Ruthie's Table 4Keith McNally on meeting Rose Gray, problem-solving at Balthazar, and SNL parties
From the moment Rose and I thought about doing The River Café, Rose made it clear that everything she knew, she had learned from Keith McNally, a hero of restaurants — with The Odeon, Pastis, Balthazar, Lucky Strike to name a few.
Keith is here with me today to talk about friends, family, writing a book and most of all ‘regretting almost everything’.
Ruthie's Table 4, made in partnership with Moncler.
You are listening to Ruthie's Table four in Partnership with Montclair.
I'd been wanting to read Keith mc nally's memoir I regret almost everything for some time because I know Keith and I love him. It also has the best title ever. But the first chapter nearly finished me off. In the very first sentence, Keith writes about his attempted suicide in Martha's Vineyard. It's painful to absorb as a reader, but for a friend it was monumental. It took me some time to return to the book, but I'm glad I did because this is a brilliant book. It's funny, it's moving and deeply honest. When arriving in New York City, I go straight to Minetta Tavern before anyone knows I'm there. Quite simply, it's my favorite restaurant I know, and I love people who work there, and I love the food. Mostly I go because it's a connection with Keith. From the moment Rose Gray and I, two inexperienced women thirty eight years ago, thought about doing the River Cafe, Rose made it very clear that everything she knew she had learned from Keith McNally, and over the last thirty eight years, Keith has been our mentor, our model, and a hero of restaurants, The Odeon, Pastith, Balthazar, Lucky Strike, to name a few. Keith is here with me today to talk about friends and family, writing a book, and most of all, regretting almost everything.
I always say that we make very few decisions.
You hear that?
And what do we decide? You know? Nothing?
Nothing? Nothing?
Yeah, I think so?
And so when did you what was your first restaurant working? Was actually a place called seven Serendipity. I really good ice cream, really good back time.
When I was a little my dad, is it still there? Do they still have those ice creams? Listeners? There was a little place on the it's still there's a kind of basic.
Go down.
That must be like one of the oldest longest restaurants in New York because I probably went there in the lake. So you worked at Sarah Dipity is the Boy.
But the first brag I really enjoyed working out place not in there now called one fift Yeah. Yeah, that's when I make the lawn and micros actually because sat in Knight Live. If it just opened for three months earlier, then always have the pasties after passes, they still do. There were days people were like John Blueshi chav Is chasing with the brown certain It was quite bizarre because I was in chart at the pasties and so I made to meet all the fancy people.
So you in charge of parties at one f job.
I was also waiting, and then eventually became GM and.
Then you decided to do well, you didn't decide, But how did? Then? How did? Because starting a restaurant is a big deal, yes it is.
But then I left the one face and got a green card because I was quite illegal these days. I was default and mad, so why I was legal for the four years? And then once I got my green car, my brother Brian and my girlfriend Lynn decided to look for the place because we really got fed up with working for the other people.
Did you think there was also a kind of restaurant that you missed that you wanted?
I don't know. First of all, I wanted just a sandwich shop, but one we found Towers cast up Ceteria and tried Beckham and that we loved. It was bath placed, as was larger wrestle. But I always liked everybody enjoyed lack of Pol in mid from Paris, so I had that my mind would beat.
Yeah, what did you love about locker.
Pool because it was open to all hours to all kinds of people.
I was sitting outside locker Pool with Richard and we've been to a movie and it must have been about twelve thirty and we're very young. We're just doing the pomperty. And there was a couple and they it was like it really was almost one in the morning, and they came and the man was on his cane and they looked kind of elderly at frail and they looked at the menu, and then they talked to each other and then they went inside. And I said, that's how I want to get out. I don't want to live in the country. I don't want to retire. I want to be deciding at one o'clock in the morning whether I should go to local pol or not. I was so.
Excited, but it was changeful for me too. I don't have to each the two week in the morning. But New you cand of if you love me. That's why I left London. I didn't know the reason, but when I've personally arrived in New Yorm, that's one of the main things I really enjoyed, and I don't necessarily really want to go every night, just the idea that I can do.
You can. Yeah, and so Odeon Why did you call it Odeon?
But my brother Brian kind of by their name because of Cinema Cinema.
Yeah, the Odeon Cinemas, which are chain of cinemas in London. Yeah, it's a great name. Was it difficult opening yet?
No, but it it's costs under one fifty two thousand dollars. No, it's just memory cole. Now this one.
Costs US thirty thousand pounds. Rose is to drive up to like miles away to find some broken down fridge in Lovely.
Maybe by necessity. Yeah, once you got money, you fixed province with money. If we don't have the money, it must be fixed birth provilence created.
Yeah, if you have money, you fix it with money. If you don't have money, you fix it creatively.
Yeah.
Interesting and was an immediate success.
By third night with but because working downtown for so long, when you go to know lots of people and the thing that got off the ground was really normal. Michaels and just sat in and I would come and needs to also drive back in the early eighties, so that was nineteen eighty was the center of the artwork arters.
So do you remember Jack's Kansas City or.
It makes its Kansas City?
Yeah, that was kind of cool because my older sister was a painter and a lot of those artists, you know, painting alone all days, lonely and you know, you don't see anybody, and then they used to go out at night and then everybody would meet up at night.
Lots of the painters like Jacks and podk was.
Yeah, yeah, how did you deal with that? I was drinking a different thing then.
Yes, because we were at the same age basically. Yeah, it's different.
Yeah, I think it's interesting how it's changed. Do you think it was more forgiving then do you think?
Yes, My happiest times was actually with hisself after work because they treating me as one of the son. But the drinking beers and then after after doing Catherine Lutemburg, that was way uptown.
I remember they have white childs on the floor, is it?
Yeah?
I remember Luxemburg is still there.
Yeah, I didn't have been there for four to five years, carefully members forty one years and after that now and after that Lectrige drive, Lucky Stride.
I remember Lucky Strike. We have just a word before he said about Balthasar, because Balthasar is completely well. You've changed cities. I mean you've changed New York. You have You've made restaurants that people want to go to to have fun, to think about themselves. The changes, the whole dynamic. Didn't you find when COVID happened and there were no restaurants here, restaurants closed, and then when they opened people were so happy.
I remember it's Bouncers. Before COVID, I didn't really understand well restaurant makes for people in the city. There's after COVID I did. But when it reopened Boss, which which is late March twenty the people with their first night was crazy.
The dance.
It's like if we hear day.
I agree. I used to say that, you know, if you ask me what makes the city great, it would be museums and parks and hospitals and you know, theaters. We realized that restaurants are right up. People cried when they came back here having a bit away and you realize that you go to a restaurant, you bump into people you might not Yeah, I've seen.
You get, especially these days with people are online so much.
Yeah, just tell us about Balthazar. What was the idea?
Was in Paris? And then I saw a polk a barmb for one hundred years ago. It was a huge bomb and some ma'am I liked it so much I bought their potoo and carried the photographs when every day for five years and one day and I saw a space and because them that was so high but lovely bomb. That's when I got the I and the needs of high seeing. Relatively so, there's some paces I saw, hell see, but when I saw there's a warehouse and swoming students and then yea.
And what a great restaurant it is. You know, if you go there a lot.
I remember, I'm like to be alone there and we be on. I also left the music late a night.
Does everybody start dancing? See that? Do you think it's only a night nightclubs and restaurants you are slightly watching people think I'm incredibly out there and very open, but actually quite shy. I'm quite quite shy, and so in a way it's a good way to see people have people, but you don't actually have to engage that much.
But we'd like to watch other people not participaly.
Yeah, I agree. When I when I have a big party at our house, I always stand at the door, and everybody thinks Ruthie is so polite because I see every single person who comes in. I say hello to every person, but I don't have to mingle. Yeah, very similar. There's a great you know the movie Castablanca. Well, that's my favorite line. When people ask me to sit down, I always say that. In Castablanca, Ingred Bergmann comes back having looking for Rick, you know, and she had an affair with him, and they left in Paris in a very romantic way. And it's during the war, and she says, please tell Rick, I want him to come and sit with us.
And the lot. I remember that it never.
Sits with the customers, you know, And so sometimes I say that everything, come and sit down and say rip never.
Sits allowed line too.
And your children, your son George is on the ball.
Great. The other kids worked barely, luckily they're not intan, but George.
George is yeah, lovely, lovely guy. No, my kids don't haven't taken up. Rose's son Ossie worked in the wine and managed us and but my again, my family have all worked here as waiters. It's nice, lovely.
One thing about love what you do here. The waiters have to do the prep Yeah, I love.
It, do you? Yeah? It makes some bit. Now we have so many people they do. We have preppers as well. But that kind of involvement with food is good. But you do that do they? What time? What time do your waiters come in?
So when when the busy day we have to prepare them? Can do one thousand cover amazing? That a month amazing.
But it's we have the best job in the world.
I think.
So don't you think we do?
I do know talking to you, to you makes me inspired.
We have to keep what else? You know? That's what I think. I think we have a great and the problems are you know, when we have a problem, you can solve them, you know.
And I love the jump. I think the jump is all about how do you solve problem? People saved to take to me, but runs about of itself. It doesn't It's almost closes every day there maybe your problem.
They come up to me and say, Ruthie, we have a you know, table four is a difficult table, and I think great, Yeah, imagine estate bottled olive oil chosen and bottled for the River Cafe, arriving at your door every month. Our subscription is available for six or twelve months, with each oil chosen personally by our head chefs and varying with each delivery. It's a perfect way to bring some River Cafe flavor into your home, or to show someone you really care for them with a gift. Visit our website shop the Rivercafe dot co dot uk to place your order. Now, I wanted to read you this piece so you could read it from your book about Rose, because it was so moving. Okay, I just read this. This is from Keith's book I regret almost everything, and this is a piece he wrote about Rose a month before we opened. Nell recommended, So that was Nel Campbell, and this is Keith talking. Recommended an English friend of hers. A brilliant home cook, she said, but someone who'd never worked in a restaurant kitchen. While being skeptical of hiring a non professional, I was in tre us enough to fly to London to meet this woman. Her name was Rose Gray. The meeting started awkwardly because we both knew I was there to discuss food, but we consciously avoided the subject. Eventually, Rose asked me if I fancied a bite to eat. Her bite was a grilled, marinated lamb sandwich. It was one of the most delicious sandwiches I'd eaten in my life. I hired her on the spot. Rose planned to stay for two months, but it ended up being four. She couldn't continue any longer, she said, because she was planning on opening an amateur sounding place in London with her friend Ruthie Rogers. After she described her cafe by the Thames, I told her it probably wouldn't work and that she was better off remaining with me at Nell's. Do you remember that, Yeah, So tell me the story.
In one hand, of course, I wanted to be access and the other way and I was quite jealous.
Oh, it was very It was very very tiny. We wanted to be, you know, being Rose. Rose had this incredible air of confidence and she just an ambition. And I remember in the early days she used to get into a taxi, but really early, and she would just get in the cab and she'd go the River Cafe and I'd go. That poor driver, so he has no idea what the River Cafe was. And she could sound quite fierce. No, actually she wasn't at all. She was so vulnerable and so but.
She was fantastic cook, maybe the best cook every she is.
She was, And she was also a great cook and a great teacher. She loved teaching these kids and coming in. I've never worked in a restaurant at all, and I've been a waiter when I was sixteen, and so to come in and start this teene. The only good thing we had was it was small, and the other good thing, you know, because sometimes restrictions are good, you westract, I agree.
How do take to realize how good she was and how the great their food was?
When when when we just started working, we sat down and because again we only had a tiny, teeny little kitchen, you know, we had one fire, one grill, and four hot plates.
What was it on your menu?
We had two menus. We had a menu that was sandwiches, so people could come in and have a sandwich for two pounds fifty. And then we had a pasta every we had one pasta and sandwiches.
What pasta has changed every day?
Yeah, the pasta changed every day. So I would do one day, I would do the pastas and Rose would do the sandwiches, and then one day I would do the sandwiches and Rose would do that. We just switched every time, and so it was learning. I'd known Rose because she was Richard's girlfriend really before I even knew it. They were about sixteen. They went to some Guildford college or something, and then you know, we just we just worked together, you know, and we just found we were different. We had different approaches, we had different ways of cooking. But you know what, well, I think in probably twenty We started in eighty seven and she died in twenty ten, so what's that thirty how many years is that? Twenty twenty three years? We never had an argument and it was conscious. My brother, actually, Michael said to me, I'll give you one piece of advice if you ever worked with somebody else, never have an argument, because you'll always remember that argument. You'll remember the time, you know, you turned around and said, well, I never liked the way you come. And mostly it took an effort on my part because I think she was happy to argue anything. But it was a really good relationship.
How do you wasases get along with this kitchen?
Well, because we're all because we have an open kitchen. First of all, you can't get angry, you know, you just can't. It's a real kind of barrier there. So if you say I've been waiting for this, I've been waiting for that. And so they all I think they get They get along pretty pretty well. And we don't have that tom chef waiter front of house back. And I have to say also, as you know, I have a friend who has a restaurant and he's often talks about having difficult customers. We don't have difficult I don't complain about my customers very much, do you. I generally quite like my customers.
Can't say I like them. I like, I'm jaking.
What do you mean that you don't.
James Gordon, yeah, Joining I wasn't there, but I was a home and the manager called me and said joined gracious in tears because James Gordon got angry and speacause of the instrument.
So for the person who hasn't read Keith McNally's Instagram, and I suggest you follow him because they're a great way to start the day or end of the day. Is that especially for somebody who works the way I do. But also I think just for you know, seeing you're such a good writer and the way that you Again, there are letters. The instagrams really are about the people who work in your restaurant. You give them credit, you praise them, you're proud of them. You give them and fire them, you fire them. I haven't seen instagram saying you fire? Do you fire people.
About?
Have you fired people?
Yes, right of course, But I'm like you. I didn't enjoy it. But he would give to him if I. Of course, somebody to fire somebody often I have to do with fire people.
I once had to fire somebody. I knew I would have to because he behaves so badly. I mean, he actually harmed somebody. And he's a great guy actually, but he kind of had a breakdown. And I called him up the next morning and I said, you've got to come and see me. And I sat down. I said, you know, what you did last night was crazy? You are you know you did this, you did that, and you harm somebody. And I said, you know what would you do if you were me? He said, I fired me. I said, okay, you're fired, and that was it.
Let go.
It's not a nice thing to do. I don't like it. I don't like firing people, and usually you can just move them around or find a place for them something else to do.
I'm alwaysome. I often gave it to people with second chances. I believe believer in second chances. So I might find somebody that Manda and the Monday and choose to beg them to come back.
Do you think that me too? And all of that has helped restaurants.
Because I do.
I think it's better.
Maybe I'm overall I agree with maybe, but when one actually meant I was done alive about them summertime, one to twenty people might be innocence.
I think it's getting better here because there's a process. And I don't know about big people, but here in the River Cafe now in Britain, I think if somebody reports anything, you know, we used to sit down with them and say, hey, God, you know you can't talk that way, you shouldn't do this. Now there's a process which is that everything stops. You bring somebody in and there's a fair trial and kind of you know, they bring witnesses, they do, and it's handled in a way that it is not personal, it just is. And I think young people now they say that when you talk to the women or even the guys. They say, people in their twenties, they know they know how to speak to women, but they know how to deal with it.
Two of months ago I had a couple of to caught having sex in the base bringe doing the service. Those are angry and then twenty two Yeah, that's why nothing at one went after chext. But as long as and then I've didn't buy him. I just you said, don't need doing again, doing again, something else, but not with Yeah, I didn't mention it to a job because my ah person would.
Like if he was a manager and she was a waiter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think I mean that's kind of why we used to go to work.
I'm by the way, and maybe we're gonna be sex, but maybe my two wives of the professional exactly exactly.
But I think I think for us now it's kind of like but also you can do all that and still, well we've always had you. I'm sure you too. It's just the same thing you never had, bullying or you know, kind of bad bad stuff, you know, But now I think it's everybody is just more conscious, everybody's more clear, and you know, women have had a rough time in restaurants for a long time. I was just expected of, you know, So I think.
A couple of allowed to date with working them.
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think there's a rule of the handbook that if you're in a having a deep relationship, you need to report it to HR or something. Just saying so we know, I would What I wouldn't tolerate is people like tolerate. I'd be much more upset if they were drinking. You know. I think alcohol and work is not a great thing. You know, we work in an environment where there's alcohol everywhere, and so that I kind of have.
A bullets somebody I wasn't bullet Yeah.
I've had your sexes, Well we'll go for sex. An open kitchen in the River Cafe means we as chefs are able to talk to our guests dining in the restaurant, and now we're bringing that same ethos to our podcast, a question and answer episode with me and our two executive chefs. Send a voice note with your question to Questions at Rivercafe dot co dot uk and you might just be our next great guest on Ruthie's Table four. One of the few people that has one restaurant. Nobody has one.
I'm thinking there was a great thing I wish I did the same. I have one more restaurant forever, much about much about.
It, But you've just opened one in Washington.
Because I have to have But no, I do because I need the money, because it might do horses and my health. I need money. But also I wanted to make the chef Mandesa and partner, and I also the gentleman reminded som in DC is actually owned by me and the chepherd and the Yeah, but if it was, well.
I think that's the thing that you do feel. If you grow, you can move people, you know in a way that there they don't move here, and so it gives people an opportunity to do more, gives you know, people an opportunity to enjoy something more.
So there is that long when and to the firehouse. Yes, ten years ago he told me that he asked you to Yes, why didn't you do it?
I think there was just a point then that Rosa just died and we love the site, Richard absolutely, you know, he was ready to move in there, and I like Andrea. And then I think what happened was that I realized that it wouldn't be mine. It would be it would it would be a step is. Andrea is such a force, and he did it. Would you know you say you regret now that I really regret not having gone to the children, because it's such a beautiful place and it's a great spirit, and he's great. But I think it was just when he you know, I think there was an idea that I couldn't control what the plates look like, what the furniture would be. But it just there is something having worked on my own that I wrote Andre, a dear Andre letter. But we've remained great friends, and then maybe we'll work together. I think he's done. He knows how. I don't know how to start a restaurant. I literally don't know how to. But that's why I don't have you do no, no, don't you do? You do? Well? Then how do you start a restaurant?
I know.
An argument? We won't those.
I can't say. That's when I always tried to sign the lease quickly. I can don't have time to think much about it.
I never Yeah, I got I got into that thing because that my son said, just sign the lease and you'll sort it out. I'll go, hell, you know, the money, the architect, the investors. That's the other thing. Do you have investors?
Yes, but nobody exactly would actually an investor in the DC with me? It's okay, ever fun. I hate people from.
Marble horrible ideas because the way I talked and the way I looved it's not exactly. If you look a million dollars, yes you do, and I would give you a million dollars, Yes you do. You probably asked this question a lot. But do you give people advice when they come to say.
No the advice? Never take advice from somebody.
I say, I do give one piece of advice, which I think maybe is it?
Maybe?
Is it?
Yeah?
Like don't take advice? But also maybe start small? Maybe maybe Do you think starting small it's not a bad idea, but if you go to open some huge thing, it's such a I've always kind of grown talk about food, as you know, having fun the way you and I do, and getting people to cook and getting people to eat and giving people meals and not.
Charging loved it, loved it.
What's nicer in life? You know? I Richard had that though. I used to have a phrase like if in doubt do it? You know, because sometimes a way to who should eat this person is here? Yes, you know, do it? Do it?
Nothing to lose?
Why why not?
Yeah?
Know, we're the same. And so I think that if all that is giving joy and making people happy and cooking great food and serving it in a way that makes them want to eat and stay, we also sometimes need food for comfort. And I'm sure over the last year since you had your jokes that you want food as comfort. Is there a food that you would go to for comform And this is our last question. Is there something you love from your childhood or that you remembers Prie Mash? Is it?
Yeah?
Do you have it when you come back to London? What do you like about it?
A little liquor that greens to her sauce. It's called liquor.
And what is it?
Partially I don't know about partly based source.
Well, thank you, Keith, this has been a great time.
Love you, Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair
