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Yo, Our mission is clear.

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It's time to change healthcare. Have no fear. Today is the day. This is the hour together.

It's time to change healthcare. Have no fear. Today is the day. This is the hour together.

You know, we've got the power drop, the silos. We're all the same team experience. This is tech and marketing.

You know, we've got the power drop, the silos. We're all the same team experience. This is tech and marketing.

How can anyone be satisfied with the way things have always been? Yeah, we tried. So join us now.

How can anyone be satisfied with the way things have always been? Yeah, we tried. So join us now.

Join the Revolution Consumer First Health Is.

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The evolution status quo or like status? No. Yeah. This is the healthcare rep, y'all. Come on.

The evolution status quo or like status? No. Yeah. This is the healthcare rep, y'all. Come on.

New choices, new platforms, new care models and the health care of tomorrow, consumers win. But who will design it? What will it look like and how long will it take? We are here to answer those questions with some provocative thinking about how to create the health care that people actually want. Ready to roll up your sleeves, Look at the world a little differently, and explore the frontiers of consumer health together. Join us. This is the health care wrap. Welcome back. I'm your host, Jared Johnson. And here's what's going to go down today. We have the flavor of the week about Best Buy in Atrium Health's new hospital at Home Partnership. Is Health at home having a moment? And should we be waiting for innovators to fail? I'll talk about that then. I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Thomas Lee, Chief Medical Officer at Press Gainey, and author of the new book Health Care's Path Forward How Ongoing Crises are Creating New Standards for Excellence. We dive into how the goal of health care has always been to reduce suffering. What to do now that society has a new understanding of what that means and how it's all relevant to consumers as they navigate their health journeys. It's time to dive right in. Are you ready? Let's go.

New choices, new platforms, new care models and the health care of tomorrow, consumers win. But who will design it? What will it look like and how long will it take? We are here to answer those questions with some provocative thinking about how to create the health care that people actually want. Ready to roll up your sleeves, Look at the world a little differently, and explore the frontiers of consumer health together. Join us. This is the health care wrap. Welcome back. I'm your host, Jared Johnson. And here's what's going to go down today. We have the flavor of the week about Best Buy in Atrium Health's new hospital at Home Partnership. Is Health at home having a moment? And should we be waiting for innovators to fail? I'll talk about that then. I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Thomas Lee, Chief Medical Officer at Press Gainey, and author of the new book Health Care's Path Forward How Ongoing Crises are Creating New Standards for Excellence. We dive into how the goal of health care has always been to reduce suffering. What to do now that society has a new understanding of what that means and how it's all relevant to consumers as they navigate their health journeys. It's time to dive right in. Are you ready? Let's go.

Flavor of the week.

Flavor of the week.

Have you heard? Health care is moving to the home. Okay. Not all of it. And not everywhere. But health at home is having a moment and it's gaining traction long after some speculated that it might just be a pandemic induced fad. No. In fact, it turns out that health at home has real benefits when done correctly, and now the investments and headlines are becoming more frequent. A lot of bets are being made that providers can indeed deliver high quality care to patients in the comfort of their own homes while helping reduce emotional and financial burdens on patients and caregivers. The latest news comes from Best Buy Health and Atrium Health, who announced a partnership to enhance the patient experience, tapping into specially trained Geek Squad agents to provide and set up in-home wearable technology that allows a patient's vital signs to be monitored remotely by care teams around the clock. But don't worry, these won't necessarily be the same guys who are setting up your home theater. Deborah Disanto, president of Best Buy Health, said that they will be Geek Squad agents specially trained in health to deliver specific services in the home atrium. Health now has the largest hospital at home program in the country capable of caring for such conditions as heart failure, COPD, pneumonia, asthma and other medical and post-op conditions. Using wearable technology, virtual visits with providers and twice daily home visits from community paramedics. We've mentioned this before, but given the choice, wouldn't a pretty substantial number of patients prefer to be treated at home? I believe many health care organizations are still underestimating the patient population that could be treated successfully outside the walls of their institutions. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone's business models are set up to benefit by that fact. Yet surely a big part of the resistance is the lack of desire by care teams to have to learn a new workflow and to accommodate even more change than what they've already experienced in the last few years. And if we can't find doctors and nurses to staff hospital beds, where will we find people to staff actual beds? But that's one reason I'm interested in this partnership. The process of training and delivering and setting up equipment is important here. So rather than pull clinicians out of the environment where they're needed most, why not partner with the market leading team that's already trained in setting up tech in the home? I also think this partnership will clear the way for more health systems to view partnerships with retailers as a path forward rather than a distraction or worse, a betrayal. And yes, some people feel that way, so don't worry, we aren't turning this into the home care wrap anytime soon. But we're definitely continuing to pay attention to the health at home movement. At this point, I'm mostly seeing positive signals, but I think you know by now that I don't sit around waiting for innovators to fail. I find reasons to cheer for them. After all, you never know who might make sense for you to partner with. Next, let's all find more reasons to encourage innovation in and out of the hospital walls. That's another way that we'll build the health care of tomorrow, and that's the flavor of the week.

Have you heard? Health care is moving to the home. Okay. Not all of it. And not everywhere. But health at home is having a moment and it's gaining traction long after some speculated that it might just be a pandemic induced fad. No. In fact, it turns out that health at home has real benefits when done correctly, and now the investments and headlines are becoming more frequent. A lot of bets are being made that providers can indeed deliver high quality care to patients in the comfort of their own homes while helping reduce emotional and financial burdens on patients and caregivers. The latest news comes from Best Buy Health and Atrium Health, who announced a partnership to enhance the patient experience, tapping into specially trained Geek Squad agents to provide and set up in-home wearable technology that allows a patient's vital signs to be monitored remotely by care teams around the clock. But don't worry, these won't necessarily be the same guys who are setting up your home theater. Deborah Disanto, president of Best Buy Health, said that they will be Geek Squad agents specially trained in health to deliver specific services in the home atrium. Health now has the largest hospital at home program in the country capable of caring for such conditions as heart failure, COPD, pneumonia, asthma and other medical and post-op conditions. Using wearable technology, virtual visits with providers and twice daily home visits from community paramedics. We've mentioned this before, but given the choice, wouldn't a pretty substantial number of patients prefer to be treated at home? I believe many health care organizations are still underestimating the patient population that could be treated successfully outside the walls of their institutions. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone's business models are set up to benefit by that fact. Yet surely a big part of the resistance is the lack of desire by care teams to have to learn a new workflow and to accommodate even more change than what they've already experienced in the last few years. And if we can't find doctors and nurses to staff hospital beds, where will we find people to staff actual beds? But that's one reason I'm interested in this partnership. The process of training and delivering and setting up equipment is important here. So rather than pull clinicians out of the environment where they're needed most, why not partner with the market leading team that's already trained in setting up tech in the home? I also think this partnership will clear the way for more health systems to view partnerships with retailers as a path forward rather than a distraction or worse, a betrayal. And yes, some people feel that way, so don't worry, we aren't turning this into the home care wrap anytime soon. But we're definitely continuing to pay attention to the health at home movement. At this point, I'm mostly seeing positive signals, but I think you know by now that I don't sit around waiting for innovators to fail. I find reasons to cheer for them. After all, you never know who might make sense for you to partner with. Next, let's all find more reasons to encourage innovation in and out of the hospital walls. That's another way that we'll build the health care of tomorrow, and that's the flavor of the week.

The flow. The flow. The flow.

The flow. The flow. The flow.

All right, everyone, let's get back into the flow. Give it up for Dr. Thomas Lee. Dr. Lee's the chief medical officer at Press Gainey, and he's the author of a new book. It's called Care's Path Forward How Ongoing Crises Are Creating New Standards for Excellence. We're going to dive into that and everything about what that means and and why Dr. Lee wrote it and what he hopes the industry can get out of it. But first and foremost, welcome, Dr. Lee, to the health care app.

All right, everyone, let's get back into the flow. Give it up for Dr. Thomas Lee. Dr. Lee's the chief medical officer at Press Gainey, and he's the author of a new book. It's called Care's Path Forward How Ongoing Crises Are Creating New Standards for Excellence. We're going to dive into that and everything about what that means and and why Dr. Lee wrote it and what he hopes the industry can get out of it. But first and foremost, welcome, Dr. Lee, to the health care app.

Well, thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Well, thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Let's start with a quick summary of your background, like the fill in some some blanks for us in the in your bio. What did we miss? What else would you like our listeners to know about you and your background?

Let's start with a quick summary of your background, like the fill in some some blanks for us in the in your bio. What did we miss? What else would you like our listeners to know about you and your background?

Well, I am an internist and cardiologist, and I still practice one day a week at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston. I've also been an editor and researcher like I'm the editor in chief or any catalyst, the normal Journal of Medicine spin off focusing on health care delivery. But my main job is chief Medical Officer for Press Gainey. And in those two roles of the Catalyst role in the press, I run around the country a lot. I see a lot of organizations, and I've got a pretty good feel for what we're going through. And the book is my attempt to like lay out a path forward.

Well, I am an internist and cardiologist, and I still practice one day a week at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston. I've also been an editor and researcher like I'm the editor in chief or any catalyst, the normal Journal of Medicine spin off focusing on health care delivery. But my main job is chief Medical Officer for Press Gainey. And in those two roles of the Catalyst role in the press, I run around the country a lot. I see a lot of organizations, and I've got a pretty good feel for what we're going through. And the book is my attempt to like lay out a path forward.

That's great because there's a lot that's needed here. And I think some of the areas we're going to dive into really help us understand what we've learned, but also what it teaches us about about human behavior. I think it's kind of one of the connective tissues here. So tell you what, let's if I can get one more thing just because I think it's it's really interesting. A lot of people are asking like career related questions these days. So before we dive into the book, I'm wondering, is there a piece of career advice that you've received over your over your life that that you're just like something that you'd want to pass on to people?

That's great because there's a lot that's needed here. And I think some of the areas we're going to dive into really help us understand what we've learned, but also what it teaches us about about human behavior. I think it's kind of one of the connective tissues here. So tell you what, let's if I can get one more thing just because I think it's it's really interesting. A lot of people are asking like career related questions these days. So before we dive into the book, I'm wondering, is there a piece of career advice that you've received over your over your life that that you're just like something that you'd want to pass on to people?

At the very beginning of my career, my very first mentor, Lee Goldman, who eventually became dean of Columbia, he gave me the advice of you have to have a clear idea of what you want people to think of when your name comes up. We didn't use the word brand back then. That's kind of what we were talking about. And his advice was that what they should think of is the problem you're trying to solve and how passionate you are about that problem and how good your work is on that problem. He made the point that, you know, you don't want them to think about how funny you are or even how smart you are because you know, those are the condiments. The main course is the problem you're trying to solve. And that problem can change with time. But at any given moment, that should be the focus and it should be clear in your mind so you can make it clear in the minds of other people.

At the very beginning of my career, my very first mentor, Lee Goldman, who eventually became dean of Columbia, he gave me the advice of you have to have a clear idea of what you want people to think of when your name comes up. We didn't use the word brand back then. That's kind of what we were talking about. And his advice was that what they should think of is the problem you're trying to solve and how passionate you are about that problem and how good your work is on that problem. He made the point that, you know, you don't want them to think about how funny you are or even how smart you are because you know, those are the condiments. The main course is the problem you're trying to solve. And that problem can change with time. But at any given moment, that should be the focus and it should be clear in your mind so you can make it clear in the minds of other people.

Oh, I like that, because we all need a lot of clarity these days. I feel like focusing is one of the hardest things to do. So with everything coming out of all the information and everything we see and and scroll through, quite frankly, it's a great piece of advice. So thanks for sharing that. Let's get into this. The book is called Health Care's Path Forward. I know in it you discuss how the goal of health care has always been to reduce suffering. And I think this is a great setup because it's so true. But now we're at this point where society has this new understanding of what suffering means. There's a lot of different nuances you put into that. Let's start there. Like, what do you mean by that and how must health care organizations adapt?

Oh, I like that, because we all need a lot of clarity these days. I feel like focusing is one of the hardest things to do. So with everything coming out of all the information and everything we see and and scroll through, quite frankly, it's a great piece of advice. So thanks for sharing that. Let's get into this. The book is called Health Care's Path Forward. I know in it you discuss how the goal of health care has always been to reduce suffering. And I think this is a great setup because it's so true. But now we're at this point where society has this new understanding of what suffering means. There's a lot of different nuances you put into that. Let's start there. Like, what do you mean by that and how must health care organizations adapt?

Well, you know, as miserable as things have seemed in the last few years, I actually feel that we are we're actually better people now. We've got a deeper understanding of what really matters. When people are vulnerable, they get clarity. And I think that's been happening to us. And I think now we understand that suffering is something that isn't just about patients, but it also is being experienced by the people taking care of patients, the family members taking care of patients, but also the people in the health care system. So we've got a broader idea of who is suffering and we've got a deeper idea of what suffering really means. Yeah, of course it's pain. Of course it's fear and anxiety and confusion. But in the last few years, I think we've come to understand that people suffer when they don't feel respected. You know that this is something that flows directly from the George Floyd murder and the and the thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion that has evolved for all of us over the last few years. If people don't feel respected, they can't feel good about the work they're doing or about the.

Well, you know, as miserable as things have seemed in the last few years, I actually feel that we are we're actually better people now. We've got a deeper understanding of what really matters. When people are vulnerable, they get clarity. And I think that's been happening to us. And I think now we understand that suffering is something that isn't just about patients, but it also is being experienced by the people taking care of patients, the family members taking care of patients, but also the people in the health care system. So we've got a broader idea of who is suffering and we've got a deeper idea of what suffering really means. Yeah, of course it's pain. Of course it's fear and anxiety and confusion. But in the last few years, I think we've come to understand that people suffer when they don't feel respected. You know that this is something that flows directly from the George Floyd murder and the and the thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion that has evolved for all of us over the last few years. If people don't feel respected, they can't feel good about the work they're doing or about the.

Care that they're receiving. So respect is something that we're thinking.

Care that they're receiving. So respect is something that we're thinking.

About much more clearly now, and we're thinking about trust. If people don't trust that their care is good or if caregivers don't trust that their organization is going to be looking out for them, then you're not going to you're not going to achieve excellence. So thinking about some of these deeper nuances to what suffering means and what the reduction of suffering means, we're better positioned now. To take these issues on than we've ever been.

About much more clearly now, and we're thinking about trust. If people don't trust that their care is good or if caregivers don't trust that their organization is going to be looking out for them, then you're not going to you're not going to achieve excellence. So thinking about some of these deeper nuances to what suffering means and what the reduction of suffering means, we're better positioned now. To take these issues on than we've ever been.

So you talk about how organizations have to adapt. This is the new reality. There's a new understanding of what suffering is happening is going on on all sides of the healthcare equation. What are some of those ways that you talk about, about adapting, and how do we take some steps forward there?

So you talk about how organizations have to adapt. This is the new reality. There's a new understanding of what suffering is happening is going on on all sides of the healthcare equation. What are some of those ways that you talk about, about adapting, and how do we take some steps forward there?

Well, in the book I try to lay out the longer term problems that we have to take on that are not going away with.

Well, in the book I try to lay out the longer term problems that we have to take on that are not going away with.

The the end of the.

The the end of the.

Pandemic. You know, the pandemic is still puttering along, but we can see that life is never going back. And so we have to recognize there are long term challenges. And I would describe some of them as trust from patience, trust from employees, feelings of safety, feelings of equity and inclusion, and then taking on the change in the marketplace. You know, people are more wired now and consumerism is really has really gone into a new gear. And so recognizing that there are these long term challenges, health care organizations have to respond. They can't just assume that business as usual is going to help them take on these qualitatively greater challenges that are never going away.

Pandemic. You know, the pandemic is still puttering along, but we can see that life is never going back. And so we have to recognize there are long term challenges. And I would describe some of them as trust from patience, trust from employees, feelings of safety, feelings of equity and inclusion, and then taking on the change in the marketplace. You know, people are more wired now and consumerism is really has really gone into a new gear. And so recognizing that there are these long term challenges, health care organizations have to respond. They can't just assume that business as usual is going to help them take on these qualitatively greater challenges that are never going away.

I like that you're bringing in the consumer's point of view here, right? That's where we tend to focus in the lens. We look at a lot of things through here on this show because you're referring to that phenomenon of people not being respected or feeling respected. Right? And so from the consumer's point of view, the the one who is either actively being treated as patient or they may need that in the future or it's already happened, you know, so pre or post care, all of those points, it could easily feel like somebody's time, for instance, isn't being respected. I think it's a different feeling of not being respected in my mind, but that can absolutely play into how people feel about the care they receive. And that all kind of rolls up into whether they seek care again the next time, even if they need it. And so there are just so many nuances within a consumer's health journey. What other themes from your book are relevant to that point of view, like to consumers as they attempt to navigate their health journeys? What other themes from your book are are relevant there?

I like that you're bringing in the consumer's point of view here, right? That's where we tend to focus in the lens. We look at a lot of things through here on this show because you're referring to that phenomenon of people not being respected or feeling respected. Right? And so from the consumer's point of view, the the one who is either actively being treated as patient or they may need that in the future or it's already happened, you know, so pre or post care, all of those points, it could easily feel like somebody's time, for instance, isn't being respected. I think it's a different feeling of not being respected in my mind, but that can absolutely play into how people feel about the care they receive. And that all kind of rolls up into whether they seek care again the next time, even if they need it. And so there are just so many nuances within a consumer's health journey. What other themes from your book are relevant to that point of view, like to consumers as they attempt to navigate their health journeys? What other themes from your book are are relevant there?

Well, you know, I think you were hitting on some really important ones and that is that like.

Well, you know, I think you were hitting on some really important ones and that is that like.

That the respect.

That the respect.

That consumers feel and are there efforts being made to build their trust, those two, for example, which you just brought up, they're hugely important and they are a major departure from business as usual. If I were to describe business as usual.

That consumers feel and are there efforts being made to build their trust, those two, for example, which you just brought up, they're hugely important and they are a major departure from business as usual. If I were to describe business as usual.

As it was, you.

As it was, you.

Know, let's say ten, 20 years ago, there were lots of doctors like me who thought it was all about how wonderful we were and that everything else might be terrible. But if they got in front of me and I was wonderful, that's all that really mattered. And so the pressure was on me to be wonderful. I think it's still important that doctors and nurses and others try to be wonderful, but we know that's not the whole story anymore. The real experience for people begins when the.

Know, let's say ten, 20 years ago, there were lots of doctors like me who thought it was all about how wonderful we were and that everything else might be terrible. But if they got in front of me and I was wonderful, that's all that really mattered. And so the pressure was on me to be wonderful. I think it's still important that doctors and nurses and others try to be wonderful, but we know that's not the whole story anymore. The real experience for people begins when the.

Log onto the web and they start searching for information. It's not beginning when they sit down across from me in the office.

Log onto the web and they start searching for information. It's not beginning when they sit down across from me in the office.

You know, one interesting.

You know, one interesting.

Thing I see is that a lot of.

Thing I see is that a lot of.

My colleagues inside medicine, they used to have these silly little debates about I don't have customers, I don't have consumers, I have patients.

My colleagues inside medicine, they used to have these silly little debates about I don't have customers, I don't have consumers, I have patients.

I don't hear people talking about that anymore.

I don't hear people talking about that anymore.

We know they're the same people. And when they're consumers, they recognize that they've got choices. When they don't have choices, when they're lying down in front of me, sedated and I'm about to do a procedure.

We know they're the same people. And when they're consumers, they recognize that they've got choices. When they don't have choices, when they're lying down in front of me, sedated and I'm about to do a procedure.

Okay. They're not really being.

Okay. They're not really being.

Consumers at that moment, but there's a continuum and most of the time they are looking for information and they're thinking about their choices today. And we should give them that information and help them make that kind of choice.

Consumers at that moment, but there's a continuum and most of the time they are looking for information and they're thinking about their choices today. And we should give them that information and help them make that kind of choice.

So the.

So the.

Allergic reaction that some people on the provider side of health care used to have to.

Allergic reaction that some people on the provider side of health care used to have to.

The idea that they had.

The idea that they had.

Consumers who are customers and they had to treat them that way, I think that's.

Consumers who are customers and they had to treat them that way, I think that's.

That's faded away in the last few.

That's faded away in the last few.

Years. And they're human beings and we have to understand what they're going through. So an example of the kinds of things I see that are really different now is, you know, organizations are trying to understand the web experience that happens to people when they log on looking for information about their conditions, about the doctors or institutions they might go see. And they're starting to look at reputation management, not as. Is like some dark science where you're tricking people, but where you're trying to actually flood the web with good, accurate.

Years. And they're human beings and we have to understand what they're going through. So an example of the kinds of things I see that are really different now is, you know, organizations are trying to understand the web experience that happens to people when they log on looking for information about their conditions, about the doctors or institutions they might go see. And they're starting to look at reputation management, not as. Is like some dark science where you're tricking people, but where you're trying to actually flood the web with good, accurate.

Information.

Information.

So that people can see consistent, good information and feel more trusting. For example, if you were to log on and do a search on.

So that people can see consistent, good information and feel more trusting. For example, if you were to log on and do a search on.

Your.

Your.

Physician, you probably will see 6 or 7 different websites and they'll go four stars, five stars, two stars, two stars based upon.

Physician, you probably will see 6 or 7 different websites and they'll go four stars, five stars, two stars, two stars based upon.

You know, four surveys and comments. And and they may have only been done by one.

You know, four surveys and comments. And and they may have only been done by one.

Patient and two angry neighbors.

Patient and two angry neighbors.

And the and the doctor's mother. But when people see.

And the and the doctor's mother. But when people see.

Two stars, four stars, five stars, it doesn't build their trust. They want consistent information. You know, they want to see that Tommy Lee is five stars, five stars, five stars. And then they can sort of trust that. Well, Tom Lee probably is a five star physician. And when they come to me, they are more likely to feel I had a five star experience, you know, because they're starting their interaction with me with more trust than they would otherwise. So thinking about what are patients seeing and experiencing when they go online to start their searches, that's an important part, not just of capturing business, but of building trust.

Two stars, four stars, five stars, it doesn't build their trust. They want consistent information. You know, they want to see that Tommy Lee is five stars, five stars, five stars. And then they can sort of trust that. Well, Tom Lee probably is a five star physician. And when they come to me, they are more likely to feel I had a five star experience, you know, because they're starting their interaction with me with more trust than they would otherwise. So thinking about what are patients seeing and experiencing when they go online to start their searches, that's an important part, not just of capturing business, but of building trust.

Stay tuned for more provocative thinking after the break.

Stay tuned for more provocative thinking after the break.

Consumer demands, disruptive technologies and I are shaping health care for years to come. On the Hello Healthcare podcast, we dive deep on these issues with leaders who are driving change. These stories will inspire you to create and demand a better future in health care. Learn more at Hello healthcare.com. And now back to the show.

Consumer demands, disruptive technologies and I are shaping health care for years to come. On the Hello Healthcare podcast, we dive deep on these issues with leaders who are driving change. These stories will inspire you to create and demand a better future in health care. Learn more at Hello healthcare.com. And now back to the show.

I love that part. Trust is always a part of the equation. I see different, different iterations of the equation of addressing consumers needs, and trust is always a big part of it. So I'm glad you mentioned that. I can tell you it's it's interesting putting out content about consumer's needs in health care, which I've been doing for a few years now, because I still get pushback sometimes. And I think it's just one of those pieces where like there are there are words that that we're still not used to seeing or the way that things are phrased, we're just not quite used to hearing still in the industry. And one example is when I talk about designing around consumers needs and health care and let's make the transaction, there.

I love that part. Trust is always a part of the equation. I see different, different iterations of the equation of addressing consumers needs, and trust is always a big part of it. So I'm glad you mentioned that. I can tell you it's it's interesting putting out content about consumer's needs in health care, which I've been doing for a few years now, because I still get pushback sometimes. And I think it's just one of those pieces where like there are there are words that that we're still not used to seeing or the way that things are phrased, we're just not quite used to hearing still in the industry. And one example is when I talk about designing around consumers needs and health care and let's make the transaction, there.

Are transactional parts of the.

Are transactional parts of the.

Experience. Let's make those easier. I still get pushback a lot, saying.

Experience. Let's make those easier. I still get pushback a lot, saying.

Well, you.

Well, you.

Can't do any of that. If it makes anything harder for the provider. And I'm thinking, Exactly. They're not mutually exclusive here. I want to do both. Let's not do that at anyone's expense. Let's not make things easier and.

Can't do any of that. If it makes anything harder for the provider. And I'm thinking, Exactly. They're not mutually exclusive here. I want to do both. Let's not do that at anyone's expense. Let's not make things easier and.

Make it harder for.

Make it harder for.

Somebody else. Like that's not the automatic thing that happens when you make it easier. On one side of the equation, the goal is to make it easier on both sides. And so anything as as simple as making it easy to schedule or the example you were giving or just reviewing customer ratings and reviews of different providers, let's make those parts easier. And I feel like it's hopefully the next evolution of the of the entire conversation around consumer driven innovation and health care that we can get to. And think we are in parts. But you know, we still get pushback when we start going this direction in our in our conversation. I don't like, are you seeing the same thing?

Somebody else. Like that's not the automatic thing that happens when you make it easier. On one side of the equation, the goal is to make it easier on both sides. And so anything as as simple as making it easy to schedule or the example you were giving or just reviewing customer ratings and reviews of different providers, let's make those parts easier. And I feel like it's hopefully the next evolution of the of the entire conversation around consumer driven innovation and health care that we can get to. And think we are in parts. But you know, we still get pushback when we start going this direction in our in our conversation. I don't like, are you seeing the same thing?

You know, I think that pushback is going away or it.

You know, I think that pushback is going away or it.

Should go.

Should go.

Away. And when you get that pushback.

Away. And when you get that pushback.

You can steer them to me, because I think what our data show at present.

You can steer them to me, because I think what our data show at present.

Very, very clearly is that when.

Very, very clearly is that when.

Consumers slash patients.

Consumers slash patients.

Which is to say any normal human being.

Which is to say any normal human being.

When they have friction in.

When they have friction in.

Their process of care.

Their process of care.

They cannot help but think, do these people care about me? And if they can't get this right, what else might they be screwing.

They cannot help but think, do these people care about me? And if they can't get this right, what else might they be screwing.

Up like.

Up like.

If they can't answer their phone, if they're if the information on the website is inaccurate, if they can't get an appointment in, you know, a reasonable period of time, the patients lose their trust as they should. In the old days when medicine was simpler. Okay, maybe all that really mattered was what happened when they were sitting across from me. But today, I think everyone knows that medicine is much more complex.

If they can't answer their phone, if they're if the information on the website is inaccurate, if they can't get an appointment in, you know, a reasonable period of time, the patients lose their trust as they should. In the old days when medicine was simpler. Okay, maybe all that really mattered was what happened when they were sitting across from me. But today, I think everyone knows that medicine is much more complex.

And it takes systems to take care of people.

And it takes systems to take care of people.

And when the systems aren't working naturally, people lose their trust. So taking, you know, recognizing that friction and reducing it is a hugely important part of our work in health care forever.

And when the systems aren't working naturally, people lose their trust. So taking, you know, recognizing that friction and reducing it is a hugely important part of our work in health care forever.

It really is so important to phrase it that way. I appreciate that. I feel like, you know, I love this, you know, this thought of a patient or a consumer even before their care, reviewing ratings and online information about a provider or their profile, because it really does fuel so much of their decision. And one thing I've learned is that people will associate the name on that profile might be Doctor Lee, but the person they encounter first isn't going to be Doctor Lee. It's going to be someone else in the office, someone else in the group, someone else at the hospital. And so all those names just get associated with the experience with all those people gets associated with you. Doctor Lee So it's understanding how all that works together to have a consumer make their choice. And I think we're getting better at that. I really do think we're understanding that part better and what it means and how do we adjust the way that we are presenting things and people out there. It's just an interesting piece of this puzzle. Again, along with that, you know, it seems like there are a lot of ways that every healthcare institution can help consumers along their journey. So knowing now that we're talking a lot more these days about the choices that consumers make that affect their health and wellness long before they're a patient, long before they're actively seen by a clinician and long after they're making choices every day. And I say they it's we we're in the first person. We're all health consumers. So what have we learned out there about helping consumers make good choices? And I'm curious, like if there's any connection between that and the theme of suffering in the book, which I just keep coming back to, I think it's just it's an absolutely fascinating perspective on what's going on these days. Is there anything there that helps us understand how to help consumers make good choices?

It really is so important to phrase it that way. I appreciate that. I feel like, you know, I love this, you know, this thought of a patient or a consumer even before their care, reviewing ratings and online information about a provider or their profile, because it really does fuel so much of their decision. And one thing I've learned is that people will associate the name on that profile might be Doctor Lee, but the person they encounter first isn't going to be Doctor Lee. It's going to be someone else in the office, someone else in the group, someone else at the hospital. And so all those names just get associated with the experience with all those people gets associated with you. Doctor Lee So it's understanding how all that works together to have a consumer make their choice. And I think we're getting better at that. I really do think we're understanding that part better and what it means and how do we adjust the way that we are presenting things and people out there. It's just an interesting piece of this puzzle. Again, along with that, you know, it seems like there are a lot of ways that every healthcare institution can help consumers along their journey. So knowing now that we're talking a lot more these days about the choices that consumers make that affect their health and wellness long before they're a patient, long before they're actively seen by a clinician and long after they're making choices every day. And I say they it's we we're in the first person. We're all health consumers. So what have we learned out there about helping consumers make good choices? And I'm curious, like if there's any connection between that and the theme of suffering in the book, which I just keep coming back to, I think it's just it's an absolutely fascinating perspective on what's going on these days. Is there anything there that helps us understand how to help consumers make good choices?

You know, I think there are and I would say.

You know, I think there are and I would say.

Here are the three key words that I would throw out out there for your Jared. And they are.

Here are the three key words that I would throw out out there for your Jared. And they are.

Transparency. Complicity and consistency. And I think, you know, I would say five.

Transparency. Complicity and consistency. And I think, you know, I would say five.

Seven years.

Seven years.

Ago, I did understand that transparency was a good thing, an inherently good thing, even if it's painful and.

Ago, I did understand that transparency was a good thing, an inherently good thing, even if it's painful and.

Scary for health care providers. You know, they they're always worried that the consumers won't be sophisticated enough to understand the data. But the.

Scary for health care providers. You know, they they're always worried that the consumers won't be sophisticated enough to understand the data. But the.

More you show.

More you show.

The better. It's an.

The better. It's an.

Important.

Important.

Basic step in building trust. So just.

Basic step in building trust. So just.

You know, sharing pictures of the doctors and so on and sharing the comments from patients.

You know, sharing pictures of the doctors and so on and sharing the comments from patients.

This is the kind of step that helps build trust. It's it's respecting.

This is the kind of step that helps build trust. It's it's respecting.

That people can make their.

That people can make their.

Own judgments and giving them information.

Own judgments and giving them information.

So transparency is number one. Now, what I didn't understand until like the last couple of years is simplicity and consistency. And there's a relationship between them. But basically.

So transparency is number one. Now, what I didn't understand until like the last couple of years is simplicity and consistency. And there's a relationship between them. But basically.

Everyone on the consumer.

Everyone on the consumer.

Side, on the patient side, on the caregiver side, everyone is overwhelmed.

Side, on the patient side, on the caregiver side, everyone is overwhelmed.

These days by complexity.

These days by complexity.

And we've got to make life.

And we've got to make life.

Simpler.

Simpler.

Even if it means giving up some.

Even if it means giving up some.

Of the variation. Like, you.

Of the variation. Like, you.

Know, like I can tell you that like, you know, I work at Brigham Women's Hospital and, you know, Mass General, Brigham Healthcare System, all the different orthopedic groups, for example, want to have their own web pages.

Know, like I can tell you that like, you know, I work at Brigham Women's Hospital and, you know, Mass General, Brigham Healthcare System, all the different orthopedic groups, for example, want to have their own web pages.

With their own their own special designs.

With their own their own special designs.

But that stinks for consumers. You know, the and, you know, going to Web pages and not knowing your way around. We all know that stinks. So giving people the same simple approaches and then having them be consistent so they're not feeling lost when they go to a new website. But it feels like you've been there before. Those two things are very, very important.

But that stinks for consumers. You know, the and, you know, going to Web pages and not knowing your way around. We all know that stinks. So giving people the same simple approaches and then having them be consistent so they're not feeling lost when they go to a new website. But it feels like you've been there before. Those two things are very, very important.

For.

For.

To characterize our interactions between systems and human beings.

To characterize our interactions between systems and human beings.

Whether they're patients, consumers or parts of the workforce outstanding.

Whether they're patients, consumers or parts of the workforce outstanding.

That gives us a great roadmap. I mean, it gives us just like a like a north, like a true north here, if you will, to to reach for and keeping those terms transparency, simplicity and consistency, Keeping it that simple in what we're aiming for just gives us such a clear destination. I love that thought. And any other guidelines for balancing consumers needs and clinicians needs? Are there better ways to design experiences that don't add burdens to clinicians? When you think about why.

That gives us a great roadmap. I mean, it gives us just like a like a north, like a true north here, if you will, to to reach for and keeping those terms transparency, simplicity and consistency, Keeping it that simple in what we're aiming for just gives us such a clear destination. I love that thought. And any other guidelines for balancing consumers needs and clinicians needs? Are there better ways to design experiences that don't add burdens to clinicians? When you think about why.

Why have we ended up with a.

Why have we ended up with a.

System that is.

System that is.

So confusing for people? I would say there.

So confusing for people? I would say there.

Are two.

Are two.

Forces, one good, one not so good. The good force is unbelievable. Medical progress.

Forces, one good, one not so good. The good force is unbelievable. Medical progress.

Over the last, you know, ten, 20, 30.

Over the last, you know, ten, 20, 30.

Years. It's it's incredible how much more we can do for patients today. And the flip side of that coin is that, oh, my gosh, you have.

Years. It's it's incredible how much more we can do for patients today. And the flip side of that coin is that, oh, my gosh, you have.

To get a whole lot of people working.

To get a whole lot of people working.

Together.

Together.

And they're.

And they're.

Still figuring out how to work together.

Still figuring out how to work together.

To meet people's needs.

To meet people's needs.

So part of that part of the complexity.

So part of that part of the complexity.

Is it.

Is it.

Comes from something great medical progress. And I hope we never stop. There's no question the.

Comes from something great medical progress. And I hope we never stop. There's no question the.

Complexity, it.

Complexity, it.

Creates.

Creates.

Confusion out there for caregivers as well as patients.

Confusion out there for caregivers as well as patients.

The not so good force is the fee for service system where so much of the interactions.

The not so good force is the fee for service system where so much of the interactions.

People have with offices.

People have with offices.

With.

With.

Institutions, it's around around collecting money.

Institutions, it's around around collecting money.

And making sure that the money.

And making sure that the money.

Gets collected accurately.

Gets collected accurately.

And as much money as possible.

And as much money as possible.

Of course.

Of course.

And that is distracting. And it does not simplify life for either caregivers or for patients. But, you know, the chief financial officers have always had a lot of influence on what systems prioritize, but recognizing that.

And that is distracting. And it does not simplify life for either caregivers or for patients. But, you know, the chief financial officers have always had a lot of influence on what systems prioritize, but recognizing that.

We have to.

We have to.

Mute that issue and put and, you know, it's a crisis of what.

Mute that issue and put and, you know, it's a crisis of what.

Humans are going through, patients and caregivers.

Humans are going through, patients and caregivers.

We have to put them first. If we do anything that makes.

We have to put them first. If we do anything that makes.

The life.

The life.

Of either of them.

Of either of them.

More complex, we have to really.

More complex, we have to really.

Think hard.

Think hard.

About whether we.

About whether we.

Want to do that or whether there's another.

Want to do that or whether there's another.

Way to accomplish the goal. So I would say we have to we're going to.

Way to accomplish the goal. So I would say we have to we're going to.

Be grappling with progress.

Be grappling with progress.

Forever, and we have to.

Forever, and we have to.

Figure out how to dampen the influence of fee for.

Figure out how to dampen the influence of fee for.

Service on.

Service on.

What.

What.

Patients and caregivers.

Patients and caregivers.

Have to do.

Have to do.

Because it.

Because it.

Just, you know, introduces too many.

Just, you know, introduces too many.

Mouse clicks that don't lead anywhere beneficial.

Mouse clicks that don't lead anywhere beneficial.

Well, I like that. That's so true. It wouldn't it be simpler if we could just all push a button and move on from fee for service and have. All the business models around it that work in the right ways for everybody. We know that's not what's going to happen and what's happening. And it's it's a multi-decade process at this point to understand where value based care works and where it doesn't and what we do as a result. So that's an important part of the discussion here. I love this last question for you, Dr. Lee, because I always like kind of going somewhere at the end that's very open ended and just thinking about what's possible. Where do you hope all this gets us? So what's the short term destination? Where do you hope all these efforts get us as an industry and as a society in the next 2 to 3 years?

Well, I like that. That's so true. It wouldn't it be simpler if we could just all push a button and move on from fee for service and have. All the business models around it that work in the right ways for everybody. We know that's not what's going to happen and what's happening. And it's it's a multi-decade process at this point to understand where value based care works and where it doesn't and what we do as a result. So that's an important part of the discussion here. I love this last question for you, Dr. Lee, because I always like kind of going somewhere at the end that's very open ended and just thinking about what's possible. Where do you hope all this gets us? So what's the short term destination? Where do you hope all these efforts get us as an industry and as a society in the next 2 to 3 years?

Well, you know, so here is my short to medium.

Well, you know, so here is my short to medium.

Term goal, which.

Term goal, which.

Is.

Is.

That that the word access that.

That that the word access that.

Over the course of the decade in front of us that it ceases to be something that people.

Over the course of the decade in front of us that it ceases to be something that people.

Worry about or complain about in health care and right now they worry about, can I get an appointment?

Worry about or complain about in health care and right now they worry about, can I get an appointment?

Can I get my question answered access to information. And my hope is that just isn't banking. We no longer worry about access.

Can I get my question answered access to information. And my hope is that just isn't banking. We no longer worry about access.

To getting.

To getting.

Checks deposited and getting money from, you know, getting.

Checks deposited and getting money from, you know, getting.

Money withdrawn that it's become a 24 by seven easy thing to do in.

Money withdrawn that it's become a 24 by seven easy thing to do in.

Health care as well. And I think that I'm you know, I'm a little older than you, Jared, but like when I was in training, I remember sweating bullets about can I get how am I going to get out to deposit this check so that my rent check doesn't bounce, which I already mailed at the end of the month? And I'm sure you know you're.

Health care as well. And I think that I'm you know, I'm a little older than you, Jared, but like when I was in training, I remember sweating bullets about can I get how am I going to get out to deposit this check so that my rent check doesn't bounce, which I already mailed at the end of the month? And I'm sure you know you're.

Younger than me. You probably find that a joke that I would worry about that. But all of my colleagues did.

Younger than me. You probably find that a joke that I would worry about that. But all of my colleagues did.

And now none of us do.

And now none of us do.

My hope is that in health care.

My hope is that in health care.

Access is something that is of humorous.

Access is something that is of humorous.

Historical concern.

Historical concern.

And I think that we can do that. And, you know, we've got the.

And I think that we can do that. And, you know, we've got the.

Technologies we have to get organized.

Technologies we have to get organized.

To use.

To use.

The technologies and.

The technologies and.

So that someday not too far away, you won't have to talk to a human.

So that someday not too far away, you won't have to talk to a human.

Being to make an appointment and you'll be able to get the appointment where you want, when you want, and your questions answered without an.

Being to make an appointment and you'll be able to get the appointment where you want, when you want, and your questions answered without an.

Appointment. I appreciate that. And and it may surprise you. I remember those days. Actually, there is a I have to frequently explain to my children what life was like and a more analog world, and that was definitely part of it. So that's fantastic. Thanks so much. And with that, that's a wrap for this episode. I've had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Thomas Lee from Press. Danny, thanks so much for joining us today.

Appointment. I appreciate that. And and it may surprise you. I remember those days. Actually, there is a I have to frequently explain to my children what life was like and a more analog world, and that was definitely part of it. So that's fantastic. Thanks so much. And with that, that's a wrap for this episode. I've had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Thomas Lee from Press. Danny, thanks so much for joining us today.

It's my great.

It's my great.

Pleasure.

Pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard, please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in for all the awesomeness, then leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by Shift Forward Health The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app and you'll be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember, we might have a lot of work to do in health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.

Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard, please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in for all the awesomeness, then leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by Shift Forward Health The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app and you'll be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember, we might have a lot of work to do in health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.