Pushkin. Hey everyone, and welcome back to Risky Business, our podcast about making better decisions. Today I am joined not by my usual co host Nate Silver, but by an incredible guest, Bill Perkins. Bill is someone who I met through the world of poker, but he is actually so much more than a poker player. He is a hedge fund manager, energy trader, of venture capitalist, an author Diewood Zero was amazing book that he wrote that came out a few years ago, and now he is also the co founder of Skyfi. He also produces movies. I mean, I think there are lots of things that lots of things that Bill had done, and I've probably forgotten a few caps that he's born over the years. But Bill, thank you so much for joining us on Risky Business. It's such a pleasure to have you here.

Pushkin. Hey everyone, and welcome back to Risky Business, our podcast about making better decisions. Today I am joined not by my usual co host Nate Silver, but by an incredible guest, Bill Perkins. Bill is someone who I met through the world of poker, but he is actually so much more than a poker player. He is a hedge fund manager, energy trader, of venture capitalist, an author Diewood Zero was amazing book that he wrote that came out a few years ago, and now he is also the co founder of Skyfi. He also produces movies. I mean, I think there are lots of things that lots of things that Bill had done, and I've probably forgotten a few caps that he's born over the years. But Bill, thank you so much for joining us on Risky Business. It's such a pleasure to have you here.

Yeah, it's great to be here. I love talking to you.

Yeah, it's great to be here. I love talking to you.

Likewise likewise, you know, it was very funny. We had already kind of thought that you'd make a really, really good guest, and then Ivan Boski died and he was obviously the man on whom the Gordon Gecko character in Wall Street was based. And you've said before that Wall Street had been kind of an early inspiration for you, and I was like, you know what, we really should get Bill on on the show. So Bill, we're going to talk a lot about risk and about how you think about risk and in general, how you've thought about it, how your thinking has evolved over your life. But let's start at the beginning. So let's go back to New Jersey for a while and talk about growing up and when you first became aware that you know, life is a series of risky decisions.

Likewise likewise, you know, it was very funny. We had already kind of thought that you'd make a really, really good guest, and then Ivan Boski died and he was obviously the man on whom the Gordon Gecko character in Wall Street was based. And you've said before that Wall Street had been kind of an early inspiration for you, and I was like, you know what, we really should get Bill on on the show. So Bill, we're going to talk a lot about risk and about how you think about risk and in general, how you've thought about it, how your thinking has evolved over your life. But let's start at the beginning. So let's go back to New Jersey for a while and talk about growing up and when you first became aware that you know, life is a series of risky decisions.

Wow, that's a really good question. It's like you're kind of.

Wow, that's a really good question. It's like you're kind of.

At a subconscious level or intuitive level, you're aware a risk even as a kid, right, Like if you take the morality out of it, Like there's a cookie.

At a subconscious level or intuitive level, you're aware a risk even as a kid, right, Like if you take the morality out of it, Like there's a cookie.

In a jar, you're not supposed to go eat it.

In a jar, you're not supposed to go eat it.

You take the cookie and somehow no camera know nothing, but your parents know you took the cookie. Obviously you're not smart enough to deduce like it can only be you, right, And there's chocolate smudges on your shirt, and so there's some sort of punishment associated with that, and you realize, Okay, if this is my reward, if I take this risk and get caught, there's this punishment as you're being socialized into what to do not to do right, and you know, kids try it out and test it out, and so you're making these intuitive risk reward decisions as a kid, right, and the consequences associated with that are actually training you in later life to be risk averse sometimes right, even if it was socializing you from a bad behavior to a good beaver, let's say, not bad behaver, but behavior they want you to do versus the behavior you want to do right, and you start realizing like, wow, this risk it hurts, it feels bad.

You take the cookie and somehow no camera know nothing, but your parents know you took the cookie. Obviously you're not smart enough to deduce like it can only be you, right, And there's chocolate smudges on your shirt, and so there's some sort of punishment associated with that, and you realize, Okay, if this is my reward, if I take this risk and get caught, there's this punishment as you're being socialized into what to do not to do right, and you know, kids try it out and test it out, and so you're making these intuitive risk reward decisions as a kid, right, and the consequences associated with that are actually training you in later life to be risk averse sometimes right, even if it was socializing you from a bad behavior to a good beaver, let's say, not bad behaver, but behavior they want you to do versus the behavior you want to do right, and you start realizing like, wow, this risk it hurts, it feels bad.

I'm punished, I can't go out.

I'm punished, I can't go out.

I think you know, we all get traded, like trained, like, oh, fail bad, right.

I think you know, we all get traded, like trained, like, oh, fail bad, right.

I think there's a lot of yeah, society.

I think there's a lot of yeah, society.

Society definitely says fail fail e cools bad, right.

Society definitely says fail fail e cools bad, right.

Not until you get sports like baseball where it's like, oh it's okay, you bat in three hundred, you're a superstar or something like that. But by and large, emotionally you're getting trained fail bad right. The shame even in you know, like do you ask this girl out she says no. You know, you get ridiculed or whatever. And there's so many situations in your life where your very results oriented, not expected value oriented, not like, if I did this one hundred times, am I better off in life taking this action even though there's this pain associated with these losses?

Not until you get sports like baseball where it's like, oh it's okay, you bat in three hundred, you're a superstar or something like that. But by and large, emotionally you're getting trained fail bad right. The shame even in you know, like do you ask this girl out she says no. You know, you get ridiculed or whatever. And there's so many situations in your life where your very results oriented, not expected value oriented, not like, if I did this one hundred times, am I better off in life taking this action even though there's this pain associated with these losses?

Right?

Right?

And so I was fortunate to have a dad, although a very tough and hard dad, was very very willing to take risks because of the er he grew up in, like and very much like, we're already at the bottom, right, We're already this has already thought of us. You're already you know, not expected to succeed, et cetera. You know, he grew up in an era when you know, racism was the law. It wasn't just like a thing or a feeling or these.

And so I was fortunate to have a dad, although a very tough and hard dad, was very very willing to take risks because of the er he grew up in, like and very much like, we're already at the bottom, right, We're already this has already thought of us. You're already you know, not expected to succeed, et cetera. You know, he grew up in an era when you know, racism was the law. It wasn't just like a thing or a feeling or these.

Group of people was the law. And so he didn't give a fuck.

Group of people was the law. And so he didn't give a fuck.

He was one of those don't give a shit, I'm gonna do X, Y and Z people, which kind of unshackles you from this kind of emotional risk, aversion right in a lot of areas that I got from that, which then allowed when I later when my brain developed to like, go, oh, what is the expected value of this action to actually.

He was one of those don't give a shit, I'm gonna do X, Y and Z people, which kind of unshackles you from this kind of emotional risk, aversion right in a lot of areas that I got from that, which then allowed when I later when my brain developed to like, go, oh, what is the expected value of this action to actually.

Have my emotions align up with that? Right?

Have my emotions align up with that? Right?

So, you know, I find a lot of people they'll get the but they still can't stomach the losses right, the variance.

So, you know, I find a lot of people they'll get the but they still can't stomach the losses right, the variance.

Right, Yeah, I mean I think that from a psychology a standpoint, one of the things, and you know, my PhD was in risky decision making and one of the findings that I come back to over and over and over that I find, even me, even though I know it, the loss of version is just such an incredibly powerful thing. And this, of course is some of Danny Conneman's seminal work. You know, would you rather have a sure thing or you know, be with this loss? There's just something emotionally where even though I know what the right answer is, right, and I know and I know what I'm supposed to decide, there's a part of me that says, yeah, but you know, sometimes I just want the share thing. And if that's true even on the page, now, let's translate that to real life and to our real life decisions. And I do think that that's a really big handicap that our brains have when it comes to assessing risk and choosing things that actually matter for our life life outcomes.

Right, Yeah, I mean I think that from a psychology a standpoint, one of the things, and you know, my PhD was in risky decision making and one of the findings that I come back to over and over and over that I find, even me, even though I know it, the loss of version is just such an incredibly powerful thing. And this, of course is some of Danny Conneman's seminal work. You know, would you rather have a sure thing or you know, be with this loss? There's just something emotionally where even though I know what the right answer is, right, and I know and I know what I'm supposed to decide, there's a part of me that says, yeah, but you know, sometimes I just want the share thing. And if that's true even on the page, now, let's translate that to real life and to our real life decisions. And I do think that that's a really big handicap that our brains have when it comes to assessing risk and choosing things that actually matter for our life life outcomes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's also the scenario dependent. I think some of these things are rational, right, Like it depends on what loss you're trying to vert. If you're trying to not lose this image and you're like the wile risk taker, maybe you over index to taking bad risks, right, because it's just loss of version. So let's identify with the losses right first, and then it's like, wow, I don't want to lose this reputation of being this big bad ass, I don't care trader. And then you just do the riskiest thing exactly, and so now you've done the wrong thing by being too risky.

I think it's also the scenario dependent. I think some of these things are rational, right, Like it depends on what loss you're trying to vert. If you're trying to not lose this image and you're like the wile risk taker, maybe you over index to taking bad risks, right, because it's just loss of version. So let's identify with the losses right first, and then it's like, wow, I don't want to lose this reputation of being this big bad ass, I don't care trader. And then you just do the riskiest thing exactly, and so now you've done the wrong thing by being too risky.

Right, Yeah, I think you said several things here that I would love to dive a little deeper into because I think that they should alight on your career. But also just a light on risk in general. So people have different priorities, right when you're calculating expected value, when you're calculating risk, when you're calculating loss, you're not doing it in a vacuum.

Right, Yeah, I think you said several things here that I would love to dive a little deeper into because I think that they should alight on your career. But also just a light on risk in general. So people have different priorities, right when you're calculating expected value, when you're calculating risk, when you're calculating loss, you're not doing it in a vacuum.

Right.

Right.

My calculation is different from your calculation, especially when it comes to our lives. So when you said, sometimes it's actually quite rational to want to want to, you know, avoid a loss, and other times it's not. Are you thinking as a trader right at this point? Are you thinking as a dad?

My calculation is different from your calculation, especially when it comes to our lives. So when you said, sometimes it's actually quite rational to want to want to, you know, avoid a loss, and other times it's not. Are you thinking as a trader right at this point? Are you thinking as a dad?

Right?

Right?

Which parts of your life are you talking about and I'd actually love to hear more from you on this because you've also taken some risks in the past that you know, maybe the U of today wouldn't take.

Which parts of your life are you talking about and I'd actually love to hear more from you on this because you've also taken some risks in the past that you know, maybe the U of today wouldn't take.

Yeah, there's definitely you know, I have a saying that humans don't net present value well and don't future value well. Like our brains aren't really wired for that. They're wired for like immediate, what's going on? Now, let me survive, let me eat, let me do what's going on?

Yeah, there's definitely you know, I have a saying that humans don't net present value well and don't future value well. Like our brains aren't really wired for that. They're wired for like immediate, what's going on? Now, let me survive, let me eat, let me do what's going on?

You know.

You know.

The first thing about risk reward is getting the variables right.

The first thing about risk reward is getting the variables right.

Right. If it's like this.

Right. If it's like this.

Decision, like if I'm going to move to the city and I get a new job but it pays more, but if it doesn't work out, you know, I don't know people whatever, It's like, there's a lot of variables to figure out. Okay, am I getting how these variables switch in the you know, like zero in one case, right, And so you know, I think the first step is have a methodology to think about these things and then you know whether the variables then you know, flip it out and that takes time. You know, that's not really it doesn't match the guy's like, oh bear run, you know what I mean? Cookie eat you know that type of thing, right.

Decision, like if I'm going to move to the city and I get a new job but it pays more, but if it doesn't work out, you know, I don't know people whatever, It's like, there's a lot of variables to figure out. Okay, am I getting how these variables switch in the you know, like zero in one case, right, And so you know, I think the first step is have a methodology to think about these things and then you know whether the variables then you know, flip it out and that takes time. You know, that's not really it doesn't match the guy's like, oh bear run, you know what I mean? Cookie eat you know that type of thing, right.

Sure, I'd love to hear it kind of specifically in your case. How that's like, how did you go from cookie eat, bear run to being someone who actually thinks about this in a very logical way.

Sure, I'd love to hear it kind of specifically in your case. How that's like, how did you go from cookie eat, bear run to being someone who actually thinks about this in a very logical way.

In trading, we're all trying to avoid the risk of ruin. You know, Sometimes that there's decisions where I'm like, well, this is the trade and this is what we do, and we we you know, sometimes you get got is kind of like the slang use like sometimes you just get got. If you're an insurance company, the hurricane's going to come, right, But you also have to think.

In trading, we're all trying to avoid the risk of ruin. You know, Sometimes that there's decisions where I'm like, well, this is the trade and this is what we do, and we we you know, sometimes you get got is kind of like the slang use like sometimes you just get got. If you're an insurance company, the hurricane's going to come, right, But you also have to think.

About the future expected value.

About the future expected value.

Of just being alive in that very positive field, right as being an insurance and so the name of the game and insurance is to stay in the game. And sometimes you have to even if all the analysis says, you know, this is the right bet, this is the right trade, this is whatever, Like there's another analysis going is that the future of the future unknown expected value of being alive in this field outweighs this any individual bet or risk reward decision, right, And there's so many other variables, like well, investors are very very path dependent, right, if you lose for three years and then make for twenty, you're not going to be around even if you've only lost a little bit of money, because you're never gonna get to raise of money to get the fun and get to capital mass.

Of just being alive in that very positive field, right as being an insurance and so the name of the game and insurance is to stay in the game. And sometimes you have to even if all the analysis says, you know, this is the right bet, this is the right trade, this is whatever, Like there's another analysis going is that the future of the future unknown expected value of being alive in this field outweighs this any individual bet or risk reward decision, right, And there's so many other variables, like well, investors are very very path dependent, right, if you lose for three years and then make for twenty, you're not going to be around even if you've only lost a little bit of money, because you're never gonna get to raise of money to get the fun and get to capital mass.

But if you make, you know.

But if you make, you know.

But if you win for four four years and lose for five and you'll still be around.

But if you win for four four years and lose for five and you'll still be around.

Like they're very path dependent creatures.

Like they're very path dependent creatures.

So there's just little peculiarities of how the system works, how your brain works, how you have to look at how other people perceive risk when you're taking risk, Do you.

So there's just little peculiarities of how the system works, how your brain works, how you have to look at how other people perceive risk when you're taking risk, Do you.

Have the right to take the risk? You know?

Have the right to take the risk? You know?

Things like that is where I've had to make personal decisions about the activities I do as and also like trading decisions like, hey, it may even though this seems like the right trade and the expected outcome is really high, the risk of ruin as at our percent that.

Things like that is where I've had to make personal decisions about the activities I do as and also like trading decisions like, hey, it may even though this seems like the right trade and the expected outcome is really high, the risk of ruin as at our percent that.

We can't take and the name of the game is to stand the game.

We can't take and the name of the game is to stand the game.

I think that's a really smart way of looking at this. And now I also understand why you've been successful as a poker player, because I think that that's something that a lot of poker players. More we can talk about that, but more successful than I think people give you credit for as a poker player. And I think that a lot of poker players understand risk reward, but actually have that piece of the puzzle missing, which is that the name of the game is to stand the game. And a lot of players go broke and they take there's this thing in the poker community that this perverse pride and oh, I've been broke x number of times. And you know, my mentor in poker, Eric Sidell, has always told me that I think that he thinks that that's not a great way of looking at it. He's never been broke, right, that that's not an image you want to cultivate. But a lot of players they, you know, they take the risks and they don't they don't realize that you do have to stay in the game. And we don't know their names, right, A lot of a lot of the players that we're very promising people don't remember who they were anymore. And now some of them were very successful and then went broke and then we're able to raise the second funds, so to speak, right in the poker world. But I think that that's especially for people who are in kind of risky professions, and who are more comfortable taking risks. I think staying in the game avoiding ruin is a really important and often missing piece of the puzzle. And it's something that you've done successfully professionally, even though you've taken some very big bets.

I think that's a really smart way of looking at this. And now I also understand why you've been successful as a poker player, because I think that that's something that a lot of poker players. More we can talk about that, but more successful than I think people give you credit for as a poker player. And I think that a lot of poker players understand risk reward, but actually have that piece of the puzzle missing, which is that the name of the game is to stand the game. And a lot of players go broke and they take there's this thing in the poker community that this perverse pride and oh, I've been broke x number of times. And you know, my mentor in poker, Eric Sidell, has always told me that I think that he thinks that that's not a great way of looking at it. He's never been broke, right, that that's not an image you want to cultivate. But a lot of players they, you know, they take the risks and they don't they don't realize that you do have to stay in the game. And we don't know their names, right, A lot of a lot of the players that we're very promising people don't remember who they were anymore. And now some of them were very successful and then went broke and then we're able to raise the second funds, so to speak, right in the poker world. But I think that that's especially for people who are in kind of risky professions, and who are more comfortable taking risks. I think staying in the game avoiding ruin is a really important and often missing piece of the puzzle. And it's something that you've done successfully professionally, even though you've taken some very big bets.

Yeah, you know, And my natural inclination is, you know, so be it because I have a you know, it's I consider it a blessing. But like I have a lower I don't give give a fuck. I mean higher I don't give a fuck, and lower concern about what other people think.

Yeah, you know, And my natural inclination is, you know, so be it because I have a you know, it's I consider it a blessing. But like I have a lower I don't give give a fuck. I mean higher I don't give a fuck, and lower concern about what other people think.

Like I'm not afraid to look like a clown.

Like I'm not afraid to look like a clown.

I'm not afraid to express my view that in a controversial arena, I was very very happy broke with no money, and so you know, I'm like, I don't want to go there, but I'm okay with it. And a lot of other people, you know, they avoid certain risks, whether it's taking a job or starting a business, not because they can't stomach the financial aspects of it.

I'm not afraid to express my view that in a controversial arena, I was very very happy broke with no money, and so you know, I'm like, I don't want to go there, but I'm okay with it. And a lot of other people, you know, they avoid certain risks, whether it's taking a job or starting a business, not because they can't stomach the financial aspects of it.

They can't stomach the emotional.

They can't stomach the emotional.

Aspects of it, the shame, the ridicule, the feeling like a failure, et cetera.

Aspects of it, the shame, the ridicule, the feeling like a failure, et cetera.

I don't care this is the right trade, Like this is what we do.

I don't care this is the right trade, Like this is what we do.

You know, all boxers get punched in the face, so all boxers get knocked down, right, you know risk managements like uh, name of the games, stay in a game?

You know, all boxers get punched in the face, so all boxers get knocked down, right, you know risk managements like uh, name of the games, stay in a game?

How did I actually don't know this? How did you get into poker? Kind of at the level that you that you play because to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like you've increasingly actually taken the game seriously. Right, you play for fun, but you also have studied, you have coaches, You do want to prove yourself as a good player and not just oh you know, this is some hedge fun guy who's coming into play poker.

How did I actually don't know this? How did you get into poker? Kind of at the level that you that you play because to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like you've increasingly actually taken the game seriously. Right, you play for fun, but you also have studied, you have coaches, You do want to prove yourself as a good player and not just oh you know, this is some hedge fun guy who's coming into play poker.

So I have the curse of two gears zero and one hundred, right, like one or two and one hundred, Like I don't have this modern gear.

So I have the curse of two gears zero and one hundred, right, like one or two and one hundred, Like I don't have this modern gear.

So for a lot of the early.

So for a lot of the early.

Part of my uh, you know, let's say public uh and even private poker thing, it's just like, let me have fun, let me, let me goof off, let me let me put people in tough spots and just go off with the game. And then you know, I got a challenged publicly to a heads up match with a handicap, and he was such a massive favorite. He was going to crush me. But it was a public thing, and I was like, oh, okay, let's let's let's see if this old dog can learn new tricks. And I put it in the work to obviously make that like him a massive.

Part of my uh, you know, let's say public uh and even private poker thing, it's just like, let me have fun, let me, let me goof off, let me let me put people in tough spots and just go off with the game. And then you know, I got a challenged publicly to a heads up match with a handicap, and he was such a massive favorite. He was going to crush me. But it was a public thing, and I was like, oh, okay, let's let's let's see if this old dog can learn new tricks. And I put it in the work to obviously make that like him a massive.

Underdog for the wager we put on.

Underdog for the wager we put on.

And by the way, you're talking about your heads up match with Landon, tis right. Yeah, And he ended up taking a buyout, so so you did. You did win that match in that sense because he realized that it was no longer a good bet.

And by the way, you're talking about your heads up match with Landon, tis right. Yeah, And he ended up taking a buyout, so so you did. You did win that match in that sense because he realized that it was no longer a good bet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The funny thing is when they structured that that all the buyout things, they were worried I would just quit.

The funny thing is when they structured that that all the buyout things, they were worried I would just quit.

Or not complete the bet.

Or not complete the bet.

They didn't realize like I was going in the lab and I was coming to crush, Like I'm coming to win this bet outright and take all the money.

They didn't realize like I was going in the lab and I was coming to crush, Like I'm coming to win this bet outright and take all the money.

So they they, uh, and you know I was.

So they they, uh, and you know I was.

I was two sessions a day playing at night, like you know, at least three hours a day.

I was two sessions a day playing at night, like you know, at least three hours a day.

Of the only amazing And by the way, and you have a job as well, No.

Of the only amazing And by the way, and you have a job as well, No.

I have a job.

I have a job.

So it was it was my my wife did not like that because I'd be up to like one am hand review, you know, playing playing playing then hand review and studying and like beating these things into my head so that I could.

So it was it was my my wife did not like that because I'd be up to like one am hand review, you know, playing playing playing then hand review and studying and like beating these things into my head so that I could.

You know, it actually kind of took the fun out of poker.

You know, it actually kind of took the fun out of poker.

It was very robotic. You know, a lot of it was very robotic with you know, random number generator, this seren al comes up. It's like taking a test.

It was very robotic. You know, a lot of it was very robotic with you know, random number generator, this seren al comes up. It's like taking a test.

And just for people who you know, haven't followed your your poker career, the way that I have. The hand that really stands out to me recently, which I think shows that the old bill who who has captured some of that fun at the poker table still alive and well is when you were playing, I believe it was on a stream at the lodge in a large cash game and you went all in and you were bluffing, and then you said, I have a plane to catch because you were going to your your your buddy's wedding or something, and so you just you went all in and then you got up and you said, let me know if he calls or not, and you just left.

And just for people who you know, haven't followed your your poker career, the way that I have. The hand that really stands out to me recently, which I think shows that the old bill who who has captured some of that fun at the poker table still alive and well is when you were playing, I believe it was on a stream at the lodge in a large cash game and you went all in and you were bluffing, and then you said, I have a plane to catch because you were going to your your your buddy's wedding or something, and so you just you went all in and then you got up and you said, let me know if he calls or not, and you just left.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I actually I was actually finding out whether he called or not, watching it on the delay stream while trying to get into the FBO like at the gate, like wow. And the funny thing is like that, Wow, this is intense, like this is real drama because I didn't know what happened.

I actually I was actually finding out whether he called or not, watching it on the delay stream while trying to get into the FBO like at the gate, like wow. And the funny thing is like that, Wow, this is intense, like this is real drama because I didn't know what happened.

And it was real money.

And it was real money.

It was real No, No, it's definitely real money.

It was real No, No, it's definitely real money.

I was so what happened is my friend Andrew Siegel was opening first time for Tiffany Hattish as a comedian. He's been a real estate guy his whole life. Like, yeah, it wasn't a wedding, it was it was it was a comedy. So he's like, this is his big debut.

I was so what happened is my friend Andrew Siegel was opening first time for Tiffany Hattish as a comedian. He's been a real estate guy his whole life. Like, yeah, it wasn't a wedding, it was it was it was a comedy. So he's like, this is his big debut.

You know.

You know.

He's like, I've been wanting to go on comedy for a while. So I committed to go to his show in Arizona. Okay, and we work backwards, you know. Can I go to lodges? It's fine. I can play with you guys, but I must absolutely meet my wife at this time. You can't miss He's the opener. It's not you can come late and you catch on the show. You have to catch the opener. And I show up for my friends. I believe that like half a life is showing up Like so in these big, expectedly big moments. If I make a commitment, it really takes something very serious for me not to show up to you for it. And so my priority stack showing up my friend fore beats anything. But you know, I'm like last hand guys, like I'm stuck. I'm trying to get in there and trying to get my money and I'm like last hands guys. I let the producers know because they don't let you take your phone in outside send the memo when I have to go at this time. And so that's what happened. And that was the hand and so a lot of people's like, did you plan that was angle? I was like, no, I had to go, and so I put him in the blender with this big bluff, right.

He's like, I've been wanting to go on comedy for a while. So I committed to go to his show in Arizona. Okay, and we work backwards, you know. Can I go to lodges? It's fine. I can play with you guys, but I must absolutely meet my wife at this time. You can't miss He's the opener. It's not you can come late and you catch on the show. You have to catch the opener. And I show up for my friends. I believe that like half a life is showing up Like so in these big, expectedly big moments. If I make a commitment, it really takes something very serious for me not to show up to you for it. And so my priority stack showing up my friend fore beats anything. But you know, I'm like last hand guys, like I'm stuck. I'm trying to get in there and trying to get my money and I'm like last hands guys. I let the producers know because they don't let you take your phone in outside send the memo when I have to go at this time. And so that's what happened. And that was the hand and so a lot of people's like, did you plan that was angle? I was like, no, I had to go, and so I put him in the blender with this big bluff, right.

I know he has, I know he has.

I know he has, I know he has.

I don't overpair, and I just I just was like, oh, he's going to take a while to think about this.

I don't overpair, and I just I just was like, oh, he's going to take a while to think about this.

I got to get out of here and I just left. It's great. It's great TV. I guess you know. I know it's great TV because I was watching sweating. I was like, wow.

I got to get out of here and I just left. It's great. It's great TV. I guess you know. I know it's great TV because I was watching sweating. I was like, wow.

I just I thought I was like, oh, he's probably gonna call, and then he folded.

I just I thought I was like, oh, he's probably gonna call, and then he folded.

It was it was yes, it was.

It was it was yes, it was.

A beautiful moment, and you were unstuck for the session. We'll be back in a minute.

A beautiful moment, and you were unstuck for the session. We'll be back in a minute.

You know, I think to look at risk yourself to look at variants as well, like singular questions, do you take the guarantee or do you go?

You know, I think to look at risk yourself to look at variants as well, like singular questions, do you take the guarantee or do you go?

Right? How many?

Right? How many?

Like a casino wants you to play for hours? Right, They're not gonna let you put down twenty million dollars on what bet? Right like that the variance isn't there for them, is too risky for them, right. But if you say, hey, I'm going to play twenty million for one hundred thousand hands.

Like a casino wants you to play for hours? Right, They're not gonna let you put down twenty million dollars on what bet? Right like that the variance isn't there for them, is too risky for them, right. But if you say, hey, I'm going to play twenty million for one hundred thousand hands.

They'll structure that for you. Right.

They'll structure that for you. Right.

And so the question is is in my lifetime how many of these type of bets this expected outcome am I going to see?

And so the question is is in my lifetime how many of these type of bets this expected outcome am I going to see?

Am I going to see one? One hundred of them? One thousand, ten thousand?

Am I going to see one? One hundred of them? One thousand, ten thousand?

I think that kind of goes into people's calculus, right, it should.

I think that kind of goes into people's calculus, right, it should.

It should, right?

It should, right?

And so not just the risk like oh I'm fifty point six percent favorite.

And so not just the risk like oh I'm fifty point six percent favorite.

Everything, Let me just risk everything, you know what I mean?

Everything, Let me just risk everything, you know what I mean?

Like, but like, oh I'm fifty six point six favorite, somebody's going to do play this game where you're that favorite. They're going to do it a zillion times. And you know it's at a unit that doesn't bank ruby but it can hurt, you know, like.

Like, but like, oh I'm fifty six point six favorite, somebody's going to do play this game where you're that favorite. They're going to do it a zillion times. And you know it's at a unit that doesn't bank ruby but it can hurt, you know, like.

It can handle it.

It can handle it.

And then you get introduced concepts called the Kelly criterion, like how much do you wager of your stack of your life given your.

And then you get introduced concepts called the Kelly criterion, like how much do you wager of your stack of your life given your.

Given the odds, right?

Given the odds, right?

And the short simple answer is the percentage of your bankroll your risk is is the percentage of your edge. So it's it's fifty one forty nine. You're risking two percent of your bankroll per per incident.

And the short simple answer is the percentage of your bankroll your risk is is the percentage of your edge. So it's it's fifty one forty nine. You're risking two percent of your bankroll per per incident.

Right.

Right.

So I think these questions where they say, you know, ten million or four million, it's like, my bankroll is five grand guy, you know what I mean?

So I think these questions where they say, you know, ten million or four million, it's like, my bankroll is five grand guy, you know what I mean?

Like you know, like they're like, I'll take the garantee. Right.

Like you know, like they're like, I'll take the garantee. Right.

If you say, yeah, you get to run this scenario a thousand times and then we'll add that up. Then I think people make a better decision. They'll do the math decision, right.

If you say, yeah, you get to run this scenario a thousand times and then we'll add that up. Then I think people make a better decision. They'll do the math decision, right.

Yeah. I think that that's a really important point that in life we often don't get enough chances for the variance to even out because as you know, you know, the only the only way to fight variance is through volume, right, So.

Yeah. I think that that's a really important point that in life we often don't get enough chances for the variance to even out because as you know, you know, the only the only way to fight variance is through volume, right, So.

Yeah, you need a lot of large numbers. And you give these single incident questions to people and they're like, how do I apply the Crawley criterion when the mount we're wagering here is you know, one thousand x my bank wroth.

Yeah, you need a lot of large numbers. And you give these single incident questions to people and they're like, how do I apply the Crawley criterion when the mount we're wagering here is you know, one thousand x my bank wroth.

But so in your professional career, though you've sometimes made very big taken very big risks on situations, and you're you're someone who trades on information right, and trades on events that happen that you see and you believe you have more information, you understand them better than other people, and so this is not a situation that's ever going to repeat, right, Like so for instance, when you in two thousand and eight, right with Goldman's acts, like that two thousand and eight isn't going to happen again, Or when Russia invaded Ukraine. And I talked about this briefly in the past, but I think that that's a really kind of important recent news event for you where you were able to make a lot of money based on seeing this reacting kind of taking the information the beginning of the COVID pandemic, Like, there are these inflection points where something is happening and someone like you, whose job is to actually be paying attention to these to these events, to macro trends, can make a decision even though you know that decision is never going to be repeated, Do you risk more of your Bankrell? Do you think about those situations differently?

But so in your professional career, though you've sometimes made very big taken very big risks on situations, and you're you're someone who trades on information right, and trades on events that happen that you see and you believe you have more information, you understand them better than other people, and so this is not a situation that's ever going to repeat, right, Like so for instance, when you in two thousand and eight, right with Goldman's acts, like that two thousand and eight isn't going to happen again, Or when Russia invaded Ukraine. And I talked about this briefly in the past, but I think that that's a really kind of important recent news event for you where you were able to make a lot of money based on seeing this reacting kind of taking the information the beginning of the COVID pandemic, Like, there are these inflection points where something is happening and someone like you, whose job is to actually be paying attention to these to these events, to macro trends, can make a decision even though you know that decision is never going to be repeated, Do you risk more of your Bankrell? Do you think about those situations differently?

Well, the way I think about it this way is there's the narrative behind it, the story and then the setup.

Well, the way I think about it this way is there's the narrative behind it, the story and then the setup.

And so.

And so.

In my profession, you know, it could be two thousand and eight crisis, hurricane, a freeze, et cetera. Where you have this certain expected outcome. You know, this is the probability event happened, and this is the expected outcome. So the narrative may change, but I'm going to get a lot of those different things. I'm not going to see a two thousand and eight, but I'm going to see a two thousand and eight risk reward scenario and ev set up again, right, so.

In my profession, you know, it could be two thousand and eight crisis, hurricane, a freeze, et cetera. Where you have this certain expected outcome. You know, this is the probability event happened, and this is the expected outcome. So the narrative may change, but I'm going to get a lot of those different things. I'm not going to see a two thousand and eight, but I'm going to see a two thousand and eight risk reward scenario and ev set up again, right, so.

I will I will get that.

I will I will get that.

And you know that one you're gonna get the law of large numbers that way, right, You're not gonna get not getting the law of large numbers in that narrative, but you're gonna get love of large numbers.

And you know that one you're gonna get the law of large numbers that way, right, You're not gonna get not getting the law of large numbers in that narrative, but you're gonna get love of large numbers.

And that's set up for a lot of traders. It still hurts, you know, emotionally like that. And that's the thing with a you know.

And that's set up for a lot of traders. It still hurts, you know, emotionally like that. And that's the thing with a you know.

Risk there's a lot of people who are bright, very smart professors, people brightther than me. That can't be traders because the emotional UH risk ward does not line up with the actual UH frequency of you know, good days or qui bets. So like, if I think you've heard me say this before, Like they've done studies where the average person needs five good events, five to seven good events to make up.

Risk there's a lot of people who are bright, very smart professors, people brightther than me. That can't be traders because the emotional UH risk ward does not line up with the actual UH frequency of you know, good days or qui bets. So like, if I think you've heard me say this before, Like they've done studies where the average person needs five good events, five to seven good events to make up.

For one bad event.

For one bad event.

Right, So you know people talk about in relationships, like if you have a fight and you're in the wrong with your woman, you can't.

Right, So you know people talk about in relationships, like if you have a fight and you're in the wrong with your woman, you can't.

Just give roses.

Just give roses.

You have to give a roses for five days or five different treats or something like that.

You have to give a roses for five days or five different treats or something like that.

Right, if somebody lost, you know, had.

Right, if somebody lost, you know, had.

A bad day or whatever, they need five good days to like equate to the one the one bad days. Trading, that's impossible, right, nobody is above sixty percent in trading. When people have that you know, emotional ratio of needing five or seven good events to every bad event, it just won't work out in tradings. And so that will weigh on their cognitive abilities to make rational decisions in the future and just drive them crazy.

A bad day or whatever, they need five good days to like equate to the one the one bad days. Trading, that's impossible, right, nobody is above sixty percent in trading. When people have that you know, emotional ratio of needing five or seven good events to every bad event, it just won't work out in tradings. And so that will weigh on their cognitive abilities to make rational decisions in the future and just drive them crazy.

It just won't be worth it for them.

It just won't be worth it for them.

They're miserable, they're angry, it's affecting their family life.

They're miserable, they're angry, it's affecting their family life.

Et cetera.

Et cetera.

And they're in trading not because they want to punch buttons in computer They're there to get money to have a good life, and if it's destroying their life, they need to they didn't move on.

And they're in trading not because they want to punch buttons in computer They're there to get money to have a good life, and if it's destroying their life, they need to they didn't move on.

Have you become better at managing that emotional side? Or is that something that you've always been pretty good at? So is that something that you feels like a part of your personality or is it or is it a skill that you've had to develop.

Have you become better at managing that emotional side? Or is that something that you've always been pretty good at? So is that something that you feels like a part of your personality or is it or is it a skill that you've had to develop.

I think going back to my father and you know, not necessarily worrying about what people think or whether people like, oh, you're a loser, you're failure.

I think going back to my father and you know, not necessarily worrying about what people think or whether people like, oh, you're a loser, you're failure.

That really helps me because.

That really helps me because.

I think people can handle the monetary risk. I think it's the emotional risk. And in that emotional risk, it's not like, oh I lost a bunch of money. I'm an Idiot's like, oh, these guys are going to talk about me. They're joking about me. You know, market's cruel. People like to talk smack. There's always haters, and if you don't give a shit, that kind of disappears, right like, it kind of disappears. And I've always been kind of you know, fuck it, we're all going to die type of guy, like you want to have an adventurous life, you want to have a great life, you should be doing these things. And so that has helped me if I've always had that and I've honed it by like reading the stoics and getting other people's take on that attitude to actually be even better. Right, we can always be a little bit better, And I think the more I'm like that, the better trader I will be.

I think people can handle the monetary risk. I think it's the emotional risk. And in that emotional risk, it's not like, oh I lost a bunch of money. I'm an Idiot's like, oh, these guys are going to talk about me. They're joking about me. You know, market's cruel. People like to talk smack. There's always haters, and if you don't give a shit, that kind of disappears, right like, it kind of disappears. And I've always been kind of you know, fuck it, we're all going to die type of guy, like you want to have an adventurous life, you want to have a great life, you should be doing these things. And so that has helped me if I've always had that and I've honed it by like reading the stoics and getting other people's take on that attitude to actually be even better. Right, we can always be a little bit better, And I think the more I'm like that, the better trader I will be.

Yeah, No, that makes a lot of sense. And it also makes sense to me that you would take these risks in an area where you have an edge. This is information that you know how to act on better than almost anyone else. But you wouldn't necessarily take a risk that was as big and something else. And this is not This is a way of managing I think the emotional element. But it's a little bit different.

Yeah, No, that makes a lot of sense. And it also makes sense to me that you would take these risks in an area where you have an edge. This is information that you know how to act on better than almost anyone else. But you wouldn't necessarily take a risk that was as big and something else. And this is not This is a way of managing I think the emotional element. But it's a little bit different.

Yeah, So the going back to like, you know, risk reward and how I think about risk, right, because you have to know what's your risk and what's the reward, right, And so a lot of times we make decisions and trying to quilibrate that it costs all decisions. I use a motorcycle. Actually, my friend Andrew was the first one who used the motorcycles. Like, I like writing motorcycle. It's really nice. You see all around you. You feel empowered or whatever.

Yeah, So the going back to like, you know, risk reward and how I think about risk, right, because you have to know what's your risk and what's the reward, right, And so a lot of times we make decisions and trying to quilibrate that it costs all decisions. I use a motorcycle. Actually, my friend Andrew was the first one who used the motorcycles. Like, I like writing motorcycle. It's really nice. You see all around you. You feel empowered or whatever.

But I think the odds are like one in ten thousand.

But I think the odds are like one in ten thousand.

You die if you ride a motorcycle for a year. Right, That is kind of my benchmark right on. You know, I do get this reward, it would be enjoyable, but it's not worth the risk. So I apply that to everything. So I need to either have a motorcycle type reward with less risk right to order to do an activity right, or a much greater reward right. And so one of those was skydiving.

You die if you ride a motorcycle for a year. Right, That is kind of my benchmark right on. You know, I do get this reward, it would be enjoyable, but it's not worth the risk. So I apply that to everything. So I need to either have a motorcycle type reward with less risk right to order to do an activity right, or a much greater reward right. And so one of those was skydiving.

Right.

Right.

First time I went skydiving, amazing, adrenaline rush pumped for a week. Second time it was great, wasn't amazing? And somebody said, you want to go skydiving again? I was like, no, the reward is diminished and the risk is still the same. I'm not going to skydive me Like it's it's not worth it to me anymore, you know. And so I use that all the time, Like my friend's like, oh, we're going to go jump off this cliff and you know, jump into the water over here when we're on vacation and I'm looking at the cliff and I'm thinking to myself, it's okay, It's like it would be fun but riskward.

First time I went skydiving, amazing, adrenaline rush pumped for a week. Second time it was great, wasn't amazing? And somebody said, you want to go skydiving again? I was like, no, the reward is diminished and the risk is still the same. I'm not going to skydive me Like it's it's not worth it to me anymore, you know. And so I use that all the time, Like my friend's like, oh, we're going to go jump off this cliff and you know, jump into the water over here when we're on vacation and I'm looking at the cliff and I'm thinking to myself, it's okay, It's like it would be fun but riskward.

Now it's out there, it's not.

Now it's out there, it's not.

First of all, it's not as fun as riding a motorcycle, and you know, the risk seems weird, and so always thinking about the risk reward financially, emotionally, physically, everything at the time, well, I think leads you to a happier and more prosperous life. Yeah, absolutely, according to your own values, right Like some people like I absolutely love riding a motorcycle, then it's worth it to them. I tell people like I don't smoke cigarettes because the reward of smoking cigarettes is like I don't like it enough, right Like I don't like to me, it's nasty and whatever, and so there's almost very little reward and the risk is very high. But if I really love smoking cigarettes, like that fulfilled me.

First of all, it's not as fun as riding a motorcycle, and you know, the risk seems weird, and so always thinking about the risk reward financially, emotionally, physically, everything at the time, well, I think leads you to a happier and more prosperous life. Yeah, absolutely, according to your own values, right Like some people like I absolutely love riding a motorcycle, then it's worth it to them. I tell people like I don't smoke cigarettes because the reward of smoking cigarettes is like I don't like it enough, right Like I don't like to me, it's nasty and whatever, and so there's almost very little reward and the risk is very high. But if I really love smoking cigarettes, like that fulfilled me.

It's my fucking cigarett, you know what I mean, Like, it's just rich reward.

It's my fucking cigarett, you know what I mean, Like, it's just rich reward.

We'll be back after a quick break. I want to briefly mention just because I think this is a theme that informs a lot of what you do. Die with zero, because that is kind of an underlying theme of that book, and for people who haven't read it, you can of course quickly say this thesis although the title of the book is the thesis in many.

We'll be back after a quick break. I want to briefly mention just because I think this is a theme that informs a lot of what you do. Die with zero, because that is kind of an underlying theme of that book, and for people who haven't read it, you can of course quickly say this thesis although the title of the book is the thesis in many.

Ways, right, right, And so I guess the book is about optimizing your life according to your own values. It's like, I don't push how you should live. I've thought about the mental models you should use in order to get the most out of your life, no matter what fulfills you. And so the think about the arc of your life over time, you know, come to conclusions that your choices and your experiences that you have or is your life.

Ways, right, right, And so I guess the book is about optimizing your life according to your own values. It's like, I don't push how you should live. I've thought about the mental models you should use in order to get the most out of your life, no matter what fulfills you. And so the think about the arc of your life over time, you know, come to conclusions that your choices and your experiences that you have or is your life.

That's the summation of your life.

That's the summation of your life.

And you know, you think about what fulfills you in each time period, and these time periods pass. And so if I optimize, if my life is the summation of these time periods, and then I want to use all my resources that I have, my wealth and health and time throughout my life to drive fulfillment.

And you know, you think about what fulfills you in each time period, and these time periods pass. And so if I optimize, if my life is the summation of these time periods, and then I want to use all my resources that I have, my wealth and health and time throughout my life to drive fulfillment.

How do I think about that? Right?

How do I think about that? Right?

And so one of the things you know, we were talking about trying to understand risk reward, you got to understand variables is when you have an experience, when you go surfing, et cetera. It's not just the enjoyment of experience at that time. It pays a dividend in the future. You talk about it, you make friends, and I call that the memory dividend, right, Like accessing that memory produces fulfillment now, right, I crassly joke. Anybody who's masturbated understands the memory dividend, right, and so they understand it in space, right. And so when you invest in experiences, you get dividends, whether that you know, going on you know, walking with your daughter, doing charitable events, going to clubs, whatever. Most of the time you talk with your friends, a significant percentage of that conversation is about things that have already happened, not things that are concurrently happen and are going to happen in the future. And so getting those variables right and thinking about, according to my values, what's the right risk reward decision, what's the right allocation of my time at this at this period of my life? How does that How does this counterfactual regret minimization algorithm for net fulfillment work? As as I as I progress from my life from now to the grave, and so that helps me think about do I show up this, per instance, fiftieth birthday, Do I do I go to this wedding? Do I play cards? Or do I watch a movie with my wife? Or do I do you know, what do I do? In these situations that don't necessarily have hard numbers, like a roll of a dice or you know what I mean, it's a flush draw and I'm forty percent to make it or whatever it is you know at the time, or combo draw, whatever it is. When you don't have these hard numbers, you have to think about the value system.

And so one of the things you know, we were talking about trying to understand risk reward, you got to understand variables is when you have an experience, when you go surfing, et cetera. It's not just the enjoyment of experience at that time. It pays a dividend in the future. You talk about it, you make friends, and I call that the memory dividend, right, Like accessing that memory produces fulfillment now, right, I crassly joke. Anybody who's masturbated understands the memory dividend, right, and so they understand it in space, right. And so when you invest in experiences, you get dividends, whether that you know, going on you know, walking with your daughter, doing charitable events, going to clubs, whatever. Most of the time you talk with your friends, a significant percentage of that conversation is about things that have already happened, not things that are concurrently happen and are going to happen in the future. And so getting those variables right and thinking about, according to my values, what's the right risk reward decision, what's the right allocation of my time at this at this period of my life? How does that How does this counterfactual regret minimization algorithm for net fulfillment work? As as I as I progress from my life from now to the grave, and so that helps me think about do I show up this, per instance, fiftieth birthday, Do I do I go to this wedding? Do I play cards? Or do I watch a movie with my wife? Or do I do you know, what do I do? In these situations that don't necessarily have hard numbers, like a roll of a dice or you know what I mean, it's a flush draw and I'm forty percent to make it or whatever it is you know at the time, or combo draw, whatever it is. When you don't have these hard numbers, you have to think about the value system.

What's the risk reward? I will get this, I won't get this.

What's the risk reward? I will get this, I won't get this.

If I do the ski trip now, I have the memory dimbdend for ten years versus investing the money and taking two key strip ten years of my life. But you know, let's say I'm seventy two ski trips ten years from now, it doesn't really make sense. You know, I might not be alive, my knees not might work, et cetera. If I'm twenty, maybe it does make sense. Maybe nose to the grindstone, you know, do something else that's not ski related with a group and then taking everybody on two ski strips later. Who knows, I don't know the answer. It's more of a methodology to think about things in order to get the maximum high score, and the high score in this case is net fulfillment.

If I do the ski trip now, I have the memory dimbdend for ten years versus investing the money and taking two key strip ten years of my life. But you know, let's say I'm seventy two ski trips ten years from now, it doesn't really make sense. You know, I might not be alive, my knees not might work, et cetera. If I'm twenty, maybe it does make sense. Maybe nose to the grindstone, you know, do something else that's not ski related with a group and then taking everybody on two ski strips later. Who knows, I don't know the answer. It's more of a methodology to think about things in order to get the maximum high score, and the high score in this case is net fulfillment.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean some of the decisions you've made. One of my favorite things that you've done recently in recent years is your purchase of The Sugar Shack, which is this iconic painting by Ernie Barnes, and you paid a record amount of money for that, record breaking for him. And my favorite thing about the story was that, so you flew to the auction to be there in person with your fiance and apparently before the bidding started you told her that, babe, you know, if I pass out or anything else happens, just keep bidding. Those were your instructions, because you're like, we are winning this thing no matter what. Yeah, we talk. You came there to buy that painting, and you were bidding against George Lucas.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean some of the decisions you've made. One of my favorite things that you've done recently in recent years is your purchase of The Sugar Shack, which is this iconic painting by Ernie Barnes, and you paid a record amount of money for that, record breaking for him. And my favorite thing about the story was that, so you flew to the auction to be there in person with your fiance and apparently before the bidding started you told her that, babe, you know, if I pass out or anything else happens, just keep bidding. Those were your instructions, because you're like, we are winning this thing no matter what. Yeah, we talk. You came there to buy that painting, and you were bidding against George Lucas.

I think, I don't know, I mean, we think we think.

I think, I don't know, I mean, we think we think.

You were bidding against someone with a lot of money. So, so walk me through though those instructions and that thinking that you know, if I pass out, just keep bidding.

You were bidding against someone with a lot of money. So, so walk me through though those instructions and that thinking that you know, if I pass out, just keep bidding.

Yeah. So I uh, I wow. I don't get emotional about this.

Yeah. So I uh, I wow. I don't get emotional about this.

It was one of the things that I felt was like a treasure. I think a lot of other people outside of black art collectors or art collectors, are very familiar with that painting. They've seen it in Good Times, it's been on an album cover, it's it's in the it's in the consciousness of America, and it's a unique piece.

It was one of the things that I felt was like a treasure. I think a lot of other people outside of black art collectors or art collectors, are very familiar with that painting. They've seen it in Good Times, it's been on an album cover, it's it's in the it's in the consciousness of America, and it's a unique piece.

Of American art, not just African American mart but American art.

Of American art, not just African American mart but American art.

Because the narratives in those paintings are only are you uniquely American? Right, like an ice skating or eating an apple or whatever, that's global, but the themes going on in a lot of the African American arts are uniquely Americans, like jazz a unique American art form, right. And so with this backstory in this culture and this, you know, might go like I wanted up one day as a kid watching Good Times and seeing that painting at the end of you know, every episode that I watched, you know, I was like, Wow, I made it. I can I wanted this piece, and I'd been collecting Barnes earlier. So one of the risks I avoided was being online. I didn't want anything go wrong. What if the computer went out, or being on the phone, what if the phone went down? What if what if you know, the internet service goes down or whatever, because I'm on a cell phone. And I was like, I can't risk it. I can't risk it. We're gonna fly up the day before. So there's one risk thing that I eliminated because how am I going to feel if like I'm bidding and I don't get to buy and then I don't get it. I would I would just be distraught. So we flew up the night before so we could be there. We walked around our galleries, and we show up into the auction house and that's all I'm coming to get. I thought it was going to go for much cheaper than it then it went. But I started to get suspicious when there was a film crew filming, like the Barnes on the on the thing, and so then the document Cody, the guy who did the Genius documentary about Kanye West, was there. He's like, he's doing a documentary on Barnes and it's in the Night and this is Paintings in the Night auction, which is really reserved for higher price art, but it has an estimate like of a couple hundred thousand dollars and I'm just like, what are they talking about?

Because the narratives in those paintings are only are you uniquely American? Right, like an ice skating or eating an apple or whatever, that's global, but the themes going on in a lot of the African American arts are uniquely Americans, like jazz a unique American art form, right. And so with this backstory in this culture and this, you know, might go like I wanted up one day as a kid watching Good Times and seeing that painting at the end of you know, every episode that I watched, you know, I was like, Wow, I made it. I can I wanted this piece, and I'd been collecting Barnes earlier. So one of the risks I avoided was being online. I didn't want anything go wrong. What if the computer went out, or being on the phone, what if the phone went down? What if what if you know, the internet service goes down or whatever, because I'm on a cell phone. And I was like, I can't risk it. I can't risk it. We're gonna fly up the day before. So there's one risk thing that I eliminated because how am I going to feel if like I'm bidding and I don't get to buy and then I don't get it. I would I would just be distraught. So we flew up the night before so we could be there. We walked around our galleries, and we show up into the auction house and that's all I'm coming to get. I thought it was going to go for much cheaper than it then it went. But I started to get suspicious when there was a film crew filming, like the Barnes on the on the thing, and so then the document Cody, the guy who did the Genius documentary about Kanye West, was there. He's like, he's doing a documentary on Barnes and it's in the Night and this is Paintings in the Night auction, which is really reserved for higher price art, but it has an estimate like of a couple hundred thousand dollars and I'm just like, what are they talking about?

And so I knew something was up.

And so I knew something was up.

I think it was a their psychological employ to get a lot of bidders to show up to think that they were going to get it going and get the crowd going.

I think it was a their psychological employ to get a lot of bidders to show up to think that they were going to get it going and get the crowd going.

And so I saw myself.

And so I saw myself.

As as my friend Rick Lowe, who's an artist, ran Project row Houses as a genius Arthur Award. I bought a piece of art before in two thousand and eight financial crisis from another artist called Biggers, and he was angry and I said why, And he says, because the role of the art to collector is to signal to the market that these works are worth preserving. You are a steward of these works, right, And so the art market sends a signal to the world and everybody that.

As as my friend Rick Lowe, who's an artist, ran Project row Houses as a genius Arthur Award. I bought a piece of art before in two thousand and eight financial crisis from another artist called Biggers, and he was angry and I said why, And he says, because the role of the art to collector is to signal to the market that these works are worth preserving. You are a steward of these works, right, And so the art market sends a signal to the world and everybody that.

This is the culture. These are the things that are worth preserving.

This is the culture. These are the things that are worth preserving.

Like when you go to see in museums or what people commissioned or bought, there are lots of works that are not there, right, And the people from a thousand years whatever, they decided what was worth preserving. Right, civilizations come and go, the art remains, right, And so he was pissing.

Like when you go to see in museums or what people commissioned or bought, there are lots of works that are not there, right, And the people from a thousand years whatever, they decided what was worth preserving. Right, civilizations come and go, the art remains, right, And so he was pissing.

I took that to heart, and I was like, I am.

I took that to heart, and I was like, I am.

To be the steward of this work. It is not valued properly, right, like, especially what I'm on board. So I decided like this, this was it, This is the piece I wanted, and I to my I was like, I was very nervous. I was like, listen, if anything happens to me, just keep bidding, don't worry about me, keep bidding, because you know, I was worry about you.

To be the steward of this work. It is not valued properly, right, like, especially what I'm on board. So I decided like this, this was it, This is the piece I wanted, and I to my I was like, I was very nervous. I was like, listen, if anything happens to me, just keep bidding, don't worry about me, keep bidding, because you know, I was worry about you.

Whatever. And and then off we went.

Whatever. And and then off we went.

I thought, you can hear the auction, there's like somebody did a cut. They're like it's just erupted, like you know, hear me go five hundred thousand, you know, just trying to like clear the.

I thought, you can hear the auction, there's like somebody did a cut. They're like it's just erupted, like you know, hear me go five hundred thousand, you know, just trying to like clear the.

Room, and it just keeps going.

Room, and it just keeps going.

I'm like, holy shit, you know one, you know, and it's just going crazy. So I was like, okay, let me get it to a let me scatter the roaches, you know, get them out of here.

I'm like, holy shit, you know one, you know, and it's just going crazy. So I was like, okay, let me get it to a let me scatter the roaches, you know, get them out of here.

And this other bidder.

And this other bidder.