From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger. Maurice, it's Tuesday, March 18th. These are the submarines that have launched a thousand ships, or rather reams of news stories and hours of debate in Parliament, because they don't just come with an $8 billion price tag each. They also come with some serious political baggage. They are the infamous nuclear powered boats that we've signed on the dotted line to purchase through the Aukus agreement with the United States and the United Kingdom. Our foreign affairs and security correspondent recently stepped inside one in order to find out. Are these submarines really that special? Today, Matthew, not on whether we need these so-called apex predators of 21st century naval warfare and whether this deal is even safe under the presidency of Donald Trump. So, Matt, you were among a group of journalists who just on Sunday were given a tour of one of the US Navy's Virginia class submarines. Now, these, of course, are the subs that Australia is buying as part of the Aukus deal. So first off, just tell us, what is it like being in one of those things?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger. Maurice, it's Tuesday, March 18th. These are the submarines that have launched a thousand ships, or rather reams of news stories and hours of debate in Parliament, because they don't just come with an $8 billion price tag each. They also come with some serious political baggage. They are the infamous nuclear powered boats that we've signed on the dotted line to purchase through the Aukus agreement with the United States and the United Kingdom. Our foreign affairs and security correspondent recently stepped inside one in order to find out. Are these submarines really that special? Today, Matthew, not on whether we need these so-called apex predators of 21st century naval warfare and whether this deal is even safe under the presidency of Donald Trump. So, Matt, you were among a group of journalists who just on Sunday were given a tour of one of the US Navy's Virginia class submarines. Now, these, of course, are the subs that Australia is buying as part of the Aukus deal. So first off, just tell us, what is it like being in one of those things?

Yeah, I'm having written about Aukus a lot over recent years. I've been very keen to actually step aboard one of these Virginia class submarines that we spend a lot of time talking about, debating.

Yeah, I'm having written about Aukus a lot over recent years. I've been very keen to actually step aboard one of these Virginia class submarines that we spend a lot of time talking about, debating.

The range of breaking news this morning. And Prime Minister Scott Morrison has joined US President Joe Biden and British PM Boris Johnson to unveil a major new security pact.

The range of breaking news this morning. And Prime Minister Scott Morrison has joined US President Joe Biden and British PM Boris Johnson to unveil a major new security pact.

President Macron told a couple of us around the corner that you didn't tell him the truth on the subs deal. In fact, he said that you might have lied. Is that true?

President Macron told a couple of us around the corner that you didn't tell him the truth on the subs deal. In fact, he said that you might have lied. Is that true?

No. Do you think he lied to you?

No. Do you think he lied to you?

I don't think I know.

I don't think I know.

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

Aukus the Australia US Defence Alliance.

Aukus the Australia US Defence Alliance.

Well, we'll be discussing that. We've had another great relationship. And you have two with Australia?

Well, we'll be discussing that. We've had another great relationship. And you have two with Australia?

Yeah.

Yeah.

A submarine called the USS Minnesota has been in WA for the past three weeks. It's been here a while, and I received a call saying that we're taking some journalists on board. And would you like to join? And I said, uh, very much.

A submarine called the USS Minnesota has been in WA for the past three weeks. It's been here a while, and I received a call saying that we're taking some journalists on board. And would you like to join? And I said, uh, very much.

Site in Perth. The USS Minnesota moored at HMAS Stirling.

Site in Perth. The USS Minnesota moored at HMAS Stirling.

We are very excited to be here in Australia. This is the the port visit that every sailor dreams of.

We are very excited to be here in Australia. This is the the port visit that every sailor dreams of.

So on the tour we got to see different rooms, different aspects of the submarine. I was interested to learn that it's not just named USS Minnesota, after the state in the Midwest of America. They take that idea very seriously, the connection to that state. There's paraphernalia all over the submarine are from Minnesota. Minnesota has a Scandinavian history. Viking is the name of the state football team, and they actually take this ethos on. We saw the cafe called the Valhalla Cafe, essentially the galley restaurant where the chefs prepare the food. Everyone told us about the hugely important role a food plays to morale. There will be Taco Tuesdays, there will be Burger Nights. After they do a significant operation, they'll have Saturday night pizza and movie nights.

So on the tour we got to see different rooms, different aspects of the submarine. I was interested to learn that it's not just named USS Minnesota, after the state in the Midwest of America. They take that idea very seriously, the connection to that state. There's paraphernalia all over the submarine are from Minnesota. Minnesota has a Scandinavian history. Viking is the name of the state football team, and they actually take this ethos on. We saw the cafe called the Valhalla Cafe, essentially the galley restaurant where the chefs prepare the food. Everyone told us about the hugely important role a food plays to morale. There will be Taco Tuesdays, there will be Burger Nights. After they do a significant operation, they'll have Saturday night pizza and movie nights.

140 crew, including seven women working around the clock in tight quarters.

140 crew, including seven women working around the clock in tight quarters.

So can you just tell us how claustrophobic it is inside these submarines? Can you paint a picture for us about what it's actually like inside?

So can you just tell us how claustrophobic it is inside these submarines? Can you paint a picture for us about what it's actually like inside?

It is a very tight, confined environment. The Virginia class submarines that the US has are bigger and roomier than the Collins class submarines that Australia has, but still, space is absolutely at a premium. The primary function of submarines is to a fight, a war. It's a military purpose, so everything has double use. Everything is packed in. Yeah. If you were claustrophobic, it certainly wouldn't be a career for you. People talk about this, that the teamwork and trust in your colleagues has to be incredibly high to operate in an environment like this. So it's clear that it's certainly not for everyone. Some of the submariners on board had told us they'd spent 102 days in there without seeing sunlight underwater for the whole time, because of the nuclear propulsion technology. So that's a challenge for a lot of people.

It is a very tight, confined environment. The Virginia class submarines that the US has are bigger and roomier than the Collins class submarines that Australia has, but still, space is absolutely at a premium. The primary function of submarines is to a fight, a war. It's a military purpose, so everything has double use. Everything is packed in. Yeah. If you were claustrophobic, it certainly wouldn't be a career for you. People talk about this, that the teamwork and trust in your colleagues has to be incredibly high to operate in an environment like this. So it's clear that it's certainly not for everyone. Some of the submariners on board had told us they'd spent 102 days in there without seeing sunlight underwater for the whole time, because of the nuclear propulsion technology. So that's a challenge for a lot of people.

And so tell us why. Why did you get a peek now? Like who actually organises this? Because of course, this Aukus pact. I mean, it goes back three and a half years.

And so tell us why. Why did you get a peek now? Like who actually organises this? Because of course, this Aukus pact. I mean, it goes back three and a half years.

So as Orcus accelerates and moves forward, these type of visits are becoming more common. There's going to be two scheduled this year are port visits by a US nuclear powered submarines and the US side just like the Australian side. They're aware that there is a debate around orcas, that there's a debate around the very high cost of this program. Why does Australia need these submarines? Submarines are very mysterious to people. That's by design. They're stealthy. And exactly what they do in a war fighting sense isn't really discussed. So the US embassy, the US consulate here in Perth, is aware that they need to try and help educate people via the media about what these submarines do, who the people are on there. If Australians are going to understand what Aukus is all about and why submarines especially are important for maritime continent like Australia.

So as Orcus accelerates and moves forward, these type of visits are becoming more common. There's going to be two scheduled this year are port visits by a US nuclear powered submarines and the US side just like the Australian side. They're aware that there is a debate around orcas, that there's a debate around the very high cost of this program. Why does Australia need these submarines? Submarines are very mysterious to people. That's by design. They're stealthy. And exactly what they do in a war fighting sense isn't really discussed. So the US embassy, the US consulate here in Perth, is aware that they need to try and help educate people via the media about what these submarines do, who the people are on there. If Australians are going to understand what Aukus is all about and why submarines especially are important for maritime continent like Australia.

Okay, so I do want to get into their function in just a moment. But first, can you just take a step back for us and actually tell us what Aukus is?

Okay, so I do want to get into their function in just a moment. But first, can you just take a step back for us and actually tell us what Aukus is?

So Aukus is a three way partnership between the UK, US and Australia. It's not technically an alliance. What it is, is a technology sharing partnership. It has two halves to it, the first half of which we talk about a lot more. That is the submarine part. So that is Australia gaining through the permission of the US and UK access to their nuclear technology, that we're going to acquire a three Virginia class submarines from the US and then start building a new fleet of nuclear powered submarines, mostly with the British, but with some American parts in there as well. Many countries have sought this technology Australia in the past as well and have been knocked back. This is very, very closely guarded stuff. And the seven nations in the world have nuclear powered submarines. So we're stepping up into a new club of military powers here. And the second part of Aukus is more general military cooperation on advanced technologies, things like hypersonic weapons, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, autonomous undersea vessels. That's all going along in the background. And there's a lot of work being done there. But many people agree in this space that there's a lot of potential, and not a huge amount has actually been achieved there yet.

So Aukus is a three way partnership between the UK, US and Australia. It's not technically an alliance. What it is, is a technology sharing partnership. It has two halves to it, the first half of which we talk about a lot more. That is the submarine part. So that is Australia gaining through the permission of the US and UK access to their nuclear technology, that we're going to acquire a three Virginia class submarines from the US and then start building a new fleet of nuclear powered submarines, mostly with the British, but with some American parts in there as well. Many countries have sought this technology Australia in the past as well and have been knocked back. This is very, very closely guarded stuff. And the seven nations in the world have nuclear powered submarines. So we're stepping up into a new club of military powers here. And the second part of Aukus is more general military cooperation on advanced technologies, things like hypersonic weapons, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, autonomous undersea vessels. That's all going along in the background. And there's a lot of work being done there. But many people agree in this space that there's a lot of potential, and not a huge amount has actually been achieved there yet.

Okay, so you say that with this pact, you know, we're entering this elite club. You know, lots of countries have wanted this technology and haven't got it. And now we're finally set up to get it. We also know that they're hugely expensive. This pact is estimated to cost up to $368 billion for us, I believe. So what actually makes these submarines so special? Like why the big deal.

Okay, so you say that with this pact, you know, we're entering this elite club. You know, lots of countries have wanted this technology and haven't got it. And now we're finally set up to get it. We also know that they're hugely expensive. This pact is estimated to cost up to $368 billion for us, I believe. So what actually makes these submarines so special? Like why the big deal.

Mhm. And we could see this when we were on there. The level of technology certainly is more advanced on a Virginia class submarine than a Collins class submarine. Are they now costing around $8 billion each in Australian dollars to build, to manufacture. So that goes to the complexity of them. Uh, nuclear powered submarines are often compared to the International Space Station with the level of technology that space shuttles and nuclear powered submarines are basically equally as complex and advanced as each other. So we saw this, for example, in the control room of the USS Minnesota that we were on, uh, Virginia class submarines were the first in the world not to have periscopes, which are such an iconic, recognizable part of a submarine. They don't have that. They have much more advanced technology that don't require you to stick something so far into the air and make yourself visible, which really undermines a key aspect of being a submarine, which is being stealthy and hard to find. You could see the the video surveillance that the submarine had. We saw the people listening to the electromagnetic waves. They were saying the submariners were saying how they could hear the dolphins and whales and a merchant ships approaching. So the technology really is incredible. We saw the torpedo tube room where weapons would be fired. These ships have a lot of potent equipment and weapons in them as well. And then there's just the sheer fact that unlike the diesel powered conventional submarines that Australia has had till now, these submarines don't need to be refueled because of the nuclear reactor. The only reason they need to come back to the surface. It is to replenish the food supply, and that changes the nature of what a submarine can do. If you can stay undetected for that long. And they can travel a lot further, a lot faster, for a lot longer. And that changes the game really militarily for the Australian Navy.

Mhm. And we could see this when we were on there. The level of technology certainly is more advanced on a Virginia class submarine than a Collins class submarine. Are they now costing around $8 billion each in Australian dollars to build, to manufacture. So that goes to the complexity of them. Uh, nuclear powered submarines are often compared to the International Space Station with the level of technology that space shuttles and nuclear powered submarines are basically equally as complex and advanced as each other. So we saw this, for example, in the control room of the USS Minnesota that we were on, uh, Virginia class submarines were the first in the world not to have periscopes, which are such an iconic, recognizable part of a submarine. They don't have that. They have much more advanced technology that don't require you to stick something so far into the air and make yourself visible, which really undermines a key aspect of being a submarine, which is being stealthy and hard to find. You could see the the video surveillance that the submarine had. We saw the people listening to the electromagnetic waves. They were saying the submariners were saying how they could hear the dolphins and whales and a merchant ships approaching. So the technology really is incredible. We saw the torpedo tube room where weapons would be fired. These ships have a lot of potent equipment and weapons in them as well. And then there's just the sheer fact that unlike the diesel powered conventional submarines that Australia has had till now, these submarines don't need to be refueled because of the nuclear reactor. The only reason they need to come back to the surface. It is to replenish the food supply, and that changes the nature of what a submarine can do. If you can stay undetected for that long. And they can travel a lot further, a lot faster, for a lot longer. And that changes the game really militarily for the Australian Navy.

We'll be back in a minute. Okay. But then why do we actually need them? I mean, do we need them?

We'll be back in a minute. Okay. But then why do we actually need them? I mean, do we need them?

So the argument from the government, from the Navy, you hear, is that Australia is a huge island continent. There's no capability more important for us than submarines. Ships have always played a very important role in the Navy warships, and we're still investing in those. But we've seen with modern warfare, including in Ukraine, that surface ships are incredibly vulnerable now. A drone warfare has changed the game entirely. Many people discuss surface ships now as kind of floating turkeys. They're ready to be taken out pretty easily by an enemy, whereas submarines are still very stealthy and hard to know where they are. For example, we had a lot of discussion recently about the Chinese Naval Task Group A circumnavigating Australia.

So the argument from the government, from the Navy, you hear, is that Australia is a huge island continent. There's no capability more important for us than submarines. Ships have always played a very important role in the Navy warships, and we're still investing in those. But we've seen with modern warfare, including in Ukraine, that surface ships are incredibly vulnerable now. A drone warfare has changed the game entirely. Many people discuss surface ships now as kind of floating turkeys. They're ready to be taken out pretty easily by an enemy, whereas submarines are still very stealthy and hard to know where they are. For example, we had a lot of discussion recently about the Chinese Naval Task Group A circumnavigating Australia.

Lurking in waters off Sydney. An unusual sight. Three Chinese military ships travelling further south than they ever have before, carrying out a live fire exercise in the Tasman Sea, 300 nautical miles off the Australian coast.

Lurking in waters off Sydney. An unusual sight. Three Chinese military ships travelling further south than they ever have before, carrying out a live fire exercise in the Tasman Sea, 300 nautical miles off the Australian coast.

We don't know whether there was a nuclear powered submarine accompanying those ships or not. Many people say it's incredibly likely that there would be. But, uh, defence officials have themselves said they don't know.

We don't know whether there was a nuclear powered submarine accompanying those ships or not. Many people say it's incredibly likely that there would be. But, uh, defence officials have themselves said they don't know.

Australia had no idea the ships had opened fire. Instead, it was the pilot of a commercial passenger jet who first sounded the alarm.

Australia had no idea the ships had opened fire. Instead, it was the pilot of a commercial passenger jet who first sounded the alarm.

So that shows the stealthiness of a submarine. And if we're looking in Australia at a region that's becoming more contested. The Chinese military clearly wants to have more of a role in our part of the world. The argument is that our nation should have the best possible submarines. There's a bigger debate, though, about the strategic nature of aukus. If we do need nuclear powered submarines. Do they need to come from America? So it really goes to a very old debate about what is the Australian Defence Force for? Is it about narrow protection of our continent, or is it about promoting peace and security and helping our partners in the much wider world?

So that shows the stealthiness of a submarine. And if we're looking in Australia at a region that's becoming more contested. The Chinese military clearly wants to have more of a role in our part of the world. The argument is that our nation should have the best possible submarines. There's a bigger debate, though, about the strategic nature of aukus. If we do need nuclear powered submarines. Do they need to come from America? So it really goes to a very old debate about what is the Australian Defence Force for? Is it about narrow protection of our continent, or is it about promoting peace and security and helping our partners in the much wider world?

And Matt, I did want to ask you about the controversial nature of this entire Aukus pact because it has a bit of a controversial history. So can you just briefly take us back to, I guess, the beginnings? You know, we were supposed to actually be partnering with the French, weren't we?

And Matt, I did want to ask you about the controversial nature of this entire Aukus pact because it has a bit of a controversial history. So can you just briefly take us back to, I guess, the beginnings? You know, we were supposed to actually be partnering with the French, weren't we?

Yes. Well, Australia's a history of submarine procurement since the Collins class has been pretty ill fated. We've pursued programs with different partners. There was discussion about buying submarines from Japan in the Abbott era that fell apart. Then in the Turnbull era, we opted for the French and the submarines they had to offer. There were definitely problems with the way that was going. There were frustrations about how long it was taking and blowouts in cost. And then we woke up in a September 2021 to news of this highly secretive Aukus pact that it had been done at the most high levels, with very few people knowing about it that we were locked in. We were cancelling the contract with the French and we were going down this entirely new path. And then the debate has become even more enlivened, I think, since the arrival of Donald Trump back to the white House.

Yes. Well, Australia's a history of submarine procurement since the Collins class has been pretty ill fated. We've pursued programs with different partners. There was discussion about buying submarines from Japan in the Abbott era that fell apart. Then in the Turnbull era, we opted for the French and the submarines they had to offer. There were definitely problems with the way that was going. There were frustrations about how long it was taking and blowouts in cost. And then we woke up in a September 2021 to news of this highly secretive Aukus pact that it had been done at the most high levels, with very few people knowing about it that we were locked in. We were cancelling the contract with the French and we were going down this entirely new path. And then the debate has become even more enlivened, I think, since the arrival of Donald Trump back to the white House.

Well, I really want to ask you that because I think a lot of us saw, you know, with great interest the press conference that Donald Trump gave just the other day. Someone asked him, what about Aukus? He didn't seem to know what that meant. So I guess how much of the debate has changed since his arrival?

Well, I really want to ask you that because I think a lot of us saw, you know, with great interest the press conference that Donald Trump gave just the other day. Someone asked him, what about Aukus? He didn't seem to know what that meant. So I guess how much of the debate has changed since his arrival?

Well, there are there are two sides to it, really. I think on the one hand, the Trump administration is supportive of aukus from everything they've said and everything we know. The new US defence secretary has said that he supports Aukus. Our defence minister, Richard Marles, was right over there on a plane very early, the first person to meet him since he was sworn in, Pete Hegseth. So there's been no word from the Trump administration that they want to scrap it, that they want to renegotiate it. Then on the other side, Aukus is underlined by a huge amount of trust, by a huge amount of a commitment. And we've seen from Donald Trump that in many cases he can't be relied upon. He can't be trusted. You can look at a country like Ukraine and how everything has turned around there. You can look at how a close ally like Canada is being treated. And we saw the decision not to grant Australia an exemption on steel and aluminum tariffs. So what many Australians are asking at a broader level is do we want to be so tied so closely to America at this time when such a volatile figure is there? And even when Trump goes in four years, as he is scheduled to do, will America ever be the same again? Will we ever be able to rely on American Aukus really locks us in with the United States. So what we're hearing from people like former chief of the Defence Force, Chris Barrie is it's time for a plan B, it's time for the government to come up with some other ideas for our submarine capability. What do we really want them to do? What military role do we want them to serve, and to see if there's a better offer on the table than Aukus.

Well, there are there are two sides to it, really. I think on the one hand, the Trump administration is supportive of aukus from everything they've said and everything we know. The new US defence secretary has said that he supports Aukus. Our defence minister, Richard Marles, was right over there on a plane very early, the first person to meet him since he was sworn in, Pete Hegseth. So there's been no word from the Trump administration that they want to scrap it, that they want to renegotiate it. Then on the other side, Aukus is underlined by a huge amount of trust, by a huge amount of a commitment. And we've seen from Donald Trump that in many cases he can't be relied upon. He can't be trusted. You can look at a country like Ukraine and how everything has turned around there. You can look at how a close ally like Canada is being treated. And we saw the decision not to grant Australia an exemption on steel and aluminum tariffs. So what many Australians are asking at a broader level is do we want to be so tied so closely to America at this time when such a volatile figure is there? And even when Trump goes in four years, as he is scheduled to do, will America ever be the same again? Will we ever be able to rely on American Aukus really locks us in with the United States. So what we're hearing from people like former chief of the Defence Force, Chris Barrie is it's time for a plan B, it's time for the government to come up with some other ideas for our submarine capability. What do we really want them to do? What military role do we want them to serve, and to see if there's a better offer on the table than Aukus.

We'll definitely something to watch. So thank you so much, Matt, for your time.

We'll definitely something to watch. So thank you so much, Matt, for your time.

Always a pleasure.

Always a pleasure.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom Mackendrick is our head of audio. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Forward slash, subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom Mackendrick is our head of audio. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Forward slash, subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.