I'm joined by Colorado Oil and Gas Association President Lynn Granger and former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter. And before we get back to the phones, Bill Ritter, how likely is it that the kind of energy we will use in the future is something that we're not even using yet. We don't even know what it is yet. I remember playing SimCity two thousand and we had few fusion power plants. Those really change the game, but we don't have those yet.

I'm joined by Colorado Oil and Gas Association President Lynn Granger and former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter. And before we get back to the phones, Bill Ritter, how likely is it that the kind of energy we will use in the future is something that we're not even using yet. We don't even know what it is yet. I remember playing SimCity two thousand and we had few fusion power plants. Those really change the game, but we don't have those yet.

No, we do have a study center at Colorida State University. It's a pretty advanced laser fusion center. There are fusion centers in Washington, the state at Washington. So people will say fusion is possible, but it's not near term, you know. And so that's the thing we have to think about near term and the answer and why I think Lynn and I probably have some places of agreement on this, The answer is that it's not a technology that we know right now. It's going to be some mix of renewables of storage and then either carbon capture and sequestration for natural gas or even coal or nuclear, some advanced nuclear. But that's not near term either. And so if we're really concerned about what we're going to do about CO two in the air and what we're going to do about greenhouse gases. There's not a present day technology that is going to happen without either nuclear carbon caption sequestration geothermal.

No, we do have a study center at Colorida State University. It's a pretty advanced laser fusion center. There are fusion centers in Washington, the state at Washington. So people will say fusion is possible, but it's not near term, you know. And so that's the thing we have to think about near term and the answer and why I think Lynn and I probably have some places of agreement on this, The answer is that it's not a technology that we know right now. It's going to be some mix of renewables of storage and then either carbon capture and sequestration for natural gas or even coal or nuclear, some advanced nuclear. But that's not near term either. And so if we're really concerned about what we're going to do about CO two in the air and what we're going to do about greenhouse gases. There's not a present day technology that is going to happen without either nuclear carbon caption sequestration geothermal.

Do you agree with that, Lynn, I absolutely agree with that. And actually I spent a lot of time in the Midwest where they're trying to get a very large CCS project underway, and I think it's it's really tough. I think there's not a lot of support for it on either side of the Aisle. I think while I was there, I think the Democrats really looked at it as you know, a continuance on the on the use of fossil fuels, and Republicans really looked at technology like that as kind of part of this green New Deal that they didn't really want to be a part of. And so we talked about, you know, the inflatent Redustion Act and a lot of the credits that were available there for projects like these, and I just I think there's going to be a really hard time kind of getting these permitted and getting them off the ground.

Do you agree with that, Lynn, I absolutely agree with that. And actually I spent a lot of time in the Midwest where they're trying to get a very large CCS project underway, and I think it's it's really tough. I think there's not a lot of support for it on either side of the Aisle. I think while I was there, I think the Democrats really looked at it as you know, a continuance on the on the use of fossil fuels, and Republicans really looked at technology like that as kind of part of this green New Deal that they didn't really want to be a part of. And so we talked about, you know, the inflatent Redustion Act and a lot of the credits that were available there for projects like these, and I just I think there's going to be a really hard time kind of getting these permitted and getting them off the ground.

It, Yeah, go ahead.

It, Yeah, go ahead.

I think getting to net zero by twenty forty or twenty fifty is this really important goal that could drive the innovation that gets us there.

I think getting to net zero by twenty forty or twenty fifty is this really important goal that could drive the innovation that gets us there.

Let's go to Scott, who's in Oberlin, Ohio. Hi, Scott, come to the middle. Do you think the future of American energy should be?

Let's go to Scott, who's in Oberlin, Ohio. Hi, Scott, come to the middle. Do you think the future of American energy should be?

Well, first, I want to say hello, folks. I love your show, and man, I really dig your music's editor does a really great job. So look, I've been studying energy since the sixties, in the seventies. I'm old, I'm sixties. I'm in my sixties. But I've studied a lot on it and I've looked. I mean, it's like I've been to all different kind of energy production facilities and stuff, looking around and studying them and everything. And I grew up with nuclear reactors because my dad worked Trenassa here in Cleveland at the Lewis Centers. So they were designing reactors to power Moon bases and space stations and Mars bases. And they were talking about this stuff in the fifties and the sixties, and they were putting them together and testing them in the sixties in the early seventies. And then I became against them after Three Mile Island because we all got scared about that.

Well, first, I want to say hello, folks. I love your show, and man, I really dig your music's editor does a really great job. So look, I've been studying energy since the sixties, in the seventies. I'm old, I'm sixties. I'm in my sixties. But I've studied a lot on it and I've looked. I mean, it's like I've been to all different kind of energy production facilities and stuff, looking around and studying them and everything. And I grew up with nuclear reactors because my dad worked Trenassa here in Cleveland at the Lewis Centers. So they were designing reactors to power Moon bases and space stations and Mars bases. And they were talking about this stuff in the fifties and the sixties, and they were putting them together and testing them in the sixties in the early seventies. And then I became against them after Three Mile Island because we all got scared about that.

And you think nuclear should be part of the future now, Oh.

And you think nuclear should be part of the future now, Oh.

Well, that's the thing. I was against it, and then I started working with environmental groups. I actually got paid by Green Feast to research nuclear power back in ninety one. And the more I learned over the courses, and this is before computers, so I had to go to research libraries and querry and get stuff sent to you. But the more I read and the more I learned trying to find the nail where you know, the nuclear industry lied decades ago, the more I found out that, man, it's like, maybe we really need to start doing this stuff.

Well, that's the thing. I was against it, and then I started working with environmental groups. I actually got paid by Green Feast to research nuclear power back in ninety one. And the more I learned over the courses, and this is before computers, so I had to go to research libraries and querry and get stuff sent to you. But the more I read and the more I learned trying to find the nail where you know, the nuclear industry lied decades ago, the more I found out that, man, it's like, maybe we really need to start doing this stuff.

Yeah, thank you so much for that. Call the Bill Ritter. I'm sure nuclear is going to come up again because the last time we did a show that was involving energy, and we didn't even expect it, a lot of people called in and said they want nuclear.

Yeah, thank you so much for that. Call the Bill Ritter. I'm sure nuclear is going to come up again because the last time we did a show that was involving energy, and we didn't even expect it, a lot of people called in and said they want nuclear.

You know, the Colorado legislature passed a bill that puts nuclear in the category of renewable energy as part of our Portfolio Standard and our Clean Energy standard. And so if the Colorado legislator legislature controlled by Democrats did that, I think it's very likely to be a nation national conversation.

You know, the Colorado legislature passed a bill that puts nuclear in the category of renewable energy as part of our Portfolio Standard and our Clean Energy standard. And so if the Colorado legislator legislature controlled by Democrats did that, I think it's very likely to be a nation national conversation.

The problem is we don't know how much it costs.

The problem is we don't know how much it costs.

The last reactor that we built in America, we built in Georgia was the cost overruns are substantial. Its rate based, so the customers are paying for that. Bill Gates is trying to build a reactor along with the Department of Energy that uses a sodium cool technology different than conventional reactors, but we haven't penciled that out and we don't know when it would be effective, so it's not a near term solution to reduce in emissions. And then finally, there are these small modular reactors that have been developed in Idaho, but they've not been deployed anybody and again not penciled out. And so people want affordable, reliable, and now clean energy, and nuclear is two out of the three. Right, it's reliable and it's clean. But to know yet whether it's affordable or not, it's too early.

The last reactor that we built in America, we built in Georgia was the cost overruns are substantial. Its rate based, so the customers are paying for that. Bill Gates is trying to build a reactor along with the Department of Energy that uses a sodium cool technology different than conventional reactors, but we haven't penciled that out and we don't know when it would be effective, so it's not a near term solution to reduce in emissions. And then finally, there are these small modular reactors that have been developed in Idaho, but they've not been deployed anybody and again not penciled out. And so people want affordable, reliable, and now clean energy, and nuclear is two out of the three. Right, it's reliable and it's clean. But to know yet whether it's affordable or not, it's too early.

Well, and of course then there are those moments like Three Mile Island, and I remember Fukushima in Japan, and you know, things that can really scare people away from nuclear power.

Well, and of course then there are those moments like Three Mile Island, and I remember Fukushima in Japan, and you know, things that can really scare people away from nuclear power.

Are opening Three Mile Island again.

Are opening Three Mile Island again.

Yet I do know that I think power the data centers right.

Yet I do know that I think power the data centers right.

Power purchase agreement for that.

Power purchase agreement for that.

Let's go to Richard who's in Buford Wyoming. Richard, Sorry if I pronounced the name of your town wrong, but go ahead. What do you think?

Let's go to Richard who's in Buford Wyoming. Richard, Sorry if I pronounced the name of your town wrong, but go ahead. What do you think?

Thanks for taking the call. I really have a question. You know, the slogan drill, Baby, drill kind of paints a picture that our government can actually just go and just start taking oil out of the ground. And if I'm not mistaken, there's still the private sector out there that is is getting leases, they're holding on the leases, they're using some of the leases. And what part of this process when our presidents uses that slogan is realistic and what part is still based on the private sector and those oil companies deciding how much oil they're going to pull out of the ground.

Thanks for taking the call. I really have a question. You know, the slogan drill, Baby, drill kind of paints a picture that our government can actually just go and just start taking oil out of the ground. And if I'm not mistaken, there's still the private sector out there that is is getting leases, they're holding on the leases, they're using some of the leases. And what part of this process when our presidents uses that slogan is realistic and what part is still based on the private sector and those oil companies deciding how much oil they're going to pull out of the ground.

Richard, great question, Linn. I'll go to you on that, and note that you know, last year, even before Trump came in, I think, was a record production in the US for oil.

Richard, great question, Linn. I'll go to you on that, and note that you know, last year, even before Trump came in, I think, was a record production in the US for oil.

Yeah, so just a couple of things. I think in terms of increasing production, there's a couple of things that can happen. You know, they can open up more federal lands for production. They can open up more offshore leaf sales as well, which were you know, largely stalled during the Biden administration as well. But I to your point, I think, you know, there's still a very long permit process that is involved with any sort of production of oil and natural gas in our country, you know, at the federal level, at the state level, and at the local level. And so there's still lots of lots of red tape, lots of regulations that need to be adhered to in order to get those permits in order to drill.

Yeah, so just a couple of things. I think in terms of increasing production, there's a couple of things that can happen. You know, they can open up more federal lands for production. They can open up more offshore leaf sales as well, which were you know, largely stalled during the Biden administration as well. But I to your point, I think, you know, there's still a very long permit process that is involved with any sort of production of oil and natural gas in our country, you know, at the federal level, at the state level, and at the local level. And so there's still lots of lots of red tape, lots of regulations that need to be adhered to in order to get those permits in order to drill.

Even if Trump says drill, baby, drill, that doesn't necessarily mean that that happens right away.

Even if Trump says drill, baby, drill, that doesn't necessarily mean that that happens right away.

Correct.

Correct.

Absolutely, Let's go to Cordel, who's in Salt Lake City. Cordell, Welcome to the middle What do you think, Well, I'd like.

Absolutely, Let's go to Cordel, who's in Salt Lake City. Cordell, Welcome to the middle What do you think, Well, I'd like.

To know what the costs are going to be to throw away the last sixteen years of researching solar and wind power as well as recently it's become more positive here in Utah to use geothermal energy because we have a large source of geothermal and to fall back onto coal and to petroleum is kind of a waste of money because at the same time, the oil companies are not going to produce more gas wells because they already have a bunch that are cemented from this nineteen seventies and eighties and nineties that they drilled back then and they've been holding onto because of the for the cost of oil to go up and up and up, and the more you produce, the oil goes down.

To know what the costs are going to be to throw away the last sixteen years of researching solar and wind power as well as recently it's become more positive here in Utah to use geothermal energy because we have a large source of geothermal and to fall back onto coal and to petroleum is kind of a waste of money because at the same time, the oil companies are not going to produce more gas wells because they already have a bunch that are cemented from this nineteen seventies and eighties and nineties that they drilled back then and they've been holding onto because of the for the cost of oil to go up and up and up, and the more you produce, the oil goes down.

Correct.

Correct.

So that's a waste of time, Okay to produce coal, and to produce coal, you've got to dig it out of the ground. And you know, we we might think we have the facilities to do it, but we don't. And nuclear is a good option. But here in Utah we have one of the biggest dumping grounds for nuclear waste right that there is in the US.

So that's a waste of time, Okay to produce coal, and to produce coal, you've got to dig it out of the ground. And you know, we we might think we have the facilities to do it, but we don't. And nuclear is a good option. But here in Utah we have one of the biggest dumping grounds for nuclear waste right that there is in the US.

So, Cordell, I'm gonna I'm gonna take one of the points that you made there to the governor, which is he's saying that it would be it's a it would be a waste to throw away all this research into solar and wind. That probably that because Trump doesn't want to focus on that now, and maybe they start pulling back on some of the things in the Inflation Reduction Act that provided subsidies and credits for going into these cleaner energy fuels. Is that a waste of money, then no, it's.

So, Cordell, I'm gonna I'm gonna take one of the points that you made there to the governor, which is he's saying that it would be it's a it would be a waste to throw away all this research into solar and wind. That probably that because Trump doesn't want to focus on that now, and maybe they start pulling back on some of the things in the Inflation Reduction Act that provided subsidies and credits for going into these cleaner energy fuels. Is that a waste of money, then no, it's.

Not a waste of money. I think that we've advanced the technology and solar probably bigger advancements in storage. We have big advancements in wind and wind energy, and like I said, the costs have come down tremendously. Taking away that tax credits may sort of delay the deployment of those things, but it's not a waste. We have the best research facility for renewable energy in the world here in Golden Colorado, the National Renewal Energy Laboratory. They're not going to quit working on this. I don't believe.

Not a waste of money. I think that we've advanced the technology and solar probably bigger advancements in storage. We have big advancements in wind and wind energy, and like I said, the costs have come down tremendously. Taking away that tax credits may sort of delay the deployment of those things, but it's not a waste. We have the best research facility for renewable energy in the world here in Golden Colorado, the National Renewal Energy Laboratory. They're not going to quit working on this. I don't believe.

I just got a text message from Tolliver that said, we have one million comments online.

I just got a text message from Tolliver that said, we have one million comments online.

How dare you tell them our secrets? John and Harvard, Illinois says the path for it should be natural gas, nuclear build out and geothermal and pumped tydro where appropriate. That's it I want to I do want to say that ninety percent of these comments are pro nuclear, So here's two that aren't. John Ferrill in Minnesota says evidence suggests that renewable energy and energy storage is going to be far less expensive than building new gas fired power plants. If we want affordable, abundant energy, then clean energy is our best hope. See research from our m I in Colorado. And then Tie has a fiery one. Tie in Idaho says, where's the voice that questions the assumption that evermore energy is needed? What is it going towards? How much does it take to power the AI engines?

How dare you tell them our secrets? John and Harvard, Illinois says the path for it should be natural gas, nuclear build out and geothermal and pumped tydro where appropriate. That's it I want to I do want to say that ninety percent of these comments are pro nuclear, So here's two that aren't. John Ferrill in Minnesota says evidence suggests that renewable energy and energy storage is going to be far less expensive than building new gas fired power plants. If we want affordable, abundant energy, then clean energy is our best hope. See research from our m I in Colorado. And then Tie has a fiery one. Tie in Idaho says, where's the voice that questions the assumption that evermore energy is needed? What is it going towards? How much does it take to power the AI engines?

For example?

For example?

The assumption that the economy and its attendant energy production must ever grow seems to me like madness.

The assumption that the economy and its attendant energy production must ever grow seems to me like madness.

What do you think about that, lend Granger?

What do you think about that, lend Granger?

Well, so I want to offer some context for that, because as we talk about our energy future and there is going to be a demand for you know, more AI. I think people are playing around with chat GPT and they're using it at work and they're using it at home. That's going to call for a lot more data centers. And just to put some context around the energy use for AI AI, if you query chat GPT for something that uses four times more energy than sending an email, ten times more energy than doing a Google search, and if you move over to images and video, twenty seven more times energy to have AI create an image and two hundred and forty five times more energy for a video. So I do think as we you know, start using this technology more, our energy is going our energy need is going to increase substantially.

Well, so I want to offer some context for that, because as we talk about our energy future and there is going to be a demand for you know, more AI. I think people are playing around with chat GPT and they're using it at work and they're using it at home. That's going to call for a lot more data centers. And just to put some context around the energy use for AI AI, if you query chat GPT for something that uses four times more energy than sending an email, ten times more energy than doing a Google search, and if you move over to images and video, twenty seven more times energy to have AI create an image and two hundred and forty five times more energy for a video. So I do think as we you know, start using this technology more, our energy is going our energy need is going to increase substantially.

Yeah, Puyah is calling from Atlanta. Georgia. Welcome to the middle What do you think the energy future should be?

Yeah, Puyah is calling from Atlanta. Georgia. Welcome to the middle What do you think the energy future should be?

Hi there, Thanks for having me. I think the energy future has to go back to a renewed emphasis on education. We are no longer the education and research leaders of the world. Just the other day, China is launching a solar array in space. Other countries are looking at micro nuclear. We need to make sure that we're thinking on one hundred and twenty five year timeline as well as the next quarter timeline, and all of that comes back to education. We have to make sure that people at are funding research and not lobbying against innovation at all levels. Right here in Georgia, Lyn just brought up data centers. We reduced our building's energy usage by thirty three percent last year and our rates. Yeah, we need a cross the board to dedicate ourselves to research and stop living in an idiocracy.

Hi there, Thanks for having me. I think the energy future has to go back to a renewed emphasis on education. We are no longer the education and research leaders of the world. Just the other day, China is launching a solar array in space. Other countries are looking at micro nuclear. We need to make sure that we're thinking on one hundred and twenty five year timeline as well as the next quarter timeline, and all of that comes back to education. We have to make sure that people at are funding research and not lobbying against innovation at all levels. Right here in Georgia, Lyn just brought up data centers. We reduced our building's energy usage by thirty three percent last year and our rates. Yeah, we need a cross the board to dedicate ourselves to research and stop living in an idiocracy.

Yeah, thank you so much for that, Bill Ritter. What do you think about that in education as part of this, well.

Yeah, thank you so much for that, Bill Ritter. What do you think about that in education as part of this, well.

I think if you by education mean research, I absolutely agree. If you think about nineteen seventy three and what it took to refrigerate you know, food, we've reduced the energy usage ninety some percent with today's appliances, and we did that because of research. We did that because people studied that, and that was a big, big gain. We'd be such a much bigger energy user if we had not done that. So we need to continue to do that. But at the same time, I think we have to We can't get in a box where say we're going to solve this only through education, where we need to have I think conversations in the middle.

I think if you by education mean research, I absolutely agree. If you think about nineteen seventy three and what it took to refrigerate you know, food, we've reduced the energy usage ninety some percent with today's appliances, and we did that because of research. We did that because people studied that, and that was a big, big gain. We'd be such a much bigger energy user if we had not done that. So we need to continue to do that. But at the same time, I think we have to We can't get in a box where say we're going to solve this only through education, where we need to have I think conversations in the middle.

And that's not just a plug to you.

And that's not just a plug to you.

I really believe we need to have cross party conversations about the ways we should power the future that get us to a place of net zero by twenty forty or twenty fifty.

I really believe we need to have cross party conversations about the ways we should power the future that get us to a place of net zero by twenty forty or twenty fifty.

That's what's important.

That's what's important.

And then to listen to the business case for that and the national security case for that, all of those things are important.

And then to listen to the business case for that and the national security case for that, all of those things are important.

Well.

Well.

And you know that gets me to something that we were thinking about as we were getting ready for this show, which is it is kind of interesting that in this country on this issue, in Washington anyway, Republicans tend to be for oil and gas and Democrats tend to be for renewables in Congress, but when you actually hear from people around the country, it doesn't break down like that. You could have somebody who we heard just there from somebody in Baton Rouge. I don't know what his politics are, but he believes that oil is a big part of our future. I mean, it doesn't break down along those party lines. It's interesting that's become so part is of an issue. Blyn Granger.

And you know that gets me to something that we were thinking about as we were getting ready for this show, which is it is kind of interesting that in this country on this issue, in Washington anyway, Republicans tend to be for oil and gas and Democrats tend to be for renewables in Congress, but when you actually hear from people around the country, it doesn't break down like that. You could have somebody who we heard just there from somebody in Baton Rouge. I don't know what his politics are, but he believes that oil is a big part of our future. I mean, it doesn't break down along those party lines. It's interesting that's become so part is of an issue. Blyn Granger.

Absolutely, I agree, and we think it should not be a part ofant issue because at the end of the day, all of us, we all use energy. It powers our lives, it powers our world. We all use it. So we just have to come together and we need to problem solve together to address the risks of the climate change. And I think our industry definitely has stepped up and is problem solving. I mean in Colorado alone, we've quadruped all production while simultaneously reducing our emissions by fifty percent. That's problem solving. That is, you know, coming to the table and understanding an issue and saying rolling up the sleeves and saying what can we do to be part of the solution here.

Absolutely, I agree, and we think it should not be a part ofant issue because at the end of the day, all of us, we all use energy. It powers our lives, it powers our world. We all use it. So we just have to come together and we need to problem solve together to address the risks of the climate change. And I think our industry definitely has stepped up and is problem solving. I mean in Colorado alone, we've quadruped all production while simultaneously reducing our emissions by fifty percent. That's problem solving. That is, you know, coming to the table and understanding an issue and saying rolling up the sleeves and saying what can we do to be part of the solution here.

And I would just say I had the advantage of having work done this as governor in two thousand and seven, where it was bipartisan, we had by partisan sponsorship for a variety of really important clean energy bills. Over time, that by partisan spirit has waned somewhat of the states, but there is still some of that at the state. It's almost absent at the federal level. And I think that's the biggest problem.

And I would just say I had the advantage of having work done this as governor in two thousand and seven, where it was bipartisan, we had by partisan sponsorship for a variety of really important clean energy bills. Over time, that by partisan spirit has waned somewhat of the states, but there is still some of that at the state. It's almost absent at the federal level. And I think that's the biggest problem.

Sneak In a call here from Mansfield, Connecticut, Diane is with us, Diane, what do you think that country's energy future should be.

Sneak In a call here from Mansfield, Connecticut, Diane is with us, Diane, what do you think that country's energy future should be.

I'm concerned that wind and solar are not constant, and I believe in drill, baby, drill of geo thermal forty degree under the ground and deep in water is constant when it's zero degrees outside or eighty degrees outside. You're starting with that forty degree constant temperature. Pain and I put a system, a geothermal system in the late nineteen eighties, and.

I'm concerned that wind and solar are not constant, and I believe in drill, baby, drill of geo thermal forty degree under the ground and deep in water is constant when it's zero degrees outside or eighty degrees outside. You're starting with that forty degree constant temperature. Pain and I put a system, a geothermal system in the late nineteen eighties, and.

It's working well for you.

It's working well for you.

It is thank you for that.

It is thank you for that.

She brings up the fact that wind and solar, Governor Ritter are not always there for you, and in fact that that is an issue that you know, especially for these data centers, you can't run them at night if there's no sun.

She brings up the fact that wind and solar, Governor Ritter are not always there for you, and in fact that that is an issue that you know, especially for these data centers, you can't run them at night if there's no sun.

That's a fair point that there are intermittent sources we call it, and storage can really do a lot to firm the power. That's the word that we use to say when it's less intermittent, it's firmed. But I don't disagree to all that geothermal is a firm source of power. Into the extent there's a resource there that you can find and get to, you know, turbines in an.

That's a fair point that there are intermittent sources we call it, and storage can really do a lot to firm the power. That's the word that we use to say when it's less intermittent, it's firmed. But I don't disagree to all that geothermal is a firm source of power. Into the extent there's a resource there that you can find and get to, you know, turbines in an.

Affordable way, that it really can be part of a lution.

Affordable way, that it really can be part of a lution.

But again it's so important to understand it's not the only solution, because there are places where there is no geothermal, there are places where there's not enough wind or not enough good sunlight. And so to think about sort of this as how do you do this and get to zero net zero by twenty four twenty fifty, you really have to have sort of a broad mindset and not just as an article of faith eliminate some things because that doesn't rain all the or the sun doesn't shine all the time, but the wind doesn't pull all the time, right, Well, Tolliver.

But again it's so important to understand it's not the only solution, because there are places where there is no geothermal, there are places where there's not enough wind or not enough good sunlight. And so to think about sort of this as how do you do this and get to zero net zero by twenty four twenty fifty, you really have to have sort of a broad mindset and not just as an article of faith eliminate some things because that doesn't rain all the or the sun doesn't shine all the time, but the wind doesn't pull all the time, right, Well, Tolliver.

Another energy source that could play into the future of American energy, and we've heard a lot about it this hour, is nuclear power. But as we said, many Americans are kind of uneasy about it.

Another energy source that could play into the future of American energy, and we've heard a lot about it this hour, is nuclear power. But as we said, many Americans are kind of uneasy about it.

If it's good enough for Homer Simpson it's good enough for me, okay.

If it's good enough for Homer Simpson it's good enough for me, okay.

So yeah.

So yeah.

The three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania back in nineteen seventy nine actually didn't do much to help that perception. Here's Walter Kronkite reporting on the incident on CBS.

The three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania back in nineteen seventy nine actually didn't do much to help that perception. Here's Walter Kronkite reporting on the incident on CBS.

Probably the worst nuclear reactor accident to date. There was no apparent serious can domination of workers, but a nuclear safety group said that radiation inside the plant is at eight times the deadly level, so strong that after passing through a three foot thick concrete wall, it can be measured a mile away.

Probably the worst nuclear reactor accident to date. There was no apparent serious can domination of workers, but a nuclear safety group said that radiation inside the plant is at eight times the deadly level, so strong that after passing through a three foot thick concrete wall, it can be measured a mile away.

And as we said, there's now a plan to restore through Mile Island to power Microsoft's data centers so that you can make all those you know, AI videos and pictures that you want.

And as we said, there's now a plan to restore through Mile Island to power Microsoft's data centers so that you can make all those you know, AI videos and pictures that you want.

Tolliver and I do it too much. I'm in trouble. They're going to be right.

Tolliver and I do it too much. I'm in trouble. They're going to be right.

Back with more of the middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour, we're broadcasting from Denver and asking you what do you want the future of American energy to look like? You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at listen to the middle dot com. My guests are former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter and Colorado Oil and Gas Association President Lynd Granger. And before we go back to the phones, Lynd Granger, how has President Trump's embrace of oil drilling chain aims the landscape for organizations like yours, which on your own website talk about things like reducing emissions and climate change. Is it different to have a president come in with this very direct proposal to drill, baby drill.

Back with more of the middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour, we're broadcasting from Denver and asking you what do you want the future of American energy to look like? You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at listen to the middle dot com. My guests are former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter and Colorado Oil and Gas Association President Lynd Granger. And before we go back to the phones, Lynd Granger, how has President Trump's embrace of oil drilling chain aims the landscape for organizations like yours, which on your own website talk about things like reducing emissions and climate change. Is it different to have a president come in with this very direct proposal to drill, baby drill.

So really, the landscape in Colorado hasn't changed very much at all. You know, we have been a leader. We've gone through forty rulemakings over the last five years due to some legislation that has really changed the landscape of how we're regulated here in the state. So really, at the state and local level here, it's really not changed much at all.

So really, the landscape in Colorado hasn't changed very much at all. You know, we have been a leader. We've gone through forty rulemakings over the last five years due to some legislation that has really changed the landscape of how we're regulated here in the state. So really, at the state and local level here, it's really not changed much at all.

And what do you think about nationally right now?

And what do you think about nationally right now?

So I think it's early and we'll see what happens. I think things will change. I mentioned earlier, there's a couple, you know, scenarios where we see federal lands being opened up or off sale leases being opened up as well, And so I think there's definitely an opportunity to see increased production here in the United States, but I don't again, don't think that will have an impact here in Colorado.

So I think it's early and we'll see what happens. I think things will change. I mentioned earlier, there's a couple, you know, scenarios where we see federal lands being opened up or off sale leases being opened up as well, And so I think there's definitely an opportunity to see increased production here in the United States, but I don't again, don't think that will have an impact here in Colorado.

Michael is calling from Meeker COLLEGEO. Hi, Michael, Welcome to the middle What do you think the future of American energy should be?

Michael is calling from Meeker COLLEGEO. Hi, Michael, Welcome to the middle What do you think the future of American energy should be?

Well, I think we should stop being so hideously wasteful and inefficient with it. To start with, we have tens of thousands of private homes, small business buildings, and other buildings that are uninsulated and leaky, and it just sucks up energy and goes to waste. So we need to start there. And then there's there's talk about nuclear and everybody thinks of the old reactors we've been building since the fifties, which are basically based on a reactor design developed for the United States Navies nuclear ships. They're pressurized water reactors. So there's better designs out there. The Atomic Energy Commission was working on in the fifties at oak Ridge, and him and Rickover, the father of the Nuclear Navy, and his allies had him shut it down. But it wasn't a pressurized water reactor, and it can't explode, and it can't melt down because it's already liquid and it has the potential to consume ninety percent of the fissile fuels, unlike reactors today which only consume ten to fifteen, maybe twenty percent of the energy stored in the fuel rods. So we need to just make big changes. You could be more efficient with your buildings.

Well, I think we should stop being so hideously wasteful and inefficient with it. To start with, we have tens of thousands of private homes, small business buildings, and other buildings that are uninsulated and leaky, and it just sucks up energy and goes to waste. So we need to start there. And then there's there's talk about nuclear and everybody thinks of the old reactors we've been building since the fifties, which are basically based on a reactor design developed for the United States Navies nuclear ships. They're pressurized water reactors. So there's better designs out there. The Atomic Energy Commission was working on in the fifties at oak Ridge, and him and Rickover, the father of the Nuclear Navy, and his allies had him shut it down. But it wasn't a pressurized water reactor, and it can't explode, and it can't melt down because it's already liquid and it has the potential to consume ninety percent of the fissile fuels, unlike reactors today which only consume ten to fifteen, maybe twenty percent of the energy stored in the fuel rods. So we need to just make big changes. You could be more efficient with your buildings.

Agree be less wasteful, is your point there, Governor Ritter? What about that? And I should mention that we also lose a lot of energy in our transmission lines these days, they're not as good as they could.

Agree be less wasteful, is your point there, Governor Ritter? What about that? And I should mention that we also lose a lot of energy in our transmission lines these days, they're not as good as they could.

I just want to say, I campaign in Colorado. I used to run into people like your color all the time, wickedly smart people to just swat up. In Colorado, they really challenged you in town hall meetings. But thanks for your comments. So the built environment, we could do so much just by addressing inefficiencies in the built environment. He's exactly right. And like you said, transmission lines, there's a lot Remember our color who was talking about winds or being intermittent, stverage not being able to firm it up completely. We could improve our transmission lines in this country and move power around so that we could do a far better job using renewables in places where you know you don't necessarily have the wind blowing, but the transmission, because it's sufficient, can get it there.

I just want to say, I campaign in Colorado. I used to run into people like your color all the time, wickedly smart people to just swat up. In Colorado, they really challenged you in town hall meetings. But thanks for your comments. So the built environment, we could do so much just by addressing inefficiencies in the built environment. He's exactly right. And like you said, transmission lines, there's a lot Remember our color who was talking about winds or being intermittent, stverage not being able to firm it up completely. We could improve our transmission lines in this country and move power around so that we could do a far better job using renewables in places where you know you don't necessarily have the wind blowing, but the transmission, because it's sufficient, can get it there.

Those are the kinds of things.

Those are the kinds of things.

That really advanced energy policy would take into consideration to understand the wisdom of doing that.

That really advanced energy policy would take into consideration to understand the wisdom of doing that.

Nate is in Milwaukee. Nate, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.

Nate is in Milwaukee. Nate, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.

Hi, thank you very much for having my call. I was just going to mention a couple of things. First, I've got a neighbor in my neighborhood who put I definitely think renewables should be part of our future. My neighbor puts solar panels on his roof and his energy bill dropped by over half sometimes two thirds, depending on the months, and he's just sorry he didn't put more up there. Also, if we're going to have a discussion about what energy we have, we really have to address and then not follow the dishonesty that was put out by the oil company and some of their political oil companies and political allies about renewable energy. An example is down the Texas governor when they had that cold snap a few years ago, tried to blame windmills when actually it was natural gas selves and boilers that were freezing and the windmills worked better. And I mean here in Wisconsin we get colder than Texas did and our windmills worked fine.

Hi, thank you very much for having my call. I was just going to mention a couple of things. First, I've got a neighbor in my neighborhood who put I definitely think renewables should be part of our future. My neighbor puts solar panels on his roof and his energy bill dropped by over half sometimes two thirds, depending on the months, and he's just sorry he didn't put more up there. Also, if we're going to have a discussion about what energy we have, we really have to address and then not follow the dishonesty that was put out by the oil company and some of their political oil companies and political allies about renewable energy. An example is down the Texas governor when they had that cold snap a few years ago, tried to blame windmills when actually it was natural gas selves and boilers that were freezing and the windmills worked better. And I mean here in Wisconsin we get colder than Texas did and our windmills worked fine.

So a couple of issues there. But let me take that to Lynn Granger just I'm sure that there are many listeners who feel the same way that they feel like the oil and gas companies have a stake and they don't want people to move into renewables. How would you respond to a question like that?

So a couple of issues there. But let me take that to Lynn Granger just I'm sure that there are many listeners who feel the same way that they feel like the oil and gas companies have a stake and they don't want people to move into renewables. How would you respond to a question like that?

Again, I would say that a lot of our member companies are strong investors in the renewable space. I think our industry is full of a lot of people that are focused on technology, focused on innovation and looking again at all of all of the solutions to power our energy future.

Again, I would say that a lot of our member companies are strong investors in the renewable space. I think our industry is full of a lot of people that are focused on technology, focused on innovation and looking again at all of all of the solutions to power our energy future.

Let's go to another call and Eric is in Oakland Township, Michigan.

Let's go to another call and Eric is in Oakland Township, Michigan.

Hi.

Hi.

Eric, welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Eric, welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Hi.

Hi.

I just wanted to ask a quick question for y'all. I read a few papers recently talking about how we've improved in carbon capture technology and these you know, new carbon capture methods we can employ on fossil fuel plants, and I was just wondering if you think that it's even worth investing in making fossil fuels, you know, cleaner and safer, or if we should just put that time, money and manpower into renewables research and try and get renewables you know, across the board, you know, into full swing faster.

I just wanted to ask a quick question for y'all. I read a few papers recently talking about how we've improved in carbon capture technology and these you know, new carbon capture methods we can employ on fossil fuel plants, and I was just wondering if you think that it's even worth investing in making fossil fuels, you know, cleaner and safer, or if we should just put that time, money and manpower into renewables research and try and get renewables you know, across the board, you know, into full swing faster.

Great question. I want to hear from both of you on this. Lynn, let's start with you.

Great question. I want to hear from both of you on this. Lynn, let's start with you.

So absolutely it's worth the investment. I mean, we are trying to be cleaner, safer, better all of the time. And as we started the show off, we're still reliable eighty percent for our energy use on natural gas, oil and coal around the world, and so I think that will continue to be the case for the next several decades at least. So I think we absolutely are investing every day in reducing our emissions focused on public health and public safety, and we will absolutely continue to invest in that.

So absolutely it's worth the investment. I mean, we are trying to be cleaner, safer, better all of the time. And as we started the show off, we're still reliable eighty percent for our energy use on natural gas, oil and coal around the world, and so I think that will continue to be the case for the next several decades at least. So I think we absolutely are investing every day in reducing our emissions focused on public health and public safety, and we will absolutely continue to invest in that.

What do you think, Governor about carbon capture technology and whether it will, whether it will it's worth, as he says, going that route instead of just moving into more renewable fuels.

What do you think, Governor about carbon capture technology and whether it will, whether it will it's worth, as he says, going that route instead of just moving into more renewable fuels.

So I agree with Lynn with a caveat, and the caveat's this, we've built a lot of polluting facilities next to marginalized.

So I agree with Lynn with a caveat, and the caveat's this, we've built a lot of polluting facilities next to marginalized.

Communities in this country.

Communities in this country.

There's a term called environmental justice, and it could be something that people just react to in a negative way. But we if we keep in place polluting facilities and capture that carbon, we have to ensure that we're also making sure that marginalized communities, poor communities who have borne the brunt of some of the pollution from those facilities are really taking care of. It's why I like the Inflation Reduction Act. It's why I thought the Justice forty from the President Biden was the right thing to do, because it looked at things like carbon capture sequestrations said let's still let's increase the tax credit for that the Inflation Reduction Act, but by the way, we're going to pay attention to the things we've done in marginalized communities that negatively impacted them. So yes, with that caveat.

There's a term called environmental justice, and it could be something that people just react to in a negative way. But we if we keep in place polluting facilities and capture that carbon, we have to ensure that we're also making sure that marginalized communities, poor communities who have borne the brunt of some of the pollution from those facilities are really taking care of. It's why I like the Inflation Reduction Act. It's why I thought the Justice forty from the President Biden was the right thing to do, because it looked at things like carbon capture sequestrations said let's still let's increase the tax credit for that the Inflation Reduction Act, but by the way, we're going to pay attention to the things we've done in marginalized communities that negatively impacted them. So yes, with that caveat.

Are you worried that President Trump right now will just stop enforcing the Inflation Reduction Act, not even go through Congress, but just not have it go into effect in the way that he seems to be doing with some other issues.