You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Me. Are out loud? What women are actually talking about? On Wednesday, the twenty third of October, I am Holly Wainwright.

You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Me. Are out loud? What women are actually talking about? On Wednesday, the twenty third of October, I am Holly Wainwright.

I am Jesse Stevens, and I'm and Vernon filling in for me today. You might have heard me on our daily entertainment podcast The Spill.

I am Jesse Stevens, and I'm and Vernon filling in for me today. You might have heard me on our daily entertainment podcast The Spill.

On the show today Britney Spears's latest wedding and the rise of sologamy. Don't know what that is? That's fine, we'll explain. Also, has the US exported its abortion politics all the way to Australia this week? It seems yes? And why women clean? The answer apparently is much more complicated than well, someone has to. But first, Jesse Stevens.

On the show today Britney Spears's latest wedding and the rise of sologamy. Don't know what that is? That's fine, we'll explain. Also, has the US exported its abortion politics all the way to Australia this week? It seems yes? And why women clean? The answer apparently is much more complicated than well, someone has to. But first, Jesse Stevens.

In case you missed it, you have to change your passwords. Holly, I'm mostly probably talking to you.

In case you missed it, you have to change your passwords. Holly, I'm mostly probably talking to you.

You are very much talking to me.

You are very much talking to me.

You just see you got to change your password. A cybersecurity expert who investigates criminal hacking methods named Joe Cockroft says he knows your password is probably password or one two, three, four, five, six, and you're gonna get hacked. Even worse, you probably have the same password across multiple platforms, meaning a hacker could access your bank account, your eCloud, and all your social media platforms.

You just see you got to change your password. A cybersecurity expert who investigates criminal hacking methods named Joe Cockroft says he knows your password is probably password or one two, three, four, five, six, and you're gonna get hacked. Even worse, you probably have the same password across multiple platforms, meaning a hacker could access your bank account, your eCloud, and all your social media platforms.

Oh, that's none of my business.

Oh, that's none of my business.

You do, you hacker.

You do, you hacker.

Apparently hackers have a list of thousands of words that they think are probably your password, and they can glean it from social media, like your pet's name, your phone number, or the sporting team you support.

Apparently hackers have a list of thousands of words that they think are probably your password, and they can glean it from social media, like your pet's name, your phone number, or the sporting team you support.

So so scared you're going to say one of my actual pastor because this is tricky this segment, because we obviously need to react towards Jesse's saying without actually giving away our password.

So so scared you're going to say one of my actual pastor because this is tricky this segment, because we obviously need to react towards Jesse's saying without actually giving away our password.

Shop you have to go what people have password one two three.

Shop you have to go what people have password one two three.

People use their pets name.

People use their pets name.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness.

So this was UK based and what they had was password quirty, which is just the first line of your keyboard ABC one two three. Very popular and football team so Liverpool or Arsenal. What was interesting here is they've not even tried to do an exclamation mark. It's just a Liverpool. But in Australia, some of the most common passwords include Michael or Charlie.

So this was UK based and what they had was password quirty, which is just the first line of your keyboard ABC one two three. Very popular and football team so Liverpool or Arsenal. What was interesting here is they've not even tried to do an exclamation mark. It's just a Liverpool. But in Australia, some of the most common passwords include Michael or Charlie.

If you want to.

If you want to.

Know Michaels and Charlie's everywhere few.

Know Michaels and Charlie's everywhere few.

The big dumb dumbs.

The big dumb dumbs.

If you know, Michael, just go mate, get it a little more more creative.

If you know, Michael, just go mate, get it a little more more creative.

Or Star Wars twenty nine.

Or Star Wars twenty nine.

Oh my god, that would be Brent. No, you just give me inspiration of how to hack into alve Brett's private accounts.

Oh my god, that would be Brent. No, you just give me inspiration of how to hack into alve Brett's private accounts.

So we surveyed the out louders about how often they change their password, and you're fine, It's interesting the people who just are changing their password because they know that it's an important security thing. One percent, sixty nine percent of people are changing their password, but only because they forgot the password that they did before.

So we surveyed the out louders about how often they change their password, and you're fine, It's interesting the people who just are changing their password because they know that it's an important security thing. One percent, sixty nine percent of people are changing their password, but only because they forgot the password that they did before.

With all the exclamations, you know.

With all the exclamations, you know.

How that one percent would have been who Luke Levine?

How that one percent would have been who Luke Levine?

That is Luca going, oh yes, I said a weekly reminder that I should change all my passwords because apparently what you're meant to do is either have a password manager which saves them all, which I'm like, can't that be hacked?

That is Luca going, oh yes, I said a weekly reminder that I should change all my passwords because apparently what you're meant to do is either have a password manager which saves them all, which I'm like, can't that be hacked?

But I don't know enough.

But I don't know enough.

The IT guy right now is screaming at me being like, Noah can't. And the other thing is do the verification where you get your pass code sent to your phone. That's the other thing you're meant to do. The longer the better, apparently, and symbols and numbers and all that kind of stuff, But don't we.

The IT guy right now is screaming at me being like, Noah can't. And the other thing is do the verification where you get your pass code sent to your phone. That's the other thing you're meant to do. The longer the better, apparently, and symbols and numbers and all that kind of stuff, But don't we.

Just do that?

Just do that?

And then we go to my GUV the next time and my GUV says, what's your password?

And then we go to my GUV the next time and my GUV says, what's your password?

And you're like, no, one, no, fucking I don't understand.

And you're like, no, one, no, fucking I don't understand.

It's like, sure if you use a password manager, but I find that confusing because you have to remember the password to your password manager.

It's like, sure if you use a password manager, but I find that confusing because you have to remember the password to your password manager.

But also how are the people who.

But also how are the people who.

Are changing their passwords every week remembering?

Are changing their passwords every week remembering?

Because then I try and change my password, but then I write it in my notes, SAP, and I feel like that's not good security.

Because then I try and change my password, but then I write it in my notes, SAP, and I feel like that's not good security.

No no, And then you sometimes try and get really smart and try and disguise what it is. Instead of bank you might say, like Shank, what.

No no, And then you sometimes try and get really smart and try and disguise what it is. Instead of bank you might say, like Shank, what.

I hate is when you forget your password and you tell the computer whatever you're trying to log into thing forgot my passwords, and I like, reset the past. I'm like, okay, reset the password, and they're like, you can't use an old password?

I hate is when you forget your password and you tell the computer whatever you're trying to log into thing forgot my passwords, and I like, reset the past. I'm like, okay, reset the password, and they're like, you can't use an old password?

What do you mean you told me I forgot?

What do you mean you told me I forgot?

This part is I know this is all very important, you know, security, but do you remember when Amelia Lester told you the other week that there was just a slow was it called the shitification of sperification?

This part is I know this is all very important, you know, security, but do you remember when Amelia Lester told you the other week that there was just a slow was it called the shitification of sperification?

I keep I from saying it everywhere.

I keep I from saying it everywhere.

Like internet security is part of that because like constantly having to be I had to do this yesterday there was a specific streaming service I wanted to watch a show on, couldn't remember my passwords, wasn't letting me in. Called Brent. He was at home, He couldn't remember what. I just started a whole new account from like and then I'm like, at some point I'll sort out the pavements for that, but like, I'm just starting again. Scorched it, Let's go. It's the stification of everything because I spent half my life going forgot password.

Like internet security is part of that because like constantly having to be I had to do this yesterday there was a specific streaming service I wanted to watch a show on, couldn't remember my passwords, wasn't letting me in. Called Brent. He was at home, He couldn't remember what. I just started a whole new account from like and then I'm like, at some point I'll sort out the pavements for that, but like, I'm just starting again. Scorched it, Let's go. It's the stification of everything because I spent half my life going forgot password.

There's already an account link to this email.

There's already an account link to this email.

Well, I don't know where that is. Let's start a new email for your cat. That'll take me ten minutes.

Well, I don't know where that is. Let's start a new email for your cat. That'll take me ten minutes.

Britney Spears has posted a video of herself to Instagram. She's wearing a wedding dress with a whole veil in everything, and she's doing some cutesy poses for the camera. The caption of this post reads the Day I married myself. Bringing it back because it might seem embarrassing or stupid, but I think it's the most brilliant thing I've ever done.

Britney Spears has posted a video of herself to Instagram. She's wearing a wedding dress with a whole veil in everything, and she's doing some cutesy poses for the camera. The caption of this post reads the Day I married myself. Bringing it back because it might seem embarrassing or stupid, but I think it's the most brilliant thing I've ever done.

Oh Britney.

Oh Britney.

So it's unclear whether or not she's actually married herself, but it is a thing. Marrying yourself is a thing. It's called sologamy, and it's the idea that you marry yourself to live a fulfilling life as a sologamist. So there are actual people who've done this. A PR consultant named Sophie Tanner has done this, and she said that it's a way of her showing that she loves herself and celebrating herself the same way that married people can celebrate themselves. So it's like the ceremony around it. It's not technically legal, which means you can have fun with it and do whatever you want. But it's a way of your family and friends recognizing yourself and the love that you have for yourself as a single person. This is the worst time of year to find out about slogamy. Why do you remember? I think it was a few weeks ago. The two of you and me are talked about cuffing season, yes, and how everyone's kind of coupling up now during their like no one is more aware of cuffing season than the single person. I see it everywhere, and it's always October. October is the time of year where everyone who's single ends up in a situationship because everyone's thinking about it's the end of year. I'm gonna have to see family, I'm gonna go have to visit people. My family's gonna ask me, are you seeing anyone? You have to say yes so they get off your back. So you end up being in a situationship. Then you have those like in between days where you're like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing between Christmas and New Years, And then you have New Years and you're like, actually, I don't want this relationship, so I feel like it's a new year, and you me, I need to start fresh.

So it's unclear whether or not she's actually married herself, but it is a thing. Marrying yourself is a thing. It's called sologamy, and it's the idea that you marry yourself to live a fulfilling life as a sologamist. So there are actual people who've done this. A PR consultant named Sophie Tanner has done this, and she said that it's a way of her showing that she loves herself and celebrating herself the same way that married people can celebrate themselves. So it's like the ceremony around it. It's not technically legal, which means you can have fun with it and do whatever you want. But it's a way of your family and friends recognizing yourself and the love that you have for yourself as a single person. This is the worst time of year to find out about slogamy. Why do you remember? I think it was a few weeks ago. The two of you and me are talked about cuffing season, yes, and how everyone's kind of coupling up now during their like no one is more aware of cuffing season than the single person. I see it everywhere, and it's always October. October is the time of year where everyone who's single ends up in a situationship because everyone's thinking about it's the end of year. I'm gonna have to see family, I'm gonna go have to visit people. My family's gonna ask me, are you seeing anyone? You have to say yes so they get off your back. So you end up being in a situationship. Then you have those like in between days where you're like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing between Christmas and New Years, And then you have New Years and you're like, actually, I don't want this relationship, so I feel like it's a new year, and you me, I need to start fresh.

You've spent too much time in there.

You've spent too much time in there.

And then you haven't seen them in a month because you're with family, and then it's nearly like the end of jam. But you can't move into February because it's Valentine's Day. You can't break up with someone before Valentine's Day, complex so you break up on the thirty first of January after getting together in October.

And then you haven't seen them in a month because you're with family, and then it's nearly like the end of jam. But you can't move into February because it's Valentine's Day. You can't break up with someone before Valentine's Day, complex so you break up on the thirty first of January after getting together in October.

You do so I mean, this feels quite nihilistic, which makes me wonder, are you thinking of just going full slogamists.

You do so I mean, this feels quite nihilistic, which makes me wonder, are you thinking of just going full slogamists.

And turning up to family events? I come, I married myself?

And turning up to family events? I come, I married myself?

Oh yeah, because like, how else will I get a wedding gift? Like, how are you getting wedding gifts?

Oh yeah, because like, how else will I get a wedding gift? Like, how are you getting wedding gifts?

Holly?

Holly?

Look, I'm not And this is one of the things I want to write an angry letter to somebody there. So I went deep on the slogamists and the marrying yourself thing because I think it's easy to kind of mock it a little bit and laugh at it, because there are actually loads of people who've done this. There are loads of people who've done it. The first person who did it that we know about is a woman called Linda Baker in America. It in nineteen ninety three, right, and since then it's become a bit of a thing and women, it's always women apparently are doing it as an act of self love. But also and I love the refreshing honesty in this. There was a woman who was India's first sologamist bride, saying she always wanted to be a bride, but not a wife or Holly English the Australian woman who did it a few years ago, who said she'd always wanted a wedding. She said, I've now accepted I might never find a partner, and I'm happy, but I always wanted a wedding, right, And why should weddings and the party, in the gifts and the dress and that all everyone comes together only be for the coupled up. So there's that reason to do it right. That can feel a little bit passag like that famous Sex and the City episode where she's like, where are my baby shower gifts? Where are my engagement presents? Somebody should buy me a pair of shoes. So that feels a bit passag But I also think on a more sort of positive note, it speaks to the fact that as women have got more choice than ever about how they live, we still have very few ways to celebrate women who aren't following the normal script, which is like get engaged, get married, then have a baby, then da da da da, and have all these like milestones that we accept are things to celebrate. We haven't yet figured out how we celebrate women who aren't following that path, And so I reckon that this is a great thing.

Look, I'm not And this is one of the things I want to write an angry letter to somebody there. So I went deep on the slogamists and the marrying yourself thing because I think it's easy to kind of mock it a little bit and laugh at it, because there are actually loads of people who've done this. There are loads of people who've done it. The first person who did it that we know about is a woman called Linda Baker in America. It in nineteen ninety three, right, and since then it's become a bit of a thing and women, it's always women apparently are doing it as an act of self love. But also and I love the refreshing honesty in this. There was a woman who was India's first sologamist bride, saying she always wanted to be a bride, but not a wife or Holly English the Australian woman who did it a few years ago, who said she'd always wanted a wedding. She said, I've now accepted I might never find a partner, and I'm happy, but I always wanted a wedding, right, And why should weddings and the party, in the gifts and the dress and that all everyone comes together only be for the coupled up. So there's that reason to do it right. That can feel a little bit passag like that famous Sex and the City episode where she's like, where are my baby shower gifts? Where are my engagement presents? Somebody should buy me a pair of shoes. So that feels a bit passag But I also think on a more sort of positive note, it speaks to the fact that as women have got more choice than ever about how they live, we still have very few ways to celebrate women who aren't following the normal script, which is like get engaged, get married, then have a baby, then da da da da, and have all these like milestones that we accept are things to celebrate. We haven't yet figured out how we celebrate women who aren't following that path, And so I reckon that this is a great thing.

I totally respect that reading, and I can see how even for Britney Spears, it could be healing. She's clearly had some experiences in the past with marriages that haven't worked, and it could be seen as sort of a radical feminist act. And I see that with a few of the examples. But another part of me worries that this is belonging to a bit of a shift where we're kidding ourselves into thinking we don't need anyone like and I don't mean romantically, I just mean broadly.

I totally respect that reading, and I can see how even for Britney Spears, it could be healing. She's clearly had some experiences in the past with marriages that haven't worked, and it could be seen as sort of a radical feminist act. And I see that with a few of the examples. But another part of me worries that this is belonging to a bit of a shift where we're kidding ourselves into thinking we don't need anyone like and I don't mean romantically, I just mean broadly.

So with the.

So with the.

Rise of introversion and toxicity and boundaries and therapy speek and a lot of people are living alone, I worry that we're deluding ourselves into thinking we can live as islands when that isn't good for us.

Rise of introversion and toxicity and boundaries and therapy speek and a lot of people are living alone, I worry that we're deluding ourselves into thinking we can live as islands when that isn't good for us.

But this is just a wedding, and a wedding is actually an act of connection, right, Like you invite people, then they're all there. That's one of things everyone loves about weddings, right is they're like, all my people are here, all my friends, my family, and I'm connecting and celebrating. Right, Yes, So that argument that you're putting forward is about singled and broadly.

But this is just a wedding, and a wedding is actually an act of connection, right, Like you invite people, then they're all there. That's one of things everyone loves about weddings, right is they're like, all my people are here, all my friends, my family, and I'm connecting and celebrating. Right, Yes, So that argument that you're putting forward is about singled and broadly.

Right, it's not even about singleedom because I think that you can be highly connected and single, yeah, and I think you can be very lonely and coupled yeap. But there's this kind of go girl feminism thing or it's disguised as feminism that I see online, which is sort of like, you don't need anyone self love, isn't it.

Right, it's not even about singleedom because I think that you can be highly connected and single, yeah, and I think you can be very lonely and coupled yeap. But there's this kind of go girl feminism thing or it's disguised as feminism that I see online, which is sort of like, you don't need anyone self love, isn't it.

More, you don't need a partner, you don't need a romantic partner because to be honest with that one in sound like Debbie Downer and this like marriage hasn't always been great for lots of women, nor hasn't. So the freedom to be able to opt out of that and say, maybe I'm not going to marry, maybe I'm never gonna be partnered, maybe I'm going to live my life on my terms. It doesn't mean that that person is going to be lonely disconnected. That's not what it means.

More, you don't need a partner, you don't need a romantic partner because to be honest with that one in sound like Debbie Downer and this like marriage hasn't always been great for lots of women, nor hasn't. So the freedom to be able to opt out of that and say, maybe I'm not going to marry, maybe I'm never gonna be partnered, maybe I'm going to live my life on my terms. It doesn't mean that that person is going to be lonely disconnected. That's not what it means.

Something about and look, the whole marriage industry, wedding industry is something that you know, we've criticized a lot on this show, and I completely agree with all of it. But there's something about the connection of two people and the connection of two families that I feel like weddings or marriages are about and I think I bristle whenever the self love thing comes up. There's something because I feel like there's something narcissistic about it. I feel as though you can love oneself too much. But don't you think, Jesse, that we worship oneself too much?

Something about and look, the whole marriage industry, wedding industry is something that you know, we've criticized a lot on this show, and I completely agree with all of it. But there's something about the connection of two people and the connection of two families that I feel like weddings or marriages are about and I think I bristle whenever the self love thing comes up. There's something because I feel like there's something narcissistic about it. I feel as though you can love oneself too much. But don't you think, Jesse, that we worship oneself too much?

But don't you think, Jesse, that we're always telling people that self love is the most important thing for their mental health and their stability. And yet at the same time, we tell people, women in particular, that they are incomplete unless they have a partner. Right, That's the cultural narrative that we're all swimming in, is like, Yeah, you've got to love yourself otherwise no one else will love you. That's basically the point. It's like, love yourself with the aim of someone else loving you.

But don't you think, Jesse, that we're always telling people that self love is the most important thing for their mental health and their stability. And yet at the same time, we tell people, women in particular, that they are incomplete unless they have a partner. Right, That's the cultural narrative that we're all swimming in, is like, Yeah, you've got to love yourself otherwise no one else will love you. That's basically the point. It's like, love yourself with the aim of someone else loving you.

But that roma's always been the wrong word.

But that roma's always been the wrong word.

But that intense focus on romantic love being the only true way to happiness is just disproven all the time. Yeah, what about you? Are you going to do it? How do you feel about it when you see these women? Do you feel go girly? Like? What's your vibe about it?

But that intense focus on romantic love being the only true way to happiness is just disproven all the time. Yeah, what about you? Are you going to do it? How do you feel about it when you see these women? Do you feel go girly? Like? What's your vibe about it?

For me, it reminds me of whenever I want to plan a birthday party for myself, because I always feel like such a dick. It's about getting people together who are like, these people love me, surely they want to celebrate me. Come to my dinner, but also pay for your dinner and get me a present, and like, just celebrate the love that you have for me.

For me, it reminds me of whenever I want to plan a birthday party for myself, because I always feel like such a dick. It's about getting people together who are like, these people love me, surely they want to celebrate me. Come to my dinner, but also pay for your dinner and get me a present, and like, just celebrate the love that you have for me.

And it's like asking people to.

And it's like asking people to.

Do something that seems so weird, whereas like if it's a wedding and it's celebrating partnership, or if you have a partner and they host the birthday party for you, it's different.

Do something that seems so weird, whereas like if it's a wedding and it's celebrating partnership, or if you have a partner and they host the birthday party for you, it's different.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

I hosted a birthday party for someone else at my house this weekend, and I really enjoyed it. And then I kind of went, oh, my birthday's coming up, like I should do something, And I thought I felt really icked out by the idea of having people over to my house for my own birthday. But then a part of me is like, if you want to celebrate yourself or you want to get together with a bunch of people, then there are lots of ways to do that. There's something about the marriage to myself that makes me feel. When you first said in your introduction, m about it being like a pr consultant, I was like, yeah, of course, pr Consultant's just a stunt, Like it's a stunt that's meant to make us all go were like, and there is this moral panic about single women.

I hosted a birthday party for someone else at my house this weekend, and I really enjoyed it. And then I kind of went, oh, my birthday's coming up, like I should do something, And I thought I felt really icked out by the idea of having people over to my house for my own birthday. But then a part of me is like, if you want to celebrate yourself or you want to get together with a bunch of people, then there are lots of ways to do that. There's something about the marriage to myself that makes me feel. When you first said in your introduction, m about it being like a pr consultant, I was like, yeah, of course, pr Consultant's just a stunt, Like it's a stunt that's meant to make us all go were like, and there is this moral panic about single women.

Enoughness, Like imagine that that woman feels like she's enough on her own, Like how terrifying would that be?

Enoughness, Like imagine that that woman feels like she's enough on her own, Like how terrifying would that be?

Yeah, true, true.

Yeah, true, true.

I just find the the worship of the self, and I worry about that. I imagine one person at the altar and they're like, I love you because blah blah blah blah blah, and then they run around the other side and they're like, I love you because blah blah blah blah blah, and then they kiss themselves.

I just find the the worship of the self, and I worry about that. I imagine one person at the altar and they're like, I love you because blah blah blah blah blah, and then they run around the other side and they're like, I love you because blah blah blah blah blah, and then they kiss themselves.

And then I just feel like that's apocalyptic.

And then I just feel like that's apocalyptic.

Would be interesting to know what the wedding vows are, Like I'll let you guys know.

Would be interesting to know what the wedding vows are, Like I'll let you guys know.

Mothery hell out.

Mothery hell out.

Politicians being pushed to answer whether they are secretly planning to make terminating a pregnancy illegal, a heated staush about exactly how many weeks is the acceptable number of weeks to have an abortion, a university walk out over a pro life graduation speech, and one of the most prominent politicians in the country calling termination after the first trimester infanticide. If you think I'm talking about the United States right now and American politics in particular, you'd be wrong. These are all things that happened in Australia this week and this is all adding up to a political push to get a woman's right to choose into our voting booths. But why and how Here's a very top line overview, because this is quite complicated. So for context, there's a big state election happening in Queensland this weekend. High Queenslanders, I'm sure you're very very aware of it. It's largely expected that the Labor government is going to be overturned by the Coalition in a bit of a landslide after nine years in power. The reason that abortion has popped up as an issue in that election is that Robbie Catter, who is the leader of the Cara Australia Party and Bob Katter's Sun and that party does have some sway in Queensland it has three seats i think, which represent a geographically big part of the state, says that he would immediately introduce a private member's bill to wind back abortion access in the state, something that if a conscience vote was allowed on the matter could actually happen. The Liberal leader, though, the guy who's going to be the premiere if everything goes the way that people think it's going to go, is a guy called David Chris A. Fooley, and he has had to spend the whole week being asked about this and denying it and saying it's not going to be the case. But it hasn't stopped the speculation, not helped by the fact that one of his candidates, Freya Ostapovich, has been recorded telling voters I am on the record, I am pro life. I can't say anything yet because we've got to get elected before we do anything. Meanwhile, in South Australia, a bill was narrowly voted down that would have banned a procedure involved in a very late term abortion. Now it's a very complicated and emotional discussion, this one, because it involves a tiny number of pregnancies that end in a very specific medical way under really egregious circumstances. Those kind of circumstances were spelled out this week on Mamma Mia by a woman called Natasha Williams. She explained how her baby Toby was diagnosed with very severe life limiting conditions at the beginning of her third trimester, and making the decision to undergo the procedure that this band would have outlawed was, Natasha says, the single most difficult thing I have ever done, as it would be for all mothers who are faced with this heartbreaking decision. But I did it because I loved him with every inch of my broken heart. Now, with these very emotive issues bubbling away, we're now at the point where yesterday in Sydney at a Conservative conference, Coalition Senator Jacinto Naberjerra Price said she wanted abortion back on the national agenda and that pregnancies ended after the first trimester are immoral. She used the word infanticide, Jesse, A lot of us are confused about how this is suddenly in all of our headlines here, and it feels like there are some who are keen to make this issue political in Australia in the way that traditionally it just isn't right. Do you think that they'll succeed.

Politicians being pushed to answer whether they are secretly planning to make terminating a pregnancy illegal, a heated staush about exactly how many weeks is the acceptable number of weeks to have an abortion, a university walk out over a pro life graduation speech, and one of the most prominent politicians in the country calling termination after the first trimester infanticide. If you think I'm talking about the United States right now and American politics in particular, you'd be wrong. These are all things that happened in Australia this week and this is all adding up to a political push to get a woman's right to choose into our voting booths. But why and how Here's a very top line overview, because this is quite complicated. So for context, there's a big state election happening in Queensland this weekend. High Queenslanders, I'm sure you're very very aware of it. It's largely expected that the Labor government is going to be overturned by the Coalition in a bit of a landslide after nine years in power. The reason that abortion has popped up as an issue in that election is that Robbie Catter, who is the leader of the Cara Australia Party and Bob Katter's Sun and that party does have some sway in Queensland it has three seats i think, which represent a geographically big part of the state, says that he would immediately introduce a private member's bill to wind back abortion access in the state, something that if a conscience vote was allowed on the matter could actually happen. The Liberal leader, though, the guy who's going to be the premiere if everything goes the way that people think it's going to go, is a guy called David Chris A. Fooley, and he has had to spend the whole week being asked about this and denying it and saying it's not going to be the case. But it hasn't stopped the speculation, not helped by the fact that one of his candidates, Freya Ostapovich, has been recorded telling voters I am on the record, I am pro life. I can't say anything yet because we've got to get elected before we do anything. Meanwhile, in South Australia, a bill was narrowly voted down that would have banned a procedure involved in a very late term abortion. Now it's a very complicated and emotional discussion, this one, because it involves a tiny number of pregnancies that end in a very specific medical way under really egregious circumstances. Those kind of circumstances were spelled out this week on Mamma Mia by a woman called Natasha Williams. She explained how her baby Toby was diagnosed with very severe life limiting conditions at the beginning of her third trimester, and making the decision to undergo the procedure that this band would have outlawed was, Natasha says, the single most difficult thing I have ever done, as it would be for all mothers who are faced with this heartbreaking decision. But I did it because I loved him with every inch of my broken heart. Now, with these very emotive issues bubbling away, we're now at the point where yesterday in Sydney at a Conservative conference, Coalition Senator Jacinto Naberjerra Price said she wanted abortion back on the national agenda and that pregnancies ended after the first trimester are immoral. She used the word infanticide, Jesse, A lot of us are confused about how this is suddenly in all of our headlines here, and it feels like there are some who are keen to make this issue political in Australia in the way that traditionally it just isn't right. Do you think that they'll succeed.

It feels like a political debate that will never be fully settled or fully decided, and I wonder if that's because of how highly emotional it is for all people involved. So it speaks to the definition of human life, who we see a base is belonging to. It's also about faith, people's religious beliefs, and it's about women who have made, in consultation with their doctor the most heartbreaking decision they've ever had to make in their life, and then being told by a politician that it's infanticide. I cannot imagine what that would do to someone. It feels as though it's definitely being used as a political football film.

It feels like a political debate that will never be fully settled or fully decided, and I wonder if that's because of how highly emotional it is for all people involved. So it speaks to the definition of human life, who we see a base is belonging to. It's also about faith, people's religious beliefs, and it's about women who have made, in consultation with their doctor the most heartbreaking decision they've ever had to make in their life, and then being told by a politician that it's infanticide. I cannot imagine what that would do to someone. It feels as though it's definitely being used as a political football film.

We've seen this in the past.

We've seen this in the past.

It comes up and I think everyone looks at each other and goes, aren't we talking about one person here? Like, really, in terms of all the issues that affect Australians, this is such a tiny minority. I was looking at the South Australia example, and I think they were saying that in the last eighteen months it almost didn't impact anyone, Like there was no one where this was actually an issue, and the women who I think Natasha's story was so important because when we're talking about terminating a pregnancy at thirty five weeks, To be completely honest, I think that a lot of people do look at each other and go, wait what, one hundred percent that's very emotional, like the image that that conjures up in your head. If you have ever been pregnant and you know what it is to look at that ultrasound, you're just kind of going, oh, people can snap their fingers, and that's just not what's happening. It's a deliberate misrepresentation. But I've just found the whole thing quite distressing to see it play out, especially because we know that when Roverse Wade has been round back in the US, it's not an exaggeration to say that women have died. There are examples of women who have died because you're privileging that baby's life, and you're going, are you know there are times in which late stage there might be a fetal abnormalady or whatever, but you get to the point where the woman is almost dead, as Harris said recently, before you intervene, and in that way, it's a very sort of big discussion.

It comes up and I think everyone looks at each other and goes, aren't we talking about one person here? Like, really, in terms of all the issues that affect Australians, this is such a tiny minority. I was looking at the South Australia example, and I think they were saying that in the last eighteen months it almost didn't impact anyone, Like there was no one where this was actually an issue, and the women who I think Natasha's story was so important because when we're talking about terminating a pregnancy at thirty five weeks, To be completely honest, I think that a lot of people do look at each other and go, wait what, one hundred percent that's very emotional, like the image that that conjures up in your head. If you have ever been pregnant and you know what it is to look at that ultrasound, you're just kind of going, oh, people can snap their fingers, and that's just not what's happening. It's a deliberate misrepresentation. But I've just found the whole thing quite distressing to see it play out, especially because we know that when Roverse Wade has been round back in the US, it's not an exaggeration to say that women have died. There are examples of women who have died because you're privileging that baby's life, and you're going, are you know there are times in which late stage there might be a fetal abnormalady or whatever, but you get to the point where the woman is almost dead, as Harris said recently, before you intervene, and in that way, it's a very sort of big discussion.

What have you made of it?

What have you made of it?

Him?

Him?

I'm quite concerned because I just see it all over my TikTok. That's where I've skett all my news. Now what do you see there? What's there this week?

I'm quite concerned because I just see it all over my TikTok. That's where I've skett all my news. Now what do you see there? What's there this week?

All this stuff?

All this stuff?

It's the speech at ACU Australian Catholic University of everyone walking out. I don't actually I didn't actually see what the speech was, but I just saw like videos. I think it was students who are filming on their phones of I think like a professor talking about like abortion, and like they were just filming the crowd basically of like an empty seats of everyone walking out. But it was a comment on those videos of people in my generation, especially like younger men, commenting going looks like I'm moving to Queensland, looks like I'm moving to South Australia.

It's the speech at ACU Australian Catholic University of everyone walking out. I don't actually I didn't actually see what the speech was, but I just saw like videos. I think it was students who are filming on their phones of I think like a professor talking about like abortion, and like they were just filming the crowd basically of like an empty seats of everyone walking out. But it was a comment on those videos of people in my generation, especially like younger men, commenting going looks like I'm moving to Queensland, looks like I'm moving to South Australia.

Like it's quite scary.

Like it's quite scary.

Because I always thought it was a generational thing and I've thought once that passes will be fine.

Because I always thought it was a generational thing and I've thought once that passes will be fine.

Jesse, can you explain about the ACU story.

Jesse, can you explain about the ACU story.

Joe de brun is a former union boss and they were giving him an honorary degree and in so doing, he was then delivering the graduation speech at ACU. There's some in New South walest too, but this one was in Melbourne and in this speech, so if you were graduating, you were there. You might be with your parents or a partner or whoever.

Joe de brun is a former union boss and they were giving him an honorary degree and in so doing, he was then delivering the graduation speech at ACU. There's some in New South walest too, but this one was in Melbourne and in this speech, so if you were graduating, you were there. You might be with your parents or a partner or whoever.

And you pay like at least like fifty to one hundred dollars per ticket.

And you pay like at least like fifty to one hundred dollars per ticket.

You pay to be there, right, And so this speech started talking about abortion. It said abortion is a single biggest killer of human beings in the world and referred to it as a tragedy that must be ended. He also spoke critically about IVF and same sex marriage, and what you saw em was like ninety five percent of the auditorium actually got up and left. And I've read reports that said the people most of the people that stayed with their filming, and then apparently there was a tiny portion who gave him a standing ovation.

You pay to be there, right, And so this speech started talking about abortion. It said abortion is a single biggest killer of human beings in the world and referred to it as a tragedy that must be ended. He also spoke critically about IVF and same sex marriage, and what you saw em was like ninety five percent of the auditorium actually got up and left. And I've read reports that said the people most of the people that stayed with their filming, and then apparently there was a tiny portion who gave him a standing ovation.

That's interesting to me, right, because I wasn't surprised, and I admit that I don't know very much about this, which is why I'm throwing to you, my Catholic friend, I am not surprised that a speaker at a Catholic university made those comments.

That's interesting to me, right, because I wasn't surprised, and I admit that I don't know very much about this, which is why I'm throwing to you, my Catholic friend, I am not surprised that a speaker at a Catholic university made those comments.

So it's not a Catholic university, Oh I thought it was.

So it's not a Catholic university, Oh I thought it was.

So it's called Australian Catholic University and it was set up that way, right, It's actually a public university and most of the people that go there are not Catholic. Right, So he didn't understand who his audience was. Part of me is like, did you not understand the brief Basically, you can study kind of religious subjects there.

So it's called Australian Catholic University and it was set up that way, right, It's actually a public university and most of the people that go there are not Catholic. Right, So he didn't understand who his audience was. Part of me is like, did you not understand the brief Basically, you can study kind of religious subjects there.

Both my parents went to.

Both my parents went to.

I have a lot of friends.

I have a lot of friends.

Who went to ASU, and I think a lot of them went there because it's one of the universities that office things that other universities don't. I have two friends who studied nursing there, Yes, and they couldn't believe the speech exactly.

Who went to ASU, and I think a lot of them went there because it's one of the universities that office things that other universities don't. I have two friends who studied nursing there, Yes, and they couldn't believe the speech exactly.

So it says on the website like, you don't need to be Catholic to study with us. Across our university staff and students of all faiths of none, work within the framework of respect for our mission and tradition, commit to the pursuit of knowledge.

So it says on the website like, you don't need to be Catholic to study with us. Across our university staff and students of all faiths of none, work within the framework of respect for our mission and tradition, commit to the pursuit of knowledge.

Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah.

So I totally understand what you're saying, Holly, is that you look at that and did he assume that he was going to have a room full of people.

So I totally understand what you're saying, Holly, is that you look at that and did he assume that he was going to have a room full of people.

Who were religious and agreed on religious grounds.

Who were religious and agreed on religious grounds.

Yeah, it's interesting timing.

Yeah, it's interesting timing.

The thing that's bothering me about this because the thing is in Australia, it's complicated to get stats on abortion because every state has different policies and some of the procedures involved in medical abortion are also procedures used for other things. Right, So it's actually quite hard to get the stats on how many Australian women get abortions, but broadly speaking, all the best data suggests that it has been slowly falling for a while, mostly because contraception is more widely available and more acceptable and all the rest of the things. So it seems that in general abortions are falling. But also since twenty fifteen, you've been able to get what they call medication abortion, which is the abortion pill. In broad terms, you know that you can get from a GP. So abortion is lots of things, right, And what is troubling me about these conversations that are breaking through to the mainstream that are profiling the you know in South Australia and in Queensland people saying late term abortion, late term abortion, infanticide is they're very much echoing the Donald Trump playbook, which is try and frame abortion as murdering babies at the last minute because you want to right. That is literally what they are doing. And they take this issue that is very complex and very broad and can mean anything in its definition from taking a tablet you know, a couple of weeks in that your doctor's prescribed to you to an absolutely devastating procedure like Natasha underwent, and then throwing this blanket of moral question over it. And the truth of it is that in Australia you can get a termination of varying kinds in most states early in a pregnancy relatively easy, safely and cheaply. Right later in the pregnancy you need more medical supervision, more medical sign off, more complication. Those numbers are tiny. So I just want everyone to know that when they're reading these stories about the politicians who are grabbing onto these sort of shocking stats that they want you to listen to, or these shocking stories that they want you to listen to, and throwing around these broad terms about women who are just randomly deciding they don't want to be pregnant anymore, very fear into their pregnancies. It's just not true. It's hijacked something that isn't an issue, like it isn't an issue here. No.

The thing that's bothering me about this because the thing is in Australia, it's complicated to get stats on abortion because every state has different policies and some of the procedures involved in medical abortion are also procedures used for other things. Right, So it's actually quite hard to get the stats on how many Australian women get abortions, but broadly speaking, all the best data suggests that it has been slowly falling for a while, mostly because contraception is more widely available and more acceptable and all the rest of the things. So it seems that in general abortions are falling. But also since twenty fifteen, you've been able to get what they call medication abortion, which is the abortion pill. In broad terms, you know that you can get from a GP. So abortion is lots of things, right, And what is troubling me about these conversations that are breaking through to the mainstream that are profiling the you know in South Australia and in Queensland people saying late term abortion, late term abortion, infanticide is they're very much echoing the Donald Trump playbook, which is try and frame abortion as murdering babies at the last minute because you want to right. That is literally what they are doing. And they take this issue that is very complex and very broad and can mean anything in its definition from taking a tablet you know, a couple of weeks in that your doctor's prescribed to you to an absolutely devastating procedure like Natasha underwent, and then throwing this blanket of moral question over it. And the truth of it is that in Australia you can get a termination of varying kinds in most states early in a pregnancy relatively easy, safely and cheaply. Right later in the pregnancy you need more medical supervision, more medical sign off, more complication. Those numbers are tiny. So I just want everyone to know that when they're reading these stories about the politicians who are grabbing onto these sort of shocking stats that they want you to listen to, or these shocking stories that they want you to listen to, and throwing around these broad terms about women who are just randomly deciding they don't want to be pregnant anymore, very fear into their pregnancies. It's just not true. It's hijacked something that isn't an issue, like it isn't an issue here. No.

And in the case of Natasha, and she said that her son Toby was never going to see, he was never going to walk, he was never going to talk thinking about his quality of life. I mean, that was what was heartbreaking for her, That decision about what happens with Toby. I don't get to have an opinion on that. That is between medical doctors and Natasha. I don't wish to have an opinion on that. That's not something for me to like philosophically debate as a politician. It is one of the most heartbreaking things. That's what happened.

And in the case of Natasha, and she said that her son Toby was never going to see, he was never going to walk, he was never going to talk thinking about his quality of life. I mean, that was what was heartbreaking for her, That decision about what happens with Toby. I don't get to have an opinion on that. That is between medical doctors and Natasha. I don't wish to have an opinion on that. That's not something for me to like philosophically debate as a politician. It is one of the most heartbreaking things. That's what happened.

I absolutely can't bear it when we were watching the vice presidential debate and it got to the abortion segment, because there has to be an abortion segment, you know, and you've got these two guys up there picking case studies out of the air discussing this, and it's just absolutely infuriating that it is being used, as you said, Jesse, as a political football by people who are like, oh, culture issues work for wedge politics. They've worked in America. They get people inflamed about perceived threats to the way that we see things. We've got a very diverse population in Australia, many of whom would have different views on abortion for religious reasons and otherwise, and none of that is threatened.

I absolutely can't bear it when we were watching the vice presidential debate and it got to the abortion segment, because there has to be an abortion segment, you know, and you've got these two guys up there picking case studies out of the air discussing this, and it's just absolutely infuriating that it is being used, as you said, Jesse, as a political football by people who are like, oh, culture issues work for wedge politics. They've worked in America. They get people inflamed about perceived threats to the way that we see things. We've got a very diverse population in Australia, many of whom would have different views on abortion for religious reasons and otherwise, and none of that is threatened.

Because the pro life people I know don't want to project that onto the rest of Australia. There are deeply religious people that I know that they're just like I don't believe in abortion, fine, absolutely fine, but they don't want that enshrined in politics.

Because the pro life people I know don't want to project that onto the rest of Australia. There are deeply religious people that I know that they're just like I don't believe in abortion, fine, absolutely fine, but they don't want that enshrined in politics.

Just dip behind the headlines. I would suggest on this issue.

Just dip behind the headlines. I would suggest on this issue.

What unlimited out Loud access.

What unlimited out Loud access.

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For week.

For week.

Yes, we have been busting to talk about a substack article by Anne Helen Peterson all about women and the complexities of what she terms clean culture. She writes, cleanliness is morally superior, and women should aspire to be morally irreproachable so as to negate the original sin of being a woman. An unclean woman is a bad woman. An untidy house reflective of an undisciplined mind. You can understand this thinking as bullshit and still be subject to it. What inspired this article was data she came across about how women do twice as much housework as men. But the real kicker for her was that this isn't just mothers, and in fact, it's not just in heterosexual households. In fact, the research showed that eighteen year old women, single women are also doing more housework. So the question is why are women just hardwired this way or is it socialized?

Yes, we have been busting to talk about a substack article by Anne Helen Peterson all about women and the complexities of what she terms clean culture. She writes, cleanliness is morally superior, and women should aspire to be morally irreproachable so as to negate the original sin of being a woman. An unclean woman is a bad woman. An untidy house reflective of an undisciplined mind. You can understand this thinking as bullshit and still be subject to it. What inspired this article was data she came across about how women do twice as much housework as men. But the real kicker for her was that this isn't just mothers, and in fact, it's not just in heterosexual households. In fact, the research showed that eighteen year old women, single women are also doing more housework. So the question is why are women just hardwired this way or is it socialized?

I loved this.

I loved this.

Quote from a woman Peterson spoke to. She said, our mums were taught this stuff, and so we grew up only knowing a peaceful house when it was pristine, because otherwise she was cleaning. Now, we can't feel at peace until it's clean, even though there isn't anyone telling us it has to be this way, Holly. The position of evolutionary psychology would probably be that we're hardwired this way. The men hunted, women tended to their space, they clean, they looked after kids. My question is what went wrong with your wiring? And are you ashamed about it?

Quote from a woman Peterson spoke to. She said, our mums were taught this stuff, and so we grew up only knowing a peaceful house when it was pristine, because otherwise she was cleaning. Now, we can't feel at peace until it's clean, even though there isn't anyone telling us it has to be this way, Holly. The position of evolutionary psychology would probably be that we're hardwired this way. The men hunted, women tended to their space, they clean, they looked after kids. My question is what went wrong with your wiring? And are you ashamed about it?

I think I've just been outed as a dirty one, a messy girl. I hate cleaning, hate cleaning all type of clean I hate all housework.

I think I've just been outed as a dirty one, a messy girl. I hate cleaning, hate cleaning all type of clean I hate all housework.

There's not one little bit that you don't mind.

There's not one little bit that you don't mind.

I do it. Don't get me wrong, Like I don't live in a pigsty and we don't have a cleaner, and Brent does some and I do some, and so obviously I do it. But there isn't even a bit of me that enjoys it. I hate it, and so I resent every part of it. So I probably don't do it very well. So but I have definitely internalized the fact that that's the flaw in me, right, because when I sit in the bathroom and I look at the skirting boards and I see that they're dusty, and I see that, you know, the grout between the tiles, and you're like, oh fuck, you know, like all that level of clean I'm just like, I'm disgusting. I'm lazy. It's one of the reason why I don't like having people to my house, not because it's dirty, but I know that people who are clean, like properly clean things, yeah, they'll notice those things. And in fact, this was all validated recently when we went away to Lord how Alan for a week. The other week I had friends come and stay in my house. Lovely, wonderful friends come and look after tuna. I came back, my house was so clean, Like the level of cleanliness, every counter, every edge of you know where the tiles meet the wall. What if you call that bit that's sticky and it always gets a bit grubby. Yeah, yeah, every shelf wiped down, every plant pot, had been lifted up and wiped underneath it. Because my friend Penny's probably listening to this baby it's fine, but she is clean and she loves cleaning, and I know she thinks some shit at it, and I know she comes to my house and goes and.

I do it. Don't get me wrong, Like I don't live in a pigsty and we don't have a cleaner, and Brent does some and I do some, and so obviously I do it. But there isn't even a bit of me that enjoys it. I hate it, and so I resent every part of it. So I probably don't do it very well. So but I have definitely internalized the fact that that's the flaw in me, right, because when I sit in the bathroom and I look at the skirting boards and I see that they're dusty, and I see that, you know, the grout between the tiles, and you're like, oh fuck, you know, like all that level of clean I'm just like, I'm disgusting. I'm lazy. It's one of the reason why I don't like having people to my house, not because it's dirty, but I know that people who are clean, like properly clean things, yeah, they'll notice those things. And in fact, this was all validated recently when we went away to Lord how Alan for a week. The other week I had friends come and stay in my house. Lovely, wonderful friends come and look after tuna. I came back, my house was so clean, Like the level of cleanliness, every counter, every edge of you know where the tiles meet the wall. What if you call that bit that's sticky and it always gets a bit grubby. Yeah, yeah, every shelf wiped down, every plant pot, had been lifted up and wiped underneath it. Because my friend Penny's probably listening to this baby it's fine, but she is clean and she loves cleaning, and I know she thinks some shit at it, and I know she comes to my house and goes and.

So she no, she might have just tried to clearrapeutic.

So she no, she might have just tried to clearrapeutic.

Yeah, and it was lovely for me to walk back into a spotless house. Like I'm not going to say it wasn't. There's a bit of me that thinks, why am I like this wig? Because I think it's like it is hardwired into me somewhere, that there's something wrong with me because I don't like cleaning?

Yeah, and it was lovely for me to walk back into a spotless house. Like I'm not going to say it wasn't. There's a bit of me that thinks, why am I like this wig? Because I think it's like it is hardwired into me somewhere, that there's something wrong with me because I don't like cleaning?

And am you alone? So this is kind of talking. This whole article is sort of about why women who even live alone are doing more housework.

And am you alone? So this is kind of talking. This whole article is sort of about why women who even live alone are doing more housework.

There's no point.

There's no point.

Yeah, I was wondering why it said women who are single also do more. I'm like more than what's like more than no one more.

Yeah, I was wondering why it said women who are single also do more. I'm like more than what's like more than no one more.

And also more than in the past. It's one of the other things she says is that this isn't shifted with women working more.

And also more than in the past. It's one of the other things she says is that this isn't shifted with women working more.

So I think I'm the opposite of you whole. Whereas I don't like cleaning, I like tidying, Like I like things to look tidy. But if I want to clean, I have to invite someone over, because that's the only reason why I would clean.

So I think I'm the opposite of you whole. Whereas I don't like cleaning, I like tidying, Like I like things to look tidy. But if I want to clean, I have to invite someone over, because that's the only reason why I would clean.

And do you resent the cleaning or do you actually quite enjoy the cleaning?

And do you resent the cleaning or do you actually quite enjoy the cleaning?

I enjoy it looking clean, like I enjoy pretending to be clean, but not actually cleaning. Like I don't think I've cleaned my shower in like two months, because like you don't really see it.

I enjoy it looking clean, like I enjoy pretending to be clean, but not actually cleaning. Like I don't think I've cleaned my shower in like two months, because like you don't really see it.

I just closed the door.

I just closed the door.

That's so true.

That's so true.

So I don't like the look of things being dirty, so I just don't look at it.

So I don't like the look of things being dirty, so I just don't look at it.

And how about like just during the week, Like if someone came to your house on a Wednesday night, is your washing done? Is your bed made or your flaws vacuumed?

And how about like just during the week, Like if someone came to your house on a Wednesday night, is your washing done? Is your bed made or your flaws vacuumed?

Bed's made?

Bed's made?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Washing and floors no, So anything they can see will be looking clean. I'll trick them looking clean. And I think I need to trick myself into thinking it's clean as well. Doing the actual act of like deep cleaning is not for me.

Washing and floors no, So anything they can see will be looking clean. I'll trick them looking clean. And I think I need to trick myself into thinking it's clean as well. Doing the actual act of like deep cleaning is not for me.

What about you, Jesse?

What about you, Jesse?

See, I wondered because I thought I enjoyed cleaning, And in very specific context, I have days now where I'm I'm at home with Luna, and let's say she goes down for a nap. Having an hour to clean almost feels like a privilege. It feels like a little luxury that I quite enjoy right, And I enjoy it because in that hour I don't have anything else to do.

See, I wondered because I thought I enjoyed cleaning, And in very specific context, I have days now where I'm I'm at home with Luna, and let's say she goes down for a nap. Having an hour to clean almost feels like a privilege. It feels like a little luxury that I quite enjoy right, And I enjoy it because in that hour I don't have anything else to do.

I can put on a podcast, but you can scroll on TikTok.

I can put on a podcast, but you can scroll on TikTok.

I feel weird during the day, like it would make me feel lazy.

I feel weird during the day, like it would make me feel lazy.

I feel weird about it, right.

I feel weird about it, right.

What I like that's under the cover of darkness, Yes, exactly.

What I like that's under the cover of darkness, Yes, exactly.

But then I was like, do I like cleaning or do I like the experience of the house being clean, which is a different thing. And then I thought about the drudgery of the everyday stuff right, Like the job I hate the most is wiping down our high chair. That kills me. I've looked at that and been like, but I don't want to and I have to do it.

But then I was like, do I like cleaning or do I like the experience of the house being clean, which is a different thing. And then I thought about the drudgery of the everyday stuff right, Like the job I hate the most is wiping down our high chair. That kills me. I've looked at that and been like, but I don't want to and I have to do it.

And your daughter is at a very messy age, yeah, because she's up and about and into everything, and she's eating messily and all the rest of it. So there's a lot of goo and slop and mess and things not in their place.

And your daughter is at a very messy age, yeah, because she's up and about and into everything, and she's eating messily and all the rest of it. So there's a lot of goo and slop and mess and things not in their place.

That's not satisfying, you know.

That's not satisfying, you know.

What's satisfying is, like I don't mind a vacuum, a mop, put on a candle. Oh, Like, I just feel like I've got my life together, But there's nothing satisfying about wiping down a high chair. I don't like having people in my house either, Holly, and I think it's for that reason. There's like a privacy thing. And then I thought about how women have internalized. I think it's to do with periods and all that kind of stuff discussed, Like we have this real visceral sense of disgust and being messy feels like people would think I am disgusting like that, they would think I am dirty that they would walk into my house and they'd go, this is messy.

What's satisfying is, like I don't mind a vacuum, a mop, put on a candle. Oh, Like, I just feel like I've got my life together, But there's nothing satisfying about wiping down a high chair. I don't like having people in my house either, Holly, and I think it's for that reason. There's like a privacy thing. And then I thought about how women have internalized. I think it's to do with periods and all that kind of stuff discussed, Like we have this real visceral sense of disgust and being messy feels like people would think I am disgusting like that, they would think I am dirty that they would walk into my house and they'd go, this is messy.

She is dirty.

She is dirty.

And then like evesorganized and lazy. Yeah, that's what I think.

And then like evesorganized and lazy. Yeah, that's what I think.

Or like let's say the fridge isn't clean, so something smells in the fridge, and then the bad smell is like you being disgusting. And then even a bathroom, like men don't have as much shame about their bodily functions as women. They just don't, So a bathroom being pristine doesn't have the same like moral value for a woman. It's like even having the chunk of toothpaste or having the like you.

Or like let's say the fridge isn't clean, so something smells in the fridge, and then the bad smell is like you being disgusting. And then even a bathroom, like men don't have as much shame about their bodily functions as women. They just don't, So a bathroom being pristine doesn't have the same like moral value for a woman. It's like even having the chunk of toothpaste or having the like you.

Know, it's very different.

Know, it's very different.

This is the thing, is that the problem with cleaning as self care, which is kind of being sold to us a bit. I think this idea, and I know that I know and love people who do love cleaning, and it's there, you know, how you have that period on then when you're clean, right, same in our house that the house gets cleaned on a Saturday. Broadly speaking, kids have a job, we're doing something. Whatever the thing is about, it is the minute I've done the bathroom and you've wiped down the sink from all the toothpaste spills, and you've scrubbed the toilet and you've done all that. Half an hour later, one of the children has been in there or one of them been in there, and it's dirty again. It's never finished, like the perfection of a clean home, unless you do have you know, full time staff or literally you spend your day doing it is never over, so it's never sort of done. And I know that there are a lot of people who do find that meditative and satisfying, taking something grubby and making it fresh. But it's one of those things that society's agreed we should all like. And I think that's convenient, isn't it that we've decided that all women should like that because it's something that someone has to do or we're literally all going to get sick and die, Like if you never clean your bathroom, someone's getting gastro But apparently I have to enjoy that. But it's something I want to do with the podcast and a candle. It's like, I fucking don't I like gardening, as you know, and I like cooking, so I like cooking a meal. Yeah, but I missed the domestic chip that was like, oh, folding washing house satisfying.

This is the thing, is that the problem with cleaning as self care, which is kind of being sold to us a bit. I think this idea, and I know that I know and love people who do love cleaning, and it's there, you know, how you have that period on then when you're clean, right, same in our house that the house gets cleaned on a Saturday. Broadly speaking, kids have a job, we're doing something. Whatever the thing is about, it is the minute I've done the bathroom and you've wiped down the sink from all the toothpaste spills, and you've scrubbed the toilet and you've done all that. Half an hour later, one of the children has been in there or one of them been in there, and it's dirty again. It's never finished, like the perfection of a clean home, unless you do have you know, full time staff or literally you spend your day doing it is never over, so it's never sort of done. And I know that there are a lot of people who do find that meditative and satisfying, taking something grubby and making it fresh. But it's one of those things that society's agreed we should all like. And I think that's convenient, isn't it that we've decided that all women should like that because it's something that someone has to do or we're literally all going to get sick and die, Like if you never clean your bathroom, someone's getting gastro But apparently I have to enjoy that. But it's something I want to do with the podcast and a candle. It's like, I fucking don't I like gardening, as you know, and I like cooking, so I like cooking a meal. Yeah, but I missed the domestic chip that was like, oh, folding washing house satisfying.

You know what?

You know what?

Folding washing is my least favorite thing in the world. And very often on Sunday there will be a mountain of clean washing in our house as big as the house. And recently I went round to a friend's house who has this beautiful house and a beautiful renovation on the house and everything, and I was like, she so got it together right, but she's got a laundry, a big, fancy laundry. She hadn't closed the laundry door and I got a peek inside. It was up to the ceiling with messy, clean clothes, and I was like, this is what I want to see. I want to see this on Instagram. I want to see this everywhere, Like I didn't have time to fold my washing, and you know what, it doesn't mean I'm having a mental breakdown.

Folding washing is my least favorite thing in the world. And very often on Sunday there will be a mountain of clean washing in our house as big as the house. And recently I went round to a friend's house who has this beautiful house and a beautiful renovation on the house and everything, and I was like, she so got it together right, but she's got a laundry, a big, fancy laundry. She hadn't closed the laundry door and I got a peek inside. It was up to the ceiling with messy, clean clothes, and I was like, this is what I want to see. I want to see this on Instagram. I want to see this everywhere, Like I didn't have time to fold my washing, and you know what, it doesn't mean I'm having a mental breakdown.

I reckon too.

I reckon too.

There was something in this article that mentioned a class element, and I think this is very true. So I my was so tidy, like those beds where I remember she would like tuck me in at night and I couldn't breathe, like you know those She just knew how to properly make a bed.

There was something in this article that mentioned a class element, and I think this is very true. So I my was so tidy, like those beds where I remember she would like tuck me in at night and I couldn't breathe, like you know those She just knew how to properly make a bed.

And she was always.