In our first "How To..." guide of 2025, Dr Laurie is asking how can we stop striving for perfection and make peace with the idea that it's ok to lead messy and "half-assed" lives. 

Oliver Burkeman (author of Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time For What Counts) explains how we can embrace imperfection and find liberation and joy in just doing our best. 

In our first "How To..." guide of 2025, Dr Laurie is asking how can we stop striving for perfection and make peace with the idea that it's ok to lead messy and "half-assed" lives.&nbsp;
Oliver Burkeman (author of&nbsp;<a href="https://www.oliverburkeman.com/">Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time For What Counts</a>) explains how we can embrace imperfection and find liberation and joy in just doing our best.&nbsp;

The Happiness Lab is serving up scientifically-backed takes this summer that are so hot, even your SPF 50 won’t protect you.

With the help of behavioral scientists, historians, and cultural critics, Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos challenges some of our biggest assumptions about what it takes to live a good life. Dr. Laurie explores topics like why we should forget about TMI and lean into oversharing, how dumping small talk makes for better conversations, why the kids these days are actually doing just fine, and how men can establish strong bromances. Each episode unpacks a bold, counterintuitive claim — using research, data, and expert insight to question the conventional wisdom around happiness and wellbeing.

The Happiness Lab is serving up scientifically-backed takes this summer that are so hot, even your SPF 50 won&rsquo;t protect you.
With the help of behavioral scientists, historians, and cultural critics, Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos challenges some of our biggest assumptions about what it takes to live a good life. Dr. Laurie explores topics like why we should forget about TMI and lean into oversharing, how dumping small talk makes for better conversations, why the kids these days are actually doing just fine, and how men can establish strong bromances. Each episode unpacks a bold, counterintuitive claim &mdash;&nbsp;using research, data, and expert insight to question the conventional wisdom around happiness and wellbeing.

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

How To Embrace Imperfection

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/823779a5-ded4-465d-8501-b24a0113262d/transcript

What would it take to make you happier? A raise? A promotion? Getting into your dream school? Winning the lottery? It turns out that we’re surprisingly bad at predicting how these events will actually make us feel. When they do make us happier, research shows that the highs won’t last as long as we expect. The good news is that the lows won't last as long as we expect either. We're just as bad at predicting how life's setbacks will affect us.

Dr. Laurie speaks with Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert about why our minds exaggerate the emotional impact of life’s biggest events. She also hears from psychotherapist Clay Cockrell about why extreme wealth often comes with misery, and from writer Rafaella Gunz and Army veteran J.R. Martinez about their journeys toward happiness and meaning after experiences they once thought would ruin their lives.

Experts Mentioned:
Daniel Gilbert, Professor of Psychology at Harvard University
Clay Cockrell, Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Psychotherapist 
Daniel Kahneman, Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, and Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University
Angus Deaton, Professor of International Affairs, Emeritus, and Professor of Economics and International Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University
Matthew Killingsworth, Senior Fellow at The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania
Rafaella Gunz, writer and social worker 
J.R. Martinez, Army veteran, actor, author, and podcast host

Resources Mentioned:
“Billie Bob’s (Mis) Fortune,” by Steve McViker (Houston Press, 2000)
“The How of Happiness: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want,” by Sonja Lyubomirsky (2007)
“High income improves evaluation of life but not emotional well-being,” by Daniel Kahneman and Angus Deaton (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010)
“Experienced well-being rises with income, even above $75,000 per year,” by Matthew Killingsworth (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)
“Income and emotional well-being: a conflict resolved,” by Matthew Killingsworth, Daniel Kahneman, and Barbara Mellers (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)
Stumbling on Happiness, by Daniel Gilbert (2006)
“Immune neglect: a source of durability bias in affective forecasting,” by Daniel Gilbert, Elizabeth Pinel, Timothy Wilson, Stephen Blumberg, and Thalia Wheatley (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1998)
“Affective forecasting: Why can't people predict their emotions?,” by Peter Ayton, Alice Pott, and Najat Elwakili (Thinking & Reasoning, 2007)
“Anticipated versus actual reaction to HIV test results,” by Elaine Sieff, Robyn Dawes, and George Lowenstein (The American Journal of Psychology, 1999)
Well-Being: Foundations of Hedonic Psychology, by Daniel Kahneman, Edward Diener, and Norbert Schwartz (1999)
“Getting Herpes Was a Gift,” by Rafaella Gunz (Ravishly, 2016)
“The impact bias is alive and well,” by Timothy Wilson and Daniel Gilbert (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2013)
Full of Heart: My Story of Survival, Strength, and Spirit, by J.R. Martinez with Alexandra Rockey Fleming (2012)

Related Episodes:
“Why We Sabotage Our Future Selves” 
“Why the ‘Good Enough’ Relationship Beats the ‘Perfect Partner’”
“Working Your Way to Happiness” 
“Why Nostalgia Ain’t So Rosy”

What would it take to make you happier? A raise? A promotion? Getting into your dream school? Winning the lottery? It turns out that we&rsquo;re surprisingly bad at predicting how these events will actually make us feel. When they do make us happier, research shows that the highs won&rsquo;t last as long as we expect. The good news is that the lows won't last as long as we expect either. We're just as bad at predicting how life's setbacks will affect us.
Dr. Laurie speaks with Harvard psychologist <a href="https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/daniel-gilbert" data-airgap-id="12">Daniel Gilbert</a> about why our minds exaggerate the emotional impact of life&rsquo;s biggest events. She also hears from psychotherapist <a href="https://www.walkandtalk.com/bio/" data-airgap-id="13">Clay Cockrell</a> about why extreme wealth often comes with misery, and from writer <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaellagunz/" data-airgap-id="14">Rafaella Gunz</a> and Army veteran <a href="https://jrmartinez.com/about" data-airgap-id="15">J.R. Martinez</a> about their journeys toward happiness and meaning after experiences they once thought would ruin their lives.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/daniel-gilbert" data-airgap-id="16">Daniel Gilbert</a>, Professor of Psychology at Harvard University</li>
<li><a href="https://www.walkandtalk.com/bio/" data-airgap-id="17">Clay Cockrell</a>, Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Psychotherapist&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/" data-airgap-id="18">Daniel Kahneman</a>, Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, and Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University</li>
<li><a href="https://deaton.scholar.princeton.edu/bio" data-airgap-id="19">Angus Deaton</a>, Professor of International Affairs, Emeritus, and Professor of Economics and International Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University</li>
<li><a href="https://www.mattkillingsworth.com/" data-airgap-id="20">Matthew Killingsworth</a>, Senior Fellow at The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania</li>
<li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaellagunz/" data-airgap-id="21">Rafaella Gunz</a>, writer and social worker&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://jrmartinez.com/about" data-airgap-id="22">J.R. Martinez</a>, Army veteran, actor, author, and podcast host</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.houstonpress.com/news/billie-bobs-mis-fortune-6565369/" data-airgap-id="23">Billie Bob&rsquo;s (Mis) Fortune</a>,&rdquo; by Steve McViker (Houston Press, 2000)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143114956?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="24">The How of Happiness: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want</a>,&rdquo; by Sonja Lyubomirsky (2007)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20823223/" data-airgap-id="25">High income improves evaluation of life but not emotional well-being</a>,&rdquo; by Daniel Kahneman and Angus Deaton (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118" data-airgap-id="26">Experienced well-being rises with income, even above $75,000 per year</a>,&rdquo; by Matthew Killingsworth (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120" data-airgap-id="27">Income and emotional well-being: a conflict resolved</a>,&rdquo; by Matthew Killingsworth, Daniel Kahneman, and Barbara Mellers (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1400077427?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="28">Stumbling on Happiness</a>, by Daniel Gilbert (2006)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1998-12057-003?doi=1" data-airgap-id="29">Immune neglect: a source of durability bias in affective forecasting</a>,&rdquo; by Daniel Gilbert, Elizabeth Pinel, Timothy Wilson, Stephen Blumberg, and Thalia Wheatley (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1998)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13546780600872726" data-airgap-id="30">Affective forecasting: Why can't people predict their emotions?</a>,&rdquo; by Peter Ayton, Alice Pott, and Najat Elwakili (Thinking &amp; Reasoning, 2007)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/AnticipatedvsReactionHIV.pdf" data-airgap-id="31">Anticipated versus actual reaction to HIV test results</a>,&rdquo; by Elaine Sieff, Robyn Dawes, and George Lowenstein (The American Journal of Psychology, 1999)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0871544237?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="32">Well-Being: Foundations of Hedonic Psychology</a>, by Daniel Kahneman, Edward Diener, and Norbert Schwartz (1999)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.ravishly.com/2016/12/28/getting-herpes-was-gift" data-airgap-id="33">Getting Herpes Was a Gift</a>,&rdquo; by Rafaella Gunz (Ravishly, 2016)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-37998-002" data-airgap-id="34">The impact bias is alive and well</a>,&rdquo; by Timothy Wilson and Daniel Gilbert (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2013)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401324746?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="35">Full of Heart: My Story of Survival, Strength, and Spirit</a>, by J.R. Martinez with Alexandra Rockey Fleming (2012)</li>
</ul>
Related Episodes:
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/does-the-you-of-today-hate-the-you-of-tomorrow" data-airgap-id="36">Why We Sabotage Our Future Selves</a>&rdquo;&nbsp;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/why-the-good-enough-relationship-beats-the-perfect-partner" data-airgap-id="37">Why the &lsquo;Good Enough&rsquo; Relationship Beats the &lsquo;Perfect Partner&rsquo;</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/working-your-way-to-happiness" data-airgap-id="38">Working Your Way to Happiness</a>&rdquo;&nbsp;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/why-nostalgia-aint-so-rosy" data-airgap-id="39">Why Nostalgia Ain&rsquo;t So Rosy</a>&rdquo;</li>
</ul>

Winning the Lottery Could Ruin Your Life

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/512a5245-4cca-4e5c-9eaa-b49101058fcf/transcript

Men today are spending less time with friends, and many have no close friendships at all. Research shows that this lack of social connection can lead to serious long-term consequences for men's mental and physical health. The answer isn’t just more social interaction. Guys need something deeper: bromance.

Dr. Laurie speaks with actor, director, and author Andrew McCarthy about his book, Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America, and what he learned after reconnecting with the men who shaped his life. She also talks with Harvard behavioral scientist Todd Rogers about why sports fandom can be a surprisingly powerful way for men to build deeper relationships.

Experts Mentioned:
Andrew McCarthy, actor, director, and author
Todd Rogers, Professor of Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School
Julianne Holt-Lunstad, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience and Director of the Social Connection & Health Lab at Brigham Young University
Michael Norton, Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School
Sara Algoe, Professor of Psychology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Resources Mentioned: 
Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America, by Andrew McCarthy (2026)
The Fandom and Social Connection Initiative
Harvard Study of Adult Development
The Ritual Effect: The Transformative Power of Our Everyday Actions, by Michael Norton (2024)
“Positive Interpersonal Processes,” by Sara Algoe (Current Directions in Psychological Science, 2019)

Men today are spending less time with friends, and many have no close friendships at all. Research shows that this lack of social connection can lead to serious long-term consequences for men's mental and physical health. The answer isn&rsquo;t just more social interaction. Guys need something deeper: bromance.
Dr. Laurie speaks with actor, director, and author <a href="https://andrewmccarthy.com/" data-airgap-id="15">Andrew McCarthy</a> about his book, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1538768941?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="16">Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America</a>, and what he learned after reconnecting with the men who shaped his life. She also talks with Harvard behavioral scientist <a href="https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/todd-rogers" data-airgap-id="17">Todd Rogers</a> about why sports fandom can be a surprisingly powerful way for men to build deeper relationships.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://andrewmccarthy.com/" data-airgap-id="18">Andrew McCarthy</a>, actor, director, and author</li>
<li><a href="https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/todd-rogers" data-airgap-id="19">Todd Rogers</a>, Professor of Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School</li>
<li><a href="https://www.julianneholtlunstad.com/" data-airgap-id="20">Julianne Holt-Lunstad</a>, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience and Director of the Social Connection &amp; Health Lab at Brigham Young University</li>
<li><a href="https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=326229" data-airgap-id="21">Michael Norton</a>, Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School</li>
<li><a href="https://www.saraalgoe.com/" data-airgap-id="22">Sara Algoe</a>, Professor of Psychology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:&nbsp;
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1538768941?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="23">Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America</a>, by Andrew McCarthy (2026)</li>
<li><a href="https://shorensteincenter.org/research-initiative/fandom-social-connection/" data-airgap-id="24">The Fandom and Social Connection Initiative</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.adultdevelopmentstudy.org/" data-airgap-id="25">Harvard Study of Adult Development</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0241465435?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="26">The Ritual Effect: The Transformative Power of Our Everyday Actions</a>, by Michael Norton (2024)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0963721419827272" data-airgap-id="27">Positive Interpersonal Processes</a>,&rdquo; by Sara Algoe (Current Directions in Psychological Science, 2019)</li>
</ul>

Men Don’t Just Need Friends. They Need Bromance.

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/8c7dfce2-f535-4cc6-a0b8-b48a013b4645/transcript

Most of us default to small talk. It's polite, familiar, and feels like the safest way to start a conversation. But it may also be one of the biggest barriers to genuine connection.

Dr. Laurie speaks with author and metal-health advocate Claire Eastham about her month-long experiment replacing small talk with deeper conversations while living with social anxiety.  She also chats with psychologist Nicholas Epley about why going deeper often scares us, what research reveals about opening up, and what happens when you tell a stranger about the last time you cried.

Experts Mentioned:
Claire Eastham, author, blogger, and mental-health advocate
Nicholas Epley, Professor of Behavioral Science and Faculty Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business
Arthur Aron, Professor of Psychology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook 
Elaine Aron, psychologist and author 

Resources Mentioned:
We're All Mad Here: The No-Nonsense Guide to Living with Social Anxiety, by Claire Eastham (2016)
A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection, by Nicholas Epley (2026)
“The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings,” by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee Bator (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 1997)

Related Episodes: 
“The Surprising Case for Oversharing”
“Make Vulnerability Your Superpower (with NBA Star Kevin Love)”
“Harnessing People Around us to Feel Happier (Live with Ethan Kross)”

Most of us default to small talk. It's polite, familiar, and feels like the safest way to start a conversation. But it may also be one of the biggest barriers to genuine connection.
Dr. Laurie speaks with author and metal-health advocate <a href="https://x.com/ClaireyLove" data-airgap-id="10">Claire Eastham</a> about her month-long experiment replacing small talk with deeper conversations while living with social anxiety.&nbsp; She also chats with psychologist <a href="https://www.nicholasepley.com/" data-airgap-id="11">Nicholas Epley</a> about why going deeper often scares us, what research reveals about opening up, and what happens when you tell a stranger about the last time you cried.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://x.com/ClaireyLove" data-airgap-id="12">Claire Eastham</a>, author, blogger, and mental-health advocate</li>
<li><a href="https://www.nicholasepley.com/" data-airgap-id="13">Nicholas Epley</a>, Professor of Behavioral Science and Faculty Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business</li>
<li><a href="https://www.psychology.stonybrook.edu/aronlab-/people/art.htm" data-airgap-id="14">Arthur Aron</a>, Professor of Psychology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://hsperson.com/" data-airgap-id="15">Elaine Aron</a>, psychologist and author&nbsp;</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1785920820?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="16">We're All Mad Here: The No-Nonsense Guide to Living with Social Anxiety</a>, by Claire Eastham (2016)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593319540?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="17">A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection</a>, by Nicholas Epley (2026)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167297234003" data-airgap-id="18">The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings</a>,&rdquo; by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee Bator (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 1997)</li>
</ul>
Related Episodes:&nbsp;
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/the-surprising-case-for-oversharing" data-airgap-id="19">The Surprising Case for Oversharing</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/make-vulnerability-your-superpower-with-nba-star-kevin-love" data-airgap-id="20">Make Vulnerability Your Superpower (with NBA Star Kevin Love)</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/harnessing-people-around-us-to-feel-happier-live-with-ethan-kross" data-airgap-id="21">Harnessing People Around us to Feel Happier (Live with Ethan Kross)</a>&rdquo;</li>
</ul>

Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/bd4ebe67-d68d-4134-83ed-b4820123dc55/transcript

How To Embrace Imperfection

In 1 playlist(s)

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

Social links

Follow podcast

Recent clips