She said, it's now never.

She said, it's now never.

I got fighting in my blood.

I got fighting in my blood.

I'm tiff. This is role with the punches and we're turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the show, you strapping lad. Look at you. Did you put a tie and a vest on for me?

I'm tiff. This is role with the punches and we're turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the show, you strapping lad. Look at you. Did you put a tie and a vest on for me?

No? No, this is this is my work outfit, you know, just the whistle and flute. But you know, I thought you were talking about the fact that my head is perfectly around. I do have a very round head.

No? No, this is this is my work outfit, you know, just the whistle and flute. But you know, I thought you were talking about the fact that my head is perfectly around. I do have a very round head.

Don't you have a very round head. There'd be a lot of bald men out there that are very envious of the precise roundness of your noggin.

Don't you have a very round head. There'd be a lot of bald men out there that are very envious of the precise roundness of your noggin.

Yeah, there's no like dense, there's no like weird contours. It's just it's just roundness.

Yeah, there's no like dense, there's no like weird contours. It's just it's just roundness.

First time you ever shaved your head, did you, we would be like, oh, what if it's not round? Or were you pretty certainly going to be round?

First time you ever shaved your head, did you, we would be like, oh, what if it's not round? Or were you pretty certainly going to be round?

I knew it was going to be around. I had they shaved my head in the military, like first day a boot camp, and I was like, ah, you.

I knew it was going to be around. I had they shaved my head in the military, like first day a boot camp, and I was like, ah, you.

Know what, I had a good look in the head.

Know what, I had a good look in the head.

This is all right. I'm really I'm too tired to care. I haven't slept in like days, but yeah, all right, this is cool. So I always knew. And then what was it? What year was it? There's one year that was gone back over a decade and I was dating someone who really liked bald men, and she's like, I'll shave your head. So I was like, all right, let me shave my head. Sore, what goes? It wasn't like bald skin. It was like a buzz cut I liked so much. Every year on my birthday for like the next four years, I shaved my head. So I knew what I was getting into.

This is all right. I'm really I'm too tired to care. I haven't slept in like days, but yeah, all right, this is cool. So I always knew. And then what was it? What year was it? There's one year that was gone back over a decade and I was dating someone who really liked bald men, and she's like, I'll shave your head. So I was like, all right, let me shave my head. Sore, what goes? It wasn't like bald skin. It was like a buzz cut I liked so much. Every year on my birthday for like the next four years, I shaved my head. So I knew what I was getting into.

Envy about blokes haircuts is you can you can have what seems like a drastic change, but because it's not well some blokes have long hair. But you know, I like, go, oh, I feel like a change. I'm just gonna I'm going to shave it to a number one. And it's like, oh, you've got a new haircut. And then two months later it's you know, you can have hair again, you can have a different haircut of like, mine's so long now and it used to be so short for so long, and I keep going, oh, cut it all off again, but it's it's curly now. It used to when I last had it straight, it was dead straight. Then a couple of years ago, some hormonal, bloody shift happened and my hair went wavy slash curly ish. And now I can't trust that I could go back to that haircut because I'm like, I don't I don't know how this hair is going to behave at that length. That's a lot of years of unruly growing out that has to happen.

Envy about blokes haircuts is you can you can have what seems like a drastic change, but because it's not well some blokes have long hair. But you know, I like, go, oh, I feel like a change. I'm just gonna I'm going to shave it to a number one. And it's like, oh, you've got a new haircut. And then two months later it's you know, you can have hair again, you can have a different haircut of like, mine's so long now and it used to be so short for so long, and I keep going, oh, cut it all off again, but it's it's curly now. It used to when I last had it straight, it was dead straight. Then a couple of years ago, some hormonal, bloody shift happened and my hair went wavy slash curly ish. And now I can't trust that I could go back to that haircut because I'm like, I don't I don't know how this hair is going to behave at that length. That's a lot of years of unruly growing out that has to happen.

It's hard to grapple with the unpredictability of life. Yeah, isn't it? It's random that there's so much randomness in life makes it exciting choices. Yeah, it's it's scary when you've grown your hair out because you've invested more time, you know, So it's like that sunken cost cognitive fallacy, like you don't now it's like, I've invested all of this, but you look amazing with short hair and long hair. You've got a versatile face.

It's hard to grapple with the unpredictability of life. Yeah, isn't it? It's random that there's so much randomness in life makes it exciting choices. Yeah, it's it's scary when you've grown your hair out because you've invested more time, you know, So it's like that sunken cost cognitive fallacy, like you don't now it's like, I've invested all of this, but you look amazing with short hair and long hair. You've got a versatile face.

I've got very I've got an extremely robust forehead for the character. For the whole long hair, I'm not down with it. Plenty of forehead going on. I'd like a smaller forehead forehead just say forhead or forehead.

I've got very I've got an extremely robust forehead for the character. For the whole long hair, I'm not down with it. Plenty of forehead going on. I'd like a smaller forehead forehead just say forhead or forehead.

It's a forehead because it's four it's forward.

It's a forehead because it's four it's forward.

In tas its forehead for it.

In tas its forehead for it.

I mean, if it was the back, it would be the aft.

I mean, if it was the back, it would be the aft.

I can't believe. We recently had a conversation about the buoys and I hung shit on you. And then I saw an article or something talking about the fact that Yanks say Bowie and I was like, oh my god, I've totally put an episode titling it and hanging shit on them like they were wrong and it's a thing. And now I'm I'm fully the idiot.

I can't believe. We recently had a conversation about the buoys and I hung shit on you. And then I saw an article or something talking about the fact that Yanks say Bowie and I was like, oh my god, I've totally put an episode titling it and hanging shit on them like they were wrong and it's a thing. And now I'm I'm fully the idiot.

You know.

You know.

It was just I was reveling in Bobby gets to be the idiot this time, Like, do you know how many years I've waited for you to be the idiot, to be the smart one.

It was just I was reveling in Bobby gets to be the idiot this time, Like, do you know how many years I've waited for you to be the idiot, to be the smart one.

I was like, yeah, most people, I don't know what's going on with you, so, but you know what, whatever it's called, however you pronounce it. I like your forehead. I think it's got a nice sheep to it.

I was like, yeah, most people, I don't know what's going on with you, so, but you know what, whatever it's called, however you pronounce it. I like your forehead. I think it's got a nice sheep to it.

You know, bouncing off of it right now.

You know, bouncing off of it right now.

Didn't like, oh god, I'm probably sounding really sexist. People are just going to log off. But isn't like with women at a more prominent forehead, it's considered an attribute of beauty, like to have your hair. Isn't that a thing?

Didn't like, oh god, I'm probably sounding really sexist. People are just going to log off. But isn't like with women at a more prominent forehead, it's considered an attribute of beauty, like to have your hair. Isn't that a thing?

Like you?

Like you?

Really?

Really?

No, it's definitely not a thing in my world. I don't believe.

No, it's definitely not a thing in my world. I don't believe.

I mean in general, like I saw it in like this movie about Marilyn Monroe so norma jeans, she had her hair tweezed back further because it was supposed to be. I don't know what I'm even talking about, and I have no clue. I'm just like rationalizing your forehead, which I do like. By the way, It's just it's great for her.

I mean in general, like I saw it in like this movie about Marilyn Monroe so norma jeans, she had her hair tweezed back further because it was supposed to be. I don't know what I'm even talking about, and I have no clue. I'm just like rationalizing your forehead, which I do like. By the way, It's just it's great for her.

Well, thank you. I take it on board, and I feel very appreciative of your positive comments. What's being our on your world?

Well, thank you. I take it on board, and I feel very appreciative of your positive comments. What's being our on your world?

Well, I'm moving out, so great fuck it, I moved for sport. It's just it's crazy right now. Things are just nuts and I'm not even I'm just moving across the car park. There's a car park and another building, and I look down on that building. Not not like I think I'm too good to live in the building. That's just right now. I'm on the thirtieth floor and that building is seven stories total. So when I look out the window, I look straight down on it and thought, oh, you know, we're gonna get out of here. This is not this is not worth it. This place is a bit sterile. Hey what if we move there? We're going to move up to up north, to not the country, but the mountains in the valley. And I was really excited about just sitting on a balcony at the end of a work day and just staring into mountains with nothing around me. But then you know, Amy had, you know, she's gone through surgery, and I panicked. I was like, I don't want to I don't want to go so far up north. I don't want to move an hour away. What if it's too much, you know, Okay, that that's pretty close. I reckon, I'll just move there. So I took a walk across the street and I was like, hey, you know you're letting people move in here. Yeah, we're doing that, all right, cool? Can I move in? Well, I don't know, fill this out. Okay, I'll fill this out. And it's like, so I fill that out, so yeah, you can move in. I thought, all right, I think we'll do that.

Well, I'm moving out, so great fuck it, I moved for sport. It's just it's crazy right now. Things are just nuts and I'm not even I'm just moving across the car park. There's a car park and another building, and I look down on that building. Not not like I think I'm too good to live in the building. That's just right now. I'm on the thirtieth floor and that building is seven stories total. So when I look out the window, I look straight down on it and thought, oh, you know, we're gonna get out of here. This is not this is not worth it. This place is a bit sterile. Hey what if we move there? We're going to move up to up north, to not the country, but the mountains in the valley. And I was really excited about just sitting on a balcony at the end of a work day and just staring into mountains with nothing around me. But then you know, Amy had, you know, she's gone through surgery, and I panicked. I was like, I don't want to I don't want to go so far up north. I don't want to move an hour away. What if it's too much, you know, Okay, that that's pretty close. I reckon, I'll just move there. So I took a walk across the street and I was like, hey, you know you're letting people move in here. Yeah, we're doing that, all right, cool? Can I move in? Well, I don't know, fill this out. Okay, I'll fill this out. And it's like, so I fill that out, so yeah, you can move in. I thought, all right, I think we'll do that.

So oh process of moving Nah, no fun.

So oh process of moving Nah, no fun.

It sucks. The cat's traumatized, like he's walking around like things are disappearing from the house, like the pictures are off the walls. Because you know, cats, they do not like change.

It sucks. The cat's traumatized, like he's walking around like things are disappearing from the house, like the pictures are off the walls. Because you know, cats, they do not like change.

Apple.

Apple.

They are just they are talk about resilience like they're tough, They've got grit, but not a lot of resilience. They're not adaptable. So he just walks around the house meowing and like this perplexed despair. It's very said, I'm just trying to just give them a lot of treats, help them cope.

They are just they are talk about resilience like they're tough, They've got grit, but not a lot of resilience. They're not adaptable. So he just walks around the house meowing and like this perplexed despair. It's very said, I'm just trying to just give them a lot of treats, help them cope.

I do like it. I do like change. They like I'm one of those people that likes to just have a different environment. I have a different have change, Like I would love to think of the apartment I moved out of. So I moved I was in prior to the P word, the pandemic. I was in this other apartment in Elwood and I shared with somebody, so we shared the apartment, so it was a little bit it was newer, and it was really light, lots of light, had a little courtyard. And then when they moved out, I was like, I though, I don't want a house made. You might just want to live by myself. So I stayed there for a bit and then I was middle of COVID, all chaos was insuing, and I was like, this is probably not the most smart financial decision to have this. I should downgrade a little bit. I don't need this apartment, not like it was huge, But so I moved into a little bit older, a little bit smaller one. And when I moved into this, I was like, oh, it's got a homely feel because everyone was modern and light and open, but felt a bit display homey for me. And it never had that homely feel. And sometimes I walk past that now and I'm like, oh, oh that light, Oh that sunlight coming in that full window frontage. I missed that. I'd like to live in a place like that, And I'm like, you lived in that, You lived in that when you moved out your mom. The feel of these hals now, I'm like, these has sucks. I want that half.

I do like it. I do like change. They like I'm one of those people that likes to just have a different environment. I have a different have change, Like I would love to think of the apartment I moved out of. So I moved I was in prior to the P word, the pandemic. I was in this other apartment in Elwood and I shared with somebody, so we shared the apartment, so it was a little bit it was newer, and it was really light, lots of light, had a little courtyard. And then when they moved out, I was like, I though, I don't want a house made. You might just want to live by myself. So I stayed there for a bit and then I was middle of COVID, all chaos was insuing, and I was like, this is probably not the most smart financial decision to have this. I should downgrade a little bit. I don't need this apartment, not like it was huge, But so I moved into a little bit older, a little bit smaller one. And when I moved into this, I was like, oh, it's got a homely feel because everyone was modern and light and open, but felt a bit display homey for me. And it never had that homely feel. And sometimes I walk past that now and I'm like, oh, oh that light, Oh that sunlight coming in that full window frontage. I missed that. I'd like to live in a place like that, And I'm like, you lived in that, You lived in that when you moved out your mom. The feel of these hals now, I'm like, these has sucks. I want that half.

You know, That's okay. I used to I used to get like so much shit because I always moved, and I moved for work a lot. But I also moved because I like different environments too. For me, it's like a reset button. I'm very affected by my environment. I'm unapologetic by it. A lot of people are. So if I go from one place to another or something inspires me, I thrive there. That's part of the reason why I'm moving. This place is so absolutely expensive and it's sterile. Like when you first come to the building, people like, oh my god, Wow, it's like it's like literal city, self contained city. But it's just it seems like it seems like Jane and Larry from Accounting Guy together and decorated this place. It's so corporate looking. With the building I'm moving into, it's like very shrank and it's just like it's got a little bit of edge to it.

You know, That's okay. I used to I used to get like so much shit because I always moved, and I moved for work a lot. But I also moved because I like different environments too. For me, it's like a reset button. I'm very affected by my environment. I'm unapologetic by it. A lot of people are. So if I go from one place to another or something inspires me, I thrive there. That's part of the reason why I'm moving. This place is so absolutely expensive and it's sterile. Like when you first come to the building, people like, oh my god, Wow, it's like it's like literal city, self contained city. But it's just it seems like it seems like Jane and Larry from Accounting Guy together and decorated this place. It's so corporate looking. With the building I'm moving into, it's like very shrank and it's just like it's got a little bit of edge to it.

You know.

You know.

It's like people will walk around the silver outfits for some reason. It's just it's great.

It's like people will walk around the silver outfits for some reason. It's just it's great.

Are they furnished apartments or furnish places or do you have your own fish?

Are they furnished apartments or furnish places or do you have your own fish?

No?

No?

No, we got our own.

No, we got our own.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like for years I always looked for furnished apartments because I was in and out and I was just like bouncing around for different places for work. So that that worked for me. But now, like Amy has a very specific style, she wants to bring.

Like for years I always looked for furnished apartments because I was in and out and I was just like bouncing around for different places for work. So that that worked for me. But now, like Amy has a very specific style, she wants to bring.

All the phone do you know what? I've been thinking about this lately, So it was interesting you mentioned it, the idea of people's energy, Like, I'm really susceptible to energy. How do you or do you have an awareness on it or do you do you utilize that in terms of where and how your life's going and deciphering what feels good and feels you and if you're on the right path being around, like choosing who I'm around and what I want to do and where I want to head. I always I'm aware that I can get attack anything with a level of enthusiasm, but sometimes I know that enthusiasm can be absorbed or ideas, ideas can be absorbed from somebody and sound good, and then once I start to action something, I'll realize that that's it's not a fit for me, or it's not where I want.

All the phone do you know what? I've been thinking about this lately, So it was interesting you mentioned it, the idea of people's energy, Like, I'm really susceptible to energy. How do you or do you have an awareness on it or do you do you utilize that in terms of where and how your life's going and deciphering what feels good and feels you and if you're on the right path being around, like choosing who I'm around and what I want to do and where I want to head. I always I'm aware that I can get attack anything with a level of enthusiasm, but sometimes I know that enthusiasm can be absorbed or ideas, ideas can be absorbed from somebody and sound good, and then once I start to action something, I'll realize that that's it's not a fit for me, or it's not where I want.

To head, or it's so there's almost like a kinesthetic sense I used to like calibrate and navigate through your life.

To head, or it's so there's almost like a kinesthetic sense I used to like calibrate and navigate through your life.

Yeah, like I think I think I I fit like I not deliberately, but I think I've always adapted really easily and naturally into environments and and will be heavily influenced by the people around me, and so being conscious of that, I've always made sure that I'm aware of it. Who are you spending time? And it's the thing I check in. It's like, oh, things going well or things not going well? Who's around Who are you spending your time? Is there a correlation?

Yeah, like I think I think I I fit like I not deliberately, but I think I've always adapted really easily and naturally into environments and and will be heavily influenced by the people around me, and so being conscious of that, I've always made sure that I'm aware of it. Who are you spending time? And it's the thing I check in. It's like, oh, things going well or things not going well? Who's around Who are you spending your time? Is there a correlation?

There?

There?

Is there anything in the environment or the social circles that's influencing who you are and how you feel. Sometimes it's been a case of if I'm frustrated I am not where I I'm not where I want to be. This is frustrating me, I'm not making progress. And so then I do that check and I might go, well, no, wonder because you're spending a lot of time here talking about this, doing this, being around this, but yet part of you really wants that.

Is there anything in the environment or the social circles that's influencing who you are and how you feel. Sometimes it's been a case of if I'm frustrated I am not where I I'm not where I want to be. This is frustrating me, I'm not making progress. And so then I do that check and I might go, well, no, wonder because you're spending a lot of time here talking about this, doing this, being around this, but yet part of you really wants that.

I don't know if I understand you.

I don't know if I understand you.

Which is difficult at the best of times.

Which is difficult at the best of times.

No, there was a lot there there was like twenty questions. I said, wow, okay, But I think we're similar in the sense that I get a feel for something and I don't know why, and sometimes I don't care. Like when you talk about like people talk about what they're looking for on a partner, They've got this huge list. I want this, I want this, I want that, and I don't want this, and that's not me. I can't navigate through life like that. Definitely, with areas and neighborhoods and cities where you talk to somebody where they live, it's like, oh, well, there's good schools, and there's you know, there's lots of places to park, and you know, I have all the I have all the shops, and it's like it's almost a checklist of conveniences and the manies. I'm like, no, that's not me. Where you know, London or New York City, I feel this electricity running through my vein. I feel that me as a person, I'm a single line in a vast story book, and I'm just part of it, a very very small part of it. But I'm part of eight centuries long, ever evolving story, and i don't know where I end in the city. Begins other cities. I just feel like a good sense, a good energy. I don't necessarily feel like this intertwining of my sense of being and the environment, but it's all energetic. So you know, like I'm going to say something that's going to irritate so many people because San Diego, you can't really say this. The only thing you're allowed to say about saying San Diego, I'm talking so stupid right now, Like you can't say this. Of course you can say it. I'm about to say it, and there's nobody that's going to stop me from saying this, so I can say it. But it's almost like, oh my god, San Diego, it's amazing. It's just so beautiful. I don't find it amazing at all. I live here because my work is out here and what I'm doing is important, but there's just not this energetic resonance between me and the city. So I walk around it's like it's picturesque. I mean, not exactly where I am. There are drawbacks that I'm not going to get into because a lot of them involve feces, but that's a totally different story. Yeah, anyway, so yeah, this fece is all over and it's like some of that's from dogs, some of that's not from dogs, some of that's from people. But like the city itself, it's so gorgeous, the landscape, the architect like there's a lot to love here. And I'm like, ah, it just doesn't work for me because I don't feel that and as nothing. It's not a reflection on the city. It's almost like I'm vibrating on a completely different frequency than San Diego, where Singapore kind of the same vibrational energine love Singapore. I'm feeling this London to a much different degree. In New York City, like what I'm there. Time seems to stay, it goes by slowly. That's another thing. How fast does time pass in an environment? If days feel like weeks, I'm probably in a good place. If months feel like days, probably not. That's my criteria. Same thing with people who am I around that makes time slow down or completely stop. If you've ever been in the message right, and I know you have many times, probably a few times a week, where you are so absorbed in some way and the conversation it's timeless, it's almost like a flow state. And then you snap at him. It's like Oh my god, that was so enjoyable, but you didn't have that level of awareness because you were so engrossed in the moment. That for me is I really think it's like flow states. I think the quality of life is how often you can get into flow states. How like that level of frequency and consistency and flow states.

No, there was a lot there there was like twenty questions. I said, wow, okay, But I think we're similar in the sense that I get a feel for something and I don't know why, and sometimes I don't care. Like when you talk about like people talk about what they're looking for on a partner, They've got this huge list. I want this, I want this, I want that, and I don't want this, and that's not me. I can't navigate through life like that. Definitely, with areas and neighborhoods and cities where you talk to somebody where they live, it's like, oh, well, there's good schools, and there's you know, there's lots of places to park, and you know, I have all the I have all the shops, and it's like it's almost a checklist of conveniences and the manies. I'm like, no, that's not me. Where you know, London or New York City, I feel this electricity running through my vein. I feel that me as a person, I'm a single line in a vast story book, and I'm just part of it, a very very small part of it. But I'm part of eight centuries long, ever evolving story, and i don't know where I end in the city. Begins other cities. I just feel like a good sense, a good energy. I don't necessarily feel like this intertwining of my sense of being and the environment, but it's all energetic. So you know, like I'm going to say something that's going to irritate so many people because San Diego, you can't really say this. The only thing you're allowed to say about saying San Diego, I'm talking so stupid right now, Like you can't say this. Of course you can say it. I'm about to say it, and there's nobody that's going to stop me from saying this, so I can say it. But it's almost like, oh my god, San Diego, it's amazing. It's just so beautiful. I don't find it amazing at all. I live here because my work is out here and what I'm doing is important, but there's just not this energetic resonance between me and the city. So I walk around it's like it's picturesque. I mean, not exactly where I am. There are drawbacks that I'm not going to get into because a lot of them involve feces, but that's a totally different story. Yeah, anyway, so yeah, this fece is all over and it's like some of that's from dogs, some of that's not from dogs, some of that's from people. But like the city itself, it's so gorgeous, the landscape, the architect like there's a lot to love here. And I'm like, ah, it just doesn't work for me because I don't feel that and as nothing. It's not a reflection on the city. It's almost like I'm vibrating on a completely different frequency than San Diego, where Singapore kind of the same vibrational energine love Singapore. I'm feeling this London to a much different degree. In New York City, like what I'm there. Time seems to stay, it goes by slowly. That's another thing. How fast does time pass in an environment? If days feel like weeks, I'm probably in a good place. If months feel like days, probably not. That's my criteria. Same thing with people who am I around that makes time slow down or completely stop. If you've ever been in the message right, and I know you have many times, probably a few times a week, where you are so absorbed in some way and the conversation it's timeless, it's almost like a flow state. And then you snap at him. It's like Oh my god, that was so enjoyable, but you didn't have that level of awareness because you were so engrossed in the moment. That for me is I really think it's like flow states. I think the quality of life is how often you can get into flow states. How like that level of frequency and consistency and flow states.

Like a lot of my experience of accessing flow states have been in really exhilarating like boxing or you know, things like that. On Saturday, I drove up to the land it's a bit over an hour away and hung out with Patrick who comes on the show, Patrick Bonello and his dog. So he's got a friend that's got a whippet, and he kept saying, you've got to come and meet Walter the whipp it and bring Loater and we have the puppy play well to the whippet. And so I drove up there and we took the dogs for a walk and they ran off lea was amazing. And then we went and had some lunch, and then we hung out in the backyard and the dogs wrestled and it was fun. And I spent the entire day there and I drove home that night, and I swear to God, if I if I had the money in the bank, I would have in that moment, I would have I would have just put dollars down on board a house in the land and gone, I'm going to come and live here. It was interesting, and I'm like, I wonder, what is it just because it's a change? Is it? Is it because of the energy of the place. Is it the idea of having a yard with with dog friends that we can just lay in the grass and waste the day. But there was no there was no tear rushing, there was nothing. It was just I wanted to stay all day. I wanted I didn't want to rush home and get to bed early. It was like, yeah, let's do this. We played some pool, then we played some beef Saber on the VR headset, all this stuff, and I just went home going, maybe I should move to the country.

Like a lot of my experience of accessing flow states have been in really exhilarating like boxing or you know, things like that. On Saturday, I drove up to the land it's a bit over an hour away and hung out with Patrick who comes on the show, Patrick Bonello and his dog. So he's got a friend that's got a whippet, and he kept saying, you've got to come and meet Walter the whipp it and bring Loater and we have the puppy play well to the whippet. And so I drove up there and we took the dogs for a walk and they ran off lea was amazing. And then we went and had some lunch, and then we hung out in the backyard and the dogs wrestled and it was fun. And I spent the entire day there and I drove home that night, and I swear to God, if I if I had the money in the bank, I would have in that moment, I would have I would have just put dollars down on board a house in the land and gone, I'm going to come and live here. It was interesting, and I'm like, I wonder, what is it just because it's a change? Is it? Is it because of the energy of the place. Is it the idea of having a yard with with dog friends that we can just lay in the grass and waste the day. But there was no there was no tear rushing, there was nothing. It was just I wanted to stay all day. I wanted I didn't want to rush home and get to bed early. It was like, yeah, let's do this. We played some pool, then we played some beef Saber on the VR headset, all this stuff, and I just went home going, maybe I should move to the country.

Is is there something that you just discovered about yourself or is this the person you're evolving into?

Is is there something that you just discovered about yourself or is this the person you're evolving into?

Good question. I felt the last two trips to Tazzy there was much more of a love for that quiet feel that quite that place and there and even being like when I went to Tazzy, I went for some e bike mountain bike rides with my uncle. The last one we went was an austrenuous ride, but we rode around through some tracks and outside of Devonport and you know, through some creeks and bushes, and I was just like, as I rode through those secluded places, I was like, I'd totally get a place and live out of the town, just in the middle of and get a horse and blue sky and some trees and no one's around, and it was just a peaceful energy. And that's that's a change in me.

Good question. I felt the last two trips to Tazzy there was much more of a love for that quiet feel that quite that place and there and even being like when I went to Tazzy, I went for some e bike mountain bike rides with my uncle. The last one we went was an austrenuous ride, but we rode around through some tracks and outside of Devonport and you know, through some creeks and bushes, and I was just like, as I rode through those secluded places, I was like, I'd totally get a place and live out of the town, just in the middle of and get a horse and blue sky and some trees and no one's around, and it was just a peaceful energy. And that's that's a change in me.

That.

That.

Yeah, it's interesting, I'm sure because it's not that long ago. I would talk to people who I feel like Elwood and Sinkilda is one of those places in Melbourne where most people I speak to are like, I used to live in Sinkilda. I used to live in Elwood, and I go, why would you ever move? Like Elwood's beautiful, leafy suburb near that you're close to the beach.

Yeah, it's interesting, I'm sure because it's not that long ago. I would talk to people who I feel like Elwood and Sinkilda is one of those places in Melbourne where most people I speak to are like, I used to live in Sinkilda. I used to live in Elwood, and I go, why would you ever move? Like Elwood's beautiful, leafy suburb near that you're close to the beach.

It is stunning.

It is stunning.

Oh, it's gorgeous and it's got a bit of a village vibe to it. I really love it, and I would think, why would you ever move away from there? But like I get it now, I'm like, oh, it's really nice. I drove down to Dremana to be on a podcast the other day and live in the studio, and drove down there. I was like, it's really nice down here in Dremata. I can see why you live here.

Oh, it's gorgeous and it's got a bit of a village vibe to it. I really love it, and I would think, why would you ever move away from there? But like I get it now, I'm like, oh, it's really nice. I drove down to Dremana to be on a podcast the other day and live in the studio, and drove down there. I was like, it's really nice down here in Dremata. I can see why you live here.

That it's interesting, Like if I think when you're open to change, there's this understanding that it doesn't have to be permanent. It's just like there's this thing about experimenting with life, because there's almost like this permanence and this anxiety and oh my god, what if Like what if I don't like where I move? Well you can move again, you know, experiment with it, just see what happens tested. I think that might be a key to resilience too, is I God. I was having so many interesting conversations with this person I was doing a workshop for this morning. It's interesting because she reminds me. She reminds me of in some ways of Lisa Stevenson. She looks like Lisa. She's got like some of Lisa's mentality. And she said that she took a course on how to make sour dough bread. And I was like, oh, wow, so you really you're really into bread. She's like, no, not really. I was like, well, that's an interesting thing to do. That's why me taking up knitting. I don't knit at all. Why would I do? And she's like, well, I just wanted to experiment with doing something else that's really hard. She loves doing the hard thing, like making bread is very hard. I love that. And I'm like, oh, and we were talking, it's like, you know, if people would just experiment with things, like it's not a reflection of who you are. It's not like pass or fail. It's not like, ah, I can't make this sour dough bread. I fail at it. I'm a complete loser.

That it's interesting, Like if I think when you're open to change, there's this understanding that it doesn't have to be permanent. It's just like there's this thing about experimenting with life, because there's almost like this permanence and this anxiety and oh my god, what if Like what if I don't like where I move? Well you can move again, you know, experiment with it, just see what happens tested. I think that might be a key to resilience too, is I God. I was having so many interesting conversations with this person I was doing a workshop for this morning. It's interesting because she reminds me. She reminds me of in some ways of Lisa Stevenson. She looks like Lisa. She's got like some of Lisa's mentality. And she said that she took a course on how to make sour dough bread. And I was like, oh, wow, so you really you're really into bread. She's like, no, not really. I was like, well, that's an interesting thing to do. That's why me taking up knitting. I don't knit at all. Why would I do? And she's like, well, I just wanted to experiment with doing something else that's really hard. She loves doing the hard thing, like making bread is very hard. I love that. And I'm like, oh, and we were talking, it's like, you know, if people would just experiment with things, like it's not a reflection of who you are. It's not like pass or fail. It's not like, ah, I can't make this sour dough bread. I fail at it. I'm a complete loser.

You know.

You know.

It's not like, oh, Wow, I've made sour dough bread like I'm a rock star. No, it's like, I'm really apathetic to what this reflects about me. I don't care. I just want to learn how to do this thing because I think this sometimes, like discipline and doing really hard things, it's a form of self care. Like we talk about self care as if it's this soft and fluffy thing. And you know, she was talking about this like, oh, you know, she was invited out for a spa day to just decompress and not think, and she was like, oh, that would be torture. I would be so stressed out at the end of a spa day, but you know, working on something and dedicating hours to it, I'm like, yeah, because you know, dopamine is a stress modulator. You know, it regulates quotas or release through the HbA axis. When you get into flow states and you release like things like dopamine in the brain and you alter your biochemistry. That's exhilarating. So being able to focus and do these hard things, and just as long as it's connected, I think, to something that's relevant to you, to something that's important to you, because otherwise it's a dredgery, you know, and you're not going to get into that state. I think doing really hard work because people people often frame it and you know, we've talked about this a lot as if it's this thing where I don't want to do it, but I'm such an amazing person of moral character that I'm diving into it. If you do that consistently, you'll be you will be less stressed, more engaged in life than if you don't. So it really is a form of self care. And I think what stops people sometimes is these stories about what it means to engage in something and struggle through it. Just experiment, like, experiment with living. I know, you got a whole family. It's like, oh my god, dad, we're moving again. We moved two months ago. That's not's not great. I get that there's limitations, but experimenting with where you're living, seeing what works, what resonates, you know, when we were on the podcast with Craig so, I'm not experimenting, you know, with with stand up comedy, you know, and that allowed me to discover something about myself, like I'm not really that funny and I suck at that. But I never would have known that definitively. I mean, I only would have had my wife's feedback to go on. But I was like, all right, she's biased, but no, I got to stand up in front of multiple audiences and go, wow, she's right. I really do have a shit sense of humor. And like you with the podcast, going to do.

It's not like, oh, Wow, I've made sour dough bread like I'm a rock star. No, it's like, I'm really apathetic to what this reflects about me. I don't care. I just want to learn how to do this thing because I think this sometimes, like discipline and doing really hard things, it's a form of self care. Like we talk about self care as if it's this soft and fluffy thing. And you know, she was talking about this like, oh, you know, she was invited out for a spa day to just decompress and not think, and she was like, oh, that would be torture. I would be so stressed out at the end of a spa day, but you know, working on something and dedicating hours to it, I'm like, yeah, because you know, dopamine is a stress modulator. You know, it regulates quotas or release through the HbA axis. When you get into flow states and you release like things like dopamine in the brain and you alter your biochemistry. That's exhilarating. So being able to focus and do these hard things, and just as long as it's connected, I think, to something that's relevant to you, to something that's important to you, because otherwise it's a dredgery, you know, and you're not going to get into that state. I think doing really hard work because people people often frame it and you know, we've talked about this a lot as if it's this thing where I don't want to do it, but I'm such an amazing person of moral character that I'm diving into it. If you do that consistently, you'll be you will be less stressed, more engaged in life than if you don't. So it really is a form of self care. And I think what stops people sometimes is these stories about what it means to engage in something and struggle through it. Just experiment, like, experiment with living. I know, you got a whole family. It's like, oh my god, dad, we're moving again. We moved two months ago. That's not's not great. I get that there's limitations, but experimenting with where you're living, seeing what works, what resonates, you know, when we were on the podcast with Craig so, I'm not experimenting, you know, with with stand up comedy, you know, and that allowed me to discover something about myself, like I'm not really that funny and I suck at that. But I never would have known that definitively. I mean, I only would have had my wife's feedback to go on. But I was like, all right, she's biased, but no, I got to stand up in front of multiple audiences and go, wow, she's right. I really do have a shit sense of humor. And like you with the podcast, going to do.

I'm gonna put you up right there, I'm going to disagree. I think that because this gets me onto that topic of whether or not we can what we're capable of, and the whole you know, you can do anything you put your mind to, and I think that comes down to whether you fucking want it, and if you really want something like you could have been funny if you wanted that bad enough. In a one fucking one eyed I that I absolutely know that I want to master this. You might not stand up on day one and nail what needs to be nailed. But because it wasn't a big enough thing for you, wasn't one thing you wanted, you didn't do it. You know, like there's plenty of people, go and listen. If you haven't heard it, go and listen. I think it was on the Graham Norton or something I can't remember. Ed Sheeran plays a a song of him singing before he could sing, and it's bloody terrible. He could not sing at all. So because he talks about talent, he goes talent because I wasn't talented. People want to tell you that you're either talented or you're not, And I really think, and then how far you get with something, it doesn't matter, because if you love it that much that you're willing to say, I don't care if I'm shit, I'm doing it and I'm gonna believe in it, then it's the journey, not the destiny. It doesn't fucking matter if you get there or not. Does it matter? Does it matter if you never get to run the ultra marathon that you said one day I can, No, it matters that it fills your cup and it allows you to put in the fucking work. And the result that you don't get, well, that's just everybody else from the sidelines. That's just them sticking their nosey and who cares, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you don't get there.

I'm gonna put you up right there, I'm going to disagree. I think that because this gets me onto that topic of whether or not we can what we're capable of, and the whole you know, you can do anything you put your mind to, and I think that comes down to whether you fucking want it, and if you really want something like you could have been funny if you wanted that bad enough. In a one fucking one eyed I that I absolutely know that I want to master this. You might not stand up on day one and nail what needs to be nailed. But because it wasn't a big enough thing for you, wasn't one thing you wanted, you didn't do it. You know, like there's plenty of people, go and listen. If you haven't heard it, go and listen. I think it was on the Graham Norton or something I can't remember. Ed Sheeran plays a a song of him singing before he could sing, and it's bloody terrible. He could not sing at all. So because he talks about talent, he goes talent because I wasn't talented. People want to tell you that you're either talented or you're not, And I really think, and then how far you get with something, it doesn't matter, because if you love it that much that you're willing to say, I don't care if I'm shit, I'm doing it and I'm gonna believe in it, then it's the journey, not the destiny. It doesn't fucking matter if you get there or not. Does it matter? Does it matter if you never get to run the ultra marathon that you said one day I can, No, it matters that it fills your cup and it allows you to put in the fucking work. And the result that you don't get, well, that's just everybody else from the sidelines. That's just them sticking their nosey and who cares, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you don't get there.

Well, I think that's the key right there, that's the key to doing hard shit right. So you're saying, well, you got to really want it, But to me, it's like if something is resident, it's with a core value of yours. It's not about the outcome.

Well, I think that's the key right there, that's the key to doing hard shit right. So you're saying, well, you got to really want it, But to me, it's like if something is resident, it's with a core value of yours. It's not about the outcome.

Now.

Now.

Of course, achievement feels great, right because it's a metric of how well you're doing, and a lot of times that achievement gets your resources to do more of what it is that you want to do. But would you do it for its own sake? When it's amazing, it's exhilarating, you feel connected, and when you feel like shit, you're like why did I ever get into this? And you have these devastating setbacks? Would you still do it for the sake of doing it. I think that's the key to engagement. That's when you know that your behaviors and your values are aligned. So that's brilliant. That's the key for me. Have you read much of Martin Seligman at all?

Of course, achievement feels great, right because it's a metric of how well you're doing, and a lot of times that achievement gets your resources to do more of what it is that you want to do. But would you do it for its own sake? When it's amazing, it's exhilarating, you feel connected, and when you feel like shit, you're like why did I ever get into this? And you have these devastating setbacks? Would you still do it for the sake of doing it. I think that's the key to engagement. That's when you know that your behaviors and your values are aligned. So that's brilliant. That's the key for me. Have you read much of Martin Seligman at all?

Well, not a great deal.

Well, not a great deal.

Knows what's interesting about Martin Seugment. There's a lot of interesting things about Martin Seligman. We talk about well being all the time, and I'm all about semantics, like when we say something, what do we mean by this? So I sat down with an executive leadership team today and we were talking about mindfulness. I know a couple of people were coming into that meeting dreading it because they were thinking about like a yoga pose or like sitting in a meditative state like chanting home. And it's like, now, this is this is not this is not for us, Like you know, we're high performers, we're not mindful. And it's like, oh, what's important to you? Like what do you look for? Who's the best colleague you've ever worked for? What made them critical to you? What made them engaging for you? Like who is your best hire ever? Like I would if I could just rehire this type of person all the time. God, it would drive performance and make our lives so much better having them around. Well, everything that you list requires mindfulness. You're not going to learn, you're not going to grow, you're not going to create much, you know, if you're not mindful. And a lot of times mindfulness shows up between two people. So you have to like identify what exactly are we talking about. And the problem with well being for me is for so many people it doesn't mean anything. It's like, well, you know, well being, you know what well being is? Now I down what does it mean to you exactly? Like define the elements you know, and Gallup defines it. Martin Seligman's definition is not far from Gallup, but then he breaks it down through perma, an acronym. So, according to Martin Seligman, people who are thriving in a state of well being experience positive emotions more of the time. So it doesn't mean it's the absence of negative emotions. Negative emotions are inevitable and they're highly useful, but the ratios are different, you know, like and this aligns with you know, like the work of Barbara Frederickson, which she's like on teams company, the teams high performing teams. There's ratios and I think it's about two point nine, but we can round up to three. Right, So in every meeting, there's every conversation is about three positive emotions for every negative emotion. So you know you could cycle that in a two hour meeting, not of negative shit comes up, but the ratios are three to one, and those teams seem to perform better. So it's positive emotions. It's a level of engagement, right, So you're engaged and then there's meaning, like there is meaning to what I'm doing. And he breaks it down into these domains, and I think it's easy to remember because of the acronym. So it's positive emotions or a higher index ratio of positive emotions. The East stands for engagement. I'm able to sustain focus and concentration on areas that are critically importan they mean something to me, and that I have a high level engagement in the things and the people that matter. I have strong, rewarding, healthy relationships. I'm living a life of meaning and at the end of that there's achievement. And it's like, okay, So if you have these five things going for you, You're less likely to develop a whole host of diseases. You're much less likely to experience chronic anxiety, chronic depression, senses, hopelessness, You're much more likely to bounce back to be resilient, and you're probably one of those people who would experience post traumatic growth on the tail end of post traumatic stress to where it's not like the worst. He has this list of fifteen of the worst things that can ever happen to a human being. It's kind of a fun read if you go through it, and it's kind of like, who are the people have multiple things on this list happen to them, and they don't just survive it, they thrive as a direct result of its. People who have had three are stronger than people who had two. People had two are stronger than people who had one. That's very different when you're dealing with childhood adverse experiences. That's a whole different game when your brain is still forming. But as an adult, if you haven't had that, and you've had a solid foundation and you're living in alignment with perma, and there's a certain ratio of values and strengths that kind of lend itself to this but you're someone who when really bad things happen to you, you become more as a result. Doesn't mean you enjoy it, doesn't mean you wanted it to happen, or you go through it again. It just means that the way you frame it and the way you look at the world produces growth. In spite of it, or in spite of it's probably not the because of it.

Knows what's interesting about Martin Seugment. There's a lot of interesting things about Martin Seligman. We talk about well being all the time, and I'm all about semantics, like when we say something, what do we mean by this? So I sat down with an executive leadership team today and we were talking about mindfulness. I know a couple of people were coming into that meeting dreading it because they were thinking about like a yoga pose or like sitting in a meditative state like chanting home. And it's like, now, this is this is not this is not for us, Like you know, we're high performers, we're not mindful. And it's like, oh, what's important to you? Like what do you look for? Who's the best colleague you've ever worked for? What made them critical to you? What made them engaging for you? Like who is your best hire ever? Like I would if I could just rehire this type of person all the time. God, it would drive performance and make our lives so much better having them around. Well, everything that you list requires mindfulness. You're not going to learn, you're not going to grow, you're not going to create much, you know, if you're not mindful. And a lot of times mindfulness shows up between two people. So you have to like identify what exactly are we talking about. And the problem with well being for me is for so many people it doesn't mean anything. It's like, well, you know, well being, you know what well being is? Now I down what does it mean to you exactly? Like define the elements you know, and Gallup defines it. Martin Seligman's definition is not far from Gallup, but then he breaks it down through perma, an acronym. So, according to Martin Seligman, people who are thriving in a state of well being experience positive emotions more of the time. So it doesn't mean it's the absence of negative emotions. Negative emotions are inevitable and they're highly useful, but the ratios are different, you know, like and this aligns with you know, like the work of Barbara Frederickson, which she's like on teams company, the teams high performing teams. There's ratios and I think it's about two point nine, but we can round up to three. Right, So in every meeting, there's every conversation is about three positive emotions for every negative emotion. So you know you could cycle that in a two hour meeting, not of negative shit comes up, but the ratios are three to one, and those teams seem to perform better. So it's positive emotions. It's a level of engagement, right, So you're engaged and then there's meaning, like there is meaning to what I'm doing. And he breaks it down into these domains, and I think it's easy to remember because of the acronym. So it's positive emotions or a higher index ratio of positive emotions. The East stands for engagement. I'm able to sustain focus and concentration on areas that are critically importan they mean something to me, and that I have a high level engagement in the things and the people that matter. I have strong, rewarding, healthy relationships. I'm living a life of meaning and at the end of that there's achievement. And it's like, okay, So if you have these five things going for you, You're less likely to develop a whole host of diseases. You're much less likely to experience chronic anxiety, chronic depression, senses, hopelessness, You're much more likely to bounce back to be resilient, and you're probably one of those people who would experience post traumatic growth on the tail end of post traumatic stress to where it's not like the worst. He has this list of fifteen of the worst things that can ever happen to a human being. It's kind of a fun read if you go through it, and it's kind of like, who are the people have multiple things on this list happen to them, and they don't just survive it, they thrive as a direct result of its. People who have had three are stronger than people who had two. People had two are stronger than people who had one. That's very different when you're dealing with childhood adverse experiences. That's a whole different game when your brain is still forming. But as an adult, if you haven't had that, and you've had a solid foundation and you're living in alignment with perma, and there's a certain ratio of values and strengths that kind of lend itself to this but you're someone who when really bad things happen to you, you become more as a result. Doesn't mean you enjoy it, doesn't mean you wanted it to happen, or you go through it again. It just means that the way you frame it and the way you look at the world produces growth. In spite of it, or in spite of it's probably not the because of it.

I wonder, I had half a thought. I haven't even fully processed it yet as you're talking about that, and I wonder how much because the art of taking having actions autonomy in the reaction to whatever that thing was. So I guess when I think of back at the time where I got curious and went, oh, that shit that happened to me as a kid, that's not gone away. It's in my mind and it's crept out of the black box, and I'm thinking about it now. I'm curious, and so I took it upon myself to question what residue has it left, What parts of that have are responsible for the things that challenge me today, The parts, what parts of my personality are actually are a result, what strengths or really just a coping mechanism or a reaction to the adversity or the shitty thing that I experienced. So then what so that for me, way before seeking help will making much sense, was the act of I'm going to take this on, I'm going to take charge. I'm going to play a part in this, so you get that autonomy and control over the thing. I wonder how much that plays a part in how we how we feel and respond to trauma.

I wonder, I had half a thought. I haven't even fully processed it yet as you're talking about that, and I wonder how much because the art of taking having actions autonomy in the reaction to whatever that thing was. So I guess when I think of back at the time where I got curious and went, oh, that shit that happened to me as a kid, that's not gone away. It's in my mind and it's crept out of the black box, and I'm thinking about it now. I'm curious, and so I took it upon myself to question what residue has it left, What parts of that have are responsible for the things that challenge me today, The parts, what parts of my personality are actually are a result, what strengths or really just a coping mechanism or a reaction to the adversity or the shitty thing that I experienced. So then what so that for me, way before seeking help will making much sense, was the act of I'm going to take this on, I'm going to take charge. I'm going to play a part in this, so you get that autonomy and control over the thing. I wonder how much that plays a part in how we how we feel and respond to trauma.

I'm so interested in that question. I think that's a very important question answer question that I want to find out more about it. It's like that sometimes things masquerade are strengths, but they are coping mechanisms, and they stop you from engaging in a life of wellbeing. And I'm I'm just like making up a scenario off the top of my head. But someone who's like really self sufficient and like this complete go getter from outside, it's like, Wow, this person's amazing. They're full of energy and like they're independent. But it's like I have an avoidant attachment style because I was hurt maybe even violated as a kid, and so it stops me from engaging in relationships that generate psychological safety and vulnerability and allows me to grow and contribute to someone and be contributed to. But it's on the outside. It's kind of like running a racket. It's almost like a shadow trait, isn't it, Where it's pretending to be one thing, but it's really another thing. I think. And if it creates dysfunctional or disruptive, maladaptive behavior patterns where you know you're severely lacking something that you deeply desire and it's your behavior, it's your patterns that are getting in the way, well, it probably isn't a strength. There's nothing there's nothing wrong with being self sufficient. It's a very good thing. Beats being completely codependent, doesn't it. But is that is that the terror? Is that the attribute we're actually observing. And I'm just speaking from my own life. It was like, yeah, this, Wow, Bobby's so disciplined. Oh he does this work all the time. But I was irritating to be around, and a lot of aspects of my personality made it hard to really bridge that gap from colleague to friend. And I was like, oh, and I wanted that If I didn't want that, you know what I mean?

I'm so interested in that question. I think that's a very important question answer question that I want to find out more about it. It's like that sometimes things masquerade are strengths, but they are coping mechanisms, and they stop you from engaging in a life of wellbeing. And I'm I'm just like making up a scenario off the top of my head. But someone who's like really self sufficient and like this complete go getter from outside, it's like, Wow, this person's amazing. They're full of energy and like they're independent. But it's like I have an avoidant attachment style because I was hurt maybe even violated as a kid, and so it stops me from engaging in relationships that generate psychological safety and vulnerability and allows me to grow and contribute to someone and be contributed to. But it's on the outside. It's kind of like running a racket. It's almost like a shadow trait, isn't it, Where it's pretending to be one thing, but it's really another thing. I think. And if it creates dysfunctional or disruptive, maladaptive behavior patterns where you know you're severely lacking something that you deeply desire and it's your behavior, it's your patterns that are getting in the way, well, it probably isn't a strength. There's nothing there's nothing wrong with being self sufficient. It's a very good thing. Beats being completely codependent, doesn't it. But is that is that the terror? Is that the attribute we're actually observing. And I'm just speaking from my own life. It was like, yeah, this, Wow, Bobby's so disciplined. Oh he does this work all the time. But I was irritating to be around, and a lot of aspects of my personality made it hard to really bridge that gap from colleague to friend. And I was like, oh, and I wanted that If I didn't want that, you know what I mean?

That was exactly my experience was going, Ah, your independence is actually fear of connection. Your strength is actually dissociation. Like all of this resilience is, it's dissociation. You're not resilient, you just don't. Your biology and psychology has learned how to disassociate with what's happening. So when you walk into what everyone else sees in that moment is scary, your body has gone offline and so there's no connection there. So it was like, oh, I'm so tough. It's like, nope, you're scared of things that are healthy for humans. And so but what I'm thinking right now, which I've never really thought much about before, but I was ready. I was ready to go, Oh this thing. I wonder if if someone came along and said, hey, I know that that happened to you, and they started to tell me or guide me towards some sort of resolution about that, would the fear of disempowerment and shame and being told rather than me being the one driving the bus on my own curiosity about healing and growing from what happened and making sense of it. I wonder because there'd be people who have been through something and I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just curious, but that have been through something and someone who's supporting them is like, we need, we need to support you. And then and they're driving the narrative, they're driving the healing, they're driving all of the sense making for the person who actually went through the thing, which could feel disempowering and shaming and they're not ready for it. And so, because what is the difference between the trauma that becomes the anchor or the trauma which I believe my experiences, which is trauma was the gift. Trauma was trauma. I say like adversity is my greatest ally. That's one of my taglines I use a lot now. Adversity is my greatest ally for growth because it's the one thing that has caused me to be great at things and to be brave and to be stronger, be all those things that I believed I was for a long time. It really wasn't.

That was exactly my experience was going, Ah, your independence is actually fear of connection. Your strength is actually dissociation. Like all of this resilience is, it's dissociation. You're not resilient, you just don't. Your biology and psychology has learned how to disassociate with what's happening. So when you walk into what everyone else sees in that moment is scary, your body has gone offline and so there's no connection there. So it was like, oh, I'm so tough. It's like, nope, you're scared of things that are healthy for humans. And so but what I'm thinking right now, which I've never really thought much about before, but I was ready. I was ready to go, Oh this thing. I wonder if if someone came along and said, hey, I know that that happened to you, and they started to tell me or guide me towards some sort of resolution about that, would the fear of disempowerment and shame and being told rather than me being the one driving the bus on my own curiosity about healing and growing from what happened and making sense of it. I wonder because there'd be people who have been through something and I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just curious, but that have been through something and someone who's supporting them is like, we need, we need to support you. And then and they're driving the narrative, they're driving the healing, they're driving all of the sense making for the person who actually went through the thing, which could feel disempowering and shaming and they're not ready for it. And so, because what is the difference between the trauma that becomes the anchor or the trauma which I believe my experiences, which is trauma was the gift. Trauma was trauma. I say like adversity is my greatest ally. That's one of my taglines I use a lot now. Adversity is my greatest ally for growth because it's the one thing that has caused me to be great at things and to be brave and to be stronger, be all those things that I believed I was for a long time. It really wasn't.

Well. I mean, that's hard the last part. It had me all the way up into the last part. I think, again, both things are true, So it could be something that's just a mask, or at the same time, could be a real attribute that you demonstrate and it's rooted in adversity. So it's very plausible that two things that seemingly are contradictory, are absolutely true in reference to you and everybody else. My guess would be that no matter how brilliant someone is, if they are fixing you, I know what happened to you. I support you. Oh and here's what you need to do. That's not support, right, is holding space for someone. Support is not only unconditional positive guard for someone, but it's also respect for the individual and autonomy. I think whenever because it's control and I don't mean that this person is like I know what to do. They're legitimately and intentionally trying to control you. But do this. Followed by that is control And as control elevates, autonomy decreases. And without autonomy, there's not enduring motivation. There's not resilience, there's not Like you said, like, what if that shame surface is well, if you're moving forward at your own pace for your own reasons and these are intentional decisions and frames that you're creating, well okay, I can sit with that shame and go, well, what does that mean? What's creating that? I can't do that. I can't reconcile something if somebody else is guiding my steps for me. The only thing I could do is either comply with it, or if it gets too painful, or if I feel like I'm not being seen or validated, I can outright defy somebody. Well, I did what you you know, I did what you told me to do. I wrote a letter and to someone who basically hurt me, and I gave it to them and they read it and now they never wont to speak to me again. Thanks, thanks coach. Now what because that was your decision, right, So it's not your change. What they're doing is stealing efficacy from you, and they're stealing accountability because if they tell you what to do and it doesn't work, well, how do you adapt to that?

Well. I mean, that's hard the last part. It had me all the way up into the last part. I think, again, both things are true, So it could be something that's just a mask, or at the same time, could be a real attribute that you demonstrate and it's rooted in adversity. So it's very plausible that two things that seemingly are contradictory, are absolutely true in reference to you and everybody else. My guess would be that no matter how brilliant someone is, if they are fixing you, I know what happened to you. I support you. Oh and here's what you need to do. That's not support, right, is holding space for someone. Support is not only unconditional positive guard for someone, but it's also respect for the individual and autonomy. I think whenever because it's control and I don't mean that this person is like I know what to do. They're legitimately and intentionally trying to control you. But do this. Followed by that is control And as control elevates, autonomy decreases. And without autonomy, there's not enduring motivation. There's not resilience, there's not Like you said, like, what if that shame surface is well, if you're moving forward at your own pace for your own reasons and these are intentional decisions and frames that you're creating, well okay, I can sit with that shame and go, well, what does that mean? What's creating that? I can't do that. I can't reconcile something if somebody else is guiding my steps for me. The only thing I could do is either comply with it, or if it gets too painful, or if I feel like I'm not being seen or validated, I can outright defy somebody. Well, I did what you you know, I did what you told me to do. I wrote a letter and to someone who basically hurt me, and I gave it to them and they read it and now they never wont to speak to me again. Thanks, thanks coach. Now what because that was your decision, right, So it's not your change. What they're doing is stealing efficacy from you, and they're stealing accountability because if they tell you what to do and it doesn't work, well, how do you adapt to that?

Now?

Now?

It was their strategy. So if you can't adapt, you're not resilient. But if they tell you something and it absolutely works, that wasn't your win. That doesn't elevate your internal sense of efficacy, That doesn't that doesn't fuel autonomy. It was their win, not yours. So I just don't know. I just don't know if that works unless you're unless you're on, like I don't know, a talk show and it's doctor Phil, then he'll tell you what's wrong with and what you need to do to fixt yourself.

It was their strategy. So if you can't adapt, you're not resilient. But if they tell you something and it absolutely works, that wasn't your win. That doesn't elevate your internal sense of efficacy, That doesn't that doesn't fuel autonomy. It was their win, not yours. So I just don't know. I just don't know if that works unless you're unless you're on, like I don't know, a talk show and it's doctor Phil, then he'll tell you what's wrong with and what you need to do to fixt yourself.

This is why I think, you know, therapists and different types of therapies can be such a mindfield because there's there's so much that comes down to interpersonal skills, intuition, and relationships. But people come out of their accreditation of whatever modality they've been lined focused to and really absorbed and in the learning process of that, you know, like I'm learning piano at the moment, and when I'm learning, I'm focusing on one thing, and then I change once, like I had to start using the sustained pedal, so I'm learning cards and proficient in this song, and then next minute they're like, we're teaching you how to actually use the sustained pedal. Now I'm like, oh, I mean, I don't just lug my wood on it and leave it there. And then all of a sudden, when I had to use the pedal the whole song, I couldn't focus on all of the things. So when a human being goes in and learns a certain type of therapy, whatever they choose, whether that's psychotherapy or CBT or whatever, they're looking at that thing and then all of the natural stuff of managing the relationship, listening, picking up on cues. There's got to be a process of a lot of that getting missed in the early days. So and then they're dealing with people in this really heightened experience in their life where they're now they're ready, they're open to looking for help, but I don't know what that look or feels looks or feels like. And most of them, most of us, I know it was true for me when I first went to someone, was like, cool, I'm here, I'm ready opened the door in my own mind. Here's the problem. I've googled it. Here's what I'm experiencing. A way you go with your verbal bloody red peel situation like give me the peel, fix me and just look at them like you've done the study. Like I don't know what I didn't know what good therapy for me. I didn't know what I needed, And the people that seek therapy and healing don't know what they need. So it's a mind field m fex me.

This is why I think, you know, therapists and different types of therapies can be such a mindfield because there's there's so much that comes down to interpersonal skills, intuition, and relationships. But people come out of their accreditation of whatever modality they've been lined focused to and really absorbed and in the learning process of that, you know, like I'm learning piano at the moment, and when I'm learning, I'm focusing on one thing, and then I change once, like I had to start using the sustained pedal, so I'm learning cards and proficient in this song, and then next minute they're like, we're teaching you how to actually use the sustained pedal. Now I'm like, oh, I mean, I don't just lug my wood on it and leave it there. And then all of a sudden, when I had to use the pedal the whole song, I couldn't focus on all of the things. So when a human being goes in and learns a certain type of therapy, whatever they choose, whether that's psychotherapy or CBT or whatever, they're looking at that thing and then all of the natural stuff of managing the relationship, listening, picking up on cues. There's got to be a process of a lot of that getting missed in the early days. So and then they're dealing with people in this really heightened experience in their life where they're now they're ready, they're open to looking for help, but I don't know what that look or feels looks or feels like. And most of them, most of us, I know it was true for me when I first went to someone, was like, cool, I'm here, I'm ready opened the door in my own mind. Here's the problem. I've googled it. Here's what I'm experiencing. A way you go with your verbal bloody red peel situation like give me the peel, fix me and just look at them like you've done the study. Like I don't know what I didn't know what good therapy for me. I didn't know what I needed, And the people that seek therapy and healing don't know what they need. So it's a mind field m fex me.

Yeah, you're not a piano, are you?

Yeah, you're not a piano, are you?

No, you're not a piano.

No, you're not a piano.

And you know, I think most people would agree that that's true. But it's like when you're teaching someone as skill you want sort of a hierarchical relationship. Don't coach me through playing the piano, like, tell me what the steps are when it comes to personal transformation, because it is so complex and because no one has greater expertise on you than you do, it just doesn't work. You know, someone can guide you, someone can help you learn more about why you are the person you are, why you respond to situations and the way you do. But exactly how to go from being the person you are to the person you want to be. That responsibility, that decision, that autonomy, that has to lie with you.