It's episode fifty three of Off Course with Claude Harmon, comes to you every Wednesday. This week's guest Jay Hass, the all time cuts leader on the PGA Tour five hundred and ninety two cuts. He just made the cut in Zurich as a sixty eight year old with his son Bill Hass, and UM, I thought it would be a great opportunity to get his take. Listen. I've known Jay the majority of my really my life, and um, he's like a member of the Harmon family and such an amazing player, such an amazing record, and um, it's a really really good listen into um one of the old school guys on the PGA Tour. Now you know he had a ton of success on the Champions Tour, but to get his take on on making a cut at age sixty eight really cool stuff, and just to kind of get his take on golf, because the guy has been one of the most consistent players the PGA Tour has ever had. So before we get to the interview, it's time to talk Cobra Puma Golf. The new King Forge Tech irons are available for pre order at Cobra golf dot com. You've heard me talk for a couple of weeks. Now, these new addition irons went straight into my bag. The design team at Cobra focused on three significant improvements which make a huge difference. A five step forged body and face, a sleeker top line with reduced offset, and a lighter, softer foam for improved sound and feel. They're available in one length, which is the set that I use, and you can also get them in normal variable length. These new irons, let me tell you, these new irons, they're great. I really really like them and they are officially available for pre sale. Now head over to Cobra golf dot com to learn more. That's Cobra golf dot com. Now let's get to the inner you with Jay hass I guess this week is Jay hass J You've done so many amazing things in the game of golf. You've you've you've won on the PGA Tour, you've won on the Champions Tour, you've won majors on the Champions Tour. Out of all the things that you've gotten to do, making the cut at Zurich with your son, I mean, what was that experience like for you? Uh? Hard to put into words, really I didn't think I'd ever play another PJ Tour event. Six or seven weeks ago. Bill asked me if I wanted to play, and I tried to talk him out of it. I said, you need a better partner than me. Don't waste a week on me and all that. But I'm so glad I did it. And you know, as any parent can attest, there's just nothing like watching your kids do something well that they love to do. And so just to be a part of that, part of that event, part of the team with Bill, we don't get to be partners often, but it was a week that I'll never forget. Um making the cut was icing on the cake. Just to be out there with him, watching all those great players. Pretty incredible. You said that, Um, it's watching him. He had the two putt, He had a four ft or two for you guys to make the cut, you said, one of the most nervous experiences of your career, and you've had a lot of those. Yeah, I didn't hit a very good third shot in there as the alternate shot on Friday, which is a tough format any time. And now he's got a partner who hits it about forty or fifty yards shorter than everyone else, and so I put a lot of pressure on him in that regard. But we got to eighteen and I didn't hit a very good drive and the bunker. He got it out there pretty good. And I'm trying to hit this eight iron water to the right, wind blowing. I wanted to get it in there. I was hoping for twenty ft or less, just so he didn't have to struggle too much. And I hit this fat coal over to the left I think he had or so. And as I'm watching him putt, I'm just hoping that I'm gonna go up there with one foot and just tap it in, you know, from six inches away. But when the balls rolling, I said, and I don't think that's getting there. And it came up probably just under five ft maybe uh four and a half feet or so, and I kind of thought that's what it was gonna come down to. You know. I was gonna have to step up, I guess. And I just told myself just hit it solid, just make sure you keep your head steady. And my hands were shaking. I've seen a video of it from Luckily it was from my backside, so I couldn't see my hand shaking, but somehow the whole reached out and caught it. And it was a pretty pretty cool thing for us to make to the weekend. I saw you the week before it, Hilton had You know, you're sixty eight years old, You're still you know, you still play occasionally. But to be back on the PGA tour, I mean, it's one thing to stand on the driving range and and watch these guys hit balls and then go outside the ropes and watch you know, your son Bill play, But when you're actually inside the ropes doing the exact same thing, what do you notice about the modern game today and twenty I mean, who did you guys get paired with? What were the players that you guys got to play alongside? And a great pairing our our first two rounds with Charlie Hoffman and Nick Wattney. And Nick Watney is kind of like our third son. It seems like he and Bill have competed against each other all through college and we, uh, we've had him over to dinner a bunch. And I didn't know Charlie quite as well, but you certainly know him. He's one of the older players. I guess you'd say on the PGA Tour. But the three of them hit it about the same distance, and you know, thirty forty buy me on every hole. But that was fortunate to to get to play with guys that I that we knew. I guess at least it was. And the thing I noticed is certainly the distance the length that these guys can hit it. There's no hole really that plays too long for him, maybe too narrow, maybe the pins are certain places or whatever. But that being said, I think the modern game now is fired at the flags. There's no doesn't see many guys play safe anymore. They shoot it every single flag, um, no matter what whatever club they have in their hands, they're going for it and feel like if they're on, they're gonna shoot sixties six and if they're not, you know, maybe seventy one, two or three, but eventually they're gonna get it. So I think that's a little bit of difference that I see from say, thirty forty years ago, players who were much more conservative, I think, and just didn't have a mindset that they needed to shoot sixty four and fives every day. Would you say that the difference, I mean, you grew up in an era to where accuracy was everything. Your game was built around hitting a lot of fairways, hitting a lot of greens. And you know, even maybe twenty years ago, you know a guy like Nick Faldo who was as big and as tall as you know, maybe even bigger than a guy like Dustin Johnson Foaldo. It was all about accuracy hitting. The great players of your generation, Jay, were ball strikers. They were elite ball strikers. Yes, you had some guys to get hit the golf ball a long way, but I look at that. You know that famous eight three Ryder Cup team that you were on at Palm Beach Gardens. You've got Jack Nicholas Is the captain, Lanny Watkins, Ray Floyd, Tom Kite, Fuzzy Zeller, Ben Crenshaw, Curtis, Tom Watson, Calvin Pete. They were some of, if not the best, elite ball strikers. They were known for that. And as you said, the modern game now is they basically hit driver everywhere right and there aren't any flags that they feel like they can't go out. How do you think, do you think the technology the ball or do you just think that the game is evolved to where if you're not doing that you're behind the eight ball because everybody else is. They are all great points. I think right at the two thousand, two thousand one, when the probi one came out and that type of ball was in vogue, I think the the numbers jumped quite a bit. Uh. Technology certainly has played a big role in the players that you mentioned in that eight three Ryder Cup. I think that's just the way we had to play, is nobody could crash it out there very far. I think to seventy was a huge benchmark that back in the eighties or so that that was not many guys hit it to seventy, and so if you were two fifty in the middle of the pack, you really weren't giving up that much. Now, if you're too ninety, your middle of the pack and guys are hitting, and so it's a big, big difference. As far as the way the guys play, I'm not sure when that kind of change, whether it was I would say definitely in the last twenty years, maybe even the last fifteen or ten. Where the guys have played I say with their hair on fire, you know, they just shoot at everything and hitting it in the rough is not as penal maybe as it once was. We just had to drive it in a fair way, you know what a four and fifty yard of old If you hit it to fifty, you still had two hundred left. And if you were playing out of the rough, that was not a good formula for low scoring. So I do think that I kind of equate golf in tennis a little bit. You see the old videos during the wooden racket days of how elegant the players played. You know, I just kind of glided across the court and hit these beautiful back hands and you know, just I won't say dinked it, but had a lot of cuts, a lot of spin shots and everything, great net play, and now it's just serving, you know, win a point. And golfs a little bit like that. I think the swings of you know, thirty forty years ago were much more elegant and again kind of just a product of the times of what the equipment dictated. And now, you know, the guys take a swing, it might be their last swing, you know, at least it would if if I swung that hard, I'd be on the ground and they'd be it for me. How much do you think agronomy has changed in the way they set golf courses up from when you know, you came on tour in the in the mid seventies, you won your first tournament out in San Diego. In My dad talks a lot about how the golf course is unless it was a major. The green speeds, you know, at a regular PGA Tour event now and the way that they tuck pin positions on Thursdays now or the way maybe they used to on Sundays. Right, Yeah, that's a great point. A lot of people don't think about the agronomy part of it and the condition of the golf course. Used to be a hundred percent of us lord steal spikes and now there's very few guys on the p g A Tour or Champions Tour for that matter, play with the feel spikes so not and it doesn't matter because you can knock down spike marks. But you think about a hundred and fifty guys walking over a green. Now you've got a green that looks like a battlefield sort of, and three and four footers are difficult. Now that you mentioned the speed of the greens, I think the advent of these great motors that they have now and how to grow grass, and they can get it just as clean and as sharp as humanly possible, and so the ball rolls terrific. And and again, you know you're talking about the pins that are tucked. I don't think the guys think about a tucked pin anymore. They again, they just shoot right at it. And certainly they're hitting less clubs. You know. Again, last week I was hitting hybrids, four or five six irons into holes. And these guys are you know, like I said, forty and fifty buy me off the tea, and they're plus they're an iron or two longer than me. So now I'm hitting the five, they're hitting the nine iron, you know, or a wedge. So it's the hit. The pins are hardly hidden unless the pin is just on an edge where it's you know, water to the side or something. Mostly guys just fire right at it. Five hundred and ninety two cuts. I mean, I remember we were I think we were in Ireland at Mount Juliet and it was when your son Bill was you know, he was wake for us. He was, you know, an all American, you know, tons of buzz and I asked you, you know, you must be really proud, and he's an amazing player. And he said, you know, he is an amazing player, but he comes home from college with a bunch of these guys that do the same thing that you're saying that they did last week. They hit it miles past you. But you said, you know what, they don't really beat me that often. And this was in two thousand three or two thousand four, and I said to you, why do you think that is? And you can we're hitting some balls on the range there. I think Tiger won that year and he said, you know, I don't know, But you said, when I was young, I just developed a lifetime hatred of making Bogey's. And you said, I just think I hate making bogis more than they do. Where does that? Because my only called Billy, who county for you forever, Billy said that. He said Bogey's would would literally eat you a lot, not doubles and triple bogus. He said, you would get so mad at making double bogus. Where do you think that came from? I'm not too sure where that came from. I just think it's my competitive nature. I want to succeed. I feel like I can when I get over a shot, I feel like I'm going to get a good shot. And you know, you you talked about some of the younger guys there in college guys, and I think there's a difference between uh, you know, hitting golf shots and playing golf. And it's like the picture that can throw at ninety eight but can't pitch, you know, it doesn't know how to control a game or something like that. I do think that they're there are a ton of guys who on the range you watch him hit, and you know, how does that guy not win every other week? But there is something to to scoring and shooting a decent score when you don't have it. You know, don't not turning a seventy two into a seventy six, turning a seventy four into a seventy that's what you that's when you learn how to play. I guess and you know, from my early days when we first got our cards back in the seventies, it was top sixty and you were a Monday qualifier if you were on the tour, and so you had to learn number one, how to Monday qualify, how to get in the term, and then number two and all important was making the cut. And so that meant you didn't have to qualify the following Monday. You were in the next week. So that was kind of my mindset to make this cut. And I knew that bogie's uh many bogies was not a formula for making the cut. So I don't know. I just uh, I missed a shot, just messing around the backyard shooting free throws my grandson and I get pissed. So uh, I don't think you can teach that. It's just me. Um. The year you turned you won your first PGA tourvent seventy. I went back and looked total purse for the PGA Tour that year was ten million dollars. In two it's it's four hundred eighty one million dollars. Do you think that the money that they play for now, you can get going bad on Friday, you know you're gonna miss the cut, and you can just say, you know what, screw it, I'll play next week. I've got another chance next week. I can get hot next week because there's so much money available now that maybe that drive to grind every single week, I mean the one my dad. It drives my dad crazy. Guys that win a golf tournament and then they're gonna take three weeks off. It drives him not obviously, when you back in the day when you were winning, the last thing you would have ever thought of was taken time off. I do think that when you're playing well, when you do win a tournament, that's the best time to win another one because everything is going your way. You're full of confidence obviously playing well, so why not go out there. But I was always one to go play. I'd love to play. I love to compete. The guys don't play as much as most of us played back in the sixties, seventies, eighties. Even there, the money I think has changed to the attitudes a little bit. But at the same time, there were guys in my era early on who you could see kind of throwing the challenges out the heck with it, I'll get it next week. There were just, uh, you know, the best players. I think I would fight to the finish, you know, and some of my best hitting, my best tea green golf came missing a cut and learning something in the last few holes for the following week, you know. So I just think you have to run through the tape there at the finish line. You can't ever say oh the heck with it, And I won't say I was, you know, A committed every single week when I was finishing, but it was again in just a different mindset. The guys had to play a lot of money. You had to play a lot of terms because the money wasn't that great, and you know, I can think of many times finishing and winning twelve, you know, and that doesn't add up very quickly. And I do think that, you know, when you the money that you just talked about, was that fifty times more money than what we played for, So that's a that's a big, big jump. The cost of living has not gone up that much. So it's hard for the guys, I think too, to stay motivated. Maybe I do hear a lot of guys saying, no, I'm gonna play til I'm forty and then that's it. I'm done, And I'm thinking, well, what are you gonna do after that? After your forty birthday? You know, I mean, it's why most of the guys play, and the money's terrific, but the competition. They just love to compete, and that's uh, that's me. I think. One of the things I think we're seeing in this in the current game JA now is there's no paying your dues, apprenticeship, going out on tour and figuring out how to win. You know, you got to spend to three years learning the golf course. We see these young kids, Jay, come out year on year and just win early. There's they go from college to winning. You had an unbelievable college career at wake Forest National Championship team in seventy you won the individual. You and Curtis were part of a team back then that they said was part of the greatest team, you know, in history. But we see these kids come out now, Jay, and there's just zero fear when you look at that. How do you look back at the time that you went out and what you were feeling when you got out on tour coming out of college versus the way these kids come out now, and it's just like, yeah, I was good in college and I'll be good in the pros. I couldn't agree more. I think that I certainly wasn't ready when I came out and watched the best players in the world. I was far from their talent and their experience. Obviously, I think today's players are just more seasoned, whether they play more tournaments when their juniors, whether the college game is that much better. You know, when we played, they were probably six or eight schools that really promoted golf. There was only a couple maybe in the A, C. C. And now almost across the board you've got fifty or sixty schools that really put some funding behind the golf program. So the guys learned to compete maybe at a higher level sooner than than we did. Junior golf. Shoot that I didn't play three or four tournaments a year, and and they were just local tournaments. I grew up near the St. Louis area, and so you know, we play inner club matches, play the district singlist, district tournament. I maybe traveled to Chicago for an event one time, and then if I qualified for the National Junior that was kind of it. And now with the A, J, G, A and a lot of other junior events, these kids are playing twenty and thirty tournaments every single year when they're twelve and thirteen years old. So perhaps their timetable is moving up a little bit. And you know, they they certainly looked more ready. You know, you look at Jordan's three majors already and I guess he's in his late twenties now, but it seems like he's still only about fifteen. And so many of the top players in the world now are are in their twenties, and that is flipped quite a bit, probably a ten year difference, I would say, from say the seventies or eighties until now. Uh, if you took the average age of the top twenty players in the world, I bet there's a good tenure difference. And I just think they're more prepared. And then the young guys see the other young guys playing well and they said, well, I beat that guy when I was playing in you know, Oklahoma or wherever I played. Uh. It just gives them more encouragement that they can do it as well. So we're going to take a quick break to talk about Rep Soto. They are back supporting the podcast. You've heard me talk about them earlier this year. It's one of my favorite products. It's a mobile launch monitor. You can get for a fraction of what some of the other launch monitors cost. It's portable, you can use an indoors outdoors anywhere you practice. Rap Soto m l M is going to give you all the matrix you need distance, ball speed, clubhead speed, launch angle. It's the same data all the pros are looking at. And now there's new data visualization as well. The new shot Dispersion feature has a visual overlay of every shot you hit on the range, color coded for every club with pinpoint distance and accuracy. You can also get some really cool graphs and charts to help you practice smarter, which is something you're always going to hear me talk about. We're giving my listeners a code to try out. Go to wrap sodo dot com backslash off course and use the code off course or one dollars off your purchase. Again, that's the code off course or one dollars off at rap sodo dot com Backslash off Course. And now let's get back to the interview with Jay. Awesome this run that's Scotty Scheffler's on right now. I mean it is, and I mean for someone that played, you know how difficult it is. You know how difficult it is to keep the momentum going. What do you make of this? I mean, this is we just haven't I don't think we've seen this since it's a tiger esque type run, throwing in not only winning tournaments, then winning a big w g C. But then to throw in a major and throw in winning at Augusta. It's it's unbelievable what he's doing. One of the best runs in recent memories, Like you said, Tigers. And the thing I like about Scottie is that he doesn't have a say, a cookie cutter swing. I mean, it's kind of his own. Obviously, he's got an instructor, and he's worked hard, and from what I hear, he won I don't know, seventy junior tournaments or something. So here's a guy who's I don't care what level you play at. If you can fin is the deal. If you can close the deal, then there's something to you inside. You know, you know how to win, how to close it. So he's certainly proven that. And I actually caddied for Bill and Jackson Mississippi a couple of years ago, and he played with Scotty the last day and he was very impressive. But you know, you wouldn't say, well, this kid is gonna be number one in the world in ten minutes, you know. I mean, he's just all of a sudden has just uh, each time he's had a chance, he's closed the deal, which is very impressive. He hasn't spent the bit at all coming down the stretch. And you know, there was a to my point about Cookie Cutter swing that I think that the sound wasn't on. But I was watching the Masters and they showed his footwork maybe, and he's got kind of old school of footwork. You know, his right foot kind of slips in there, and uh, you know his base, his foundation doesn't seem a textbook. But if you just didn't see the swinging, you just looked at the golf shot each time you go why this guy is good? When you're on this a run like he's on and and you as a player, you've gotten on it every We always talk about it's a cliche. You can't put a price tag on confidence, right, The confidence that builds from tournament ton when you are in runs like that and you've had them in your career, both on on the PGA Tour and on the PGA Tour champions What what is that feeling of confidence that that takes you from week to week, from shot to shot, that gives you that extra gear that maybe you didn't have three or four or five weeks a year earlier, I think it all depends for me hitting a good shot under pressure and then hitting the next good shot under pressure in that situation. Now, I will say that there's pressure on every single shot you hit, but some more than others. In the sense of a creek right up next to the green, the pin kind of tuck there, and you hit a heck of a shot from with a five iron for five yards for me and hit it in their ten feet, you know, all of a downhill, lie, say, are just some shot that you're not usually pulling off, and you do. And now the next time you have a difficult drive, say a tight hole out of bounds left, water to the right, and you just hit your best drive of the day. That starts to build momentum. I believe in my case, I feel like when I can hit the good shot under pressure time and again, then I feel like I can do it at any time. And that's when usually I get on a little bit of a run. So uh, you know, you look at the shots that Scotty has hit here recently, and I think his short game was a little bit overlooked, perhaps some of the up and downs that he made. Of course, the unbelievable shot at the third hole on Sunday for Bertie, looks like he's gonna make five or six, and he makes three. That that's kind of an outlier there, but a ton of other ones. On the very next goal, he hit a chip from over the green back left. He chipped it down a foot, you know, tap in uh, time and time again. When it looked like he had a chance to crack, he didn't. And so those all go into maybe he's not all a five iron shot from the fairway. It could be a bunker shot. It could be a little seventy five yard wedge shot from the fairway over over a bumper. So just hitting good shots under pressure is the whole key. Your son, Bill, I mean, he's he's had some tough times, do you do you feel like he's kind of moving in the right direction that his game he's and we are going to see kind of Bill get back to when he won the FedEx Cup in two thousand eleven. I mean he was on your President's Cup team. He you know, he always had a beautiful natural you know, just a swing that you know, my uncle Billy always said, looked like it was unencumbered by thought. You know, he just put the golf club in a good position turned through. Um, can you when you watch him play, can you give him any advice? Do you look at some of the things that he used to do and and think maybe he could get back to that. Where do you think his game is? Yeah, I do think that he's he's turned somewhat of a corner. He's uh, he's shooting some better scores. He's shooting a good many scores in the sixties. I think he's made seven straight cuts now, but he hasn't finished the weeks off. You know, he's kind of backed up a little bit on the weekend, which is a little bit unusual because you know a lot of times in my case, like I said, making the cut was so important it kind of gave me confidence going to the weekend. But I do think that builds a lot like me in the sense of hitting good shots under pressure. Is that fuels him? And he might say that's kind of simplifying everything, But it might be a shot that just doesn't look that hard, but to us, to a certain person's eye, it is. And so when you can start pulling those off time and again is when you start shooting better scores. Now, he Uh, you know one thing, I can't really put my finger on. His swing looks pretty much the same. You can break it down. You can look at into a video from fifteen years ago, from twelve years ago, and yet it looks a little bit different. But it doesn't. I wouldn't say, oh my god, he's got to stop doing that or try doing this. And and at the same time, Bill is kind of an artistic player. He's just now I wanna say, grip it and rip it. But you tell him, hit a high one here, Bill, and he hits it high. He's he hit a low one, hit a cut, hit a draw, and he does that. But I just don't think he's confident in what he's doing right now. And that just comes again with with hitting good shots when you need it most. That balance, Jay, that you were talking about, Um, I see it so much in all of the players that I'm lucky enough to work with that are trying to play junior golf, amateur golf, college, you know, trying to get on a tour somewhere, that balance between technique and execution. Um. Do you think that sometimes players can maybe overpractice and overdo their technique because you know, you grew up in an era to where it was far more I mean the swings of the great players of your generation. You know, like we talked about Lanny Raymond, Tom Kite, Crenshaw, Curtis. Every one of those golf swings were different, right. They had different grips, they had different setups, they had different everything. And you did mention the cookie cutter. There are a lot of you know, a lot of the golf swings on the PGA Tour now look similar. Right. How do you how is a player and for the people listening, for the people that are trying to play competitive how do you balance the technical part of things with still having to be able to play? Because I I was working with it a junior two days ago and I said, you know, when's your next tournament? He says, well, I'm not really playing that good right now, so I'm not playing in any tournaments and still until I start playing good. And I was like, how the hell is that gonna work for you? He said, how do you know you're if you're playing good or not if you're not playing in a tournament? Uh? And that's It's a great point you bring up that I think too many of the younger players and certainly a juniors, they spend too much time on the practice team. And I didn't have a great rain growing up, and I just like to play. I'd like to shoot a better score than I shot the day before. What was my low score? What was my best score that I needed to beat that day? And that was what I wanted to try to do. And I don't think there's anything quite like aiming a ball at a at a hole, you know, aiming at from the fairway off of a downhill lie aside hill lie, hitting a shot right then. It's not easy on the practice tea, but you've got a perfect lie, perfect uh, you know, technique and all this stuff, and there's no uh consequence for hitting a bad one on the practice tea. You know, you just rake another one over. Now there's a consequence to hitting a bad one the fifth hole with the water to the left. So I think that, yes, certain people, I do believe can, as the old saying, go paralysis from analysis. But everybody's a little different as well. I think some people can digest more information and be more technical. And you mentioned Nick Faldo a while ago, you know, he kind of changed his swing Curtis kind of changed his swing from college. He went to Jimmy Ballard and he was one of the longest hitters. He became one of the straightest, best ball strikers. So you can change and get technical, but I just don't think you can. You need You can't lose what artistry or what creativity, creativity that you have in your swing. You can't throw that out the window and just think mechanics because down the stretch and you when you have to get a great shot. And I always say, people ask what's a what's a good swing? What makes up a good swing? And I said, well, well, you're on the eighteenth hold Pebble Beach and you need to make a par, and you make a part that's a good swing. Number one, you got it too. The team cole one shot lead, and then you know, can you drive in the fairway? Can you get the second shot out there? Can you put the third on the green? And can you too put from par? That's a that's a good player. In my eyes. I don't care how he does it, and I think too many people do get wrapped up in the into swing positions and things like that. If it helps, great, But I think again, when when the time comes when you're trying to shoot a score, you can't think in those terms. And I do think though, going a little bit farther, I think some of the new modern swings are not as cookie cutter. You know, maybe there was a uh An era in there where every swing seemed to look the same. But you look at Jordan's now, he's kind of looks like he's trying something in his back swing, and you wouldn't say he's textbook in his swing. Certainly Scotty is not John rom very short closed, uh, Dustin Johnson. You know a lot of different swings in there. So I think maybe it's going back a little bit too. How how do we get it done the best way? And it is my way you grew up. One of the things I think that's different about the year that you grew up playing on the on the PGA tour versus now is there were kind of gun slinger type characters. Uh, kind of the mean guys Landy, Curtis Raymond, you know guys, they were kind of almost like hockey enforcers on the PGA tour, right you knew that they were. They weren't going to give anything. Do you think that we don't see a lot of that now. I mean, I look back, you know, at those type of players, and it used to be like they were the ones that you thought could win the US Open just because of their kind of character makeup. Right now, it seems like anybody can win the US Up. And I mean, it doesn't really matter what type of player you are. But you grew up in are to where there were certain players that they said could win the Masters. There were only a certain APO player that could win the US Open and then the Open championship. You had to have that. Do you agree with that? Yes, somewhat. I do think that, you know, the players that you mentioned all great players, But at the same time, there were probably some guys that had that same type attitude but just weren't as good as players. You know, and they just weren't They only lasted a short time. But I do think any of the guys that are winning now, they probably have that attitude of I'm better than you and I'm gonna show it to you. And you know, certainly the best players have that confidence that when they step on the te that they are capable of winning. Now, a guy like Raymond had a certain walk that in the in the in the look they said, you know, his eyes got big and he just basically, you stay out of my way. I'm coming through and I'm gonna beat you. And Landy h you know, probably one of the most confident, cocky, you would say, players of any era, but he could back it up. And you know, I didn't play as much golf with Landy early on aunt Lanty's four or five years older than me, but what I saw when I did play with him, he was pretty damn good. Didn't miss a shot hardly, wasn't afraid to try a shot either, And I think that's maybe what separates a lot of those guys is not not being afraid to take a shot, take a chance on the seventeen fold on the seventy first hole of a major tournament, and prude at the time that they were the best. The Greg Normant documentary was just on um um. I watched it. You know, the six Masters at Jack Nicholas one. You know, Greg was hugely involved in that. You were right in the hunts on the back nine on Sunday and eight six. You were one of the guys. You Tom Kite Sevy. I mean, everybody remembers, obviously Jack winning and obviously all the things that Greg Norman did to get a chance to win on eight teams to lose. But what do you remember, because that's one of the iconic major championships in golf history, that battle on Sunday, you were right in the mix of that. What do you remember about that that day? I do remember a little bit on the weekend. I played with Jack on Saturday and we were both playing nicely. I think he shot sixty nine, maybe I sat seventy seventy one or something in the third round, but both of us were kind of we're having good tournaments, but nothing. We weren't right there. But that proved to me that, you know, Jack had a knack of playing every shot the same, whether it was to win the tournament, or whether it was the first hole of the tournament, uh, seven iron from the middle of the fairway on the thirty six goal, whatever it was. He had a knack for playing each shot as it came. And you know that's I learned a lot from him just by observing. But that that weekend I remember playing very well, having having a great chance. I remember I he've hit a five iron into the water on the on the fifteen pole, maybe trying to go for the green. You say five iron. I thought you were a short hitter. It was playing very fast, which was beneficial to me. But I just remember being in that mix a little bit, and there's nothing like it down there at Augusta. To hear the roars. Uh. You know, Jack was behind me slightly, but I was maybe four or three or four holes ahead of him. But the roars that Augusta, you can tell, Oh, that was a birdie on two, and then it had to be Jack. That was a hole out on four. Uh, that was so and so you know, so it Uh, there's nothing like that event, nothing like the crowds at that event. It's the first major of the year, and just to be in the hunt. I do remember. I can't remember so many specific shot other than one I hit the water, but it uh, it's just fun to be in the mix at that time of the year at that event. You you made nineteen of twenty two cuts at Augusta. Um, what was it about that golf course from a major championship standpoint that suited your game so well? That's a great question. As well. I think that after they changed the grass on the greens, it used to be Bermuda overseated and so the greens were very firm, but they weren't that fast. And then when they changed him to Bent, the scores went higher and the par was a good score, and I was and I was a plot or sort of, I make par par par par part. It was the way I played, and I was decent in the US Open, decent in the p G a harder golf courses. So once they changed over, I want to say eighty three four somewhere and there they changed to Bend, four, five and six, I finished in the top six. I think those three years in a row right when the greens got changed over. So it just gave me a confidence that I could compete there. And if the course ever played somewhat fast, it helped me because it's shortened the course for me a little bit. If it was long, it was it was brutal and did not suit me at all. And you look at the guys who generally do well, they're they're they're pretty long hitters. Although you think about Jordan's it seems like he plays well every every year there, but Jack went in six, Tiger winning five, Phil win in three. Uh. You know, the longer hitter definitely has an advantage there. But I always just felt, you know, after that little run in the middle mid eighties, I just felt like the course suited me and it just inspired me every time I was there, every time I was on that practice tea, there was just, you know, nothing like it. And then of course your family's history there, and then my uncle Bob being a champion there. It's just it meant it meant a lot to me, and I tried my best to get into that champions locker room with my own name on the locker, but I couldn't quite pull it off. You mentioned your uncle Bob Goldbye, who recently passed away, and everybody calls him uncle Bob. I mean, what an amazing human being and an amazing character and life that he led. Yeah, he was. He was quite a guy. I mean, I owe so much to him about my golf. Started me in the game, taught me the game physically, but also mentally told me to watch the best players in the world. I think, rather than you know, he was a guy that dug it out of the dirt, as they say, there was not much video. You could film your swing, but you really didn't couldn't really study it and really break it down back in the fifties and sixties. And so he would just say, you know, watch Hailer, when watch Tom watch and watch Jack, watch Johnny Miller, watch all these great players and pick things out of their games that you like and want to make it your own. And and watch their attitude though, watch how they compete. And so I think that was the you know, golf wise, what I really learned it from Bob. But I tell you, he had some great stories, just like your grandfather. I tell you it was there's so much fun to hear all those old stories, and those guys would tell him again and again and again, and they were funny and engaging every single time I heard all those stories. And I'm certainly gonna miss Bob. You know, there's so many times, just in the last month and a half or so, when there's been a question about an old player or something I wanted to get on the phone and ask Bob about that guy, and I can't do it anymore. So just missing being around Mrs Mrs Boyce and his his encouragement and he uh, you know, he's lived and died now with Bill to watching the internet. He knows, he knew how to get on the internet and watched PGA Tour dot com and and watch all the shots and go on, the hell do you hit at forty feet with a wedge? You know? And so it was we we discussed that and just just sad to said he's gone. But what a great life, what a what a wonderful guy. He had one of my favorite um Uncle Bob stories and one of my favorite Master's story. You could tell it better than I can. When your your brother in law, Dillard pruett Um played for the first time at Augusta. He goes out with Bob as a past champion and and I'll let you take it from there. Well, you know he uh, he always loved playing with some of the younger guys, and obviously Dillard was, you know, part of the family. And I think Dillard end up playing three or four times at Augusta and that was that was very cool. But you know, he would he would go through holes and don't go there, and don't go there. And we you know, Billy and I we we would imitate Uncle Bob about how not to play the course. You know, just don't hit it in that bunker on the first hole. Can go ahead and hook it in the trees to the left because you can make a five from over there. You're gonna make a six or seven. If he had the bunker, then don't hook it on two down in the creek because he did dealt the ticket counters death there and on and on and on, and of course we embellished the story slightly as as it went forward, but it uh, you know, Dillard's head was spinning by the end of the day, I think. But it's just it's fun to to learn to listen to some of the old guys and how to play that. And you know, they remember that you just can't make a par on number one if you go to the left. That's just depth over there. So you learn the hard way a lot of times, and a lot of the old guys they just want to try to help you avoid pitfalls out down there. Jay, How for for players and junior golfers and people that are listening, there's there's an art to playing golf, right, and then there is practicing golf, and then there is playing golf. How do you think is the best way to become better at playing the game. I mean, you were inside the top twenty in the Official World Golf rankings when you're when you're in your fifties. I mean that type of longevity to have the career that you've had to win nine times on the PJ Tour, eighteen times on the Champions Tour. You're part of a winning Walker Cup, Ryder Cup President. That playing of the game. How how can people get better at learning and playing golf as opposed to practicing golf? Yeah, I do think that standing on the practice tea can be fulfilling at times. You know, you get get a rhythm with your driver and you hit it, hitting it great and everything, but it's a little bit shadow boxing. You know, you gotta get out there and you've got to put a scorecard in your back pocket, as they say, and what did you shoot? You know, don't tell me how far you hit to drive, don't tell me how many greens you hit? What did you shoot? And I do think that going out as a junior player, sometimes the hardest thing to do is to find some of your peers to play with. You know, you you if you're fifteen years old, now you're in high school and you're starting to play high school golf, and so that you're your pool to pick from your buddies. It's it's growing a little bit. But before that usually playing with your parents and they're kadalia a little bit. And so I do think that you know, going to play golf, you know, going out to shoot a score and learning that you might not have it every day. You're probably not going to have it every day. Very few times you're gonna be just totally on and you've got to learn how to get up and down, you know, from a tight lie, hitting an over a green, hitting the wrong club. Just again, learn how to score. And that's kind of an art in itself. I won't say it's a lost art. But the best players, I do think, even from a young age, they learn how to score, how to how to play golf as opposed to play golf swing. And certainly you want to learn if you need to learn to not lay it off or you know you're changing your grip, you move off the ball too much, you dip, whatever you're trying to not do in your golf swing, then yeah, maybe work things out and practice tea. But you've got to see if you can do it on the golf course in a situation. And you know, pressure situations aren't necessarily on the eighteen coal when you got a four footer, they might be just just playing a casual round on the third hole, or you uh again, you got a tight drive and you put it down the fairway and you go, Okay, I'm working on the right thing. I can do this and it's gonna help me as I go forward to shoot a score. When you were playing competitively and you got into those pressure situations, what did you rely on to try and help you focus? Was it mechanics, was it visual? Was it situational? How did you manage the pressure that that competitive golf, whether you're at the junior golf level, the amateur college or the professor. How do you maagine? What? What were the keys that helped you manage pressure? I think any and all the above that you mentioned I tried. But I do think that believe you have to believe in yourself. You have to believe that you can pull this shot off, and you can't be afraid of the situation. I think as I got older and I won more tournaments on the champions tour, and if you can believe that I got more confident as I turned fifty. I almost did because I kind of had the attitude of try to hit a good shot as opposed to trying not to hit a bad shot and embrace the situation of being nervous. And I tell Bill Jay whoever all the time that I would much rather be in the arena being nervous, can't spit, can't swallow, and can't feel the hands, all this different stuff than sitting on my couch and watching it. I'd rather be doing it than watching it. So if you if you'd rather be watching it, then you know it's probably not for you and you're probably not going to succeed when it comes time to hit a good shot when you need it most. So I just think you have to talk yourself into it mental gymnastics. I've done this a thousand times before, I can hit this shot, And you have to believe in yourself. Now you might not, but you still you have to believe that you can do it. Then you probably can't. If you're in those pressure situations, you you're a decent player and it means something to you. I think that's number one. If it means something to you, You're probably gonna be nervous about it. If it doesn't mean anything, then then it doesn't mean enough, and it's and it's you're not gonna feel a pressure you You had a very very unique golf swing, you know, it was always kind of your unique golf swing. You kind of picked the club up a little bit open. Do you think that if you would have grown up in this era that maybe another instructor, somebody would have tried to change that, because when I look at the older swings, we're starting to see more of it now. You mentioned Scotty Scheffler. I think Victor Hoblin is a little bit of a throwback. Matt Wolf is a little bit of a throwback. But do you think the role of technology in golf instruction maybe would have changed some of the great golf swings. Yeah, it could have certainly could have. I think that again, we grew up in an era where we didn't really see our swings, and my swing kind of evolved from one summer Bob came home and he said, boy, it looks like to me you're breaking the club. But your your cocking your wrist too quick, and your club's too close to your back in your back swing, he said, I want you to go back kind of dead wristed, you know, not break your wrist until the last moment in your back swing, get your hands higher. And so to me, not breaking my wrist meant kind of going kind of straight back and so not having any kind of rotation or not maybe being on plane as much. And when I first did it, he said, oh, that's beautiful. And so now he's gone for six weeks, and by the time he came back, I kind of gotten where it was going outside just a little bit. But I tell you, I played some of my best golf of my young career at that stage, and hitting it it was hitting it longer, had had more of an art, you know, hands higher and all that, and that's kind of where that swing, my my back swing came into play for me. And so I interpreted his you know, go back a little more dead risk, the late risk cock. I equated it to kind of going up you know, higher and uh and more upright, saying the back swing. And I've you know, tried to change it to become more aesthetic or to become more textbook and everything, and it just went every which way. So I just said, you know, it's a funny story that Billy tells. He was cattying for me at the bout Folk Tournament and we were at uh Laquinta and we're on the driving range in Lackington. I was kind of struggling a little bit. Bob was doing TV at the time, and he's watching me hit a few, and I'm hitting him kind of depths all over the place. And so some spectator, hey, Bob, Bob, come back here, and he goes, I can tell you what you're your nephews doing wrong. He said, he's taking it too far outside. And so of course that got Bob's you know, hair on the back of his neck stood up, and he you know, Papa Bear. He came to my defense and he says, well, you would have changed Palmer shut at the top and the curly Q finish and Miller Barber Sky right at the top of his swinging in Jack's flying right elbow, and Johnny Miller reversed to you to change all that. Trevino aimed fifty yards to the left and hit a cut, and Sam wing thirty yards of the right. He went through all these great players and this poor guy, he didn't know what to say after all this and stuff. That was the end of that conversation about changing my swinging. But it just again, it just what evolved. It is hard to say what would have happened had I had the technology that they have today. I'm man, I look at my swing. I think most players on the PGA Tour. And somebody said this to me a couple of weeks ago when I was out watching Bill at Hilton Head. He said, you know, none of these guys like their own swings. They like everyone else's swings. And that's true. It might have been you, uh, we were talking, but it's just funny how all the swings have a little bit different quirk, uh, and most of them do all kinds of great things and maybe one thing that they wish they didn't, But it's it's what your mind's eye sees. And you've done it for so many years and hitting so many balls that it's this hard to change it when it's under pressure. You know, you made a close to combine forty million dollars on the PJ Tour and the champions I think one of the underrated parts about your game that I always loved to watch Jay was the putting stroke that you had. It always had this beautiful rhythm. How much for you of putting is technique and how much of it is is art? Well, that's a that's a tough call there. I think that my putting stroke kind of emulated my long swing for so many years, and I went back kind of handle first and and then kind of dropped it in the slot, say, and it had a pause at the top of my swing to kind of put it into that slot to give it time. And my my putty stroke is very similar. You know Tom Watson landing. Watson is very quick, you know, direct to you know, boom boom, very very quick stroke and I try to do that, but that's so foreign to my inner tempo that that makes sense to me. And I always say that when I'm under pressure, my my stroke gets slower then faster, and I don't like that because, you know, the best cutters just seemed like they're very confident, they have a uh, just a positive hit on their ball, and mine sometimes I kind of I won't say decelerate, but it's just kind of no life on my stroke. And so, uh, probably two thousand one is when I ran in to Stand ugly, and I had known Stand for quite a few years. Not real great, but he kind of just made some sense to me in putting, and so it changed. I changed my technique to kind of more, uh what looks open to close, But in my mind's eye, it was just kind of keeping heir to the arc of my my stroke. I think I was more closed to open as a younger player, and I think I was an okay putter, but never great. And I think when I changed, I I won't say great, but I became good a lot of the time. And that kind of that was really the reason that in my late forties and early fifties that I played someone best Goll eighteen wins on the Champions Tour, three majors um that eight three Ryder Cup team on the European side. Tony Jacqueline was the captain. Nick Faldo Sevy Bernhard langer Ian wisdom. How can you put into words what Bernhard Langer is currently doing in not only the Champions Tour, but in the game of competitive golf. You've played with him for ever. It's unbelievable what he's been able to accomplish. It really is he seemingly as the same person he was fifteen year years ago. Physically the way he plays, Uh, you kind of go up and give him a pat on the shoulder in or in the gut or something in the mens rock hard, you know. He he says he doesn't play and practice much when he's home. I don't know about that, but he always seems to be ready. Uh he puts great, you know, with the big oar there. He just never seems to miss a meaningful putt. And that's saying something because here's a guy who I didn't really know that well. He played mostly his early career on the European Tour, and they said he had the yips three or four different times. And that's pretty incredible. That he arm locked a cross handed left hand low whatever you to say. He's tried it all, and so to to have beaten that and become, you know, one of the best putters that we've seen on our PGA Tour champions is pretty darn incredible. But he's been playing golf. I don't know. I think he turned professionally. He's about seventeen, so he's probably played more professional golf than I have. But he doesn't appear to be slowing down at all. A great Bernhard story. When he was first learning the game. I think he had a three iron. He told me he had about eight or ten balls, and he had a field that was about, I want to say, he said, eight hundred yards long or something. And he would hit these eight or ten three irons, and he would go find him and he'd hit him in the same direction, and he said he could hit it about three times, and then he would turn around and he would hit him three times back the other end. And that was you know, he said, they would go everywhere and he'd have to look for him the you know, it was high, high grass in this field and all that. But that's pretty cool that a guy starts that way. He didn't start on the first heat of beautifully manicured country club. He started in a field with one club with ten balls that were probably not very good, and became one of the greatest players ever played the game. That's kind of the opposite of the world I live in, because I have twelve year old kids coming and tell me their truck truck Man combined scores that they didn't bern Hard needed a combine to to to mow the grass down on the field, right. Uh. Great stuff. You know you mentioned Ian woos him on that three team. Uh, I saw a great thing. I don't even know who carried it, but it was maybe the the Fabulous five or the something. Have you seen that where it has Savy, Sandy lysle Bernhard Um, Nick and I can't remember who the other guy, but they go through there. They were all born the same year, uh in it and it shows kind of their childhood and all that. And and Loozy kind of the same thing. He lived on a farm and he said, I hit balls in the field and it was kind of high grass. He said, That's why I'm comfortable in the rough. So uh. But it's pretty cool to see how these guys have have risen to be all time greats and Hall of famers from different backgrounds and just shows it that you know, kind of really what's inside and it matters most and technique is one thing, but can you get it done when you need to. Lastly, you mentioned Nick Watney kind of being an adopted member of your family. I can't think of anybody. I'm fifty two years old. I'll be fifty three over the weekend. I've known you basically my entire life. I think, out of everybody that has been in the orbit of of the Harmon family, to me, you were always as much a part of our family as as anyone. How much has that influenced your life in your career? I mean, obviously the relationship you have with my uncle Billy. Your son Bill is named after him. My uncle Billy's got a son named ja. Um, you knew all the brothers, you've known my dad, you knew my grandfather. Um, what what was that like for you? Well? I do think that golf, in the professional golf world is kind of one big family in itself, but one person knows the next person as well, And I don't know, it's just there's a lot of togetherness, I suppose. But at the same time, you know, we we had a lot of the same background with your grandfather winning the Masters, my uncle winning the Masters. Uh. You know, you got four three uncles that their club pros. Uh. You know, grew up with the game, and it's just, you know, very very similar. That golf is kind of all I've known, and you know, the harm And family is synonymous with the game of golf, and you're starting with your grandfather at Wingfoot Thunderbird, uh and and tour golf as well and Great Tour Golf. So it's just in that regard, I think that I've been so blessed to have been around all these great people that have led the way. And I always say that we all need somebody to put their arm around us, to say this is the way you do it, son, uh, and don't deviate from that. And I was lucky to have my uncle Bob, and you're lucky to have your dad and your uncle's and your grandfather and all that. So it's just it's meant the world to me to be involved with was certainly Uncle Bob, but certainly the harm and family as well. Miss Dick. Every day I tell you, you know, we're here in Houston this week, and it's just can can think of many times going to dinner with him down here and just what a guy he was. So it's just again, but your dad has always said, you know, always felt like that I was the fifth brother and all that, and kind of on the same funny bone wavelength is as your uncle Billy. And we we talked probably every other day and text at least, and uh, we've we have a different relationship than you know, teacher, pro whatever, and more of a he says, I'm not as student and he's not the teacher. We're spar partners. He cost me. I always doubt and I always questioned what he's telling me, and uh, but it's been a wonderful relationship for sure. We were in Houston at a restaurant. I mean it's got to be in the last ten fifteen years, and we were having lunch and a bunch of people there and I can't remember if it was you, you got Billy going on something. You kept firing the same word, and Billy started laughing and he couldn't stop laughing. And every time he'd start laughing, you'd give him the line again, and he it was it was like he was going to fall over. He was laughing so hard. A couple of little kids, and you know, one of us gets the funny bone of the other one. And we never stopped. And I remember one time when Dick was alive and we were doing a pro am there and we went to some barbecue place and we were all really hungry, and Billy kept coughing but saying brisket at the same time, and and that was a funny situation, and uh, what what makes us laugh? You know, dumb stuff or like a couple of kids. Well, I think it was really really something special, not only for you and and Bill to get an opportunity to do what you did, but I think for those of us that got to watch you guys play and get to the Zurich and make to make the cut. Um, I didn't even know you were playing. And we were walking on the range and Hilton head and he said, I said, what are you up to when you play again? You said, I'm playing played next week with Bill and Hilton, And I mean in Zurich, said you're playing with Bill and Zurich. You think, I mean? It was It was a hell of a feat, super exciting, And every time I go to the Masters, I always remember that. In nine seven you took me over to the Part three course during the tournament and you we went fishing, and it is the only time I've ever been fishing. And like you said, he said, it's not really fishing here, it's catching because if you throw the throw the bait in, you're going to catch. But every time I go to Augusta j and they talk about the Part three. The first thing that pops into my head is I was I think I was a senior in high school and you taking me over to the Part three course during the tournament. We went down, we went fishing and I caught a fish and held it up. So I want to thank you for that. I appreciate you, um taking the time to talk to me. Like I said, you're as as much a part of our family as as anyone. And um, you know, congrats on on everything that you've been able to do because obviously doing this research and going through all of the stuff, Um, you're a pretty good player. Well again, I feel way ahead of the game here on what golf has given me. It's been a great ride and I don't want it to end. It's what would I do? You know again, I just love the competition. I loved last week. I love trying to get better, trying to hit a good shot, and that's, uh, that's what fuels us all. I think, you know, just the one on one can you do it at a time. But uh, congrats to you, Claud on all your successes as well. It's been fun watching you grow up when you said you're gonna be fifty two. Oh my god, No fifty three, fifty three. That dates us all there, loyal and you know, and in typical harm and fashion, my dad always tells me that I'm the worst teacher in the family, so I know I must be doing a good job well, you know, but Billy will always say that, how do how does Butch get to be number one in the world when he's the fourth best teacher in the family. So it's good, good natured vy. We all love to give every good all of this a little grief every now and then, but that just means we love you all right. Great to talk to you, Jay, I appreciate it, right, Claude, talk you soon. So that was a really cool interview with Jay Hass And you know, like I said, he's like a member of the family, so really really cool to get to talk to him. And I just love kind of listening to the old school guys. I mean, I'm I'm around some of the greatest players in the world that are currently playing, but to anytime you can get an opportunity to talk to someone them like Jay who has had such an amazing career, Um, it's a it's a really cool opportunity and I think there was a lot of really really cool stuff. Um let's get two questions. How quick are you to change a player's grip or is that a last resort? That's an interesting one. I mean, I certainly think with um, regular average golfers, UM, you can make some big changes in the in their grip. You know, a lot of players, you know, especially you know, if you're a right handed golfer, you've got that weak left hand and then that really really strong right hand, so the grip kind of rides very much down in the palm of the hands. And I'm not a huge fan of that because it's when players get their hands in the opposite directions. Personally, I think it's easier to play from a stronger grip because it can get the club face and a better position, you know, going back at the top, and then get the club in a really good position at impact. I would say that, Um, you know, rarely do we see a lot of players now, um, certainly at the elite tour level with weak grips. I think that is one of the changes. My dad talks about that all the time, that the modern players have a lot stronger grips, and you know, as the grips. As grips have gotten stronger, players are able to kind of rotate the body through impact. UM. I'm not a huge fan of a weak left hand, So if the grip, if I see a player that's got a really really weak left hand, I'm definitely gonna try and get that into a little bit stronger position. And UM, if you are going to make any sort of grip change, UH, some advice that I can give, do it first and foremost with short clubs. So if you're gonna try and strengthen your grip, it's going to be hard to do that with seven iron, It's going to be hard to do that with a driver. But if you can do that with UM, let's say a sand wedge or a lob wedge or a pitching wedge and just make some little, small, little half swings, that's a really really good UM way to change your grip up and get your grip in a good position. UM. How to hone a distance with fifty sixty degree wedges? UM want to turn into eight feet? I think if you've got access to a launch monitor, dialing in and figuring out how far you hit your distances, UM, that's to me. One of the biggest values UM of launch monitors is to get them and use them to figure out how far you not only hit all of your clubs, but to dial in your wedge distances. You know, man, I think some baseline wedge distances are, you know, figure out fifty seventy five yards. I think those are really really good baselines because you're gonna have a lot of wedge distances from there. If you don't have a launch monitor, you can get a range finder and you can take a an alignment rod on the driving range and go out, put it in the ground at and try and carry it that distance, and put it in the ground at fifty try and carry it that distance, and then put it in the ground it's seventy and try and carry it that distance. But having an idea of how you hit your wedges, I think a lot of players just don't practice distance control. So UM. One of the great things about UM launch monitor technology is UM you can use it to really really hone in your wedge distances. So if you're trying to hit the golf ball fifty yards, you can figure out if you're tending to be too far, or if you're tending not to to be far enough so if you're coming up short. So I think it's a really easy way to get dialed in on your wedges. And if you can do that, that's the way that you're going to try and figure out. You put towels on the ground, you can put hula hoops on the ground, and then just figure out what the yardage is that you're trying to hit and really really hone it um into that position. And um, I think it's a great way to do it. Recommendations for a coach starting out, that's a broad one. I mean, you've heard me talking about it before. I think one of the things that you want to do if you're an instructor and if you're trying to get into you know, instruction, if you're trying to get into coaching, is to read, listen, watch as many different instructors as you can, and try and get an idea of the things that you believe in the golf swing. UM. I think it's really important that as an instructor you have an idea of what you think is important and what helps players get better, not just what you would hear someone like myself say, or someone like Sean FOLI said, yes you can. You can grab and borrow and use some things you hear other people say. But at the end of the day, I think it's important that you as an instructor, you as a coach, have a really clear understanding as to what you feel as important in the golf swing, so that when your your students ask you and they're coming to see you, they can get a really really good idea of what it is that you teach and what it is that you want to work on. So getting a really good idea of the things that you believe help players get better or is hugely, hugely important. And then you've just got to stay and and give a lot of golf lessons. Um. You know I've done that. I've been teaching now for over twenty years, and you know I made a huge amount of mistakes earlier on in my career. So having a really good idea of what you want to try and get across, UM, work on your communication skills and and try and listen, you know, listen to podcasts like this one, listen to other people's podcast listen. You can go on YouTube and watch people give seminars stuff. But getting a really good broad base of knowledge and then saying, Okay, what do I want to try and work on with this player? What do I think can help this player get better? And I think it's an easy way, and I think it's a vital way to get better as an instructor. I want to thank everybody for listening. Um, you know, downloads have been really, really great. We're going to continue to have some great guests of course, with Claude Horman comes to you every Wednesday. We will see you next week.