This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains culturally insensitive language and violence. Something that I think that most people don't take into account is that, yes, I recorded the incident on my cell phone, but I also actually witnessed those cops and what they did to Niles with my own two eyes. And how would you describe what you saw? It was traumatizing. Yeah, it was traumatizing. And let's just say those cops acted like savages. Niles Hayes, who you remember from the first episode, was running an errand to pick up tickets to a basketball game when he gets pulled over by the police. The car he was driving, a seven Series BMW, belonged to a family friend, Jay Shaw. The following footage is from the policeman's body cam. Roll your window down all the way and I'm gonna need you to get off your cell phone. That's the voice of thirteen year police that are in Sergeant Place, license registration insurance. I was just trying to fix my dad and let him know that I got pulled over his license insurance. Please as Nile's hands as I d card over, Sergeant Places partner Officer Webb approaches the BMW's trunk. Can I ask you something? Why is your partner putting gloves on like he's about to get in a fight. Do you have registration and insurance? That's what I was trying to tell you. I'm not sure where the owner keeps it? You okay with me? Looking in the glove compartment, sir? Is this vehicle stolen? What's known? This is my dad's friend, his car, My father and the owner of the car. That Are you buying or selling drugs? Come on, man, answer the question. No, are you buying a something? Drugs? Are there any narcotics of any kind in the vehicle? Cocaine? Pills? No? Do you mind if reserves the vehicle? I do mind? Are you in possession of a firearm or any other weapon? Really? That's where you're going with this? Man? This is some bullshit. I'm gonna need you to step outside the vehicle right now. I'm trying to tell you the owner of the car is right there in that restaurant across the street. Hey, hands up on the dash. I have to put my hands up on the dash now, all right? All right, all right there there, keep him there. Why are you putting your hand on your car. Shut up so ridiculously outside the vehicle, slowly listen to me for a second. Stop jumping and conclusive. Hi, get out of the car now, screaming voice, you just heard that Sergeant places partner Officer web So here I am outside of Jason's forty two take in video of the building on my phone. That's Martin Sims, who you also remember from the previous episode is Jay Shaw's former sports agent. Now, this again is part of my attempt to make Jas think that I'm actually considering partnering up with him on the bar. But like I said, everything about this was a non starter. I mean from the gun vault to Jason's drinking and kit Let's be honest here, the restaurant business is a tough one as it is, and then you add in a middle aged former athlete with questionable executive decision making skills. Oh no, thank you, you were over it. I was, and Kate, I swear to you. I was literally thinking to myself, you know, Martin, you can just leave, you can just leave and just give Jason excuse later. Why didn't you? Because that's when I heard the commotion across the street the police. Yeah, and Basically, all I did was turn a hundred and eighty degrees and keep filming. Am I to arrest? Do you want to be No? I want you to stop assuming that I'm doing something wrong. Is that I'm a criminal? Mann? Stop acting like a criminal and comply? But how am I acting like a criminal? This is your final warning step outside of the vehicle. Don't sit man, this is why they need to defund y'all. Well, let's go. And then all of a sudden, I hear so offers a web bangs his baton into the window and at the same time starts and play starts punching the crap out of the mouse's face through the driver's side. And then that's when you just hear like web just destroyed the star window, a huge mouth out of the car like using bag rounds stands warning to the people. I didn't do anything. Start out, start out, and these these two cops are just taking terms like tea off on this poor kid just got him. So while all this is happening, right, I saw to reach back from one hand to open the rest of my door, and I called inside. I'm like you gotta see that. Wait, is that Marchael behind him. Joel comes out and immediately teas in on his son. Then Jay's yells out too, prompted by the hollering, you can see Officer Webb look across the street. He quickly reaches for the radio on his lapel progress respective of a five three copy that norm sending back up path. Attention l units you're intersections with Lass obviously the assistance and responding units, please identifying four five three frame responding coming there four five three freak. Then I remember feeling something like sort of whisp past me. In the next thing I know, I say, General running towards you know, his son and the police. Okay, but but as he's trying to get to his son, and he's trying to dodge from the crossing traffic by taking my phone and I zoom in just as Officer Webb slams his knee onto me, his face whetting all of these wings, falls home hard on the kid's jar that moler's not in his kid's mouth, and bounces onto the curb. And then after that, Sergeant Place just started crawling out back up back up bag. As both policemen clear away from Niles, Sergeant Place pulls his taser out and fires it like. I don't know if it's because they were focused on making sure they were keeping a safe distance from Niles as they taste them or what, But neither one of them saw Jerald coming Like a projectile. Gerald is his body with all the speed he can muster and to both police officers, which sends them all crashing to the ground. Then Gerald quickly rolls on top of Sergeant Place and began striking down on him with a flurry of rabid blows. Simultaneously, Officer Webbry groups from the fall and draws his gun. Then when that first shot rung out, j Sha recalls his reaction. My heart sunk because I thought, damn, they just shot g You thought Officer Web shot Gerald. Yeah, yeah I did. But it was weird because I hear the gun go off, and it's like everything froze for us Place second, that's when I realized that Sergeant Place at his gun out too. Why did everyone freeze because no one could believe what they were seeing, which was what Sergeant Plays just shot his own partner. And then you just see Officer Web drop straight down and it's like as soon as Officer Wells body hit the ground. Boom, freeze, frame was over. Everything started moving again, but like real fast in the video, Gerald immediately tries to wrestle Sergeant Places, gonna away from him. As the two continue their struggle for the firearm, another shot rings out, this one hitting Sergeant Placed in his right leg. Seizing the moment, Gerald rips the gun away from the now wounded Sergeant Place and he proceeds to whale on him with his sists and the policeman's own. So I just take off running towards now. Jason, in his infinite wisdom, dashes across the street as well to where all this madness is happening. Now. Now Gerald is beating the crap out of Sergeant Place and the other cop officers Web is all on the side, grabbing at a bloody wound on his neck. What about Niles? From what I could see, Niles was out the oils was still conscious. Martin was just too far away to hear what we heard. As I'm running up, she's just beating the ship out of sawd your place. And then I see him sort of rocked back, take a like keep about to shoot this dude, And that's when we both hear there right there. Did you did you here? Now? Says Damn To this day, I believe Gerald was gonna shoot that cop on the spot had he not heard his son call out. That split second gave Gerald palms and that's when I put my hands on him, and I say. In Martin's cell phone footage and in the surveillance video from outside the restaurant, we see Gerald peel his battered son off the sidewalk and carry him across the street over the door. You're in, Nora. We have a night night night chewing him over, down over, dick down cop in that fire tenor is on the way stand line intentional units. We have a nine ventura ball of art and Lazarus and let's requested as well respond well, hanging there so now here, surrounded by straight up Corntie. Obviously, Webb don't look like he's gonna make it. Sergeant Places shot up to at the end, I see Place crawling towards Webb's gun, which is lying right there on the sidewalk right. So now I'm thinking, if I let him get to that gun, who knows what my jumple. In Martin's video, we see Sergeant Place get within inches of his partner's straight firearm. When Jay's kicks the weapon out of reach, The former football player then hoist Sergeant Place over his shoulder and carries the wounded policeman towards the restaurant. As Jason runs through traffic towards this building, we can see in the restaurant surveillance camera that Jays also grabs Martin by the caller and pulls him along as well. Come what are you doing? Let my circle that. I asked Martin what he felt like. As the large ornately crafted doors at Jason's body, two sports bar and girl close behind them, I was disbelief, but at the same time it was all start to get the feeling that I was trapped. Now now'll come on, boy, who come at John that I'm carrying it? Sergeant place right, Gerald announce they already in the kitchen. Immediately I hear Gerald telling me to get some help. So I said, Sergeant place down and kind of you know, problem up against the wall. While I'm doing that, Martin starts free out, thinking of my face, James, what are you thinking? Answering Gerald's call, Jase leaves Martin Sergeant Place in the main bar area and crosses into the kitchen. Are you leaking you go to heavy lance? Yeah. When I walked into the kitchen, I've seen Niles laid up like that on the table. I just went't prepared for. I mean, I saw how it was constans beating on him, but I just didn't expect it to be as bad as it was. You know, can you tell us what you saw? One of his arms dislocated hanging towards the ground, but like wrong way and was not room chest at all. These belts bruises on it his face. Yeah, it's so spoiler. Yeah, yes, the address? Do you know the street number? Side? Oh yeah, it's sixty two six to thank you, thank you. Sorry, we already responding to that location and responsible shooting. Is that law he may have may not be okay, sorry, well we have that on the way. Are you inside the building? After calling, Jays goes back into the main area, where we see Martin pacing nervously back and forth. Sergeant Place is still propped against the wall and you can tell that he's in a lot of discomfort as he squirms uncomfortably from the bullet wound in his thigh. No, no more. In the video, we see Gerald dragged Sergeant Place towards the kitchen, where Niles convlesses, you cannot do that, Okay, this man is she stopped Martin in the face and it's not his hands down, And then he goes back to drag the policeman towards the kitchen. Right mine hops up and makes a bee line for the front door and opens it, and all of a sudden, all you go here was Kate and ship was so loud Eat literally sounded like the squad cars were driving into the bar over the door. Lucky you and him? What are you free to believe? Hill Martin? I did that? So, Martin, were you grateful that James told Gerald he was the one who brought Sergeant Place into the bar with you. As far as I was concerned, it was Jason's fault that I was in this messing the first place, So no, I was definitely not grateful. If anything, I was pissed. And then I look over and Gerald is waving a gun in my direction, like, oh, hell no, if anyone goes for that door again without my permission, I'm gonna shoot you. First, did you believe him that he would shoot me without a question? But he wasn't the only one I was worried about taking a bullet from what he's on him. All this is charge of place. Take a building, now take a building, now back back back. So James walked me through this. Who shot first? I ain't sa do with Gerald little police. Jason is lying if he says he doesn't remember who five first was? Gerald Martin recounts. Okay, let let me just tell exactly how it went down. Okay, First, the police announced themselves, then try to bust out the door and successfully. Generald shoots, and then the police they returned fire. Now this goes on for a been until Gerald runs out of AMMO. Sergeant Place notices. He calls onto the other cops. He's like, he's out, He's out, He's out. But remember Jason's gun vote that I was worried about. Well, guess who else remembered it? Gerald Bingo or like donkey going after that? So after trading a few shots, she goes into my office and come back out with the big boy. And when you said the boy, you mean my a off fifteen? What's the cops turn that day? He won't none, And luckily for them, he just fired one and shots it to the sea. So Martin, what were you thinking as bullets were flying back and forth? Did you did you think that you were going to die? Kate? You know, um, I felt like this is something I don't want to talk about. Ipposed to say question to Jace, But I'm like Martin, Jason was more cavalier about it. Well, you know, it's not the first time I've been shot at, been shot a bunch of times, but from the hood Cake. So if you had to rate this being shot at experience on a scale of this ship was a twenty. Because I take being shot at by some stick up kids and some jealous dude up in the club every day of the week, and twice on Sunday over a cop getting one shot off in my direction? What's up? What? One cops shoot to kill? Two they're really good at hitting the targets they aimed at. And three have you ever seen a practice target? It's black and it doesn't have anything for you to aim at except vitals. Now, we were just lucky that they were shooting blindly into walls and that the windows was covered. Otherwise I don't think i'd be here talking to you right now. I don't know what about Gerald. Do you think he was scared at all? You're so certain, let me explain something to you about Gerald Hayes. He's one of those dudes that has that switch, you know what I'm saying, And by the time there was gunfire, that switch was turned all the way up. Martin echoed Jason's assessment of Gerald. The best way I can describe Gerald in that moment is there was a look in his eyes that I simply have not seen on another human being in my life, and then scared the ship out of me. Look. I ain't trying to glamorize it or him, but jeez, a soldier, I mean, you know, obviously not you know, Yanni States military or whatever. But there's a lot of dudes who come from the areas like where we come from, who just built different and they battle tested. And I just think that from the second that he saw now it's getting beat down by the MC cops, you know that the mode he went into, she she it in the battle war. Immediately after the exchange of gunfire with the police subsides, we see Gerald fished out some duct tape from a creative supplies and he tosses it to Martin and issues a staunch warning that cops scream the other cops again, I'm gonna who you responsible. In the surveillance cam, we see Martin hastily peel a length of tape and stretched. The sergeant places Joe then gives Martin it's O Kate. Here's what really bothers me. But also what I find ridiculous, you know, because people know me as the guy who recorded what the police did to Niles, and no I was involved in the standoff. And to this day, when I get approached on the street, it's usually either people thinking to me as one of the guys that kidnapped the police officer and they love me for it, or people see me and they want to spit my face or fight me like that sort of thing. So on of all of this, this interview, this project, I just want to finally set the record straight because as much as I hate to say this because I don't know, I just think it makes me sound weak or like a coward or something. I was scared shitless in that bar, But you tell me anyone in that situation, it wouldn't be I had no power. I was being held against my will, and I was being ordered to do things that I did not want to do. Gerald, he was in complete control and knew exactly what he was doing that day. Let me back this up a little bit more fun. You. Jason and I are reviewing security camera footage on my laptop. So this is what I wanted you to see. First, Gerald grabs more ammunition for the assault right for. Then he stops another handgun in his waist band. Right there, he just pocketed another two clips. Now he closes a vault and there is You see that what he read programmed the combination. He wasn't just fiddling with the keypad for ships and giggles. He was changing the combination so that only he could get access to the guards. So Gerald was in control. I mean, and how did that make you feel? I mean, it's your bar. Yeah I did feel a way. But on the flip side, I also felt like what could I say to him? Like that was his boy lying on the table in the next room. It was his shot outside Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. Enough police have mobilized him mount a major military offensive. As we waited for the police to make the next move, we get all heard a share amount of activity happening outside, but none of us knew exactly what they were doing. Then yeah, we news from us. And I don't know if it was the fact that an animals had showed up yet or if Gerald was just tied up hearing them say the same thing over and over on the morning. But finally he just had enough and he goes to the middle of the bar facing the street, and he takes this this very wide stance, and his postures just I don't know. I mean, I guess the best way to describe is primal. And at the top of his lungs, he just starts screaming fuck. And I'm just thinking to myself, this guy has lost it. I asked Chase if he thought Gerald was coming undone look. Yeah, at that time, I was more concerned with what was going on on the other side of that front doat and I was about g So finally I just walked over to the window, peeled back some of that construction paper and took a peek. And what did you see? I saw the entire police department. They had dozens of police cars, more officers than I even knew they had, and one of those take looking vehicles. But like the updated five version of the battle ram they used to use in the eighties. You know, they even brought in a mobile command unit, you know, one of those decked out motor home look at things. So seeing all that, I called Gerald over to take a look too. Gerald joins Jays at the window and peers out. After a few seconds of absorbing the scene taking shape outside, Gerald slowly backs away in sort of nods like he's revving himself up for what lies ahead. It's as if you can see something get activated in his head that pulls him out of this raw emotional place where he was screaming his lungs out to a totally different state of mind where the analytical gear start turning again. He can't help but think back to something that correctional officer Pali said about Gerald, how he could imagine Gerald being a grand chess master. Maybe when Gerald looked out that window, he saw his opponents setting the board, lining up the rows of ponds, rooks, nights, and so on, And just as they were prepping outside, he knew that the initial rooms, or what they call in chest the opening was about to be played. I asked Jason about the shift in Gerald's demeanor as he stepped away from the window. All I remember is he started bugging orders. JA makes you the backdoor flock? Then pull them the loose plot from the dinning room. Let's start boarding this up. Yeah, jeez, home to it and make sure you don't bring any more consent. And while you're at it, what you said, Man, you heard me. I don't know why you that cop and you're in the first place. Two shot up police officer in fol league is on the scene. Do you know what that equals? Do you know what he needs? He equals niggas more bullshit about your bullshit? The cop is the only reason we allied right now? That is the old man. Gerald coolly steps up and separates Jason Martin, in part to keep the peace, but also reminding them both that he's the one in charge. Go hand to that back door. So James, did Gerald ever flat out and say that he agreed or disagreed with the fact that you brought Sergeant Place into the bar. Gerald didn't have to say he agreed with me, my wife. Look, I get that it was probably a bit of a shock and he would see the same guy that just put a beato Niles right up in the spot with us. But regardless of all of that, he knew what time it was. If it was just us in the building without saw your place, please forget about it. Police would have leveled the entire block to get that up. That's a load of ship. I think that's just something James keeps telling himself so he can justify his actions that day. Any number of outcomes could have happened if different choices were made. I mean it's possible. I think if Gerald doesn't attack the police, maybe his son is still alive. I mean it's possible, maybe even probable. I think if Jas doesn't take a policeman hostage, Niles is still alive today. Well, Martin seems to think that things could have played out differently than Martin. I guess what I am struggling with, Jase is, how could you and from what you're telling me, Gerald as well, be certain that the only outcome could have been more cops surviving on the scene and executing it. Come, okay, because that's what cops do. The niggas like us, Okay, But is there a version where you and Gerald make different choices and things turn out different and Niles lives. You struggle with it because you live in a different reality than we do. So let me ask you something. If a man sees his child getting beat down in the street like a doll by two grown asked me, what is a man supposed to do? Huh? Just let that ship happen, waiter, he let me get a tiny walk a double knee place. You didn't mean to do? What? Look, why don't we call your spots? Get this thing off me? I ain't doing this bullshit. Never mind. You'll remember from the previous episode I mentioned how at Wilken Sassi's post started me on this journey, and don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Gerald at all for shielding his son from harm, and if that was the end of this story, I would agree that his actions were that of a hero. But this evening was just getting started, and a lot of what Gerald does next classifies more in a villainous category than the heroic one. In any event, my gut tells me that Jason wasn't just indignant with my line of questioning. He was equally frustrated as was I with the canyon between us. And to make matters worse, I was also left wondering did I blow my chance to get another sit down with him? With so many questions to left unanswered, the one thing I was pretty certain of. Judging by his reaction, Jace is definitely carrying a lot of guilt about Nile step, which also begs the question, at what point, if any, did Gerald start to feel guilty too? To find out, join us for the next episode of Hashtag Matter. Hashtag Matter starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Whoch Hall as Martin Sims, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Niles Hayes, Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, Music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones, Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains culturally insensitive language and violence. Something that I think that most people don't take into account is that, yes, I recorded the incident on my cell phone, but I also actually witnessed those cops and what they did to Niles with my own two eyes. And how would you describe what you saw? It was traumatizing. Yeah, it was traumatizing. And let's just say those cops acted like savages. Niles Hayes, who you remember from the first episode, was running an errand to pick up tickets to a basketball game when he gets pulled over by the police. The car he was driving, a seven Series BMW, belonged to a family friend, Jay Shaw. The following footage is from the policeman's body cam. Roll your window down all the way and I'm gonna need you to get off your cell phone. That's the voice of thirteen year police that are in Sergeant Place, license registration insurance. I was just trying to fix my dad and let him know that I got pulled over his license insurance. Please as Nile's hands as I d card over, Sergeant Places partner Officer Webb approaches the BMW's trunk. Can I ask you something? Why is your partner putting gloves on like he's about to get in a fight. Do you have registration and insurance? That's what I was trying to tell you. I'm not sure where the owner keeps it? You okay with me? Looking in the glove compartment, sir? Is this vehicle stolen? What's known? This is my dad's friend, his car, My father and the owner of the car. That Are you buying or selling drugs? Come on, man, answer the question. No, are you buying a something? Drugs? Are there any narcotics of any kind in the vehicle? Cocaine? Pills? No? Do you mind if reserves the vehicle? I do mind? Are you in possession of a firearm or any other weapon? Really? That's where you're going with this? Man? This is some bullshit. I'm gonna need you to step outside the vehicle right now. I'm trying to tell you the owner of the car is right there in that restaurant across the street. Hey, hands up on the dash. I have to put my hands up on the dash now, all right? All right, all right there there, keep him there. Why are you putting your hand on your car. Shut up so ridiculously outside the vehicle, slowly listen to me for a second. Stop jumping and conclusive. Hi, get out of the car now, screaming voice, you just heard that Sergeant places partner Officer web So here I am outside of Jason's forty two take in video of the building on my phone. That's Martin Sims, who you also remember from the previous episode is Jay Shaw's former sports agent. Now, this again is part of my attempt to make Jas think that I'm actually considering partnering up with him on the bar. But like I said, everything about this was a non starter. I mean from the gun vault to Jason's drinking and kit Let's be honest here, the restaurant business is a tough one as it is, and then you add in a middle aged former athlete with questionable executive decision making skills. Oh no, thank you, you were over it. I was, and Kate, I swear to you. I was literally thinking to myself, you know, Martin, you can just leave, you can just leave and just give Jason excuse later. Why didn't you? Because that's when I heard the commotion across the street the police. Yeah, and Basically, all I did was turn a hundred and eighty degrees and keep filming. Am I to arrest? Do you want to be No? I want you to stop assuming that I'm doing something wrong. Is that I'm a criminal? Mann? Stop acting like a criminal and comply? But how am I acting like a criminal? This is your final warning step outside of the vehicle. Don't sit man, this is why they need to defund y'all. Well, let's go. And then all of a sudden, I hear so offers a web bangs his baton into the window and at the same time starts and play starts punching the crap out of the mouse's face through the driver's side. And then that's when you just hear like web just destroyed the star window, a huge mouth out of the car like using bag rounds stands warning to the people. I didn't do anything. Start out, start out, and these these two cops are just taking terms like tea off on this poor kid just got him. So while all this is happening, right, I saw to reach back from one hand to open the rest of my door, and I called inside. I'm like you gotta see that. Wait, is that Marchael behind him. Joel comes out and immediately teas in on his son. Then Jay's yells out too, prompted by the hollering, you can see Officer Webb look across the street. He quickly reaches for the radio on his lapel progress respective of a five three copy that norm sending back up path. Attention l units you're intersections with Lass obviously the assistance and responding units, please identifying four five three frame responding coming there four five three freak. Then I remember feeling something like sort of whisp past me. In the next thing I know, I say, General running towards you know, his son and the police. Okay, but but as he's trying to get to his son, and he's trying to dodge from the crossing traffic by taking my phone and I zoom in just as Officer Webb slams his knee onto me, his face whetting all of these wings, falls home hard on the kid's jar that moler's not in his kid's mouth, and bounces onto the curb. And then after that, Sergeant Place just started crawling out back up back up bag. As both policemen clear away from Niles, Sergeant Place pulls his taser out and fires it like. I don't know if it's because they were focused on making sure they were keeping a safe distance from Niles as they taste them or what, But neither one of them saw Jerald coming Like a projectile. Gerald is his body with all the speed he can muster and to both police officers, which sends them all crashing to the ground. Then Gerald quickly rolls on top of Sergeant Place and began striking down on him with a flurry of rabid blows. Simultaneously, Officer Webbry groups from the fall and draws his gun. Then when that first shot rung out, j Sha recalls his reaction. My heart sunk because I thought, damn, they just shot g You thought Officer Web shot Gerald. Yeah, yeah I did. But it was weird because I hear the gun go off, and it's like everything froze for us Place second, that's when I realized that Sergeant Place at his gun out too. Why did everyone freeze because no one could believe what they were seeing, which was what Sergeant Plays just shot his own partner. And then you just see Officer Web drop straight down and it's like as soon as Officer Wells body hit the ground. Boom, freeze, frame was over. Everything started moving again, but like real fast in the video, Gerald immediately tries to wrestle Sergeant Places, gonna away from him. As the two continue their struggle for the firearm, another shot rings out, this one hitting Sergeant Placed in his right leg. Seizing the moment, Gerald rips the gun away from the now wounded Sergeant Place and he proceeds to whale on him with his sists and the policeman's own. So I just take off running towards now. Jason, in his infinite wisdom, dashes across the street as well to where all this madness is happening. Now. Now Gerald is beating the crap out of Sergeant Place and the other cop officers Web is all on the side, grabbing at a bloody wound on his neck. What about Niles? From what I could see, Niles was out the oils was still conscious. Martin was just too far away to hear what we heard. As I'm running up, she's just beating the ship out of sawd your place. And then I see him sort of rocked back, take a like keep about to shoot this dude, And that's when we both hear there right there. Did you did you here? Now? Says Damn To this day, I believe Gerald was gonna shoot that cop on the spot had he not heard his son call out. That split second gave Gerald palms and that's when I put my hands on him, and I say. In Martin's cell phone footage and in the surveillance video from outside the restaurant, we see Gerald peel his battered son off the sidewalk and carry him across the street over the door. You're in, Nora. We have a night night night chewing him over, down over, dick down cop in that fire tenor is on the way stand line intentional units. We have a nine ventura ball of art and Lazarus and let's requested as well respond well, hanging there so now here, surrounded by straight up Corntie. Obviously, Webb don't look like he's gonna make it. Sergeant Places shot up to at the end, I see Place crawling towards Webb's gun, which is lying right there on the sidewalk right. So now I'm thinking, if I let him get to that gun, who knows what my jumple. In Martin's video, we see Sergeant Place get within inches of his partner's straight firearm. When Jay's kicks the weapon out of reach, The former football player then hoist Sergeant Place over his shoulder and carries the wounded policeman towards the restaurant. As Jason runs through traffic towards this building, we can see in the restaurant surveillance camera that Jays also grabs Martin by the caller and pulls him along as well. Come what are you doing? Let my circle that. I asked Martin what he felt like. As the large ornately crafted doors at Jason's body, two sports bar and girl close behind them, I was disbelief, but at the same time it was all start to get the feeling that I was trapped. Now now'll come on, boy, who come at John that I'm carrying it? Sergeant place right, Gerald announce they already in the kitchen. Immediately I hear Gerald telling me to get some help. So I said, Sergeant place down and kind of you know, problem up against the wall. While I'm doing that, Martin starts free out, thinking of my face, James, what are you thinking? Answering Gerald's call, Jase leaves Martin Sergeant Place in the main bar area and crosses into the kitchen. Are you leaking you go to heavy lance? Yeah. When I walked into the kitchen, I've seen Niles laid up like that on the table. I just went't prepared for. I mean, I saw how it was constans beating on him, but I just didn't expect it to be as bad as it was. You know, can you tell us what you saw? One of his arms dislocated hanging towards the ground, but like wrong way and was not room chest at all. These belts bruises on it his face. Yeah, it's so spoiler. Yeah, yes, the address? Do you know the street number? Side? Oh yeah, it's sixty two six to thank you, thank you. Sorry, we already responding to that location and responsible shooting. Is that law he may have may not be okay, sorry, well we have that on the way. Are you inside the building? After calling, Jays goes back into the main area, where we see Martin pacing nervously back and forth. Sergeant Place is still propped against the wall and you can tell that he's in a lot of discomfort as he squirms uncomfortably from the bullet wound in his thigh. No, no more. In the video, we see Gerald dragged Sergeant Place towards the kitchen, where Niles convlesses, you cannot do that, Okay, this man is she stopped Martin in the face and it's not his hands down, And then he goes back to drag the policeman towards the kitchen. Right mine hops up and makes a bee line for the front door and opens it, and all of a sudden, all you go here was Kate and ship was so loud Eat literally sounded like the squad cars were driving into the bar over the door. Lucky you and him? What are you free to believe? Hill Martin? I did that? So, Martin, were you grateful that James told Gerald he was the one who brought Sergeant Place into the bar with you. As far as I was concerned, it was Jason's fault that I was in this messing the first place, So no, I was definitely not grateful. If anything, I was pissed. And then I look over and Gerald is waving a gun in my direction, like, oh, hell no, if anyone goes for that door again without my permission, I'm gonna shoot you. First, did you believe him that he would shoot me without a question? But he wasn't the only one I was worried about taking a bullet from what he's on him. All this is charge of place. Take a building, now take a building, now back back back. So James walked me through this. Who shot first? I ain't sa do with Gerald little police. Jason is lying if he says he doesn't remember who five first was? Gerald Martin recounts. Okay, let let me just tell exactly how it went down. Okay, First, the police announced themselves, then try to bust out the door and successfully. Generald shoots, and then the police they returned fire. Now this goes on for a been until Gerald runs out of AMMO. Sergeant Place notices. He calls onto the other cops. He's like, he's out, He's out, He's out. But remember Jason's gun vote that I was worried about. Well, guess who else remembered it? Gerald Bingo or like donkey going after that? So after trading a few shots, she goes into my office and come back out with the big boy. And when you said the boy, you mean my a off fifteen? What's the cops turn that day? He won't none, And luckily for them, he just fired one and shots it to the sea. So Martin, what were you thinking as bullets were flying back and forth? Did you did you think that you were going to die? Kate? You know, um, I felt like this is something I don't want to talk about. Ipposed to say question to Jace, But I'm like Martin, Jason was more cavalier about it. Well, you know, it's not the first time I've been shot at, been shot a bunch of times, but from the hood Cake. So if you had to rate this being shot at experience on a scale of this ship was a twenty. Because I take being shot at by some stick up kids and some jealous dude up in the club every day of the week, and twice on Sunday over a cop getting one shot off in my direction? What's up? What? One cops shoot to kill? Two they're really good at hitting the targets they aimed at. And three have you ever seen a practice target? It's black and it doesn't have anything for you to aim at except vitals. Now, we were just lucky that they were shooting blindly into walls and that the windows was covered. Otherwise I don't think i'd be here talking to you right now. I don't know what about Gerald. Do you think he was scared at all? You're so certain, let me explain something to you about Gerald Hayes. He's one of those dudes that has that switch, you know what I'm saying, And by the time there was gunfire, that switch was turned all the way up. Martin echoed Jason's assessment of Gerald. The best way I can describe Gerald in that moment is there was a look in his eyes that I simply have not seen on another human being in my life, and then scared the ship out of me. Look. I ain't trying to glamorize it or him, but jeez, a soldier, I mean, you know, obviously not you know, Yanni States military or whatever. But there's a lot of dudes who come from the areas like where we come from, who just built different and they battle tested. And I just think that from the second that he saw now it's getting beat down by the MC cops, you know that the mode he went into, she she it in the battle war. Immediately after the exchange of gunfire with the police subsides, we see Gerald fished out some duct tape from a creative supplies and he tosses it to Martin and issues a staunch warning that cops scream the other cops again, I'm gonna who you responsible. In the surveillance cam, we see Martin hastily peel a length of tape and stretched. The sergeant places Joe then gives Martin it's O Kate. Here's what really bothers me. But also what I find ridiculous, you know, because people know me as the guy who recorded what the police did to Niles, and no I was involved in the standoff. And to this day, when I get approached on the street, it's usually either people thinking to me as one of the guys that kidnapped the police officer and they love me for it, or people see me and they want to spit my face or fight me like that sort of thing. So on of all of this, this interview, this project, I just want to finally set the record straight because as much as I hate to say this because I don't know, I just think it makes me sound weak or like a coward or something. I was scared shitless in that bar, But you tell me anyone in that situation, it wouldn't be I had no power. I was being held against my will, and I was being ordered to do things that I did not want to do. Gerald, he was in complete control and knew exactly what he was doing that day. Let me back this up a little bit more fun. You. Jason and I are reviewing security camera footage on my laptop. So this is what I wanted you to see. First, Gerald grabs more ammunition for the assault right for. Then he stops another handgun in his waist band. Right there, he just pocketed another two clips. Now he closes a vault and there is You see that what he read programmed the combination. He wasn't just fiddling with the keypad for ships and giggles. He was changing the combination so that only he could get access to the guards. So Gerald was in control. I mean, and how did that make you feel? I mean, it's your bar. Yeah I did feel a way. But on the flip side, I also felt like what could I say to him? Like that was his boy lying on the table in the next room. It was his shot outside Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. Enough police have mobilized him mount a major military offensive. As we waited for the police to make the next move, we get all heard a share amount of activity happening outside, but none of us knew exactly what they were doing. Then yeah, we news from us. And I don't know if it was the fact that an animals had showed up yet or if Gerald was just tied up hearing them say the same thing over and over on the morning. But finally he just had enough and he goes to the middle of the bar facing the street, and he takes this this very wide stance, and his postures just I don't know. I mean, I guess the best way to describe is primal. And at the top of his lungs, he just starts screaming fuck. And I'm just thinking to myself, this guy has lost it. I asked Chase if he thought Gerald was coming undone look. Yeah, at that time, I was more concerned with what was going on on the other side of that front doat and I was about g So finally I just walked over to the window, peeled back some of that construction paper and took a peek. And what did you see? I saw the entire police department. They had dozens of police cars, more officers than I even knew they had, and one of those take looking vehicles. But like the updated five version of the battle ram they used to use in the eighties. You know, they even brought in a mobile command unit, you know, one of those decked out motor home look at things. So seeing all that, I called Gerald over to take a look too. Gerald joins Jays at the window and peers out. After a few seconds of absorbing the scene taking shape outside, Gerald slowly backs away in sort of nods like he's revving himself up for what lies ahead. It's as if you can see something get activated in his head that pulls him out of this raw emotional place where he was screaming his lungs out to a totally different state of mind where the analytical gear start turning again. He can't help but think back to something that correctional officer Pali said about Gerald, how he could imagine Gerald being a grand chess master. Maybe when Gerald looked out that window, he saw his opponents setting the board, lining up the rows of ponds, rooks, nights, and so on, And just as they were prepping outside, he knew that the initial rooms, or what they call in chest the opening was about to be played. I asked Jason about the shift in Gerald's demeanor as he stepped away from the window. All I remember is he started bugging orders. JA makes you the backdoor flock? Then pull them the loose plot from the dinning room. Let's start boarding this up. Yeah, jeez, home to it and make sure you don't bring any more consent. And while you're at it, what you said, Man, you heard me. I don't know why you that cop and you're in the first place. Two shot up police officer in fol league is on the scene. Do you know what that equals? Do you know what he needs? He equals niggas more bullshit about your bullshit? The cop is the only reason we allied right now? That is the old man. Gerald coolly steps up and separates Jason Martin, in part to keep the peace, but also reminding them both that he's the one in charge. Go hand to that back door. So James, did Gerald ever flat out and say that he agreed or disagreed with the fact that you brought Sergeant Place into the bar. Gerald didn't have to say he agreed with me, my wife. Look, I get that it was probably a bit of a shock and he would see the same guy that just put a beato Niles right up in the spot with us. But regardless of all of that, he knew what time it was. If it was just us in the building without saw your place, please forget about it. Police would have leveled the entire block to get that up. That's a load of ship. I think that's just something James keeps telling himself so he can justify his actions that day. Any number of outcomes could have happened if different choices were made. I mean it's possible. I think if Gerald doesn't attack the police, maybe his son is still alive. I mean it's possible, maybe even probable. I think if Jas doesn't take a policeman hostage, Niles is still alive today. Well, Martin seems to think that things could have played out differently than Martin. I guess what I am struggling with, Jase is, how could you and from what you're telling me, Gerald as well, be certain that the only outcome could have been more cops surviving on the scene and executing it. Come, okay, because that's what cops do. The niggas like us, Okay, But is there a version where you and Gerald make different choices and things turn out different and Niles lives. You struggle with it because you live in a different reality than we do. So let me ask you something. If a man sees his child getting beat down in the street like a doll by two grown asked me, what is a man supposed to do? Huh? Just let that ship happen, waiter, he let me get a tiny walk a double knee place. You didn't mean to do? What? Look, why don't we call your spots? Get this thing off me? I ain't doing this bullshit. Never mind. You'll remember from the previous episode I mentioned how at Wilken Sassi's post started me on this journey, and don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Gerald at all for shielding his son from harm, and if that was the end of this story, I would agree that his actions were that of a hero. But this evening was just getting started, and a lot of what Gerald does next classifies more in a villainous category than the heroic one. In any event, my gut tells me that Jason wasn't just indignant with my line of questioning. He was equally frustrated as was I with the canyon between us. And to make matters worse, I was also left wondering did I blow my chance to get another sit down with him? With so many questions to left unanswered, the one thing I was pretty certain of. Judging by his reaction, Jace is definitely carrying a lot of guilt about Nile step, which also begs the question, at what point, if any, did Gerald start to feel guilty too? To find out, join us for the next episode of Hashtag Matter. Hashtag Matter starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Whoch Hall as Martin Sims, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Niles Hayes, Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, Music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones, Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.