You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.

You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.

I didn't really think about it as a business at first, and then eventually, when we put it up on a bit of a lark, we started to see people calling, and suddenly we were getting you have twenty seven calls this hour, and then later I would call it and say, you have one hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour. Like that started happening, and we were amazed by it.

I didn't really think about it as a business at first, and then eventually, when we put it up on a bit of a lark, we started to see people calling, and suddenly we were getting you have twenty seven calls this hour, and then later I would call it and say, you have one hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour. Like that started happening, and we were amazed by it.

I am Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on episodes Today, we're going to hear some lessons and stories from a man whose life has been about curiosity and the unique skills to turn that curiosity in the businesses and projects and have fun along the way. Entrepreneur filmmaker Andrew Dreki. Andrew grew up in the New York City suburbs in the sixties and seventies, wildly successful and very curious parents with an incredible workout think a family of high achievers. He started one of those businesses everyone used in the nineteen nineties, moviefone. I was at AOL when we bought it, and although I knew Andrew before then I got to know him a lot better after that. He co wrote a theme song for a hit TV show, directed a movie with Ryan Gosling, made a documentary that won eighteen international prizes and was nominated for an Academy Award. He produced a movie Catfish, and the HBO series The Jinx, The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst, which led to his arrest and prosecution. He's a fascinating blend between street culture and the Ivy League. He's really funny, equally as nice, and he also plays drums. Andrew welcome, Thank you. So before we jump into the meaty stuff, I want to do you in sixty seconds. You ready perfect? Do you prefer cats or dogs?

I am Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on episodes Today, we're going to hear some lessons and stories from a man whose life has been about curiosity and the unique skills to turn that curiosity in the businesses and projects and have fun along the way. Entrepreneur filmmaker Andrew Dreki. Andrew grew up in the New York City suburbs in the sixties and seventies, wildly successful and very curious parents with an incredible workout think a family of high achievers. He started one of those businesses everyone used in the nineteen nineties, moviefone. I was at AOL when we bought it, and although I knew Andrew before then I got to know him a lot better after that. He co wrote a theme song for a hit TV show, directed a movie with Ryan Gosling, made a documentary that won eighteen international prizes and was nominated for an Academy Award. He produced a movie Catfish, and the HBO series The Jinx, The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst, which led to his arrest and prosecution. He's a fascinating blend between street culture and the Ivy League. He's really funny, equally as nice, and he also plays drums. Andrew welcome, Thank you. So before we jump into the meaty stuff, I want to do you in sixty seconds. You ready perfect? Do you prefer cats or dogs?

Dogs?

Dogs?

Early Riser or night Owl? Night Ol New York or Los Angeles, New York? Cocher PEPSI Iced Team, Beach, your mountains, beach or stones.

Early Riser or night Owl? Night Ol New York or Los Angeles, New York? Cocher PEPSI Iced Team, Beach, your mountains, beach or stones.

Everything is the Beatles, books or movies, movies, cook or Eat out, Eat out comedy or drama comedy.

Everything is the Beatles, books or movies, movies, cook or Eat out, Eat out comedy or drama comedy.

It's about to get harder. First job, I was a magician, all time favorite musical artist, Stevie Wonder, favorite TV show, The Bear, Smartest person you know.

It's about to get harder. First job, I was a magician, all time favorite musical artist, Stevie Wonder, favorite TV show, The Bear, Smartest person you know.

My dad childhood hero, Willy Wonka.

My dad childhood hero, Willy Wonka.

Favorite movie Willy Wonka on the chocolate Factory technology. You can't live without it.

Favorite movie Willy Wonka on the chocolate Factory technology. You can't live without it.

I have a snowcone machine.

I have a snowcone machine.

I cannot live without that most important bit of advice you ever got from my dad.

I cannot live without that most important bit of advice you ever got from my dad.

Don't just do something? Stand there, Favorite city, Rome, secret talent. I was Duncan Yo Yo champion in nineteen seventy three.

Don't just do something? Stand there, Favorite city, Rome, secret talent. I was Duncan Yo Yo champion in nineteen seventy three.

Have you lost a skill? Kind of Okay? Final one? What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Have you lost a skill? Kind of Okay? Final one? What did you want to be when you were growing up?

I think I wanted to be a filmmaker.

I think I wanted to be a filmmaker.

Let's start with moviefone. It was pre and early internet. It was a way to get movie listings for people who are young and don't understand moviefone. Everybody used it. That's where you got the info about what movie was out. You could buy your tickets there, and those were in the days when you talked into a phone to get stuff done as opposed to going on the internet. And everyone really knew the voice of mister movie Phone. Give us the origin story.

Let's start with moviefone. It was pre and early internet. It was a way to get movie listings for people who are young and don't understand moviefone. Everybody used it. That's where you got the info about what movie was out. You could buy your tickets there, and those were in the days when you talked into a phone to get stuff done as opposed to going on the internet. And everyone really knew the voice of mister movie Phone. Give us the origin story.

I was trying to go to the movies around nineteen eighty eight, and I was calling my local theater, which you used to have to do because the New York Times didn't have all the show times in it. The theater phone lines were always busy because the theaters didn't understand that there were two thousand people trying to call in a twenty minute period for that night. And I got through at eight fifteen and the machine told me that the movie had started at eight o'clock. And I thought, why did I just ruin my night? And this multi billion dollar movie industry doesn't get that I'm not able to go out and buy my seven dollars then movie ticket. So I thought, you know, voicemail was pretty advanced then, and I thought, well, don't we create a service that lets you push buttons. Maybe it's a free local service and you put in the first three letters of the movie title, put in your zip code, and it would spit out just the theater closest to you, just the information that you needed. I thought that would be a cool thing for me to use. I didn't really think about it as a business at first, and then eventually, when we put it up on a bit of a lark, we started to see people calling and suddenly we were getting you have twenty seven calls this hour, and then later I would call it and say, you have one hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour like that started happening, and we were amazed by it.

I was trying to go to the movies around nineteen eighty eight, and I was calling my local theater, which you used to have to do because the New York Times didn't have all the show times in it. The theater phone lines were always busy because the theaters didn't understand that there were two thousand people trying to call in a twenty minute period for that night. And I got through at eight fifteen and the machine told me that the movie had started at eight o'clock. And I thought, why did I just ruin my night? And this multi billion dollar movie industry doesn't get that I'm not able to go out and buy my seven dollars then movie ticket. So I thought, you know, voicemail was pretty advanced then, and I thought, well, don't we create a service that lets you push buttons. Maybe it's a free local service and you put in the first three letters of the movie title, put in your zip code, and it would spit out just the theater closest to you, just the information that you needed. I thought that would be a cool thing for me to use. I didn't really think about it as a business at first, and then eventually, when we put it up on a bit of a lark, we started to see people calling and suddenly we were getting you have twenty seven calls this hour, and then later I would call it and say, you have one hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour like that started happening, and we were amazed by it.

And so that's the idea. You get it started. How did you know how to turn that into a business. Remember we were on the buying end of it. You sold it for a lot of money.

And so that's the idea. You get it started. How did you know how to turn that into a business. Remember we were on the buying end of it. You sold it for a lot of money.

It's true. And you know, I was very lucky because my dad is a very smart business person. And you know, he started out as a psychiatrist. He was a professor of psychiatry at Yale, but he always had a business bug. He was so smart about business. So I think I immediately thought, well, this thing that we just put together seems to be working for consumers. I wonder how much I can promote it. I wonder how I can promote it. I talked to my dad about it. I talked to other smart people that I knew. It was pretty clear that all of our customers were walking through the doors of about five thousand cinemas in America. So if I could get the number seven seven seven film in front of people, up on the screens and trailers before the movie, I also figured out everybody's motivations quickly. I went to a bunch of conventions, Show East and Show West. I didn't know anybody, and I just walked around talked to everybody. This is the movie business in the movie business, and I realized that nobody was talking to each other. They didn't understand that moviegoers were having trouble going to the movies. It was just a pain in the neck to do it. And the studios didn't really control the theaters. The theaters didn't control the studios, and I thought, well, there's a window in here where I could make things easier for the consumer and also make something that would be very useful for the endo. So we just started to figure out where are the little pinch points and leverage points. So, for example, I knew that the theater owners had control over their movie screens. At the time, nobody was doing advertising on movie screens. So I said to the theater owners, if I give you a thirty second ad for moviefone and it's entertaining, will you put it up on their screens. Knowing that they had a problem, which was that the newspapers were charging them a fortune to put their movie listings in the newspapers. The studios weren't helping them, so they said well, if this guy's coming along, it is going to do it for free. I'll give him thirty seconds of free time before the movie. So that was an example of some marketing thinking that helped us tremendously, and it was a very you know, what do they say, all marketing is local, you know, getting out into the movie theaters, handing out little cards to people, getting that message up on the screen. It sort of flowed naturally.

It's true. And you know, I was very lucky because my dad is a very smart business person. And you know, he started out as a psychiatrist. He was a professor of psychiatry at Yale, but he always had a business bug. He was so smart about business. So I think I immediately thought, well, this thing that we just put together seems to be working for consumers. I wonder how much I can promote it. I wonder how I can promote it. I talked to my dad about it. I talked to other smart people that I knew. It was pretty clear that all of our customers were walking through the doors of about five thousand cinemas in America. So if I could get the number seven seven seven film in front of people, up on the screens and trailers before the movie, I also figured out everybody's motivations quickly. I went to a bunch of conventions, Show East and Show West. I didn't know anybody, and I just walked around talked to everybody. This is the movie business in the movie business, and I realized that nobody was talking to each other. They didn't understand that moviegoers were having trouble going to the movies. It was just a pain in the neck to do it. And the studios didn't really control the theaters. The theaters didn't control the studios, and I thought, well, there's a window in here where I could make things easier for the consumer and also make something that would be very useful for the endo. So we just started to figure out where are the little pinch points and leverage points. So, for example, I knew that the theater owners had control over their movie screens. At the time, nobody was doing advertising on movie screens. So I said to the theater owners, if I give you a thirty second ad for moviefone and it's entertaining, will you put it up on their screens. Knowing that they had a problem, which was that the newspapers were charging them a fortune to put their movie listings in the newspapers. The studios weren't helping them, so they said well, if this guy's coming along, it is going to do it for free. I'll give him thirty seconds of free time before the movie. So that was an example of some marketing thinking that helped us tremendously, and it was a very you know, what do they say, all marketing is local, you know, getting out into the movie theaters, handing out little cards to people, getting that message up on the screen. It sort of flowed naturally.

And where did mister moviefone come from?

And where did mister moviefone come from?

The voice very interesting? The voice was very important and if you call right now, you can't really hear it anywhere, but if you call my wife's cell phone, you'll hear hello and welcome to a Nancy phone. It became really important to the brand. And it was lucky because when I started the company in eighty eight eighty nine, I found that there were a couple guys in Los Angeles who were doing the exact same thing that we were. We saw a little blurb about them in the Hollywood Reporter. We called him up on the phone and I said, well, I'd like to speak to the president please, and the guy said speaking and I thought, well that's good. This is a tiny little company, And so we decided to join forces. And he was the voice. And he was a guy from Idaho with a mustard colored suit and big shoulder pads, and he had a big hairstyle. And he was nothing like me. You know, I'd gone to school on the East Coast and grown up in a totally different way. But we had been working on the same idea quietly for a long time. And I learned by the way later from him that not only was he the voice of movie phone and of very recognizable voice, but that his mother in Idaho was the time lady. She was the person you would call and she would say at the tone, the time will be eleven forty five exactly, boob. I thought that was kind of incredibic. It's genetic.

The voice very interesting? The voice was very important and if you call right now, you can't really hear it anywhere, but if you call my wife's cell phone, you'll hear hello and welcome to a Nancy phone. It became really important to the brand. And it was lucky because when I started the company in eighty eight eighty nine, I found that there were a couple guys in Los Angeles who were doing the exact same thing that we were. We saw a little blurb about them in the Hollywood Reporter. We called him up on the phone and I said, well, I'd like to speak to the president please, and the guy said speaking and I thought, well that's good. This is a tiny little company, And so we decided to join forces. And he was the voice. And he was a guy from Idaho with a mustard colored suit and big shoulder pads, and he had a big hairstyle. And he was nothing like me. You know, I'd gone to school on the East Coast and grown up in a totally different way. But we had been working on the same idea quietly for a long time. And I learned by the way later from him that not only was he the voice of movie phone and of very recognizable voice, but that his mother in Idaho was the time lady. She was the person you would call and she would say at the tone, the time will be eleven forty five exactly, boob. I thought that was kind of incredibic. It's genetic.

So why did you decide to sell the business?

So why did you decide to sell the business?

I had been doing it for around I think eleven years, and then I ran into you. I went to the premiere of You've Got Mail, which is a movie that featured AO well, and it also had a little movie phone blurb in it. It was Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan are walking around and you hear the hello and welcome movie phone, and I was sitting right in front of you and the whole AOL team was there. And I got up and you said to me, how you doing? And I said good. He said, what's going on with your business? And I had just been in these conversations and I didn't know where the conversations were going. I had a friend who was a banker, and my friend said to me, what's going on? And I said, well, I'm talking to Barry Dealer about this thing, and I'm talking to this other guy about this thing. And he said, oh, you're selling your company. And I said no, no, you don't understand. I'm going to do a strategic alliance with somebody. And he said, Andrew, I've been doing this a long time. You're selling your company. And then you said, well, you know, but come visit me. And then I had a phone call with you and you said, listen, I'd love to see you, but if you're going to come, just to let you know, like big companies don't do strategic alliances with little, tiny companies, like we just buy those companies. So if that's on the radar for you, if that's something that's possible, then we should get together. And I thought, maybe that's right, Maybe that is how this is going to end up playing out, so we started moving forward.

I had been doing it for around I think eleven years, and then I ran into you. I went to the premiere of You've Got Mail, which is a movie that featured AO well, and it also had a little movie phone blurb in it. It was Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan are walking around and you hear the hello and welcome movie phone, and I was sitting right in front of you and the whole AOL team was there. And I got up and you said to me, how you doing? And I said good. He said, what's going on with your business? And I had just been in these conversations and I didn't know where the conversations were going. I had a friend who was a banker, and my friend said to me, what's going on? And I said, well, I'm talking to Barry Dealer about this thing, and I'm talking to this other guy about this thing. And he said, oh, you're selling your company. And I said no, no, you don't understand. I'm going to do a strategic alliance with somebody. And he said, Andrew, I've been doing this a long time. You're selling your company. And then you said, well, you know, but come visit me. And then I had a phone call with you and you said, listen, I'd love to see you, but if you're going to come, just to let you know, like big companies don't do strategic alliances with little, tiny companies, like we just buy those companies. So if that's on the radar for you, if that's something that's possible, then we should get together. And I thought, maybe that's right, Maybe that is how this is going to end up playing out, so we started moving forward.

This was your first big win, probably financially and probably image wise and accomplishment. How did it change your own self image?

This was your first big win, probably financially and probably image wise and accomplishment. How did it change your own self image?

You know, it's a boost because you feel like this thing that you've been laboring over in the shadows has been noticed. It was clear to me also that it was going to be fun process, that I was going to learn something. I was going to learn something from you, I was going to learn something from the people on the deal. It was a new chapter to think about taking this thing and bringing it into another company.

You know, it's a boost because you feel like this thing that you've been laboring over in the shadows has been noticed. It was clear to me also that it was going to be fun process, that I was going to learn something. I was going to learn something from you, I was going to learn something from the people on the deal. It was a new chapter to think about taking this thing and bringing it into another company.

You and I became pretty good pals after the AOL days, and you always had a good story about something, And I remember you said, you know, I'm thinking about how I'm going to make a documentary about the clowns for kids parties. Then the next time I saw you and ask you how that film was coming along, you said, well, it taken a strange and unexpected turn. Can you tell us the story of capturing the Freedman's which, by the way, was nominated for an Academy Award in One Sun Dance and a bunch of other awards.

You and I became pretty good pals after the AOL days, and you always had a good story about something, And I remember you said, you know, I'm thinking about how I'm going to make a documentary about the clowns for kids parties. Then the next time I saw you and ask you how that film was coming along, you said, well, it taken a strange and unexpected turn. Can you tell us the story of capturing the Freedman's which, by the way, was nominated for an Academy Award in One Sun Dance and a bunch of other awards.

It was a very strange ride and a wonderful ride in a lot of ways, because, as I said, I was a magician when I was twelve years old, I could charge thirty five dollars and I could go to people's houses and entertain their children at the birthday party. I had moved on and stopped doing that when I was twelve, Yet these people were always in my mind because they were interesting characters. You know, they call each other by their clown names and real life, and Silly Billy is best friends with Princess Priscilla, and when they have issues in their relationship, they go to Professor Putter. And I thought, this is a crazy, amazing community. I bet there's a lot of humanity there. I bet if I go talk to these people, I'll find an interesting story. So I reached out to many of them and ultimately settled on this guy, Silly Billy, who was the number one guy in New York.

It was a very strange ride and a wonderful ride in a lot of ways, because, as I said, I was a magician when I was twelve years old, I could charge thirty five dollars and I could go to people's houses and entertain their children at the birthday party. I had moved on and stopped doing that when I was twelve, Yet these people were always in my mind because they were interesting characters. You know, they call each other by their clown names and real life, and Silly Billy is best friends with Princess Priscilla, and when they have issues in their relationship, they go to Professor Putter. And I thought, this is a crazy, amazing community. I bet there's a lot of humanity there. I bet if I go talk to these people, I'll find an interesting story. So I reached out to many of them and ultimately settled on this guy, Silly Billy, who was the number one guy in New York.

And I remember Silly Billy from my kids.

And I remember Silly Billy from my kids.

Yeah, And if you were if it was a fancy Park Avenue family, if you didn't hire Silly Billy, you were not keeping up with the rest of the people on Park Avenue. And I remember I kind of held off on talking to him because I knew that he had a big ego, and I thought if I called him right off the bat, he would torture me. So I waited until I talked to everybody else, all of his competitors, and finally I called him and I said, you know, I'm thinking I'm making this film and he said, well, it's not much of a film without me in it. And I said, okay, well fair enough. You know, do you want to participate? Well, yeah, okay, come on over. So I started to interview him, and ultimately I discovered that he had a secret story and that his sort of clown persona was something that he had been living under for all these years. And I never thought there was anything sinister about him, but I learned very quickly that his family had been the target of a massive criminal case where they had been accused of what at the time was called a mass sex abuse case, that they'd been accused of molesting hundreds of children. And I thought, well, this is an incredibly deep and complicated situation where you have somebody who's New York's number one children's entertainer and his family is one of the most notorious families in the history of New York. And then as I got deeper into it, I found out there was a lot more to the story, and in fact, it wasn't what I thought when I first looked into it. And I went back to him and I said, you've sort of hinted things to me, just to let you know I did figure it out. And eventually he said to me, well, if that's what you're making a movie about, I don't know how I feel about that, but I probably should tell you that when my family was the subject of this big criminal investigation and the police came and knocked down the door of our house in Great Neck Long Island, I had just bought a video camera and I started recording the family falling apart, and that was one of the most unique pieces of video, or about twenty two hours of the most intimate, most upsetting, internal family discussions, and they really traced what was happening to the family, and that became a really important part of the film. So the film shifted tremendously from what I originally thought to what it became.

Yeah, And if you were if it was a fancy Park Avenue family, if you didn't hire Silly Billy, you were not keeping up with the rest of the people on Park Avenue. And I remember I kind of held off on talking to him because I knew that he had a big ego, and I thought if I called him right off the bat, he would torture me. So I waited until I talked to everybody else, all of his competitors, and finally I called him and I said, you know, I'm thinking I'm making this film and he said, well, it's not much of a film without me in it. And I said, okay, well fair enough. You know, do you want to participate? Well, yeah, okay, come on over. So I started to interview him, and ultimately I discovered that he had a secret story and that his sort of clown persona was something that he had been living under for all these years. And I never thought there was anything sinister about him, but I learned very quickly that his family had been the target of a massive criminal case where they had been accused of what at the time was called a mass sex abuse case, that they'd been accused of molesting hundreds of children. And I thought, well, this is an incredibly deep and complicated situation where you have somebody who's New York's number one children's entertainer and his family is one of the most notorious families in the history of New York. And then as I got deeper into it, I found out there was a lot more to the story, and in fact, it wasn't what I thought when I first looked into it. And I went back to him and I said, you've sort of hinted things to me, just to let you know I did figure it out. And eventually he said to me, well, if that's what you're making a movie about, I don't know how I feel about that, but I probably should tell you that when my family was the subject of this big criminal investigation and the police came and knocked down the door of our house in Great Neck Long Island, I had just bought a video camera and I started recording the family falling apart, and that was one of the most unique pieces of video, or about twenty two hours of the most intimate, most upsetting, internal family discussions, and they really traced what was happening to the family, and that became a really important part of the film. So the film shifted tremendously from what I originally thought to what it became.

You ever feel guilty about having that insider access, I mean, what kind of emotions come up because suddenly you're right in the middle of it.

You ever feel guilty about having that insider access, I mean, what kind of emotions come up because suddenly you're right in the middle of it.

Yeah, I mean, I found myself in that situation a lot. I think that I come to it with an open heart. I try to be fair to people. In that case, it was up to silly Billy. It was up to David Friedman to decide whether to let me use that material. There was a multi month period when he had shown me the material. I knew how powerful it was, and he had not yet decided whether he was going to give it to me or not.

Yeah, I mean, I found myself in that situation a lot. I think that I come to it with an open heart. I try to be fair to people. In that case, it was up to silly Billy. It was up to David Friedman to decide whether to let me use that material. There was a multi month period when he had shown me the material. I knew how powerful it was, and he had not yet decided whether he was going to give it to me or not.

What lesson did you learn about product creation with this film? I mean, we all talk in business about pivots. That's a hell of a pivot.

What lesson did you learn about product creation with this film? I mean, we all talk in business about pivots. That's a hell of a pivot.

I think the most important thing for me is always just to try to follow my intuition. There were many times when I noticed little things about the story and they made me curious, and I tried to stay open, and I tried to be a good listener, because people really do want to tell you their story. I remember Al Masles, the great documentary filmmaker, said to me when I was in the middle of capturing the Friedman's and I was worried that I was going to expose this family in a way, and they had had already been very traumatized. You know, whatever you thought about them. They had really been very damaged by it, and he said, nobody wants to die without telling their story. You're doing them a favor, and you're going to do it with fairness and with love.

I think the most important thing for me is always just to try to follow my intuition. There were many times when I noticed little things about the story and they made me curious, and I tried to stay open, and I tried to be a good listener, because people really do want to tell you their story. I remember Al Masles, the great documentary filmmaker, said to me when I was in the middle of capturing the Friedman's and I was worried that I was going to expose this family in a way, and they had had already been very traumatized. You know, whatever you thought about them. They had really been very damaged by it, and he said, nobody wants to die without telling their story. You're doing them a favor, and you're going to do it with fairness and with love.

Catfish the movie, it's also a TV show? How about that one? Give us the origin there and here you are dealing with the unexpected again.

Catfish the movie, it's also a TV show? How about that one? Give us the origin there and here you are dealing with the unexpected again.

This is a very strange way that you and I crossed paths again, because that would never have happened if it weren't for you, guys. I was in Los Angeles working on a film and Nancy said to me, you know, the Pittmans are calling and they sent you this thing and there's this DVD. And I remember thinking, oh, right, I got that DVD. I promised that I would watch it, so I just started watching it at about midnight, and I couldn't take my eyes off this footage. And it wasn't yet a film, but it was the beginnings of something. And it was a story about a guy, Neim Shulman, who was a friend of yours and his brother and their friend, and how this eight year old girl had sent Neiva Facebook message saying Hey, I'm only eight, but I'm a painter. I saw one of your photographs, and I'd like to do a painting of it, would you mind? You've said, okay, you can do it, and she did this painting, and a few months later she sends him the painting and it's quite good, perhaps curiously strangely good for an eight year old, And they get into a conversation with her mother, and the filmmakers start filming it, and they meet not just her mother, but also her sister who's nineteen, and a whole constellation of other people in this little girl's life, and at some point it becomes clear that maybe the story is not as innocent as we thought, and then the boys go on a road trip out to Ishpeming, Michigan, to discover what's really going on and what's really behind this eight year old painter. The story was so gripping when I was watching it, and it wasn't even together yet, and I remember thinking I can help, and we can help bring this thing to the screen in a more substantial way, and we agreed to work together on it. And then it was a sun dance, and then it was a big hit, and then it turned into this television show. But it's another one of those stories that you think is going one way and then goes a very different way.

This is a very strange way that you and I crossed paths again, because that would never have happened if it weren't for you, guys. I was in Los Angeles working on a film and Nancy said to me, you know, the Pittmans are calling and they sent you this thing and there's this DVD. And I remember thinking, oh, right, I got that DVD. I promised that I would watch it, so I just started watching it at about midnight, and I couldn't take my eyes off this footage. And it wasn't yet a film, but it was the beginnings of something. And it was a story about a guy, Neim Shulman, who was a friend of yours and his brother and their friend, and how this eight year old girl had sent Neiva Facebook message saying Hey, I'm only eight, but I'm a painter. I saw one of your photographs, and I'd like to do a painting of it, would you mind? You've said, okay, you can do it, and she did this painting, and a few months later she sends him the painting and it's quite good, perhaps curiously strangely good for an eight year old, And they get into a conversation with her mother, and the filmmakers start filming it, and they meet not just her mother, but also her sister who's nineteen, and a whole constellation of other people in this little girl's life, and at some point it becomes clear that maybe the story is not as innocent as we thought, and then the boys go on a road trip out to Ishpeming, Michigan, to discover what's really going on and what's really behind this eight year old painter. The story was so gripping when I was watching it, and it wasn't even together yet, and I remember thinking I can help, and we can help bring this thing to the screen in a more substantial way, and we agreed to work together on it. And then it was a sun dance, and then it was a big hit, and then it turned into this television show. But it's another one of those stories that you think is going one way and then goes a very different way.

Okay, I'm gonna do one last one and then we'll get to some other topics. Robert Durst talk about a strange twist and turn. I remember you made the scriptive movie about him, and now I probably murdered his wife. And then he calls you and things pivot, big Pivot, tell us about it.

Okay, I'm gonna do one last one and then we'll get to some other topics. Robert Durst talk about a strange twist and turn. I remember you made the scriptive movie about him, and now I probably murdered his wife. And then he calls you and things pivot, big Pivot, tell us about it.

So I had been interested in the story of Bob Durst, who had been suspected of killing three people but never convicted and in fact, never really even tried for anything other than one of them, and he had been acquitted. And I thought that what was perhaps most interesting about it was that he had this beautiful wife, and in nineteen eighty two she disappeared and nobody knew what happened, and tour and a lot of people suspected him of killing her. So I started writing a screenplay about that story and reached out to Bob Durst through his lawyer, and his lawyer said, oh, Bob's a very private guy, and you know he wishes you well, but he doesn't want to participate or help you with your script. And I said okay, and then we finished the film, and there had been a little speculation while we were making the film that while I was with Ryan Gosling and Kirsten Dunst in Westchester shooting at a train station and so on the scripted film, that somebody had been kind of spying on us, that somebody was off in the bushes or somebody was in a car nearby, and I thought, well, that's crazy. Ultimately I learned that that was true. And so the guy who had been so curious about it was Bob Durst. How old was he at this time, He was in his late sixties, and so he had reached out through the distributor of the film, Magnolia Pictures. Just one day he Amon Bowles, the guy who is the head of the company, and we used to do this thing where I would use Bob's voice because he has a very recognizable voice. So we would just joke around like that, and I would when I was hanging up on the fastiar of the voice, I would say if I was finishing the call, I would say bye bye, which is how Bob says goodbye, and other things like that. And so one day Amon gets a phone call and the assistant comes in and in air quote says, you know, it's Bob Durst on the phone. And he picks up the phone, assuming it's me, and he says, oh, Bob, I'm glad you're calling. And the guy on the phone says, who am I talking to? And Amon says, oh, this is Amon Bolts. Who is this? This is Robert Durst. So Amon was very very nervous about this, and he called me and he said, listen, Bob Durst wants to get in touch with you. And he put us in touch. And because I had Bob's cell phone number, because he had made the first call, I was able to record the first call I ever made to him. He and I started talking and he said, well, you know, I want to see the movie. I've heard good things about the movie. I said, great, I want to show it to you. I went out to LA I showed it to him in a screening room. He called me right after he saw it and he said, I want you to know I like the movie very much, and let's talk about doing something together. We started talking about maybe doing an interview, and finally I did sit down with him for three days in California and interviewed him about all these subjects. That you know, camera rolling when you oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had three cameras because I knew it was so unusual that somebody was in his position and would be willing to talk about and be asked questions about these three murders. And his position was I didn't do any of these murders, but I thought, well, he probably did, and I'm fascinated to see how he's going to describe these things to me. So we did these three days of interviews, and then it became clear to me that it was going to require a reinvestigation of the case, that I might be able to find things that the police hadn't found. And then in fact we did, and we discovered a piece of evidence that tied him to the mur.

So I had been interested in the story of Bob Durst, who had been suspected of killing three people but never convicted and in fact, never really even tried for anything other than one of them, and he had been acquitted. And I thought that what was perhaps most interesting about it was that he had this beautiful wife, and in nineteen eighty two she disappeared and nobody knew what happened, and tour and a lot of people suspected him of killing her. So I started writing a screenplay about that story and reached out to Bob Durst through his lawyer, and his lawyer said, oh, Bob's a very private guy, and you know he wishes you well, but he doesn't want to participate or help you with your script. And I said okay, and then we finished the film, and there had been a little speculation while we were making the film that while I was with Ryan Gosling and Kirsten Dunst in Westchester shooting at a train station and so on the scripted film, that somebody had been kind of spying on us, that somebody was off in the bushes or somebody was in a car nearby, and I thought, well, that's crazy. Ultimately I learned that that was true. And so the guy who had been so curious about it was Bob Durst. How old was he at this time, He was in his late sixties, and so he had reached out through the distributor of the film, Magnolia Pictures. Just one day he Amon Bowles, the guy who is the head of the company, and we used to do this thing where I would use Bob's voice because he has a very recognizable voice. So we would just joke around like that, and I would when I was hanging up on the fastiar of the voice, I would say if I was finishing the call, I would say bye bye, which is how Bob says goodbye, and other things like that. And so one day Amon gets a phone call and the assistant comes in and in air quote says, you know, it's Bob Durst on the phone. And he picks up the phone, assuming it's me, and he says, oh, Bob, I'm glad you're calling. And the guy on the phone says, who am I talking to? And Amon says, oh, this is Amon Bolts. Who is this? This is Robert Durst. So Amon was very very nervous about this, and he called me and he said, listen, Bob Durst wants to get in touch with you. And he put us in touch. And because I had Bob's cell phone number, because he had made the first call, I was able to record the first call I ever made to him. He and I started talking and he said, well, you know, I want to see the movie. I've heard good things about the movie. I said, great, I want to show it to you. I went out to LA I showed it to him in a screening room. He called me right after he saw it and he said, I want you to know I like the movie very much, and let's talk about doing something together. We started talking about maybe doing an interview, and finally I did sit down with him for three days in California and interviewed him about all these subjects. That you know, camera rolling when you oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had three cameras because I knew it was so unusual that somebody was in his position and would be willing to talk about and be asked questions about these three murders. And his position was I didn't do any of these murders, but I thought, well, he probably did, and I'm fascinated to see how he's going to describe these things to me. So we did these three days of interviews, and then it became clear to me that it was going to require a reinvestigation of the case, that I might be able to find things that the police hadn't found. And then in fact we did, and we discovered a piece of evidence that tied him to the mur.

Like true crime podcasts before their time, Yeah, yeah, solve the murder. Yeah.

Like true crime podcasts before their time, Yeah, yeah, solve the murder. Yeah.

It was a very unusual situation, and it was really the first among the very first times that HBO or a broadcaster like that had decided it was okay to do a six part documentary series. Because it was so much gripping material in it, there was no way to do it. It's just a film, So it ended up being this sort of behemoth and then what's unique about it is that in the last episode he confesses, and he confesses in a very unusual way, accidentally on a hot mic in the bathroom, because I think he was so burdened by this information, and I think he did, in his own way, feel guilty and feel that he had killed the person that probably loved him most in the world, his wife. And so when I finished the conversation and I show him the evidence, he goes in the bathroom seconds later and he says, there it is, You're caught. And then a few minutes later he's rambling, because he does talk to himself. He's rambling in the bathroom and he says, killed them all, of course, and that became headline news. It was literally in the front page of New York Times, I think three times in a row this story. And he was arrested the day before the final episode aired on HBO. That's never happened.

It was a very unusual situation, and it was really the first among the very first times that HBO or a broadcaster like that had decided it was okay to do a six part documentary series. Because it was so much gripping material in it, there was no way to do it. It's just a film, So it ended up being this sort of behemoth and then what's unique about it is that in the last episode he confesses, and he confesses in a very unusual way, accidentally on a hot mic in the bathroom, because I think he was so burdened by this information, and I think he did, in his own way, feel guilty and feel that he had killed the person that probably loved him most in the world, his wife. And so when I finished the conversation and I show him the evidence, he goes in the bathroom seconds later and he says, there it is, You're caught. And then a few minutes later he's rambling, because he does talk to himself. He's rambling in the bathroom and he says, killed them all, of course, and that became headline news. It was literally in the front page of New York Times, I think three times in a row this story. And he was arrested the day before the final episode aired on HBO. That's never happened.

And he was preparing to leave the country, correct, and he was getting ready to go to Cuba. You went through a long period with Durst in your life, eighteen years. How did your family react sharing you with that obsession.

And he was preparing to leave the country, correct, and he was getting ready to go to Cuba. You went through a long period with Durst in your life, eighteen years. How did your family react sharing you with that obsession.

Well, I remember the last episode was sort of in the offing, and Bob knew for a period of time that the show was going to be very bad for him. In the beginning, I think he thought, well, this will be fun. It'll be the me show. I can say whatever I want and they'll just film it and it'll go on television. So for him, I think there was a you know, there was just a narcissistic thrill to it. But as it was clear to him that I had found this evidence, and as I showed him the evidence, he started to get more and more anxious about it. And then my family started to get more anxious about him, knowing that because he hadn't been arrested, and at one point the FBI was trailing him, and I had an FBI agent that I was talking to all the time, and then one day he called me up he said, yeah, we lost him, and so that morning I think I got a security detail. And I remember meeting with my daughter the night before. We were having dinner and I said she was little at the time, and I said to her, just so you know, tomorrow we're going to have some other people with us when we go take you to school, and she immediately started crying. So she knew that it was an unusual time.

Well, I remember the last episode was sort of in the offing, and Bob knew for a period of time that the show was going to be very bad for him. In the beginning, I think he thought, well, this will be fun. It'll be the me show. I can say whatever I want and they'll just film it and it'll go on television. So for him, I think there was a you know, there was just a narcissistic thrill to it. But as it was clear to him that I had found this evidence, and as I showed him the evidence, he started to get more and more anxious about it. And then my family started to get more anxious about him, knowing that because he hadn't been arrested, and at one point the FBI was trailing him, and I had an FBI agent that I was talking to all the time, and then one day he called me up he said, yeah, we lost him, and so that morning I think I got a security detail. And I remember meeting with my daughter the night before. We were having dinner and I said she was little at the time, and I said to her, just so you know, tomorrow we're going to have some other people with us when we go take you to school, and she immediately started crying. So she knew that it was an unusual time.

More of math and magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with Andrew Dureki. Let's go back in time. I want to explore your origins. You were a kid of the sixties, seventies, and I guess early eighties. Tell me about your family and describe how that moment in time that fan shaped you.

More of math and magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with Andrew Dureki. Let's go back in time. I want to explore your origins. You were a kid of the sixties, seventies, and I guess early eighties. Tell me about your family and describe how that moment in time that fan shaped you.

We went from when I was little living in New Haven, when my dad was at Yale and my mom was She was a writer and eventually became a writer of Time magazine. And the two of them were very important influences because my dad was very scientific and methodical and became even more so in a way when he went into business, because he's very numerous and so to some extent, my dad was the math and my mom was the magic. And I think that I always listened to both of them, and I always had both of those voices in my ear. And then we moved to New York because my dad was starting a business. It was going to grow to be a big business. My mom was a big influence. And I think my mom, because she had actually had been a film critic at Time magazine. My mom thought about films, and she showed me films and we talked about artistic things. My dad does not read fiction, doesn't get it, doesn't understand why people read fiction. But those two pieces I think were very important in giving me permission to be interested in both to be okay with math and to understand the benefit of business, but also to listen to my artistics side.

We went from when I was little living in New Haven, when my dad was at Yale and my mom was She was a writer and eventually became a writer of Time magazine. And the two of them were very important influences because my dad was very scientific and methodical and became even more so in a way when he went into business, because he's very numerous and so to some extent, my dad was the math and my mom was the magic. And I think that I always listened to both of them, and I always had both of those voices in my ear. And then we moved to New York because my dad was starting a business. It was going to grow to be a big business. My mom was a big influence. And I think my mom, because she had actually had been a film critic at Time magazine. My mom thought about films, and she showed me films and we talked about artistic things. My dad does not read fiction, doesn't get it, doesn't understand why people read fiction. But those two pieces I think were very important in giving me permission to be interested in both to be okay with math and to understand the benefit of business, but also to listen to my artistics side.

What did you learn in childhood that you still use today?

What did you learn in childhood that you still use today?

I mean, one thing is that you know my dad was tough and not always predictable, and he was in that those early years, very mercurial. You never quite knew what you were going to get out of him. My dad was a genius. When he was in Germany as a child, they used to test out the IQ tests on him and he scored a two hundred and six, and so I was. When I was a kid. We would sit at the dinner table with him and say, okay, Dad, fifteen six hundred and forty seven divided by one hundred and forty two nine hundred and thirty, and he would get like a dope look on his face and he would say five boy and six nine seven three, And I thought, Okay, well that's what I got here. I got a brilliant guy who's not always going to be predictable. I got good at dealing with complicated personalities. And Bob Durst is an example of one. Billy Billy is an example of one. It's something that kind of became a little bit of a superpower.

I mean, one thing is that you know my dad was tough and not always predictable, and he was in that those early years, very mercurial. You never quite knew what you were going to get out of him. My dad was a genius. When he was in Germany as a child, they used to test out the IQ tests on him and he scored a two hundred and six, and so I was. When I was a kid. We would sit at the dinner table with him and say, okay, Dad, fifteen six hundred and forty seven divided by one hundred and forty two nine hundred and thirty, and he would get like a dope look on his face and he would say five boy and six nine seven three, And I thought, Okay, well that's what I got here. I got a brilliant guy who's not always going to be predictable. I got good at dealing with complicated personalities. And Bob Durst is an example of one. Billy Billy is an example of one. It's something that kind of became a little bit of a superpower.

You went to Princeton. When you were there, you directed theater, right, you were clearly going on a path. Why did you veer off in the business after college? Whant I continue that with creative bent?

You went to Princeton. When you were there, you directed theater, right, you were clearly going on a path. Why did you veer off in the business after college? Whant I continue that with creative bent?

When I was in college, I had been doing a lot of theater stuff. I had been reading a lot of theater. I pursued it intellectually, but also directed plays and produced plays. And interestingly, my senior thesis production, which was a production of a play called Ubu, not only had I done this sort of whole artistic thing, but I decided that I wanted to do a marketing campaign for it that would be like for a movie. And so I had everybody on campus wearing these little buttons that said Ubu. Nobody knew what it was, and we ended up having sold out run for the entire run. And that never happens.

When I was in college, I had been doing a lot of theater stuff. I had been reading a lot of theater. I pursued it intellectually, but also directed plays and produced plays. And interestingly, my senior thesis production, which was a production of a play called Ubu, not only had I done this sort of whole artistic thing, but I decided that I wanted to do a marketing campaign for it that would be like for a movie. And so I had everybody on campus wearing these little buttons that said Ubu. Nobody knew what it was, and we ended up having sold out run for the entire run. And that never happens.

You know.

You know.

So my dad saw that happening, and I had a professor at Princeton who said, I want you to go to Yale Drama School for directing, because that's going to be your thing. And I said that to my dad, and I think he decided he was going to lobby against it. And we had dinner together and he said, listen, we have this big business. It's an incredible learning experience. I get that you want to do the artistic thing, but I want you to come into business for a year or two. Once you learned what a treasury bill is, and once you understand something about how you talk to a lawyer, then even if you decide to be an artist, you're not going to get screwed like all the other artists, you know. And it was a pretty compelling argument. He was selling the biggest of his businesses at that time. There was a guy that was running it who was brilliant, and he said, come work for George and you don't have to deal with me at all, but this guy's going to take you to business school. I put the artistic stuff on hold, really because my dad thought it was a good idea, and I thought I would listen to him. As it turned out, I think it really was an enormously important choice because I was able to go back to artistic work after that, but with a completely different set of tools.

So my dad saw that happening, and I had a professor at Princeton who said, I want you to go to Yale Drama School for directing, because that's going to be your thing. And I said that to my dad, and I think he decided he was going to lobby against it. And we had dinner together and he said, listen, we have this big business. It's an incredible learning experience. I get that you want to do the artistic thing, but I want you to come into business for a year or two. Once you learned what a treasury bill is, and once you understand something about how you talk to a lawyer, then even if you decide to be an artist, you're not going to get screwed like all the other artists, you know. And it was a pretty compelling argument. He was selling the biggest of his businesses at that time. There was a guy that was running it who was brilliant, and he said, come work for George and you don't have to deal with me at all, but this guy's going to take you to business school. I put the artistic stuff on hold, really because my dad thought it was a good idea, and I thought I would listen to him. As it turned out, I think it really was an enormously important choice because I was able to go back to artistic work after that, but with a completely different set of tools.

At one point in your life, you just picked up and moved to Rome for a while kids everything. What was that about?

At one point in your life, you just picked up and moved to Rome for a while kids everything. What was that about?

You know, I had sold the business. Thanks to you, I was able to go do something completely different. And I remember thinking, you know, my kids go to private school in Manhattan, and Nancy and I were thinking, like, we got to get him out of here and just get him into a place where they're going to have a new language and a new frame of reference. And so we moved to Rome originally for a year, and you said to me, don't move for two years, And I said why not? And you said, well, one year is great, but two years people stop inviting.

You know, I had sold the business. Thanks to you, I was able to go do something completely different. And I remember thinking, you know, my kids go to private school in Manhattan, and Nancy and I were thinking, like, we got to get him out of here and just get him into a place where they're going to have a new language and a new frame of reference. And so we moved to Rome originally for a year, and you said to me, don't move for two years, And I said why not? And you said, well, one year is great, but two years people stop inviting.

You to things.

You to things.

You're off the radar. And I remember thinking like, he might be right, but let me see how I feel after a year, And we ended up saying for two years. But it changed a lot of things in my brain. I forced myself to really learn Italian because I wanted to see the world for a period of time from a different perspective. It was hugely helpful. It's the smartest thing we ever did, was just to mix it up like that and to get into a community where we had never met anybody before, an apartment that we had never lived in before, a city that we didn't know it was really powerful.

You're off the radar. And I remember thinking like, he might be right, but let me see how I feel after a year, And we ended up saying for two years. But it changed a lot of things in my brain. I forced myself to really learn Italian because I wanted to see the world for a period of time from a different perspective. It was hugely helpful. It's the smartest thing we ever did, was just to mix it up like that and to get into a community where we had never met anybody before, an apartment that we had never lived in before, a city that we didn't know it was really powerful.

Let's hit some topics the creative process. How do you take an idea and to turn it into something tangible, whether that's a business, a movie, or a TV show.

Let's hit some topics the creative process. How do you take an idea and to turn it into something tangible, whether that's a business, a movie, or a TV show.

I think the most important thing is that you don't know where anything's going. So I always say, like, you can't see the inside of the house from the front lawn. You have to get into the foyer in order to peek in and see the dining room and the living room. So you got to do something first. You got to go try something. If I want to make a movie about birthday party clowns, I got to go around myself and pick up parenting magazines and go look in the back and see where the magician ads are. There's no version of it where you can just imagine your way into it. So I think that's such important thing. With movie phones, starting by putting up a phone service and seeing whether anybody would call it, and just telling hundreds of people instead of millions of people and seeing whether it picked up. So the working model being able to get something on its feet that I think is really important. Just getting your feet wet and feeling okay about not knowing where it's going, not getting panicky about that, just saying yeah, I don't know. I'm writing this essay. I don't know what the end is going to be. Just going to keep chiseling away at it.

I think the most important thing is that you don't know where anything's going. So I always say, like, you can't see the inside of the house from the front lawn. You have to get into the foyer in order to peek in and see the dining room and the living room. So you got to do something first. You got to go try something. If I want to make a movie about birthday party clowns, I got to go around myself and pick up parenting magazines and go look in the back and see where the magician ads are. There's no version of it where you can just imagine your way into it. So I think that's such important thing. With movie phones, starting by putting up a phone service and seeing whether anybody would call it, and just telling hundreds of people instead of millions of people and seeing whether it picked up. So the working model being able to get something on its feet that I think is really important. Just getting your feet wet and feeling okay about not knowing where it's going, not getting panicky about that, just saying yeah, I don't know. I'm writing this essay. I don't know what the end is going to be. Just going to keep chiseling away at it.

Corporate culture, you built one of movie phone and I suspect on all of your movies TV shows you also have a culture of that group. What does the culture do for you? How do you build it? How do you use it?

Corporate culture, you built one of movie phone and I suspect on all of your movies TV shows you also have a culture of that group. What does the culture do for you? How do you build it? How do you use it?

I always say in the very beginning, something in the first group meeting or whatever that lets people know two things. One is I have an idea of where we're going, but I don't know where we're going. And the reason I'm hiring the best people, and you guys are all distinguished, incredible, talented people, is because I really want to hear from you. I would say ten percent of the people take that seriously. Ninety percent of the people still sit quietly meeting after meeting, and it's always an effort to figure out who are the ten exers, the people we used to talk about at AOL. Who are the people that are just head and shoulders, bigger contributors and nurture those people. You go in that first meeting and you want everybody to contribute, and pretty quickly you realize a lot of people are just too shy to do it. And every once in a while you get a really shy person who's all so brilliant, and that person, if you can access them, that's a lunch that you want to keep having or whatever. A big part of it is just figuring out where is the talent, Where are the people that are going to bring you these ideas that are going to make your thing work because you're not going to be able to do it on your own.

I always say in the very beginning, something in the first group meeting or whatever that lets people know two things. One is I have an idea of where we're going, but I don't know where we're going. And the reason I'm hiring the best people, and you guys are all distinguished, incredible, talented people, is because I really want to hear from you. I would say ten percent of the people take that seriously. Ninety percent of the people still sit quietly meeting after meeting, and it's always an effort to figure out who are the ten exers, the people we used to talk about at AOL. Who are the people that are just head and shoulders, bigger contributors and nurture those people. You go in that first meeting and you want everybody to contribute, and pretty quickly you realize a lot of people are just too shy to do it. And every once in a while you get a really shy person who's all so brilliant, and that person, if you can access them, that's a lunch that you want to keep having or whatever. A big part of it is just figuring out where is the talent, Where are the people that are going to bring you these ideas that are going to make your thing work because you're not going to be able to do it on your own.

We couldn't have a conversation without mentioning two letters AI. What's it going to do to the movie and TV business and making the product?

We couldn't have a conversation without mentioning two letters AI. What's it going to do to the movie and TV business and making the product?

I'll tell you what I'm seeing right now, and it's fascinating is we're using AI every day in making a documentary. We're making the Part two of the Jinx right now, and it's an enormous production and hundreds of subjects that are being interviewed I would never use AI in a finished film. I would never say, Oh, Bob Pittman just did an interview and I made him say something he didn't say. Obviously, that would be a total breach of everything. But if I do a three hour interview with you and you say everything except for the one remark I need you to say to conclude your thing, I can take your voice and make you say it, and then when I'm watching the rough cut, there you are and you're saying it. If I want to use it, I will come back to you and I'll say, hey, is this something that you feel comfortable saying? Or say it in your own words. So right now they're AI lines that are going into that film that will never make it into the final film. But the fact that I can have them in the rough cut means I can move much faster in making the film. That's the big ethical consideration. There's no question that there's a filmmaker sitting there right now who's saying, well, I wish I could get Donald Trump to say this thing, or I wish I could get Joe Biden to say this thing, and they probably use it. Right we're seeing that already, we're seeing deep fakes, and we're seeing people saying things that they didn't say. So that's the line is how do you make sure that you're doing it ethically, but that you're using it for the incredible acceleration that it lets you get.

I'll tell you what I'm seeing right now, and it's fascinating is we're using AI every day in making a documentary. We're making the Part two of the Jinx right now, and it's an enormous production and hundreds of subjects that are being interviewed I would never use AI in a finished film. I would never say, Oh, Bob Pittman just did an interview and I made him say something he didn't say. Obviously, that would be a total breach of everything. But if I do a three hour interview with you and you say everything except for the one remark I need you to say to conclude your thing, I can take your voice and make you say it, and then when I'm watching the rough cut, there you are and you're saying it. If I want to use it, I will come back to you and I'll say, hey, is this something that you feel comfortable saying? Or say it in your own words. So right now they're AI lines that are going into that film that will never make it into the final film. But the fact that I can have them in the rough cut means I can move much faster in making the film. That's the big ethical consideration. There's no question that there's a filmmaker sitting there right now who's saying, well, I wish I could get Donald Trump to say this thing, or I wish I could get Joe Biden to say this thing, and they probably use it. Right we're seeing that already, we're seeing deep fakes, and we're seeing people saying things that they didn't say. So that's the line is how do you make sure that you're doing it ethically, but that you're using it for the incredible acceleration that it lets you get.

Let's go to some advice for someone who dreams of being a filmmaker. What advice can you give them?

Let's go to some advice for someone who dreams of being a filmmaker. What advice can you give them?

I would say, especially today, the technology is no longer an impediment. Right Nolden days used to have to say, well, I'm going to have to buy this camera, and I have to buy some film, and I need nine people to do it. You don't really need that. There's there's stuff in the jinks in this next season that's coming out that was shot on this iPhone, and you can't shoot a whole movie in an extremely cheap way, but you can do a lot of experimentation and you can figure out whether you have something or not. So I would say, same thing. Get your feet wet. You know, you got to just go and try the first thing. You may get it wrong, you may throw it in the trash, but you're going to learn something.

I would say, especially today, the technology is no longer an impediment. Right Nolden days used to have to say, well, I'm going to have to buy this camera, and I have to buy some film, and I need nine people to do it. You don't really need that. There's there's stuff in the jinks in this next season that's coming out that was shot on this iPhone, and you can't shoot a whole movie in an extremely cheap way, but you can do a lot of experimentation and you can figure out whether you have something or not. So I would say, same thing. Get your feet wet. You know, you got to just go and try the first thing. You may get it wrong, you may throw it in the trash, but you're going to learn something.

So for the major studios, you're on the front lines. You always spend a lot of time on the cutting edge. What's new? What advice can you give them from that perspective?

So for the major studios, you're on the front lines. You always spend a lot of time on the cutting edge. What's new? What advice can you give them from that perspective?

Oh, it's so hard, right, because they make such enormous mistakes all the time. They always have. They're trying to do the best they can. My friend was telling me the story of you know, Titanic was it Fox? And it was this like incredible investment. There were two hundred million dollars into it. Nobody had ever made a film like that before, and Rupert or whoever said, well, we got to lay this thing off. This is going to be a disaster. It's probably going to go down like the Titanic. They sell fifty percent of it, and then of course the movie makes a billion dollars and everybody is like, who's getting fired for this terribly stupid decision. So whenever they're big bets like that, it's incredibly hard to predict anything. I'm amazed that they do it and keep their jobs. The thing I guess I would say is they got to hire a lot of kids that got to surround themselves with people that are younger than studio executives, just because that's where the ideas are. You want to welcome those people. You don't want to make it hard for them to climb up the ranks.

Oh, it's so hard, right, because they make such enormous mistakes all the time. They always have. They're trying to do the best they can. My friend was telling me the story of you know, Titanic was it Fox? And it was this like incredible investment. There were two hundred million dollars into it. Nobody had ever made a film like that before, and Rupert or whoever said, well, we got to lay this thing off. This is going to be a disaster. It's probably going to go down like the Titanic. They sell fifty percent of it, and then of course the movie makes a billion dollars and everybody is like, who's getting fired for this terribly stupid decision. So whenever they're big bets like that, it's incredibly hard to predict anything. I'm amazed that they do it and keep their jobs. The thing I guess I would say is they got to hire a lot of kids that got to surround themselves with people that are younger than studio executives, just because that's where the ideas are. You want to welcome those people. You don't want to make it hard for them to climb up the ranks.

So if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your twenty one year old self.

So if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your twenty one year old self.

Ah, I think I was hard on myself. I think I was beating myself with a big switch all the time. And I think you know that you give your a lot of scars by doing that. But it's not easy to have a successful business, and you sort of feel like you have to be your own task master. Everything seems urgent, everything's so critical. Could have thought differently about it at twenty one, I don't know, but I guess I would say, you know, I maybe be nicer to me.

Ah, I think I was hard on myself. I think I was beating myself with a big switch all the time. And I think you know that you give your a lot of scars by doing that. But it's not easy to have a successful business, and you sort of feel like you have to be your own task master. Everything seems urgent, everything's so critical. Could have thought differently about it at twenty one, I don't know, but I guess I would say, you know, I maybe be nicer to me.

So we end each episode of Mathemagic with a shout out to the best on both ends of the spectrum of business and marketing. The best at the analytics, science and math, your dad, the best at sheer, creative promotions, etc. Who gets your shout out for.

So we end each episode of Mathemagic with a shout out to the best on both ends of the spectrum of business and marketing. The best at the analytics, science and math, your dad, the best at sheer, creative promotions, etc. Who gets your shout out for.

Each The thing I think is so special about my dad is that on the business side is that he really has no orthodoxy. If you walk in and you say, you know, we should buy this company because blah blah blah blah blah, he'll say, what if we just sold the company like he just flips it all the time. On the marketing side, I think it's the improvisational people. There's a guy that I love, a guy named Deacon Webster, who was the head of creative at an advertising agency called Mad Dogs and Englishmen. He still runs his own agency in New York, and whenever I'm needing to figure out how to make something cool or how to get it in front of more people, I usually just call him up and I try to have lunch with him, and He's worked on a lot of stuff with me, so I like his ability to just think freely. Certainly on the marketing side, that's so important because freshness is everything, you know. It's so important for somebody to see something that is not predictable, and I think it draws people in. So those creative people that are willing to think outside the box are really precious.

Each The thing I think is so special about my dad is that on the business side is that he really has no orthodoxy. If you walk in and you say, you know, we should buy this company because blah blah blah blah blah, he'll say, what if we just sold the company like he just flips it all the time. On the marketing side, I think it's the improvisational people. There's a guy that I love, a guy named Deacon Webster, who was the head of creative at an advertising agency called Mad Dogs and Englishmen. He still runs his own agency in New York, and whenever I'm needing to figure out how to make something cool or how to get it in front of more people, I usually just call him up and I try to have lunch with him, and He's worked on a lot of stuff with me, so I like his ability to just think freely. Certainly on the marketing side, that's so important because freshness is everything, you know. It's so important for somebody to see something that is not predictable, and I think it draws people in. So those creative people that are willing to think outside the box are really precious.

Andrew, you have always been one of the most curious people I know. You're blessed with being, as we see today, a fascinating storyteller as well. You've managed to put both of those together, have a wonderfully successful business life, two smallest personal life. Thanks for sharing your stories and insights today about how you did it and what you learned. Here are a few things I've picked up from my conversation with Andrew. One plan on pivoting. As Andrew says, you can't see the inside of the house from the front lawn. Starting a project with an open mind and allowing it to evolve can ensure you end up with the best possible outcome. Two. Sometimes collaboration beats competition. Instead of trying to beat out another company with the same model as moviefone, they combined efforts for a huge payoff. Andrew's documentary work tells a similar story. Close relationships with his subjects have made his work all that more compelling. Collaboration can take on many forms, and you may wind up working with someone you'd never expected to and the rewards may be bigger than you ever anticipated too. Three. Embrace changing technology. Andrew may not use use AI in the final cut of his films, but that doesn't mean it's not an asset during production. AI can be used to accelerate projects and make workflow more seamless. Leaning into innovative tech doesn't have to mean compromising the integrity of your work, or even turning it upside down. Embracing new tools for innovation can allow you to do the work you excel at, just more efficiently. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening.