You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. I'm in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half, and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna miss half. And if you only miss half, you're an all star. Hi. I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. My guest today is an expert in something that can't be taught. It's a sixth sense that very few of us are born with, but he has it in spades. It's the innate ability to create a need in the marketplace that wasn't there before, and then to satisfy that need. He's a sports talk HiCon. He's an entrepreneur and wildly successful podcaster. He's Colin Coward. He started out in a small fishing village, fell in love with radio as a kid, became an athlete and worked on the school newspaper, then parlayed those early interests into a massive career in his own self styled world of sports broadcasting, announcing, reporting, hosting, anchoring, and most recently, podcasting. He's done it all in every medium for the past four decades, from the West Coast to the East Coast, from local TV and radio to ESPN, to Fox Sports, and to the digital realm and partnership with us here at I heeart with not one but two podcast networks, the Herb Podcast Network and the Volume Network. He's also a two time published author, partner with a brewer to make his own microbrew, and owns a burger restaurant in California. And to top it off, he's a good guy. Colin. Welcome, Bob, Thanks for having me. Jeez, I've been busy apparently before we get started, I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready, yep? Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Cats are two aloof East Coast or West Coast, like the West Coast early riser or night ol early riser, text or email, email, Super Bowl or World Series? Super Bowl. I like football, beach or snow. If you gave me one great day a year, it would be skiing snow over sun. Now it's about to get a little harder. All time favorite athlete Tiger Woods greatest sports caster of all time al Michael's. He's probably the one guy that if I'm ever in a room with, I feel like I would die to have his talent. Smartest person you know, Bob Iger. And finally, what's the best advice you ever received? It's not about being right, it's about being compelling. Bruce Gilbert told me that, Colin. Let's jump in now and start with the obvious sports casting by reputation, you're the guy who finds the unique angle. You're the thinker who examined something most have missed. And on the other side of the spectrum you got the flamethrowers. What is the tension between these two approaches, what you do and what they do? And how is it changing the profession? Well, I was never that interested in the what the what is easy? What happened? The Lakers want? Why did it happen? Explain it to me. That's much more fascinating to me. I don't consider myself a flamethrower. I think of myself as somebody who is really interested in the story behind the story. I wrote my first book and I talked about in the very beginning there's two stories. The one the public gets and the truth. And you know, big companies have PR firms and layers and layers of people to protect companies and protect athletes, and they have agents and handlers, and so my job is to figure out why something happened, Why the story leaked, why the story broke on Friday late afternoon, why was it a news dump? What are protecting? That? To me has just always been more interesting because that's what I care about. So I think a great show should be closest to your true self. If you're silly, do a silly show. I love sports, but I really love life. I like traveling, I like reading, I like new things. So I want my show to exemplify that. I'm not a debate guy. I've never watched really a debate show. I'm not interested in that format. I don't want to manufacture opinions to you know, justify or rating. I don't have a problem with people doing that. It just doesn't interest me. I don't find it compelling. I'm not somebody that would argue about anything. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I'm more interested. Why do you think the way you think? Not what you think? We've all got different opinions. Is your childhood the reason you think that? Did you have a jarring event in your life? Why do you think that way? The flamethrower approach. I don't see myself as that. I think I'm self deprecating. I think my audience knows I'm trying to find interesting angles. But there's certainly room for that in the marketplace. I'm just not that guy. How do you develop your topics? How do you find that unique point? It's what we care about in the morning meeting. I've been furnished with a great staff. You know, I'm very lucky, Bob, because I'm the last really successful sports simulcast. I have a combined radio and TV production team. So it's double the size of my competitors. That means twice as many eyes and ears and brains. And so I come in the morning with some thoughts, and I like my staff, my team to pitch me ideas, give me a funny line, a different angle. I mean, I've literally done a five minute rant and then somebody in the end will throw in a line and I'm like, oh, that's a way more interesting angle, and I just spent twenty minutes on it. I'll throw it out and start over. So we're constantly pitching ideas. Somebody throws me a line, I write it down. I'm like, that's funny, that's a funny line. That's a memorable line. Because I've always believed that I have to take the audience somewhere. I get nine to eleven minutes of you in a car. I'm not gonna ramble. I respect you, and I want to earn your respect. I want to take you somewhere. You haven't been on a trip, on a journey through a story, so when it's over and you get out of your car, it's almost like a column. Lead meet wrap it up at the end, and I feel there's too much rambling in radio and not enough true storytelling. With the beginning, a middle, and an end, it closes. Take people somewhere, Give them something, make him laugh, make him think, make them cry, make them sometimes angry, make them question themselves. Take them somewhere. Let's talk a little bit about history. Let's go back to the Howard Coast cell era. How would you describe that period and how and why did it evolve. Cosell was my first idol. I love co Sell. He was irascible, he was tough. He had an enormous ego. But if you take Howard at his best, I think he's one of the ten most important sportscasters of my life. He challenged authority. He was on the right side of history. He took big swings. I had on a podcast Peter Goober as part owner of the you know the Warriors and l a f C very successful guy in the movie business. I could tell that he was kind of a reasonably regular listener, and he said, you know, Colin, you're irrascible. You know you're feisty. And I remember when we got done, I thought, am I And that day I thought, that's probably the influence Howard Cosell had on me. Is that poke and proud and make people uncomfortable and challenge authority. I think we're missing a little bit of that today. I think people Bob now go to camps. I'm on left, I'm on right. I'm pro athlete, I'm pro owner. I like the independent thinker. I like the independent fighter, fighting for the people, fighting for the truth, willing to admit they're wrong. There's some Dick Young, the sportswriter, Howard Cosell, some of that stuff would be seen as inappropriate today roth vulgar, But I think modern media misses a little bit of that. We're too finesse. Now, let's jump a little bit. Sports in America has always worked hand in hand with the media outlets to carry the games. I mean for decades and decades. The world of media right now is going through the biggest change I've seen in my life. How is that changing sports for me? Once leagues had their own networks, and I'm not really a fan of any of them. Snowshot at MLB network or Basketball or the NFL network, but they feel a little generic and a little safe. But it did alleviate the need for me to feel like a sports page. If you like tennis, go watch the tennis channel. You like hockey, watch the hockey channel. You like baseball, watch the baseball channel. It's alleviated that day to day pressure to be a sports page. I just cover now the biggest stories. There's an insatiable want in this country for authentic and real politics and sports are unscripted and there's nothing else like them, and they're the only thing that works now on terrestrial TV. I don't know why it took so long, but that part's never changed. You know, we've lived through so many different eras. I'm rarely outraged, I'm rarely surprised. And you know, I find sometimes young journalists they think everything's deaf con five, and I feel like, oh, this has been happening since the sixties and seventies and eighties. We've had greater challenges thirty years ago, fifty years ago. When I look at sports, I can remember Sports Illustrated having a cover story thirty years ago. TV networks will not be able to afford these leads. Delo is a Fordham. The bottom line is if I can put a truck commercial on that football or basketball game and sales are strong for that truck company or that soda company, where else are they going to put their spots and get that kind of result. So the cost of sports is greater, But Bob, I watched the World Series. All the games are sold out. I watched the NFL and college football every Saturday. All the big games are sold out. So there's a lot of fear around. It's too expensive, it's not as relatable, and kids can't go to the games. I turn on TV every weekend, Thursday Night Football, Monday Night Football, the stadiums are packed. I don't think it's changed that much. I think it's harder for a network to make a profit if they own the NFL, but they always find a way to do it. I kind of confess I'm not the biggest sports fan you'll ever meet, but I'm a huge fan of entrepreneurs in business. And what intrigues me about you is how you move from being on air talent to owning and running your own business. And you've done it by the way again and again. How do you think about that relationship between you as the on air person and you as the business person. I think I produced my show like I run my businesses. I'm a good passer. I never want to be the smartest person in the room. I like sharing the ball. I like others. I don't want to be a workaholic. I want to come into a room. I think I have some intuitive senses on what works and what doesn't for my brand, and so I don't need to always have the right answer. I'm constantly seeking pushback on my staff and on my businesses. I have a few rules. Treat people well, pay people fairly. I have a certain moral compass. I believe in But I think I run my show like my businesses, be inclusive, include people in the profits, sharing ideas. I think people want to be part of those environments. The only time I lose people on my team is when I get double the compensation. Otherwise I keep my team members, And so I think I think I'm easy to work for. I'll bark twice a year it's something I don't like. I'll fight for something I believe in. You know, a quarterback in high school. I loved having a good running game. I love turning to my running back and I didn't have to work as hard because he was scoring, he was providing the offense. I don't need to be the center of attention. You'd think in radio I have to be the center of attention. But I like really strong teammates, really strong producing. I like being part of an ensemble and a cast. That's my kind of theory on it. Don't be a ballhog share. So how did you learn business? My dad was in the stock market and there was always like a Wall Street journal or a business section of a newspaper hanging around. I like the constructive business as much as business. You know, I've tried twice to buy into an MLS franchise. I've always wanted to be, you know, an owner of a team. I've got a draft beer, I got restaurants, I have real estate, I've got companies. I've been a passive investor. The volume I own again, part of a team. I guess a lot of it comes from my dad. My dad was kind of a Reagan conservative, love business. You know, he would watch the stock market, um watch the nightly news, and you know, so he had an influence over me. You know, my mom used to always say, I was eight going on forty. I was a pretty serious kid. And so I've always hung out with people that are older than I am for most of my life. You know, they were more, i would say, professionally advanced. When I was twenty eight or twenty nine, I'm hanging around a forty year old. You know, they're in the middle, they're married, they have kids, they're not going out at night, They're talking about their business. I just enjoy it. I enjoyed the process of it. I'm always you know, whether it's I heart Fox, you know, I'm always you tell me where are their stock options? How can I help an advertiser? How can I elevate the relationship. That stuff always fascinated me because Bob talking is easy for me. Talking sports is pretty easy for me. The challenges sometimes are connecting things to my business. Where can I find a link? How do I make these things assist other things in my little world of Colin So, you know, I think at a very early age I was into it. I was talking a little bit about sports and the changes going on. You mentioned baseball, football, basketball, Well, they continue to be the big three. This year I went to Formula one here in Miami. Everyone said how much bigger Formula One was than the Super Bowl, And literally Formula one was in a parking lot. It sort of it seems too in America anyway, just come out of nowhere, you know, people are talking about pickleball. Now we've got e sports, We've got all these new permutations. How does it change the landscape of what we call sports? Well, basketball, football, and baseball are the big three. But if you look at my lifetime, boxing was far more popular at one point, but it was poorly managed. College basketball was much bigger in the seventies, eighties, nineties, but again not perfectly managed. The asked high schoolers now want to go straight to the NBA. It's become a turnstyle. Um it's it's almost emotionally remote as a sport. The best players, you're one and done, they're out horse racing. It feels like was bigger Baseball was bigger in the seventies. I think a lot of that has been iPhones and the caffeinated, frenetic lifestyles of Americans are too fast for a very slow sport. So outside of the NFL, nothing is really grown been an ascending business for the last thirty years except football. I think a large part of that, Bob is gambling, which is at a jet fuel to it, and the scarcity of games. There are so many games on television now due to cable and new platforms and streaming that the sports with the fewest games tend to be more popular. So I still think we're a basketball, football, baseball country. But I mean UFC took advantage of the lack of leadership in boxing. Pickle Ball is emerging because maybe there's not enough domestic tennis stars in America. Maybe there's an opening. You know, the Boomers don't want to run around, they got tennis elbow and sore knees. They want to be in a more condensed space. F one racing. There was a big Netflix special It caught Fire. It's international, it's cool. Nascar are still much bigger in America. That's our product, that's more domestic. But you know, I always think that the Big three or four are sort of built in to our psyche. But there's always room for a UFC or an F one. Yeah, those are more niche, but you know, I'm here for it. I mean, I think sometimes we forget as Americans how popular soccer is. I love the World Cup and I'll watch an occasional MLS match, but you know, sometimes we can be very provincial. Um, Soccer is significantly bigger. Ronaldo is significantly more globally known than Tom Brady or Peyton Anning. And I think it is the beautiful game. Uh, It's shorter, fewer commercials, goals matter more, the crowds are equally frenzied. So I think soccer globally football in America, basketball will always be at the top of the food chain. More math and magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with Colin Cowern I want to go back in time and look at your origin story. You grew up in a small fishing village south of Seattle in the sixties and seventies. Can you paint a picture of those times? And that place one of the rainiest spots in America? And I don't remember anything but sunny days with my dog in the hills of Grayland, Washington, on motorbikes with friends. I remember the summers, the sand dunes, going down to the docks. My dad loved the fish, salmon, fisherman. It was different back then. You didn't know you're isolated. I didn't think I was missing on everything. My mom was a wonderful cook. My dad was the town optometrist. We didn't have a lot of money, but we didn't lack for anything. It was a very simple life. It was a life I knew, and my sister and I talked about it all the time. It was a wonderful childhood. I got a quarterback in my high school team. I had a really fun, smart girlfriend, two or three really close friends. I was into sports. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I loved my childhood, my high school years. What did you want to be when you grew up a sportscaster when I was seven eight years old. Knew it from the very beginning. Maybe it was I didn't think my dad was paying enough attention to me. He was a workaholic. There's a way to get attention. I would do impersonations. I just knew at a very early age. I loved sports. I love watching it. I love talking it. I knew a lot more so it was impressive to people when I was ten years old and could you know rattle off stats. People couldn't believe it so very early. It made me feel good about myself. Any lessons you learned from your childhood that you used today, Yeah, there's a big difference between alone and lonely. I was alone a lot as a kid, but I was rarely lonely. I think my ability to talk for long stretches to myself is what you had to do in rural America. I didn't have neighbors next to me, and so I would play basketball and call play by play by myself. You had to be creative. I would play whiffleball right out the lineup cards, played by myself. I was constantly doing things by myself. I was alone, but I was having the time of my life. I never look at those as as lonely or sad time. I didn't know it at the time, but I was already developing my skill to talk to myself for hours and and to this day, my kids are the same way. I tell my kids, respect yourself, give yourself time. You know. I give myself an hour to an hour and a half every afternoon to read, listen to music, meditate. Um, it's really crucial time for me every day. In the early eighties, you go off to college. How did college help put you on the path that you got on to success? I identified very early how obsessed I was by sportscasting. There were six or seven other men and women who wanted to be sportscasters. None of them wanted it as badly as I did. I didn't think any of them were as talented as I did. They weren't doing impressions, they weren't listening to radio all night long and recording it on a gigantic AM FM cassette player like my mom gave me for Christmas. I was just obsessed by it, you know, I had all the things. Larry Ellison what said this? The founder of oracle. I had all the things necessary for success. Ignored, child of divorce, small town, had to make my fun, doubted, high school, acne. You know, all those things that you know are the bedrocks of many success stories. That that chip on your shoulder. I had it at a very early age. Did you ever think you might not make it? And if you did, did you have any alternative paths? Did you say, Okay, if I don't make it as the sports, I'm doing this. You know, I never gave it a lot of thought. I didn't. I never had any real self doubt. I have surpassed what my expectations were. I didn't know we'd have all these platforms I identified pretty quickly. I was good with opinions. I thought I was an average writer at best, an average TV anchor. But I thought I was quick and witty and a good storyteller and fairly, you know, good sense of humor. I could talk about anything. I read a lot, so I could. You know, you'd throw a curveball at me and I could pick it up and and hit it somewhere. So I never really gave serious thought to a second career. How do you find talent and how do you coach the talent to get the best out of them. Well, the first six months i'm with any new staff, I have to introduce them to me. So as I come in the morning, when I first got to Fox or ESPN, I take any time I can tell stories about my life. I'm trying to introduce me to the staff. So I like people engaged and people that add into the mix. But not all of them are verbal. Some are good writers, some are voracious readers. You know, I'm older, so I like a young staff staff that introduces me to new things. You know, Bob, It's just and I don't think this is any special skill. I'm often looking for people who can do what I can't. I'm not looking for yes man. I'm looking for people who have a skill I don't, or an interest I don't, and they can fill in the gaps around my personality. I think every personality has holes and gaps and strengths and liabilities. I'm looking for gap fillers. You talked a little bit about core values that you believe in. What core values do you have for the team you put together the businesses you own and run. I want us to have an honest staff. If you're six day home. If you don't think you're being treated fairly, speak up. If you get a job offered, tell me, I'll fight to keep you, but i'll be a great reference. You know, no real secrets. Tell me what you think, honest feedback. I don't have to be friends with everybody on the staff, but I want everybody to feel a friendship that's on the staff, that we're a team and we've got each other's backs. But we don't have to hang out summer, old, summer, young, some have big family, summer single, not necessarily feeling protected but supported. You know, I fought for a lot of people. I don't have to at Fox or Premier, but when I was at ESPN, I fought for a lot of people. They didn't pay very well. I had to go to boss Is more than once and banging a table to get people paid what I thought was a reasonable amount for the services provided. So when I talk about core values, they're more professional. Um. I don't dive into people's personal life. I'd prefer they don't dive into mind. But I do think there's kind of a moral code. If you're on my staff, you know, I think I'm surrounded by really good people, really people that protect me. They're there, you know, they're they're they got my back, but they can also make fun of me, you know when you talk for three hours a day, Bob. As you well know, I'm in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. But I'm an artist. I'm gonna spill paint in order to work fast, fluid, be funny, quick, witty. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna half. And if you only miss half, you're an all star. So podcasting, you were big and radio big and TV. How did you notice podcasting? You've become one of the biggest stars in sports podcasting. Where did that come from? What was your first inkling you had something? Was there? Well, it was during COVID and I got a call, I think from Julie Talbot. I have a great relationship with Julie, and Julie said, you know, it's the strangest thing. She said, there's no cars on the road, and your ratings have stabilized. It shows the loyalty of your audience. And I remember thinking, I said, you know how our sales and she said, you know, we're keeping them. We may not be growing, but we're keeping them. The show sold out, and I remember thinking, Bob, wait a minute. When covid ends there's gonna be a greater demand for spots, right, well, if I don't have space, they just go to ESPN. Where do they go? They go to other shows. So I thought, Julie, if I can own it, I'll create two thousand hours a month of inventory of space so you can put these ads on it and we can share in revenue. And so to me, it was just it goes back to kind of the business part of it. I'm like, it's gonna be hard. If I can own it, I'll do a rev share, but let me create a podcast network and very quickly I'll be writing you checks. You won't be just writing me checks. And that's how it was born. Social media. How has it made sports better and how has it made sports worse? And what role does it play in the sports fans life and the life of a sportscaster. Well, it's a visceral connection that you can reach out and touch people. Now you can reach out and connect with me. Um that part I like. I don't like the vile nature of it. I have probably a dozen social accounts, eleven are run by somebody else. I do some Twitter. I think you have to be careful. Dennis Miller of the comedian Wants said, when asked about being on Monday Night Football, do you want to look at the research? And he said no. If it's too good, I'll get cocky, and if it's bad, I'll get insecure. I try not to engage. I try not to worry about it. I don't read a lot of it. I shoot, you can't monetize my missus. You can't monetize miss shots. I just do volume. I shoot. I throw stuff out there. I hope people like it, and I think ultimately the person that puts out the most quality content over time wins. I think ours is very good. I do think it's made a lot of sportscasters leery of strong opinions. You know, nobody wants to be exposed or called out. But that's never bothered me, so in a weird way, it's made it easier for me that I think a lot of hosts are terrified of criticism. I always feel like the price and the privilege of relevance is criticism. So bring it on. Let's do some advice. What advice would you give to the major sports leagues for the growth of the sports? More kids at games, and tighter security on vulgar adults. I don't know how many times I've been in discussions with friends who just don't want to go to a pro event because people are too drunk, too loud. I couldn't tell you the last time I went to a baseball game and didn't see a fight in the stands. I wish they had tighter security, they would limit alcohol. I wish there were more kids. I want more kids at my games. You know I'm not talking four but fourteen. Excuse some advice for sports marketers and advertisers. What do they get wrong? Most often, don't think you're smarter than the public. If the public likes diet coke, give them diet coke. I think sometimes managers try to outthink the room and out clever the room. The audience tells you what they like. Listen, they like football, Labor Day, the February two. If you're not talking at sevent of the time you're doing your audience and disservice and your advertisers, your partners. The media tends to think they're smarter and funnier and more clever than they are. Play the hits. Respect your audience, Understand what topics resonate, don't outthink the room. So finally, if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your twenty one year old self. Oh boy, that's a good question. SE's where do I start. I grew up a child of divorce alcoholic father. Although he was a very gracious guy. He wasn't a mean drinker, very thoughtful, sweet, sweet guy. And because I didn't feel I had sometimes the necessary support, I became self reliant to a fault, and my only way to win and succeed in my twenties in early thirties was fear based, and I didn't look like who I was becoming. It was I had to win, and I wanted to be more joy based. I wanted to be happy when other people were successful. I was given some advice. It was sometime in nineteen eighty nine. I got out of college in eight six and went to Vegas. It was probably eighties seven and I was on a sales call with my boss, Don Logan, and he had to go to a big account and meet with the president of the Union Plaza. And he didn't want me in the room. I was too young. I was probably five years old. So I went to the Union Plaza and I sat next to a guy and he looked like he'd made money, but he'd earned it. He was a Texan. He had a rolex on, a white shirt, tan skinned, kind of a you know, like a Marlboro Man looking guy. He was sitting there with a whiskey rocks and planned poker and he was waiting for a taxicab and he just had a pretty good weekend there and he just sold a bunch of radio and TV stations in Texas or Arkansas. And I remember asking him, what advice would you give me? And it really resonated with me, and it really does now. He said, be happy for other people's success, beyond yourself. And he said it and it was one of those things that sounded great. But I wasn't in a space to be able to do that because I was so fear based and I just had to succeed. I knew I had nothing to go back to really in rural Washington, but I've gone back to that multiple times in my life, and that's one of the reasons I love the volume where I'm finding all this young talent and helping it grow and promoting it. I wish I was more joy based in my twenties and less fear based. I like my competitive spirit, but I don't want it to be hurting others. And I don't think I cared much about how it ended into my twenties and early thirties, and that was my reality, that was my psychology. So I've gone to a lot of therapy on that. I'm generally and genuinely happy for other sportscasters who have success. It makes me happy. It brings a smile to my face to see people kick butt, make money, get married, family success, and I don't think I was capable of that in my twenties, just based on my childhood and what I was dealing with personally. So we end each episode of Math and Magic by giving a shout out to the greats, because Math and Magic is about the analytical side of business, the math, and the really creative side of business, the magic. You know, it's rare you find one person who does both equally. Well, who's your mathematician, who's your magician? Let me start with my magician. I'm not sure if you ever read the Steve Jobs book. I think it was by Walter Isaacson. It was like four books in one. You learn about technology, Microsoft, Steve Jobs, Apple. You know. One of the things I took from that that I thought was so fascinating was that Steve Jobs his vision of the iPhone is I'm going to create something you can't live without, but you don't know it yet. I think that's so fascinating, and I think so few people can do that that I can't live without my iPhone today. Steve Jobs saw that thirty years ago, twenty years ago. To be able to see around that corner, it's wizardry. I'm endlessly fascinated with the future and mostly bored with the past, and so Steve Jobs, to me is everything I would want from a boss. I just think he's such a unique American innovator the math question. One of the most fascinating people in sports, and you would not think of him as mad athy, but he was a chemist. Was Jerry Buss, the former owner of the Lakers and Jerry Buss through his personal Piccadillos really changed sports in America. That he brought the Laker girls. Nobody did that, the forum club, nobody did that, the lighting for Laker games. It became a television product, not just an in person product. When I look at the structural branding of the Lakers, from the uniform colors to putting celebrities in the front row, to the nightclub atmosphere, it's almost like Jerry Buss skipped a generation. He was a generation ahead of everybody on that. It's why the Lakers are one of the only major cities in America that are a basketball brand over a football brand. He just vis really just emotionally connected. The mailman in your street, the celebrity in Beverly Hills or bell Air. They all felt the same about the Lakers. It was their team. He made sports cool. When I watched the winning time on HBO, I sat back and I thought he was decades ahead of his time. Colin. Congrats on all your success and thanks for sharing your stories today. Ah Bob, thanks so much. I loved it. Thank you so much, and thanks, by the way for all you're doing with us. We love having you as part of our family too. I love being part of the family. Thank you, Bob. Here are a few things I picked up in my conversation with Colin. One, listen to your audience. Collins advice to advertisers is when the audience tells you what they like, believe them. Colin says, play the hits and don't try to outthink the room. To us the ball, even the most skilled athletes shouldn't hog the ball. By sharing responsibilities among a trusted team, you can amplify everyone's strings. Three. Prioritize cause over effect. When doing research, Colin doesn't ask what he asked why. This curiosity around root causes is one of the things that makes Colin such a compelling storyteller. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Susan Ward for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feet. Our editors are Derrek Clements and Emily Maynot. Our producer Morgan Levoy, our executive producer Nikki Etour and of course Gail Raoul, Eeric Angel, Noel and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until next time,

You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. I'm in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half, and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna miss half. And if you only miss half, you're an all star. Hi. I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. My guest today is an expert in something that can't be taught. It's a sixth sense that very few of us are born with, but he has it in spades. It's the innate ability to create a need in the marketplace that wasn't there before, and then to satisfy that need. He's a sports talk HiCon. He's an entrepreneur and wildly successful podcaster. He's Colin Coward. He started out in a small fishing village, fell in love with radio as a kid, became an athlete and worked on the school newspaper, then parlayed those early interests into a massive career in his own self styled world of sports broadcasting, announcing, reporting, hosting, anchoring, and most recently, podcasting. He's done it all in every medium for the past four decades, from the West Coast to the East Coast, from local TV and radio to ESPN, to Fox Sports, and to the digital realm and partnership with us here at I heeart with not one but two podcast networks, the Herb Podcast Network and the Volume Network. He's also a two time published author, partner with a brewer to make his own microbrew, and owns a burger restaurant in California. And to top it off, he's a good guy. Colin. Welcome, Bob, Thanks for having me. Jeez, I've been busy apparently before we get started, I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready, yep? Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Cats are two aloof East Coast or West Coast, like the West Coast early riser or night ol early riser, text or email, email, Super Bowl or World Series? Super Bowl. I like football, beach or snow. If you gave me one great day a year, it would be skiing snow over sun. Now it's about to get a little harder. All time favorite athlete Tiger Woods greatest sports caster of all time al Michael's. He's probably the one guy that if I'm ever in a room with, I feel like I would die to have his talent. Smartest person you know, Bob Iger. And finally, what's the best advice you ever received? It's not about being right, it's about being compelling. Bruce Gilbert told me that, Colin. Let's jump in now and start with the obvious sports casting by reputation, you're the guy who finds the unique angle. You're the thinker who examined something most have missed. And on the other side of the spectrum you got the flamethrowers. What is the tension between these two approaches, what you do and what they do? And how is it changing the profession? Well, I was never that interested in the what the what is easy? What happened? The Lakers want? Why did it happen? Explain it to me. That's much more fascinating to me. I don't consider myself a flamethrower. I think of myself as somebody who is really interested in the story behind the story. I wrote my first book and I talked about in the very beginning there's two stories. The one the public gets and the truth. And you know, big companies have PR firms and layers and layers of people to protect companies and protect athletes, and they have agents and handlers, and so my job is to figure out why something happened, Why the story leaked, why the story broke on Friday late afternoon, why was it a news dump? What are protecting? That? To me has just always been more interesting because that's what I care about. So I think a great show should be closest to your true self. If you're silly, do a silly show. I love sports, but I really love life. I like traveling, I like reading, I like new things. So I want my show to exemplify that. I'm not a debate guy. I've never watched really a debate show. I'm not interested in that format. I don't want to manufacture opinions to you know, justify or rating. I don't have a problem with people doing that. It just doesn't interest me. I don't find it compelling. I'm not somebody that would argue about anything. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I'm more interested. Why do you think the way you think? Not what you think? We've all got different opinions. Is your childhood the reason you think that? Did you have a jarring event in your life? Why do you think that way? The flamethrower approach. I don't see myself as that. I think I'm self deprecating. I think my audience knows I'm trying to find interesting angles. But there's certainly room for that in the marketplace. I'm just not that guy. How do you develop your topics? How do you find that unique point? It's what we care about in the morning meeting. I've been furnished with a great staff. You know, I'm very lucky, Bob, because I'm the last really successful sports simulcast. I have a combined radio and TV production team. So it's double the size of my competitors. That means twice as many eyes and ears and brains. And so I come in the morning with some thoughts, and I like my staff, my team to pitch me ideas, give me a funny line, a different angle. I mean, I've literally done a five minute rant and then somebody in the end will throw in a line and I'm like, oh, that's a way more interesting angle, and I just spent twenty minutes on it. I'll throw it out and start over. So we're constantly pitching ideas. Somebody throws me a line, I write it down. I'm like, that's funny, that's a funny line. That's a memorable line. Because I've always believed that I have to take the audience somewhere. I get nine to eleven minutes of you in a car. I'm not gonna ramble. I respect you, and I want to earn your respect. I want to take you somewhere. You haven't been on a trip, on a journey through a story, so when it's over and you get out of your car, it's almost like a column. Lead meet wrap it up at the end, and I feel there's too much rambling in radio and not enough true storytelling. With the beginning, a middle, and an end, it closes. Take people somewhere, Give them something, make him laugh, make him think, make them cry, make them sometimes angry, make them question themselves. Take them somewhere. Let's talk a little bit about history. Let's go back to the Howard Coast cell era. How would you describe that period and how and why did it evolve. Cosell was my first idol. I love co Sell. He was irascible, he was tough. He had an enormous ego. But if you take Howard at his best, I think he's one of the ten most important sportscasters of my life. He challenged authority. He was on the right side of history. He took big swings. I had on a podcast Peter Goober as part owner of the you know the Warriors and l a f C very successful guy in the movie business. I could tell that he was kind of a reasonably regular listener, and he said, you know, Colin, you're irrascible. You know you're feisty. And I remember when we got done, I thought, am I And that day I thought, that's probably the influence Howard Cosell had on me. Is that poke and proud and make people uncomfortable and challenge authority. I think we're missing a little bit of that today. I think people Bob now go to camps. I'm on left, I'm on right. I'm pro athlete, I'm pro owner. I like the independent thinker. I like the independent fighter, fighting for the people, fighting for the truth, willing to admit they're wrong. There's some Dick Young, the sportswriter, Howard Cosell, some of that stuff would be seen as inappropriate today roth vulgar, But I think modern media misses a little bit of that. We're too finesse. Now, let's jump a little bit. Sports in America has always worked hand in hand with the media outlets to carry the games. I mean for decades and decades. The world of media right now is going through the biggest change I've seen in my life. How is that changing sports for me? Once leagues had their own networks, and I'm not really a fan of any of them. Snowshot at MLB network or Basketball or the NFL network, but they feel a little generic and a little safe. But it did alleviate the need for me to feel like a sports page. If you like tennis, go watch the tennis channel. You like hockey, watch the hockey channel. You like baseball, watch the baseball channel. It's alleviated that day to day pressure to be a sports page. I just cover now the biggest stories. There's an insatiable want in this country for authentic and real politics and sports are unscripted and there's nothing else like them, and they're the only thing that works now on terrestrial TV. I don't know why it took so long, but that part's never changed. You know, we've lived through so many different eras. I'm rarely outraged, I'm rarely surprised. And you know, I find sometimes young journalists they think everything's deaf con five, and I feel like, oh, this has been happening since the sixties and seventies and eighties. We've had greater challenges thirty years ago, fifty years ago. When I look at sports, I can remember Sports Illustrated having a cover story thirty years ago. TV networks will not be able to afford these leads. Delo is a Fordham. The bottom line is if I can put a truck commercial on that football or basketball game and sales are strong for that truck company or that soda company, where else are they going to put their spots and get that kind of result. So the cost of sports is greater, But Bob, I watched the World Series. All the games are sold out. I watched the NFL and college football every Saturday. All the big games are sold out. So there's a lot of fear around. It's too expensive, it's not as relatable, and kids can't go to the games. I turn on TV every weekend, Thursday Night Football, Monday Night Football, the stadiums are packed. I don't think it's changed that much. I think it's harder for a network to make a profit if they own the NFL, but they always find a way to do it. I kind of confess I'm not the biggest sports fan you'll ever meet, but I'm a huge fan of entrepreneurs in business. And what intrigues me about you is how you move from being on air talent to owning and running your own business. And you've done it by the way again and again. How do you think about that relationship between you as the on air person and you as the business person. I think I produced my show like I run my businesses. I'm a good passer. I never want to be the smartest person in the room. I like sharing the ball. I like others. I don't want to be a workaholic. I want to come into a room. I think I have some intuitive senses on what works and what doesn't for my brand, and so I don't need to always have the right answer. I'm constantly seeking pushback on my staff and on my businesses. I have a few rules. Treat people well, pay people fairly. I have a certain moral compass. I believe in But I think I run my show like my businesses, be inclusive, include people in the profits, sharing ideas. I think people want to be part of those environments. The only time I lose people on my team is when I get double the compensation. Otherwise I keep my team members, And so I think I think I'm easy to work for. I'll bark twice a year it's something I don't like. I'll fight for something I believe in. You know, a quarterback in high school. I loved having a good running game. I love turning to my running back and I didn't have to work as hard because he was scoring, he was providing the offense. I don't need to be the center of attention. You'd think in radio I have to be the center of attention. But I like really strong teammates, really strong producing. I like being part of an ensemble and a cast. That's my kind of theory on it. Don't be a ballhog share. So how did you learn business? My dad was in the stock market and there was always like a Wall Street journal or a business section of a newspaper hanging around. I like the constructive business as much as business. You know, I've tried twice to buy into an MLS franchise. I've always wanted to be, you know, an owner of a team. I've got a draft beer, I got restaurants, I have real estate, I've got companies. I've been a passive investor. The volume I own again, part of a team. I guess a lot of it comes from my dad. My dad was kind of a Reagan conservative, love business. You know, he would watch the stock market, um watch the nightly news, and you know, so he had an influence over me. You know, my mom used to always say, I was eight going on forty. I was a pretty serious kid. And so I've always hung out with people that are older than I am for most of my life. You know, they were more, i would say, professionally advanced. When I was twenty eight or twenty nine, I'm hanging around a forty year old. You know, they're in the middle, they're married, they have kids, they're not going out at night, They're talking about their business. I just enjoy it. I enjoyed the process of it. I'm always you know, whether it's I heart Fox, you know, I'm always you tell me where are their stock options? How can I help an advertiser? How can I elevate the relationship. That stuff always fascinated me because Bob talking is easy for me. Talking sports is pretty easy for me. The challenges sometimes are connecting things to my business. Where can I find a link? How do I make these things assist other things in my little world of Colin So, you know, I think at a very early age I was into it. I was talking a little bit about sports and the changes going on. You mentioned baseball, football, basketball, Well, they continue to be the big three. This year I went to Formula one here in Miami. Everyone said how much bigger Formula One was than the Super Bowl, And literally Formula one was in a parking lot. It sort of it seems too in America anyway, just come out of nowhere, you know, people are talking about pickleball. Now we've got e sports, We've got all these new permutations. How does it change the landscape of what we call sports? Well, basketball, football, and baseball are the big three. But if you look at my lifetime, boxing was far more popular at one point, but it was poorly managed. College basketball was much bigger in the seventies, eighties, nineties, but again not perfectly managed. The asked high schoolers now want to go straight to the NBA. It's become a turnstyle. Um it's it's almost emotionally remote as a sport. The best players, you're one and done, they're out horse racing. It feels like was bigger Baseball was bigger in the seventies. I think a lot of that has been iPhones and the caffeinated, frenetic lifestyles of Americans are too fast for a very slow sport. So outside of the NFL, nothing is really grown been an ascending business for the last thirty years except football. I think a large part of that, Bob is gambling, which is at a jet fuel to it, and the scarcity of games. There are so many games on television now due to cable and new platforms and streaming that the sports with the fewest games tend to be more popular. So I still think we're a basketball, football, baseball country. But I mean UFC took advantage of the lack of leadership in boxing. Pickle Ball is emerging because maybe there's not enough domestic tennis stars in America. Maybe there's an opening. You know, the Boomers don't want to run around, they got tennis elbow and sore knees. They want to be in a more condensed space. F one racing. There was a big Netflix special It caught Fire. It's international, it's cool. Nascar are still much bigger in America. That's our product, that's more domestic. But you know, I always think that the Big three or four are sort of built in to our psyche. But there's always room for a UFC or an F one. Yeah, those are more niche, but you know, I'm here for it. I mean, I think sometimes we forget as Americans how popular soccer is. I love the World Cup and I'll watch an occasional MLS match, but you know, sometimes we can be very provincial. Um, Soccer is significantly bigger. Ronaldo is significantly more globally known than Tom Brady or Peyton Anning. And I think it is the beautiful game. Uh, It's shorter, fewer commercials, goals matter more, the crowds are equally frenzied. So I think soccer globally football in America, basketball will always be at the top of the food chain. More math and magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with Colin Cowern I want to go back in time and look at your origin story. You grew up in a small fishing village south of Seattle in the sixties and seventies. Can you paint a picture of those times? And that place one of the rainiest spots in America? And I don't remember anything but sunny days with my dog in the hills of Grayland, Washington, on motorbikes with friends. I remember the summers, the sand dunes, going down to the docks. My dad loved the fish, salmon, fisherman. It was different back then. You didn't know you're isolated. I didn't think I was missing on everything. My mom was a wonderful cook. My dad was the town optometrist. We didn't have a lot of money, but we didn't lack for anything. It was a very simple life. It was a life I knew, and my sister and I talked about it all the time. It was a wonderful childhood. I got a quarterback in my high school team. I had a really fun, smart girlfriend, two or three really close friends. I was into sports. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I loved my childhood, my high school years. What did you want to be when you grew up a sportscaster when I was seven eight years old. Knew it from the very beginning. Maybe it was I didn't think my dad was paying enough attention to me. He was a workaholic. There's a way to get attention. I would do impersonations. I just knew at a very early age. I loved sports. I love watching it. I love talking it. I knew a lot more so it was impressive to people when I was ten years old and could you know rattle off stats. People couldn't believe it so very early. It made me feel good about myself. Any lessons you learned from your childhood that you used today, Yeah, there's a big difference between alone and lonely. I was alone a lot as a kid, but I was rarely lonely. I think my ability to talk for long stretches to myself is what you had to do in rural America. I didn't have neighbors next to me, and so I would play basketball and call play by play by myself. You had to be creative. I would play whiffleball right out the lineup cards, played by myself. I was constantly doing things by myself. I was alone, but I was having the time of my life. I never look at those as as lonely or sad time. I didn't know it at the time, but I was already developing my skill to talk to myself for hours and and to this day, my kids are the same way. I tell my kids, respect yourself, give yourself time. You know. I give myself an hour to an hour and a half every afternoon to read, listen to music, meditate. Um, it's really crucial time for me every day. In the early eighties, you go off to college. How did college help put you on the path that you got on to success? I identified very early how obsessed I was by sportscasting. There were six or seven other men and women who wanted to be sportscasters. None of them wanted it as badly as I did. I didn't think any of them were as talented as I did. They weren't doing impressions, they weren't listening to radio all night long and recording it on a gigantic AM FM cassette player like my mom gave me for Christmas. I was just obsessed by it, you know, I had all the things. Larry Ellison what said this? The founder of oracle. I had all the things necessary for success. Ignored, child of divorce, small town, had to make my fun, doubted, high school, acne. You know, all those things that you know are the bedrocks of many success stories. That that chip on your shoulder. I had it at a very early age. Did you ever think you might not make it? And if you did, did you have any alternative paths? Did you say, Okay, if I don't make it as the sports, I'm doing this. You know, I never gave it a lot of thought. I didn't. I never had any real self doubt. I have surpassed what my expectations were. I didn't know we'd have all these platforms I identified pretty quickly. I was good with opinions. I thought I was an average writer at best, an average TV anchor. But I thought I was quick and witty and a good storyteller and fairly, you know, good sense of humor. I could talk about anything. I read a lot, so I could. You know, you'd throw a curveball at me and I could pick it up and and hit it somewhere. So I never really gave serious thought to a second career. How do you find talent and how do you coach the talent to get the best out of them. Well, the first six months i'm with any new staff, I have to introduce them to me. So as I come in the morning, when I first got to Fox or ESPN, I take any time I can tell stories about my life. I'm trying to introduce me to the staff. So I like people engaged and people that add into the mix. But not all of them are verbal. Some are good writers, some are voracious readers. You know, I'm older, so I like a young staff staff that introduces me to new things. You know, Bob, It's just and I don't think this is any special skill. I'm often looking for people who can do what I can't. I'm not looking for yes man. I'm looking for people who have a skill I don't, or an interest I don't, and they can fill in the gaps around my personality. I think every personality has holes and gaps and strengths and liabilities. I'm looking for gap fillers. You talked a little bit about core values that you believe in. What core values do you have for the team you put together the businesses you own and run. I want us to have an honest staff. If you're six day home. If you don't think you're being treated fairly, speak up. If you get a job offered, tell me, I'll fight to keep you, but i'll be a great reference. You know, no real secrets. Tell me what you think, honest feedback. I don't have to be friends with everybody on the staff, but I want everybody to feel a friendship that's on the staff, that we're a team and we've got each other's backs. But we don't have to hang out summer, old, summer, young, some have big family, summer single, not necessarily feeling protected but supported. You know, I fought for a lot of people. I don't have to at Fox or Premier, but when I was at ESPN, I fought for a lot of people. They didn't pay very well. I had to go to boss Is more than once and banging a table to get people paid what I thought was a reasonable amount for the services provided. So when I talk about core values, they're more professional. Um. I don't dive into people's personal life. I'd prefer they don't dive into mind. But I do think there's kind of a moral code. If you're on my staff, you know, I think I'm surrounded by really good people, really people that protect me. They're there, you know, they're they're they got my back, but they can also make fun of me, you know when you talk for three hours a day, Bob. As you well know, I'm in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. But I'm an artist. I'm gonna spill paint in order to work fast, fluid, be funny, quick, witty. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna half. And if you only miss half, you're an all star. So podcasting, you were big and radio big and TV. How did you notice podcasting? You've become one of the biggest stars in sports podcasting. Where did that come from? What was your first inkling you had something? Was there? Well, it was during COVID and I got a call, I think from Julie Talbot. I have a great relationship with Julie, and Julie said, you know, it's the strangest thing. She said, there's no cars on the road, and your ratings have stabilized. It shows the loyalty of your audience. And I remember thinking, I said, you know how our sales and she said, you know, we're keeping them. We may not be growing, but we're keeping them. The show sold out, and I remember thinking, Bob, wait a minute. When covid ends there's gonna be a greater demand for spots, right, well, if I don't have space, they just go to ESPN. Where do they go? They go to other shows. So I thought, Julie, if I can own it, I'll create two thousand hours a month of inventory of space so you can put these ads on it and we can share in revenue. And so to me, it was just it goes back to kind of the business part of it. I'm like, it's gonna be hard. If I can own it, I'll do a rev share, but let me create a podcast network and very quickly I'll be writing you checks. You won't be just writing me checks. And that's how it was born. Social media. How has it made sports better and how has it made sports worse? And what role does it play in the sports fans life and the life of a sportscaster. Well, it's a visceral connection that you can reach out and touch people. Now you can reach out and connect with me. Um that part I like. I don't like the vile nature of it. I have probably a dozen social accounts, eleven are run by somebody else. I do some Twitter. I think you have to be careful. Dennis Miller of the comedian Wants said, when asked about being on Monday Night Football, do you want to look at the research? And he said no. If it's too good, I'll get cocky, and if it's bad, I'll get insecure. I try not to engage. I try not to worry about it. I don't read a lot of it. I shoot, you can't monetize my missus. You can't monetize miss shots. I just do volume. I shoot. I throw stuff out there. I hope people like it, and I think ultimately the person that puts out the most quality content over time wins. I think ours is very good. I do think it's made a lot of sportscasters leery of strong opinions. You know, nobody wants to be exposed or called out. But that's never bothered me, so in a weird way, it's made it easier for me that I think a lot of hosts are terrified of criticism. I always feel like the price and the privilege of relevance is criticism. So bring it on. Let's do some advice. What advice would you give to the major sports leagues for the growth of the sports? More kids at games, and tighter security on vulgar adults. I don't know how many times I've been in discussions with friends who just don't want to go to a pro event because people are too drunk, too loud. I couldn't tell you the last time I went to a baseball game and didn't see a fight in the stands. I wish they had tighter security, they would limit alcohol. I wish there were more kids. I want more kids at my games. You know I'm not talking four but fourteen. Excuse some advice for sports marketers and advertisers. What do they get wrong? Most often, don't think you're smarter than the public. If the public likes diet coke, give them diet coke. I think sometimes managers try to outthink the room and out clever the room. The audience tells you what they like. Listen, they like football, Labor Day, the February two. If you're not talking at sevent of the time you're doing your audience and disservice and your advertisers, your partners. The media tends to think they're smarter and funnier and more clever than they are. Play the hits. Respect your audience, Understand what topics resonate, don't outthink the room. So finally, if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your twenty one year old self. Oh boy, that's a good question. SE's where do I start. I grew up a child of divorce alcoholic father. Although he was a very gracious guy. He wasn't a mean drinker, very thoughtful, sweet, sweet guy. And because I didn't feel I had sometimes the necessary support, I became self reliant to a fault, and my only way to win and succeed in my twenties in early thirties was fear based, and I didn't look like who I was becoming. It was I had to win, and I wanted to be more joy based. I wanted to be happy when other people were successful. I was given some advice. It was sometime in nineteen eighty nine. I got out of college in eight six and went to Vegas. It was probably eighties seven and I was on a sales call with my boss, Don Logan, and he had to go to a big account and meet with the president of the Union Plaza. And he didn't want me in the room. I was too young. I was probably five years old. So I went to the Union Plaza and I sat next to a guy and he looked like he'd made money, but he'd earned it. He was a Texan. He had a rolex on, a white shirt, tan skinned, kind of a you know, like a Marlboro Man looking guy. He was sitting there with a whiskey rocks and planned poker and he was waiting for a taxicab and he just had a pretty good weekend there and he just sold a bunch of radio and TV stations in Texas or Arkansas. And I remember asking him, what advice would you give me? And it really resonated with me, and it really does now. He said, be happy for other people's success, beyond yourself. And he said it and it was one of those things that sounded great. But I wasn't in a space to be able to do that because I was so fear based and I just had to succeed. I knew I had nothing to go back to really in rural Washington, but I've gone back to that multiple times in my life, and that's one of the reasons I love the volume where I'm finding all this young talent and helping it grow and promoting it. I wish I was more joy based in my twenties and less fear based. I like my competitive spirit, but I don't want it to be hurting others. And I don't think I cared much about how it ended into my twenties and early thirties, and that was my reality, that was my psychology. So I've gone to a lot of therapy on that. I'm generally and genuinely happy for other sportscasters who have success. It makes me happy. It brings a smile to my face to see people kick butt, make money, get married, family success, and I don't think I was capable of that in my twenties, just based on my childhood and what I was dealing with personally. So we end each episode of Math and Magic by giving a shout out to the greats, because Math and Magic is about the analytical side of business, the math, and the really creative side of business, the magic. You know, it's rare you find one person who does both equally. Well, who's your mathematician, who's your magician? Let me start with my magician. I'm not sure if you ever read the Steve Jobs book. I think it was by Walter Isaacson. It was like four books in one. You learn about technology, Microsoft, Steve Jobs, Apple. You know. One of the things I took from that that I thought was so fascinating was that Steve Jobs his vision of the iPhone is I'm going to create something you can't live without, but you don't know it yet. I think that's so fascinating, and I think so few people can do that that I can't live without my iPhone today. Steve Jobs saw that thirty years ago, twenty years ago. To be able to see around that corner, it's wizardry. I'm endlessly fascinated with the future and mostly bored with the past, and so Steve Jobs, to me is everything I would want from a boss. I just think he's such a unique American innovator the math question. One of the most fascinating people in sports, and you would not think of him as mad athy, but he was a chemist. Was Jerry Buss, the former owner of the Lakers and Jerry Buss through his personal Piccadillos really changed sports in America. That he brought the Laker girls. Nobody did that, the forum club, nobody did that, the lighting for Laker games. It became a television product, not just an in person product. When I look at the structural branding of the Lakers, from the uniform colors to putting celebrities in the front row, to the nightclub atmosphere, it's almost like Jerry Buss skipped a generation. He was a generation ahead of everybody on that. It's why the Lakers are one of the only major cities in America that are a basketball brand over a football brand. He just vis really just emotionally connected. The mailman in your street, the celebrity in Beverly Hills or bell Air. They all felt the same about the Lakers. It was their team. He made sports cool. When I watched the winning time on HBO, I sat back and I thought he was decades ahead of his time. Colin. Congrats on all your success and thanks for sharing your stories today. Ah Bob, thanks so much. I loved it. Thank you so much, and thanks, by the way for all you're doing with us. We love having you as part of our family too. I love being part of the family. Thank you, Bob. Here are a few things I picked up in my conversation with Colin. One, listen to your audience. Collins advice to advertisers is when the audience tells you what they like, believe them. Colin says, play the hits and don't try to outthink the room. To us the ball, even the most skilled athletes shouldn't hog the ball. By sharing responsibilities among a trusted team, you can amplify everyone's strings. Three. Prioritize cause over effect. When doing research, Colin doesn't ask what he asked why. This curiosity around root causes is one of the things that makes Colin such a compelling storyteller. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Susan Ward for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feet. Our editors are Derrek Clements and Emily Maynot. Our producer Morgan Levoy, our executive producer Nikki Etour and of course Gail Raoul, Eeric Angel, Noel and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until next time,