Get a team. Welcome back to the show.

Get a team. Welcome back to the show.

This is Wrong with the Punches podcast and I'm your host, Tif Cook and today we are talking all things digital well being with the brilliant Bailey Parnell. Because let's be real, tech and AI is impacting how we do life, our mental health, our decision making, our emotional intelligence, and honestly, we've got to get on the front foot because if we don't control it, it will and already is controlling us. So buckle up, grab a coffee and tune in. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au.

This is Wrong with the Punches podcast and I'm your host, Tif Cook and today we are talking all things digital well being with the brilliant Bailey Parnell. Because let's be real, tech and AI is impacting how we do life, our mental health, our decision making, our emotional intelligence, and honestly, we've got to get on the front foot because if we don't control it, it will and already is controlling us. So buckle up, grab a coffee and tune in. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au.

Bailey Parnell, Welcome to Roll with the Punches. I'd gad to be here.

Bailey Parnell, Welcome to Roll with the Punches. I'd gad to be here.

I'm glad you're here too, although I'm sweltering because my fan just switched off and has no battery.

I'm glad you're here too, although I'm sweltering because my fan just switched off and has no battery.

Left in it.

Left in it.

My new little desk fan, and you've got a beautiful turtleneck jumper on. But it's making me feel even hotter. So you know when you put one of those like the TV screens with a fire on it by a place, not just a raging fire, but a fireplace, and you immediate, what I do, I feel warmer.

My new little desk fan, and you've got a beautiful turtleneck jumper on. But it's making me feel even hotter. So you know when you put one of those like the TV screens with a fire on it by a place, not just a raging fire, but a fireplace, and you immediate, what I do, I feel warmer.

You're doing that to me, and it's now I don't need that today. Well, I'm in in New York City right now and we just got five centimeters of snow, so you can take some about it. He's like the world, it's going to be more opposite right now? Could they exactly?

You're doing that to me, and it's now I don't need that today. Well, I'm in in New York City right now and we just got five centimeters of snow, so you can take some about it. He's like the world, it's going to be more opposite right now? Could they exactly?

It's not even the same day, which is weird, which always steal four years down the track of having conversations with people on the other side of the globe, I still go, how I couldn't like, you're not here yet, you haven't reached Tuesday.

It's not even the same day, which is weird, which always steal four years down the track of having conversations with people on the other side of the globe, I still go, how I couldn't like, you're not here yet, you haven't reached Tuesday.

Yeah, that's right. It is Monday evening where I am right now, and this will be my last thing of the day, so.

Yeah, that's right. It is Monday evening where I am right now, and this will be my last thing of the day, so.

Lucky mew ah, there you go. How would you introduce yourself to people into now? I stumbled across you in the field of looking at digital well being and social media and mental health and stuff. And I realized that you did a talk on that, and that was seven years ago, seven.

Lucky mew ah, there you go. How would you introduce yourself to people into now? I stumbled across you in the field of looking at digital well being and social media and mental health and stuff. And I realized that you did a talk on that, and that was seven years ago, seven.

Years while ago. Now that came out in twenty seventeen, and I feel like there can be a whole entire extension talk these days, of course, although it's only become more relevant, not less. So I stand by what I said then too.

Years while ago. Now that came out in twenty seventeen, and I feel like there can be a whole entire extension talk these days, of course, although it's only become more relevant, not less. So I stand by what I said then too.

One d P. Do you feel like do you look back at that and think like, I can't even remember what twenty and seventeen was really like in the landscape then, But I imagine, yeah, would do you roll your eyes and go I told you, I told you were heading here?

One d P. Do you feel like do you look back at that and think like, I can't even remember what twenty and seventeen was really like in the landscape then, But I imagine, yeah, would do you roll your eyes and go I told you, I told you were heading here?

No, I mean any sage would just say, you know, I will tell you, and I'll continue to tell you and will help you arrive at this conclusion on your own, hopefully you know before it does any more harm to yourself or your communities. But how I introduce myself changes. My main day to day is actually that I own a soft skills and leadership development company called skills Camp, and that would be working with organizations and educational institutions all over the globe. Actually, we have a few facilitators in Australia and a few clients over there as well, and we would work with them to build skills like emotional intelligence or communication or really all sorts of things, a lot of leadership stuff. And then the other half of my life, as you noted, is in the world of digital well being, which started and social media's impact on mental health, but then over the last decade kind of expanded beyond social media to other forms of technology and how we interface with this stuff, and then even beyond mental health to things like how does this stuff affect our overall wellbeing, our governments, from politics, polarization, how does it affect really every part of human welfare? And that field of digital well being just really wasn't a field in the way that it is now thirty years ago. So it's kind of emerging in my lifetime, which is very cool to be at what I would consider the forefront of some of this stuff. If you were to put a blanket statement over.

No, I mean any sage would just say, you know, I will tell you, and I'll continue to tell you and will help you arrive at this conclusion on your own, hopefully you know before it does any more harm to yourself or your communities. But how I introduce myself changes. My main day to day is actually that I own a soft skills and leadership development company called skills Camp, and that would be working with organizations and educational institutions all over the globe. Actually, we have a few facilitators in Australia and a few clients over there as well, and we would work with them to build skills like emotional intelligence or communication or really all sorts of things, a lot of leadership stuff. And then the other half of my life, as you noted, is in the world of digital well being, which started and social media's impact on mental health, but then over the last decade kind of expanded beyond social media to other forms of technology and how we interface with this stuff, and then even beyond mental health to things like how does this stuff affect our overall wellbeing, our governments, from politics, polarization, how does it affect really every part of human welfare? And that field of digital well being just really wasn't a field in the way that it is now thirty years ago. So it's kind of emerging in my lifetime, which is very cool to be at what I would consider the forefront of some of this stuff. If you were to put a blanket statement over.

Social media, and I guess social media and AI as a whole to humanity goodle bad.

Social media, and I guess social media and AI as a whole to humanity goodle bad.

That's a tough question. It depends who you ask, But yeah, I did not mention that. I forgot to mention that I'm also a doctor right now, and I also study how AI and how leaders can use AI for more human centric leadership. So I would say with AI, it's still very early, but it has the potential to be revolutionarily positive or negative depending on how you know we humans are about to use this tool. And social media is a tough one because it is it's if you ask most adults, they're they're gonna say negative. Like if you ask probably like thirty, maybe not thirty, but maybe thirty five and older, they will often say, oh, social media in a hole, worse offt for humanity. But if you ask maybe thirty and younger, they actually just don't know life without social media there will. I mean, what's twenty two thousand and four is when the first started coming out and then we start reaching like proliferation in two thousand and nine and twenty eleven is when Instagram came out. And so now we're talking about people for whom if you said, with social media good or bad for the world, they'd be like, it's neutral. Like they it's like asking you, like was the TV good or bad? Like they'd be saying, like, it's not, it's just life. Like sometimes it's really good. Sometimes I am learning and I connect with friends and I find people I didn't even know existed. And then sometimes it really sucks and I see that I didn't want to see and I'm being bullied, and so it is. It can be the best thing really for someone if they are extremely intentional. And I do know people and I did have people in my master's research for whom social media did improve their mental health. So there was very specific things that were going on though, and that's what I was interested in finding out, is what needs to happen for it to improve well being, that is all all, not considering the many layers of this, and one of those layers is what's happening on a government and company level right now. So yeah, yeah, the lot.

That's a tough question. It depends who you ask, But yeah, I did not mention that. I forgot to mention that I'm also a doctor right now, and I also study how AI and how leaders can use AI for more human centric leadership. So I would say with AI, it's still very early, but it has the potential to be revolutionarily positive or negative depending on how you know we humans are about to use this tool. And social media is a tough one because it is it's if you ask most adults, they're they're gonna say negative. Like if you ask probably like thirty, maybe not thirty, but maybe thirty five and older, they will often say, oh, social media in a hole, worse offt for humanity. But if you ask maybe thirty and younger, they actually just don't know life without social media there will. I mean, what's twenty two thousand and four is when the first started coming out and then we start reaching like proliferation in two thousand and nine and twenty eleven is when Instagram came out. And so now we're talking about people for whom if you said, with social media good or bad for the world, they'd be like, it's neutral. Like they it's like asking you, like was the TV good or bad? Like they'd be saying, like, it's not, it's just life. Like sometimes it's really good. Sometimes I am learning and I connect with friends and I find people I didn't even know existed. And then sometimes it really sucks and I see that I didn't want to see and I'm being bullied, and so it is. It can be the best thing really for someone if they are extremely intentional. And I do know people and I did have people in my master's research for whom social media did improve their mental health. So there was very specific things that were going on though, and that's what I was interested in finding out, is what needs to happen for it to improve well being, that is all all, not considering the many layers of this, and one of those layers is what's happening on a government and company level right now. So yeah, yeah, the lot.

Yeah, sometimes I just feel like when it comes to tech and socials in all of that, and yeah, I just it fatigues my brain. I'm like, I don't want to play this. I didn't ask to be a part of this game. I don't want to be a part of this mind these mind games in psychology, and I don't want to know. I just want to, you know, to leave my life in my bubble that's now extended to everybody's bubble because we're all connected.

Yeah, sometimes I just feel like when it comes to tech and socials in all of that, and yeah, I just it fatigues my brain. I'm like, I don't want to play this. I didn't ask to be a part of this game. I don't want to be a part of this mind these mind games in psychology, and I don't want to know. I just want to, you know, to leave my life in my bubble that's now extended to everybody's bubble because we're all connected.

Well, you are welcome to So the question would be why don't you That's a great question. Can you answer that for me? Because there are consequences for non participation, right, I mean it's not just like the consequences for not participating in social media might be something like we're not doing this thing called the podcast right now, and you didn't find me on YouTube and we weren't connected over something positive, and that's the good side of it. There's also you know, I get business through being present online and my public speaking is built through my online presence. But I'm very intentional. I think you are too, about trying to make our digital presences very positive places like we work to make them good digital environments for people who interact with us via digital and so there are consequences for not participating, and those consequences are probably strengthened the younger you go. So when people want to say like, oh my gosh, just get off Instagram to a fourteen year old, well, there are consequences. Even if they decided to never be on well, they're going to miss things that happen they're not going to be part of, like DM chats, they're going to miss that meme, like all these sorts of things, right, So, just like as as an adult, you're kind of weighing out the benefits and the risks, and you're doing more of a risk mitigation exercise. I would say when I think about it sometimes, like as you're talking and I'm thinking about the evolution and earlier which I love to speak about. You mentioned briefly, I can't remember it was before or after a hit record, but that you work with leaders now on helping them with AI to develop emotional intelligence, and my mind went to a place of thinking, what's interesting is we have chased and developed this incredible technology to have information at our fingertips, and we've gone full circle where we now have to go and seek the information and learn the skills for the things that used to naturally occur in us to keep us as healthy, functioning humans in societies like how well, I would argue they weren't being taught actually, because the whole reason that I started Skills Camp was before public release of Generative AI. I launched this company back in the beginning of twenty sixteen. And you know what, I gotta say, there's a lot of other training companies in the space that existed long before us, And probably part of the reason was because when we're talking about skills like emotional intelligence, as you noted, and what's contained in their self awareness and social awareness and relationship management and self regulation, and then things like communication, concise communication, persuasive, inclusive, whatever kind of communication you want, and then emotional regulation in public speaking, and all these skills that are on the list, these are often the most important when it comes to I think, being a healthy person, but also relating to other people. And then quite literally, when I started this back in Canada, it was commun ability to work well with others and communication skills were literally the top two skills looked for in job postings across Canada. But I was working in a higher ed institution in student affairs at the time, which is kind of everything outside the classroom, and it was very clear that this was not being taught in the classroom. So you had a generation, I mean every generation before the current generation of people were not taught things like understanding your emotions or being able to communicate them, or resolve conflicts or give feedback or all these things we expect from people in the workplace, and then you're not taught in school, and then you're not taught in onboarding programs, and then maybe you're lucky if a workplace invests in it. So part of skills camp existing was like, well, maybe we should teach this because there are parts of it that actually can be taught. And for example, someone listening right now didn't even know that there were parts of emotional intelligence that self awareness was one of those components that you can build dependent of us being there with you. But a lot of people just need to be guided on it, right, So so you're right, we do have this technology that helps us guide this information, but it can also any AI can support. Here's what I really think, any any application of human intelligence that we have used thus far, AI will or already is supporting any application of human intelligence that means every industry, that means every kind of skill, means skills development, you name it. How did you?

Well, you are welcome to So the question would be why don't you That's a great question. Can you answer that for me? Because there are consequences for non participation, right, I mean it's not just like the consequences for not participating in social media might be something like we're not doing this thing called the podcast right now, and you didn't find me on YouTube and we weren't connected over something positive, and that's the good side of it. There's also you know, I get business through being present online and my public speaking is built through my online presence. But I'm very intentional. I think you are too, about trying to make our digital presences very positive places like we work to make them good digital environments for people who interact with us via digital and so there are consequences for not participating, and those consequences are probably strengthened the younger you go. So when people want to say like, oh my gosh, just get off Instagram to a fourteen year old, well, there are consequences. Even if they decided to never be on well, they're going to miss things that happen they're not going to be part of, like DM chats, they're going to miss that meme, like all these sorts of things, right, So, just like as as an adult, you're kind of weighing out the benefits and the risks, and you're doing more of a risk mitigation exercise. I would say when I think about it sometimes, like as you're talking and I'm thinking about the evolution and earlier which I love to speak about. You mentioned briefly, I can't remember it was before or after a hit record, but that you work with leaders now on helping them with AI to develop emotional intelligence, and my mind went to a place of thinking, what's interesting is we have chased and developed this incredible technology to have information at our fingertips, and we've gone full circle where we now have to go and seek the information and learn the skills for the things that used to naturally occur in us to keep us as healthy, functioning humans in societies like how well, I would argue they weren't being taught actually, because the whole reason that I started Skills Camp was before public release of Generative AI. I launched this company back in the beginning of twenty sixteen. And you know what, I gotta say, there's a lot of other training companies in the space that existed long before us, And probably part of the reason was because when we're talking about skills like emotional intelligence, as you noted, and what's contained in their self awareness and social awareness and relationship management and self regulation, and then things like communication, concise communication, persuasive, inclusive, whatever kind of communication you want, and then emotional regulation in public speaking, and all these skills that are on the list, these are often the most important when it comes to I think, being a healthy person, but also relating to other people. And then quite literally, when I started this back in Canada, it was commun ability to work well with others and communication skills were literally the top two skills looked for in job postings across Canada. But I was working in a higher ed institution in student affairs at the time, which is kind of everything outside the classroom, and it was very clear that this was not being taught in the classroom. So you had a generation, I mean every generation before the current generation of people were not taught things like understanding your emotions or being able to communicate them, or resolve conflicts or give feedback or all these things we expect from people in the workplace, and then you're not taught in school, and then you're not taught in onboarding programs, and then maybe you're lucky if a workplace invests in it. So part of skills camp existing was like, well, maybe we should teach this because there are parts of it that actually can be taught. And for example, someone listening right now didn't even know that there were parts of emotional intelligence that self awareness was one of those components that you can build dependent of us being there with you. But a lot of people just need to be guided on it, right, So so you're right, we do have this technology that helps us guide this information, but it can also any AI can support. Here's what I really think, any any application of human intelligence that we have used thus far, AI will or already is supporting any application of human intelligence that means every industry, that means every kind of skill, means skills development, you name it. How did you?

How did you How easy was it to launch that as a business into like was that an easy or hard sell? How did you have to go in and pitch to mate companies that I guess are looking at bottom line and things go hey, I'm going to teach you your people, how to people better?

How did you How easy was it to launch that as a business into like was that an easy or hard sell? How did you have to go in and pitch to mate companies that I guess are looking at bottom line and things go hey, I'm going to teach you your people, how to people better?

Yeah, you know, it's a good question because we for a long time we're saying still say like, you know, we're a soft skills training company, but even the phrase soft skills is kind of we're the first to know, it's hotly debated in the industry. Like people who work in this space don't love the phrase soft skills because they're often harder for people than technical skills. But then there's lots of age, you know, transferable skills, twenty first century skills, power skills, you name it. And it's been interesting to see since twenty sixteen that there have been more popular skills that get us in the door. And it's and there's been waves. So for example, in the first couple of years of Skills Camp, it was like twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen era, there was a lot of focus on things like personal branding and communications, public speaking and networking like these were we were brought in a lot for those ones. Then we had a shift in the pandemic. Of course, everything was focused on well being and inclusion, so things like reszild stress management, like stress management, it was probably doing one like I mean, I can't even count the number during the pandemic, and then there's a shift right now even to things that have to do with any element of navigating change. And of course leadership is a big thing that we do as well, but that kind of includes every skill. So if it's done well and to your point, trying to go in and sell companies on soft skills in general, we were lucky because most of our business comes through like a contact form or referral or repeat, but there's something important there. It means that people were searching it. And if they're not coming to us for a specific skill like the popular ones that I named, like they really are like oh my people need to do some work on resilience or another one right now that's coming up a lot is peak performance or productivity and time management, but from a place from our perspective of it being like a holistic time, energy and attention thing. And so they're either coming to us for a specific skill or or they have a key person usually in hr IS that knows what soft skills are, knows their people need them whether they know it or not, and is willing to invest in them. That's probably a commonality amongst most of our clients. Is that it just comes down to one person knowing what they are, even if the teams are serving don't. Something that I think in most recent.

Yeah, you know, it's a good question because we for a long time we're saying still say like, you know, we're a soft skills training company, but even the phrase soft skills is kind of we're the first to know, it's hotly debated in the industry. Like people who work in this space don't love the phrase soft skills because they're often harder for people than technical skills. But then there's lots of age, you know, transferable skills, twenty first century skills, power skills, you name it. And it's been interesting to see since twenty sixteen that there have been more popular skills that get us in the door. And it's and there's been waves. So for example, in the first couple of years of Skills Camp, it was like twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen era, there was a lot of focus on things like personal branding and communications, public speaking and networking like these were we were brought in a lot for those ones. Then we had a shift in the pandemic. Of course, everything was focused on well being and inclusion, so things like reszild stress management, like stress management, it was probably doing one like I mean, I can't even count the number during the pandemic, and then there's a shift right now even to things that have to do with any element of navigating change. And of course leadership is a big thing that we do as well, but that kind of includes every skill. So if it's done well and to your point, trying to go in and sell companies on soft skills in general, we were lucky because most of our business comes through like a contact form or referral or repeat, but there's something important there. It means that people were searching it. And if they're not coming to us for a specific skill like the popular ones that I named, like they really are like oh my people need to do some work on resilience or another one right now that's coming up a lot is peak performance or productivity and time management, but from a place from our perspective of it being like a holistic time, energy and attention thing. And so they're either coming to us for a specific skill or or they have a key person usually in hr IS that knows what soft skills are, knows their people need them whether they know it or not, and is willing to invest in them. That's probably a commonality amongst most of our clients. Is that it just comes down to one person knowing what they are, even if the teams are serving don't. Something that I think in most recent.

Years of looking at leadership and leadership programs from the outside looking in, Like I used to work how long ago, it's two thousand and fifteen, I think I quit my job and started working for myself. So I left the corporate world. I left business, and I started and I started just to bet, and then I moved into a bunch of other stuff. But I think I look now at people in my network who are rolling out corporate leadership training and it's and I was like, oh, this isn't just the same stuff. This is just teaching people how to understand themselves better so they have me in great relationships and communicate better with out the people. But it's you know, I'm like, oh, this is the same stuff that I'm teaching people my coaching clients that have got nothing that sometimes have nothing to do with business.

Years of looking at leadership and leadership programs from the outside looking in, Like I used to work how long ago, it's two thousand and fifteen, I think I quit my job and started working for myself. So I left the corporate world. I left business, and I started and I started just to bet, and then I moved into a bunch of other stuff. But I think I look now at people in my network who are rolling out corporate leadership training and it's and I was like, oh, this isn't just the same stuff. This is just teaching people how to understand themselves better so they have me in great relationships and communicate better with out the people. But it's you know, I'm like, oh, this is the same stuff that I'm teaching people my coaching clients that have got nothing that sometimes have nothing to do with business.

That's right. I mean. My perspective on leadership is that it is an overlapping journey of leadership of self, leadership of others, and leadership of organizations, which creates leadership of societies and systems and leadership of self is exactly is exactly what you've noted there. It's can you even conduct yourself? Do you even know yourself yet? Can you set goals? Can you meet those goals? Can you, you know, be resilient when things get in the way of those goals? Can you be adaptable? I mean all this stuff is just starting with you. Can you set your own calendar? And then only then can you move out to can you actually lead others? And it's amazing not a good way, but it is. It is like awesome in a bad way. About how many leaders become people leaders, usually simply because they were good at the thing that they and now they're leading the team. But anyone listening who's ever had a boss knows that what made their best boss was not that they were the good coder or they were the one that made the cars the fastest. It was the minute you become a people leader, almost all of your job is completely different set of skills, and the majority of people leaders never have any leadership training. Yeah, yeah, it's actually wild, Like it gets me riled up, Tiffany, because because your direct boss, for anyone listening, your direct manager or your direct boss has up through I think it's like seventy eight percent of the variance of how engaged you are at work is contributed to your direct boss. Now, this is how engaged you are at work, which is theoretically half of your waking life can come down to one person. And this person is very likely it's very likely they have never had any leadership training. I mean literally, like I'm not exaggerating at all. It's one of those things where again, you may have been promoted because you applied and because you were really good at something, and maybe you even were a project manager in the past, or you were a director, but maybe you didn't have direct reports so you weren't responsible for people, and so there can be all these ways that you lead, but it is not a people leader, even though they have so much influence, most especially middle management, on how people feel about their actual lives. Is there a patent in what tends to happen in that case, because I'm just thinking, you know, you're taking someone who's been likely been exceptional in what I do and competent and knows it and therefore has great relationships with people because they don't have to think we'll worry you'll be stressed, and then they put into a whole different skill set and you don't know what you don't know. So they know that they're probably not comfortable there, but they don't know how shit they are. And then I imagine it's true some of them do a lot of them don't.

That's right. I mean. My perspective on leadership is that it is an overlapping journey of leadership of self, leadership of others, and leadership of organizations, which creates leadership of societies and systems and leadership of self is exactly is exactly what you've noted there. It's can you even conduct yourself? Do you even know yourself yet? Can you set goals? Can you meet those goals? Can you, you know, be resilient when things get in the way of those goals? Can you be adaptable? I mean all this stuff is just starting with you. Can you set your own calendar? And then only then can you move out to can you actually lead others? And it's amazing not a good way, but it is. It is like awesome in a bad way. About how many leaders become people leaders, usually simply because they were good at the thing that they and now they're leading the team. But anyone listening who's ever had a boss knows that what made their best boss was not that they were the good coder or they were the one that made the cars the fastest. It was the minute you become a people leader, almost all of your job is completely different set of skills, and the majority of people leaders never have any leadership training. Yeah, yeah, it's actually wild, Like it gets me riled up, Tiffany, because because your direct boss, for anyone listening, your direct manager or your direct boss has up through I think it's like seventy eight percent of the variance of how engaged you are at work is contributed to your direct boss. Now, this is how engaged you are at work, which is theoretically half of your waking life can come down to one person. And this person is very likely it's very likely they have never had any leadership training. I mean literally, like I'm not exaggerating at all. It's one of those things where again, you may have been promoted because you applied and because you were really good at something, and maybe you even were a project manager in the past, or you were a director, but maybe you didn't have direct reports so you weren't responsible for people, and so there can be all these ways that you lead, but it is not a people leader, even though they have so much influence, most especially middle management, on how people feel about their actual lives. Is there a patent in what tends to happen in that case, because I'm just thinking, you know, you're taking someone who's been likely been exceptional in what I do and competent and knows it and therefore has great relationships with people because they don't have to think we'll worry you'll be stressed, and then they put into a whole different skill set and you don't know what you don't know. So they know that they're probably not comfortable there, but they don't know how shit they are. And then I imagine it's true some of them do a lot of them don't.

Yeah, like and then they build a persona of like, well, I'll just fake it till I make it and probably turn into a completely like is there a pattern and what's the first thing that you're going to knock out from under them to get things rolling in the right direction.

Yeah, like and then they build a persona of like, well, I'll just fake it till I make it and probably turn into a completely like is there a pattern and what's the first thing that you're going to knock out from under them to get things rolling in the right direction.

For me, there's like different changes. There's a paradigm level, and then there's almost organizational level, and then there's things that we can control. And from a paradigm level, I wish that it was. I wish that people leadership was understood as like an honorable thing like it used to be. I think ages ago, Like if you study leaders from even centuries past, to be a leader of people, whether it was a faith leader or a politician, like it was an honorable thing and it was. But part of that honor came the response ability of the fact that you are going to have to guide other people in their lives towards goals, and like with that seriousness, you approached it with that seriousness. And so even back to like Alexander the Great having Aristotle as as a sage is because it was understood that if you lead people, you also need to be taught. And so there's a paradigm level, because paradigm would mean, oh, I'm a people leader. Now, oh now I have to take this seriously, like there's things that even my company might not offer me, but I better go learn it myself. On an organizational level, I wish that, you know, it was not even an option, Like if you were promoted to a people leader job, there's obviously at least some module like hey, here's something like here's you know, here's how your job will likely change. You are probably going to have to give feedback that you don't like to people that you once managed. You know, here, here's some strategies you might use, or here's what you might do in the first sixty days if you are managing a team of of people that you used to work alongside, like these kinds of stuff you might be coaching your own coaches on. But then you you know, just expand to like millions of people that are promoted to people leadership, and not everyone has a personal coach. And then there's leadership of self of course, as we as we were talking about, and there there are things like with the minute I have become a people leader, now you know my leadership perspective matters. And the way that most people learn their leadership you asked, you know, is there a trend? The trend is that most people learn their leadership from leaders they've had in the past. Literally that easy like leaders they've had, and that is not always a good thing, had a good lead, gosh, because and even if it comes to like discipline, even if they didn't like the way that the leader did it before, maybe they just don't know another way and so they're like, well, okay, like I guess that's just how you do it. And so the examples not only might might they not be good. Let's say you did have an amazing leader, but it was twenty years ago. Then there's skills we're talking about, which is like, how has the context changed? And you may have had a good leader that didn't know anything about mental health. Well, now in Australia you don't have a choice legally you have to create an environment that promotes psychological safety. That's true about your laws. That doesn't even exist here yet. So couldn't you imagine your framework of leadership was something from twenty years ago? Yeah, yeah, I take it very seriously, as you can tell. But I don't even fault. I don't even fault people, really, because how are you supposed to know? You know, every industry needs leaders, but very very few people went to school for leadership. They probably went to school for the industry in which they are working. And somewhere along the way, you need to learn to be a good leader. And I believe in skilled leader, so you can learn skills along the way that make you a good leader. But then sometimes you don't even realize you have those skills. Like sometimes people are really good at like communicating ideas and they don't realize, Like that's a skill of a good leader's ability to communicate things in a way people understand. Yeah.

For me, there's like different changes. There's a paradigm level, and then there's almost organizational level, and then there's things that we can control. And from a paradigm level, I wish that it was. I wish that people leadership was understood as like an honorable thing like it used to be. I think ages ago, Like if you study leaders from even centuries past, to be a leader of people, whether it was a faith leader or a politician, like it was an honorable thing and it was. But part of that honor came the response ability of the fact that you are going to have to guide other people in their lives towards goals, and like with that seriousness, you approached it with that seriousness. And so even back to like Alexander the Great having Aristotle as as a sage is because it was understood that if you lead people, you also need to be taught. And so there's a paradigm level, because paradigm would mean, oh, I'm a people leader. Now, oh now I have to take this seriously, like there's things that even my company might not offer me, but I better go learn it myself. On an organizational level, I wish that, you know, it was not even an option, Like if you were promoted to a people leader job, there's obviously at least some module like hey, here's something like here's you know, here's how your job will likely change. You are probably going to have to give feedback that you don't like to people that you once managed. You know, here, here's some strategies you might use, or here's what you might do in the first sixty days if you are managing a team of of people that you used to work alongside, like these kinds of stuff you might be coaching your own coaches on. But then you you know, just expand to like millions of people that are promoted to people leadership, and not everyone has a personal coach. And then there's leadership of self of course, as we as we were talking about, and there there are things like with the minute I have become a people leader, now you know my leadership perspective matters. And the way that most people learn their leadership you asked, you know, is there a trend? The trend is that most people learn their leadership from leaders they've had in the past. Literally that easy like leaders they've had, and that is not always a good thing, had a good lead, gosh, because and even if it comes to like discipline, even if they didn't like the way that the leader did it before, maybe they just don't know another way and so they're like, well, okay, like I guess that's just how you do it. And so the examples not only might might they not be good. Let's say you did have an amazing leader, but it was twenty years ago. Then there's skills we're talking about, which is like, how has the context changed? And you may have had a good leader that didn't know anything about mental health. Well, now in Australia you don't have a choice legally you have to create an environment that promotes psychological safety. That's true about your laws. That doesn't even exist here yet. So couldn't you imagine your framework of leadership was something from twenty years ago? Yeah, yeah, I take it very seriously, as you can tell. But I don't even fault. I don't even fault people, really, because how are you supposed to know? You know, every industry needs leaders, but very very few people went to school for leadership. They probably went to school for the industry in which they are working. And somewhere along the way, you need to learn to be a good leader. And I believe in skilled leader, so you can learn skills along the way that make you a good leader. But then sometimes you don't even realize you have those skills. Like sometimes people are really good at like communicating ideas and they don't realize, Like that's a skill of a good leader's ability to communicate things in a way people understand. Yeah.

Just thinking about previous bosses and leaders I've had in my workplaces, and the only memories that stand out to me that I can even vividly think of are the ones who went out of their way. And it surprised me that just went out of their way to always ask how I was and ask about my life. Yeah, so the ones that kind of took an interest in some sort of a you know, like just you're not just a number, like how is you weak?

Just thinking about previous bosses and leaders I've had in my workplaces, and the only memories that stand out to me that I can even vividly think of are the ones who went out of their way. And it surprised me that just went out of their way to always ask how I was and ask about my life. Yeah, so the ones that kind of took an interest in some sort of a you know, like just you're not just a number, like how is you weak?

And how's you Dave?

And how's you Dave?

And sometimes there was one in particular, and I was like, I kind of know you're deliberately doing that, But whether or not you're deliberately doing it, it still still sits well with me, like are you making an effort with the right intention? And that's interesting because that's years in, that's block decades of memories there, and there's lots of interactions and they're the ones I remember, and actually I have really fond memories of working with those people.

And sometimes there was one in particular, and I was like, I kind of know you're deliberately doing that, But whether or not you're deliberately doing it, it still still sits well with me, like are you making an effort with the right intention? And that's interesting because that's years in, that's block decades of memories there, and there's lots of interactions and they're the ones I remember, and actually I have really fond memories of working with those people.

Yes, no, I respect that too because if they said if they were doing it on purpose, good because they have decided that part of their job is to know how are my people doing? Like I guess that's probably a good thing, right because for example, at the beginning of my one on ones, there's always three things that happen on every agenda, there's feedback, there's personal check ins, feedback for you and feedback for me on everyone. And the personal check ins, though is not is strategic too, right, because strategic in terms of communication a strategy that serves both them and me. Because let's say I want to give someone negative feedback, but we've just caught up and I just found out that they have been to a funeral the day before and someone really close to them past. It's actually not strategic for me. Maybe it's not the right word. It's not even compassionate. It's not even wise as a leader to deliver that in the moment because it may not be received and the behavior changed in the way that I need because of the frame wing that I just understood. So personal check ins is, like, I actually do think as part of a leader's job to know how you're doing, but it's also in the best interest of the goals of the organization. I'm interested, who are your bad bosses? What did they do? I feel like I probably didn't end up working for them because I didn't like in the first place, you just left it. Yeah, yeah, there you go, yeah exactly.

Yes, no, I respect that too because if they said if they were doing it on purpose, good because they have decided that part of their job is to know how are my people doing? Like I guess that's probably a good thing, right because for example, at the beginning of my one on ones, there's always three things that happen on every agenda, there's feedback, there's personal check ins, feedback for you and feedback for me on everyone. And the personal check ins, though is not is strategic too, right, because strategic in terms of communication a strategy that serves both them and me. Because let's say I want to give someone negative feedback, but we've just caught up and I just found out that they have been to a funeral the day before and someone really close to them past. It's actually not strategic for me. Maybe it's not the right word. It's not even compassionate. It's not even wise as a leader to deliver that in the moment because it may not be received and the behavior changed in the way that I need because of the frame wing that I just understood. So personal check ins is, like, I actually do think as part of a leader's job to know how you're doing, but it's also in the best interest of the goals of the organization. I'm interested, who are your bad bosses? What did they do? I feel like I probably didn't end up working for them because I didn't like in the first place, you just left it. Yeah, yeah, there you go, yeah exactly.

Like I'm like, Oh, anywhere I spent a fair amount of time, I like those. I mean, I can recall moments where there wasn't great ladyship with former bosses and in this, Well, they didn't actually come actually.

Like I'm like, Oh, anywhere I spent a fair amount of time, I like those. I mean, I can recall moments where there wasn't great ladyship with former bosses and in this, Well, they didn't actually come actually.

Come to mind at all.

Come to mind at all.

When I was filing through before you asked about bad bosses, and I was like, what, I don't have any Oh.

When I was filing through before you asked about bad bosses, and I was like, what, I don't have any Oh.

Yeah I do.

Yeah I do.

They just didn't come to mind because I don't have fun memories of themselves throwing in.

They just didn't come to mind because I don't have fun memories of themselves throwing in.

The back of on the line. We've gotten rid of that. Yeah, bug of that. I don't want to amul like that.

The back of on the line. We've gotten rid of that. Yeah, bug of that. I don't want to amul like that.

How does the aipply into these like how we how I am lend self scales from ah so facial intelligence?

How does the aipply into these like how we how I am lend self scales from ah so facial intelligence?

Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah, do you know what? Sometimes though, sometimes AI is better at it than some humans, I tell you so. So the way I think about AI is ish. I sometimes call it collected intelligence instead. It's not collective yet because it's not a reflection of everyone yet, but it is collected. And for all of human history, we you can actually argue we're successful as a species because we were able to collect intelligence and share it with other humans, whether that was on a stone tablet or a book or a computer, and pass it along. And so AI is our best attempt at collecting this intellect and allowing other humans to to access it. And so if you think about it like this. Then it's a similar ethos to how I might approach a leadership textbook, or I might approach a book that inspires you from a leader that you followed your whole life, and you read it and you learned some strategies and this, that and the other thing. But the thing with AI is that you know what we said earlier about any use of human intelligence that we've had thus far can be in part supported by a collected version of that intelligence. So for skill building, let's say one of the things would we would teach, you know, teach you before AI, even before online learning in person if we wanted to, was a framework called the SBI a feedback model. So if this is not natural to you, how to deliver feedback, especially negative feedback, in a way that in a nice structure that focuses on the feedback and not on someone's character, and proposes an alternative and is specific about the behavior. And that the other thing we'll go through the you know, examples and all that with AI. We I mean, I don't know when this is coming out, but I'm actually co founding another company this year with some folks, which is an AI supported leadership development platform so I can tell you very firsthand that in the right moment when you're actually going to give that feedback, let's say it's over email, over chat, or you're going into that one on one I talked about and you don't know. You're like, this person's late repeatedly I know them from before. How do I word this that it can now, especially with what we're creating because it'll have leadership intelligence on top of a base large language model. It would be like asking a coach for the first draft, like right in the moment that you need it. And because we're able to put our own intelligence on top of a base language model, it would kind of be like having US coach you. So now you know. I always say, like, human judgment is narrative. Of course, I know the risks of AI just as much. Human judgment is very important. But for a first draft, for people who are definitely not taught leadership development, you could even say something like my employee is uh is of Indian descent and just moved here, and I want everyone to be giving feedback, but they never speak up in a meeting. Is there possibly other reasons, maybe cross cultural reasons, why this might happen? And we teach this in our cross cultural communication workshop. So if we can collect this intelligence for you all though all both of the examples, I just get sorry that I just gave pre Suppose that you know the right question to ask. Where AI is? Now? Though? Is AI? We're getting to a point where if you allow it and it can read your email even with safety, and you can set it up so that data and privacy and all that is very clear about where it's going. If it reads your email or it says, you know, you have a meeting coming up with Tiffany and you have you guys have both done your feedback assessments. Tiffany prefers to receive feedback. In this way, it can actually prompt you with the right question, would you like to know how to give this feedback? So this would be These are all examples of a way that AI could actually help you build a skill because once it as if it was like me giving you that model or me telling you how to write it, you might copy and paste it. You might copy and paste it three times, but then you're going to start you are the original intelligence, so you are going to start learning like, oh, this is the way that it worded it and then I read it and then I like edited it, and I'm starting to learn myself, how what would I be a better way to do this.

Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah, do you know what? Sometimes though, sometimes AI is better at it than some humans, I tell you so. So the way I think about AI is ish. I sometimes call it collected intelligence instead. It's not collective yet because it's not a reflection of everyone yet, but it is collected. And for all of human history, we you can actually argue we're successful as a species because we were able to collect intelligence and share it with other humans, whether that was on a stone tablet or a book or a computer, and pass it along. And so AI is our best attempt at collecting this intellect and allowing other humans to to access it. And so if you think about it like this. Then it's a similar ethos to how I might approach a leadership textbook, or I might approach a book that inspires you from a leader that you followed your whole life, and you read it and you learned some strategies and this, that and the other thing. But the thing with AI is that you know what we said earlier about any use of human intelligence that we've had thus far can be in part supported by a collected version of that intelligence. So for skill building, let's say one of the things would we would teach, you know, teach you before AI, even before online learning in person if we wanted to, was a framework called the SBI a feedback model. So if this is not natural to you, how to deliver feedback, especially negative feedback, in a way that in a nice structure that focuses on the feedback and not on someone's character, and proposes an alternative and is specific about the behavior. And that the other thing we'll go through the you know, examples and all that with AI. We I mean, I don't know when this is coming out, but I'm actually co founding another company this year with some folks, which is an AI supported leadership development platform so I can tell you very firsthand that in the right moment when you're actually going to give that feedback, let's say it's over email, over chat, or you're going into that one on one I talked about and you don't know. You're like, this person's late repeatedly I know them from before. How do I word this that it can now, especially with what we're creating because it'll have leadership intelligence on top of a base large language model. It would be like asking a coach for the first draft, like right in the moment that you need it. And because we're able to put our own intelligence on top of a base language model, it would kind of be like having US coach you. So now you know. I always say, like, human judgment is narrative. Of course, I know the risks of AI just as much. Human judgment is very important. But for a first draft, for people who are definitely not taught leadership development, you could even say something like my employee is uh is of Indian descent and just moved here, and I want everyone to be giving feedback, but they never speak up in a meeting. Is there possibly other reasons, maybe cross cultural reasons, why this might happen? And we teach this in our cross cultural communication workshop. So if we can collect this intelligence for you all though all both of the examples, I just get sorry that I just gave pre Suppose that you know the right question to ask. Where AI is? Now? Though? Is AI? We're getting to a point where if you allow it and it can read your email even with safety, and you can set it up so that data and privacy and all that is very clear about where it's going. If it reads your email or it says, you know, you have a meeting coming up with Tiffany and you have you guys have both done your feedback assessments. Tiffany prefers to receive feedback. In this way, it can actually prompt you with the right question, would you like to know how to give this feedback? So this would be These are all examples of a way that AI could actually help you build a skill because once it as if it was like me giving you that model or me telling you how to write it, you might copy and paste it. You might copy and paste it three times, but then you're going to start you are the original intelligence, so you are going to start learning like, oh, this is the way that it worded it and then I read it and then I like edited it, and I'm starting to learn myself, how what would I be a better way to do this.

It's a big thing allowing this type of intelligence to influence apps and now identity and as sense of self. Like I think about my interactions with chat jpata sometimes and I'll put things in and then I have this awareness on he Ti everything you put into there is going to be stored as as information about you and how you think and who you are and how you what you're curious about like it because you know, sometimes I'll ask it things to see what it knows about me, to see what I'm telling me and think of that, and then I and sometimes I look at the prompts that people, you know, they'll make the rounds where someone will go, oh, put this AI prompt in and then everything you see everybody doing it and spitting out the answer it gives them And it's just like we're we're allowing it to give to feedback to us sometimes an identity Like I remember there was one asking look at what what some some prompt around what might and I know about myself? And it was as though it was insanely like everyone kept sharing their thing because it was insanely positive. It was like everyone was a fucking superstar and what they did. And I was like, that's cool, but it's extremely biased for telling you you're amazing, Like what So I put it in and then I put in what we're where might my shortcomings be? Where might I have biased? I put some other little prompts to go, hey, how might this go against me? And then it it worded things differently and it pointed out other things. But I was like, we're allowed, you know, like, what's that? What does it do to our ego? What does it do to our understanding of who we are, what we know, how we are? And is it always going to be positive or could it run away with us?

It's a big thing allowing this type of intelligence to influence apps and now identity and as sense of self. Like I think about my interactions with chat jpata sometimes and I'll put things in and then I have this awareness on he Ti everything you put into there is going to be stored as as information about you and how you think and who you are and how you what you're curious about like it because you know, sometimes I'll ask it things to see what it knows about me, to see what I'm telling me and think of that, and then I and sometimes I look at the prompts that people, you know, they'll make the rounds where someone will go, oh, put this AI prompt in and then everything you see everybody doing it and spitting out the answer it gives them And it's just like we're we're allowing it to give to feedback to us sometimes an identity Like I remember there was one asking look at what what some some prompt around what might and I know about myself? And it was as though it was insanely like everyone kept sharing their thing because it was insanely positive. It was like everyone was a fucking superstar and what they did. And I was like, that's cool, but it's extremely biased for telling you you're amazing, Like what So I put it in and then I put in what we're where might my shortcomings be? Where might I have biased? I put some other little prompts to go, hey, how might this go against me? And then it it worded things differently and it pointed out other things. But I was like, we're allowed, you know, like, what's that? What does it do to our ego? What does it do to our understanding of who we are, what we know, how we are? And is it always going to be positive or could it run away with us?

Don't know? Of course it could. There's many risks to use, right, just like a social media there will be a risk mitigation. We're already past the point of no return if you ask me, I mean, like I have you know, it was the greatest teale of all. It's just I have family members who some might consider digitally illiterate, and they literally went from Facebook to chat GBT and skipped everything in between. And if they're using it, It's like, okay, the immediate you know, there's immediate value to this, and I just don't see us getting rid of some version of it ever again. But yeah, there's definitely going to come with some anthropological like studies, studies and observations over the next couple of decades. And the thing that I would be most tuned into even more so than I was before AI. And you and I are people that were tuned in before AI to self awareness and critical thinking. You know, who are you as you noted independent of social media? Right and comparing yourself to others? And what are the things that you're actually interested in? And how do you write? And does it matter to you how you write? Because for some people it might matter, you know that they handwrite, you know, a birthday card or an essay or a poem, but they just don't care how the email is worded because that's for function and that's you know, for productivity at work, and it's they don't see it that as an extension of their personal creative selves. But you have to have you know, that agency in yourself helps you use a tool better. And the other thing is I mentioned critical thinking, So I know I'm better at using AI than many people. And part of the reason is because I am a critical thinker independent of AI and a problem solver independent of AI. So when AI or you actually noted a piece of this too, which was if I'm not getting the response that I'm looking for, I am able to think, how do I prompt you in a different way or give you the context that you need to give me the answer that I need. That's critical thinking, right. What is not critical thinking is let me copy and paste the answer and I don't know if it was right or wrong, and I don't know if it's worded right or wrong. And that's where you're going to start, you know, that's where you see them. I can tell all the time when people have written something to me with AI, because I can tell. I can tell common syntax of AI. But I work with it a lot, and I also don't care. I trust that. I trust that unless it's like a creative work or something, that they have read it and decided that they agree with it. And this is what we're moving for.

Don't know? Of course it could. There's many risks to use, right, just like a social media there will be a risk mitigation. We're already past the point of no return if you ask me, I mean, like I have you know, it was the greatest teale of all. It's just I have family members who some might consider digitally illiterate, and they literally went from Facebook to chat GBT and skipped everything in between. And if they're using it, It's like, okay, the immediate you know, there's immediate value to this, and I just don't see us getting rid of some version of it ever again. But yeah, there's definitely going to come with some anthropological like studies, studies and observations over the next couple of decades. And the thing that I would be most tuned into even more so than I was before AI. And you and I are people that were tuned in before AI to self awareness and critical thinking. You know, who are you as you noted independent of social media? Right and comparing yourself to others? And what are the things that you're actually interested in? And how do you write? And does it matter to you how you write? Because for some people it might matter, you know that they handwrite, you know, a birthday card or an essay or a poem, but they just don't care how the email is worded because that's for function and that's you know, for productivity at work, and it's they don't see it that as an extension of their personal creative selves. But you have to have you know, that agency in yourself helps you use a tool better. And the other thing is I mentioned critical thinking, So I know I'm better at using AI than many people. And part of the reason is because I am a critical thinker independent of AI and a problem solver independent of AI. So when AI or you actually noted a piece of this too, which was if I'm not getting the response that I'm looking for, I am able to think, how do I prompt you in a different way or give you the context that you need to give me the answer that I need. That's critical thinking, right. What is not critical thinking is let me copy and paste the answer and I don't know if it was right or wrong, and I don't know if it's worded right or wrong. And that's where you're going to start, you know, that's where you see them. I can tell all the time when people have written something to me with AI, because I can tell. I can tell common syntax of AI. But I work with it a lot, and I also don't care. I trust that. I trust that unless it's like a creative work or something, that they have read it and decided that they agree with it. And this is what we're moving for.

Yeah, I just started between now or something. Yeah, I just started doing some work with a friend of mine. We're just doing some projects together on like creating ideas, idea creation and things like that specific to the work that we do, this speaking we do, and so just some different protocols. And the first day my brain hurt and I went, oh, like, I'm a creative in some ways, and I love writing and expressing and conversing and storytelling and thinking ideas and coming up with ideas.

Yeah, I just started between now or something. Yeah, I just started doing some work with a friend of mine. We're just doing some projects together on like creating ideas, idea creation and things like that specific to the work that we do, this speaking we do, and so just some different protocols. And the first day my brain hurt and I went, oh, like, I'm a creative in some ways, and I love writing and expressing and conversing and storytelling and thinking ideas and coming up with ideas.

I love that.

I love that.

But this way of sitting down with this specific set of rules in front of me to create, to go deeper into idea creation, AI felt stumped from it initially.

But this way of sitting down with this specific set of rules in front of me to create, to go deeper into idea creation, AI felt stumped from it initially.

It's like it's a practice.

It's like it's a practice.

I was like, oh, I haven't practiced idea generation like this, and this is a practice that I'll have to learn.

I was like, oh, I haven't practiced idea generation like this, and this is a practice that I'll have to learn.

And that was a bit confronting.

And that was a bit confronting.

And I feel like that's also what like, I'm a bit tentative to use AI all of the time to tidy up anything I want to quickly quickly generate because I have always loved expressing in my own words and way. And although you can teach AI to emulate that, and maybe sometimes it spits out something you know, Oh, that's that's better. It's always all that's better, But I can still tell that's not me, and I don't want to lose that part of me that does that innately self expression. I think it's a natural I mean it is, and it's extremely very natural human tendency spin around as long as forever. Not everybody has the same desire, though, it's interesting, like I think everybody needs to express. It's probably better for society that they figure out how they like to express or you know, whether that's writing or speaking or something and go play round of golf.

And I feel like that's also what like, I'm a bit tentative to use AI all of the time to tidy up anything I want to quickly quickly generate because I have always loved expressing in my own words and way. And although you can teach AI to emulate that, and maybe sometimes it spits out something you know, Oh, that's that's better. It's always all that's better, But I can still tell that's not me, and I don't want to lose that part of me that does that innately self expression. I think it's a natural I mean it is, and it's extremely very natural human tendency spin around as long as forever. Not everybody has the same desire, though, it's interesting, like I think everybody needs to express. It's probably better for society that they figure out how they like to express or you know, whether that's writing or speaking or something and go play round of golf.

I don't care, just get it out. But but you know, you taking pride in the way that you rate is it's probably not true for a lot of people. Yeah, it is interesting though, right because you are going to your creative and creatives are usually the best at the best at figuring out ways of using tools. What I would hope, you know, for my future kids who are not going to know a wife without AI. I am interested in, like how the same way we talked about how young people conceptualize social media as a neutral entity these days, and like, guess they have really good years and bad years with it. But even like twenty year olds right now, remember like really bad years, but then you know, maybe now they found book talk and just spend you know, a lot of time learning about books, right, so so the way that they conceptualize it differently than us. I'm interested in how people who are born right now, you know, without a world of AI or sorry, they will never know a world without AI. How will they conceptualize ideas and summaries and you know these things we had to do in school, which which strengthened critical thinking. I think it can be done because I even I could give you an exercise that would strengthen your critical thinking with AI. In fact, I would tell you to use AI would be like, think of something that what do you really like to do for fun? Let's let's learn Oh the I'm just top of mind. Like the elements of a story are characters and plot and this and you know arc and setting. Okay, I want you to tonight, your homework is to is to show me the prompt that you put into AI, and I want you to tell it what your plot is, what your characters are, what your setting are, and you're going to ask for a hundred word story and we're all going to read it tomorrow. So you you know, that's and that's a way to teach a kid how to use AI. To teach them the elements of the story, and then and then to say, you know, I if I have to see the prompt, then I have to know that you knew what you were rating in so so you know, that's just top of my mind lesson plan. And then maybe your next lesson is like no AAI allowed for this one, but good luck trying to figure that one out. Or maybe you just have them rate it in class, you know, like, now that you know what these elements are, you're going to rate another one hundred word story, but it's going to be in class right now.

I don't care, just get it out. But but you know, you taking pride in the way that you rate is it's probably not true for a lot of people. Yeah, it is interesting though, right because you are going to your creative and creatives are usually the best at the best at figuring out ways of using tools. What I would hope, you know, for my future kids who are not going to know a wife without AI. I am interested in, like how the same way we talked about how young people conceptualize social media as a neutral entity these days, and like, guess they have really good years and bad years with it. But even like twenty year olds right now, remember like really bad years, but then you know, maybe now they found book talk and just spend you know, a lot of time learning about books, right, so so the way that they conceptualize it differently than us. I'm interested in how people who are born right now, you know, without a world of AI or sorry, they will never know a world without AI. How will they conceptualize ideas and summaries and you know these things we had to do in school, which which strengthened critical thinking. I think it can be done because I even I could give you an exercise that would strengthen your critical thinking with AI. In fact, I would tell you to use AI would be like, think of something that what do you really like to do for fun? Let's let's learn Oh the I'm just top of mind. Like the elements of a story are characters and plot and this and you know arc and setting. Okay, I want you to tonight, your homework is to is to show me the prompt that you put into AI, and I want you to tell it what your plot is, what your characters are, what your setting are, and you're going to ask for a hundred word story and we're all going to read it tomorrow. So you you know, that's and that's a way to teach a kid how to use AI. To teach them the elements of the story, and then and then to say, you know, I if I have to see the prompt, then I have to know that you knew what you were rating in so so you know, that's just top of my mind lesson plan. And then maybe your next lesson is like no AAI allowed for this one, but good luck trying to figure that one out. Or maybe you just have them rate it in class, you know, like, now that you know what these elements are, you're going to rate another one hundred word story, but it's going to be in class right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the challenges I feel like I have, and it probably exists for a lot of people, is the proficiency of everything these days awesome, but the ongoing cognition, like I feel like we live in a world now I certainly have to like I'm raining it in all ways and probably always will be, but that idea of I'm always processing and doing and creating and getting more efficient, and it's more and more and more, and creativity needs space and mindfulness and boredom and with it with a mind that it sometimes I've rushed from thing to thing to create, to produce, to get it out, to get it done, you know, like with excitement and enthusiasm, so you don't realize that you're actually squishing. And I always run up against these moments where I go, oh, like, I'm not able to be creative because I haven't given myself the mental or emotional space. And I think that that, like, is that because everything is at our fingertips in the moment, like we we rush to an answer straight away. Do you think that's a danger for us?

One of the challenges I feel like I have, and it probably exists for a lot of people, is the proficiency of everything these days awesome, but the ongoing cognition, like I feel like we live in a world now I certainly have to like I'm raining it in all ways and probably always will be, but that idea of I'm always processing and doing and creating and getting more efficient, and it's more and more and more, and creativity needs space and mindfulness and boredom and with it with a mind that it sometimes I've rushed from thing to thing to create, to produce, to get it out, to get it done, you know, like with excitement and enthusiasm, so you don't realize that you're actually squishing. And I always run up against these moments where I go, oh, like, I'm not able to be creative because I haven't given myself the mental or emotional space. And I think that that, like, is that because everything is at our fingertips in the moment, like we we rush to an answer straight away. Do you think that's a danger for us?

I think even before AI that I would tell people, you know, you got to take a break and take a break, even though you were saying like that, we're trying to be you know, productive and proficient and all these things. Very often, I would actually consider taking a break a productivity strategy. I take a very I'm pretty interested in pickererformance. And let me tell you, you can't hit peak performance of time, energy and attention without having space, Like without any breaks, you're not hitting peak performance. And you just reminded me of a meme that I saw which it was like an entrepreneur and they're saying like it was it was them at their desk and they had like a thought bubble and they were thinking about the beach and then when then this next picture below them was them on the beach with a thought bubble, thinking about their work. And I know that for some people that would be sad, but as an entrepreneur, it's not that way. Like it's actually like when I clear space and I go take the vacation, I finally am like having all these creative ideas and I'm like excited about it again. And so it's like, that's the life of a creative or and I would consider any entrepreneur, you know, a creative expression. I listened to an notiobook racently. Let me say what.

I think even before AI that I would tell people, you know, you got to take a break and take a break, even though you were saying like that, we're trying to be you know, productive and proficient and all these things. Very often, I would actually consider taking a break a productivity strategy. I take a very I'm pretty interested in pickererformance. And let me tell you, you can't hit peak performance of time, energy and attention without having space, Like without any breaks, you're not hitting peak performance. And you just reminded me of a meme that I saw which it was like an entrepreneur and they're saying like it was it was them at their desk and they had like a thought bubble and they were thinking about the beach and then when then this next picture below them was them on the beach with a thought bubble, thinking about their work. And I know that for some people that would be sad, but as an entrepreneur, it's not that way. Like it's actually like when I clear space and I go take the vacation, I finally am like having all these creative ideas and I'm like excited about it again. And so it's like, that's the life of a creative or and I would consider any entrepreneur, you know, a creative expression. I listened to an notiobook racently. Let me say what.

It was really short one. I hadn't hit it before and then had heap of reviews, so I was like, well, this must be all right, but don't believe everything you think. Was pretty short, but I remember he talked a lot about the difference between thoughts and thinking and how vastly different they are, and how thoughts are something they're creating, there's something that comes to you. But thinking is an act of doing something, so it it's really about mindfulness, I guess. But just the depth at which he unpacked that captured me. I was like, oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean it's exhausting for a lot of people.

It was really short one. I hadn't hit it before and then had heap of reviews, so I was like, well, this must be all right, but don't believe everything you think. Was pretty short, but I remember he talked a lot about the difference between thoughts and thinking and how vastly different they are, and how thoughts are something they're creating, there's something that comes to you. But thinking is an act of doing something, so it it's really about mindfulness, I guess. But just the depth at which he unpacked that captured me. I was like, oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean it's exhausting for a lot of people.

Yeah, trust me.

Yeah, trust me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have a podcast called Let's Think This Through, and a lot of my guests have said, this feels like therapy. I'm gonna have to change. People would consider therapy workI or asked to think quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah, And you know there's a rigoro thinking on purpose, right, So I could walk you through a million creative thinking exercises and we just did one. You know if I said, you know, come up with a plot in a story. But you know, simply even asking someone to think about what are there, you know, what are their top values and why? Or exercises that you probably give the people that you're coaching are really thinking reflection, like any reflection exercises in part of thinking exercise, and that could be really hard for people. It literally exhausts them. They're like, my head hurts.