Welcome to what Consumers Want, the podcast that brings the voice of the consumer to the health care conversation. Are you interested in getting outside the health care echo chamber? Using research and insights will explore key health care opportunities through the eyes of the end consumer. We examine trends outside of health care that are driving consumer expectations, as well as what consumers expect from brands now and in the future. This podcast is brought to you by DRG, a market research firm that unlocks the whole mind for deeper insights. I'm your host, Stephanie Douglas, and let's find out what consumers want. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. So we have a really big episode to start. We're going to hear from Eric Steinberger of Atlantic Health in New York. Eric came to health care just a year ago with experience in almost every industry but health care. So in this interview, we talk about his thoughts on health care, branding, communications, and we hear about how his consumer oriented perspective gained through his work at brands like Bed, Bath and Beyond, American Express. And AOL is impacting his work as CMO at Atlantic Health. We're also going to pivot a little bit after that and talk about empathy. We're going to introduce you to MDGs four part series on how empathy can help elevate your brand. We have some really great voice of the customer clips for you in this episode, so be sure to stay tuned until the end. All right, let's jump right in with the conversation with Eric. Yeah, we'd love to start with kind of an introduction. If you could tell us a little bit about your background and then we'll kind of go from there.

Welcome to what Consumers Want, the podcast that brings the voice of the consumer to the health care conversation. Are you interested in getting outside the health care echo chamber? Using research and insights will explore key health care opportunities through the eyes of the end consumer. We examine trends outside of health care that are driving consumer expectations, as well as what consumers expect from brands now and in the future. This podcast is brought to you by DRG, a market research firm that unlocks the whole mind for deeper insights. I'm your host, Stephanie Douglas, and let's find out what consumers want. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. So we have a really big episode to start. We're going to hear from Eric Steinberger of Atlantic Health in New York. Eric came to health care just a year ago with experience in almost every industry but health care. So in this interview, we talk about his thoughts on health care, branding, communications, and we hear about how his consumer oriented perspective gained through his work at brands like Bed, Bath and Beyond, American Express. And AOL is impacting his work as CMO at Atlantic Health. We're also going to pivot a little bit after that and talk about empathy. We're going to introduce you to MDGs four part series on how empathy can help elevate your brand. We have some really great voice of the customer clips for you in this episode, so be sure to stay tuned until the end. All right, let's jump right in with the conversation with Eric. Yeah, we'd love to start with kind of an introduction. If you could tell us a little bit about your background and then we'll kind of go from there.

Sure. So currently the chief marketing officer of Atlantic Health System, large integrated health system in northern New Jersey, been there for a little bit over a year, sort of a very background. Started my career in management consulting after business school really pivoted into marketing at American Express, so worked in the credit card business for a while, then made a brief stint at AOL trying to get people not to cancel their dial up Internet accounts, which was a very humbling experience. Many lessons learned. But early in my career after that, I'd pivoted back to professional services, doing marketing strategy consulting, and then the company we were starting up became more of a full service digital agency. So did that for a number of years and then most recently actually before Atlantic Health spent eight years as chief marketing officer at Bed Bath and Beyond across the Mothership and some of the other brands. You know, it's sort of funny. I had between, you know, in all our professional services basically have worked in almost every single industry except health care. So it was always interested in sort of making the pivot and think after the bed, Bath and Beyond experience, I don't want to call it a midlife crisis, call it whatever you want, but it was sort of just this whole idea of my career always being more money, bigger team, larger company, and sort of my priorities shifted a little bit. And I said wanted to have more purpose and meaning in my work. And so a combination of that and feeling like health care was a place that I would feel that greater purpose and also the fact that the skills I had built up over my entire career I felt could be very helpful in the world of health care, given where they were and what I saw happening in front of them over the next ten years.

Sure. So currently the chief marketing officer of Atlantic Health System, large integrated health system in northern New Jersey, been there for a little bit over a year, sort of a very background. Started my career in management consulting after business school really pivoted into marketing at American Express, so worked in the credit card business for a while, then made a brief stint at AOL trying to get people not to cancel their dial up Internet accounts, which was a very humbling experience. Many lessons learned. But early in my career after that, I'd pivoted back to professional services, doing marketing strategy consulting, and then the company we were starting up became more of a full service digital agency. So did that for a number of years and then most recently actually before Atlantic Health spent eight years as chief marketing officer at Bed Bath and Beyond across the Mothership and some of the other brands. You know, it's sort of funny. I had between, you know, in all our professional services basically have worked in almost every single industry except health care. So it was always interested in sort of making the pivot and think after the bed, Bath and Beyond experience, I don't want to call it a midlife crisis, call it whatever you want, but it was sort of just this whole idea of my career always being more money, bigger team, larger company, and sort of my priorities shifted a little bit. And I said wanted to have more purpose and meaning in my work. And so a combination of that and feeling like health care was a place that I would feel that greater purpose and also the fact that the skills I had built up over my entire career I felt could be very helpful in the world of health care, given where they were and what I saw happening in front of them over the next ten years.

Yeah, definitely. And we're seeing more and more is coming from outside of the health care landscape, which I think is so refreshing and definitely helping with bringing that patient centric point of view that everybody is talking about these days and trying to optimize for. I would love you know, in our previous conversations, we kind of talked about when you came in, you kind of started with some research and the voice of the customer, and I'd love to talk about that, like what kind of questions you had coming into the role and the importance of the voice of the customer. As you know, we're a research firm, so it's always a fun conversation for us, but we'd love to kind of understand that approach that you took when you when you started.

Yeah, definitely. And we're seeing more and more is coming from outside of the health care landscape, which I think is so refreshing and definitely helping with bringing that patient centric point of view that everybody is talking about these days and trying to optimize for. I would love you know, in our previous conversations, we kind of talked about when you came in, you kind of started with some research and the voice of the customer, and I'd love to talk about that, like what kind of questions you had coming into the role and the importance of the voice of the customer. As you know, we're a research firm, so it's always a fun conversation for us, but we'd love to kind of understand that approach that you took when you when you started.

One of the top priorities, which were part of the discussions coming in, was historically with a lot of these health providers, they've grown through acquisition. It's a mix of all these individual hospitals, physician offices, ambulatory facilities, rehab facilities. You know, they all have their own names and their own brand. And so one of my priorities was how do we elevate the Atlantic health brand? How do we get people to understand the collection of all of these health provider systems together and what that means for a consumer? So a lot of my research focused around coming out of the gate that mean some basic foundational stuff like do consumers even understand what a health system is? How do they make choices in this space? What are the key dimensions? What are the key drivers? Historically, there was very minimal real insight work done around that. You know, because again, it's the consumer centricity. In the past, it was just sort of believed that what the hospital administrators, the physicians, sort of all the people and what they heard from the board and other large community stakeholders was like, hey, this is why we love your hospital. So that's what we're going to talk. About out in public. And I just said, Well, let's just confirm that. Let's really actually hear what what the average Joe consumer who isn't thinking about health care in their local hospital every day, 24 over seven, didn't have the same points of view because that's sort of one of the very first things you learn when you get into marketing is that you're not your average consumer. You're an outlier in every single way. So so that was the focus of some of the research initially. Yeah.

One of the top priorities, which were part of the discussions coming in, was historically with a lot of these health providers, they've grown through acquisition. It's a mix of all these individual hospitals, physician offices, ambulatory facilities, rehab facilities. You know, they all have their own names and their own brand. And so one of my priorities was how do we elevate the Atlantic health brand? How do we get people to understand the collection of all of these health provider systems together and what that means for a consumer? So a lot of my research focused around coming out of the gate that mean some basic foundational stuff like do consumers even understand what a health system is? How do they make choices in this space? What are the key dimensions? What are the key drivers? Historically, there was very minimal real insight work done around that. You know, because again, it's the consumer centricity. In the past, it was just sort of believed that what the hospital administrators, the physicians, sort of all the people and what they heard from the board and other large community stakeholders was like, hey, this is why we love your hospital. So that's what we're going to talk. About out in public. And I just said, Well, let's just confirm that. Let's really actually hear what what the average Joe consumer who isn't thinking about health care in their local hospital every day, 24 over seven, didn't have the same points of view because that's sort of one of the very first things you learn when you get into marketing is that you're not your average consumer. You're an outlier in every single way. So so that was the focus of some of the research initially. Yeah.

So. Question Do people know what a health system is?

So. Question Do people know what a health system is?

You know, it's interesting. What we understood is that they are beginning to in a significant way, I think based on what we understood now, more than half the population understands what a health system is. And there was also, I think, a historically I believe many customers viewed that as a negative. You know, it's like I used to have this personal relationship with my doctor and now he's part of this big corporate conglomerate. I'm going to be treated like a number and no longer as an individual. But that wasn't true either. What we found is that well over 60, 70% of the population is aware of what a system is and the vast majority have of either a somewhat or a very favorable view. There are a small percentage that view it as a negative, but the awareness of system and the value of system is continuing to grow over trend. Over time. The sort of detractors are staying pretty small and flat. So we see it as consumers sort of adjusting to that new reality and seeing value in it. Yeah. And so that's sort of what's one of the big open questions when it came to branding a health system was, I mean, even don't just be assumptive. That idea that consumers understand what a system is, but also they see value in it. And then we could talk about how we have the best quality. We could talk about how we have all these locations or whatever it is. But what are the unique benefits of being a system versus an individual urgent care center or a primary care office or just a standalone hospital? And do consumers see value in some of those things that we could provide as a system better than any of those other individual entities? Because that idea of sort of focusing on your your core differentiator should be something that's very difficult to replicate out in the space. And so we wanted to really focus on some of those aspects of system this and see if any of them could really pop as a differentiator for us.

You know, it's interesting. What we understood is that they are beginning to in a significant way, I think based on what we understood now, more than half the population understands what a health system is. And there was also, I think, a historically I believe many customers viewed that as a negative. You know, it's like I used to have this personal relationship with my doctor and now he's part of this big corporate conglomerate. I'm going to be treated like a number and no longer as an individual. But that wasn't true either. What we found is that well over 60, 70% of the population is aware of what a system is and the vast majority have of either a somewhat or a very favorable view. There are a small percentage that view it as a negative, but the awareness of system and the value of system is continuing to grow over trend. Over time. The sort of detractors are staying pretty small and flat. So we see it as consumers sort of adjusting to that new reality and seeing value in it. Yeah. And so that's sort of what's one of the big open questions when it came to branding a health system was, I mean, even don't just be assumptive. That idea that consumers understand what a system is, but also they see value in it. And then we could talk about how we have the best quality. We could talk about how we have all these locations or whatever it is. But what are the unique benefits of being a system versus an individual urgent care center or a primary care office or just a standalone hospital? And do consumers see value in some of those things that we could provide as a system better than any of those other individual entities? Because that idea of sort of focusing on your your core differentiator should be something that's very difficult to replicate out in the space. And so we wanted to really focus on some of those aspects of system this and see if any of them could really pop as a differentiator for us.

Sure. And so one threat to the system idea is the retailers that also can be viewed as systems or as bigger, more money behind putting behind something or more ability to serve. And so kind of what do you see in your research as far as the differentiator between and I'm thinking specifically the retailers, not digital disruptors per se, but like the CVS is in the Walgreens and the target's as far as that ability to deliver care.

Sure. And so one threat to the system idea is the retailers that also can be viewed as systems or as bigger, more money behind putting behind something or more ability to serve. And so kind of what do you see in your research as far as the differentiator between and I'm thinking specifically the retailers, not digital disruptors per se, but like the CVS is in the Walgreens and the target's as far as that ability to deliver care.

Yeah, well, I think they're focused on the right space for them in terms of urgent care and, you know, sort of in the context of and with, you know, the millennial and sort of the younger consumer that views health care more transactional than a lifetime relationship. So I think that's the place where they can accelerate because they're coming in with a better sort of consumer centric mindset, better investment for digital capabilities. Do you think in the context of got a cold or you know, and need some antibiotics or whatever it is, the quality, sort of extensive expertise, technology capabilities of a large health system aren't don't resonate as well in the context of that particular transaction. So the retailers coming in and trying to focus on that space and saying like, hey, you got a cold, you just want to get some antibiotics, you call your primary care physician that's part of your large health system. And if they can get you in for 3 or 4 days, you just walk in, in, in an hour and you'll get what you need. That's going to be a benefit that's going to resonate with some people and think that a lot of the retailers have a very competitive offering in that space. Now, do think that's anything we as a health system can't replicate? No, again, it's not rocket science. We just need to figure out how to get the organization behind it and do it. And I think that will be critically important. Do I feel that the retailers adopting that strategy is sort of a game changer to the threat of the existence of a health system? I think that we certainly it certainly concerns me. It's certainly something I have my eye on. But do I feel that that battle's been lost? Absolutely not. Because what I don't think a retailer is going to be able to replicate is the, you know, the tertiary hospital system and the advanced critical care and sort of all those other pieces that come with it and think if our strategy is to help people understand, we're here to manage your, you know, your health over your lifetime. And we have a breadth of capabilities to do that. And yes, in this one particular context and in this instance, you have the flu or you got a cold or you got something and you just sprained ankle or whatever it is, and you don't need sort of all of that if we're at least at par in terms of the convenience angle of giving you access to those things. But then we throw on you'll keep it all in the same medical record. The doctor will know you will have that history. We'll bake it all in. I think that could be a differentiator enough to keep us in the game. But getting that customer experience to be at par with those retailers coming in is going to be critical.

Yeah, well, I think they're focused on the right space for them in terms of urgent care and, you know, sort of in the context of and with, you know, the millennial and sort of the younger consumer that views health care more transactional than a lifetime relationship. So I think that's the place where they can accelerate because they're coming in with a better sort of consumer centric mindset, better investment for digital capabilities. Do you think in the context of got a cold or you know, and need some antibiotics or whatever it is, the quality, sort of extensive expertise, technology capabilities of a large health system aren't don't resonate as well in the context of that particular transaction. So the retailers coming in and trying to focus on that space and saying like, hey, you got a cold, you just want to get some antibiotics, you call your primary care physician that's part of your large health system. And if they can get you in for 3 or 4 days, you just walk in, in, in an hour and you'll get what you need. That's going to be a benefit that's going to resonate with some people and think that a lot of the retailers have a very competitive offering in that space. Now, do think that's anything we as a health system can't replicate? No, again, it's not rocket science. We just need to figure out how to get the organization behind it and do it. And I think that will be critically important. Do I feel that the retailers adopting that strategy is sort of a game changer to the threat of the existence of a health system? I think that we certainly it certainly concerns me. It's certainly something I have my eye on. But do I feel that that battle's been lost? Absolutely not. Because what I don't think a retailer is going to be able to replicate is the, you know, the tertiary hospital system and the advanced critical care and sort of all those other pieces that come with it and think if our strategy is to help people understand, we're here to manage your, you know, your health over your lifetime. And we have a breadth of capabilities to do that. And yes, in this one particular context and in this instance, you have the flu or you got a cold or you got something and you just sprained ankle or whatever it is, and you don't need sort of all of that if we're at least at par in terms of the convenience angle of giving you access to those things. But then we throw on you'll keep it all in the same medical record. The doctor will know you will have that history. We'll bake it all in. I think that could be a differentiator enough to keep us in the game. But getting that customer experience to be at par with those retailers coming in is going to be critical.

Part of that. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what, you know, I think that's where a lot of the systems are and feel that threat. It's the low acuity care that's really impacted for sure.

Part of that. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what, you know, I think that's where a lot of the systems are and feel that threat. It's the low acuity care that's really impacted for sure.

And at the end of the day, all the you know, it's the journey. We meet with the service line in the hospital leads and it's, you know, someone's in neuro or cardiology or even any of these other specialties. It's unless it's some unexpected thing and you end up in an ed and then you're funneled into that area for for your care. Outside of that, it's not usually like the people who end up in our hospitals. It's their very first interaction with us. It's a they've started with the primary care, you know, ObGyn. They've been referred through to a specialist and then they're having diagnostic or other procedures done in the hospital. And so that's a big part of the funnel. So to me, we have to continue to own the space of that sort of top of the funnel entry into your health care experience of primary care acquisition and other sort of consumer led choice categories, because it's what feeds everything else through the health system. And we need to get consumers to understand the benefits and the value of having that be all in one place.

And at the end of the day, all the you know, it's the journey. We meet with the service line in the hospital leads and it's, you know, someone's in neuro or cardiology or even any of these other specialties. It's unless it's some unexpected thing and you end up in an ed and then you're funneled into that area for for your care. Outside of that, it's not usually like the people who end up in our hospitals. It's their very first interaction with us. It's a they've started with the primary care, you know, ObGyn. They've been referred through to a specialist and then they're having diagnostic or other procedures done in the hospital. And so that's a big part of the funnel. So to me, we have to continue to own the space of that sort of top of the funnel entry into your health care experience of primary care acquisition and other sort of consumer led choice categories, because it's what feeds everything else through the health system. And we need to get consumers to understand the benefits and the value of having that be all in one place.

And speaking of kind of top of funnel, what do you think that health systems can do better with some of the more awareness type tactics out there? It's still so traditional in their media buys and in the way they represent themselves. I'm just curious, coming from your background and experience, what are some of the things that you think, you know, we really could play in this space or we could be doing this or this?

And speaking of kind of top of funnel, what do you think that health systems can do better with some of the more awareness type tactics out there? It's still so traditional in their media buys and in the way they represent themselves. I'm just curious, coming from your background and experience, what are some of the things that you think, you know, we really could play in this space or we could be doing this or this?

Yeah, you know, mean think it's marketing gets a greater focus in health care talent from other industries comes in but also the existing talent just given a lot more freedom to innovate and drive that all those things are both are causing, I think, a couple of dimensions to shift. One is just the movement of the channels from the more sort of traditional difficult to measure channels to more digital focused channels where building of analytics and measurement and an understanding of what view through on display ads and lift and attribution and media mix modeling and sort of all those competencies which never existed in health care before starting to come in, is allowing people to sort of demonstrate the value of those channels vis a vis the more traditional ones. But I think actually more important is the messaging. One of the things that we talk a lot about at Atlantic Health System and it's sort of a contrarian view and would say it's helping all of the employees understand is that I feel like historically, because of the sort of disparate nature of all these aspects of the health system, I feel like not only are we trying to help the consumer understand who like in our case, Atlantic health System is and what the core differentiators of our brand are. But then at the same time, we're also trying to bring cardiology, we're also trying to brand oncology, We're also trying to brand this immediate care location in this hospital, in this particular doctor's office. And part of my mantra within the organization is that what we're actually trying to do is impossible to do, nor should it be. I went to the University of Michigan for business school. You ask a general audience, Does anyone know the name of the business school at Michigan? The vast majority of people wouldn't know. It's the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan, but they certainly heard about University of Michigan. They don't need to know the Raw School of Business unless they're highly interested in an MBA and or in that sort of world. And so what I'm trying to get the organization focused around is this idea that we need to brand Atlantic health System, and then these are the core differentiators of the brand. And then as people identify and raise their hand and say, Hey, I have a health issue coming into Atlantic Health because it's clear you guys are great at all things health related. And I'm interested in learning more about cardiology. Well, now let's start to interact and talk to them and tell them why we're the best place to get their cardiology care versus others. But to think that we're going to be able to allow the average person on the street to understand anything more than the name of our health system and that we're a place that is where they should start their journey because they've heard we're probably provide great quality care and have a wonderful reputation that we're just not going to get them to understand anything more deep than that because they're not engaged in this category in their daily lives.

Yeah, you know, mean think it's marketing gets a greater focus in health care talent from other industries comes in but also the existing talent just given a lot more freedom to innovate and drive that all those things are both are causing, I think, a couple of dimensions to shift. One is just the movement of the channels from the more sort of traditional difficult to measure channels to more digital focused channels where building of analytics and measurement and an understanding of what view through on display ads and lift and attribution and media mix modeling and sort of all those competencies which never existed in health care before starting to come in, is allowing people to sort of demonstrate the value of those channels vis a vis the more traditional ones. But I think actually more important is the messaging. One of the things that we talk a lot about at Atlantic Health System and it's sort of a contrarian view and would say it's helping all of the employees understand is that I feel like historically, because of the sort of disparate nature of all these aspects of the health system, I feel like not only are we trying to help the consumer understand who like in our case, Atlantic health System is and what the core differentiators of our brand are. But then at the same time, we're also trying to bring cardiology, we're also trying to brand oncology, We're also trying to brand this immediate care location in this hospital, in this particular doctor's office. And part of my mantra within the organization is that what we're actually trying to do is impossible to do, nor should it be. I went to the University of Michigan for business school. You ask a general audience, Does anyone know the name of the business school at Michigan? The vast majority of people wouldn't know. It's the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan, but they certainly heard about University of Michigan. They don't need to know the Raw School of Business unless they're highly interested in an MBA and or in that sort of world. And so what I'm trying to get the organization focused around is this idea that we need to brand Atlantic health System, and then these are the core differentiators of the brand. And then as people identify and raise their hand and say, Hey, I have a health issue coming into Atlantic Health because it's clear you guys are great at all things health related. And I'm interested in learning more about cardiology. Well, now let's start to interact and talk to them and tell them why we're the best place to get their cardiology care versus others. But to think that we're going to be able to allow the average person on the street to understand anything more than the name of our health system and that we're a place that is where they should start their journey because they've heard we're probably provide great quality care and have a wonderful reputation that we're just not going to get them to understand anything more deep than that because they're not engaged in this category in their daily lives.

Think about when I was at an agency doing some health care marketing, and this quarter we're doing a campaign about cardiology because we got this brand new cardiologist and he knows how to do X, Y, Z maneuver or procedure. And we're kind of like, okay, so we're going to put an outdoor board about that, you know, and talk to everybody about that. But that's just kind of the traditional way that things worked.

Think about when I was at an agency doing some health care marketing, and this quarter we're doing a campaign about cardiology because we got this brand new cardiologist and he knows how to do X, Y, Z maneuver or procedure. And we're kind of like, okay, so we're going to put an outdoor board about that, you know, and talk to everybody about that. But that's just kind of the traditional way that things worked.

That's inefficient because there's only a small audience that actually is going to resonate with that message. So to me, it's also thinking about consumer marketing and B2B marketing. So part of the layer is, look, when we're just talking to the general public, we got to keep the message simple and be about the health system overall and all of the. Worth of offerings and the reputation and the quality and sort of all those other pieces. But that's not the only audience. Mean we care about the reputation amongst the referring physician community. We care about larger community stakeholders and for employment purposes as well. And so very specific medical conferences, very specific physician audience groups, certainly talking about those things with those audiences and branding, whatever sort of specialty or location amongst the professional community is still very important. But that's to me a different effort than what we're doing in the consumer world. So we've just hired some luminary physician in a particular specialty area. We have some new piece of equipment that's really groundbreaking. We're doing some new clinical trials that are really innovative. All that's great. The point is, is it's not an efficient way to communicate that on a billboard on on 95. But it's not that that's not worthy of being spoken about. It's just to a targeted audience of individuals who are going to remember and have it resonate.

That's inefficient because there's only a small audience that actually is going to resonate with that message. So to me, it's also thinking about consumer marketing and B2B marketing. So part of the layer is, look, when we're just talking to the general public, we got to keep the message simple and be about the health system overall and all of the. Worth of offerings and the reputation and the quality and sort of all those other pieces. But that's not the only audience. Mean we care about the reputation amongst the referring physician community. We care about larger community stakeholders and for employment purposes as well. And so very specific medical conferences, very specific physician audience groups, certainly talking about those things with those audiences and branding, whatever sort of specialty or location amongst the professional community is still very important. But that's to me a different effort than what we're doing in the consumer world. So we've just hired some luminary physician in a particular specialty area. We have some new piece of equipment that's really groundbreaking. We're doing some new clinical trials that are really innovative. All that's great. The point is, is it's not an efficient way to communicate that on a billboard on on 95. But it's not that that's not worthy of being spoken about. It's just to a targeted audience of individuals who are going to remember and have it resonate.

Right place, right time. Exactly. Yeah. And so you're coming in as a new CMO when you're coming in and you have to kind of prove yourself. What have you figured out as like the key KPIs that say, okay, this is working. Whatever changes we've made, they're driving the results that we want. Yeah.

Right place, right time. Exactly. Yeah. And so you're coming in as a new CMO when you're coming in and you have to kind of prove yourself. What have you figured out as like the key KPIs that say, okay, this is working. Whatever changes we've made, they're driving the results that we want. Yeah.

So it's been interesting. I mean, I think in general in marketing, given sort of the evolution of our involvement and some of the foundational sort of technical capabilities to even capture it, I think just bringing even data in general to the organization is how to drive change because they're business people that are operators, they get it. And so that has been a focus for us. It's just even in building the foundational capabilities and getting the measurements, it's various different things that we're looking at from sort of an acquisition standpoint. You know, what's your cost per new appointment, what's your cost per lead and how does that compare against the lifetime value? And is this an efficient channel to be driving new patients into the door? On the engagement side, it's interesting. For my retail financial services, all the other industries engagements been about we want to do more with you and that measurements, we're generating more revenue with you in some cases. In the world of health care, it's almost sort of like that's a bad thing. In some cases it could be a bad thing because we're not managing health well and you need to come in for all sorts of additional procedures or it could be a good thing because you have some chronic disease and you haven't been treating it, but now you're coming in and getting regular treatments to avoid a really expensive procedure down the line. So it's actually not the right metric to think about it from sort of a revenue standpoint. But really for us, we think about it as we're trying to manage an individual's health over their lifetime. And some people it's not the same as sort of Apple or Disney or some of these other brands where I'm trying to build brand love and I want you every day to go to our website. But it's really we want to me sort of the litmus test is if a consumer says like you're always there whenever, whenever I need you. And for some people that may be I want to engage every week and read articles and content and proactively manage my health. And for others that might be when something happens. I want to be able to just call you and reach you and know how to do that quickly and get what I need. So for us, it's really about the interactions with the communications that we're sending out and are people finding them valuable and interacting with them as a big focus for us? And do we feel through metrics in our accountable care organizations or other things that we're doing a better job helping people manage their health over the lifetime and making everyone in the community healthier? And again, there's different ways to measure that. And certainly NPS and all the other sort of traditional metrics coming into the mix as well. But that's really the lens that we're viewing it as in terms of what success means. I don't need to send you an email every day and have you open it every day to have success. I just want you to feel that we've done a better job of keeping you healthy.

So it's been interesting. I mean, I think in general in marketing, given sort of the evolution of our involvement and some of the foundational sort of technical capabilities to even capture it, I think just bringing even data in general to the organization is how to drive change because they're business people that are operators, they get it. And so that has been a focus for us. It's just even in building the foundational capabilities and getting the measurements, it's various different things that we're looking at from sort of an acquisition standpoint. You know, what's your cost per new appointment, what's your cost per lead and how does that compare against the lifetime value? And is this an efficient channel to be driving new patients into the door? On the engagement side, it's interesting. For my retail financial services, all the other industries engagements been about we want to do more with you and that measurements, we're generating more revenue with you in some cases. In the world of health care, it's almost sort of like that's a bad thing. In some cases it could be a bad thing because we're not managing health well and you need to come in for all sorts of additional procedures or it could be a good thing because you have some chronic disease and you haven't been treating it, but now you're coming in and getting regular treatments to avoid a really expensive procedure down the line. So it's actually not the right metric to think about it from sort of a revenue standpoint. But really for us, we think about it as we're trying to manage an individual's health over their lifetime. And some people it's not the same as sort of Apple or Disney or some of these other brands where I'm trying to build brand love and I want you every day to go to our website. But it's really we want to me sort of the litmus test is if a consumer says like you're always there whenever, whenever I need you. And for some people that may be I want to engage every week and read articles and content and proactively manage my health. And for others that might be when something happens. I want to be able to just call you and reach you and know how to do that quickly and get what I need. So for us, it's really about the interactions with the communications that we're sending out and are people finding them valuable and interacting with them as a big focus for us? And do we feel through metrics in our accountable care organizations or other things that we're doing a better job helping people manage their health over the lifetime and making everyone in the community healthier? And again, there's different ways to measure that. And certainly NPS and all the other sort of traditional metrics coming into the mix as well. But that's really the lens that we're viewing it as in terms of what success means. I don't need to send you an email every day and have you open it every day to have success. I just want you to feel that we've done a better job of keeping you healthy.

So have kind of little right turn. Question I was just reading some articles about the wellness integration that brands are really bringing in. In particular, you know, sports are really honing in on wellness and even behavioral health with especially Simone Biles in the Olympics. It seems interesting to me. And I wonder, I think obviously systems can have partnerships and play a role in this wellness. But I wonder, you know, as consumers have all of these wearables and are tracking their health outside of the system, what risk is that for, say, 2040? I don't know to systems about or what does that say? What are the systems need to do and be thinking about? Right now we're worried about primary care and the leaky bucket, but what if it becomes wellness is over here and therefore primary care is with this other disruptor because the whole chain has kind of been disrupted.

So have kind of little right turn. Question I was just reading some articles about the wellness integration that brands are really bringing in. In particular, you know, sports are really honing in on wellness and even behavioral health with especially Simone Biles in the Olympics. It seems interesting to me. And I wonder, I think obviously systems can have partnerships and play a role in this wellness. But I wonder, you know, as consumers have all of these wearables and are tracking their health outside of the system, what risk is that for, say, 2040? I don't know to systems about or what does that say? What are the systems need to do and be thinking about? Right now we're worried about primary care and the leaky bucket, but what if it becomes wellness is over here and therefore primary care is with this other disruptor because the whole chain has kind of been disrupted.

Again, it's hard to say how things are evolved, but it's certainly something that we keep on the on the quote unquote watch list. My personal view would be that all of this is actually a good thing. And as Apple and some of the, you know, other tech companies are getting more and more into health care, to me, I think this idea that you as a consumer owned all of your health data and think of the future of the. It's going to be consumer centric. It'll be you have all of the information from your medical file, your electronic medical record. You might have different doctors and different physicians and aren't on the same system, but you can store all that in one central place. And then the wearables and the other sort of devices are tracking other things, and it all sort of sits there. And then any person that you're interacting with can you know who you choose to you can share all of that with and that's only going to lead to better outcomes. And so I think your health data is going to be held by you as an individual and then you're going to have the authority and flexibility to share it with whoever you want. So don't necessarily think data is going to end up, you know, that one sort of part of the value chain or one provider in that value chain is going to own all that data and therefore take the power away from the network. I think that's going to sit with the individual and it's only going to actually allow us as consumers, give us permission to access that data to become more personalized, more relevant, sort of more informative of the kinds of things that we can do to help them manage their health. So that becomes sort of the value exchange that says like, Hey, you share your data with us, this is where you're going to get in return and hopefully you'll find that value.

Again, it's hard to say how things are evolved, but it's certainly something that we keep on the on the quote unquote watch list. My personal view would be that all of this is actually a good thing. And as Apple and some of the, you know, other tech companies are getting more and more into health care, to me, I think this idea that you as a consumer owned all of your health data and think of the future of the. It's going to be consumer centric. It'll be you have all of the information from your medical file, your electronic medical record. You might have different doctors and different physicians and aren't on the same system, but you can store all that in one central place. And then the wearables and the other sort of devices are tracking other things, and it all sort of sits there. And then any person that you're interacting with can you know who you choose to you can share all of that with and that's only going to lead to better outcomes. And so I think your health data is going to be held by you as an individual and then you're going to have the authority and flexibility to share it with whoever you want. So don't necessarily think data is going to end up, you know, that one sort of part of the value chain or one provider in that value chain is going to own all that data and therefore take the power away from the network. I think that's going to sit with the individual and it's only going to actually allow us as consumers, give us permission to access that data to become more personalized, more relevant, sort of more informative of the kinds of things that we can do to help them manage their health. So that becomes sort of the value exchange that says like, Hey, you share your data with us, this is where you're going to get in return and hopefully you'll find that value.

Yeah, it'll all be on blockchain. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, just to wrap up, I would love to know one last thing of maybe what has been the most unexpected part joining a health system as the CMO.

Yeah, it'll all be on blockchain. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, just to wrap up, I would love to know one last thing of maybe what has been the most unexpected part joining a health system as the CMO.

It's hard to name one thing, so maybe I'll give you a couple. One is, you know, I came in sort of having spent half my career in consulting and sort of prided myself on saying like, Hey, don't know this industry that well, but I've jumped into a million different industries. And usually, you know, within about 3 or 4 months I could wrap my arms around it, fully, understand it, really understand the levers to sort of drive that industry and feel really comfortable. I could tell you over a year in Am still understanding healthcare. It is way more complicated and industry than anything that I've ever been a part of. So I think that's been a sort of humbling experience. On the flip side, some of what's sort of surprised me is the upside potential of what we can do in terms of building more customer centricity within the organization. Maybe I didn't fully appreciate just having always been in heavy consumer facing industries, like from day one of starting my career many years ago, it was always the customer or the customer or the customer or the customer and health care, just because of the historical nature of sort of how it's evolved. That wasn't always the initial focus. So that mindset is emerging and growing in healthcare, but just, you know, isn't sort of second nature today. So I'm surprised every day when we talk about, you know, issue A, B or C, like my sort of mindset just goes to certain one direction and find I have this contrarian view more often than I expected. But that being said, it's been actually, I wouldn't say easy, but pleasantly productive to manage that change through the organization because they very much are open to it and want to receive it. Just got to keep it simple.

It's hard to name one thing, so maybe I'll give you a couple. One is, you know, I came in sort of having spent half my career in consulting and sort of prided myself on saying like, Hey, don't know this industry that well, but I've jumped into a million different industries. And usually, you know, within about 3 or 4 months I could wrap my arms around it, fully, understand it, really understand the levers to sort of drive that industry and feel really comfortable. I could tell you over a year in Am still understanding healthcare. It is way more complicated and industry than anything that I've ever been a part of. So I think that's been a sort of humbling experience. On the flip side, some of what's sort of surprised me is the upside potential of what we can do in terms of building more customer centricity within the organization. Maybe I didn't fully appreciate just having always been in heavy consumer facing industries, like from day one of starting my career many years ago, it was always the customer or the customer or the customer or the customer and health care, just because of the historical nature of sort of how it's evolved. That wasn't always the initial focus. So that mindset is emerging and growing in healthcare, but just, you know, isn't sort of second nature today. So I'm surprised every day when we talk about, you know, issue A, B or C, like my sort of mindset just goes to certain one direction and find I have this contrarian view more often than I expected. But that being said, it's been actually, I wouldn't say easy, but pleasantly productive to manage that change through the organization because they very much are open to it and want to receive it. Just got to keep it simple.

Stupid every time. All right. Thanks, Eric, so much again for your time and participating in our podcast. I love the simplicity of his message as far as going back to basics of branding, elevating the brand and then communicating at the right time and the right place for the specific needs and services for an individual patient. Nailed it. Now, as I mentioned, we wanted to pivot a little bit and talk to you about some work we're doing around empathy. A lot of the trends that we've discussed on this podcast and are disrupting health care like consumerism and convenience culture are really underpinned by a basic human need, which is empathy. Now, this isn't new to health care. In fact, some may argue that it's endemic of all industries. Health care should be the leader of empathetic practices, and our care providers in most cases are. And historically, empathy has been placed on the shoulders of these providers. But in today's climate, to attract and retain patients, employees, health care brands can't just rely on a single moment of empathy to drive satisfaction. Brands have to foster empathy during the entire customer journey, from marketing to operations. Empathy when deployed holistically can make the difference between a health care brand that is sought after and one that has shunned. The trends we explore in this series are broadly applicable and being experienced across industries. But we wanted to use this time to examine how to integrate empathy in the patient and employee journey to improve experience and outcomes. So over the next eight weeks we will be highlighting one of four areas that we believe can be improved by approaching it with a little more empathy. So our first series will focus on why consumer demand for the empathetic employer is here to stay and how it will drive employee and patient retention. Our second report will be around when to deploy Web three technologies to foster deeper empathy and trust between care teams and patients. Third, we'll look into why health care's diversity and inclusion efforts are missing the mark and how empathy can bridge the gap. And fourth, we'll look at how mental health can be addressed at every step in the patient journey and employee experience to improve outcomes and satisfaction. So that's a little peek. But before we dive into that with you, all we ask. Consumers to define empathy for us wanting to understand from their perspective what does empathy mean? So we'll let a few consumers tell us about that in these next clips.

Stupid every time. All right. Thanks, Eric, so much again for your time and participating in our podcast. I love the simplicity of his message as far as going back to basics of branding, elevating the brand and then communicating at the right time and the right place for the specific needs and services for an individual patient. Nailed it. Now, as I mentioned, we wanted to pivot a little bit and talk to you about some work we're doing around empathy. A lot of the trends that we've discussed on this podcast and are disrupting health care like consumerism and convenience culture are really underpinned by a basic human need, which is empathy. Now, this isn't new to health care. In fact, some may argue that it's endemic of all industries. Health care should be the leader of empathetic practices, and our care providers in most cases are. And historically, empathy has been placed on the shoulders of these providers. But in today's climate, to attract and retain patients, employees, health care brands can't just rely on a single moment of empathy to drive satisfaction. Brands have to foster empathy during the entire customer journey, from marketing to operations. Empathy when deployed holistically can make the difference between a health care brand that is sought after and one that has shunned. The trends we explore in this series are broadly applicable and being experienced across industries. But we wanted to use this time to examine how to integrate empathy in the patient and employee journey to improve experience and outcomes. So over the next eight weeks we will be highlighting one of four areas that we believe can be improved by approaching it with a little more empathy. So our first series will focus on why consumer demand for the empathetic employer is here to stay and how it will drive employee and patient retention. Our second report will be around when to deploy Web three technologies to foster deeper empathy and trust between care teams and patients. Third, we'll look into why health care's diversity and inclusion efforts are missing the mark and how empathy can bridge the gap. And fourth, we'll look at how mental health can be addressed at every step in the patient journey and employee experience to improve outcomes and satisfaction. So that's a little peek. But before we dive into that with you, all we ask. Consumers to define empathy for us wanting to understand from their perspective what does empathy mean? So we'll let a few consumers tell us about that in these next clips.

Empathy is being sensitive to others.

Empathy is being sensitive to others.

Empathy is understanding a way that someone else feels.

Empathy is understanding a way that someone else feels.

Empathy is being able to understand where somebody else is experiencing something.

Empathy is being able to understand where somebody else is experiencing something.

Empathy means to me having the ability to understand and share what someone else is feeling.

Empathy means to me having the ability to understand and share what someone else is feeling.

Pretty straightforward, right? It seems as though individuals have a pretty good general understanding of what empathy is, but how can that play out in our delivery of services? We had one really interesting consumer experience that we felt was a clear example of walking in your patient shoes.

Pretty straightforward, right? It seems as though individuals have a pretty good general understanding of what empathy is, but how can that play out in our delivery of services? We had one really interesting consumer experience that we felt was a clear example of walking in your patient shoes.

At my dentist office, I gasped the first time I walked in because each and every patient chair looks out of a huge window onto a courtyard full of tens of different bird feeders so you can watch different birds come and eat while you get your teeth cleaned.

At my dentist office, I gasped the first time I walked in because each and every patient chair looks out of a huge window onto a courtyard full of tens of different bird feeders so you can watch different birds come and eat while you get your teeth cleaned.

So just even looking in the patient chair from this consumer's perspective, you know that somebody specifically thought about what they were looking at and put something peaceful and entertaining to watch for their patients. I love that clip. I love that somebody took the time to sit in the patient's chair and think about what they were seeing while they were at the dentist. I think this is a quintessential example of walking in your patient shoes and of an empathy in general. Now, this next voice of the consumer is one that I chose because it reminded me of the empathetic roots that health care is grounded in and that it's not just the patients and prospective patients that require empathy, but also the community around a patient.

So just even looking in the patient chair from this consumer's perspective, you know that somebody specifically thought about what they were looking at and put something peaceful and entertaining to watch for their patients. I love that clip. I love that somebody took the time to sit in the patient's chair and think about what they were seeing while they were at the dentist. I think this is a quintessential example of walking in your patient shoes and of an empathy in general. Now, this next voice of the consumer is one that I chose because it reminded me of the empathetic roots that health care is grounded in and that it's not just the patients and prospective patients that require empathy, but also the community around a patient.

So I've had a lot of experiences with health care, and I've actually been in health care, But the best experience I ever had with health care was after my dad had a seizure and was unresponsive. And we had a palliative care doctor who came in and talked to my family realistically about what his quality of life would be if he ever did regain consciousness and laid out what the humane kind of end of life plan would be there in the hospital. And the best part about it was this doctor was kind of the opposite of what all the other doctors were in, that she was really thinking about quality and not really about just life at any cost. And the way she communicated that to us was direct. It was realistic, it was honest, and it didn't rely on kind of any of these best case scenario like theories. She told it like it was. And in a moment of crazy crisis, when the world kind of felt like it was collapsing, to have someone who was honest and thoughtful with her communication was just unmatched. How valuable that was in helping us make the right decision for our family and for him and know that we had really considered all the options and that we didn't feel like anyone was kind of keeping anything away from us.

So I've had a lot of experiences with health care, and I've actually been in health care, But the best experience I ever had with health care was after my dad had a seizure and was unresponsive. And we had a palliative care doctor who came in and talked to my family realistically about what his quality of life would be if he ever did regain consciousness and laid out what the humane kind of end of life plan would be there in the hospital. And the best part about it was this doctor was kind of the opposite of what all the other doctors were in, that she was really thinking about quality and not really about just life at any cost. And the way she communicated that to us was direct. It was realistic, it was honest, and it didn't rely on kind of any of these best case scenario like theories. She told it like it was. And in a moment of crazy crisis, when the world kind of felt like it was collapsing, to have someone who was honest and thoughtful with her communication was just unmatched. How valuable that was in helping us make the right decision for our family and for him and know that we had really considered all the options and that we didn't feel like anyone was kind of keeping anything away from us.

A sincere thank you to that consumer who shared such an intimate experience with us. And this is really what health care is all about and why behaving with empathy is critical not just among care teams, but across all departments, organizations, and really industries. It's a universal requirement when interacting with people. So if you'd like to subscribe to this four part series on empathy, please subscribe to our blog at Inc.com or check out our social postings and the episode notes for links. The four areas that we will cover include why consumer demand for the empathetic employer is Here to Stay When to deploy Web three Technologies to Foster Deeper Empathy. Why Health Care is Diversity and Inclusion efforts are missing the mark and how empathy can bridge the gap. And finally, how mental health can be addressed at every step in the patient journey and employee experience. All right, you guys, thanks so much for tuning in. If you like what you heard, please share rate and review on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcasting platform. For more content about simplifying health care, visit Inc.com. That's Inc.com. This show is produced by Shift Forward Health, The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to Shift Forward Help on your favorite podcast app and you'll be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all for free. We'll see you next time on what Consumers want.

A sincere thank you to that consumer who shared such an intimate experience with us. And this is really what health care is all about and why behaving with empathy is critical not just among care teams, but across all departments, organizations, and really industries. It's a universal requirement when interacting with people. So if you'd like to subscribe to this four part series on empathy, please subscribe to our blog at Inc.com or check out our social postings and the episode notes for links. The four areas that we will cover include why consumer demand for the empathetic employer is Here to Stay When to deploy Web three Technologies to Foster Deeper Empathy. Why Health Care is Diversity and Inclusion efforts are missing the mark and how empathy can bridge the gap. And finally, how mental health can be addressed at every step in the patient journey and employee experience. All right, you guys, thanks so much for tuning in. If you like what you heard, please share rate and review on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcasting platform. For more content about simplifying health care, visit Inc.com. That's Inc.com. This show is produced by Shift Forward Health, The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to Shift Forward Help on your favorite podcast app and you'll be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all for free. We'll see you next time on what Consumers want.